The Massive Ark on the Moon (very OT, but of high interest)

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Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 29, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
The Massive Ark on the backside of the Moon . . .

Imaged by many official NASA Apollo Missions and some that are "Unofficial" . . .



From the official Apollo 15 image index and 2 images taken by apollo 15 . . . The coordinates of the massive ship are known.



From Photogrammetry using "Google Moon" we can determine the exact lat./long. coordinates of the massive ship and the diameter of "Isaac D" Craters (2 overlapping craters near the ship). Note, "Google Moon" hides the ship in low-resolution imagery and pixelation:




With this information we can then plot the diameter of "Isaac D" Craters onto the panoramic images taken during Apollo 15 for accurate scale to determine the actual size of the massive ship. It is bigger than I originally thought . . .




Well, how big is it? Here is an idea to its size compared to NY City . . .




What is it? And who made this massive craft? My hypothesis is, I think it is from Intra-terrestrials, Nephalim, from Man's hidden past. You have to read your Bible, the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Enoch to understand this hidden history. Fallen Angels mated with beautiful Earthly women, and had off-spring called Nephalim. They were big, strong, very intelligent and were the combination of the worst of the Fallen Angels, and the worst of Mankind. They were a hybrid species that wasn't supposed to be. The Bible has a lot to say about the Giants, the Nephalim. It is why GOD had to wipe them all out with a massive global flood. But the Bible also says they continued to live on after the flood. Not all of them were destroyed. Could it be that they also built an Ark and escaped off World? They had the intelligence of Angels, the Fallen Angels, whom by the way taught man all kinds of forbidden knowledge, such as War. The Book of Enoch goes into all of this in detail . . .




Here are great resources. I'll put up the clickable links later when I have more time.




Luca's new book regarding everything concerning Apollo 20. I haven't read it yet, but know the story very well. He has put in new information into the book not available on his website. Looks like a good read . . .










No matter what you think about all of this, NASA could easily confirm it or refute it if they just release all the high-resolution LRO imagery that they now are bound to have. They probably have enough imagery now of this site in very high resolution to view the craft from multiple 3D perspectives.

NASA needs to release all the LRO imagery they have taken. This imagery database is ours. We paid for it with our tax dollars. NASA should release all of it through a searchable Lat./Long. on-line database. We need to do this.

If NASA can do the following with all the Apollo landing sites, and they can, including finding Soviet Moon-rovers, then they can easily do so with this site supposively explored by Apollo 20 on the backside of the Moon.





No matter how you feel about this knowledge, this evidence, you have to admit it is pretty interesting, no matter whether you believe it or not. Once again, NASA can say "Yea" or "Nay" with the snap of their fingers. Why don't they?






Edit:

Adding the links here also . . .

Apollo 20 Resources:

Retiredafb at Revver.com
http://www.revver.com/u/retiredafb/

Moonwalker1966delta at Youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta

Angelismarriti – Homepage
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/home-ENG.htm

Angelismarrti – Article: Apollo 20 – Light and Shadow
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/apollo20-lightsandhadows.htm

Angelismarrti – Book: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/books.htm

Lulu.com – Book Publisher: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/apollo-20-the-disclosure/6383187

Ramistrip.com – Homepage
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/000%20home01.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Ship Size
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20Ship%20size.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Best Image
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/best%20image.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Flight Path
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052flight.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Image Reconstruction Steps
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20reconstruction%20steps.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 article by Alexander Bar-Elan
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/880aba.html

Youtube Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rrmmii

Really good compiled videos by Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded#!

The Best: Alien Spaceship On The Moon - Apollo 20 Sleepwalk
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/1233/Alien_Spaceship_on_the_Moon___Apollo_20_Sleepwalk/






I think the most credible videos posted by RetiredAFB are:

http://www.revver.com/video/624310/apollo-15-and-17-search-for-the-spaceship/

http://www.revver.com/video/624328/one-of-nasa-attempt-to-hide-alien-spacecraft/

http://www.revver.com/video/624322/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-stills-from-apollo-20/

http://www.revver.com/video/642281/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-flyover-before-landing-apollo-20/


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
This should be entertaining...

"Paging Mt Potay. Mr Potay to the front desk!"
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
I'll put up the clickable links later when I have more time.
Don't bother.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
Oh.

My.

God.

Is there any conspiracy that Klimmer DOESN'T believe?
Is there any science that Klimmer DOES believe?


brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
Wow......you are a full on nutball.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
WAIT!

THAT must be Noah's Ark!!!

Prezwoodz

climber
Anchorage
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
I firmly believe that first shot is a fake. It looks obvious to me.

Oh any linking it immediately to religion? Pretty much threw it off for me right there if I had any coherent scientific thought.
climbinginchico

Trad climber
Modesto, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
You could go weld on the alien spaceship!

Yeah!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
Dude...c'mon.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
It looks like a giant turd to me....

Edit: Whats up with that image of Manhattan....The buildings and bridges are not in their correct places...and is that an image of Toronto on the left?
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 29, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Hey, you posted this 28 days too late!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST? Is it not OK to think and speculate? Wonder? Ponder? Ask questions?

Wow, we do it all the time in Science Fiction, and yet in the Sci-Fi World we have seen specualation and fore-thought come to fruition, and become our reality.

Sheeple, step outside the safety of your confined cubicles and boxes within your narrow limited minds.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:02pm PT
Thank you, Morpheus.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
Steve L

Gym climber
SUR
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
Whales live (and die) there too.

MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
I just wanted to post on this historical thread.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Yes, and I suppose the best and brightest, many of our Apollo Astronauts and Shuttle and ISS Astronauts who have witnessed and have publically spoken regarding the UFOs that they have seen and that are under the control of intelligent life, these same astronauts are also delusional and crazy?

So we send crazy and delusional people to space? How do we manage that? How is that working out for us?


Why is it that the French, UK, Canadian, Mexican, and the Russian Governments are so much more willing to disclose the UFO and Alien presence, even producing on-line official government web-sites where you can read the historical accounts of sightings, yet NASA and our US Government are mute on the subject?

Truth happens.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
The Taco's Conspiracy Minister doesn't let up. Does he?

Don't forget: He purports to be a science teacher, too. But I don't believe it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
I'll post the links in intelligent order that makes sense later today, after school when I'm at home. Don't have time to look them up now.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
Dingus, don't pick on her. She was a victim of love.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
HFCS,

Don't you know High Fructose Corn Syrup is bad for everyone? It is one of the leading causes now in our diets linked to obescity and many other serious health issues. Why would you choose that as on-line name?

Teaching Credentials are available on-line. They are public. You can look it up. Answer your own questions.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
But does it cause bad welding?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
Don't you know High Fructose Corn Syrup is bad for everyone? It is one of the leading causes now in our diets linked to obescity and many other serious health issues. Why would you choose that as on-line name?

I thought GOD made people fat.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
Actually Pate, Klimmer (aka Glenn Simpson) does consider himself to be among the best and brightest as he is among the top 33 physcists in the world battling the 6 or 7 evil government experts regarding 9/11.

Says so right here so it must be true:

Glenn Simpson (BA Physical Geography, HS Physics and Earth Science Teacher)

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=9635890&blogId=282438026

Not surprising at all that his expertise in analyzing grainy 9/11 youtube videos would extend to grainy moon shots as well.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Apr 29, 2010 - 02:59pm PT



I'd tell you to use Occam's Razor, but they probably don't let you near anything sharp in your institution.



brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
Klimmer you should teach an online course or perhaps a college class on this. I am so in to this stuff, I believe everything that you are saying here 100%.

The ONLY, and I mean THE ONLY explanation for those photos are giant half human, half angel demons that escaped god's wrath and went to the moon in a spaceship they built thousands of years ago.

Why can't you people here understand that?
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:05pm PT

Where's Locker when yah need'm?
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
I've got this strange feeling....

That he moonlights as a certified toprope instructor/guide at Devils Lake.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
Trundle- You beat me to it!!

Paging LOCKER.
re: Glenn Simpson...



P.S. If one has a B.A. in physical geography, he's called a physicist? Hmm...
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
Klimmer, thanks for the heads up, I'd seen it before, although your images look more enhanced for better viewing.

Ignore those who belittle you on this, it could be true. Or not. The truth will be out eventually. My great great grandfather once told me that man could never land a craft on the moon. He was positive on this. He was born when the civil war was still raging in Kentucky, and lived to hear Kennedy's pronouncement of the landing. 3 years after he passed on, Neil Armstrong stepped onto the dust.....
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
If true, what then?
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
I didn't see anything except the first CG photo.
Edit: Which looks like the mother ship in Aliens.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
I'll take over Locker's cheesy photo-shop job for a second.

MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
If this is the dude that is the teacher in this link, he's got problems far beyond fake moon landings and 911 truthers:

http://www.ratemyteachers.com/glenn-simpson/107234-t

If you ask him about paragliding or Yes you will pass the class though! LOL!
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
I travel there every month during my full moon meditation and I have never seen it. I will look again tonight.
Dick_Lugar

Trad climber
Indiana (the other Mideast)
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
The proposed spaceship looks like a giant alien turd to these untrained eyes...
Jingy

Social climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
looks more like a half smoked doooby...

but that might just be me....
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Meatbomb- That's an interesting site. Quite informative.

http://www.ratemyteachers.com/patrick-henry-high-school/3484-s/3
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
LOL!!

http://henry.sandi.net/staff_directory/staff_info.php?id=84
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:16pm PT
Ah, he seems like an alright dude.

http://henry.sandi.net/staff/gsimpson/root/aboutteach.html

It's America. And he's OUR "conspiracy minister", that's all.
Welcome, Glenn!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
It is the same with all the conspiracy theories. If true then so what? Talk about it some more? Until there is a grassroots coming together of many like-minded people who are willing to act instead of talk nothing will change.
I have sat in on many of the Birds' immigration rants and when I could get a word in edge-wise I said the same thing. Let me know when the talking part is done.

Edit: That line also works when someone is threatening to kick my ass. Feel free to use it if you like.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Pate, You are pretty funny.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
here ya go Pate:

MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
outed and 'shopped! wow, that was fast.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
Now you've done it, he's going to nuke this thread!
Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
Yep: Definately something there. On closer inspection: I don't think it is a spaceship, or a giant turd.

Obviously: (duh) it is another giant Idaho Spud!

I will leave how it got there up to Klimmer and Pate.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
Some people just WANT to believe. It can give meaning to their life.

Klimmmer, I read your bio that was posted earlier. I'm a grad student at SDSU and work for the rockwall at the ARC. Come in sometime and well climb. I disagree with your theories but Im always down to climb.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
I just can't wait till Klimmer actually comes back and sees what he's started.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Rok wrote-
And HFCS has been rapidly becoming one of the more bigmouth of the bullies, ordering us into his world of personal politics as though there were no other views possible.

What?! (1) How are we defining "bully" now?! (2) Who is "us," have we ever exchanged before today? No.

Oh man, how times are changing.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:46pm PT

Have Faye adjust your meds Lance. You are becoming unhinged.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Apr 29, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
If true, what then?--James Doty


Let's use the Kennedy Assassination for an example:

The majority of Americans are convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald acted as the lone gunman. So much has come out to prove this otherwise it is mind-boggling, and NOT just a made-up theory.

People are so programmed by their egos that when the truth is revealed--NOTHING happens!




OUR EGOS HAVE REPLACED THE QUEST FOR TRUTH--WE KNOW WHAT "WE" KNOW AND NOTHING ELSE.




...sad shite for humanity if you ask me.






Klimmer, take a road trip to Montana someday--I'd love to hang out and climb with you and leave our egos behind.

James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
Rok,
I definitely agree about past history and our future. I do not believe that all of past cultures were superstitious, particularly the Chinese. I live and practice today, methods that date back thousands of years in Chinese history that absolutely work. Meditation, chi kung, etc. The moon meditation I mentioned upthread is an actual practice developed by the Taoists to utilize the energy of the moon that everyone feels to one degree or another. I was joking about going to the moon to match the thread topic. The actual method involves drawing the energy into yourself. It aids in lucid dreaming, dream control and developing precognition. I know, I sound nuts. Just trying to take some heat off of Klimmer:)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
I'm fairly sure that they keep wolves in the ark on the far side of the moon, and periodically release them in Rocky's backyard.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures. I find his conspiracy threads to be as funny as anyone else, but what happens on Supertopo should stay on Supertopo.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
"There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures..."

Agree to a point.

But does this not invite elaboration:
Klimmer wrote-
"Teaching Credentials are available on-line. They are public. You can look it up."

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1156980#msg1156980



Nobody's twisting anybody's arm into having to participate in any of these threads. To my way of thinking, that makes all the difference.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
Maybe Klimmer was trolling. He's certainly got a lot of bites.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
There is no need to post Klimmer's real name or pictures. I find his conspiracy threads to be as funny as anyone else, but what happens on Supertopo should stay on Supertopo.

Totally agree.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
He's hardly a shrinking violet. If he can't stand the heat, he shouldn't post up inflammatory subjects (conspiracies, religious stuff, of all things) on a public forum. He trolls like all the rest of us.

Braun- You're still pissed off for the scientific whipping you got on the other thread. Yeah, I know... "mental speculations..."


What's more: Nobody "bullied" Klimmer, either. Re-read the thread if you have to.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
Klimmer has posted his name a number of times. Do a google search on ST. He clearly does not care.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=site%3Asupertopo.com+glenn+simpson&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=site%3Asupertopo.com+glenn+simpson&gs_rfai=&fp=84c7fb41710deb10
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
rj,
I lost a lot there, mostly the ability to tell some stories that I wanted to tell, and in that, most everybody on this site lost out. It bummed me, someday I may put them into a book form, and YOU and others can then PAY me for those stories, for what I was giving away for free.

yeah, there were tears rolling down all ST's cheeks when that happened...

pay you? i say we take up a collection to pay you to STFU!!!

only it would never work....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
What a day! Had a little time to post today while the students are doing State testing, then Senior Portflios after school, then I check back into my mental bubble gum I call SuperTaco and what do I find?

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, MARY, THE MOTHER OF JESUS!!

You guys go too far sometimes. I could nuke the thread. I have thought about it. Yes, there is a lot of info you can look up on a public teacher, but I didn't ask you to post it.

I have nothing to be ashamed of. I play fair. I ask questions of interest that I think we would all like to know the answer too. I try not to attack anyone. I try to live by The Golden Rule. You can go back and edit what you have done.


I will respond later. Right now I think I'm gonna go home, and have a drink.


I need a vacation. I need my happy place.




High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
Klimmer wrote-
"...there is a lot of info you can look up on a public teacher, but I didn't ask you to post it."
No worries. Not from me. "What happens on the Taco stays on the Taco."

I agree.

Klimmer wrote-
"I ask questions of interest that I think we would all like to know the answer too. I try not to attack anyone. I try to live by The Golden Rule. You can go back and edit what you have done."

And here's my piece from this thread's sibling thread (which you decided to leave to go start your very own, you can check the timestamps):
"From another perspective, decision making (arguably the premiere feature of our species) leads to making decisions and taking stances. After much study, I decided long ago I would not be "agnostic" concerning the Gods of ancient Egypt or the Gods of ancient Greece or the Gods of the Ancient Mesopotamia (which includes God Jehovah, aka God of Moses, aka God of modern Christians and Muslims and Jews). -Anymore than I am "agnostic" about the Gulf of Tonkin incident. -Anymore than I am agnostic (i.e., without knowledge, unknowing) about a camalot's mechanical advantage or a granite rock's coefficient of friction."

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1155248&msg=1156077#msg1156077


You put forth a lot of whacky stuff. It's my right to exercise my decision-making power, to make decisions and to take stances against your whacky ideas and stuff. All the more important in modern democracies of which public forums are a part.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
your happy place isnt on the backside of some ladies moon is it???

on a serious note if someone wonders why our kids dont persue math and science just read your reviews, or your conspiracy theories...
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 29, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
One last post before I go home . . .

"RateMyTeacher.com"

Haven't looked at that site for many years.

Yea, teach the students the full curriculum. Make it interesting, exciting, fun. Do lots of great labs that are directly relevant to the topic. Make them work. Make them learn. Hold them accountable. And the students who don't do well, don't do what is assigned, don't study, disrupt class, do poorly, don't end up with the grade they think they should have gotten (hey, you have to earn and work for your grade, its in the numbers no manipulation allowed) then jump on said site and post up their review. They used to block the site from all SDUSD computers at all schools. What is the point? Some Teenagers will do and say anything. Thankfully, most are really great. But some, some are like posters here on ST.

Many a great teachers are slandered on such sites. It's not unlike SuperTaco.
Ricardo Cabeza

climber
All Over.
Apr 29, 2010 - 08:13pm PT
Honestly, I'd like to hear Werners thoughts on this, beyond;'fuk you'.

Serious, Werner, please expound.
franky

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
what the hell is wrong with you guys. jeebus. get back on topic, aliens on the moon... GO!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
NASA just released this picture.

James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
Wow, NASA finally comes clean!
Edit: And they seem very friendly up there.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
RokJox, I think I speak for the masses here:

GET LOST

You go round and round and round, and it's so boring.

You annoying little sh#t.

mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
I think I speak for the masses:


YOU LITTLE OL' LADIES BICKERING HERE OFF TOPIC NEED TO GO TO A BINGO HALL OR SHUFFLEBOARD COURT AND DEAL WITH IT THERE!
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:51pm PT
I'm no friend. BUt I've known of him for a long time. We're contemporaries you might say.
You've been crying for a long time RokJox, aren't you tired of it?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
This started off as such a nice little entertaining thread.
Can't we all just get along?

Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:06pm PT
My beef? My beef is what a blathering idiot you are and always have been RokJox. No one wanted you around then, and the same stands for today.

That was a tall tale you just told about your offspring there RokJox. You should know better.


bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:07pm PT
I keep hoping for on topic discourse here ....

Hoaxed videos are associated with this tall tail depicting an Asian style pilotess
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
All we ever hear from you RokJox. It's always someone else's fault. Just like a little baby.

Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
There there little baby, mommy's going to make it all right.

But you're still lying, and that will just bring more crying.

You've been crying a long long time RokJox, I know.


My avatar is just to point out what you really are.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
This forum has gotten mean lately, sad to say. Seems like Rokjox's Klimmer's and Fattrads personal lives are now deemed to be fair game.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
I have no idea about the other two RokJox, but I know your track record, and I know that when a person expresses their true feelings about you, well, it's always in retaliation for something you've said or done. Both here in cyberspace and in real life.

dirtbag, you shouldn't be concerned about RokJox. he's never had friends, he's used to it.

Sad
but true




LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
Interesting.

Anyone noticed how it took roughly 10 years to put a man on the moon (I'm dating from (1960ish-1969ish, Apollo Program)

yet...

It's been close to 40 years and we 'still' don't have a base or operations on the moon, yet?

Why is that?

I would think with our advancements in computers, metallurgy, bioagriculture, materials, and improved understanding on physical relativity, we would have something.

Or is something amiss?

Something to ponder and speculate.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
Holy shit!!!! I left to train for a bit and this thread exploded into armageddon?

Where the heck is alien boy Klimmer at?

I want more aliens on the moon.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
Poor RokJox, always so desperate! What posts should I delete? I don't see anything I've done other than to call attention to your lying and crying.

Your successful family! Last I heard you were making your son's life miserable and trashing him all over the internet.

That's all.

It's your party, cry if you want to.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
Focus!

So...prolly a few reasons for WHY we have not gone back after 6-7 Apollo missions.

-Political (Nixon axed funding due to public disapproval)
-Money (Apollo program recieved 4% of the Federal budget, now; NASA recieves less than 1%)
-(Don't Laugh) NASA has forgotten how.

check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxc7YV2QXzA&feature=player_embedded#!

I think this only part of the story.

brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 29, 2010 - 11:44pm PT
The reason we haven't gone back is that the angel/human/alien hybrids are not allowing us to go back.

They will let us go back once they have mined enough dilithium crystals to power their ship that Klimmer is telling us about.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:15am PT
Apollo 20 Resources:

Retiredafb at Revver.com
http://www.revver.com/u/retiredafb/

Moonwalker1966delta at Youtube.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta

Angelismarriti – Homepage
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/home-ENG.htm

Angelismarrti – Article: Apollo 20 – Light and Shadow
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/apollo20-lightsandhadows.htm

Angelismarrti – Book: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/books.htm

Lulu.com – Book Publisher: Apollo 20 the Disclosure
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/apollo-20-the-disclosure/6383187

Ramistrip.com – Homepage
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/000%20home01.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Ship Size
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20Ship%20size.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Best Image
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/best%20image.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Flight Path
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052flight.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 Image Reconstruction Steps
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/052%20reconstruction%20steps.html

Ramistrip.com – Apollo 20 article by Alexander Bar-Elan
http://www.ramistrip.com/000%20web%20pages/880aba.html

Youtube Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rrmmii

Really good compiled videos by Ramistrip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded#!

The Best: Alien Spaceship On The Moon - Apollo 20 Sleepwalk
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/1233/Alien_Spaceship_on_the_Moon___Apollo_20_Sleepwalk/






I think the most credible videos posted by RetiredAFB are:

http://www.revver.com/video/624310/apollo-15-and-17-search-for-the-spaceship/

http://www.revver.com/video/624328/one-of-nasa-attempt-to-hide-alien-spacecraft/

http://www.revver.com/video/624322/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-stills-from-apollo-20/

http://www.revver.com/video/642281/alien-spaceship-on-the-moon-flyover-before-landing-apollo-20/





Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:17am PT
It would be nice for everyone to be civil.

Please talk substance and not personally attack one another.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:34am PT
"We speculate, we guess, we assume... but we do not know."
-Alexander Bar-Elan

My understanding is that the universe is vast, far beyond our human understanding. Based on this, any life form would need to travel thousands of times the speed of light in order to move around the universe.

So my questions is this: why would any life form that advanced have any interest in human affairs? I think the "truth" is that humans are an insignificant spec in the history of our universe. So small that we invent our own delusions about our place in the universe so that we may feel purpose. I doubt any other life forms in this universe have even come 1 million lights years from our planet, if they exist at all.

Klimmer: How do you think these beings achieved light travel?


Here is a great rendering of our universe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 12:35am PT
Rokjox, Werner, and others who have posted positive messages . . .


Thanks :-)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:40am PT
Some of you are reminding me why I like to be alone in the mountains as far as possible from the thoughts and voices of other people.

Speaking as a contractor systems engineer and project manager working at NASA on the Constellation lunar program and International Space Station program; I'll suggest that we have much to learn...

and good manners are the lubrication for civilization; please be more respectful of each other...

and I like Gandhi's reply to reporters asking his opinion of Western civilization: "I think it would be a good idea!"

If you want well researched information on unusual phenomena, check out my lifelong friend Linda Moulton Howe on earthfiles.com...
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:05am PT
Our Universe at Home Within a Larger Universe? So Suggests Physicist's Wormhole Research

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100406172648.htm

Could our universe be located within the interior of a wormhole which itself is part of a black hole that lies within a much larger universe?

Such a scenario in which the universe is born from inside a wormhole (also called an Einstein-Rosen Bridge) is suggested in a paper from Indiana University theoretical physicist Nikodem Poplawski in Physics Letters B. The final version of the paper was available online March 29 and will be published in the journal edition April 12.

Poplawski takes advantage of the Euclidean-based coordinate system called isotropic coordinates to describe the gravitational field of a black hole and to model the radial geodesic motion of a massive particle into a black hole.

In studying the radial motion through the event horizon (a black hole's boundary) of two different types of black holes -- Schwarzschild and Einstein-Rosen, both of which are mathematically legitimate solutions of general relativity -- Poplawski admits that only experiment or observation can reveal the motion of a particle falling into an actual black hole. But he also notes that since observers can only see the outside of the black hole, the interior cannot be observed unless an observer enters or resides within.

"This condition would be satisfied if our universe were the interior of a black hole existing in a bigger universe," he said. "Because Einstein's general theory of relativity does not choose a time orientation, if a black hole can form from the gravitational collapse of matter through an event horizon in the future then the reverse process is also possible. Such a process would describe an exploding white hole: matter emerging from an event horizon in the past, like the expanding universe."
A white hole is connected to a black hole by an Einstein-Rosen bridge (wormhole) and is hypothetically the time reversal of a black hole. Poplawski's paper suggests that all astrophysical black holes, not just Schwarzschild and Einstein-Rosen black holes, may have Einstein-Rosen bridges, each with a new universe inside that formed simultaneously with the black hole.
"From that it follows that our universe could have itself formed from inside a black hole existing inside another universe," he said.

By continuing to study the gravitational collapse of a sphere of dust in isotropic coordinates, and by applying the current research to other types of black holes, views where the universe is born from the interior of an Einstein-Rosen black hole could avoid problems seen by scientists with the Big Bang theory and the black hole information loss problem which claims all information about matter is lost as it goes over the event horizon (in turn defying the laws of quantum physics).

This model in isotropic coordinates of the universe as a black hole could explain the origin of cosmic inflation, Poplawski theorizes.

Poplawski is a research associate in the IU Department of Physics. He holds an M.S. and a Ph.D. in physics from Indiana University and a M.S. in astronomy from the University of Warsaw, Poland.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 01:10am PT
Port,

I do have a bias and I will readily admit it.

I come from a Christian Cosmological point of view. But I am willing to look into any educated guess and point of view. Empirical data does matter and it can change my point of view.

For some reason, out of all the massive Universe, Earth is a focus. It is also a focus for the Heavenly Hosts. They care what happens here. There is something about GOD's creation of Man. We were made physical and a little lower than the Angels. But he cares about us. They care about us. Some even went so far to falling in love with man and got to "know" Man in the Biblical sense.

I do not know where Heaven is. It would be very cool to know.

The Good Book says GOD is Light. Perhaps his Heavenly Host can also transform as light and travel at the speed of light throughout the Universe. As light you don't have to deal with the mass going off the scale, nor the enormous amounts of energy that are required to travel at these speeds, as Einstein determined would be the case.

I think they are Intra-Terrestrials and not Extra-Terrestrials. Well, I suppose it can be argued that Angels or Fallen Angels are Extra-Terresrial. But their off-spring with mankind, Nephalim, would be Intra-Terrestrial.

I think it is all about our hidden history, and not a distant intellectual life form travelling from a distant Star or Galaxy to be here, with the exception of Angels who can travel at the speed of light, and are therefore not hampered by such constraints.

Can I prove any of this? No. It is hypothesis, speculation, and faith at this time.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:19am PT
As this seems to be developing into parallel threads, here's a fine bit of art from Frogner Park in Oslo, the famous sculpture garden of Gustav Vigeland. It's called Sinnataggen, which roughly means the shrieking baby.
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:43am PT
I am just fascinated...and tired of popcorn...chocolate anyone?

Just desserts for all!
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:01am PT
Think about it for a moment folks.

This is just an observation on my part:

NASA Space Program & Air Force Space Program

are

2 different programs, yet share 'some' cross-over.

Both program has to disclose budget amount to the public and feds on what, where and how much money is being spent. (There is an exception)

Take this into perspective

NASA's 2010 proposed fiscal budget is $20 billion

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2009/may/HQ_09-102_FY2010Budget.html

That's $18-20 billion a year to run, maintain infrastructure and research new technologies.

That may sound alot.


however


Let's look at the Air Force fiscal budget for 2010:

$160.5 billion for 2010 fiscal

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123148160

That's just to run the infrastructure, people, modernization.

This does include some research funding ($12 billion went to Space research technologies funding), but not all, from what I understand:

We have to include DARPA funding which the unclassified budget for 2010 fiscal year can be seen here (It's about $3 billion a year, has unclassified monies on Space development)

http://www.darpa.mil/Docs/FY2011PresBudget28Jan10%20Final.pdf

and let's not forget Department of Defense unclassified funding of about $80 billion in research (For aerospace/space budget look at line 5 0602201F - line 9 0602601F)

http://comptroller.defense.gov/defbudget/fy2011/fy2011_r1.pdf

This is just some of the unclassfied funding for space and air programs

This does not include undisclosed funds for further research or development! (This is the exception)

So fiscal recap:

Civilian NASA $ vs Military Air Force $$$


Also:

The Air Force Space program (And all defense programs) can utilize private sector as well as public sector research for further development, it's encouraged:

[url="http://https://www.cfda.gov/index?s=program&mode=form&tab=step1&id=2b425843d94185da0e1258f35505a37b"]http://https://www.cfda.gov/index?s=program&mode=form&tab=step1&id=2b425843d94185da0e1258f35505a37b[/url]

NASA is only now being encouraged to expand more into the private sector now (always had a prescence)...but if one looks at the history of the Apollo program...NASA utilized both public AND private sectors to greater degree than now...not unlike the Military.

Last but not least:

-NASA must share all technological discoveries with the public as stated in Space Act of 1958

-The Air Force Space Program does not have too.


So what does this mean?

That means money applied to US Air Force Space research, public AND private sectors means an increased utlization of research, resources & most importantly: increase in technological achievements over NASA. (they loaned $200mil to help out NASA with the last launch)

So what does this have to do with the moon?

Well the moon is fantastic source for Helium-3 for nuclear fusion power and as someone said "He who owns the moon, owns energy = dominant power"

so

I would not be too surprised if we have gone back to the moon (after the Apollo program) to claim stake, establish facilities & mine for H-3 for fuel

I wouldn't be too surprised if the military space research had figured out the prototypes, if not more, on nuclear fusion engine technology.

Think that sounds a little too far fetched?

Check out what Helion technologies & Tri-Alpha (that's just a few out of many) have been up to on nuclear fusion technology recently.


Anyways, apologize for the length of the blurb, these are just my thoughts.


As in terms of aliens on the backside of the moon, could be some grain of truth there, but who knows? ;-)

Cheers







MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:07am PT
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:08am PT
Werner likes to dismissively refer to, "mental speculations!"

I don't think there is anything wrong with speculation, but as I said earlier . . .


I'd tell you to use Occam's Razor, but they probably don't let you near anything sharp in your institution.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 02:09am PT
LMN,

All true. NASA is DoD. You have to read the mission statement and charter of NASA carefully and it spells it out. And DoD has a very deep secret pocket.

The book Dark Mission: the Secret History of NASA goes into detail on this.
http://www.darkmission.net/
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 30, 2010 - 02:17am PT
Eric's photo poetically sums it up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 03:00am PT
Thanks TomCochrane. Good site.


http://www.earthfiles.com/

April 26, 2010 - Physicist Stephen Hawking Says Cosmic
Alien Life Probable and Perhaps Dangerous.

“To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational. The real challenge is to work out what aliens might actually be like. ... If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans.” - Stephen Hawking, Ph.D., Theoretical Physicist and Mathematician


Stephen Hawking: alien life is out there, scientist warns
Stephen Hawking has suggested that aliens almost certainly exist but has warned humanity not to try to contact them.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7631252/Stephen-Hawking-alien-life-is-out-there-scientist-warns.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 30, 2010 - 03:05am PT
Rokjox,

Good stuff. I didn't know about The X-37B Robotic Space Plane. How difficult would it be to design one for manned flight? Not very me thinks.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 03:35am PT
the limiting factor to Space travel is the fraility of the human body.

The human body is a marvel of biological engineering (Nature is just a marvel, the efficiency and natural design)

Let's face it, the human body works well here on Earth (relatively well, user's experience may vary), but it blows in Space. We need oxygen, we can't take more than several G forces before going "splat", our brains cannot handle sensory input at extremely high speed forces, and we need to pee.


So, if one was to travel across space: how so?

Just a speculation:

-Reduction in mass and g-force by cancelling out with negative mass and g-force(a theory, read up on Hermann Bondi's work)

-I think this can be achieved if one was to use inertia damping?

-Move space instead of moving the ship

-Change the state of vaccuum within the vaccuum state to travel faster than light, far fetched, but this is a gut feeling.

-Change the vibratory state of known states, realms, planes, to phase?

-Create a biological self-repairing machine that can handle space, and interdimensional shifts (increased robustness of the sensory system)

-Use said above entities as remote cameras or viewers without risking oneself's frailities

-Understand time does not work the exactly same in space as it does on Earth

-ok that was er fun.







LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 03:54am PT
Using an unmanned craft prolly allows for

-reduction in pilot error
-faster & better response time
-ability to perform maneuvers that could kill a pilot
-Stay in space longer than a human

Usage wise? Who knows.

X-37B looks dated.
Tomcat

Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
Apr 30, 2010 - 06:36am PT
I MUST have one of those shoulder patches showing the Lunar Module and the Command/ Orbiter with presumably nylon (or perhaps Dyneema?)straps around the "Ark",lifting off.

Must I tell you.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Apr 30, 2010 - 10:57am PT
Maybe it's on MT Ararat.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 11:23am PT
http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 11:41am PT
The X-37B is the logical successor to the apparently shuttered 'Aurora' program. Why endanger human lives plus go to the expense of providing potty facilities which we all know was a major oversight on the B-2 program?

From all I've read the X-37 launched successfully and is in orbit and that's all the Air Force is gonna tell us. It could be up there for up to 9 months!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 30, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
Dingus,
Where'd you see that they lost telemetry? Are you sure Klimmer didn't 'jack it to go find his Ark?
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 30, 2010 - 01:09pm PT
Confusing the lost with the HTV-2 glider?

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4601925&c=AME&s=AIR
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 1, 2010 - 12:31am PT
apollo 20 hoax debunked here ...

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=theories&action=display&thread=1000&page=1

the most obvious flaw being you cannot secretly launch a Apollo class Saturn 5 rocket from anywhere in the United States, particularly from Vandenberg eastward over continental United States. The Stage 1 booster lands in Nevada or Arizona on someones head !!
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 1, 2010 - 09:21am PT
Just watched last year's indie sci-fi movie Moon, and thought that was pretty cool.
No massive arks, but the FX are well enough done -- especially when you think about
what they had to show the main characters doing.

Director Duncan Jones says he wanted to make a "grown-up" space film, influenced by
the feel of earlier movies such as Silent Running, Outland, or the first Alien.

I thought he did that pretty well, and also caught some weird spirit of the old Twilight
Zone
scripts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:45am PT
RetiredAFB and the other Moonwalker1966delta, don't they mention the launch of Apollo 19 and Apollo 20 were at night? And Moonwalker1966delta has posted supposed footage of the Apollo 19 (or Apollo 20?) launch, showing that it was indeed at night.

Officially, there was only one night launch in the Apollo program, and that was Apollo 17. HHhhhhhmmmmmm. Perhaps practice for the clandestine night launches to come?

See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Here is Moonwalker166delta site with the launch of Apollo 19:
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta#p/a/u/0/L4kSmezXPNo



All we have to do is match the official night launch footage of Apollo 17 to the night launch footage of Apollo 19 or 20 and see if they are one and the same.

Me thinks, maybe they are not exactly the same, which would then indicate the night launch footage that Moonwalker1966delta has posted is something other than Apollo 17 launching. Perhaps it is Apollo 19 (or maybe footage of Apollo 20). Under the cover of night and late at night, you could even launch now from Vandenberg and no one would know except for the noise. Remember, this was back in the mid 70's. Easy to get away with a lot of stuff with no one looking.

Also the footage of the Astronauts getting into the capsule near the launch time. You do see faces and no insignia on the astronauts. Seems someone could press NASA to exactly identify everyone in the image upon boarding and who exactly are all those technicians? When exactly did this event take place? We want the names and identies of all people in the footage. And we want the exact time and location of where this took place.

It is time for some FOIA requests.



Edit:

Also FOIA requests for all the hi-resolution imagery that no doubt the LRO has now taken of the site and region near 18.5 degrees South, and 117.5 degrees East on the Moon. All of it and from different swaths so that the entire site can be viewed in Hi-Res 3D.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 1, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Even if you had all the evidence to the contrary, you would find some loop whole to justify the conspiracy.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 1, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
clandestine night launches? Do you reckon they used some kind of cloaking device Klimmer?

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Arid-zona
May 1, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
Klimmer is 7 kinds of awesome.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 1, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
You're basing your arguments on grainy youtube videos from sources we know nothing about. I've never heard these names before and Im sure there is more to their background than they let on. They make claims that are so patently unprovable that it brings into questions their objectivity. But thats what allows you to continue making claims like Arcs on the Moon, because none of these hypotheses can be disproven.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 1, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
Just what is it that lays sideways on the ground, yet possesses enough structural integrity to appear to have clearance under it and is about an eighth mile long of free hanging tubular material?
A giant fossilized alien turd?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
Here is official NASA footage from the Apollo 17 launch . . .

Launch of Apollo 17 (TV Feed and NASA Footage). This is the only "official" night launch of an Apollo mission:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmwc8E9fCLI


See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom. It verifies Apollo 17 was the only night launch:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us





Compare and contrast that with the night launch of "Apollo 19" posted by Moonwalker1966delta:
http://www.youtube.com/user/moonwalker1966delta#p/a/u/0/L4kSmezXPNo



Clearly the 2 are very different in so many ways. Assuming nothing is faked:

1) the towers are different color.
2) the towers are different in construction.
3) the markings on these Saturn V rockets are different.
4) the artificial lighting on both rockets is different.


These seem to be different launches. NASA only admits to one official Saturn V night launch and that is with Apollo 17. Obviously there was more than one Saturn V night launch.

The question is why, when only one is admitted to?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 1, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
The question is why, when only one is admitted to?

Simple, they didn't want to pay overtime.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
Remember, substance and not weak minded knee-jerk attacks.

Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 1, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
"See this wiki page and scroll to the bottom. It verifies Apollo 17 was the only night launch:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tVW0JOzNvEgJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V+Were+any+Apollo+rockets+launched+at+night%3F&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us "

The authoritative source is wikipedia?

The problem with wikipedia is virtually anyone can edit wikipedia... Although I'm not implying or inferring any quack or delusional individual would ever publish inaccurate information that may or may not corroborate a conspiracy theory, or alternatively, that any reasonable individual would ever solely base any theory on Wikipedia’s citation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:41pm PT
Another thing to do is to look at every Ingress Room image of the Astronauts loading onto the Apollo Saturn V rockets for each of the missions Apollo 4 - Apollo 17 and identify them, and post them in the order according to the Apollo mission number.

Then carefully compare them to the Ingress Room images and video posted by RetiredAFB of Apollo 20. Do any of the Ingress Room images from any of the public known official Apollo missions match what was posted as Apollo 20?

If they do not, then that is evidence the images are not of Apollo 4 - Apollo 17, but of some "other" unidentified mission.

This would be more evidence in the Apollo 20 camp. Pretty hard to fake Ingress Room images and real video of said event. How does one go about faking something like that without a massive Hollywood budget?

From the youtube video compilation of RetiredAFB original videos by Ramistrip.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZZWDpICa_U&feature=player_embedded



Ingress Room Image from Apollo 10 mission:




Ingress Room Image from Apoll 12 mission:





Ingress Room Images from the Apollo 20 mission. Do any other official NASA Apollo missions exactly match this Ingress Room look, the 3 technicians (one NASA and 2 from Rockwell International) and the 2 Astronauts loading? If not then this is indication that these images and video are not from any official Apollo mission. This would be more evidence in support of Apollo 20:





We also have 3 names:

Commander William Rutledge

Astronaut Leona Marietta Synder

Cosmonaut Alexey Arkhipovich Leonov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Leonov



We also have a Apollo 20 Mission Patch:

Chief

climber
May 1, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
Very interesting post.
Even more interesting responses.

With the advent of digital editing, still images, especially grainy ones from the moon can no longer stand alone as conclusive evidence of anything. Having said that, Klimmer's suggestion is no more outlandish than many shaky theories accepted by humans.

The world is flat.
Mary was impregnated by god and experienced an immaculate conception and virgin birth.
The devil made me do it.
The sinking of the Lusitania was unprovoked.
Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack.
NV patrol boats carried out torpedo attacks on the Maddux in the Tonkin.
Men in caves shut down US air defenses and brought down the Towers with hijacked airplanes.
Tower Seven.
The Iraqi's were building weapons of mass destruction.
Unregulated free market economies are good for us.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
DS,

The fact that Apollo 17 is the only official night time Apollo launch is easily verified or debunked. I looked. Yes, Wikipedia sometimes gives out bad data but it can easily be cross-referenced and verified with other sources.
Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 1, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
Well, if your source is as solid as the bible I'll believe you - Conspiracy!

What is your anticipated course of action? Have you considered limiting your audience, perhaps initially confined to ST for the preservation of your identity and life? These issues are dangerous, and proper protocols must exist to ensure your safety! I've seen the movie Conspiracy Theory and I'm well versed in paranormal activity and small weapons combat (primarily nunchaku and crossbow) . If you are needing a partner or confidant, here is my video application: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQYSTWVeApI
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 1, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
nothing photographic, or video in nature can be considered evidence in the 21st century

you need a body and DNA test results
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 1, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I'm pretty well read. I enjoy a good story. With fiction, be it movies or books, you have to suspend your disbelief.

But for many people, that which allows them to enjoy fiction, is also that which allows them to believe the lies of politicians, conspiracy theories, and religion.

When a narrative makes a claim to truth or factuality you need to suspend your belief.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
bmacd,

Really? Wow, then you know nothing of the intelligence, remote sensing, and scientific world.


From video posted by RetiredAFB:
http://www.revver.com/video/797542/apollo-20-ebe-mona-lisa-tv-unscheduled-transmission/


I think the following image of the Astronaut/Cosmonaut is of Alexey Leonov, and not Cmd William Rutledge of the supposed Apollo 20 mission from within the LM on the surface of the Moon:



Here is an official image of Alexey Leonov near that period of time:



Notice the balding head, the long straight bridge nose, the mouth, and the deep facial lines on either side of the nose outlining the cheeks. I think it is Alexey. And in reduced gravity environments of 1.63m/s^2 acceleration due to the Moon's reduced gravity, compared to 9.8m/s^2 acceleration here on Earth, facial features will distort a little.

It is Alexey or they found a look-alike actor to fake this video.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:21am PT
I will do a thorough facial analysis soon with ratios of both images on Alexey. The ratios of certain facial features of the actual known image of Alexey and the one from Apollo 20 on the surface of the Moon. My hypothesis is that facial ratios will be exactly the same. Identical.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 12:21am PT
OK. Who is retiredAFB? Who are his colleagues? What is his background? Is he objective? What is his reputation? What is his agenda (everyone has one)? A large number of your theories are based in his videos. Have you applied the same criticism to him as you have NASA?

These hypotheses your've presented are outlandish. Any life form would need to travel maybe a million times the speed of light to move through the universe. And that technology is in the form of an Arc? like the one Noah built? Seems unlikely to me

I hope you can understand my skepticism. And Im not saying I cant be convinced. Its just what you provide as "evidence" is highly dubious.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 12:24am PT

I will do a thorough facial analysis soon with ratios of both images on Alexey. The ratios of certain facial features of the actual known image of Alexey and the one from Apollo 20 on the surface of the Moon. My hypothesis is that facial ratios will be exactly the same. Identical.



Duuuuuude . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:32am PT
Proving something massive is there on the Moon is the easy part, if NASA cooperates, proving it's origin is another.

We don't have to prove that to begin with, although if Apollo 20 did indeed happen, then NASA has a major scoop on that info (of course).

Obviously, if something massive is there then it came from somewhere. Yes? I agree that that is hard to fathom. But reality is, regardless of our preconceived limited scientific understandings.

I've already stated my hypothesis regarding its origin.
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
May 2, 2010 - 12:33am PT
"Any life form would need to travel maybe a million times the speed of light to move through the universe."--Port




It would depend on how far away from Earth they started from, if you want to use the technology available to us today.

Your statement's exaggeration shows through as ignorance--not meaning to offend here, just pointing out the weakness in the sentence proffering...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:36am PT
Wanda,

You do realize that facial features and their distances and these ratios are unique identifiers don't you?

Photogrammetry can be done on the human face and it works very well for identification purposes. It's empirical. It's reproduceable. It's science.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 2, 2010 - 01:43am PT
This thread is still going?

Wow.

Rock on!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
May 2, 2010 - 01:47am PT
They are not ready.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 2, 2010 - 01:51am PT
“For it is a land of illusion, a place in the mind, a shimmering mirage of riches and mystery and death. These illusions have distorted its landscape and contorted its history.”

Richard E. Lingenfilter.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:02am PT
When you have pictures of an actual space craft ( not blurry black and white photos or computer renditions) Ill believe. And I did watch the posted videos. They're hardly objective.

I think the real reason you all love this stuff is that it makes you feel smarter and more enlightened than the general public. You don't realize it but you've created your own little science fiction world in which you play a leading role as an investigator. It scares me. Seriously.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:13am PT
mojede, Im not exaggerating. I said Universe, not galaxy or solar system. It would take 13 billion light years to cross our universe. Maybe they are closer, but I doubt it. Theres really no way to know.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 2, 2010 - 02:20am PT
Send toiet paper?
Flush the moon?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 02:20am PT
There's not only an ark on the far side of the Moon, but the Martians love us.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=11874
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:24am PT

People say they see Jesus in this tree. I see tree bark.
Watusi

Social climber
Newport, OR
May 2, 2010 - 02:28am PT
Russ says they've located these creatures on earth...
I think they are more like this, myself...
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:29am PT
"they" could be closer, youre right. But to move efficient through space they would need to travel at light speed no? Even the closest planets with stars in their systems are 15 lights years away.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 02:32am PT
And Yes. I would need to see them. So until then this is a pretty stupid discussion. Good luck finding this spaceship on the moon. peace.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 03:24am PT
This guy is your primary source? Or are these lies told to hide the REAL truth.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax

The Apollo 20 hoax is a story told in a series of YouTube videos of a phony manned lunar mission whose purpose was to retrieve ancient alien artifacts from the moon. Thierry Speth, a French video artist, claimed to be the perpetrator of the hoax on 9 July 2007 on Need2Know.eu, an internet bulletin board.[1] However, no news organization has ever attempted to verify Speth's claim. The videos have drawn over 200,000 views since their appearance on YouTube.

In April, 2007 a series of videos began appearing on YouTube under the username retiredafb telling the story of Apollo 20.[2] Then on 25 March 2007, Italian ufologist Luca Scantanburlo interviewed somebody who identified himself as William Rutledge who claimed to be the commander of the Apollo 20 crew. Rutledge also claimed to be the account owner of retiredafb. However, Scantanburlo never met Rutledge in person because he conducted the interview over Yahoo! Messenger .[3]
During the interview, Rutledge claimed Apollo 20 was a top-secret mission launched in mid August of 1976 from Vandenberg Air Force Base in Santa Barbara, California and conducted jointly by the United States and the former Soviet Union. He said the other mission members were American Leona Snyder (an apparently fictitious person) and former Soviet cosmonaut Aleksei Leonov, the first human being to walk in space. The purported lunar landing site of the mission was near Delporte crater on the far side of the moon. Rutledge said the videos show that he and Leonov discovered the remains of an ancient lunar civilization.[4][5] He also said they brought back artifacts to earth for study, including a hibernating female alien.
Four months later, video artist Speth claimed responsibility for the hoax and explained that the entire story was fabricated.
[edit]YouTube videos

The hoaxer began posting the videos on April Fool's Day, a hint that the story was nothing more than an elaborate prank. He/she has since moved most of the videos to Revver.com under the same username (retiredafb).[6] However, others are scattered throughout YouTube posted by several account users, thereby making it difficult to determine the true identity of the hoaxer. Each continues to draw thousands of views.
Despite the realistic appearance of the videos, amateurs have easily debunked them on YouTube and elsewhere on the internet.[citation needed]
The videos are short, each only lasting a couple of minutes. If viewed in their intended sequence, they tell a partial story of the mission, starting with astronauts boarding Apollo 20 and ending with the extraordinary "discoveries" on the moon. They include the following images:
Ruins of an alien spacecraft
Ruins of an alien city [7]
The body of a hibernating female alien [8]
Apollo 20 flight plans and mission patches
The launch of Apollo 20
William Rutledge walking on the moon [9]
[edit]The truth behind the hoax

Like many hoaxes, this story is a mixture of facts and fiction. The starting point for it are photos that Apollo 15 astronauts took while in lunar orbit. The photos show what look like a cigar-shaped object resting in a crater. The hoaxer used these photos to create the image of pock-marked alien spacecraft on the moon. The NASA photos are real.[10] However, NASA never claimed they include images of alien spacecraft. The object in question is nothing more than a natural part of the lunar terrain.
In truth, Apollo 20 was a mission that never got off the ground -- literally. It was one of three lunar missions NASA cancelled due to lack of funding along with Apollos 18 and 19. The last NASA lunar mission was Apollo 17, launched in 1972. The next Apollo mission was the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project coordinated by the United States and the former Soviet Union in 1975. However, its mission was to remain in low earth orbit and to dock with a Soviet Soyuz spacecraft, something it accomplished successfully. Some mistakenly refer to that mission as Apollo 18.
Some of the stages for the Saturn V rockets intended for NASA’s three cancelled lunar missions had already been constructed before their cancellation. According to the hoaxer's story, these were all used on lunar missions for Apollos 18, 19 and 20. In reality NASA used one of these to launch Skylab into orbit in 1973. The others are on display at three American space centers: the John F. Kennedy Space Center near Cape Canaveral, Florida; the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas and the United States Space & Rocket Center in Huntsville, Alabama.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 12:28pm PT
Rokjox,

Thanks for mentioning updating Google Earth. I did so also recently and didn't realize that they have included better resolution base imagery from Lunar Orbiter Mosaic for the Moon. Very cool. All I had to do was click on the radio button and voila!

Although with the newest LRO imagery posted and available we wouldn't be doing this. Everyone would know the truth then.

So I re-did my work and now it is much improved with better lat./long. and it is now possible to kinda measure the craft on the better imagery, although it is still very pixelated and blurred.









One thing people need to realize, there are indeed faked videos within this story. Anyone who has been following this story since April of 2007 knows this. The thing is, there is real, mixed with fake. It takes time to sort through it all.

This is classic COINTELPRO and our government has a really long established track record, and long time experience at doing this sort of thing. Mix real with fake, then you have plausible deniability, can denie it, yet at the same time let real info get through. This works to debunk the story within most people's mind. If some of it is faked then they can buy into it all being faked. Voila! story debunked. But not so fast. It also serves in allowing a story to stew and simmer for a long, long time, allowing people to get used to the idea over long periods of time, depressing the shock value.

I have no doubt that the massive object is there, and it is intelligently designed. Did they land and go over and retrieve an alien? I don't know about that. I do believe at the least, that NASA Apollo missions flew over for a closer look at a minimum. This maybe is all that Apollo 20 did. It could be they never landed. Wanted to, but didn't. The alien footage maybe a very elaborate hoax. A what if we did, what would we have found?

I try to stick with the imagery that looks real and can be verified and measured against what we know is real. Photogrammetry can be done with all images and there are cross-referencing techniques that we can do to know and verify if the imagery is real, or faked with bad clay models or digital fakes.

It is much harder faking imagery within the Ingress Room of the Apollo Missions, within the LM, real human faces, and real imagery from NASA Apollo missions, that have indeed taken many images of the site on the farside of the Moon.

It will take time to sort through and really cross reference, and validate all the good imagery using techniques of photogrammetry. What needs to be done is to cross reference all the really good flyover imagery that appears real in all of its form, to those images that we know are real and officially from NASA. Photogrammetry can do this. It takes time and patience, but it can be done. The stuff that looks like clay modelling is clay modelling. I don't even consider that.

Even the best faked modelling, and faked imagery can not be done so well as to mimic exactly all the measurements that can be done and the ratios measured and compared between suspect imagery and real authentic imagery. That is why careful, precise photogrammetry works.

And like I said, photogrammetry can also be done with the human face to help verify the identity of someone.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 2, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
this is really unbelievable.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
COINTELPRO has never stopped. All US government agencies into spying and intelligence probably have there own programs: FBI, CIA, DOD, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

On Wikileaks not too long ago you could look at and download the entire DOD FM Manual on COINTELPRO used within Special Forces. That manual is probably still up for browsing and download. Read it and your eyes will be opened. Just how far do you think our government is willing to go to fake things?

Read it and weep for our country.

Wikileaks: U.S. Special Forces Counter-Insurgency Manual FM 31-20-3
June 16th, 2008
http://cryptogon.com/?p=2751

In the above article there is a link to the original FM document at Wikileaks . . .


Wikileaks is still in fund raising mode, so they are not posting their searchable archive.



Here is a link that will work:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4246204/US_Special_Forces_counter-insurgency_manual_FM_31-20-3
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 2, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
Haha, any evidence debunking a conspiracy is considered countelpro.

Who can argue with that?

Keeping chewing your 'mental gum' Klimmer, that's all it is.

But you might consider spitting it out, instead of swallowing whole.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 2, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
If you believe in Angels, aren't they just a high vibration alien?

Physics travel restrictions on beings on different dimensions are probably different. Do they charge for carry on luggage?

We make so many assumptions about things that are far out of league of understanding. We don't know what our next major technological shifts and breakthroughs are going to be, much less for folks who have may have had advanced civilization for millions of years, not just 10,000.

Like Seti. What make them think aliens would be using radiowaves to communicate?

Peace

Karl
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
Wasn't Klimmer supposed to be at the Woodsonfest? Was he sighted there, and did anyone get a photo? Has anyone here met Klimmer, besides maybe Weld_It?
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
May 2, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Hoes before bros:-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos

Steven Spielberg on UFO's and Jimmy Carter 1977
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TY6yg4ejM&feature=related

Ex President Jimmy Carter UFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJeBCi47ME&feature=related

Ray-Gun's ALIEN speech to UN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA&feature=related

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&feature=related

Ex Astronaut Says Feds 'Know' UFOs Exist 21.4.2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOZtfy0MwY&feature=related

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

NASA Gordon Cooper UFOs are visiting the Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related

U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT -FULL VERSION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk&feature=related

Clinton's (UFO) Speech in Hong Kong 14 Sep 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3F3CXspsuo&feature=related

The Vatican's Take on Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

YouTube - Michio Kaku On Aliens On Physics ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM&feature=related


UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyFWyNuF3s&feature=related




C'mon guys. You naysayers need to get caught up. Many are way ahead of you.



Pull your heads out of the ground and take a look around.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
May 2, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
"I still can't believe Klimmer is a teacher."

You must not be familiar with the way things work in California.
bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 2, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
The Motivation for hoaxing videos on Youtube is a program called Adsense revenue sharing by Google. I think it's what Chris uses on Supertopo.

With the kind of view numbers these UFO/Ark Apollo 20 conspiracy videos generate it would be quite lucrative.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Which would prove that there really is one born every minute...

Anyway, what if the ark came to earth at the Arking Plot in Camp 4?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
I feel really sorry for you guys.

It must be scarry in your little narrow naive private sheltered worlds.

No substance just ridicule. The definative evidence of a small mind.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
I feel really sorry for you guys.

It must be scarry in your little narrow naive private sheltered worlds.

No substance just ridicule. The definative evidence of a small mind.


It must be exciting in your upside-down world of gullibility, where the most fantastic and outrageously improbable explanations appear to be the most credible and reasonable.

What's next, Venusian Leprechauns?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
Weschrist- That was so well said it made me feel good again. Thanks.

How does a teacher spell so poorly? Isn't he supposed to have a higher standard to hold himself to?

I do wonder now if he ain't a troll. Talk about being had as a possibility!


Mighty Hiker wrote-
"Wasn't Klimmer supposed to be at the Woodsonfest? Was he sighted there, and did anyone get a photo? Has anyone here met Klimmer..."

Anyone?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
Hey, I got the word "plot" in my last post. What more do you want?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
Pate wrote-
"There you go Klimmer, that's it in a nutshell. Your condescending attitude is what gets you the replies you get..."

I'm thinking now he thrives on it. Look how he's come back with a vengence with this stuff. -After being "outed and shopped" as Mister E said a few pages back.

Paging LOCKER...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Yep. Its really sad.

The Bully Club of ST, is alive and well. The reason many have left ST.

None of you ever really talk substance, only ad hominem attacks constantly.


All we get are Cyber Bullies. You're infamous on ST. It gets really old.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
Pate wrote-
"I don't feel sorry for you Klimmer- I hold you accountable for your ignorance."

Damn straight.

I'm a fan of Sam Harris, whose stance is that there's a place for shame, for shaming in society, and for shaming those who pander bronze-age ignorance and superstition in the 21st century. My stance, too.

Klimmer's inspired me to strengthen this stance, I think.


Yeah, here comes the Talking Points vocabulary of the supernaturalists and crazies, too. "Cyber-bullies!" "Hate!" "Haters!" "Arrogant!" "Attackers!" Don't let this gilligan reframe it.

"None of you ever really talk substance..."
Rich!

What do you want to talk about? Ohm's Law? Actin-myosin filament theory as a basis for muscular movement and behavior? Carl Sagan's "Cosmic Calender"? Environmental conditions on Titan that might be conducive to life. Mitochondria? Switching power supplies? Derivation of E=mc2. (Have you done it?) Game theory? Prisoner's Dilemma? and how it's kinda playing out in the fossil fuel depletion? the proof to five and only five perfect solids? What? C'mon.

Post up something "substantive" that one gets in college science or graduate school and you'll get different responses.

You baffle with b.s. You don't dazzle with any brilliance. Go read a Lubert Stryer Biochemistry book, come back, then post up all that crazy crap.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 2, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
Perhaps we need to have a meeting at the Integratron to sort this out?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integratron

Anyway, the people capable of believing in an Apollo 20 mission seem much the same as those who believe that Apollo 11 never happened.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
Anyway, the people capable of believing in an Apollo 20 mission seem much the same as those who believe that Apollo never happened.



Reality lies somewhere between Werner and Klimmer.





WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 2, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
Maybe Klimmer can get to the bottom of this cosmic celtic conspiracy . . .




















































High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
Anyway, Klimmer, thanks for being our "poster child" or simply personification here at the Taco for you know what. You're our opportunity, or, let me speak for myself, my opportunity, to vent. Again, thanks. Feels good.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
Q: Why would you ever post on a OP topic that you are not interested in or think completely out of this world and bat-poop crazy?

No one is forcing you to respond.

I skip topics and threads all the time. If I don't have anything constructive to say, I pass it by.

I do not attack anyone. I will call out bad behavior. Apparently you haven't heard of manners or the Golden Rule.



Recall, the OP is about the massive object on the farside of the Moon.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 2, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
Hey Klimmer, was this one of your 'constructive' posts?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1126598&msg=1126806#msg1126806

You know, the one about angels f*#king humans, creating supernatural offspring that pissed off God and confirms the angry, violent, old testament God.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
We don't "attack" anyone either. We are men and women of laws, afterall. We too "call out bad behavior". What's more, we call out bad belief, too, as it bears on better practices in the practice of living. So the point is, there is a reason, or reasons, behind it.

Reminder. Beliefs matter. Beliefs are "behavioral drivers" in the human species. (e.g., That's why the world is having a problem with Islamic jihadists right now.) That's the modern understanding since the 16th century.

re: 1. "attack" 2. "bully" 3. "hate" Watch your words. Words matter, too. (Unless you're a hip-hop artist, then I for one will be more forgiving. But your pic a few pages back and your posts so far don't suggest it.)


EDIT Yeah, Monolith, ain't that something.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
Monolith,

I certainly didn't state it like you did.

And yes, that is what the Book of Genesis discusses and the Book of Enoch.

I can tell you don't have faith in either. That is your choice.

I'm not saying these things in isolation. It is discussed in detail in books, religious texts that are held sacred by many around the world who believe including me.

So you do not believe. You do not see it that way. Why slam the faith of so many? Why not just roll your eyes, say "whatever," and walk on?

Live and let live. I'm not demanding anyone agree with me. I'm just wanting people to consider it, to talk about it, pro and con. If we disagree then we disagree. Manners should always prevail.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
Here it is from another perspective...

I pay attention to this thread to get a sense of how others are responding to your nonsense and Abrahamic Christian fundamentalism. This sense or "feel" happens to be important to me.

And my sense is, times ARE changing. My kindred spirits were burned at the stake 300-400 years ago. They're not anymore and Abrahamic religious institutions across continents and around the world are flailing. Thank goodness. Can't happen soon enough.

So it's not all about you or your crazy topics, Gilligan.
Diesel_Smoke

Big Wall climber
May 2, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
I digress; the Klimmer-like fundamentalist's views are truthfully the most reasonable and favorable of those who are aligned with religious dogma.

The effort of their adamant debating is honestly, in my opinion, evidence of genuine care for others. Their internal interest for others, in addition to their religious beliefs, reinforce ideas their efforts as beneficial and necessary for those not of belief. While their efforts may amuse and irritate, a greater degree of concern and intelligence exists in them than their indifferent religious counterpart.

The religious 'moderates' are the most loathsome, feeble minded, and self-interested of all religious (and non-religious) sects. While fundamentalists may justify their beliefs with remarkably poor evidence and bizarre conclusions, moderates cite nothing but self-interested rewards for their beliefs. These feeble-minded 'believers' need no understanding for any event; no cause/effect evidence needed for accepting their beliefs.

Individuals who merely foreclose their belief as a guarantee of future incentives and salvation demonstrate the lowest imaginable level of intellectual achievement. Any requirement of evidence for 'truth' is an obvious indication of higher function. Similarly, refusing the comforts and incentives of faith is not actually a satisfying solution. Obviously, declining 72 virgins isn't a casual decision. And, maybe, within the quiet confines of my mind, on my death bed, I'll accept... just to feebly 'see what happens.'

Thus, I sincerely applaud the efforts and concern of Klimmer, et al. The internal goodness as manifested in your actions, despite religious dogma, is likely real concern for others' salvation. Your ability to consider and imagine beyond the constraints of religion is welcoming.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 2, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
I see what you're saying so I won't disagree.

Yet, then again, I'm also with the likes of Sam Harris: Both camps are a menace. Each in their own way.

Case in point: I'd rather a suit-case size nuclear bomb were in the hands of a moderate Christian or Moslem than a fundamentalist one.



EDIT 6:43. Well, then Jim, I guess were defining "bullying" these days differently then. So let's throw in "attacking" and "hating" too. Then again, not. That's b.s.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 2, 2010 - 10:22pm PT

I like Klimmer's posts, actually, they beat the political threads anyway.
Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
May 2, 2010 - 10:40pm PT
Klimmer: I do respect that you believe all angles of the question should be considered.

However:

Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' book, "On Death and Dying” identifies five stages of accepting death.

• Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

• Anger (why is this happening to me?)

• Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

• Depression (I don't care anymore)

• Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)



Perhaps you should accept:

those stages may apply to those who present ST threads with controversial material.







Sometime: you just have to let go.



Best wishes, Fritz
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
May 2, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
“The religious 'moderates' are the most loathsome, feeble minded, and self-interested of all religious (and non-religious) sects. While fundamentalists may justify their beliefs with remarkably poor evidence and bizarre conclusions, moderates cite nothing but self-interested rewards for their beliefs. These feeble-minded 'believers' need no understanding for any event; no cause/effect evidence needed for accepting their beliefs.”



Moderate Christians ?

“So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out…”

Rev 3:16
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 11:09am PT
I don't think ignorance is the right word to describe Klimmer. He is quite aware. He just chooses fantasy and conjecture. I think he is harmless.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 11:19am PT
Guys,

I have a moment now since students are still state testing.

Seems you all have a very short memmory.

I suppose you would say the same thing towards these great men of science and faith: Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and many, many more.

Not that I'm in that class, only to point out doing science and having faith are compatible.

I've already stated I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. Do we know our history completely without flaw? Do we see crystal clearly regarding our past? Do we know all? Do we know all the connections within Evolution and exactly how it happened? Yes, we have have theories with evidence, but they are incomplete.

We have a hidden past that is being revealed slowly.

Hypotheses gentlemen are educated guesses. We can all speculate. And speculation leads to investigation and the scientific method . . .

Let me know when you know it all. Thanks.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
So who among you is brave enough to go in on a FOIA request from NASA with me regarding the massive object on the farside of the Moon? I would request a specific region with 4 corners described by lat/long with the center nadir over the center of said object, and I would request the latest and highest resolution of all LRO images of said object from a multitude of perspectives for 3D viewing.

The center mass of the massive object is (according to Google Moon):

18 degrees 43 minutes South Lattitude

117 degrees 41 minutes East Longitude



Making NASA FOIA requests:
http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/FOIA/

The LRO Mission:
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/
The LRO Mission team:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/team/index.html
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/science.html
http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/gallery.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/index.html
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
Not me.


But if there aren't any documents,which will probably be the case then what? Will it become fodder for a new conspiracy?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 3, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
"brave enough"?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
^^^^ two or more out that far on a limb could be scary!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
You do know that I'm only requesting the latest up to date imagery from the Lunar Recon. Orbiter (LRO) that is now imaging the entire Moon surface at the highest resolution ever. It is so good we can now see the tracks on the Moon's surface from the Apollo missions.

I would not be asking for interpretation, just the images. Just the raw images. No purposeful manipulation, no pixellating, no masking, just the virgin raw images as they come from the LRO for said region.

This program has been paid for with our tax dollars. These images belong to all US citizens. They are the peoples' images. We should have complete access to them.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
From the olde days of Bill Zaumen on the wreck, DMT has spoken out against ganging
up on the odd kid. I truly respect that.
howlostami

Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
May 3, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
The only reason the chinese have a space program is so they can plant an ark on the dark side of the moon :)
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 3, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
Although a few scientists throughout history have had ideas that seemed crackpot, such as thinking that the earth is round, most crackpots have turned out to be crackpots.

It will suck of Klimmer turns out to be right but statistically, he's a crackpot by believing that there is a giant space ark on the dark side of the moon.

I'm not at all sure how thinking that he is a crackpot about this has anything to do with religion but I guess anyone who shows pictures like those on the cover of the Enquirer and then talks of God is going to be condemned for both.

Also, Galileo was not some unknown guy posting on the internet. When I hear that someone at NASA thinks this is more than a simply Photoshop trick then I might pay more attention. Until then, I'll stick with the traditional view that there is no space ark on the moon and that it's just some silly idea being supported by wackos.

I look forward to being wrong but that doesn't mean I'll just believe any outlandish idea like this. If I believe this, I'll have to believe in Santa Claus, vampires, and a balanced budget, too.

Dave

[edit to add] Attacking Klimmer and not just the idea presented is a bit weak. There are far crazier people teaching our kids. At least Klimmer doesn't seem to hide anything. I hope he doesn't teach this stuff to kids as truth or I'll start siding with the haters.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
It's a dollars and cents issue when an agency like NASA has to burn much needed dollars responding to thousands of quack FOIA requests...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Rokjox, thanks.

Come on guys. Do I know if it is a Space Ark of intelligent design?
No I do not.

Do I think that it could be, from the images and story floating around regarding Apollo 20? Yes it could be. There are elements of this story that seem to be true. Bits of real truth seem to be and could be leaking out.

No, I do not talk about this with students. There are many things I do not talk about with anyone. I have stated this many times before.

One of the neat things about the internet, is that you can float strange ideas and opinions without any significant flack. Well, ok, I used to think this. Flack just seems to be coming my way on ST though.

Gee, on this thread too much private info has been released. I have never done to anyone what has been done to me here on this thread. I would never do that kind of Bovine Dung to someone.

I'm asking questions and looking for real answers. I know NASA knows already. I would like to know also. I think many, many people all over the Earth would like to know.

They (NASA Apollo Missions) have taken many images of this object and has been shown in the historical image record. If it was just a ridge, if it was just an anomoly along the side of a crater, then I do not think they would give it any time and we wouldn't see so many official images of the massive object.

We are talking about a structure/object that is about 4500m by 850m or so in size and casts a shadow. Anything natural like a meteor slamming into the Moon at high impact speeds would create a massive crater, and it would vaporize. Check out Dr. Melosh's Impact Crater Calculator on-line and put in the size of this impactor to match the size of this object and you will see the crater would be massive.

A massive rock/asteroid this size does not come to rest on the Moon's surface gently.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
With evident embarassment, NASA caved in to public pressure for a serious response about that "face on Mars."

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast24may_1/

But of course a serious response from NASA had no effect on believers.

http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/cydonia/proof_files/proof.asp
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
But the Martians love us, and here's proof.
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
Gee, on this thread too much private info has been released. I have never done to anyone what has been done to me here on this thread.

I agree, and I think a lot of people should be ashamed.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
Here is a list of sites that debunk most of Klimmer's claims. It appears that a man name Thiery Speth has made up this whole thing.


http://sites.google.com/site/tasfastas/apollo20-pseudospaceship

http://blog.sublime.ca/2007/06/spaceship-debunked.html

http://apollohoax.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=theories&thread=1000&page=1

http://www.articlesbase.com/science-articles/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax-307209.html

http://www.galaxiki.org/web/main/_blog/all/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax.shtml

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax

http://www.engineerpages.info/wp/article/the-apollo-20-alien-spaceship-hoax/

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 3, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
As good a place as any to drop this little research gem:
Brain shuts off in response to healer's prayer

27 April 2010 by Andy Coghlan

WHEN we fall under the spell of a charismatic figure, areas of the brain responsible for scepticism and vigilance become less active. That's the finding of a study which looked at people's response to prayers spoken by someone purportedly possessing divine healing powers.

To identify the brain processes underlying the influence of charismatic individuals, Uffe Schjřdt of Aarhus University in Denmark and colleagues turned to Pentecostal Christians, who believe that some people have divinely inspired powers of healing, wisdom and prophecy.

Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), Schjřdt and his colleagues scanned the brains of 20 Pentecostalists and 20 non-believers while playing them recorded prayers. The volunteers were told that six of the prayers were read by a non-Christian, six by an ordinary Christian and six by a healer. In fact, all were read by ordinary Christians.

Only in the devout volunteers did the brain activity monitored by the researchers change in response to the prayers. Parts of the prefrontal and anterior cingulate cortices, which play key roles in vigilance and scepticism when judging the truth and importance of what people say, were deactivated when the subjects listened to a supposed healer. Activity diminished to a lesser extent when the speaker was supposedly a normal Christian (Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, DOI: 10.1093/scan/nsq023).

Schjřdt says that this explains why certain individuals can gain influence over others, and concludes that their ability to do so depends heavily on preconceived notions of their authority and trustworthiness.

It's not clear whether the results extend beyond religious leaders, but Schjřdt speculates that brain regions may be deactivated in a similar way in response to doctors, parents and politicians.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627574.200-brain-shuts-off-in-response-to-healers-prayer.html

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
I know NASA knows already.

The problem with your premise starts with thinking like this...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 3, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
Healyje- Stop attacking him.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:03pm PT
YES. NASA KNOWS.

The thing is, UFO disclosure has already really taken place, but no one really seems to listen. Why is that?

NASA does know, and here is why . . .

(Now I did post this before but I doubt you watched and learned. Maybe you guys can now watch and see just how much NASA knows. They know alright. These people talk because they were in the inside, now retired, so they can. Many on the inside can not talk or they run the risk of losing their jobs)

Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos

Steven Spielberg on UFO's and Jimmy Carter 1977
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9TY6yg4ejM&feature=related

Ex President Jimmy Carter UFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJeBCi47ME&feature=related

Ray-Gun's ALIEN speech to UN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA&feature=related

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&feature=related

Ex Astronaut Says Feds 'Know' UFOs Exist 21.4.2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOZtfy0MwY&feature=related

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

NASA Gordon Cooper UFOs are visiting the Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related

U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT -FULL VERSION
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk&feature=related

Clinton's (UFO) Speech in Hong Kong 14 Sep 2005
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3F3CXspsuo&feature=related

The Vatican's Take on Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

YouTube - Michio Kaku On Aliens On Physics ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM&feature=related


UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGyFWyNuF3s&feature=related




If an honest person would watch all the videos above, you would come to know Aliens/UFOs are a real phenonmenon, you do not have to be bat-poop crazy or be a fruit-loop to known it is real and this phenomenon has been occurring throughout mankind's recorded history.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 06:09pm PT
UFO Contact - Former Canadian Defence Minister
Paul Hellyer was our Minister of Defence from 1963 - 68. He's now 87, and hasn't been active in current affairs in any substantive or consistent way since the 1970s. Overall not entirely credible. A video of him from 2005 saying that he believes in UFOs is pretty thin gruel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Hellyer
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
Basic math debunks the whole shebang.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
MH,

Do you not know that the Canadian gov has an official site that allows people to look at your governments archives of UFO Canadian sightings and associated phenomenon?

I would google the site but I'm tired. It has been a long day. More work to do at home. It exists.


Here are some:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/ufo/index-e.html

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/canada.htm



Boy, you Canooks must be into some strange kinda wacky weed to believe all this stuff. Sarcasm. It's really ok. You just want to know the truth.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Nothing in the Carter, Reagan, or Clinton youtube videos you posted even vaguely suggests any of the three believe/d in UFO's.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Although Reagan seemed the sort of person capable of believing in UFOs...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
Nothing in the Carter, Reagan, or Clinton youtube videos you posted even vaguely suggests any of the three believe/d in UFO's


If you post all the interviews with Carter regarding his sighting he does admit to seeing a UFO, in some he admits he isn't sure what it is, in some he says it might be, and in others he says no, he doesn't believe stuff like that is possible. But in all he is consistant with seeing a UFO. He has.

Reagan eludes to the idea that Aliens are among us already.

Clinton talks about and eludes to the idea that we have a government within a government. And yes he did try to find out about Rosewell and Area 51. "They" shut him down. "They" never agreed or abidded by his need to know, because as the President of the United States, he wasn't on a need to know basis. We do indeed have a government within a government. One is permanent throughout all administrations, and one is not. One is voted in every 4 years. The other is never voted in, and is always permanently there, whether we want it or not.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
No, Carter says he saw something he can't explain, he does not believe it was a craft piloted by aliens.

No, Reagan was using a hypothetical as an example of the kind of event that could / would unite humanity. He 'eludes' nothing whatsoever.

No, Clinton 'eluded' to the fact there might be a crank career employee sitting on material he hasn't seen. It's entirely unlikely and even if such a crank did have material, it would be the same lame junk everyone else with this proposition has.
scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 3, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
To answer Mighty Hiker's earlier questions (I won't quote them, you'll
have to guess), I have in fact met Klimmer: not at the WoodsonFest but at
the Woodson Shindig (2007).
He is personable, intelligent and lively, and he can climb. I will offer
one caveat.
He spent what might be considered an inordinate amount of time in quasi
secret discussions with "Phantom X", the main topic being a highly
esoteric and restricted document with a title like The Revenge of the
Itus.
The author is supposedly one "Dennis Adams" (I'm So Sure).

It is telling, perhaps, that Phantom X has never subsequently produced
this document despite repeated requests.

As for Weld_it, I have yet to meet that rising star of trad radness. I
understand that he has unlimited Man Potential in addition to his generous
concern for the safety of the climbing community.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
I've met Weld-It, or at least someone claiming to be Weld-It. He/she was not a space alien.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
what is with all of the posts that are not climbing related? Shouldn't there be another section for information that isn't related to climbing? I was hoping to find some information on this great form about fabricating my own climbing holds. But it seems in between a few not so great trip reports there is nothing but political discussion. What is wrong with you people? Go somewhere else?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Jongy you couldn't be more right. Political/religious threads get far more posts than climbing ones. Hell, the odd sex thread even gets buried by the other crap. Must have something to do with all the people from LA.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
Who is Donni? Donni if you are reading this can you tell me about your favorite climbing hold recipe?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
Son, I don't do plastic but even a discussion about (ugh!) indoor "climbing" is better that the pseudo science/religious conspiracy crap we've been getting.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 3, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
You have a point Rokjox, waiting at the airport for a friend to arrive from England, I must be bored to the point of stupidity.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
donini if you would like you can buy some of my holds and build a wall for yourself.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Yeah, how do you make them? I need to know.
WBraun

climber
May 3, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
I will make hold.

Choke hold.

Goes around your weld_it neck till you turn blue ....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 3, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
So much for Werner the pacifist...

Anyway, you may not be strong or fast enough. I hear Weld_It's a tough customer.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 3, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
I don't know what all the fuss is about as they are already amongst us...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
Yeah, it's a thread dedicated to the exploration of ideas - oh-how-I-wish ideas that are then embellished with elobarately fabriacted 'facts', photos, ridiculous analyses, quotes out of context (hell, contexts out of context), and all sorts of other crock. It would be 'innocent' enough except in the age of the Internet this endless manufacturing of conspiracies does have a corrosive effect on society over time. Bad enough we can't seem to graduate more than half our highschool students and at the same time have so many people truck in this drivel. That someone attempts to do both does raise a concern in some folks; but that's cool so long as he keeps this stuff to himself at work.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 3, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
But that's the thing. I want to make holds out of natural material. Not plastic.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
Climbing holds! Climbing holds??? What is this thread coming tooooo!!??

Better than plastic climbing holds are real rock climbing holds. Go to your favorite climbing crag and permanently borrow choice pieces of talis and flakes fallen on the ground of rock, whether they are granite, limestone, sandstone, basalt, tuff, whatever. Drill a 3/8" straight hole for the bolt plus washer, and cut a gasket for the back of your real rock manufactured hold out of old bicycle inner-tube and place between the rock and the artificial wall, and Voila! you have yourself a genuine great climbing hold that feels and climbs like real rock. Duh!!! It is. And the best part, every hold is unique. No 2 are alike.

I have made many such holds. They're great.


The most expensive of these types of holds are from the Moon. Moon rock climbing holds go for about $50,000/g or more. I say we get up there and bring back more than 380kg worth that Apollo brought back. Surely, the more we can bring back the cheaper the hold, don't you think?

Back to the Moon!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
Rokjox - speed of light, distance to nearest planet with intelligent life, and the energy required to travel anywhere near the SOL - it's an exercise in time travel consuming near infinite energy. Good luck with the odds of that ever happening once, let alone happening all the time with Earth somehow always the destination of choice. We must be high up on galactic travel agents' "must do" list.

And look at Klimmer's Apollo 20 shoulder patch, what does that imply? Aside from the fact neither craft had any such capability, where would they take it? Ridiculous.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
May 3, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
Some Adirondack anorthosite could sub for moon rock holds, only a few billion years younger than the real thing, but otherwise an almost perfect match.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Pate's right. Im done with this. I cant argue with someone who bases their beliefs on Youtube videos. I think you pose interesting questions Klimmer, but thats all they are. Shadow governments, 911 conspiracies, religions prophecy..... anything else you want to share? They are all part of the same bullsh*t.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
May 3, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
Nobody said it had any sort of passengers.

Umm, yeah, the original hoax behind this thread includes a video of a "female alien mummy."
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 3, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
I'm excited that the topic of making holds out of plastic came up finally.

I'd like to make some plastic holds out of natural material also. What is the most natural plastic to use?
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 3, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
Jongy was asking donini about making plastic holds, it seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

Is donini a comp climber?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 3, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
I keep learning new stuff from this thread. Personally, I'm glad Klimmer started it.
And now thanks to Stich, I know that Kermit lives on Mars.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
Rokjox,


I've had these on my amazon.com wish list for sometime now. Haven't purchased them but would like too:

I Could Tell You But Then You Would Have to be Destroyed by Me: Emblems from the Pentagon's Black World [Hardcover]
Trevor Paglen
http://www.amazon.com/Could-Tell-Then-Would-Destroyed/dp/1933633328/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1ONZDX3MP34OH&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



Review
"A fascinating set of shoulder patches designed for the Pentagon's Black Ops programs."
—Stephen Colbert, The Colbert Report

“A glimpse of [the Pentagon’s] dark world through a revealing lens—patches—the kind worn on military uniforms.... The book offers not only clues into the nature of the secret programs, but also a glimpse of zealous male bonding among the presumed elite of the military-industrial complex. The patches often feel like fraternity pranks gone ballistic.”
—William Broad, The New York Times

“Gives readers a peek into the shadows ... Department of Defense spokesman Bob Mehal told Newsweek that it ‘would not be prudent to comment on what patches did or did not represent classified units.’ That’s OK. Some mysteries are more fun when they stay unsolved.”
—Karen Pinchin, Newsweek

"An art book that presents peculiar shoulder patches created for the weird and top secret programs funded by the Pentagon's black budget... an achievement."
—Timothy Buckwalter, The San Francisco Chonicle

"I was fascinated... [Paglen] has assembled about 40 colorful patch insignia from secret, military 'black' programs that are hardly ever discussed in public. He has plenty of regalia from the real denizens of Area 51."
—Alex Beam, The Boston Globe

"An impressive collection."
—Justin Rood, ABC News

"The iconography of the United States military. Not the mainstream military, with its bars and ribbons and medals, but the secret or 'black projects' world, which may or may not involve contacting aliens, building undetectable spy aircraft, and experimenting with explosives that could make atomic bombs look like firecrackers. Here, mysterious characters and cryptic symbols hint at intrigue much deeper than rank, company, and unit."
—UTNE Reader

"Of course, issuing patches for a covert operation sounds like a joke...but truth be told, these days everything is branded. Military symbols are frequently replete with heraldic imagery—some rooted in history, others based on contemporary popular arts that feature comic characters—but these enigmatic dark-op images, in some cases probably designed by the participants themselves, are more personal, and also more disturbing, than most."
—Steven Heller, The New York Times Book Review



Blank Spots on the Map: The Dark Geography of the Pentagon's Secret World [Bargain Price] [Hardcover]
Trevor Paglen
http://www.amazon.com/Blank-Spots-Map-Geography-Pentagons/dp/B002ACPM5E/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b


Top Secret Tourism: Your Travel Guide to Germ Warfare Laboratories, Clandestine Aircraft Bases and Other Places in the United States You're Not Supposed to Know About [Paperback]
Harry Helms
http://www.amazon.com/Top-Secret-Tourism-Laboratories-Clandestine/dp/1932595236/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b



There are many mission patches out there are "really way out there" that speak volumes about what they want to say but can't. Even the clandestine world likes to brag. Bragging is enherently human.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 4, 2010 - 12:28am PT
That's a good sized moonark! Is it secret?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 12:40am PT
Cosmiccragman asked . . .


Was Goliath part Nephilim? Gen: 6.4


Yes, many well learned Biblical scholars say so. His people were Nephalim.


I would like to eventually put up a list of links that goes into a great deal of incredibly interesting facts and evidence concerning The Hidden History of Mankind. There is much that the official world of Archeology, Anthropology, and Paleontology ignores that tell another possible story of our ancestry. Many probably think I'm coming up with this stuff in isolation on my own. Nope. There are many wonderful scholars and resources that go into this in detail.

Even the thought of the Nephalim escaping the Biblical Flood Off-World via a massive spacecraft Ark is not my original thought. Others have thought it through and came up with that scenerio. I think it is plausible too, if one accepts the Bible as truth and the Book of Enoch as the truth and a missing Book of the Bible, and also note - it was also found in the Caves with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

If one accepts the Bible as truth. If one accepts that Fallen Angels mated with mankind and had off-spring called Nephalim. If one accepts that some Nephalim somehow escaped the flood and survived afterwards. Then they would have had to go off-World to do so, since the Bible says the entire world was covered, yet some Nephalim were after the flood. Then the situation is plausible.

Yes, I'm aware that this scenerio is bat-poop nuts to many, but the only new piece that is added that is not found in any religious and sacred books is the escaping off-world in a massive Spacecraft (Space-Ark), and perhaps it crashed onto the farside of the Moon.


Hey, all I want is for NASA to provide the hi-res images without any hanky panky of the entire region in question, from the LRO images, and enough imagery of said region to view the object in hi-res 3D. Let me see the all the actual real images from LRO, and I will be a happy camper. If it is natural and nothing is there, so be it. If something massive is there and it does indeed have intelligently designed features and the look, then you have to ask Who? When? And Why? The Nephalim escaping Earth is a working Hypothesis for Christians to consider.


monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 4, 2010 - 01:17am PT
Cool, we're back to angels f*#king humans.

Why is that the angels always chose to be guys, Klimmer?

Or were there any that chose to be women?

Did they just not want to hang around pregnant for nine months?

This is what caused the old testament God to be angry and violent because the supernatural offspring were like throwing lightning bolts around and sh#t, right?

Was he also pissed off at the angels? Or was it like 'oh well, angels will be angels'?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2010 - 01:18am PT
Has nobody brought up the possibility that this 'ark' is some kind of digital artifact or just plain weird low angle lighting? Seems to me too that it might have been shot with film and then digitized thereby raising the chances of artifacts even higher.

Also, it seems highly unlikely to me that a culture sophisticated enough to travel how many light years would then 'blow the landing'.
skywalker

climber
May 4, 2010 - 01:25am PT
really? Let me rephrase that (please pause a second when you say it and assert yourself), REALLY??????

S......
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 4, 2010 - 01:30am PT
It's always good to keep the "skepticals" on, but not a closed mind.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:54am PT
I PM'd Jonga and he gave me his recipe for creating Mexican all natural climbing holds. By pouring a mixture of 1/4 Elmer's glue and 3/4 scented kitty litter into jello molds you can create some dab shapes.

To give them more stick you can apply heat prior to climbing.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:59am PT
He said that he uses the white Elmer's glue because he likes to sometimes eat a little bit when he's making them and says it tastes ok.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 02:07am PT
I have no doubt there were, are, and will be other civilizations in the universe - it's pretty clear from the fact we exist that it's imminently possible for life to flourish throughout the universe. I would guess off-hand that there are likely a multitude of civilizations capable of reaching orbit and beyond as a result.

That's not the issue - time travel is the issue - as is the energy budget required to construct any such an object in orbit, or to provide for interstellar propulsion. And what would be the point of such an object? You keep going on about this possibility and that possibility without so much a single plausible conjecture as to how such a thing could be even remotely possible or why.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 02:27am PT
YES.

Lots. I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Will post up stuff on Mars later . . .

How about that giant golfball GOD hit into the giant sand-trap of Mars though?






Aw geees, it is gonna take another FOIA request with the MRO - HiRISE imagery from NASA. Why can't we just see it all without begging NASA for it?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 02:39am PT
Klimmer, NASA's most likely released everything they have... but if you want to waste your time, go ahead and file a FOIA... http://www.hq.nasa.gov/pao/FOIA/

or you can ask them to shoot a picture of your favorite area:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20100331.html

you can also stare at your ceiling and get a lot of really great patterns there too, or maybe the clouds (ever suspect that the way you "see" might be suggesting patterns that aren't what you perceive?).

I can send you a bumper sticker for your car... I need to get another one for 510 OW as the current one is pretty weathered, from the bumper sticker guy on Telegraph Ave:

"DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU THINK"

my guess is that you're way on the other side of that advice.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 4, 2010 - 03:06am PT
Look at Weld-it, port and flashy. they can't even let monkeys on a worthless free social network have a thread to them selves, and it's FREEE for them to take their bullshit to their OWN THREAD. All they have to do is show a LITTLE self restraint, and we could ALL have our own threads. But NO. They are im-mature and have to throw their sh#t into OUR cage, because they can't amuse themselves without f*#king up somebody's else's wet dream.

How about taking your bullshit to your own website where you can have your wet dream in peace? Klimmer posts this stuff here because he knows he will get us riled up.

They are a perfect example of immature racial profiles

Dude.......what are you talking about?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 03:20am PT
RJ
NASA's job, funded by a third of a billion Americans, is to answer the questions we ask. Who has a better right to ask the questions than the people who are funding the project?

I don't think so... NASA's "job" isn't to respond to every nutjob in this country or any other country (although they do respond a lot, amazingly).

What does NASA do? (http://www.nasa.gov/about/highlights/what_does_nasa_do.html);

NASA's mission is to pioneer the future in space exploration, scientific discovery and aeronautics research.

it doesn't say anything about pandering to the lunatic fringe, though they're happy to do it if they think it helps them politically...
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 4, 2010 - 03:20am PT
Are you meat sticks still at this? What a circle jerk of losers!

edit to clarify: not you Ed. Them other losers with their head in the clouds and asses in the air waiting for the alien probe from South Park.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 4, 2010 - 03:32am PT
Those scientists are actually doing science...

...and they spent a bit of time putting the missions together, designing the instruments, writing the codes to process the images, and to analyze them. They'd like to actually get to do some science after the 10+ years it takes to put a mission together before they are consumed with a bunch of wacky requests to look for "giant golf balls embedded in a martian sand trap."

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 03:37am PT
But you never attempt to even suggest answers to any of what I'm talking about. The problem with these sorts of discussions is that the participants never seem to be able to concurrently grasp and hold onto all three of the critical factors involved - the requisite distance, energy, and time scales. That seems once again to be the case here. In the case of this proposition you can't even seem to figure out how one might get it into orbit for a journey.

So let's play 'what if' with a like-sized cylinder of Titanium or something with similar structural qualities and mass:

Length: 5,000 Meters
Outer Diameter: 700 Meters
Inner Diameter: 690 Meters

What's that work out to in the way of volume of material and mass to source, refine, manufacture, and get to orbit:

Enclosed volume: 54,585,172.356 m3

Mass:

245,633,275,603 kg
541,528,676,073 lbs
270,764,338 tons

Given Earth's annual production of titanium-relatied ores / dioxides is about 5 million tons and that takes a shitload of energy to mine and process, let alone fabricate and send to orbit, it would seem to be quite a proposition even for an energy rich civilization. Even magically producing enough titanium from a moon would be a fantastical stretch of the imagination.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 4, 2010 - 03:38am PT
Rokjox, honest question: are you on any drugs now, prescribed or otherwise, and does your family know what you do here on the forum for hours a day?
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
May 4, 2010 - 03:40am PT
People just don't understand me - why, oh why?

Maybe if I try harder, they will see what is so glaringly obvious.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 05:09am PT
Well, I don't care how advanced or how long they live - amassing that much material from any source to produce an interstellar capable craft for any purpose would require more than hollowing out passing junk. And talking energy:

Accelerating one ton to one-tenth of the speed of light requires at least 450 PJ or 4.5 × 1017 J or 125 billion kWh, not accounting for losses

That would make powering our little visitor rack up about:

33,845,542,250,000,000,000 kWh

And 1/10th SOL would really only really be for commuting around the immediate galactic neigborhood.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 05:48am PT
And none of that takes into account the intelligence, energy, or systems necessary to brake and do a soft landing on the moon. Again all implausible.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 07:40am PT
Yes I have and again I don't find any of it remotely plausible as an explanation for Klimmer's interstellar Titanic.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 09:27am PT
Ah Stich another F word....fantasy. Along with "faith" they lead to actions that Pate rightly describes as stupidity.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 09:51am PT
Oh-kay, let's get back on track . . .


Yea, I may be seeing patterns that aren't really there, but then so are a million other people . . .

Massive Moon Object that amazingly looks like a massive ship and casts a shadow . . .

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



And there are many official images of said object in the NASA archives, yet all are amazingly at low res. Why? And why the heck do they keep taking images of said object and fly right over it and take even more? Yep, it is just an uninteresting ridge next to an impact crater. C'mon. Something is there that is massive.

I just want the same region at hi-res using the new LRO images. Is that so much to ask? I'm not asking NASA to interpret them. Just release the dang images.



Regarding the image of the massive "3D golf ball" on Mars . . . Someone said how do we know it wasn't taken in someone's backyard?

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/m15012/m1501228.html




Once again, I'm not asking for NASA to interpret, I just want the MRO HiRISE images released publically of said region on Mars and let us have a detailed look-see. Again, is that so much to ask?

I want to be able to dial in and look at the detail, just as we now can do so for the Apollo Mission sites and see the Astronaut foot paths in the Lunar regolith. But I want to be able to do so for these 2 very interesting regions. One on the Moon, and one on Mars.

And make these images public so everyone can have a detailed look-see, not just a few people. Why not do so with the entire archive of the newest images? Make it a searchable database by lat./long. We paid for it. These images belong to the people.


WBraun

climber
May 4, 2010 - 09:53am PT
Ah yes, stupidity the big bad climber says ...

Another F word, ... faith.

Just see the climber have faith that he'll make it to the top of the big mountain.

Then when he reaches the top after all that suffering only to come back down and start all over again because he never found the real answer.

Stupidity ...... it swings in every direction.

Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 10:57am PT
I am over here weld_it. what's your question? I have some myself. Where did that donini person run off to? it seems like he was going to help me.

I'm not mexican though.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 4, 2010 - 11:14am PT
"I would think in terms of conversion of mass into energy at 90% plus efficiency."

hmm, hydrogen fusion to helium (this powers the Sun) is the most efficient conversion of mass into energy we know about. What do you think that efficiency is? (answer 0.7%)

"A year of 1-G acceleration gets you close to the speed of light,"

OK, but don't forget F=ma. And when you are calculating the force to generate your 1-G acceleration don't forget special relativity! mass(relativistic)=mass/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)

This last equation as v approaches c is the big problem.

EDIT: However, I bow to DMT's post. I'd love to be able to see the equivalent of Wikipedia a thousand years from now. Who knows what we are going to know about the Universe then.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 11:37am PT
Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.

Funny, I was having a randomly opposite thought last month as I looked out the window on a transcontinental flight. A relatively new 737, it was. If my younger self could time travel from a seat on one of the first jet airliners, a 707, half a century back -- I think I'd be surprised and disappointed by how *little* has changed.

The speed of sound is still there, the stratosphere is still thin, and it still ain't practical to fly an airliner any faster or higher than it was in 1960. Not only that but they *look* almost the same, apart from having 2 engines instead of 4.

Similar thoughts looking around at a highway or a home -- so much has not changed, where did the future go? Biggest change might be the digital stuff (now Avatar, that looks different!), but it's not so obvious at first. Lots of everyday mechanical things, from our cars to telephones and tvs, show incremental improvement but fall miles short of the Jetsons. And it's clear now that we're never gonna get there, never ride that spaceliner to Mars. Much less Alpha C.

Alas.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 4, 2010 - 11:51am PT
I don't know Chiloe, I think you need to think about 100 and 1000 and 10000 year increments.

On the other hand, it is hard for us humans on our little speck out in the boondocks of the Galaxy to get a real sense of the huge scale of the solar system, much less the solar neighborhood or the Galaxy. Human space flight to Mars is a huge challenge. It is really beyond anything we can imagine doing right now to travel to the nearest stars. But, wait 1000 years and the story will be different for sure.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 11:56am PT
Hi Jongy, I stayed up almost all night last night making Elmer's glue Kitty Litter holds. The first batch came out not so good, so I used a different type of kitty litter, Fresh Step instead of the bulk stuff from the PetCo. It has a great consistency and the finished holds released from the jello molds perfectly. Right now I am heating them with a butane torch to see if I can get them nice and sticky.

I sent an email to donini asking if he preferred yellow glue or Elmer's but he hasn't gotten back yet.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
It is really beyond anything we can imagine doing right now to travel to the nearest stars. But, wait 1000 years and the story will be different for sure.

For sure, it will. One way or another.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
Here are two jello molds I used that were inspired by this awesome thread.

My woody is looking dab!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 4, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
The physics of human interplanetary travel is daunting, but it appears that it would be feasible with current technology for humans to travel to Mars and to near Earth asteroids, at least.

The physics of human interstellar travel is insuperable, given our present and foreseeable technology, and understanding of the universe.

It's great fun reading science fiction, with all the wonderful ideas and technologies it talks about. But it's fiction.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 4, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
We wouldn't need to run away to the stars if we'd paid any attention to Thomas Malthus from the get-go.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
Quite a few folks here confuse fiction and fantasy with reality whatever the subject.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
I don't know what you mean by weeded out. Am I not welcome here? I thought I would be able to get some good information on creating plastic hand holds, because SuperTopo is where all the best climbers post.

Rock jock is a term we use in the gym a lot. Do you have a lot of experience with comp climbing? That is the kind of climbing I love, it's the hardest type of climbing and takes the most dedication.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
Flashy P, Flashy P look before you leap. You might want to do a little reading about alpine climbing before you talk about difficulty and dedication.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
You're right, I will. Do you have any mag recomendations? I read a lot of Urban Climber and RocktPunkt, RocktPunkt I only look at the pictures. There was a rad send in Tyrolia by Gunter Funchtengh last month.

You have to train so hard to be dab on the woody. It look like when you are going on snow climbs you need to camp out a lot, that would be fun. I don't think you need to train as hard as you do for comps though.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 4, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
Theories are, well just very well-educated opinions, right?

For the last 70 years we have roughly based our understanding of relativity off Einsteins General Theory of Relativity.

It's a theory describing gravity as a geometric property of space and time.

However, it does not fully connect or answer the fundamental question of how general relativity can be reconciled with the laws of quantum physics to produce a complete and self-consistent theory of quantum gravity

For the most part, most of Einstein's theory has been been confirmed via observation or experimentally, however it is not the only theory on relativity of gravity.

It is by far the simplest, yet most consistent.

Is it the complete picture? No. It is a well-educated and formulated opinion that is mostly correct


Another example. Let's take a look at:

Mass-energy equivalence (part or relativity):

which we famously know it as

E = mc2 where energy and mass are equivalent and transmutable.

Basically states that any given amount of mass is equivalent to a certain amount of energy, and vice versa.

E=mc2 also is a basis on the interaction of matter and nuclear processes.

However matter is poorly understood, we have only rough understanding.

E=mc2 only explains the origin of energy of nuclear processes, not the origin of the energy.

Regardless, Einstein was the first to establish this theory just as Newton was one of the first to establish the theory of Universal Law of Gravity


The point is not to say E=mc2 or general relativity is right or wrong, the point is to realize that great ideas and understanding is based off "well-educated opinions that help point us into the right direction"

Einstein tweaked, refined, and based his understanding of general relativity off Newtonian gravitational laws, Lorentz's transformation, etc. to come up with world defining equations.

But that's it folks, not an end-all, be-all answer, it's a "guiding point in the right direction" a basis to be expounded upon, explored, refine, and if need be *gasp* changed

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Test-That-Proves-General-Theory-of-Relativity-Wrong-20259.shtml

Theories is how we learn and try to understand our world by refining, tweaking, digesting, regurgitating, incorporating ideas & most importantly imagining.

Imaginative well-educated opinions built upon other imaginative well-educated opinions.


“If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it, we can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.” -Albert Einstein


Cheers






LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 4, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

No matter how logical or how illogical it is.

I think both are needed or else we're stagnant.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
RokJox, thanks for your post. I knew you must be a comp climber. Maybe I'll try to comp in the Pocatello Pump next year, is the prize money good?

Have you ever won a comp before? You sound experienced. Will you tell me what holds are the best to train on for the Pocatello Pump? Do they use a certain brand or do they make their own plastic handholds?

I'm in a 4 day a week training cycle right now, I do Pilates and weights on the days off. I got a new creatine shake that is really bulikg my laterals up but may be giving me too much calf muscle. I measured them last week and they are 1/4 inch bigger this week.

You really do have to train much harder to comp than to climb outside, and the rope skills you need are way more serious.
scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 4, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
Weld_it,


you really must control your enthusiasm for natural plastic holds.
Leave that for Jongy and Flashy P.
You must not dilute your essence, so to speak.
Remember, school is almost out.
Concentrate on improving your shunts, so you and Lost Arrow can go up on
El Cap and Kick Some Asss.

Remember this mantra:

Welders Are Rad
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 02:10pm PT
Some comp names are real funny. The Ein Fahrtung at Huchster Palak in Dresden is really funny. They use homemade hold holds molded from local climbs, then recreate the exact climb indoors. Good prize money, scoring Euros is way more dabbed than dollars, it's 3 for one. I paid for almost half my airfair last year with my second place win.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
That was ONE LUCKY KID!

Hah, old enuf to recall Pan Am at Idlewild!
And when Connie's and Electra's were the cool thing before that. Never flew those but I could still spot one in a flash, head's full of clutter like that.

But that 737 last month, I know it's just an econoboxed 707 in its heart.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
HFCS,

Lay off the corn syrup.

Man what a rant.


Perhaps you would like to rant about Sir Isaac Newton writing and having the following book published after his death. He didn't want to hear the rantings of someone like you. Step out of the box and take a chance. Doing so leads to discovery. Go ahead and ridicule Sir Isaac. I dare you.


Been on my Amazon.com wish list for some time. Haven't read it yet but I certainly intend to. Don't give me those weak arguments about how he had to believe because everyone else did around him.

No Sir Isaac thought for himself.

Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John [Paperback]
Isaac Newton (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Observations-Upon-Prophecies-Daniel-Apocalypse/dp/1449599699/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3E6WC5ZCI13FO&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

This is the same book in which he predicts the end of the World to occur in 2060 AD.

Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
RokJox sounds dedicated and driven. My bud Doughboy is the dabbest comper I know. He's under 3% body fat, I've seen him go2 days without eating, then carb load and caffeine binge,then crush at a comp.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
May 4, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
This thread is about spacemen!

We're all spacemen on this bus.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
I like to show up at local comps and crush, it helps the climbers who live there realize that they need to dedicate more to the sport if they really want to succeed. 30% body fat is a lot RokJox, your Doctor must have measured you wrong, because that would make you obese, and there is no way that you could win the Pocatello comp if you were fat!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
I'd say the question is whether comps eventually get you off the planet, ground under the next glacier, or consumed by an uber CA-MRSA. Also not sure if placing high is really a case of advancing the species.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
I'm not sure I understand. As far as the evolution of climbing goes, I bet in another 100 years that everyone will climb indoors because the outdoor cliffs just won't be hard enough anymore, and people will still be dabbing huge.

But what about making plastic holds? There has to be someone with a good recipe out there. I just tried to bolt on my new kitty litter holds and they crumbled when I drilled them. Should I use epoxy? That might be slick and it has not natural ingredients in it.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
I am not a mexican.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
That hold is dabbed! You could put it on a runout where the last bolt is about knee level and you have to reach.

Jongy, are you like Central American? You guys are super strong on the greasy holds. Training in the humidity is hard. I even run a dehumidifier in my woody room and an air filter so the chalk doesn't affect my performance. I'd like to make home made natural chalk too.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 4, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
I am amazed that this thread blew up like this.

Inter-terrestrial beings on the moon to escape God flooding the Earth???????

Guess I should start putting more bullshit in my TR's if I want to generate more discussion.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
My mom is mexican indian and pops was from New Zealand. Pops lives in Chattanooga now though. I was born here in Juarez. The best rock climbing is indoors. I climbed my first 5.13 indoor rock climb when I was 17. Lot's of sex since then has kept me feeling young and in shape. Thank you for asking.

My first All Natural Hold. It's a sloper and I like slopers. I have small hands.



Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
Gorilla Glue, I never heard of that but it sounds good for climbing. Using that dung and a coconut shell make that a really natural hold Jongy! That's really creative. I guess in a place like Mexico you have to be able to use all of your resources.
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
The sand is really natural too. I had to catch a bus across the boarder to get it. I don't have a green card so I snuck across in a suitcase. I'm little. I'm just glad I'm not in arizona where they would arrest me.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
I think I read in a mag that he was from Portugal, and did a lot of deep water soloing there. He hangs out mostly in Thailand though now.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
He said that Alpine climbing was the bomb. I think camping out is easy. I slept in my dad's volvo station wagon once at a comp in Houston behind the gym. It rained and I had the sun roof open, so I kind of suffered big time. My down quilt got damp and I stained the leather on the passenger seat. You don't have to train to camp.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
I'm seriously thinking everyone on ST suffers from ADHD. Even me sometimes.

What were we talking about again?
Jongy

Gym climber
Ciudad Juárez, Ch Mexico
May 4, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
my all natural climbing holds
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 4, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
Kinda seems like they've been sniffing the glue.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
I like the talking about holds and comping, because that's where it's at. With RokJox and donini here I feel like I can learn a lot about diet and from Jongy I can learn about making due with what you've got. I still say that comping is way more core than camping, even if you're camped on a mountain top.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 4, 2010 - 05:44pm PT
Wow- those are some cool tools. I wish I had tools like that. I bet I could get my handmade plastic holds really sticky with that.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 4, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
Good idea on the metal poop toob bro! Way more bomber.
Plastic is ghey.
Is that a TiG?
What kind of rod you using?

Edit: With the 3 of you guys on el cap, you might want to make it bigger.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 01:18am PT
Oh-kay, ladies and gentleman . . .

Here are some things to watch that go into the Hidden History of the Human Race. Not all of this is true. But you have to admit that we do not know our history very well. There are many discoveries that modern Archeology, and Anthropology can not explain, and often times ignores. I find it fascinating to think about.

Something is up. We need to know. Ask questions and seek answers.


The Hidden History of the Human Race:
http://projectavalon.net/lang/en/klaus_dona_en.html
http://projectavalon.net/Klaus_Dona_2.mp4

Ancient Aliens:
History Channel - Ancient Aliens (2009 Version) This program reveals that although alien sightings have become a big part of modern pop culture, they're nothing new. For thousands of years, people all around the world have pointed to the skies and seen incredible flying objects. Dramatic re-creations, historical artifacts and interviews with leading UFO experts make a case that alien life forms have been in contact with Earth since ancient times. David Hatcher Childress, Erich von Däniken, Michael Cremo, Jason Martell and many others interviewed.
URL:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RedIceHenrik#grid/user/0A4A2BD944FF646C

Ancient Aliens - (Fallen Angels) History Channel Documentary
http://uk.video.yahoo.com/watch/3848169/10503196

Japanese Atlantis – Japan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIu2rA0yd9s&feature=fvw

Fascinating Ancient Egyptian airplane yacht and helicopter etched into 2000 year old tomb Ancient Technology Or just hieroglyphics?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkmzftJkbE

Volare: Discovering Ancient airplanes!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yvfxWWF8YM&feature=related


evidence for giants nephilim rephaim anunaki part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63lhtx2q8o&feature=related
evidence for giants nephilim rephaim anunaki part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18CY7ZaCfzY&feature=related

Forbidden History of The Nephilim Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek4F65iqQBk&feature=related
Forbidden History of The Nephilim Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxygR6gtYUE&feature=related
Forbidden History of The Nephilim Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRy96RPX4rE&feature=related
Forbidden History of The Nephilim Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbPth0yB0A4&feature=related



Chuck Missler: The Return of the Nephilim 1/12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCk4VMTGme4

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 01:59am PT
Cosmic,

Thanks. Yes, I like Chuck Missler also.

However, I'm a Theistic Evolutionist. I am not in agreement with a young Earth. The Earth is about 4.6 Billion years old and the Universe is about 14 Billion years old. The science works. It is as old as radiometric dating indicates.

Where GOD talks about dinosaurs in the Old Testament, and he does! in Bible Code in the same exact area of the Bible it mentions Dinosaurs and the Asteroid Impact and their demise. That happened about 65 Million years ago. Michael Drosnin's book Bible Code discusses this in detail. Also Bible Code gave the exact date for the Shoemaker-Levy impact prior to it impacting into Jupiter. Amazing but true.

I agree with their faith in Jesus, GOD. But Creation Research out in El Cajon, I just have to smile and nod my head and be nice when I talk to Christians who beleive that way. My parents are that way. I have to be gentle always.

Christians have to move toward science. And Science has to move toward GOD. In the end both will be in agreement. I firmly believe that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 5, 2010 - 03:21am PT
What, No Trolls, Dragons, or Hobbits? What kind of two-bit planet is this?
willie!!!!!

Trad climber
99827
May 5, 2010 - 03:27am PT
Klimmer-

Although I am not religious and thing the bible code stuff is insane, I have found some of your "info" interesting. I sure as heck am not afraid of exploring the possibilities.

I'm really impressed with how you blow off the frat-boy onslaught and stick to your guns. And you managed to get a rise out of Ed, who as far as I can tell is one of the most laid-back hippies on earth.

Black female non-existent god-speed to you.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2010 - 03:41am PT
it's just the blind adherence to belief that astonishes me...

the bible code? same as staring at the ceiling looking for patterns... you'll find them...
willie!!!!!

Trad climber
99827
May 5, 2010 - 05:15am PT
Trust me, Ed, I hear ya. No disrespect intended.

I have marveled at YOUR ability to stay cool and factual. That's why seeing you get a little hot was noteworthy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 5, 2010 - 05:41am PT
"Fratboy" - yeah right, you just keep projecting that claptrap...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 09:22am PT
Ed,

I do respect your ability to do science and your knowledge of science. I do no doubt. Far beyond me. I have learned lots from you.

However, just patterns in the ceiling?

OK, please tell me what this perfect 3D dome is doing in the middle of an impact crater on the surface of Mars? What could it possibly be? What Geologic/Impact phenomenon would allow this to happen? We understand the physics of impacts pretty well now. It is empirical. We can measure it. We can predict the crater size from the projectlie size. And we can predict the projectile size from the crater size.

This massive 500 ft or so 3D dome on Mars doesn't fit any of the physics known. (But it would be a perfect place to build a structure).

So Ed, what is your hypothesis as to what it is? And don't tell me it is sand blowing into the crater and forming a perfect 3D dome. PPppppppppfffff.

http://ida.wr.usgs.gov/html/m15012/m1501228.html




Here is PhD Melosh's Impact Crater Calculator on-line:
http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater.html


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 09:28am PT
I wish Michael Drosnin's book Bible Code was completely on-line but it isn't. There does seem to be bits and pieces of it though.

Here is a website that has copied some sections. Too bad they didn't copy the entire section of interest though.

Talking about impacts, dinosuars and Bible Code . . .

http://www.muphin.net/biblecode/07.htm



Edit:

Actually it seems you can go chapter be chapter . . .
http://www.muphin.net/biblecode/
http://www.muphin.net/biblecode/01.htm
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 11:17am PT
MB,

Nice try. The graphic you posted is not to scale and is for complex craters. Central uplift in craters has very particular dimensions and size relative to the crater surrounding it. This is known and empirical, and predictive.

The official image I posted on Mars is a simple crater, not a complex crater.

Choose a better graphic for a complex crater that is to scale and you will see the error in the graphic you posted. There are very specific ratio sizes in regards to the central uplift and the diameter of the complex crater.

Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 5, 2010 - 11:32am PT
Damn Irish giants....... how did they get the blocks so perfect?




Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2010 - 11:44am PT
my hypothesis?
certainly looks like an impact crater to me

the morphology of craters depends on the local geology, the particulars of the impacter, the weathering of the site, etc... all of these are much more probable than concluding it is a structure built by aliens.

Further, it is difficult to tell, just from a satellite image, what is on the ground. Many images, with many different light angles, or better yet SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) images of the ground are better (wasn't there a SAR instrument on MRO?).

to my way of thinking, and I am an old fart, probably with a lot less intellectual creativity and openness then I used to have, is: impact crater highly probable, alien structure improbable.

If I were a research manager at NASA I probably wouldn't put a lot of resources (or any) into investigating such a thing.

As for the bible code, there is published mathematical/statistical literature showing that the decoded patterns are unspecific and agree with what you would expect from random coincidence. To extract prophecy from the code requires interpretation of the decoded "phrases." It is how horoscopes work, the "predictions" are so general that they can be interpreted as relevant, there is not predictive value as almost any outcome can be used to "prove" the fortune.

DMT complains that we lack imagination about the future, I suspect he thinks that some of modern physics is a bit airy-fairy... I remind you all that when Einstein formulated his "Special Theory of Relativity" it was published in 1905. The first powered air flight was in 1903. It was also in 1905 that Einstein published his explanation of the "photoelectric effect" by which electrons are ejected from the surface of a metal when light is shined on that surface. His explanation was the first application of quantum mechanics in a "modern form."

Einstein's third paper of that year was the explanation of Brownian motion, the random jittering of small particles on fluid surfaces due to the motion of atoms hitting the particle... a direct observation of atoms, if you will.

Atoms, quanta, space-time... in 1905. Most of you reading this have only a passing, superficial understanding of any of it, as you use technologies built from it, coming 105 years ago.

Don't lecture on the lack of imagination... there is a world out there which is imagined, in the same fantastic detail, and probably with the same importance 100 years hence.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2010 - 11:57am PT
May 4, 2010 - 08:10am PT
If someone told the Donner Party, at their departure from St Louis, that someday (soon) they could walk into a hollow metal tube, close the door and fly through the air, to California, in a little over 3 hours time, eating lousy, expensive food (but its not PEOPLE).

They would have and could have come up with all sorts of 'that's impossible' scenarios.

And they would have been right. But a hundred seventy some odd years later.... things have changed.

Just as our current notions of the cosmos will change. WILL change.

Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.

DMT

I refrain, usually, from stating what is technically impossible... I hate to say "you can't do that" unless well understood "laws of nature" are violated...

...and I do believe that things will change. But those seeds of change are here already...
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 11:59am PT
I got very imaginative last night while working on my home made natural plastic handholds. Some came out pretty good, and I nailed a few to my woody. They took nails much better through pre drilled holes than trying to drill out large diameter holes for bolts. I made some pinner holds but also some buckets, using molds cast from my body parts filled with a mixture of gorilla glue and kitty litter. I trained very hard last night, no comping in the near future but if I want to be a truly dedicated climber who performs at the top of the ratings scale, I need to work hard every day.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 5, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
May 4, 2010 - 08:10am PT
If someone told the Donner Party, at their departure from St Louis, that someday (soon) they could walk into a hollow metal tube, close the door and fly through the air, to California, in a little over 3 hours time, eating lousy, expensive food (but its not PEOPLE).

They would have and could have come up with all sorts of 'that's impossible' scenarios.

And they would have been right. But a hundred seventy some odd years later.... things have changed.

Just as our current notions of the cosmos will change. WILL change.

Its easy to use covered wagon technology to dismiss commercial transcontinental flight.

DMT

This statement can be used to justify the most improbable of predictions. I doesn't get us anywhere.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
has anyone else been experimenting with home made handholds? Hopefully Weld_it will get back in here and talk about his upcoming Nose climb. He is an indoor climbing, so I'm sure he will dab that send. Outdoor climbers would be way better if they'd just dedicate to being the best they possibly can and learning the skills to climb the upper grades. It's too bad they think .13 is hard and don't realize their full potential.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
In the winter of 1846-1847 the Donner Party lived their infamous encampment in the Sierra, drawn to the promise of California.

James Clerk Maxwell entered the University of Edinburgh later that year. Less than a decade later he was on the path to synthesize the work of the highly mathematical German physics community and the highly empirical work of the English physics community into what we now recognize as Electromagnetism, also Classical Electrodynamics.

Electricity and magnetism were the first forces to be "unified" in a long standing program in physics pursing the notion that all forces are manifestations of a single force, though Maxwell didn't recognize what he was initiating, not all the forces of nature were known to him then...

It is true that given the plight of the Donner party, little from this world of physics could intervene to change their fates. And what could have possibly done so, from Maxwell's contribution, wasn't available until the advent of radio, based on the research of Hertz in 1888, and applied by Marconi in the 1890s. But I still marvel over the compact radios we now all use, the application of semiconductor technologies of the last decade... and of the idea that a small radio transmitter could transmit our distress signal with precise coordinates to an international emergency response network.

That came too late for the Donners.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 5, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
but we do know what would be required for interstellar space flight

we can write the specifications, then see what the technologies would have to provide...
...once done, you can decide for yourself if it is "impossible"
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 5, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
But how did the Donner Party get the ark on the moon? Explain that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
PX,

Man that made me laugh! Lol. :-))

I seriously think that photo of the insane is a great capture of ST. He-he. Man that is the truth.

Yes, I throw out crazy ideas and then see what sticks. Asking questions and making observations is the start of the process . . .
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 5, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
Conspiracy Theories Explained
Random events are deeply meaningful to paranoid schizophrenics. Is something happening in their brains?
By Kathleen McGowan, published on November 01, 2004 - last reviewed on February 20, 2007

Paranoid schizophrenics are prone to delusions, tales in which random events become deeply meaningful. Some believe in complex conspiracies; others think they are Jesus Christ.

These stories sound crazy, but they may be the brain's efforts to make sense of its own internal messages, suggests Shitij Kapur, professor of psychiatry at the University of Toronto and vice president of research at the Canadian Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. In addition to other brain abnormalities, schizophrenics have too much dopamine. Just as addicts' desensitized dopamine systems make them feel that nothing matters, high levels of the neurotransmitter make schizophrenics believe that everything is significant.

Because the addict's dopamine-driven salience system keeps telling her that something very important is happening, ordinary events appear intensely meaningful. That police car? That song on the radio? That man with a cigarette walking by? They must be part of a massive international conspiracy.

Kapur calls it "biased inductive logic"—a top-down effort to explain the feeling that everything seems important. The cognitive parts of a schizophrenic's brain create the paranoid tale in an effort to explain the constant red alert blaring from the dopamine circuits, using any stimuli available. This is why delusions are culturally appropriate. African schizophrenics may fear they've fallen under the spell of a shaman, while Kapur's patients in Toronto think that the Mounties are after them.

Kapur cautions that this theory is still speculative, but it could support a radical idea: treating schizophrenia with cognitive therapy. If drugs control the overactive dopamine system, patients may then gradually unlearn their delusions.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
Here is a user friendly article on Simple vs. Complex Impact Craters . . .

http://www.psi.edu/explorecraters/background.htm

bmacd

Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
May 5, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
This thread reminds me of stuff I have video taped that people tell me can't possibly exist


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

The American theoretical physicist John Archibald Wheeler coined the term wormhole in 1957.

The theory of general relativity predicts that if traversable wormholes exist, they could allow time travel.

Traversable wormholes

Lorentzian traversable wormholes would allow travel from one part of the universe to another part of that same universe very quickly or would allow travel from one universe to another. The possibility of traversable wormholes in general relativity was first demonstrated by Kip Thorne and his graduate student Mike Morris in a 1988 paper; for this reason, the type of traversable wormhole they proposed, held open by a spherical shell of exotic matter, is referred to as a Morris-Thorne wormhole. Later, other types of traversable wormholes were discovered as allowable solutions to the equations of general relativity, including a variety analyzed in a 1989 paper by Matt Visser, in which a path through the wormhole can be made in which the traversing path does not pass through a region of exotic matter. However in the pure Gauss-Bonnet theory (a modification to general relativity involving extra spatial dimensions which is sometimes studied in the context of brane cosmology) exotic matter is not needed in order for wormholes to exist- they can exist even with no matter.[6] A type held open by negative mass cosmic strings was put forth by Visser in collaboration with Cramer et al.,[3] in which it was proposed that such wormholes could have been naturally created in the early universe.

Wormholes connect two points in spacetime, which means that they would in principle allow travel in time, as well as in space. In 1988, Morris, Thorne and Yurtsever worked out explicitly how to convert a wormhole traversing space into one traversing time.[7] However, according to general relativity it would not be possible to use a wormhole to travel back to a time earlier than when the wormhole was first converted into a time machine by accelerating one of its two mouths.[8]
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
May 5, 2010 - 02:18pm PT
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 5, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
Klimmer, we think your great here on our craft. I wish my son had you for a physics coach back when he was attending school, he loves stuff like this! You've met his mom, she's from Mars. She's my favorite Martian! It seems again that I am disappointed with Ed. All I can say is there you go again Ed. I gotta go cause I'm getting yelled at, keep up the good stuff. Glenn, can you please post the U-tube of John Glenn punching the skeptic? Thanks, PX
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
OK Mike,

I'm gonna make it easy.


http://www.psi.edu/explorecraters/background.htm

Simple Craters:

"The image to the left is a very simple, bowl shaped crater on the Moon and is typical of small craters that have formed relatively recently. It has a raised rim around the edge, and nice, sharp features. These sorts of craters are usually only a handful of miles across, at the most, on planets like the Earth, Mars, and the Moon."


Complex Craters:

"As mentioned before, not all craters are the same. While the smallest craters on a planet will be nice, simple bowl shapes, the medium to large-sized craters (my note: these will be miles across in diameter) will have a more complex form. Scientists refer to these as 'complex' craters. Like the crater shown here to the left, they can have ridges or 'terraces' inside of their rims with flatter floors, and a central peak, or ring of peaks.

The same goes for the lunar crater on the right. The floor is flatter, the crater rim is broken by many terraces, and the central group of peaks is in the form of a ring."


It is a matter of scale. The image of the crater on Mars is a simple crater. It is about 1500 ft in diameter. It cannot be a complex crater with a central uplift. To be a complex crater it has to be miles in diameter to have the energy necessary to form a central uplift.


I hope you are now clear on it. This is known. They have modelled Simple and Complex Craters. They are different by size in diameter, and also the Kinetic Energy involved. Only a complex crater forms a central uplift. But to be a complex crater it has to have a very large diameter. Miles in diameter, not a few 1500 ft.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 5, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
I am dismissing a prediction (as pure conjecture) that interstellar space travel is impossible.

I didn't say that - I said that interstellar travel is highly improbable from multiple perspectives. It's improbable from the perspective of a civilization acquiring the knowledge, technology and energy required. It's improbable from the perspective of a civilization surviving geological and biological events with the knowledge, technology and energy necessary for it. It's improbably from the perspective of an advanced civilization agreeing on investing the requisite resources for essentially no forseeable gain.

I said the material and energy demands necessary to source, build, and propel a craft the size of the one conjectured in the original post makes it a ludicrous proposition. I said there would be no motivation or rationale for it that even vaguely approaches a basic commonsense test. What's the payback devoting what would essentially be all of a civilization's resources over milleniums to produce a craft of that size and send it on such a journey? What sort of society could hold such a focus and get the type of agreement necessary? A doomsday scenario is the only one that makes any sense at all. Play that out, though - if we knew for sure our world would end in 3010 would we all buckle down, cooperate, and start dedicating all our resources and energy to build such a thing? Right.

And think about project management on such a gig - by the time you got a couple of generations into it would the challenges of continuity of knowledge / design / fab, qa/qc, maintaining and integrating generations old technology simply sink the whole effort?

Yeah, we built pyramids, but no one but Klimmer is suggesting anyone was talking about taking a lap around the local galaxy cluster in one.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 5, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
Clearly, Klimmer's like a modern day astrologer or National Enquirer contributor and you guys like this stuff. Entertainment value. Via Buck Rogers and Left Behind fantasy, I get it now.



P.S. To the naysayers, this photo was analyzed by Special Offices at NASA and was PROVED to be authentic in 2006. Only because of ONE courageous whistleblower of conscience does the public NOW have this photo as proof.


Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 04:47pm PT
I checked with a friend during my left hand specific crimp lock off strength training last night and donini is from Montanegro. He realized his full potential by dedicating himself to a strict diet and arms only regimine on his home made woody, he actually has some home made holds on it. He moved on to deep water soloing in Thailand where he mastered climbs up to 5.14c using no footholds, utilizing the arm skills he practiced in Montanegro. He is 31 years old, not bad for an old guy! Thankfully he doesn't comp much- he'd take a lot of podiums from me and mt friends!
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 5, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
Was Donini on the Donner Party?
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
Yes those are impressive numbers, I was told last night that he frequently pulls 5.14d with ver little work, under two weeks. He is very dedicated to echievinf his personal best and realizing his full potential. I heard he will even camp out at a crag overnight in order to spend the maximum daylight hours memorizing the holds. At 31 he doesn't have much longer as a good climber, maybe of I train hard and dedicate myself I will surpass him someday! I know im better than him probably on my woody, but he is an outdoor climber, so that is trad, carrying more than 6 draws can really bring your numbers down at least a letter grade, he must train with draws weighting him down, maybe a pound or two of draws.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
I knew it!

Ann Coulter is really kinky.


She is definately bizarre. But enough about her politics.

















Man, has this thread gone wild at times. Eyes rolling . . .
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 5, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
And get rid of their original bodies too, partly as a consequence of living longer.

Sigh...
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 5, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
Count me out of this expedition I have to bake a spacepie.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
RokJox, I just saw your post, thanks for talking with me! I can help with training if you want, weight loss is easy once you dedicate yourself! I once had a friend who was dabbing on Comme La Vache at Verdun. It has a 500 yard approach from the cars, so in order to keep his calf weight down he hired a coue of local guys to carry him in a beach chair! La Sportiva took care of the bill, it was a really impressive send, he downrated the climb to 5.14b. That isn't quite his full potential, but it still was a product of his determination and dedication, along with some crafty thinking too! He probably would not have crushed it if he had not been carried for the 3 weeks he worked the route.
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
May 5, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
The stuff from those other guys is pretty dumb but weld it is funny.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
May 5, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
"Such a fine line between clever...and stupid"--Spinal Tap
James Doty

Trad climber
Idyllwild, Ca.
May 5, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Stupid can be funny.
Flashy P

climber
Sparks, NV
May 5, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
One thing my dad taught me about climbing is that you have to have a really positive attitude about life and people in order to achieve your goals and realize your full potential. I know Tommy because he comes to some comps to be supportive and to give tips. He is very serious about his diet and training. He has achieved his fullest potential, and ge started out as a kid like me, dedicated to the sport of climbing. Maybe one day when I am old I will move on to climbing the lower grades like 5.12 and 5.13, but for now whe I am young I an dedicated to achieving my personal best. Part of that is staying positive in the face of life and training difficulties. I have read sone books that are great, I could give some titles to you, they will imefiately make you strive to shed any kind of bad feelings and help you realize your full potential.
drljefe

climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
May 5, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
sumthin don't match up roun here.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
May 5, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
Awwww Rok-ee, crying again?

Just like you to start beating up on some kid who probably takes climbing more seriously than you ever did BITD, when you were wandering around the Valley with tears in your eyes.

Who cares about your bullshit stories? Just shut up and have a glass of warm milk, cry baby.

This baby is saying: "I'm RokJox and I'm a cry-baby!"
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
May 5, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
“So Wahh, you clearly have created a special avatar just to hound me as its only purpose.”


What was the name of that nasty sock puppet that stalked Dirtineye for years? Curt didn’t know him….. but he claimed to live and climb in Curt’s area… knew all about Curt’s routes…everything about Curt’s social life…home life…his foibles …seemed only to exist to harass Curt…

…always showing up when folks were buckling Dirt into the ST dunking stool.

Wahh! is from Idaho Falls and Meatbomb lives in Boise?

Uh-huh
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
May 5, 2010 - 11:02pm PT

RokJox, the self proclaimed expert on all things scientific, furiously writing illiterate tomes, utilizing his weak high school education to try to come across as intelligent in intra-net land because in real life you're just an average everyday ignoramus as#@&%e. And we all knew it. And we still do.

But all I hear is crying.

Jennie- you're such a little do-gooder, standing up for your pal RokJox, the vessel of stupidity, ignorance and hate. Don't wear out your pretty little head thinking too hard.
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
May 5, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
It's your party, cry if you want to- you big bad bully.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 6, 2010 - 12:09am PT
what do we know about space?

well for one thing, it's filled with radiations... the sun produces a huge flux of ionizing radiation, and x-rays which are effectively attenuated in the Earth's atmosphere. Though we still are irradiated, it is not a problem living here.

NASA has an ongoing program to calculate the effects of radiation on crews operating in space, locally: in Earth orbit, on the Moon and for the flight to Mars. You can read about this online in a National Academy of Sciences report: Managing Space Radiation Risk in the New Era of Space Exploration.

But let's stretch a bit... say we can get to some velocity close to the speed of light. We know that the relatively low energy Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR), the light freed by the recombination of protons and electrons and currently at 2.725 K fills all of space, about 400 photons per cubic centimeter. The energy of this light is something like 234 micro-eV

We also know it creates a reference frame, we see it doppler shifted because our local galactic cluster is moving 600 km/s with respect to the CMBR... it takes on a dipole distribution, with the place we are headed being "blue" or high frequency and the place we are coming from is shifted "red." See this link: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/cbr.html

We can calculate the effect, the temperature is just the Boltzmann constant times the Planck constant times the frequency... to find the shift this is divided by (1 - v/c) where v is our 6E5 m/s and c is the velocity of light, 3e8 m/s... it's a tiny shift since 6e5/3e8 = 2e-3, the temperature appears to go up by roughly 2 parts in a thousand.

If you were going at a speed of .9 c, then the shift is a factor of 10... still not much of a concern in terms of radiation, the energy has gone up to 2 meV.

However, the closer you get to c the higher the doppler shift... if you were at 0.999999 these photons would be hard x-rays at 234 eV energy.... and go up some more, say 0.999999999 then we've got 234 keV photons....

Your cross sectional area is something like 1 m^2 = 1e4 cm^2, the density of photons is going up tremendously because of the length contraction of your relativistic speed, something like 22,000 times.... that is, the cubic centimeter of photons for your observation is more like 22,000 * 400 = 900,000 photons per cubic centimeter... and you're going 3e10 cm/s... the total flux of photons on you and your space craft is 2.7E17 per second.

This is quite corrosive, effectively 7 MCi (mega curies) of radiation. Nuclear reactors are designed to withstand 5 killoCi, about 3 orders of magnitude less than our space traveler going close to the speed of light.


This also produces a tremendous drag on the space craft...
...so it would appear that one cannot transition through the velocity regimes near the speed of light while executing superluminal space flight.




Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 6, 2010 - 12:46am PT
how do you shield a computer?

this is really difficult, the computers are in this radiation field too, and if you try to put more shielding you can make even more radiation... one limit to high performance computing on the surface of the earth is the radiation produced by cosmic rays interacting with the material in the package around the integrated circuits. Single Event Upsets can latchup some logic circuits in the very benign environment that we live in....

...the computers would not survive the radiation field at high speed either.

more on SEUs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_event_upset
Waah!

climber
Idaho falls
May 6, 2010 - 01:12am PT
RokJox, you go on and on and on with verbal dissentary, drizzling the Internet with ignorant sh#t.

You're an idiot. A bully. A dick. A biggot. And a cry baby.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 02:00am PT
If I could just get everyone on ST to watch this one DVD/video, then everyone would know so much more regarding the UFO/Alien phenomenon.

"Out of the Blue" is perhaps the best UFO documentary out there really. It is awesome. Disclosure has already happened, but few are listening or paying attention.

Out of the Blue
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5545276251937701731#

The US Government would like to somehow put the Genie back in the bottle, but it is not going to happen. The US Government is by far the worst in regards to the massive cover-up. They are absolutely involved and deeply, deeply involved.

Just ask the residents of Rosewell that were threatened with their lives who know exactly what they witnessed and the materials they touched and collected. This is all well documented.

The behavior of our Government screams cover-up. The UFO/Alien cover-up is way beyond anything else that our government has ever covered up. It makes 9-11 or anything else our government has hidden seem like child's play. The black budget that is involved is off the scale (trillions of dollars). Our government has been heavily involved in back-engineering, and has been very successful at doing so.

There is a secret astronaut corp. Just ask the British Citizen Gary McKinnon http://freegary.org.uk/ , whom our government is right now trying to extradite to the US. He hacked into the Pentagon looking for data regarding the UFO phenomenon, and accidently bumped into a secret classified list of all the US off-world secret astronaut corp. as well as images of UFOs.

Song regarding Free Gary McKinnon, Chicago feat David Gilmour, Sir Bob Geldof & Chrissie Hynde -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LEcrryZ3ss



To sit around and argue the physics about whether it is possible is really silly. Sure I would like to know the entire technology, the physics of anti-gravity and how exactly it works. How are these incredible speeds achieved through Space/Time? But the point is they are doing it. Those who are deeply involved in official disclosure know the truth. Our secret government has back-engineered Alien technology and there really is an Area 51. Many UFO sightings are more than likely our very own back engineered spacecraft. It is real. To sit back and say differently is really at this time with all the eye-witnesses, and those who have come out from the inside who were once involved deeply and are now disclosing perhaps to clear their conscience before they meet their maker, is ignorant.

History Channel - UFO Hunters - Area 51 Revealed 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGOopaxooWs
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 6, 2010 - 02:02am PT
^^^^^^^^^^

What Ed said.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 02:13am PT
A music interlude to calm the storm . . .

The Carpenters - Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BrSVOOK610

YES - Arriving UFO
http://tinyurl.com/256b699








It is True.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 6, 2010 - 02:31am PT
how do you shield a computer?

this is really difficult, the computers are in this radiation field too, and if you try to put more shielding you can make even more radiation... one limit to high performance computing on the surface of the earth is the radiation produced by cosmic rays interacting with the material in the package around the integrated circuits. Single Event Upsets can latchup some logic circuits in the very benign environment that we live in....

...the computers would not survive the radiation field at high speed either.

more on SEUs here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_event_upset


Actually my old housemate was working with this exact problem at Lawrence Livermore Labs.

Tha answer is to use fiber optics and use photons (aka. photonic computer)instead of traditional electric currents.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but from what I understood, the purpose of using photons is that it was not affected by radiation but rather by gravity as opposed to traditional electrical currents, which are affected by radiation.

Remarkably, last time we spoke, he said they had succeeded in not only creating a working model where one strand could contain all the information found on tv, movies, shows, radio, and large portions of the web, but that they were also trying to work on a self-contained power unit as well.

The reason was that in case any electronic equipment was to lose power or was affected the fiber optic photonic computer would continue to run regardless of the dire conditions.

WBraun

climber
May 6, 2010 - 02:43am PT
You do not travel the universe in a material body. It's too slow and you'll never make it.

Modern science is cave man style, backwards.

Real science travels the universe in their astral body.

Modern science is backwards very very crude. Cave men!

Some day modern science will wake up from their sleep.

428,000 more years to go before modern science even begins to wake up ........
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 6, 2010 - 02:47am PT
Werner, done any climbing in Markarian's Chain lately?
WBraun

climber
May 6, 2010 - 02:52am PT
Markarian's Chain is absolutely nothing compared to the real Mt. Meru.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 6, 2010 - 02:55am PT
Kimmer, so it's your conjecture that all sorts of advanced civilizations have been and continue visiting the Earth on a regular basis?

That's quite a claim given the knowledge, technology, and energy they'd all have to master. Amazing that all those civilizations could find us, launch intersteller, time traveling crafts our way - and visit on a very regular basis. All without so much a single stop at, oh say the Capital Mall.
dirtbag

climber
May 6, 2010 - 04:16am PT
A music interlude to calm the storm . . .

Good stuff.

Hadn't heard the Carpenter's song in so many years that the lyrics were completely mangled in my head.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 10:00am PT
Kimmer, so it's your conjecture that all sorts of advanced civilizations have been and continue visiting the Earth on a regular basis?

That's quite a claim given the knowledge, technology, and energy they'd all have to master. Amazing that all those civilizations could find us, launch intersteller, time traveling crafts our way - and visit on a very regular basis. All without so much a single stop at, oh say the Capital Mall.


It is not my conjecture alone. Watch completely Dr. Greer's Disclosure Project. Watch completely, Out of the Blue. Many people from inside our secret government that exists from adminsitration to administration regardless who is TPOTUS, are coming out and saying so. They are saying exactly what has been going on behind the scenes for what they have been privy to, and what they have been involved with. Like I said, they want a clear conscience before they pass away and meet their maker. I appluad them. Yes, it pisses off the powers that be. Disclosure is happening. How long will the illusion go on for? People around the world are waking up big time.

Our secret Military-Industrial-Spy complex has been involved in this and back engineering the technology for a very long time. To denie this, is too denie all the testimony from so many credible people who are putting their lives on the line. But when some of these people get up in age, after retirement, what do they have to lose? What are the powers that be gonna do? Kill them for speaking out? Rendition them to Gitmo? Torture them? Their life here on Earth is already coming to an end and they know it. Some get brave in their old age.

Do you not know about the massive UFO sighting over our Nations Capital in the 1940s/50s? Watch Out of the Blue.

Many are coming clean. It is about time.

Now as a scientist/science teacher, I have to fit all of this into my reality and ask how does it all work? Not that I'm going to talk about this with my students. I don't. But for my understanding and for my sanity, I have to try to fit this into my understanding of physics. Yes, it gives me great pause to ask how can ETs/UFOs/Aliens/EBEs do this? How can they do this with what we know to be the rules of the Universe? It gives me great pause. But they are doing it!

As a Christian, I believe that GOD exists and he is who he says he is. The Good Book says GOD is light. So perhaps he takes on the form of light. Time travel and going places at the speed of light is solved. We know that light has this ability, thanks to Einstein's Special Relativity and General Relativity. SR: At the speed of light, length shrinks to zero, and time stands still. I also believe in the Heavenly Hosts, Angels. The Bible describes these beings as having the ability to morph from one form to another. The Good book says many have entertained Angels unaware that they were doing so. Perhaps they are also light, or can take that form. Again the ability to travel at the speed of light from one place to another and stoppiing time from their perspective is then solved.

Physical creatures such as Nephilim, seem to have extraordinary intelligence and physical abilities, but are physical. I never said they could travel throughout the Universe from one star to another. I do not know. But to go from Earth to the Moon in a massive craft?, perhaps so. We have many times in the Apollo space program. To travel throughout our Solar System is perhaps very easy for them to do. Remember I said they were Intra-terrestrials and not Extra-terrstrials.

The Human Race here on Earth has a Hidden History. There is just too much that is coming out that the Archeology, Anthropology, and perhaps the paleontology worlds are bumping into that just does not fit our pre-conceived "nice" models. So it is ignored publically, but privately???

(Yet, amazingly, many professionals do indeed ingnore all of this evidence. Perhaps its because there is professional pressure to do so. It is nice to have a job and make a living. Ask questions, go beyond the established official line, the established official theories, and your job is in jeopardy. Are we so afraid of knowledge and the truth to let this happen?)
pedge

Trad climber
SW
May 6, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
God is limited to travel at the speed of light? The author of existence itself and all matter and energy subject to the condition of being or nonbeing can only be in one place at one time and has to move back and forth at the speed of light? God is located somewhere within the time and space universe he created?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 6, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
428,000 more years to go before modern science even begins to wake up

At that time, they might just call the 20th century the year of enlightenment where man finally stopped buying into mythology and started to look at things with open eyes.

Oh, sorry. They will look back at this time and say, "What were they thinking with all that mythological crap and superstition based on crude emotional responses to anything they couldn't explain. What a bunch of cave-people."

I guess I agree that we are like cavemen but disagree that it is the scientists who are in the caves. The scientists are trying to get out of the caves and there seem to be idiots who just seem to want to stay inside because of fear of change.

Dave

P.S. To say that we are scientifically like cavemen and then go on to make claims about how we can and can't travel the universe is a bit hypocritical. If we are like cavemen then we can't know or imagine where we might be or how we might get there in the future. Even the enlightened sounding of us can't know or even imagine it since an enlightened caveman is still a caveman.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 6, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
Religionists aren't fools. Anybody who can convince themselves that there ISN'T a God, can convince themselves there IS one.

Any scientists who claims that there is no God is not a scientist and is an ass. A true scientist would, at best, suggest a possible probability of it and admit that a complete lack of testable information makes it impossible to tell if there is or is not a God.

I am an atheist but only in the sense that I do not follow nor worship any God or accept any mythology. I only suspect, based on my interpretation of the evidence, that there is no God, but have no way to know for sure.

The probability is so low scientifically that believing (not knowing) that there is no God makes some amount of sense and is not the same as believing that there is one using that same evidence.

Dave

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 6, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
how is it that there is no evidence, other than personal witness, of the existence of UFOs?

it cannot be true that all of the physical evidence has been collected and impounded.

witnessing can be compelling, convincing, genuine, but utterly wrong...
...as I'm sure it is in the cases purported to be "true" in the links above.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
Ed,

Would you watch Dr. Greer's The Disclosure Project, and also Out of the Blue?

These are very credible former government, military etc. witnesses. They go into how the government hides this stuff and why. Although there is no reason too unless one subscribes to the secret government's warped, bent immoral, unethical, and illegal frame of mind.

You (we) are not on a need to know basis. We are treated as cannon fodder, fools, and kept in the dark regarding many, many things.

It is a repeating and ancient story: the very rich powerful elite oligarchy vs. the sheeple, the serfs, the common man.

They do indeed hide this stuff. They do indeed threaten lives and people have been killed to keep them silent.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 6, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
You (we) are not on a need to know basis. We are treated as cannon fodder, fools, and kept in the dark regarding many, many things.

This does not just apply to governments but religions as well.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 6, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
Klimmer, et al: You should read "Voodoo Histories", by David Aaronovitch. It's even better than the Klimmer Kode.

I'd suggest that you apply Occam's Razor, but you'd probably cut yourselves.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
DR,

Agree. It isn't right.

Copernicus, Galileo, et al. know too well.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 6, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
There have been two hypotheses proposed.

1
a.) Aliens exist
b.) They have visited earth
c.) They have been witnessed
d.) There is a giant arc/spaceship on the moon
e.) There may also be a dome on the moon
f.) There is a conspiracy within the government to keep this information secret
g.) There is a "shadow" government which really makes all the decisions
h.) Biblical stories tell of these Aliens
i.) With the correct interpretation of the bible we can know the truth.
j.) klimmer, and a few others, have discovered the truth
h.) One can do the same by gathering information on youtube.com and reading the bible.




2
a.) If Aliens exist, they would never bother coming to earth
b.) Long distance space travel is unlikely given physical constraints ( the human being is an entirely physical being...yes, we know you disagree Werner)
c.) Klimmer is interpreting random events, such as shapes on the moon, as highly meaningful
d.) Aliens have never visited earth
e.) people who have seen them are genuine in their belief, but have interpreted these events incorrectly
f.) There is no shadow government
g.) In order to conclude that aliens have visited us, we need more data and information than is available on youtube.com
h.) interpreting the bible is like interpreting a weegie board, meaning that is says more about the person doing it than about anything else.
i.) Conspiracy theorist generally have an aggrandized view of their knowledge about the world.
kbstuffnpuff

Sport climber
State of Confusion
May 6, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
This thread is best read really stoned.



I'm so high.
WandaFuca

Social climber
From the gettin place
May 6, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
Klimmer, what does bible code tell us about the Ark?



Anders, they don't allow razors in some institutions.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 6, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
I'm gonna go out on a limb and go with theory #2.

BTW...
Has anyone bothered to download the actual MOLA data and done a 3D reconstruction of that crater?
What are the actual Latitude and Longitude coordinates of that crater?
If we know that, we can easily download all the data NASA has for that spot.
There are many different data sets to select from.
Instead of relying on visual data, like the MOC images that were posted, which is often distorted, try using the actual altitude data.

MOC = Mars Orbiter Camera
MOLA = Mars Orbiter Laser Altimeter

Here is the site where the data sets are available for download...
(caution, there is lots to choose from)
http://ode.rsl.wustl.edu/mars/


Edit: Did you happen to read the disclaimer that goes with the crater image
you posted?

NOTE: THE BROWSE (JPEG) IMAGES RENDERED ON THIS WEB SITE ARE MEANT SOLELY TO FACILITATE THE SELECTION OF RAW MOC IMAGING PRODUCTS FOR DOWNLOAD AND USE BY THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. THE BROWSE AND JPEG IMAGES ARE NEITHER RADIOMETRICALLY NOR GEOMETRICALLY ACCURATE AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED FOR QUANTITATIVE OR INTERPRETATIVE PURPOSES.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 6, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
I'm sure there is hidden stuff,
but not everything can be hidden,
and all there is, witness, is not reliable even if it is honest.

Speak for yourself on access issues. Don't assume.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 6, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
So who's seen one? Fess up!
kbstuffnpuff

Sport climber
State of Confusion
May 6, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
I have totally seen an alien spacecraft. More than once dude, and it's way cool.


Only when I'm really high though.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
I'm sure there is hidden stuff,

I agree.

but not everything can be hidden,

I agree. Much has been seen. Much has been confiscated. What can't be confiscated, such as a massive craft flies overhead and everyone in Phoenix sees it, "The Phoenix Lights" the government just stays mum. Many images were taken of this massive craft and its lights. Imagery is physical and empirical evidence. This is physical evidence plus eye-witnesses. When asked directly, the official answer is no answer. Even the governor saw the massive craft and couldn't get Uncle Sam to admit it. The Men in Black official response: "Some kind of aircraft and flares" PPpppppppffffffttt. Yea, rrrriiiigggghhhhtt. Yet, military aircraft were scrambled and it was witnessed that these scrambled jets went right after the massive witnessed craft and those smaller craft darting around the larger craft.

and all there is, witness, is not reliable even if it is honest.

I do not agree. A group of people see a man run across a public space naked, and he turns toward them and makes some very rude and innapropriate gestures, and they watch him dart around the corner. Now after the eye-witnesses pick their jaws off the ground, they realize not one of them had the time to take a picture, it just happened too fast. The man ran around the corner out of sight. Once they come around the corner, they see the same man with a pair of shorts on and a t-shirt. If the group of eye-witnesses take this man to court, can this man be convicted of public nudity and indecent exposure? I believe they can, and could very likely win.

Speak for yourself on access issues. Don't assume.

So Ed, what are you trying to say?

Do you know something regarding all of this? Do you have access? C'mon now ;-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
Yes. I know the approximate location.

But the crater does not show up in Google Mars. For some reason, in Google Mars they have kept the resolution very low, with the exception of some specific images. HHHhhhhhhhhmmmmm. Why is that?

I'm not at home at the moment. On Google Mars I have the approximate region on the narrow strip outlined to the best of my ability.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 6, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
Dude, think about it....those are sand dunes.
Snow would be on the rim, not on the bottom.
Most of the highlighting you see is from the ejecta, which is mostly freshly exposed material that is lighter in color.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 6, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
Not buying sand - looks like snow or ice to me...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
Rokjox,

Excellent work. Just got home and took a look. Yep you located it. Yea, they have posted a MRO HiRISE image of said crater. Wow! Good find.

Didn't see that ever before. They probably got a lot of questions regarding it to do so. Cool.

Well, it looks to be all natural. The patterns in the depositional(?) dome structure whether sand, or ice (CO2 or H2O(?)) seems to be all natural. The MRO HiRISE image does seem to flatten the dome, in comparison to the MOC image though. Perhaps due to distortion removal and image rectification. (I agree it does look more like ice with the extensive sun-cup pattern).

It seems they have another coordinate system they are using for longitude as you have pointed out. The one that Google Mars is using which has been the case for a long time, zero longitude goes right through Cydonia region. The significance of which has not been lost on anyone. Why the new coordinate system? I don't know. Maybe having Cydonia on 0 degrees Longitude draws too much attention to it.

Cydonia, the Greenwich of Mars. Lol.


Ok, moving on. Good work Rokjox.



Edit:

Now can and will they do that for the structure on the backside of the Moon with LRO?
divad

Trad climber
wmass
May 6, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
Looks like a hole-in-one to me.

Is it a Titleist?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 01:11am PT
For Phantom X,

You asked about the Astronaut punching a journalist? It wasn't John Glenn but Buzz Aldrin.

I don't condone violence, but man this guy really got in his face and called him a . . . well, you take a look-see.

Buzz Aldrin punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU



(What isn't known, is that the journalist really told him that UFOs are not real, and that he doesn't really "know" that Aliens exist. HINT: DO NOT TICK-OFF BUZZ LIGHTYEAR, ER . . . I MEAN BUZZ ALDRIN.)



(Ok, that was a joke. I made up that last part regarding Buzz and UFOs. lol.)


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2010 - 01:15am PT
So, do you believe Buzz Aldren? and if so why? It seems right up your ally to believe it was all faked.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 7, 2010 - 01:20am PT
Buzz Aldrin regularly gets public standing ovations, in part for his all-American response to the idiot that told him he hadn't gone to the Moon. Aldrin was 72 at the time. Both police and prosecutor refused to consider charging him with assault, given that the nutjob was very aggressive. And I guess it would be impossible to find a jury in the US that would convict him of popping the guy.

Buzz Lightyear really is named for him. No royalty, though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Aldrin
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2010 - 01:23am PT
This is even better. Its from the Ali G show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTKedyQQkZQ

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 01:39am PT
Port,

Empirical evidence matters. Science matters. There is a plethora of evidence we went to the Moon. I have never doubted that. Never. I watched Apollo 11 on TV as a boy, and remember Neil Armstrong stepping onto the Moon. I watched it live.

But I have listened to the arguements that we didn't go (I do try to look at both sides of the arguement always) and found all very lacking and distorted. Even at Houston in the Historic Space Command Center on tour I was the brave one in the crowd and asked, "Some say we didn't go the the Moon and that it was all faked. Some point at the flag on the Moon as though it was waving in the breeze. What do you say to people who point out this unusual phenomenon?"

The tour guide didn't flinch. He was prepared. He heard it before and apparently many times. First of all they purchased the nylon flags at a hard-ware store near Houston Space Command. And the nylon flags had been folded up tight for the journey to the Moon. On the Moon in reduced 1/6g gravity, unfurling the flag, the nylon had memory and with no atmosphere, and no friction the flag acted as a spring and moved back and forth, lightly bouncing due to this spring memory effect.

Mystery solved. All the supposed evidence that we hadn't been to the Moon can be debunked as simply as the unusual flag phenomenon.

I have another form of evidence, but you probably don't want to hear it. But what the heck. The Apollo 11 mission, Man first walking on the Moon is celebrated in Bible Code. Believe it or not.


http://www.muphin.net/biblecode/01.htm


"But man's triumphs, like the Moon landing, are also encoded. "Man on Moon" appears with "spaceship" and "Apollo 11 ." Even the date Neil Armstrong first stepped on the lunar surface, July 20, 1969, is in the Bible.

Armstrong's words, "One small step for a man, one giant leap for mankind," are echoed by the hidden text of the Bible. Where the date he set foot on the Moon is encoded, the words that cross "Moon" in the Bible are, "Done by mankind, done by a man."

It is all encoded in Genesis with "Apollo 11," at the point where God tells Abraham, "Look now toward Heaven, and count the stars, if thou be able to number them." "
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 7, 2010 - 01:56am PT
Thank-you for those links Klimmer and Port. So the moon landing was a fake all along! I have to say I had my doubts. Never believe an astronaut.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 02:29am PT
PX,

Yea. You got it. I said it was all hoaxed.


Lol.

















(Uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh! Dear GOD, give me patience.)
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
Pate
"Your mouth never is connected to your brain at all is it Pate?"
"Sh#t just comes out, and you never even bother to listen to it yourself."

Who cares what Rocky wrote back there, you've just been "owned", Pate

LOL! hahaha
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
My fellow Neanderthal brothers and sisters, can we just get along and talk about substance please?

It's so easy even Supertopian Neanderthals can do it!
scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 7, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
I think that golf ball on Mars looks more like Kitty litter than snow.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
and found all very lacking and distorted

This is exactly the way I feel about your arguments for shadow governments and spaceships on the moon.
WBraun

climber
May 7, 2010 - 03:55pm PT
Pate

Nothing you say here nor anything you do from here on
will change that you've been owned .....
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
May 7, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
Port- Hey, I like the way you think!
I remember your Keeler post on my Mithral
Dihedral TR. You interested in any CTC in the
Whitney Portal area this season? maybe a
repeat on the Needle? PM if interested.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=945823

FL
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
"and found all very lacking and distorted"

This is exactly the way I feel about your arguments for shadow governments and spaceships on the moon.

Port,

Well, please take it up with all the insiders coming out and saying so that come from government, and military from around the world and as well as here in the US.

I gave you resources:

Dr. Greer's: The Disclosure Project

Out of the Blue


Truth sometimes is stranger than fiction.



I'm sure this bends your reality, your world view, and difficult to hear and take. It was for me too when I first learned about it. I understand. It will take some time . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
Pate,

Have you ever looked into getting some professional therapy, some professional help? Seriously, like anger management?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2010 - 05:59pm PT
Klimmer, you sound kinda condescending. And for me, its not about time but more evidence. I am trying to keep an open mind. Heres a list of people that support the moon hoax conspiracies. Their methods resemble some of yours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories#Hoax_proponents_and_their_proposals

Hoax proponents and their proposals:

* Bill Kaysing (1922-2005) an ex-employee of Rocketdyne,[26] the company which built the F-1 engines used on the Saturn V rocket. Kaysing was not technically qualified, and worked at Rocketdyne as a librarian. Kaysing's self published book, We Never Went to the Moon: America's Thirty Billion Dollar Swindle,[15][27] made many allegations, effectively beginning the discussion of the Moon landings possibly being hoaxed. NASA and others have debunked the claims made in the book.
* Bart Sibrel, a filmmaker, produced and directed four films for his company AFTH,[28] including a film in 2001 called A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon,[29] examining the evidence of a hoax. Again, the arguments put forward therein have been debunked by numerous sources, including Svector's video series Lunar Legacy,[30] which disproves the documentary's primary argument that the Apollo crew faked their distance from the Earth command module, while in low orbit. Sibrel believes that the effect on the shot covered in his film was produced through the use of a transparency of the Earth. Sibrel was also famously punched in the face by Buzz Aldrin[31] while accusing the former astronaut of being "a coward, and a liar, and a thief." Sibrel attempted to press charges against Aldrin but the case was thrown out of court when the judge ruled that Aldrin was within his rights given Sibrel's invasive and aggressive behavior.[32]
* William L. Brian, a nuclear engineer who self-published a book in 1982 called Moongate: Suppressed Findings of the U.S. Space Program, in which he disputes the Moon's surface gravity.
* David Percy, TV producer and expert in audiovisual technologies and member of the Royal Photographic Society, is co-author, along with Mary Bennett of Dark Moon: Apollo and the Whistle-Blowers (ISBN 1-898541-10-8) and co-producer of What Happened On the Moon?. He is the main proponent of the "whistle-blower" accusation, arguing that the errors in the NASA photos in particular are so obvious that they are evidence that insiders are trying to 'blow the whistle' on the hoax by deliberately inserting errors that they know will be seen.[33]
* Ralph Rene - An inventor and 'self taught' engineering buff. Author of NASA Mooned America (second edition OCLC 36317224).
* Charles T. Hawkins - Author of How America Faked the Moon Landings,
* James M. Collier (d. 1998) - American journalist and author, producer of the video Was It Only a Paper Moon? in 1997.
* Jack White - American photo historian known for his attempt to prove forgery in photos related to the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy.
* Marcus Allen - British publisher of Nexus who said that photographs of the lander would not prove that the U.S. put men on the Moon. "Getting to the Moon really isn't much of a problem - the Russians did that in 1959 - the big problem is getting people there."[34]
* Aron Ranen - Directed Did We Go?, co-produced with Benjamin Britton and selected for the 2000 "New Documentary Series" Museum of Modern Art, NYC, the 2000 Dallas Video Festival Awards and the 2001 Digital Video Underground Festival in San Francisco. He received a Golden Cine Eagle and two fellowships from the National Endowment for Arts. Ranen states in Did We Go? "at this point right now I'm about 75% believing we went". On July 20, 2009, Ranen appeared on Geraldo at Large to argue that no one has landed on the moon.
* Clyde Lewis - Radio talk show host.[35]
* David Groves - Works for Quantech Image Processing and worked on some of the NASA photos. Notably he has examined the photo of Aldrin emerging from the LM. He said he can pinpoint the exact point at which an artificial light was used. Using the focal length of the camera's lens and an actual boot, he has calculated, using ray-tracing, that the artificial light source is between 24 to 36 centimetres (9.4 to 14 in) to the right of the camera.[36] This corresponds with the sunlit part of Armstrong's spacesuit.[37]
* Yuri Mukhin - Russian opposition politician, publicist and writer and author of the book The Moon affair of the USA (2006) in which he denies all Moon landing evidence and accuses the U.S. establishment of plundering the money paid by the American tax payers for the Moon program and the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and some Soviet scientists for helping NASA commit the hoax without being denounced.[38]
* Alexander Popov - Russian doctor of physical-mathematical sciences and author of the book Americans on the Moon - a great breakthrough or a space affair? (Moscow, 2009, ISBN 978-5-9533-3315-3) in which he aims to prove that Saturn V was in fact a camouflaged Saturn 1B[39] and denies all Moon landing evidence.[40]
* Stanislav Pokrovsky - Russian candidate of technical sciences and General Director of a scientific-manufacturing enterprise Project-D-MSK who calculated that the real speed of the Saturn V rocket at S-IC staging time was only half of what was declared. His analysis appears to assume that the solid rocket plumes from the ullage and retro rockets on the two stages came to an instant halt in the surrounding air so they can be used to estimate the velocity of the rocket. He ignored high altitude winds and the altitude at staging, 67 km, where air is about 1/10,000 as dense as at sea level, and claimed that only a loop around the Moon was possible, not a manned landing on the Moon with return to the Earth. He also determined the reason for this - problems with the Inconel superalloy used in the F-1 engine.[41][42][43]

scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 7, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
Paet and Klimer,
Professional help is the dabbest. Therapists rool.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 7, 2010 - 06:35pm PT
First. F*ck off Rox, If you had read all of my posts you might understand my argument. But because you didn't, Ill spell it out for you.

I KNOW that you and Klimmer don't buy into the Moon Hoax, you retard. And I'm trying to understand why you believe one conspiracy and not the other. I'm pointing out that the methods of those who "investigate" the moon hoax are very similar to those that klimmer uses. The moon "hoaxers" also believe in a very similar shadow government, just like you. So why don't you believe in it?.....And THOSE reasons are the same reasons I don't buy into YOUR bullsh*t.


Is it clear enough for your simple mind? maybe you should THINK before you get angry.

Similarities:

shadow governments control the world
Youtube videos are considered solid evidence
the work of amateur photo enhancement is considered sufficient
The moon hoax can be found in biblical prophecy


.....sounds familiar?

http://www.moonmovie.com/moonmovie/default.asp
scuffy b

climber
Where only the cracks are dry
May 7, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
Are the moon landing and the moon landing hoax BOTH revealed by Bible
Code?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
Port,

OK, I get more where you are coming from.

The Moon hoaxers believe in a shadow government, and those who believe UFOs/Aliens etc. also think there is a shadow government involved in hiding evidence and are involved with the UFO cover-up.

Well, first of all we either went to the Moon or we didn't, regardless of a shadow government. The fact that both may subscribe to the idea that there are entities of government that don't always tell the truth is besides the point. Lack of trust in governments is a whole different issue. Both sides might agree about that, but once again we either went to the Moon or we didn't. The physical evidence says we did.

If anyone had a doubt, then the LRO images has closed the door on that arguement, as well as the 380kg of Moon rocks we have brought back. The geochemistry of the Moon rocks can not be replicated here on Earth, not even in the finest labs. It can not be faked. The Moon meteorites we find on Earth match up perfectly with the geochemistry of the Moon rocks. We can go on and on. The evidence that we went to the Moon is overwhelming and empirical.

Besides, Buzz wouldn't get so upset about it if we didn't.

Lol.


I'm at school so I can't look up these youtube videos:

Someone needs to track-down the video of John Glenn on the TV show "Frazer" going on about Aliens and UFOs. That was a very funny episode, but truth is sometimes disclosed and disguised in humor. I would like to watch that episode again.


Edit:

Ok, here is the script of that show . . .
http://www.tv.com/frasier/docu.drama/episode/26491/summary.html

Glenn: Back in those glory days, I was very uncomfortable when they... asked us to say things that I didn't want to say, and deny other things... (They cut to Frasier and Roz continuing to argue then they cut back to Glenn) Some people ask, you know, "were you alone out there?" And we never gave the real answer, and yet we've seen things out there, strange things... (They back to Frasier and Roz arguing and then back to Glenn) But we know what we saw out there, and we couldn't really say anything, and the bosses were scared of this, they were afraid of "War of the Worlds" type-stuff, and about panic in the streets, and so we had to keep quiet, and now we only see these things in our - well, in our nightmares, or maybe in-in the movies, and some of them are pretty close to being the truth...



Also there is a very cryptic video of Neil Armstrong giving a public speech about truth having "protective" layers when he was talking to a group of school children. That is a very interesting cryptic speech.

Edit:
Neil Armstrong - speech (Nasa Lies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQ3U-B95es&feature=related



These guys know. They want to say it, and they do in their own ways, bit by bit. The powers that be have told them not to, but they rebel and shed truth at times.

Hey, some astronauts just come out and say it. They don't care what the powers that be have told them not to say. I admire that. Truth. Guts. Bravery.


New finds for me . . . these are must watches!

N.A.S.A. Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Admitts To Alien Contact & Life On Other Planets 1 Of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgoi3i9AgbU&feature=related
N.A.S.A. Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Admitts To Alien Contact & Life On Other Planets 2 Of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0pxPpd5AVU&NR=1
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2010 - 10:29am PT
Must see and hear the last videos with Astronaut PhD Edgar Mitchell!


I would like to hear what the doubters and debunkers have to say about this!

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
May 8, 2010 - 10:43am PT
Ed Mitchel also thinks he can heal cancer from a distance, and a 'cabal of insiders' in the US government were studying alien bodies.

Awesome source Klimmer.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2010 - 11:24am PT
Pate,

Geeee. Teachers can't have their own lives now? We must all stay in our classrooms, at all hours, and must sleep on the an Army cot in the backroom, huh? And when we are not, we better be grading . . .

I'm at school early, and I'm at school until late often (I was at school last night until 9pm, rarely do I try to do that though, finish the work and try not to bring it home).

My posts are usually before school and after school. When they occur during school, it occurs during my prep period or at lunch normally. Sometimes I can slip in a short post if the students are on a test. It is just another web-browser screen open on the computer that I have to or need to use often for many things. You'll note that I do not post on all threads, just a few. What interests me the most at the moment.

Teachers are good multi-taskers: Teaching, grading, answering emails, working with students, working with collegues, answering questions, and yes sometimes a word or 2 on our favorite forum. It is called adult interaction. Well, usually it is adult interaction. Sometimes it is no different here on ST than what I witness regarding how students interact with one another, total disrespect.

Sadly, society is modeled here on ST with all too much reality. It would be nice to see ST return to a civil discourse, with respect. We don't have to agree on anything, but we should be able to relate and follow the Golden Rule, treat others as you would have others treat you. Jesus said that.

I know that is a concept that is foreign and alien to you Pate. But there is always hope. But not much, it is slipping away fast regarding your unethical poor and abussive behavior.

Shouldn't you be working or studying or doing homework when you constantly post Pate? Perhaps you are independantly wealthy and out and about going wire-less and running your laptop off off a portable Solar panel in between climbs?


Sounds like you are bothered by it all. Sad really.


You hide this crap from your family, friends, co workers, and spew it online in a secret format.

I do?

No, I do not talk about this stuff with my students. I know my place. I know my position of authority and I do not violate the seperation of Church and State. I do make them critical thinkers. We do not know everything. Your mind is like a parachute, it works best when open. Look at all sides.

Wow, I hide this from my family? No, I do not. My wife and I were at the 50 Ann. of Rosewell just to check it out. My family and I have driven the Extra-Terrstrial Highway in Nevada and have driven up to the gate of Area 51, but of course no further. They will shoot. They post it clear as day. We even took pictures.

I hide this stuff from my friends? No, I do not. Yes, sometimes I get ribbed by them. But not mean and spite-ful.

And yes, there are some collegues whom I can talk about this stuff with openly. They have faith, and they also know our government doesn't always speak the truth. People do think for themselves. Apparently you do not.

Sounds like you are threatened by open and free thought. Sorry to hear that.

ST is a secret Forum? Geeees. No wonder I get so much flack here. My bad? I thought this was a public forum. Wow, it all makes sense now (lol). You must be an official "Men-in-Black" and on the government pay-roll. Do you get medical and dental with your government health care? Just wondering ...
enjoimx

Big Wall climber
SLO Cal
May 8, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
Klimmer, thanks. Information is never a bad thing. We can make our own decisions based on the evidence.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 8, 2010 - 02:39pm PT
All you need are people with manners and decency

And then.....


I guess in the orphanage you were raised in they couldn't use corporal punishment



You should have had your face slapped off


Bob Fellner

Trad climber
Carrboro, N. Carolina
May 8, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
Pate, you are a trolls troll, bravo man... you have perfected the art of pissing these guys off but simultaneously keeping them on the hook.

Any of you trying to combine science with religion is undertaking a fools proposition. Science is based on formulation of a hypothesis, planning of experiments to prove it, reformulation of the hypothesis based on the results and repeat... All major religions, like every other fairy tale, are based on myth and mysticism and inherently cannot be proven true only proven false and proving a negative is impossible.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
May 8, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
Science is a systematic enterprise of gathering knowledge about the world and organizing and condensing that knowledge into testable laws and theories.

Religion is a system of thought, feeling, and action....a frame of reference by which individuals may relate to their universe.

Science is a PROCESS of discovery.

Religion is a CODE of behavior by which individuals may judge the personal and social consequences of their actions.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 8, 2010 - 09:37pm PT
I heard somewhere, I think on the internet, that the moon is actually square.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 12:37am PT
Rokjox,

Mars indeed has much to tell us . . .

PX is just being funny. He is a great guy :-) One of the original Poway Mtn. Boys. He is of the Adams family Earth Clan, do-do-do-dooooo-snap-snap




Once again . . .

America’s finest and best, our US Astronauts, our space heros disclose the truth of UFOs and Aliens. Why will you doubters, deniers, and debunkers not believe them? Do we send crazy and insane people to space? If they cannot be trusted, then who can we trust? They have been told to be quiet, but they do rebel. They do talk. Truth leaks out.

Disclosure has happened. You just need to listen.

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

John Glenn on Frazier:
http://www.tv.com/frasier/docu.drama/episode/26491/summary.html
Glenn: Back in those glory days, I was very uncomfortable when they... asked us to say things that I didn't want to say, and deny other things... (They cut to Frasier and Roz continuing to argue then they cut back to Glenn) Some people ask, you know, "were you alone out there?" And we never gave the real answer, and yet we've seen things out there, strange things... (They back to Frasier and Roz arguing and then back to Glenn) But we know what we saw out there, and we couldn't really say anything, and the bosses were scared of this, they were afraid of "War of the Worlds" type-stuff, and about panic in the streets, and so we had to keep quiet, and now we only see these things in our - well, in our nightmares, or maybe in-in the movies, and some of them are pretty close to being the truth...

Commander Anders Apollo 8:
"Houston, Apollo 8. Please be informed, there is a Santa Claus.” Santa Claus was code for a UFO.
http://www.earthtothemoon.com/apollo_8.html

See: Honeysuckle Mission Day 5 – Wednesday 25 December 1968
Post Trans Earth Injection, Honeysuckle Pass 7 (as announced – must mean Pass 6 continued)
2'26" Mattingly calls Apollo 8 several times.
5'28" Jim Lovell responds, “Roger, please be informed there is a Santa Claus!” (excerpt)
16'52"Mattingly – “We’d like to try to have you manually acquire on High Gain.”
17'15" Mattingly – “Apollo 8, would you go to narrow beam on High Gain?” [Note the difference in comms quality when they do.]
http://www.honeysucklecreek.net/msfn_missions/Apollo_8_mission/apollo8_audio.html



Also there is a very cryptic video of Neil Armstrong giving a public speech about truth having "protective" layers when he was talking to a group of school children. That is a very interesting cryptic speech.
Neil Armstrong - speech (Nasa Lies)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NQ3U-B95es&feature=related

N.A.S.A. Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Admitts To Alien Contact & Life On Other Planets 1 Of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgoi3i9AgbU&feature=related

N.A.S.A. Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Admitts To Alien Contact & Life On Other Planets 2 Of 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0pxPpd5AVU&NR=1

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon July 22nd 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99C5WMrEYnw
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
Geeeee.

Disclosure has happened, and everyone just wanders away.

Crickets.

Has the likelyhood that on the backside of the Moon that there is a massive craft, has the idea, the possibility significantly increased in your mind at all?

It has in my mind.

Wow, this long thread hasn't been a waste of time. I've learned a great deal. The 3D Mars golfball is just a very unusual impact crater ice depositional feature. Unusually symetrical. Thanks Rokjox. That is something. Don't have to waste precious time considering it again.


It seems to me that more analysis of all the images of the massive Moon object needs to be done, and cross-examined and compared. Official images compared in detail to the "unofficial" images through photogrammetry.

Check to see that said region hasn't already been released in LRO images. And then if it hasn't, make the formal request. It they don't comply or share the images, then a formal FOIA request must be made.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 9, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
nothing but personal witness?
no pictures or movie footage taken by the astronauts?
no radar contact?
no radio?

nothing but something not identified... where's the contact? visual contact of what?


disclosure, not much to disclose, they saw something they didn't understand, couldn't identify, no other information.


call it what you like.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
nothing but personal witness?
no pictures or movie footage taken by the astronauts?
no radar contact?
no radio?

nothing but something not identified... where's the contact? visual contact of what?


disclosure, not much to disclose, they saw something they didn't understand, no other information.


call it what you like.

Ed,

You are not being intellectually honest.

Plenty of eye-witnesses World-wide, and not just from America's finest - our Astronauts.

You are I'm sure familiar with the science of photogrammetry. Images especially digital images are indeed empirical evidence. How do you think we know so much regarding Mars? As far as we know publically, no physical Mars samples have been returned to Earth, only analog and digital images and data. Yet we know so much through analog and digital remote sensing images.

There are plenty of images from the NASA space program. Still images and film footage. I suppose I should search for the best and post it up. There are plenty. Plenty has been leaked from NASA. There are at times brave souls who do care about the truth and let it out.

No radar contact? Yes, there has been plenty. Have you looked at any of the disclosure websites from any of the other Countries (who happen to be light-years more advanced than we are in terms of honesty) and their official government releases with what they know on-line?

Apparently you didn't really listen to PhD Edgar Mitchell and the others.

You have not been paying attention.



I suppose for some the truth of this information is a threat. It does challenge our belief systems, our limited knowledge of science, and perhaps even threatens careers? But it shouldn't.

The fact is, when everyone knows on a massive level there sure will be egg on many faces. Some who have fought so hard against this knowledge and ridiculed, and made-fun, of those who said it was real, and against those who have been brave enough and have stepped out and showed as much evidence as was possible against all the odds and ridicule, will apologies be forth coming? I doubt it. That is mean and spite-ful human nature of which I unfortunately and many others have experienced and are made to suffer.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 9, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
intellectually dishonest?...
ok Klimmer, you want to play that game you can play it alone
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 9, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
Ed, you are intellectually dishonest?

Really?

Just today, Klimmer wrote regarding me-
"I get the feeling you would be OK with rounding up those of the Jewish and Christian faiths, putting us all in prison, and then bring back the persecution."
I don't think so, I don't think you're "intellectually dishonest." Any more than I'd be OK "rounding up those of Jewish and Christian faiths" (which includes my own mother) and putting them in prison.

You just haven't had enough of it yet, the klimmershite, I guess.

Just today, the conspiracy zealot / fundamentalist Christian also wrote-
"Why do you hate GOD? Why do you hate Jesus Christ so?"

"Hate". Because I don't "believe in" God Jesus (in the same vein I don't believe in Apollo or Aphrodite), in Klimmer's mind, this translates to... I "hate" him. And HFCS is a hater.

Bottom line: Klimmer's a passive aggressive. At least in his writing. In addition to many and various other things. If there is a mystery here it is why more people don't see it. Shame. The fact that he is a science teacher in So Cal: Double shame.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
Ed,

You know I was referring to you saying "no" 4 times . . .

nothing but personal witness?

That is not true. There is physical empirical evidence. And yes it has been confiscated. They do not let UFO crafts hang around in the public domain. But there is much more physical evidence available.

no pictures or movie footage taken by the astronauts?

Not true. Yes there has been. There is plenty.

no radar contact?

Not true. Yes there has been. And other countries have officially released their studies of such.

no radio?

This I do not know about? I don't know.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
HFCS,

Your contempt for Judiasm/Christainity has been very apparent here on ST for a long time now. I'm just calling you out on it. I guess you do not like that.

I'm being passive aggressive? No. Just letting you know what you are doing. Your contempt and anger towards those of faith, especially the Judiac/Christian faith. I'm not the only one who perceives this.

I do think you have hate toward GOD. You rile against those who profess to have faith in GOD and Jesus, yet are OK when any other faith is professed.

Remember, I didn't post anything personal about you or attack you personally. Your words have been very hateful for along time here on ST toward me and a few others. You attack people personally, and post personal information, and then scream when people call you on it. You can still go back and edit what you have done. I'm waiting. I've never used profanity towards you ever. You use it against me constantly as well as others. Not only that you make many threats regarding my job, based on my faith and discussing the UFO/Alien phenomenon on a public forum.

Once again, you really do not have a clear understanding of seperation of Church and State. You want to basically fire Christians who hold a teaching career in science. Perhaps you are against any Christian or Jew holding a teaching job? I would suppose you would have had Sir Isaac Newton fired also if you had the chance. Like I have said plenty. I'm a theistic Evolutionist, but that shouldn't matter one iota. Even if I was a 6000 year old Creationist, and I'm not, as long as they keep their personal faith out of the classroom - seperation of Church and State there shouldn't ever be an issue.

Bring it on HFCS. I will happily fight you're persecution through the ACLU.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 9, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
You're flat-out lying now. Liar.

What did you call it back when? False flag operations? You're the worst kind. I'm done with you, at least in the second person, thanks for the entertainment and drama. That's enough.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
May 9, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
There have been lots of stupid threads on Supertopo. This one is high up there.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
I'm done with you, at least in the second person,

HFCS, Another cloaked threat from you no doubt.
WBraun

climber
May 9, 2010 - 11:36pm PT
"And HFCS is a hater."


Naw HFCS is not a hater, just a dumb leg humper.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 10, 2010 - 12:35am PT
"Has the likelyhood that on the backside of the Moon that there is a massive craft, has the idea, the possibility significantly increased in your mind at all?"

No, Klimmer, but the thought that you are completely crazy--that has increased in my mind quite a bit!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 10, 2010 - 01:38am PT
The existence of the entity that calls itself Klimmer, and other entities that profess similar beliefs, is proof that alien life forms are amongst us.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 10, 2010 - 01:46am PT
Mighty,
I also have proof that aliens have been hired by the IRS because they audited me and wouldn't believe what I was paying for a commercial lease in Southern California! They're here and AMONGST US!!!!!!!

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ps
I don't think we need worry too terribly much as they really don't seem very bright.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 10, 2010 - 03:46am PT
Bible Code revealed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmb35FGuqFU
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 10, 2010 - 04:40am PT
Where do the Reptilians fit into this...?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2010 - 09:19am PT
Cosmic,

You bring up a very good point.

"Images especially digital images are indeed empirical evidence."


Not if I get my hands on a digital image!



AS long as we can trust the source and we can assume there has been no manipulation of said Elecro-Magnetic Spectrum digital data within the remote sensing imagery, we can indeed do incredible empirical science with it and trust the results. Remote sensing is a wonderful and powerful science. Yes, you do need to know that your data is pure. Are there opportunities for fraud and manipulation?, sure. But we assume that that has not happened until we are shown or can prove otherwise. Depends on the source of the imagery and data.

Light indeed carries incredible amounts of information. The science Worlds of Cosmology, Astronomy, Astrogeology and on and on wouldn't exist without this very powerful tool. We can analize the geochemistry of rock, soil, the chemistry of liquids, atmospheric gases, we can interpret geomorphic features, even sub-terrainian features, and we can even distinguish between something of intelligent design, or whether it is a feature produced by natural causes.

Remote Sensing is a very powerful science. Unaltered, pure images that are not fraudulently altered are warehouses of good data. These kinds of images are empirical data and physical evidence.

Edit:

As time allows I would like to look up really good sources and post them in reference to the 4 points Ed brought up. Because that evidence does indeed exist.

Also posting links to all the official international government websites that are now releasing their studies publically would be a good thing to do. Official disclosure is happening whether you want it, like it, or not.

You better get used to the idea that UFOs/Aliens are among us . . .

(Sometimes I think the meanest EBEs are right here on ST. Lol.)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 01:26am PT
Official UFO Government Websites and Related Disclosure:

UK:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/UnitedKingdom.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/projectcondign.htm

Russia:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Russia.htm

China:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/China.htm

Japan:
(Reuters) - Yes, UFOs do exist, Japan's top government spokesman said on Tuesday.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKT37017220071218

Malaysia:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Malaysia.htm

France:
http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Gepan-Sepra.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Cometa.htm

Belgium:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/belgium.htm

Australia:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Australia.htm

Canada:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/ufo/index-e.html
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ufo/index-e.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/Canada.htm

Mexico:

UFOs - FOX News - Mexican Air Force - CNN News – OVNIs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y&feature=player_embedded#
Mexican DoD Acknowledges UFOs In Mexico
http://www.rense.com/general52/deff.htm
Mexican Government’s UFO Disclosure Video
http://www.paranormalknowledge.com/articles/mexican-governments-ufo-disclosure-video.html

Brazil:
http://www.ufo.com.br/
http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=4483
Download UFO documents released by the Brazilian Government:
http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=4438
CBU gets new batch of UFO files released by the Brazilian Government concerning the 80
Official report of a UFO occurrences of the world's most concrete surfaces
http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=4491
The importance of recognition of UFOs by the Brazilian authorities
http://www.ufo.com.br/index.php?arquivo=notComp.php&id=4590


Scientists weigh in on Hawking's alien warning
Some agree with the physicist's argument that we should avoid them, a few are sharply critical – and one sent a limerick.
By Amina Khan, Los Angeles Times
3:13 PM PDT, May 7, 2010
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-hawking-aliens-20100508,0,3179240,print.story


http://exopolitics.blogs.com/
http://www.ufoevidence.org/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 02:10am PT
Isn't it sad when people, scientists, politicians have to compromise the truth just to avoid ridicule and/or loss of funding?

Carl Sagan Knew UFOs are real - Reveals confidant, But Kept quiet viewpoint to Avoid Losing Funding
May 6, 5:20 PMDenver UFO ExaminerJeff Peckman

http://www.examiner.com/x-2024-Denver-UFO-Examiner~y2010m5d6-Carl-Sagan-knew-UFOs-are-real--confidant-reveals-but-kept-viewpoint-quiet-to-avoid-losing-funding?cid=examiner-email

http://zlandcommunications.blogspot.com/2010/05/carl-sagan-knew-ufos-are-real-confidant.html

How will mainstream science respond knowing now that a corner stone of modern science and one of its most revered members is now recognized as to have conceded - UFOs are real?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 02:21am PT
How is this whacked out specifically?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 11, 2010 - 02:26am PT
A friend of mine's uncle was a colonel who worked on Project Bluebook. He wouldn't tell him anything "and if I did you wouldn't believe me anyway."
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
May 11, 2010 - 03:04am PT
666--Kilmmer, thanks for the disclosure links from nations around the globe, sans the US of A's666
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 09:43am PT
edejom,

Wheeeeewwww! Just missed that "infamous" post number. Thanks for taking the hit. Lol.


So fellow science ST lovers, one of our most illustrious modern father figures of science Carl Sagan, admitted to a close personal fellow highly respected scientist that he knew UFOs/Aliens are real, but for said reasons wouldn't admit it publically.

So what do we have to say about that?
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
May 11, 2010 - 10:14am PT
This thread needs more BooBs!

brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 11, 2010 - 12:43pm PT
Why is every picture of a UFO so different from one another?

It must be like fricken Star Wars out there with every alien driving their own unique ship.

Even if half those pics on Klimmers websites are legit then there are sh#t tons of different types of UFO's flying around Earth.

P.S thanks for the boob shots guys....it keeps this serious thread very serious.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 11, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
OMG, it lives!
apogee

climber
May 11, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
I was going to blow this thread off completely, but as long as Pate has started adding some nice 'mountains of the moon' pics, I might check in once in a while.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 11, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
picking up on brother's points,

Its also surprising that with all the advances in video technology since the 1960s we still cant get a decent picture! (without killmer's computer rendering of course) Whats up with that? There are also video cameras EVERYWHERE now, yet all the pictures of UFOS are blurry.

brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 11, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
Yeah UFO photos seem to add no credibility to the existence of aliens in my opinion.

Also, as someone who uses photo shop and understands it's power, I not at all impressed by any of those photos nor am I certain of their legitimacy.

I actually clicked through about 100 of those photos, and I must say that if they are indeed real then HOLY F-ING SH#TE!!! It's like a Star Trek movie out there!!!

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 11, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
Here is a good link:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/58351main_apollo16_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nasa.gov/vision/space/travelinginspace/no_ufo.html&usg=__mk-h6VUmv8JEy9DuJDvfcFL92eo=&h=345&w=475&sz=43&hl=en&start=8&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=1pCR3KdyPh7fIM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3DUFOs%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbs%3Disch:1


NASA actually takes the time to debunk a UFO myth from start to finish. The only problem is that by the time they debunk the next one, Klimmer has created 5 more.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 11, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
lol Port!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
So Klimmer, you taken a look at the rills that some people have claimed are canals, and others have said are a transportation system broken and abandoned? There are several good examples on the same stereo pair that had the Golf ball.

I was thinking about blowing them up and posting them. It would go hard on the tunnel theory. The arching supports look more like curious snow than arcing braces. But the corious question still will remain as to what causes them and why there.

Canals could be close to the answer. Underground water seeping through the soil making a sticky place for water ice? Low spots along ancient river beds providing shade and shelter for the snow from the winds over huge amounts of time?

Rokjox,

The sinuous rill like structures with what looks to be depositional features with ribs at a 90 degree to the run of the rills are very interesting. I can't think of a Earth analog that is exactly the same. We are seeing natural features and formations on Mars that just make us scratch our heads and say "weird." Richard Hoagland goes into it a great deal. I dunno. Really good MRO HiRISE images of said features would be great to look at.

Post them if you got em. They really, really help.

On Mars there is some really weird features for sure in the infamous Cydonia region. Interesting how Google Mars has some of the pyramidal features all hidden by a (purposeful?) scrambled no-resolution image in said area.



Regarding those beautiful woman above . . .

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=1477
Gen.6:1-4 (KJV)
[1] And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
[2] That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
[4] There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Now you see why the Angels fell. Woman like that can make Men and Angels fall. I'm telling you gentleman, you got to be careful. Pure Krytonite. Look away, look away! Run away!

Lol.

LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 11, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
This thread needs more BooBs!

Agreed, in spirit of this thread, how bout some Alien hoo-hoos?



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 11:12pm PT
Larry King over the years certainly has made the UFO/Alien question very public.

Between the professional debunkers on the show truth still does come out. It is good to see both sides. I line up with those who are brave, facing the ridicule, and telling the truth. We do indeed hide this stuff, but it is getting harder and harder to do since more and more are seeing the phenomenon around the World. Many other countries are much more open and honest regarding this phenomenon than the US is. Perhaps the US has been lying and covering up for so long they are acting like an individual that has a serious psychosis and can't do anything but lie - pathological lying can do that.

CNN Larry King Live: UFOs Are They Out There? – pt1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4cM30r4YoI&feature=related
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW2KRzm0tvk&NR=1
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twAd7LXr-44&feature=related
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS-TO1DE8e0&feature=related
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Xk2tkyPsE&feature=related
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt6 End
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKDrqnSKl0Y&feature=related

CNN Larry King Live - UFOs: Are They for Real? . Part 1-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF_gxlpVDaY&feature=related
CNN Larry King Live - UFOs: Are They for Real? . Part 2-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzFInjXZ08Q&NR=1
CNN Larry King Live - UFOs: Are They for Real? . Part 3-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMvuzswxnZA&NR=1
CNN Larry King Live - UFOs: Are They for Real? . Part 4-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKXaUg2e-hI&feature=related

Larry King Live:UFO Debate (Part 1 Of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x84QrZxRKE&feature=related
Larry King Live:UFO Debate (Part 2 Of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sby-c9CTVk&feature=related
Larry King Live:UFO Debate (Part 3 Of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQWBQBhuso&feature=related
Larry King Live:UFO Debate (Part 4 Of 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1nxETURYSQ&feature=related


Here is the latest following the recent annoucement of PhD Steven Hawkings . . .
Larry King Live: Are Aliens a threat? pt 1/3 (30/4/2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5ehobjmVfQ
Larry King Live: Are Aliens a threat? pt 2/3 (30/4/2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UhQVT2dHXw&feature=related
Larry King Live: Are Aliens a threat? Pt 3/3 (30/4/2010)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R21rurZgi4o&feature=related



brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 11, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
So wait.......are the aliens piloting the ships extra-terrestrial or intra-terrestrial Klimmer?

How do aliens jive with the good book?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
May 12, 2010 - 12:13am PT
brotherbbock, how would you define "angel" when reading the Bible?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 12:15am PT
BB,

I'm going to assume you are really asking and not just poking fun.


So from a Christian's point of View:

Intra-Terrestrials

It is a serious question. For anyone and even Christians the idea we are not alone and that there are Aliens out there that sometimes do not do benevolent things to humans is absolutely frightening, and for good reason.

In the Good Book, Aliens are indeed discussed in Bible code:

Roswell in the Bible Codes
http://www.research-systems.com/codes/roswell.htm

Roswell - Alien Crash code
http://www.bibleprobe.com/roswell.htm


In the Good Book there is a hiearchy as I understand it:

GOD the Father
GOD the Son, Jesus Christ
God the Holy Spirit
"The Trinity"

The Heavenly Hosts:
Holy Angels and other many Wonderful Creatures of GOD





Then you have the Fallen:
Lucifer (Satan)
Fallen Angels (1/3 of the Angels)
Nephilim (Offspring of Fallen Angels and Mankind)
Demons (out of body Nephilim)



From all descriptions of the Aliens, that are not benevolent and do wicked acts to mankind, abductions, experiments, etc. against mans' will must certainly be demons.

Are there truly benevolent Aliens? I'm not sure. The Good Book says Lucifer can appear as an Angel of Light. He is the author of deception. Aliens and UFOs could be a massive last days deception to turn mankind further away from GOD. Jesus talked about this happening in the last days.

The difference is a Christian and someone who knows GOD, there are specific directions in the Good Book to test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD. There is protection, power, and safety against evil for those who know GOD and seek his help. True believers have power over Lucifer and can command him to leave from them, this would include power over those other fallen creatures also. We have power in the name of Jesus Christ.

Test the spirits to See If They Are From God
http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/spiritual-warfare/spiritual-warfare4.htm


This is all very heavy stuff. Many will dismiss it because they are not believers. But for those who seek GOD and ask GOD for help, GOD protects.


Must see for Christians:

PhD Chuck Missler: The Return of the Nephilim
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3473883928564642733#





You have to be on Guard . . .


brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 12, 2010 - 12:25am PT
Thanks...that is exactly what i was wondering

i admit I have been poking some fun throughout this thread, but i must also admit you have very compelling arguments and a plethora of information as backup.

keep up the good work. these are indeed topics i am also trying to reconcile with my faith as well. this thread at least gives some interesting points of view for me to ponder over.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 12, 2010 - 01:20am PT
As any good scientist would know, your theory or hypotheses must have predictive power. So what do you predict Klimmer, based on your belief system?

On a side note. If that big rock looking "monolith" on the moon of mars is actually a monolith, Im going to go ahead and call dibs on the FA.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 09:45am PT
Port,

The massive object on the backside of the Moon . . .

Do I really know what it is? No. Do I suspect? Yes. Have I already given my best guess (my hypothesis)? Yes. Ok, I will admit I chose the title of this thread to spark interest, because on another thread we were all talking about Noah's Ark.

But considering a very well known story now, Apollo 20, which might have some elements of truth in it, or it is all elaboratelyy hoaxed, but I seriously doubt that. Who would go to that extreme to hoax all of that elaborate imagery and video footage. Who has that kind of time to do something like that and not get any monetary return? (Well, certain agencies I know of do have that kind of budget and do have that kind of access and ability.) They did all of that for a laugh? I don't think so.

I already posted which video sequences seem real to me that were posted by RetiredAFB. So for sure some look entirely hoaxed. Some look like clay animations, but some look entirely real.

Like I said, a great way to cause doubt is to mix real with fake. Classic KKKarl Rove move. All you have to do then is point out the fake, and it puts all of it into doubt. Didn't they do that with Commader AWOL Bush's service records? Yep. Look who got burned. The info was real, but it was reproduced on fake documents/paper, and Dan Rather had to suffer the outfall. Anyone who has really looked into it with all the witnesses know the info is correct, Commander AWOL did infact go AWOL.

With the LRO hi-resolution images of said object released by NASA, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would all know already if it were a natural object (highly doubtful, since a natural object of that massive size does not come to rest peacefully on the Moon) or it is an object of intelligent design. My hypothesis is it is an object of intelligent design. It looks to be very much like a massive spacecraft. If it is a massive spacecraft about 4500m X 750m or so, then calling it an "Ark" wouldn't be far from the truth.

We will see.

By the way, if it is an intelligently designed spacecraft, I'm pretty sure they already got the first ascent in the constructing of it ;-))
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
The evidence that there is microbial cryptoendolithic life on Mars now, or at least in Mars past is mounting daily:

Favorable climate in Mars past

Liquid water in Mars past (trace amounts at least now, phoenix proved that)

Plenty of H2O ice, and CO2 ice now over many regions of the planet either on the surface or below ground

Seasonal discharges of Methane into Mars atmosphere every year

Plenty of hydro mineral evidence abounds, which would be great habitat for microbial crytoendolithic life even now

Past Mars very sensitive experiment (on Viking? in the 70s) that did indeed show a positive test result for the gas exchange for the metabolism of microbial life

Plenty of Biomorph formations within ALH84001 Mars meteorite within hydro minerals (biomorphic pure nanomagnetite crystals) and now even biomorphic formations in other well known Mars meteorites are being found


The latest Big News:

NASA team cites new evidence that meteorites from Mars contain ancient fossils
By Marc Kaufman,Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 4, 2010
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043002000.html



The evidence that microbial life exists off of Earth (on Mars) (extra-terrestrial) even within our own Solar System is mounting up. The evidence that intelligent life has been visiting Earth and observing us for a very long time is seriously here now and more and more is coming out and being officially released. Just pay attention.

Peoples' World View (their own personal reality) is about to go through a massive change . . .


Be ready. It will be OK. Hold on tight to GOD's hand.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 12, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
. The evidence that intelligent life has been visiting Earth and observing us for a very long time is seriously here now and more and more is coming out and being officially released. Just pay attention.

There is a large gap between the existence of microbial life and intelligent life that is observing us. The first part is evidenced based, the second part is completely fabricated by you....and a few others whose mental state is in question.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 12, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
Port- I admire your patience! Then again...
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 12, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
There is lots of room for not-knowing regarding what relationship or knowledge alien races might have regarding this planet.

On the other hand, anybody who thinks we are the most intelligent life in the universe is simply narrow minded. Earth exceptionalism!

For a perspective that has nothing to do with aliens, check out the extent of the known universe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jymDn0W6U&feature=related

Peace

Karl
Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
May 12, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
They're Made Out of Meat

by Terry Bisson


“They’re made out of meat.”

“Meat?”

“Meat. They’re made out of meat.”

“Meat?”

“There’s no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They’re completely meat.”

“That’s impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?”

“They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don’t come from them. The signals come from machines.”

“So who made the machines? That’s who we want to contact.”

“They made the machines. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. Meat made the machines.”

“That’s ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You’re asking me to believe in sentient meat.”

“I’m not asking you, I’m telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they’re made out of meat.”

“Maybe they’re like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage.”

“Nope. They’re born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn’t take long. Do you have any idea what’s the life span of meat?”

“Spare me. Okay, maybe they’re only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside.”

“Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They’re meat all the way through.”

“No brain?”

“Oh, there’s a brain all right. It’s just that the brain is made out of meat! That’s what I’ve been trying to tell you.”

“So . . . what does the thinking?”

“You’re not understanding, are you? You’re refusing to deal with what I’m telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat.”

“Thinking meat! You’re asking me to believe in thinking meat!”

“Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?”

“You’re serious then. They’re made out of meat.”

“Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they’ve been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years.”

“So what does this meat have in mind?”

“First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual.”

“We’re supposed to talk to meat.”

“That’s the idea. That’s the message they’re sending out by radio. ‘Hello. Anyone out there? Anybody home?’ That sort of thing.”

“They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?”

“Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat.”

“I thought you just told me they used radio.”

“They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat.”

“Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?”

“Officially or unofficially?”

“Both.”

“Officially, we are required to contact, welcome, and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear, or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing.”

“I was hoping you would say that.”

“It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?”

“I agree one hundred percent. What’s there to say? ‘Hello, meat. How’s it going?’ But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?”

“Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can’t live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact.”

“So we just pretend there’s no one home in the Universe.”

“That’s it.”

“Cruel. But you said it yourself, who wants to meet meat? And the ones who have been aboard our vessels, the ones you probed? You’re sure they won’t remember?”

“They’ll be considered crackpots if they do. We went into their heads and smoothed out their meat so that we’re just a dream to them.”

“A dream to meat! How strangely appropriate, that we should be meat’s dream.”

“And we marked the entire sector unoccupied.”

“Good. Agreed, officially and unofficially. Case closed. Any others? Anyone interesting on that side of the galaxy?”

“Yes, a rather shy but sweet hydrogen-core cluster intelligence in a class-nine star in G445 zone was in contact two galactic rotations ago, wants to be friendly again.”

“They always come around.”

“And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone . . . ”
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
There is a large gap between the existence of microbial life and intelligent life that is observing us. The first part is evidenced based, the second part is completely fabricated by you....and a few others whose mental state is in question.

Port,

So I have that kind of power to fabricate evidence that UFOs/Aliens do indeed exist, and show themselves with massive amounts of people observing? 2 quick examples: The Phoenix lights, and the O'hare Airport incidents. Both very well documented. What is the guvs response, none or we don't know.

Wow, I didn't know I could do that. I must be pretty incredible then.



Say hi to Jim L., the director of the Aztec Outdoor Adventure for me. Long time since I have come in to talk and see him. The wall you climb on at ARC was built by a fellow collegue and friend at the time when we were in "The Leisure Connection" together, Cort Gariepy (sp?). He has done exceptionally well in the Artificial Rock Climbing Wall World. He and others put Solid Rock together in San Diego. Cort and I did the Eastface of Whitney together, many moons ago. Great guy. He is a Christian also.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
Shouldn't you be teaching the next generation something Klimmer?

Ho-hum. Apparently you don't understand personal time. By the way, I'm teaching you whether you like it or not. Truth seeps in.

Shouldn't you be studying?
Binks

climber
Uranus
May 12, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
Klimmmer, you're getting closer. Yes, the aliens are real and there is some truth in what you're posting. As I've tried to tell you before the aliens are behind the debacle in the "garden of eden" when humankind's collective vibration was lowered (certain DNA strands deactivated to protect us from an alien infection). You're hamstrung mostly by your faulty conceptions of God and demons and faulty belief in the Bible as the real arbiter. The damage will be repaired soon and some people are already healed of it.

Look, the whole problem is the alien's violation of the Prime Directive. They interfered here against the rules. No, the Prime Directive was not invented by Star Trek, it is totally a real law governing the intelligent space faring races of the galaxy.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 12, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
Hey Binks I heard the Prime Directive says you suck alien balls.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 12, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
DR- That is the best post on this entire thread!
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 12, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
Its not that you fabricated the evidence, its that you've have fabricated an explanation that is preposterous given the ambiguity of the evidence. I hope that is more clear. Im sure you will argue that the evidence is not ambiguous, but it is. Thats just where we will agree to disagree....and on all that bible stuff too. As Ed has pointed out earlier, many people infer deep meaning in random events. You're one of these people. Im not.

And Jim is still at Aztec Adventures, Ill make sure to say hi for you Klimmer. Peace.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 12, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Klimmer, what are your thoughts on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Liked DR's post - who can take any of this stuff seriously? If there are space aliens of any kind, able to come to our planet, their technology would be far superior to ours.
bergbryce

Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
May 12, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
This has 700+ posts????
There is a cool episode of the 70s show "In Search Of" about ancient aviators in Peru. Quite possibly more plausable than whatever it was I saw on the first page of this thread.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
"...massive amounts of people observing..."

Massive NUMBERS of people not massive AMOUNTS of people

Don't you need to have an education to be a teacher any more?


MB,

This has got to be the most pathetic criticism ever. I'm pretty sure you know what is meant, and yes you can say "massive amount."

Now if you want to critcize my spelling, well that is another matter.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amount

a·mount   /əˈmaʊnt/ Show Spelled[uh-mount] Show IPA
–noun
1. the sum total of two or more quantities or sums; aggregate.
2. the sum of the principal and interest of a loan.
3. quantity; measure: a great amount of resistance.
4. the full effect, value, or significance.
–verb (used without object)
5. to total; add (usually fol. by to ): The repair bill amounts to $300.
6. to reach, extend, or be equal in number, quantity, effect, etc.; be equivalent (usually fol. by to ): It is stated differently but amounts to the same thing.
7. to develop into; become (usually fol. by to ): With his intelligence, he should amount to something when he grows up.




Boy talk about grasping at thin air . . .

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 12, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
Klimmer -- its a plural thing that has to do with the *noun* in the sentence-- "massive amount" is fine

number of dollars
amount of money

number of people
amount of meat (hat tip to DR's excellent post)

EDIT: Scientists and Bible Scholars have proven that people react more positively to arguments made using proper grammar. I'm just trying to be helpful.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 12, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
Klimmer,

Your conspiracy analysis on our government, science' bible and what else? I like your comment on COINTELPRO though. Cover-up’s, yes! We are good at that.

Be interesting if this thread gets close to "Why are those Rep so wrong on everything"

You are right our Government is ready. Next time you are in the valley go for a walk. Ok! No walk, park at the Church Bowl parking lot. Bring a magnet with you, does not have to be strong. Open the door, you can stay in the car if need be or get out. Place the magnet + - facing the ground about ˝ an inch. Look at the particles it picks up. Gov has spread these all over the valley so when sh#t hits the fan they will turn on their non-disclosed classified SAT payloads in space that are placed in strategic places and then charge the particles so that they will….

Hold on there is a knock at my door.

Ok, just a guy handing out free samples of a new drink, Hey! not bad, a little bitter but not as much as coffee.

So back to what I was saying.

So now or when the time comes, particles charged and then they are, thye rea I meen oure Govvvvvmir isl guimg tu........................................................................
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
“And why not? Imagine how unbearably, how unutterably cold the Universe would be if one were all alone . . . ”

Yes, I did read DR post. I get it. I laughed. Good satire. But read the last line again.


I had a couple of complete nut job teachers growing up.

Glad to see Klimmer is keeping the tradition alive.


You know someone here is gonna get the last laugh.

There are either UFOs/Aliens or there are not. The evidence is rapidly piling up in the "they are real and they are here" category.

Jesus is right or he isn't. My faith and personal experience says he is right, and I'm gonna hang out and stick with the Big Guy. I'm thinking he knows what he is talking about.




You know what I find soooo ironic and funny? If you guys really think this is all bat-poop crazy stuff and that I should be in a straight jacket and mental hospital, then why the heck do you post to this thread and communicate with someone who should be in such a hospital?

THAT IS THE REAL MYSTERY. So, apparently you guys like communicating with insane people. WHY?

I'm laughing so hard tears are rolling down my cheeks . . .
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 12, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
It is out of compassion Klimmer. We realize how important it is to you to have an audience and as we are by and large, more or less, sort of, kind and sensitive folks here we are stepping up to try and make your life better.

Turns out I am not all that kind and I usually regret getting mixed up in these dumb threads and go back delete all my contributions. It is therefore dangerous to actually respond to me by name as your response post will look odd and out of place in the future.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
It is out of compassion Klimmer. We realize how important it is to you to have an audience and as we are by and large, more or less, sort of, kind and sensitive folks here we are stepping up to try and make your life better.

Turns out I am not all that kind and I usually regret getting mixed up in these dumb threads and go back delete all my contributions. It is therefore dangerous to actually respond to me by name as your response post will look odd and out of place in the future.


Mike Bolte,

Actually I think you all respond because it does ring true. There is some truth here. Do we have it all figured out? No. But something big is happening around the World and people truly want to know what is going on.

Thousands of people are seeing these things and all at once, and making credible reports. Governments are starting to come clean, with the exception of the USA. You can try to spin that anyway you want to, but it is happening. You can't stop it no matter how hard you want it not to be true. Try to wish it away, that just isn't going to happen.

It is real. You better get used to the idea. Disclosure is happening now.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
Klimmer, what are your thoughts on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Mighty Hiker,

I really do not know anything about it except what Wiki says . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion (Russian: "Протоколы сионских мудрецов" or "Сионские протоколы") is one of many titles given to an antisemitic text purporting to describe a plan to achieve global domination by the Jewish people. Following its first public publication in 1903 in the Russian Empire, a series of articles printed in The Times in 1921 revealed that much of the material was directly plagiarized from earlier works of political satire unrelated to Jews. [1]


Sounds like an anti-semitic fraud.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 12, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
Klimmer, Klimmer

this is a bad trick. Now I can't come to my senses and delete my responses because you have copied them into your posts. I'm going to have to stop posting completely! You will no longer get the benefit of my wisdom and excellent grammar corrections even for short periods of time while the posts are up!

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 12, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
Quit poking fun Pate, a firm grip on reality is really not as common as you might suppose.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
The Vatican, a Country unto itself and the Seat of the Catholic Church . . .


http://www.physorg.com/news129920030.html

Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens
May 13, 2008 By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer (AP)
    Believing that the universe may contain alien life does not contradict a faith in God, the Vatican's chief astronomer said in an interview published Tuesday.


Full article . . .
http://www.wkrg.com/national/article/vatican_its_ok_to_believe_in_aliens/13868/May-13-2008_4-12-pm/

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,355400,00.html



From a Catholic Forum with very interesting links in the original post . . .

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=143361

came across a story regarding Monsignor Corrado Balducci. He is a Roman Catholic theologian of the Vatican Curia, a close friend of the pope, long time exorcist for the Archdiocese of Rome, and he is a Prelate of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples and the Society for the Propagation of the Faith.

Monsignor Corrado Balducci has said that extraterrestrial contact is real.

Valerio, Monti; Max Barucca. Monsignor Padre Balducci. UFO Disclosure. Retrieved on 2007-01-11.

New FATHER BALDUCCI assertions about Extraterrestrials. nonsoloufo. Retrieved on 2007-01-13.

TV Show [TV]. Italy: RAI 1, Programme "SPECIALE TG1"

Fastwalkers [DVD]. Fastwalkers.

Extraterrestrial Contact and Close Encounter (11 Minute Mark) [DVD]. Disclosure Project

Adriano, Forgione. UFOs and the Vatican. UFO India. Retrieved on 2007-01-11.

FATHER BALDUCCI assertions about Extraterrestrials. nonsoloufo. Retrieved on 2007-01-11.

Monsignor Corrado Balducci has provided analysis that relates directly with the teachings of the Catholic Church. He has stressed that the extraterrestrial encounters "are NOT demonic, they are NOT due to psychological impairment, they are NOT a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully." He also said that the Vatican is closely following reported incidents of extraterrestrial encounters from its Nunciatures (embassies) in different countries.

I'm not a UFO fanatic, but I'm curious what do you think? I just found it odd that someone from the Vatican would make such a disclosure.


I do not agree with the bolded statement. Just how do you square an Alien raping a human and not consider it Demonic?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
May 13, 2010 - 12:03am PT
Must say, she's a cutie!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 13, 2010 - 02:54am PT
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a vicious, racist, forgery. It is impossible to overstate how repugnant it is.

It was also one of the first modern conspiracy theories (the granddaddy, if you like), is still looked on approvingly by some of the virulent right-wing and xenophobes, and has no more basis in fact than most of the drivel that you post.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 03:01am PT
A good DVD on the evidence that is really available. Great source to start follow-up on all the evidence that they talk about . . .

Some of the bigger historical episodes of UFO sightings
Eyewitnesses
Images
Film footage
Radar Signatures
Official Reports filled-out and delivered
Military cover-ups
Credible Military Witnesses and pilots
Credible Civilian Pilot Witnesses
Credible Investigators




Fastwalkers: UFO & Alien Disclosure Pt 1/9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzMfSkuGC58

Fastwalkers: UFO & Alien Disclosure Pt 2/9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbfV9q--6lc&feature=related

Fastwalkers: UFO & Alien Disclosure Pt 3/9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlPkQckLF0o&feature=related

Fastwalkers: UFO & Alien Disclosure Pt 4/9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZAarXy3arM&feature=related


You can easily follow the other parts.




Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 13, 2010 - 03:05am PT
Klimmer, why is it that you need so badly to believe utter nonsense?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 03:39am PT
MH,

It is either happening or it isn't. Guess what? It's happening.

Large amounts of people either witnessed these bigger UFO events all at once or they didn't. Mass amount of people have seen these and all at once. The eye-witnesses all agree. And they reported to the authorities the same witness.

People are either making it all up or they aren't. Mass amount of people who witness something at the same time do not get together and conspire to lie.

Governments are disclosing what is happening or they are not. Guess what? They are disclosing. Get over it. Check out the official government websites.

All these individuals are either insane and out of their minds or they aren't. Guess what? These people are normal, sane, and are willing to risk the ridicule to state the truth.



It isn't a matter of faith. It is either happening and it's a real phenomenon, or it isn't. The fact of the matter it is real. The evidence is in abundance now.



Jesus in the Good Book states concerning the last days this day would come to pass . . .


“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.” Mat 24:24


These great signs and wonders will happen in the skies for all to see. The UFO phenomenon and sightings around the World are increasing in number, they are not decreasing. They are meant to deceive and make people turn further away from GOD.
Josh Nash

Social climber
riverbank ca
May 13, 2010 - 03:40am PT

she could abduct me anytime!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 03:56am PT
No, no, no . . .

You have to pick, then marry your space-mate carefully. No inter-breeding between humans and aliens allowed.

Ex: She however would make a great choice . . .
http://www.mcculloughsite.net/stingray/upload/2005/11/troi.jpg
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 09:42am PT
If someone really wants the physical evidence that UFOs/Aliens really exist, you have to do the homework. You have to read. One of the best websites doing much of the groundwork for you and organizing it in a very easy to search format is this site . . . no point in trying to re-invent the wheel. They have done a great job . . .

http://www.ufoevidence.org/



UFO Physical Evidence

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicalevidence.htm





Apollo 14 astronaut claims aliens HAVE made contact - but it has been covered up for 60 years

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1037471/Apollo-14-astronaut-claims-aliens-HAVE-contact--covered-60-years.html#ixzz0nogeKBCg




Either Astronaut Edgar Mitchell is an American Hero Astronaut, the 6th person to ever walk on the Moon and he knows what he is talking about and has access to those who also know, whom you and I do not have access to, or he is an insane individual in need of psychological help. Do we send crazy people to space? Did we send nutjobs to the Moon?

No we do not and no we did not. He is an American Hero speaking truth to shadowy power.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 13, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
Why did Keene say that his kid was in the balloon?

Why would I give a crap as to the motivations of crazy people to make up sh#t? I can't even understand why people watch sports instead of playing sports so I could never understand why all pictures of bigfoot and aliens are made with crappy cameras that can't focus.

Why do the aliens always fly far enough away to only look like lights in the sky instead of moving in a bit closer?

Why do people think there is a monster in Lock Ness even after a guy confesses to initiating the hoax? What about that girl with the fairy pictures (not gays BTW)? How about the guys that admitted they made the first crop circles and the others who wanted to copy it to increase tourism in the area?

Asking why people don't get more interested in investigating this stuff is just showing the same ignorance of human nature as the people who believe all of it. Sure, there might be some aliens or monsters out there but there is so much crap to wade through that is just human dysfunction that I'd rather avoid the whole thing. So what if that's an ark on the moon. Why do I care when I can't make my house payment and buy food for my kid?

Dave
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 13, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
Too much, too many, too long. Engineers, police officers, military high command leaders, every type and class of people have had incredible stories, and for the life of me, I don't believe so many credible people are making up the wildest fantasies and promoting them without any chance of remuneration or reward at all. These people are being held up as fools and idiots, like you have been doing from reflex to Klimmer, who has created not ONE single frame of all he has posted.

ALL of those people, in responsible jobs and positions have not fabricated the episodes they are reporting, they are merely feeling compelled to report them. I want to know what they are seeing and WHY.

Rok speaks the truth, as usual! I know someone of the highest moral fibre who doesn't drink anything stronger than Finnish coffee (granted, that is strong stuff) who saw one. In fact, most of the people in her town in Finland saw it, for 10 minutes while it parked over their town uploading herring recipes or whatever.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
Rokjox,

One thing is also, the Rosewell incident is a water-shed incident in the UFO World and is very, very well documented. We now know nearly exactly what has happened. High level Military officers who were involved in the official cover-up have come clean, often before they passed away and have given their accounts.

The "official" story of Rosewell has changed so many times over the years. The US Government can't even keep their lies straight anymore.

Also you do not threaten the people who lived there and witnessed the event and had pieces of the wreckage with their lives, (yes, lives were threatened to stay quite), and forcefully removing all wreckage that people had collected, or buy them off with money if it was just a weather balloon.

One of the best most accurate and fully up to date books on Rosewell to read is:

I read it . . .

Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the Government's Biggest Cover-up (Revised and Expanded Edition) (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Roswell-Unmasking-Governments-Cover-up/dp/1601630662/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273769002&sr=1-1


2 others I know a great deal about:

The Roswell Legacy: The Untold Story of the First Military Officer at the 1947 Crash Site (Paperback)
~ Jesse, Jr. Marcel (Author), Linda Marcel (Author), Stanton T. Friedman (Foreword)
http://www.amazon.com/Roswell-Legacy-Untold-Military-Officer/dp/1601630263/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273769002&sr=1-7

The Day After Roswell (Mass Market Paperback)
~ Colonel Philip Corso (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Day-After-Roswell-Philip-Corso/dp/067101756X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273769002&sr=1-8



We know the whole story now, and were the wreckage went, where the bodies went, we know the whole cover-up. We know all about Majestic 12. We know.


By the way, Bible Code says so also. I posted that up-stream.

We know.


Pate,

This is personal time! Got to be pre-emptive with these guys!

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 13, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
We know.
Your utter certainty, based on a flimsy foundation of trivial facts, unfounded assumptions, unproven hypothesis, and crackpot nonsense such as the bible code, speaks for itself. An absurd edifice built on quicksand.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
How are all you naysayer debunkers who just have a knee jerk reaction to everything no matter what, going to dig yourselves out of all the ignorance you spew and have spewed, when everyone will know that it is true?

Everyone will know soon enough that it is indeed real.

What are you going to say then?

Boy I hope Chris Mac does indeed archive everything on ST. I have nothing to be ashamed of. I've been honest and straight forward from the get-go.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 13, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
Everyone will know soon enough that it is indeed real.
When? Perhaps you and FatTrad should team up, in terms of predicting events. Though his weltanschauung has slightly firmer foundations.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
Last word until later.

It is already happening. You just haven't been paying attention.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 13, 2010 - 04:03pm PT
I have refrained from posting because there is nothing more to say, Klimmer believes in this stuff and while there is no good evidence of anything that he says, he isn't going to change his mind on it.

Human witness is a very fallible piece of evidence. People can be mislead by any number of perceptual limitations. Remember perception is not just what it is possible for you to sense, but what your nervous system does with those sensations. Humans are convinced that the world is a certain way, and that they sense it as it happens, when the actual case is quite different, as has been demonstrated many times in well designed experiments.

So even American Heros can be mislead (if in fact the quotations offered are representative of what they intended at the time). The words "Unidentified Flying Object" mean just what they say, though we have heard these events interpreted as "Alien Space Craft" so often as they have almost become synonymous. The vast majority of UFOs are explainable, some with more complex explanations than others, as physical phenomena, weather, misperception, etc.

There are a class that defy explanation, but usually because the evidence is not good enough to draw much of a conclusion. In fact, the evidence most likely to be brought forward as supporting the extraterrestrial intelligence origin of UFOs falls into the category of "not good enough to draw any conclusion on."

One piece of support for this point of view is the rather long time the ET/UFO interpreters say these sightings have been happening, essentially throughout recorded history. Yet there is never any definitive evidence in all these years to conclusively make the case. This is not just a USG conspiracy, but a world wide conspiracy that has been around for as long as we have records, throughout all of history.

Aside from extremely good limits on what is possible, in terms of space travel for any intelligence (be it biological or "artificial"), there is the daunting task of seeking out the places in the universe where life might have happened... that is, mostly it doesn't. You have to search the universe, find the planets and travel there in a finite period of time. It would be highly improbable that life elsewhere would find us here, even if they could overcome the problems of long distance travel, which is not likely.


However, if you would invoke the supernatural, well anything is possible... and it moots any rational discussion on the topic.


Klimmer can wait all he wants for the "Truth" it's not going to happen because it isn't true... but he has other explanations why it won't happen... and he is not alone.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 13, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
Think of this thread as a trip report from the very weird universe that Klimmer mentally lives in.








graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 13, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
Here is how bible code works. Just pick and choose letters out of words to make it say whatever you want it to.


Here is the "proof" that Bible Code predicts the 9/11 attacks:

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 13, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Klimmer,

Guess the real question to all of this. Are you as a Christian?

Let’s do a planning/briefing/debriefing session. We are just going to do an exercise.

OK! You are just driving along 395 at night and notice something strange. That light is something you have never seen before? You are hesitant but this could be your real proof that you have been searching for. So you check it out.

Jesus Christ, Holy Mother of God, it’s a space ship. You wait! You are jumping up and down with joy. [Most likely you peed in your pants] “Sh#t! Wish I brought the camera with me.”

Door opening up and ramp follows to make way for the first contact ever of this new person, animal, or vegetable. No, it is someone. Light coming from behind blocks your view. Can’t make it out yet.

You meet; you get him/her/it to turn around so you can see what he/she/it looks like. HMMM? Something strange, hadn’t planned this; they do not look like you. You stretch out your right hand in a gesture of friendship and notice this thing has a dick embedded in his/her/it right hand. You back off and offer your left hand and now notice there is a vagina in other hand of this creature. You try to hold your emotions to show that you are OK with this. Eye contact says it all: fear, hostility or non-threat, they’ll be watching.

My question to you since you prophesy as a christian, God made only one man and one woman. Man was made in God’s image.

Colour should not be a problem but most christians that I usually meet think and believe “it’s a white issue”

Do you plan to do any Gay bashing? Wait just went back to see your last post ”pre-emptive” guess you would have had shotgun aimed and fired by then. Well there goes the neighborhood. I suggest you run.

The movie: “Independence Day” funny thing about it was that the US was the only country that had the technology to save the Earth. Canada could not help out, Russia, India, China out of the loop as well. A black man saved the world.

Klimmer: Do you think Pat Robertson and his white fellow christian prophets can with all their vast amounts of stealing and rhetoric? Is Pat baby the devil himself? He once said M fifteen for the British MI5 [MI-5] Liaison with Security Service, did God give him wrong message?


rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
May 13, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
GraniteClimber,

You absolute disrespectful bastard....

That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen!!!!!!

Just brilliant!!!!!!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
Wow! Look at all the banter.

Busy at the moment, but I will get back and respond.


Just one thing. I'm thinking no matter how much evidence is presented many of you will not ever think the UFO/Alien phenomenon is real until an EBE comes up to you and shakes your hand, or probes you in a not so very nice place.

And even then you'll probably think you're dreaming -- this can't possibly be real. You'll think, "It is sooo contrary to and against all my pre-conceptions" (or should we call them mis-conceptions).

I'll get back to ya . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
I have refrained from posting because there is nothing more to say, Klimmer believes in this stuff and while there is no good evidence of anything that he says, he isn't going to change his mind on it.

Ed, I would like to clarify what I do think.

I do not believe in UFOs/Aliens, I believe in and trust in GOD and his Son Jesus Christ. Are UFOs/Aliens a real phenomenon? Yes they are. Why do I think this? Because the physical evidence says so.

You use the same arguement that Michael Sherman, publisher of Skeptic Magazine uses when argueing with physicist Stanton Freidman on the Larry King Live Show . . .

CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW2KRzm0tvk&NR=1

Michael says the evidence of UFOs/Aliens doesn't exist. He just outright claims that, yet he hasn't looked at the physical evidence that does exist. Michael just makes unfounded proclaimations. Then Stanton calls him on it. How can you say that when you haven't looked at all the evidence? Unless you are unbiased and take a good look, and check out all the data and the evidence you will never know. I once also didn't think it was true, but then I looked at the evidence good, long, and thoroughly. Until you do the same you can not make the proclaimation that the evidence doesn't exist.


Human witness is a very fallible piece of evidence. People can be mislead by any number of perceptual limitations. Remember perception is not just what it is possible for you to sense, but what your nervous system does with those sensations. Humans are convinced that the world is a certain way, and that they sense it as it happens, when the actual case is quite different, as has been demonstrated many times in well designed experiments.

Yea, human witness is so fallible it must always be in error (sarcasm). Sorry, but when thousands of eye-witnesses see and describe the same phenomenon witnessing the same event, then it rings true. We have witnessed so many crafts flying in our lifetime we are all very good observers when we see something and notice something very different and recognize it when it falls outside of our normal experience, such as the massive craft that flew over Phoenix. Science relies on human witness and our ability to observe. We are observers. If you think we are not very good observers, then you must reject a great deal of observational science with prejudice. It isn't our only means of evidence and data, but it is a good deal of what we do in science, depending on the phenomenon and study.

And we are not just talking about a great deal of human witness and observation when it comes to the UFO/Alien phenomenon. We have a great deal of other empirical data: large amounts of imagery and video exist, RADAR returns, ground measures of radiation phenomenon and well as other ground phenomenon, physical ground deformation, and yes even crafts (that do get confiscated and locked-up out of the reach of public observation). Sightings of UFOs are increasing in number as time goes by, and not just here in the USA, but all over the World. To discount this is again to discount the reality of this truth.

So even American Heros can be mislead (if in fact the quotations offered are representative of what they intended at the time). The words "Unidentified Flying Object" mean just what they say, though we have heard these events interpreted as "Alien Space Craft" so often as they have almost become synonymous.

Really? Space heros are mislead such as Gordon Cooper? He witnessed Foo-Fighters in WW2, many pilots did. Common knowledge. Then witnessed a spaceship land in front of him at a military base in CA and his crew filmed it. Then the government came in and confiscated the film and asked them not to ever talk about it again. Yea, he must of been mislead and dreamed up all these experiences. He must be a nutjob. Apparently we hire nutjobs, and keep them on the pay-roll even after they have these nutjob experiences.

Don't get me started regarding Astronaut Edgar Mitchell, the 6th man to walk on the Moon. He has directly spoken to those who have seen the UFOs/Alien bodies, and has been told that the US government is covering it up, by those who know that are on the inside, and that UFOs/Alien phenomenon is real. He has access to those who know. Are you going to sit back and call him crazy and insane? Again we have space heros who are nutjobs and whackos? I don't think so.

The vast majority of UFOs are explainable, some with more complex explanations than others, as physical phenomena, weather, misperception, etc.

Yes, some are. Many are not. Look at the official government records from around the world.

There are a class that defy explanation, but usually because the evidence is not good enough to draw much of a conclusion. In fact, the evidence most likely to be brought forward as supporting the extraterrestrial intelligence origin of UFOs falls into the category of "not good enough to draw any conclusion on."

There are those that defy explaination no doubt. But then there are those that have been explained and then confiscated and hidden and purposefully covered-up. To denie this again would be to denie the clear evidence and testimony of those who experienced this and where then threatened to remain quite.

One piece of support for this point of view is the rather long time the ET/UFO interpreters say these sightings have been happening, essentially throughout recorded history. Yet there is never any definitive evidence in all these years to conclusively make the case. This is not just a USG conspiracy, but a world wide conspiracy that has been around for as long as we have records, throughout all of history.

The UFO phenomenon has indeed been recorded through history. Many programs out there that bring this truth out into the open such as the History Channel: Ancient Aliens.

Aside from extremely good limits on what is possible, in terms of space travel for any intelligence (be it biological or "artificial"), there is the daunting task of seeking out the places in the universe where life might have happened... that is, mostly it doesn't. You have to search the universe, find the planets and travel there in a finite period of time. It would be highly improbable that life elsewhere would find us here, even if they could overcome the problems of long distance travel, which is not likely.

Sorry but they are already here, so our understanding of space/time travel needs to be re-worked and re-figured. If a phenomenon exists, and you say it is impossible and that it can't exist, considering our current understanding of the natural laws of physics, then guess what? Our limited understanding of space/time physics is wrong and needs to be revamped and re-worked. We do not know everything. Perhaps we only know the thickness of the polish on the bowlingball, of all knowledge that there is to know.


However, if you would invoke the supernatural, well anything is possible... and it moots any rational discussion on the topic.

I do not have to evoke the supernatural to know that the UFOs/Alien phenomenon is real. It can be explained entirely by science and the laws of nature, if we had that level of understanding of these laws.

However, I do invoke GOD, and what I know from his word, to place it in the context of my religious faith so that I may understand. I get it that you do not have faith in GOD. I understand that.

Klimmer can wait all he wants for the "Truth" it's not going to happen because it isn't true... but he has other explanations why it won't happen... and he is not alone.

Sorry Ed, it is already happening right now. Truth is happening. It is either real, or there are mass halucinations around the World.

You can only have it one way.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 14, 2010 - 01:09am PT
Science relies on human witness and our ability to observe. We are observers. If you think we are not very good observers, then you must reject a great deal of observational science with prejudice. It isn't our only means of evidence and data, but it is a good deal of what we do in science, depending on the phenomenon and study.

No, science does not rely on human witness, it relies on our ability to test our observations empirically, and to be able to explain our observations, and the effects of our instruments in terms of the very same physics. In addition, the observations are to be explained in terms of the state of our scientific knowledge, where they do not, and they are considered to be credible, we have to start looking for other explanations. But the tests that our observations must withstand in order for them to start to challenge theory are rigorous.

If a phenomenon exists, and you say it is impossible and that it can't exist, considering our current understanding of the natural laws of physics, then guess what? Our limited understanding of space/time physics is wrong and needs to be revamped and re-worked. We do not know everything. Perhaps we only know the thickness of the polish on the bowlingball, of all knowledge that there is to know.

I didn't say it was impossible, but we do not lightly rewrite what we understand based on essentially no evidence. And the "revamping" process is highly unlikely to result in the major changes to our understanding that would make space travel possible. However the fact that this argument is largely driven by belief and not by hard evidence is an indication that this is not science.

When you are pressed to provide evidence, you say that it exists but it is held secret by the government. A convenience for you, but not evidence in any sense of that word. Hearsay is not evidence.

Aliens are here? point one out, let them provide proof.

Is it strange that the only physical evidence is apparently in the possession of the US government, that no other physical evidence exists that is not sequestered away? Anything is possible then. This is not evidence.

Whether or not I have religious beliefs is quite irrelevant to my ability to conduct science. Science, I believe, is not based on belief or faith.

Either you have the evidence or you do not.

On balance, you do not have the evidence. You suspect that the evidence exists, people you trust have even told you that it exists. But you do not have it.

Without the evidence, you don't really have a case to make here. The "massive ark on the moon" could simply be a geological object which was photographed in such a way that it could look like something else... hard to tell without actually doing something more than scanning poor resolution photographs, or any photographs...

...but you don't have any additional reason to believe that those pixels represent the image of anything but moon rock, the simpler explanation of the two, the other being your OP title.

Just rocks.

much more likely.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 14, 2010 - 02:00am PT
It doesn't matter how unlikely it is to him, because its HIS truth. And when someone has a belief, they will often interpret the world in terms of that belief instead of objectively looking at the evidence. A very unscientific view. Which is ironic because Klimmer strikes me a guy who fancies himself a scientist. I find this troubling. Many people no longer see science as a method of objective and skeptical inquiry.


Klimmer, your belief in alien spaceship encounters is likely part of the same cognitive process that allows you to believe in the bible code. You start with a belief and then look for the evidence to support it, no matter how improbable. Its science in reverse. All the while ignoring the indications which tell you otherwise. And to cover the counter evidence, you create outlandish conspiracy theories.

No one, not Ed or anyone else, has said that eyewitnesses are hallucinating. They are simply interpreting an unexplainable event in the only terms they know how, or how they have been told to interpret it. Its a well researched phenomena in cognitive psychology.


Also, your links to so called "physical evidence' are bunk. NONE of them work.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicalevidence.htm

I think you post all these links in the hope that they will add credibility to your claim. 90 percent have nothing to do with the arguments you're trying to make, or what you claim they prove.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2010 - 04:13am PT
Why do I have to keep holding your hands? The links are there. Stop being lazy. Follow them to the official government disclosure websites such as . . .

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/projectcondign.htm



UK:

Ministry of Defense
Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) in the UK Air Defence Region
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/SearchPublicationScheme/UnidentifiedAerialPhenomenauapInTheUkAirDefenceRegion.htm







Do I have to hold your hand to every official government UFO disclosure website?


I sure hope not.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2010 - 09:37am PT




Maybe you guys didn't read that announcement from our #1 NATO allie, so I will post it again:





Like I said. Disclosure has happened. Now what are you going to do about it? How will your World-view change? This changes everything.

And will there be any apologies forth-coming?
















Crickets . . .
howlostami

Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
May 14, 2010 - 10:04am PT
Dude, read sheet 6 of that report. Not to be rude, but paragraphs 9 & 10 pretty much completely refute your insinutations.

The report basically said, yes, people see thigns in the sky, and no, those things aren't things we care about.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 14, 2010 - 11:48am PT
some other excerpted passages from this report:




12. Considerable evidence exists to support the thesis that the events are almost certainly attributable to physical, electrical and magnetic phenomena in the atmosphere, mesosphere and ionosphere. They appear to originate due to more than one set of weather and electrically-charged conditions and are observed so infrequently as to make them unique to the majority of observers. There seems to be a strong possibility that at least some of the events may be triggered by meteor re-entry, the meteors neither burning up completely nor impacting as meteorites, but forming buoyant plasmas. The conditions and method of formation of the electrically-charged plasmas and the scientific rationale for sustaining them for significant periods is incomplete or not fully understood.




KEY FINDINGS OF DEFENCE INTEREST

17. The overall analysis, which has included an examination of reports received during the Cold War, indicates that:

 There is no evidence that any UAP, seen in the UKDAR, are incursions by air-objects of any intelligent (extra-terrestrial or foreign) origin, or that they represent any hostile intent.





If the documents are what they claim to be, then it seems that a lot of serious thought has gone into trying to understand what this phenomena is... and ETs don't seem to make the list of possible explanations

are there other documents you'd like us to read for you Klimmer?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
Now Ed, Pate, et al,
We aren't going to be so naive as to believe any old thing we read in a gov handout, especially if it is a denial, are we? Jess sayin'...

I mean the Air Force flat out lied to the Congressional Budget Committee that the 'Aurora Project' existed even when presented
with its $20 Billion line item in the 1992 (?) Pentagon budget proposal.
dirtbag

climber
May 14, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
A music interlude to calm the storm . . .

The Carpenters - Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BrSVOOK610

That's actually pretty hard to watch. Poor Karen Carpenter looks skeletal, and knowing how she died in a few years...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
I was in Alaska when this happened:

JAL Flight 1628 Over Alaska

In November, 1986, a Japanese crew of a jumbo freighter aircraft witnessed three unidentified objects while flying over Alaska, USA. This sighting gained international attention when the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced that it was going to officially investigate this sighting because the Air Route Traffic Control Center in Anchorage, Alaska, had reported that the UFO had been detected on radar. Captain Terauchi was featured on numerous radio and TV programs and in People Magazine. Within a few months of these events he was grounded, apparently for his indiscretion of reporting a UFO, even though he was a senior captain with an excellent flying record. Several years later he was reinstated. The UFOs in this case were tracked on both ground and airborne radar, witnessed by experienced airline pilots, and confirmed by a FAA Division Chief.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/jalalaska.htm


"Either there's something there or there isn't it," says former FAA division chief John Callahan. "Is it a spaceship or not? Why would they say it's a spaceship if it's not? The radar ain't lying."
Radar reports were part of what Callahan investigated while working for the Federal Aviation Administration in 1986. The investigation stemmed from a report by a Japan Airlines 747, as it flew about 50 miles from Anchorage. An inexplicable image appeared on air traffic control and military computers, and the three pilots flying the plane claimed they saw a UFO.
"The pilot has it on his radar, and then the pilot and the other two guys in the cockpit look out the window, and they see him over here, and they see him over there, and they see him over here, and for 31 minutes," Callahan says.
The FAA said the incident was due to a radar malfunction. The CIA believed the pilots, Callahan says, but it buried the story. "The CIA said it was a UFO. The CIA said we're not going to tell the public, because it would scare the public. They told me that."

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1322.htm

You don't get into the left seat of a 747 if you are prone to seeing 'things' for 31 minutes.
You don't get to be a FAA division chief if you can't read a radar screen.
Jess sayin'....
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 14, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
therefore........what those people saw where space aliens. Good logic.

The Story of Clever Hans: An example of why skepticism is so important .


Clever Hans was an arab stallion from Russia. In 1900 he was purchased by Wilhelm von Osten, a retired schoolmaster. Von Osten was convinced that animals possessed an intelligence equal to that of man and spent much of his time trying to prove his point. He had started by trying to teach a cat, a horse and a rather troublesome bear how to do simple arithmetic. Neither the cat nor the bear showed the slightest inclination to fill their heads with math, but the horse, Hans, was of a different calibre altogether.

Von Osten taught the horse to recognize the numbers one to nine, first with the help of skittles. Hans would tap out the correct answer with his hoof. Von Osten then replaced the skittles with numbers on a chalkboard. A sum was drawn up on the chalkboard and Clever Hans tapped out the answer. In a short time Clever Hans could work out reasonably complex calculations including some square root. Scientific observers were astounded and they could see no signs of trickery. After some tests by eminent mathematicians, the horse was considered to have the math ability of a 14 year old schoolboy.

Clever hans and his owner enjoyed world wide acclaim, but the scientific community remained skeptical and a group of leading professors was asked to subject the horse to five weeks of intense scrutiny, on every test Hans got his sum right. Then one of the scientists, a psychologist from Berlin named Pfungst, had an inspiration. Could Clever hans get the right answer if the horse alone could see the numbers?

While one of the team wrote down the numbers and left the room, everyone else including the psychologist moved behind the blackboard. Of all of those left in the room, only the horse knew what was inscribed on the blackboard. Clever Hans failed every subsequent test. What the horse had been doing, proposed Pfungst, was to take ques either from his trainer or from other people in the room. Hans was able to spot very subtle movements such as a minute nod of the head and to detect the tension experienced by everyone in the room as he approached the correct answer.

Scientists since have discovered that horses (and dogs) can detect the heartbeat of someone standing nearby. As Clever Hans drew close to correct answer an increase in everyone's heartbeat indicated the place for him to stop tapping his hoof.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 14, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
I'm wondering about reading comprehension...

...right now the science, such as it is, pursues the hypothesis that these objects are atmospheric phenomena related to buoyant electromagnetic plasmas. These would be seen on radar, and they would be visible... how they persist for such a long time is a matter of enquiry.

They are unidentified... they may appear to be "flying" and their light emissions certainly make them look like "objects" though their low mass make this phenomena appear "inertia-less."

The statement regarding "scaring the public" is apt, because, apparently, the public lacks the ability to look at the claims of ET/UFOs critically.

It is strange and disheartening, and as good a demonstration as any of the poor job we do educating people in the sciences. (As apparently reflected in the teachers of that topic, too).
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 14, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
"buoyant electromagnetic plasmas" maintaining formation for 31 minutes at Mach .82?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 14, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
"extraterrestrial life forms utilizing superluminal space travel in a universe containing 1 septillion stars" ?

I'll go with the plasmas
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 14, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
I will go for Pat Robertson.


"Robertson Advocates Stoning for UFO Enthusiasts"

by Skipp Porteous
Freedom Writer Magazine

In a recent pronouncement, television evangelist and Christian Coalition president Pat Robertson advocated death by stoning for UFO enthusiasts.

Freedom Writer magazine disclosed Robertson's statement in its July/August issue. Freedom Writer is published by the Institute for First Amendment Studies, a group that monitors the right.

Robertson used the news of the July 4th Mars landing to promote his extreme beliefs. A segment on the July 8, 1997 broadcast of The 700 Club featured news of the Mars Pathfinder mission. Employing the historical event as a starting point, the program delved into the possibility of the existence of UFOs and space aliens.

While Robertson viewed the space program with suspicion, on a more serious note, he launched into a diatribe against those who entertain the existence of space aliens and UFOs. In a rambling discourse, he said that if such things exist, they are simply demons trying to lead people away from Christ. According to Robertson, the threat is so serious that people who believe in space aliens should be put to death by stoning -- according to "God's word."

"The Bible says the Earth belongs to man, but the heavens belong to the Lord," Robertson said. "He has given us the Earth. He also warned, way back when Moses was writing down not only what is the Ten Commandments, but Deuteronomy, which is almost the Second Law.

"Here is what he said to the children of Israel about this whole matter:

"'If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, who has gone and served other gods and worshipped them, either the sun or moon or any of the hosts of heaven which I have not commanded you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and stone to death that man or woman with stones.' (Deuteronomy 17:2-5, NKJV)

"Now, that's what Moses said to the children of Israel about those who worship the sun and the moon and the hosts of heaven, because these things, at best, are lifeless nothings, or, if they are intelligent, they're demonic. And, yes, there is a host of heaven. There are angels and there are fallen angels. There is no question about it.

"Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed, funny-looking creature? Of course he can, or it can. Of course they can deceive people. And if they can lead somebody away from the true God, or away from Jesus Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't matter, you will lose your salvation. It doesn't matter how they get you. The question is, did they get you, and under what guise?

"This is man in rebellion against God, who refuses to take God's Law. And God says, 'My covenant says you won't do this. And if I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in Israel that's doing this sort of thing, then I want you to take him out and dispose of him.

"It's a clear violation of God's word."

This post is frying my brain
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 14, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
Alien Abduction Survey

This survey identifies typical experiences shared by many abductees. While it is not intended to cover all similarities, it lets you compare your experiences with those of known abductees. Your anonymous responses will be entered into the database and summarized on a future home page. This is an informal survey and not meant to replace a thorough evaluation. It should not be taken by individuals suffering from diagnosed psychiatric disorders

Answer each question with a "yes" or a "no"

1 Do you take more vitamins than most people?
Yes No
2 Do you have sinus trouble or migraine headaches?
Yes No
3 Do you feel you are psychic?
Yes No
4 Do you secretly feel you are special or chosen?
Yes No
5 Do you secretly fear being accosted or kidnapped if you do not constantly monitor your surroundings?
Yes No
6 Do you have trouble sleeping through the night for unexplainable reasons?
Yes No
7 Have you seriously considered or did you install a security system for your home even if there was no justification?
Yes No
8 Do you have dreams of flying or being outside your body?
Yes No
9 Do you dream about seeing UFOs, being inside UFOs, or interacting with UFO occupants?
Yes No
10 As a child or teenager, was there a special place you secretly believed held a spiritual meaning just for you?
Yes No
11 As a child or adult, did you ever hear a voice inside your head talking to you which wasn't your own?
Yes No
12 Did you ever experience a period of time while awake where you could not remember what you had done during that period of time? This missing time may have been a half hour, several hours, a whole day or more. Do not answer "yes" for memory lapses due to highway driving, drinking binges, chronic pain, medical conditions, exhaustion, effects of medication, mind-altering substances, or being lost in reading a good book.
Yes No
13 As a child or adult, have you seen faces or beings near you when in bed which were not explainable?
Yes No
14 Have you ever seen a UFO?
Yes No
15 Have you ever seen a UFO up close within short walking or driving distance?
Yes No
16 If you have seen a UFO up close, were you strongly compelled to walk, drive or stand near it?
Yes No or Not Applicable
17 Do you have a waking memory of being inside a UFO or interacting with its occupants?
Yes No
18 Do you feel fear or anxiety over the subject of aliens or UFOs?
Yes No
19 Have you had multiple sightings of UFOs?
Yes No
20 Are you more sensitive to issues affecting the earth, its environment and all life forms than other people?
Yes No
21 Do you have dreams where superior beings, angels, or aliens are educating you about mankind, the universe, global changes or future events?
Yes No
22 Does your home have unexplainable sounds, apparitions, or unusual events which are attributed to ghosts?
Yes No
23 As a child or adult, have you had nosebleeds or found blood stains on your pillow for unexplainable reasons?
Yes No
24 Have x-rays or other procedures revealed unexplainable foreign objects lodged in your body?
Yes No
25 Have you awakened to discover unexplainable marks or bruises on your body?
Yes No
26 Your age:
19 or Under
20 - 29
30 - 39
40 - 49
50 - 59
60 - 69
70 - 79
80 and over
27 Your gender:
Male Female
28 Your ethnicity:
White
Black
Hispanic
Asian/Pacific Islander
Native American
29 Do you want to receive a copy of Newsletter #1 which answers questions about the alien abduction survey in greater detail?
Yes No
30 Count how many "yes" answers you have for questions 1 - 25.

Put total "yes" answers in this box:
Then click the button to get your score.


Source: Abduct.com Note: also tells you how to win the lottery

Question # 12 comes to mind for me.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
May 14, 2010 - 07:26pm PT
This is an informal survey and not meant to replace a thorough evaluation. It should not be taken by individuals suffering from diagnosed psychiatric disorders.

That might eliminate some of the posters on this thread.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
Well, we are making some ground.

We have gotten some here on this thread to go from complete denial that anything is really happening, and claiming that people who think so are bat-poop crazy and on hallucinogenics, to finally admitting and claiming that the phenomenon that are witnessed and observed (all around the World) that are seen flying in formations, landing, and taking off, zipping around and manuevering faster and at impossible changes in directions and speeds (incredible examples of acceleration), and then dissappearing, all of which are all beyond our modern aeronautical capabilities, are all really only unusual natural occurences of the fourth state of matter -- plasma.

Well, we're getting there. At glacial speeds.

It is hard to move mountains of denial. More later.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 14, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
Well, we are making some ground.
Who's the "we"?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 14, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
Mimi

climber
May 15, 2010 - 12:23am PT
This is such a vile thread as pointed out by that Kiwi. Correctly so I might add.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 12:27am PT
More from the UK . . .

There is a tonne of stuff to look through.

Newly released UFO files from the UK government
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/

Previous file releases: The National Archives holds other UFO files that have already been released by the Ministry of Defence. You can download these in PDF format for a small fee. The files contain details of numerous UFO sightings.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/existing-files.htm


Dr David Clarke, an expert in UFO history, guides us through the highlights of the newly released UFO files.

Watch the short video. Interesting. Most of the UFOs can be explained, but some cannot, and some indeed left physical evidence.



“What does all this stuff about flying saucers amount to? What can it mean? What is the truth?”

Sir Winston Churchill - July 1952 (Catalogue reference PREM 11/855)



An excerpt from the UFO Files: The Inside Story of Real-life Sightings, a book by Dr. David Clarke published by the UK National Archives . . . looks like a very interesting read, check it out . . .

http://filestore.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pdfs/the-ufo-files-extract.pdf



You have to admit the UK Government is much more open about the UFO/Alien phenomenon than the US Government is. That is the absolute truth. I would like to see the same honesty here in the US by our Government. But like I said before, they have been lying for so long, I don't think they know how to tell the truth anymore. Pathological lying is kinda that way. It is a real institutionalized illness suffered by our Government.


Edit:

I didn't realize I got post 777. Perfect. Thanks for pointing that out.

GOD must have smiled. :-))
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 15, 2010 - 12:31am PT
Klimmer just posted #777. Clearly a portentous event.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 15, 2010 - 12:40am PT
Klimmer, your line is:

"ok, let's call it a draw"

Rokjox... choosing to be a contrarian doesn't make you right... it does make you crusty...
there is no evidence that this phenomena is anything but natural, though not completely explained. The working hypothesis has the value that it is within the realm of what we understand about nature.

ET/UFO exceeds by a great deal what we understand to be the correct description of nature... I agree we don't know it all... but I we know enough.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 15, 2010 - 12:40am PT
And yet, you deniers have no more evidence to shore up your opinions of my crankedness than Klimmer does to support odd flying craft. Actually quite a bit less.

The burden of proof is on those who make the claims, not anyone else. Again, this this shows your lack of formal science education.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 15, 2010 - 12:46am PT
RJ: Hate to tell you, but most of the calls made by passengers on the four planes on September 11th, 2001, were made from seat-telephones. Which are designed to make air to ground calls. No need to fuss about whether or not cell phones would have worked from the plane's locations, elevations, and speeds.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 15, 2010 - 01:30am PT
And as Ed mentioned upthread, Klimmer's only had a flesh wound. Just like this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno

Punch line: "You're a loony". Which, as the thread is ostensibly about the Moon, seems apropos.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 03:23am PT
MH,

I have to admit I laughed pretty hard watching that scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail. Been years since I've seen it. Too funny.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 03:54am PT
Weld_it,

Thanks for all those UFO/Alien/Space past ST thread bumps. I should, or someone should try to link all past threads to this thread just for archival reasons. Good stuff.

Hey, and even Largo and WoodySt got into it!


Great images by Ouch! Sure miss his humor here on ST. I should grab some of his Alien artwork and post it here too.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 11:05am PT
I will let Ed come and correct my thinking, but the superluminal speeds within the inflationary period of time within the Big Bang refers to the inflation of Space. Since no information was transmitted between this Space, Special Relativity and General Relativity were not violated.

Even now we have objects within our Universe (distant galaxies) that seperate at speeds greater than light, but again this is the expansion of Space at Speeds greater than light, again no information transmitted.

OK, my head hurts now.

Here . . .

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&q=inflation+period+within+the+big+bang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology);

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&q=was+inflation+within+the+big+bang+faster+than+light
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=383475
http://www.uni.edu/morgans/ajjar/Cosmology/cosmos.html


Back on Topic
What this thread is all about: possible ideas!

I brought up the possible Spacecraft on the Moon, because if it is an intelligently designed spacecraft (and not a massive rock - very unlikely), then it isn't ours and it isn't any other Nation's from here on Earth, then it is ET/Alien, or from a distant very intelligent people here on Earth that are now hidden within our past.

Do I know? No. Do I suspect? Yes. Do I throw out outlandish hypotheses? Yes, but they are not unique. I did not first come up with these ideas. Someone else did. I'm just speculating myself.


Why bring in the modern UFO/Alien/ET question? Because it is relevant. If they are here now, and countries around the World are now brave enough to disclose this truth slowly, (except for lying our butts off good ol USA), then that adds to the possibility (increases the odds) that some Alien craft is hidding on the backside of the Moon. And vise-versa. If there is an alien craft on the backside of the Moon, and it looks to be as though it has been there for millions of years due to the impact crater scarring, then they have been here through out of our history, perhaps influencing mankind in countless ways and they are still here.

It is all connected. It is all relevant. That is why it can all be discussed and should be.

All you have to do is just prove one case openly and publically without a shadow of a doubt and game over. I think we are very close to doing that regardless of governments keeping their mouths shut, and hidding the evidence to the best of their ability. Disclosure is happening. It has happened. Now all we need is the physical empirical proof within our hands, and even skeptics like ED et al., will come to know.


Another topic mentioned:

Do you need to have a PhD to do science? No. Does it help? Of course. It gives you excellent training and credibility. However, someone well read who knows the scientific method and tackles a problem, makes an observation about the natural world around them, and that they want to know more about, comes up with a hypothesis and puts it to the test in attempt to invalidate it through the scientific method can also contribute to our scientific knowledge base.

It takes dicoverers to make discoveries, and doing science and making scientific discoveries is not a crime. Anyone can contribute if they follow the scientific method, the correct procedures, properly and carefully.You do not need a PhD to do so.


Case in point, a story most of us climbers are all very familiar with:

John Muir (no PhD) discovered that the Sierra Nevada Mountains were shaped mostly by glaciers along with Yosemite Valley, and not catastrophic faulting proposed by PhD Joshua Whitney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir

Pursuit of his love of science, especially geology, often occupied his free time. Muir soon became convinced that glaciers had sculpted many of the features of the valley and surrounding area. This notion was in stark contradiction to the accepted contemporary theory, promulgated by Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey), which attributed the formation of the valley to a catastrophic earthquake. As Muir's ideas spread, Whitney would try to discredit Muir by branding him as an amateur. But Louis Agassiz, the premier geologist of the day, saw merit in Muir's ideas, and lauded him as "the first man I have ever found who has any adequate conception of glacial action."[19]

In 1871, Muir discovered an active alpine glacier below Merced Peak, which helped his theories gain acceptance. He was a highly productive writer and had many of his accounts and papers published as far away as New York. Muir's former professor at the University of Wisconsin, Ezra Carr, and his wife Jeanne, encouraged Muir to put his ideas into print. They also introduced Muir to notables such as Emerson, as well as leading scientists such as Louis Agassiz, John Tyndall, John Torrey, Clinton Hart Merriam, and Joseph LeConte.[citation needed]

A large earthquake centered near Lone Pine, California in Owens Valley (see 1872 Lone Pine earthquake) strongly shook occupants of Yosemite Valley in March 1872. The quake woke Muir in the early morning and he ran out of his cabin "both glad and frightened," exclaiming, "A noble earthquake!" Other valley settlers, who believed Whitney's ideas, feared that the quake was a prelude to a cataclysmic deepening of the valley. Muir had no such fear and promptly made a moonlit survey of new talus piles created by earthquake-triggered rockslides. This event led more people to believe in Muir's ideas about the formation of the valley.[citation needed]


Another topic: Global Warming (but it really shouldn't be discussed on this thread), there is however another thread that it should be discussed on . . .



Now back on topic -- Alien Spacecraft on the Moon?, UFOs, Aliens, ET etc. Stop the personal attacks.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 11:27am PT
Jolly Roger,


Exactly!

And thanks for that story.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 11:44am PT
Overtime I'm going to link other threads here discussed on ST regarding UFOs, Aliens, ETs, EBEs, etc., just for archival purposes:

Aliens--what if we Do find them?
Started by Largo, October 5, 2005
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/105116/Aliens-what-if-we-Do-find-them


France opens secret UFO files.
Started by WoodySt, March 22, 2007
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/345804/France-opens-secret-UFO-files


High Interest Topic and Plenty of Opportunity for Slander!
Started by Klimmer, June 10, 2007
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/395978/High-Interest-Topic-and-Plenty-of-Opportunity-for-Slander


TMOAA/ET/EBE Threads (OT for sure but highly significant)
Started by Klimmer, Novemeber 19, 2009
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1012067/TMOAA-ET-EBE-Threads-OT-for-sure-but-highly-significant

MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 15, 2010 - 11:47am PT
RokJox you are the largest wind bag perhaps to ever haunt a forum. I feel sorry for your family and if any of them need some help, or perhaps you could do everyone a favor and self admit, here is a place and number for them to call:
Intermountain Hospital
303 North Allumbaugh
Boise, ID 83704
800-321-5984
http://www.intermountainhospital.com

God speed---
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 15, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
rokjox-
oh yeah- are you still getting off the bike on Shanes loop? ha ha ha. Weak sauce.

Get help man, do it for your family.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
Come on guys. Get along. Man, does every thread have to turn into personal attacks?

Perhaps someone should just start a full on slander thread and everyone can go there and yell, slander, insult, ad hominen attack eack other so that threads don't get full of personal doo-doo.


CAN WE JUST GET ALONG.






Please? Pretty please???
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
This is official from the Defense Ministry of Mexico:

UFOs - FOX News - Mexican Air Force - CNN News - OVNIs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y&feature=player_embedded#!

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Has anyone else on ST driven the Extra-terrestrial Hwy. in Nevada, Hwy. 375?

Has anyone been to Rachel, NV?

How about driving up to the gate at Area 51?

How about Roswell, NM?


I've done all those things with my wife and family. Pretty cool to do even if you think it is all bunk. Just to ckeck-out the legend and the stories. Very cool to do on vacation.



The best film I have seen on Area 51 from the History Channel:

UFO Hunters - Area 51 Revealed 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGOopaxooWs


By the way, Bob Lazar is still around, he has his own science education and supply company. He has some neat products (there are couple products and books I have my eye on purchasing) and even some from the US Government purchase product from him. Very interesting.

United Nuclear:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/

He doesn't hide what he did in Area 51:
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=page_4

George Knapp, Investigative Reporter
Bob Lazar: The Man Behind Area 51
http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=3369879



Good article on Bob Lazar and United Nuclear from Wired Magazine:

Don't Try This at Home, Garage chemistry used to be a rite of passage for geeky kids. But in their search for terrorist cells and meth labs, authorities are making a federal case out of DIY science.
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.06/chemistry.html







Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 15, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
let me set the record straight on my thinking on the observations of "UFOs"

I do not think that people who report these phenomena are crazy, bat-shit or otherwise.

My thinking, however, on the reason for these phenomena is to first try to understand them in terms of a natural explanation, that encompasses the observations, and to seek additional observations that help to better quantify the phenomena, as an ends to understanding it.

While I do not believe that this is being overly closed minded, I can see that some enthusiasts of a particular idea, that there are alien visitations, might feel this is too conservative and likely to be a nonproductive line of thinking... let's just jump over all that detail stuff and get to the only conclusion we know it has to be! Being a scientist requires learning a craft, and there are professional craftspeople who make a career out of practicing that craft, and others who dabble in the craft. The quality of the product produced can usually, but not always, be credited to the knowledge and skill of the craftsperson. Your mother was right, to get better you have to "practice, practice, practice." Professionals spend a lot of time practicing.

Another thing, which is perhaps a professional habit born from many experiences, is not to jump to the "least likely" conclusion before having worked through all of the "more likely" possibilities. In this case, UFOs, from my own thinking the possibility that it is some interesting natural phenomena occurring in the atmosphere is orders of magnitude more likely than the possibility that it represents the visitation by some intelligence. That is my opinion. I can back it up by doing a set of calculations that inform my opinion, but it is certainly true that were physical evidence provided that showed these were alien craft, my opinion would be proved incorrect. I've got no problem with that.

I'm sure that some may be intimidated by people with scientific credentials, and given the currently popular anti-elitist attitude of the American public, being perceived as part of an elite class (scientist in my case) I could be singled out as one of "them" vs. one of "us" especially where ad hominem argument technique is so important, as in an internet forum, e.g. SuperTopo.

To my defense I can only say that of all the posters to this thread, I believe I'm among the few that uses their real identity, and as such, you can find everything there is about me that appears on the web. You can read my abbreviated biography, you can review my published papers and remarks, you can know a lot more about me than I can know about any of you without talking to you, and in terms of this thread, you would have to identify your associated avatar. Many of you I know, many I do not.

I chose to use my name for a number of reasons, mostly, though, that I would post only what I would feel comfortable being associated with my name. Consequently, I do think carefully before pushing the "Post this Reply" button... probably skipping that step 20% to 30% of the time on "OT" threads.

Because I believe that scientists should be more engaged in public discussion I'm willing to wade into these sorts of topics and give my opinion and reveal my way of thinking, and perhaps interpret what my view of the scientific consensus is and how that works.

I'll continue to do that, and under my real name.


EDIT: in my hubris I neglected to credit Mike Bolte as posting under his name too, perhaps I just thought he exhibited better judgment then me! He's actually an astronomer...
Others on this thread who are identified by their avatar:

James Doty
Douglas Rhiner
WBraun
Jim Brennan
Tom Cochrane
donini
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 15, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
rokjox
So whats it to you if a guy in his mid-fifties over cranks his ascent, and stops for a breather? It's not like I am asking YOU to ride with me.

I've ridden with you/around you before and you got smoked. Even your "friends" laugh at you on the trails and they have that cute nik for you, probably only used behind your back since you are so volatile. ha ha ha. So funny!

Hitting up the spoke and then the gulch later if you want to suck some wind and eat some dust.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
Mike Bolte,

You should not keep vanishing your contributions to threads. C'mon, if Carl Sagan and Steven Hawkings can talk about UFOs/Aliens, you as an Astronomer can too.

C'mon stop vanishing your posts.



I think it is ok to post to forums using a made-up nick-name as long as you treat others the way you would like to be treated, The Golden Rule. Sometimes people want to contribute and stay anonymous. Me, I post as Klimmer, but have many times posted my real name. Depends on the context of the thread.

If someone wants to know who I am just read this post. Some (I won't mention any names) crossed the line big-time. But that is a whole other story. It is OK, to make people work just a little to figure out who you are, helps on keeping down unnecessary and unwanted emails or worse.

You really can't hide from Uncle Sam. He knows who each of us are. That is why I keep talking and saying things as though they are listening. Because they are. Yes, even here on ST.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
From another thread, more about Area 51 and what the US shadow guv is willing to do to keep the UFO/Alien phenomenon secret . . .


Testimony of CIA assassin recruited from Navy SEALs goes online with documents
July 16, 9:19 AMHonolulu Exopolitics ExaminerMichael Salla, Ph.D.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m7d16-Testimony-of-CIA-assassin-recruited-from-Navy-SEALs-goes-online-with-documents

S4 Informers Volume One
The long-awaited release of the 1991 "Connor O'Ryan" testimony. Featuring Wendelle C. Stevens, Robert O. Dean, Gem Cox and many others. We let you know it all...
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=CD7424712D84DEE3

UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (01 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=holCY20CtNA&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (02 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77GbetmJF1E&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (03 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9WKDYWLp4&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (04 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNCPDj5U4b4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNCPDj5U4b4&feature=player_embedded#t=196
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (05 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAa60qcuIfU&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (06 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcL0rjX7VVA&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (07 of 12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gsGVLzcneM&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (08 of 12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze3MSCFMiMA&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (09 of 12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0vD6AldwIA&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (10 of 12)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw89u5UCTC4&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (11 of 12) august edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec0NNblmFSY&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume One (12 of 12) august edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9Ld5NalUPk&feature=related


S4 Informers Volume Two
S4 Informers Volume Two. Takes up where the first volume leaves off. Things just get more and more interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=03AB12ACB6CB22B9&search_query=s4+informers+volume+two

UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (01 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7tiIB8eC1s&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (02 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2KABICBgE&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (03 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbnTt3LbsAc&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (04 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JRFSNNlLFI&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (05 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO4mfrui1Ik&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (06 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSEHaobNDOQ&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (07 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJiD_iU0410&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (08 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN1G5aTavX8&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (09 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCUjK0kEEWQ&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (10 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mnoqV-DuaE&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (11 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEdTSqriwrI&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Two (12 of 12) final cut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biP7z-xYs18&feature=related

S4 Informers Volume Three
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=55324C71E40F58A5&search_query=s4+informers+volume+three

UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (01 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ0-GQEUSKM&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (02 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-3xC850SPI&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (03 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=496JyiYCLco&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (04 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1y5vT9ptYE&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (05 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTJuVP4opC8&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (06 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czjscDXjkU4&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (07 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iDGjuvw00M&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (08 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ8z2OlGPtE&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (09 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc9H7X6hiu4&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (10 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpJ9wPXIfzU&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (11 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0n1GLvfMrY&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (12 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnJQXswHLp8&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (13 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9Lu-MS3co&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (14 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtltZGqTlaU&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (15 of 17 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGeQt4zbvw&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (16 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SgGys30XZg&feature=related
UFO Hypotheses - S4 Informers Volume Three (17 of 17)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2mgjLet0Tw&feature=related

Testimony of CIA assassin recruited from Navy SEALs goes online with documents
July 16, 9:19 AMHonolulu Exopolitics ExaminerMichael Salla, Ph.D.
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m7d16-Testimony-of-CIA-assassin-recruited-from-Navy-SEALs-goes-online-with-documents

Slide show of Evidence regarding CIA assassin/S4 Area 51 sentry:
http://www.examiner.com/ExaminerSlideshow.html?entryID=402157

UFO Hypotheses Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/ufohypotheses
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
    Albert Einstein


Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
    Albert Einstein


If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
    Albert Einstein



Never stop questioning . . .










http://www.aphids.com/cgi-bin/quotes.pl?act=ShowListingsForCat&Category=E
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
May 15, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
take me to your dealer.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 08:50pm PT
Once again, some say there are no physical evidences of UFOs/Aliens or ETs, yet the crop-circle phenomenon is getting more and more prevelant around the World and more and more complex.

Sure some are hoaxed, no doubt. Even admitted to. Yet some are very, very complex and bizarrely beautiful and have all kinds of weird remains and strange physical evidences on the ground that indicates it isn't hoaxing humans doing it. We can't even approach the complexity of even hoaxing them given many, many hours to do so, let alone leave all the physical trace evidence and do it within a matter of a few minutes or hours. And then also don't forget to add and include the witnessed bizarre lights hovering above the field and scene, just prior to discovering the crop circle design.

So can humans hoax these kind of crop circles that have these features and characteristics?:

Witnessed lights and UFOs above the fields

Wonderfully complex mathematical designed crop circles left after sighting

Messages within the designed crop circle

Do it all within minutes to a few hours

Leave radioactive physical traces, strange burn marks on the plant stocks, and many other bizarre physical evidence left at the scene

Government entities arriving within a short amount of time of the creation of the crop circle design



Can hoaxers pull all that off? I don't think so.



4 good resources I'm aware of:

Government Circles [Paperback]
Colin Andrews (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Government-Circles-Colin-Andrews/dp/1442138556/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1B0LVK64WNFV2&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Crop Circles - Quest for Truth (2002)
Colin Andrews (Actor), William Gazecki (Director)
http://www.amazon.com/Crop-Circles-Quest-Colin-Andrews/dp/B0000YTPG6/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1QX1M8E7D56OP&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Colin Andrews Blog:
http://colinandrews.blogspot.com/2009/10/policeman-watched-three.html

Colin Andrew's Website:
http://colinandrews.net/index.html
http://colinandrews.net/UFO-PoliceSergeant-SilburyHill.html



We're gonna need some images . . .

Man-made????
The Alien at Crabwood Farm House
http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-crab.html







See also:

Dutch Centre for Crop Circle Studies
http://www.dcccs.org/


This is a really good website that goes into the most common questions concerning crop-circles:

http://www.circularsite.com/feiten-eng.htm
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
Rokjox,

It has been decoded see this website:

The Alien at Crabwood Farm House
http://mmmgroup.altervista.org/e-crab.html


I still do not think this can be man-made, althought the author of the article thinks it might be.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
CROP CIRCLES

FACTS & THEORIES
------------------------------------------------------------------------


On these pages you will find a large number of facts, theories and misunderstandings about crop circles. This informative chapter came about by answering the 21 most frequently asked questions. By clicking the pictogram of the question you would like to be answered, you'll be led to the correct page.

Not just for 'beginners' in the crop circle phenomenon are these useful pages to start with...


http://www.circularsite.com/feiten-eng.htm


Edit:

Reading through this website which is done very well, and informative, linking to many websites and organizations studying the crop circle phenomenon scientifically, they actually do now have the criteria to determine if a crop circle is fake or genuine. Turns out all real crop circles are made with Electro-Magenetic Energy, from a point-source with the energy falling off at the inverse square of the distance (Law), and leave many tell-tale signs and disturbances that can not be faked. All of this can be empirically measured and studied. These evidences can not be faked!

I did not know that. Amazing. They can go to a crop circle and can quickly determine these EM anomalies and instantly know real from fake. Very cool.

And of course only highly evolved intelligences can do this.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 15, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Turns out its quite easy to make a crop circle. Once again, your gullibility is out of this world Klimmer.

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Crop-Circle
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
It is called reading comprehension.

I have already said many are hoaxed, but many are not. Read the links and studies that have been done. There are many ground trace evidences that are left with the crop circle that can not be hoaxed.

READ.



Edit:

Actually I would like to rephrase the above. Few are faked, and many more are real. They can instantly scientifically determine fake from real by looking at the EM Energy evidences on the ground and the effect it has on the crop plant species. These EM Energy evidences are either there in abundance (Real) or they are not (Fake).

They can scientifically empirically determine this. Brilliant.

How come I didn't know this before? Some colleges have departments that are researching this phenomenon. Wow!

Someone is not talking this up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 15, 2010 - 11:41pm PT
"Electro-Magenetic Energy, from a point-source with the energy falling off at the inverse square of the distance (Law)"

I guess you don't realize how dumb this makes you sound! What do you reckon it means?

EDIT: "no bending or crushing". So space aliens have lawn mowers. This may be an important clue to their technology.

EDIT#2: Yes RJ. He elected to copy this irrelevant description of how the electric field drops off with distance from a point source because it sounded so scientific. Take an electron, measure the strength of the electric field as a function of distance and it drops off like the one over the distance squared. Has nothing to do with ray guns!


Mike Bolte,

Actually I did write that indicating the evidence they have been finding indicates a EM point source (as opposed to a non-point source), with the effects decreasing away from the center of the crop circles. In physics that is how a point light source behaves as you know. The description is accurate.

So in other words, they can measure the evidence and see it does indeed decrease at the inverse distance square law. In other words, the evidence (the effect), indicates the source (the cause), that was used to create it.

Got a problem with that?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 16, 2010 - 01:40am PT
Crop circles; maybe extraterrestrial gang signs?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_VaqYI8jsY
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 16, 2010 - 02:23am PT
I'm still not sure I'm getting the explanation...
isn't it simpler to assume that some clever persons are doing this?

Or put another way, can you prove it is impossible for it to be done by a person?

I hate to feed this particular troll-tag-team of Rokjox and Klimmer, but honestly guys, you are actually barking...

...and why post this stuff here and now? It's just such an obvious shameless troll.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 05:03am PT
RM,

Very cool.





Ed,

Or put another way, can you prove it is impossible for it to be done by a person?

YES THEY CAN.


Let's just assume that it is done by a person/people hoaxing. So how the heck do they do it?


--Sometimes curious lights are witnessed above the fields at night.


--It would take days of effort to do these designs if you could even possibly do it. Some designs I would say are impossibly complex.


--How do they do it without ever being caught?


--It would take many people not just one.


--How do you even begin to layout some of these complex designs with fallible people doing so on the ground and then at night? Imagine the cluster mess!


--The crop circles usually show up over night. But no one witnessed a bunch of people out there with flashlights, or headlamps making a massive mess of things. It would take an enormous amount of time.


--By the way, some have even shown up during the day. Yet, no one was seen doing it. One moment it isn't there and the next it is, as witnessed by pilots flying over the same region throughout the day!


--No evidence of footprints coming and going, nor within the crop circle itself.


--The plants are often just bent over and not crushed or broken. Still living.


--There are signs of EM energy burns on the plant structures and nodes on the plants having been poped from high energy, perhaps such as Micro-wave. Again from a point source outward from the center.


--Unusual mineral assemblages are sometimes found, such as Fe like micro-spheres throughout the crop cirles. Sometimes they find Silicate microspheres throughout the crop circle.


--They have enough different empirical evidences that are now testable to prove real or hoax. They indeed know the difference.


--Science teams are studying these phenomenon. Papers are being published. Some teams are even associated with Universities.


--Apparently, this hoaxing is world-wide. Apparently a lot of people all over the World have really gotten into hoaxing on a mass level. Where are people finding the time? And you know what? They are just doing all this for a laugh. (sarcasm)



Are you not curious about any of this?



And no it isn't a troll, it is directly relevant to the discussion at hand.

You wanted physical empirical evidence of UFOs/Alien intelligent life. Well, many are pointing to crop circles that just keep popping up all over the place without human intervention, and with very strange and unusual empirical evidence associated with them. Some crop circles are even sending written messages that have been decoded now from purported Aliens. Well, there you go.



BLT RESEARCH TEAM INC.
http://www.bltresearch.com/

Although some modern crop formations are known to have been mechanically-flattened by people, scientific research published by the BLT Research Team in the 1990s has established plant & soil abnormalities which cannot be caused by "pranks with planks".

For details call 617 492 0415 or go to http://www.bltresearch.com


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 16, 2010 - 11:37am PT
doesn't sound to me like this is impossible, especially as there are known hoaxes....
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 16, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
I think Ed's getting worried. Whatever secret weapons system he is working on, the aliens figured it all out a thousand years ago. Alien arrival = unemployment for earthly physicists. lol Welcome to "displacement"...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2010 - 11:19pm PT
RM,

You have hit on a truth . . .

Why is it that the military is sometimes, well OK, all the time light-years ahead of the public Scientific Community?

Military response to All new technology no matter the source:

Wow, what is it? How can we keep it secret? How can we exploit it? Who cares if it violates the laws of Nature as we understand them now. Let's just get it, use it, exploit it, and solely for our own means and power. Cool.



World-wide Science Community response to new technology no matter the source:

Wow, what is it? No way, that can't happen. Denial. Denial. Denial. We have to study this for a long, long time. Careers are based on these studies. What are the implications? Should we use it? Is it morally and ethically right to do so? Eventual acceptance and our understanding of the Laws of Nature are adapted and upgraded. Gee, we gained new knowledge, hey folks that is how pure science works! It takes a long, long time.


In the mean-time the Black Op Military with it's bottom-less budgets are flying around the Solar System and setting up secret off-world bases . . .


Hey, I agree with the moral Scientific Community, but the immoral Black Op Military Community is running circles around us.


(truth wrapped in humor :-))
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 16, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
Perception is funny stuff. When we see something unusual that doesn't fit our perceptual experience, we tend to compulsively jump to an explanation from our base of known understanding. Science and Lipan Apache trained trackers try mightily to avoid that phenomena; and succeed some of the time.

However some things just blow our mind. For example most people have no conception of the sensations experienced in a skydive; and their preconceptions almost always turn out to be quite incorrect. That was certainly true of me, and I already had experience with long leader falls. That is why we start people with tandem skydives for their first two or three jumps, until they get used to the idea. Once you get used to the unusual perceptions, it turns out to be a wonderful sport.

Another example is flying rockets and space travel, which are very non-intuitive. Astronauts experience various disorienting phenomena that are nothing like what Hollywood portrays.

A related example is the 'fireflys' viewed outside his Mercury spacecraft by the first orbiting American, John Glenn; a very level-headed guy if there ever was one. The next Mercury astronaut, Scott Carpenter, was so intrigued by these 'fireflys' that he ignored Mission Control orders and almost used up all his thruster fuel chasing them around; and could have burned up in the upper atmosphere due to loss of control on re-entry. (He was never allowed to fly again.) These 'fireflys' are now a familiar phenomena and turn out to be brightly sunlit ice crystals from the urine dump valve.

I once made a particular business trip from D.C. to Sandia and Los Alamos; and one of my good friends found out about it. She was the owner of a well respected consulting company in Maryland. She flew out to join me, because she wanted me to confirm her sightings of UFOs in the Albuquerque area. (No this was not Linda Moulton Howe, who is one of the most careful observers I've ever known.)

So this friend and I were driving from Albuquerque towards Santa Fe and she pointed out a couple of 'Mother Ships' hovering over Santa Fe. It turns out that she was not used to seeing lenticular clouds over Washington D.C.! She was quite chagrined at my explanation.

A little later in the trip we stayed at Aqua Caliente and that night hiked the clear desert night to the top of a hill. From the top of the hill she was startled to see a bright white light pass over us from South to Northeast without making a sound; and she challenged me to explain that one! I told her to count to 12 and see what happens. My timing guess was just about right for the double sonic boom that hit us.

I'm not at all saying that everything people see has such easy explanations; just that we have to be very careful, even with trained observers.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 12:31am PT
Rokjox,

You are asking questions close to my heart.

A German named Eugen Saengler invented the idea back in 1935 with his Silbervogel.

It requires a great deal of energy to change the orbital plane of a spacecraft; almost as much as the energy to launch it. Saengler published papers proposing a vehicle that could descend into the upper atmosphere and use aerodynamic effects to change its orbital plane, and then skip back off into space like a skipping stone on a pond.

The USAF picked up on the idea in the late 1950s with the Dyna-soar space program as a successor to the X-15. In my opinion it was for various reasons our best idea for space vehicles. That program produced the X-20 and X-24 that proved the re-entry concepts that were later used for our Space Shuttle Program. Dyna-soar was canceled in favor of a civilian space launch program: the Vanguard, that didn't turn out too well.

The X-37 mini-shuttle is somewhat of a revitalization of that idea. It was sitting partially forgotten in a hanger at NASA Dryden for years, and I was privileged to spend hours crawling around admiring it. Recently the USAF picked up on the idea and launched it. It can stay up much longer than a couple of weeks.

I don't know much more than that as to what the USAF has in mind for it, but it's not difficult to imagine the advantages of an eye in the sky that can rapidly change orbits.

There are several commercial ventures that are currently taking advantage of the research done for the Dyna-soar program. I am a big promoter of the idea of a very small vehicle that is closer to a powered skydiver than a spaceplane.

Another German, Alban Geisler, is developing this idea with his SkyRay and Gryphon; with a version marketed through SpelCo. They have made many hundreds of test flights. The mini-jet turbine and solid-rocket powered Gryphon wing is air-launched at high altitude from a cargo plane with a skydiver pilot in a pressure suit, with fly-by-wire flight stabilization, seamless transition from aerodynamic control to thruster control, and helmet-mounted full avionics display. I think this idea will have the same impact on space travel as the personal computer relative to mainframe computers.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 01:01am PT
Very interesting . . .

Crop Circles: Quest for Truth Documentary Trailer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vxuBDFeeI&feature=player_embedded

Crop Circles: Quest for Truth Website
http://www.cropcirclesthemovie.com/


Welcome to the Crop Circle Connector
http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/interface2005.htm


CROP CIRCLES - Hidden Mysteries' is the most ambitious and important DVD production that we have produced so far on the crop circle phenomenon.
http://www.cccvault.com/cccvideos/trailer09c.html




Good, but not really looking at the plant stock evidence and difference between hoaxed and real. NGS, kinda glosses over that. There are definitive differences, that research teams are very aware of now. Even the burned/popped nodes the grain doctor can't explain and they admit that. Also, the team they hired to do a crop circle still took 5 hours and that was in daylight! The design they did was a very repeatable pattern also. Didn't really address the fact that crop circles have shown up in daylight, and very complex and within minutes yet no one witnessed anyone do it. Yes, some are hoaxed but not all. Shameful and dishonest debunking by NGS.

NGS: Crop Circles - Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6mSLqRWzcc&feature=related

NGS: Crop Circles - Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqV5iEcy7T8&feature=related

Crop Circles - Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Z8SPma9I0&NR=1

Crop Circles - Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLzKP8rYiD4&feature=related

Crop Circles - Part 5 Final
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcIhdXFe0bM&feature=related

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 01:34am PT
It seems fairly likely that there is at least one agent provocateur participating in this thread.

I'm reminded on an old South African saying that whenever three people gather to conspire, two are police agents and the third a fool.

I'm also reminded of the old saying that you should never argue with a fool, because people won't be able to tell the difference.

I am unimpressed by people hiding their identity. And I will be a lot more impressed if people will constrain themselves to treating each other with polite respect.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 17, 2010 - 01:48am PT
Permit me to doubt that anything in low earth orbit could 'bounce' off the atmosphere without losing some kinetic energy/momentum, and likely de-orbiting, unless some energy was added at some point. Newtonian physics applies to space planes, too. Anything hitting the atmosphere, even very obliquely, will lose some energy. Ed?

But if Rokjox says that the passengers on the space plane can't make phone calls while it's re-entering, for once I'll agree with him.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 17, 2010 - 02:05am PT
A robotic space fighter for sattelite destruction would require the ability to launch into VERY high orbits, far beyond anything ever achieved by the shuttle.

I would only need to fire it's weapons at things in very high orbits, which is different than having to go them itself.

Having a space fighter seems like a likely program the military would consider a high priority. Whoever has the first space fighter rules.

Could also defend against aliens if they think there are any (but sort of a joke given the technology aliens would have to have. Maybe they are so advanced they don't realize what bloodthirsty bastards we could be and don't have weaponized crafts)

Peace

Karl
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 17, 2010 - 03:22am PT
1. Where is the little mini-shuttle?
It should be on its way back any time now, 12 days was it's advertised limits.

Where in the world do you get your disinformation? All the specs I saw said up to 9 months!

2. What good is a mini shuttle with no cargo bay, no pilot and no room for troops or satellites?

Again, you obviously are not well informed. How could you possibly think there is no cargo bay?

6. Who is the manufacturer?
It must have taken thousands of guys to build it,

Also, not a big secret. The X-37 has been around for a number of years.

7. Why haven't we already heard all about it?
We know that nobody in Government or private industry can keep a secret.

What??? We have. Maybe YOU haven't. Try this TOP SECRET DOCUMENT, it will answer all your questions, but shhhhh, keep it on the down low, we don't want any black helicopters eavesdropping on us.



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 17, 2010 - 03:35am PT
my dear old dad said to me on numerous occasions, "lay down with dogs, get up with fleas"

no wonder that I'm scratching a lot lately...




dudes, check this out:
http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_21_2222.html

We seemed to have signed the treaty...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty




Boeing built the X-37
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 17, 2010 - 03:50am PT
How to "prove" someone is a witch...

Klimmer: There are ways of *telling* whether she is a witch!
Roxjok: Are there? What? Tell us, then! Tell us!
Klimmer: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Roxjok: BUUUURN!!!!! BUUUUUURRRRNN!!!!! You BURN them!!!! BURN!!
Klimmer: And what do you burn apart from witches?
Other villager: More Witches!
Roxjok: Wood.
Klimmer: So. Why do witches burn?
Roxjok: (tentatively) Because they're made of.....wood?
Klimmer: Goooood!
Klimmer: So. How do we tell whether she is made of wood?
Roxjok: Build a bridge out of 'er!
Klimmer: Aah. But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
Villagers: oh yeah. oh. umm...
Klimmer: Does wood sink in water?
One Villager: No! No, no, it floats!
Roxjok: Throw her into the pond!
Villagers: yaaaaaa!
Klimmer: What also floats in water?
Roxjok: Bread!
Another Villager: Apples!
Roxjok: Uh...very small rocks!
Another Villager: Cider!
Another Villager: Uh...great gravy!
Roxjok: Cherries!
Another Villager: Mud!
Roxjok: Churches! Churches!
Another Villager: Lead! Lead!
Roxjok: A Duck!
Villagers: (in amazement) ooooooh!
Klimmer: exACTly!
Klimmer: So, *logically*...

Roxjok: If...she...weighs the same as a duck......she's made of wood.

Klimmer: and therefore...

Roxjok: A Witch!
All Villagers: A WITCH!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 17, 2010 - 04:47am PT
Ed wrote

my dear old dad said to me on numerous occasions, "lay down with dogs, get up with fleas"

no wonder that I'm scratching a lot lately...

dudes, check this out:
http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_21_2222.html

We seemed to have signed the treaty...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

So you're not quite saying that the United States is really committed to the peaceful only use of outer space are you?

We signed the NPT but have enough nukes to ruin the planet a dozen times over with bombs to spare

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 09:34am PT
The fact that NASA is part of DoD is no secret.

Someone should post up that evidence. It is in abundance. At the moment I don't have the time.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 11:04am PT
Mighty Hiker,

Yes, an orbiting space plane loses energy by going into the upper atmosphere. This either puts you in a lower and faster orbit; or you keep skipping and eventually return to earth. You need a re-boost to maintain or gain a higher orbit.

The Dyna-soar design includes an expendable service module with two engines: one liquid and one solid. The liquid can be used either for a re-boost burn or a de-orbit burn. The solid is there as a backup for a de-orbit burn in case you can't re-light the liquid fueled engine and need to return the crew to earth in an emergency.

The Dyna-soar solid-fuel engine also serves as a launch-abort escape system. For other programs the launch-abort escape system is normally dead weight that gets thrown away once you are high enough in the launch phase i.e. Mercury, Apollo, Orion. For Dyna-soar it also gives you a very valuable backup for an emergency de-orbit burn.

Now you have me starting to list the reasons why I think the Dyna-soar is such a good design.

I worked on the Orion launch-abort system which is currently being tested; and got a NASA award for my contributions to the design of the launch emergency detection system. I lobbied heavily for the Dyna-soar approach. There were some studies commissioned to look at variants of it that would work on a capsule type space vehicle. But someone made a decision to stay with an Apollo style throw-away launch-abort tower. I'm not sure if the reasons were technical or just political.

The X-37 does have a large liquid-fueled engine and fairly large fuel tanks, but not solid-fuel engines so far as I know. But it is not currently designed to keep a crew alive. I'm not telling you anything that is not widely published on the internet; and that is where I get most of my own information.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 11:17am PT
I am interested in some of these discussions and think they can be very worthwhile. I am not interested in the defaming and irrelevant cross talk between members. I left the Washington D.C. area because the primary local sport seems to be character defamation. I didn't get to be a target, but didn't want to stick around until becoming one. It's also why I left the Camp 4 community. I didn't return to communicating with this community because my tolerance for this sort of thing has gotten any better. Those of you who have self-worth ego challenges should find some better way to resolve them than anonymous personality clashes in an open forum.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 11:37am PT
HFCS,

religion has some aspects like climbing a big mountain. on the lower slopes there are many paths. however as you go higher on the mountain there are fewer paths. the summit does not care by what path you arrive...

although i like this analogy, it is limited. in my opinion our society has just barely begun our education into the nature of reality
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 17, 2010 - 11:43am PT
Karl asks:
So you're not quite saying that the United States is really committed to the peaceful only use of outer space are you?

I guess it depends on what you consider peaceful to be.

 The GPS system was launched to improve the accuracy of ballistic missiles.

 Spy satellites to provide accurate location information and intelligence

 Underseas mapping of density, speed-of-sound measurements, seafloor mapping, cataloging undersea sounds all to aid in submarine force.

etc...

All of these technologies are dual use, as far as having weapons floating around in orbit, so far we are adhering to the stronger interpretations of the treaty.

As with everything, defense of the national resources against hostile challenges is a role the federal government has and must fulfill. So we are prepared/preparing to meet the military challenges of other nations.

In our democracy, all voices are heard, even those who would advocate for an escalated military presence in space. The best thing we can do as a populace is to inform ourselves on the issues and be prepared to participate in choosing the country's leadership.

That leadership is only as wise as the people electing it to office.
MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 17, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
rokjox
I just get tired of being called such an idiot by Pate and Meetball, I wanted to let them have a chance.

RokJox you are the largest wind bag perhaps to ever haunt a forum. I feel sorry for your family and if any of them need some help, or perhaps you could do everyone a favor and self admit, here is a place and number for them/you to call:
Intermountain Hospital
303 North Allumbaugh
Boise, ID 83704
800-321-5984
http://www.intermountainhospital.com

God speed---
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
May 17, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
Tom, I really appreciate your posts.
But someone made a decision to stay with an Apollo style throw-away launch-abort tower.

Speaking of the launch abort tower...it too was tested recently (May 6th).
It is designed for the new Orion crew vehicle.
Orion Crew Vehicle launch abort system
The video of the test is awesome.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
The evidence that NASA and the DoD are in bed together is overwhelming . . .

Google Search: Is NASA DoD?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS301US324&q=Is+NASA+DoD%3f&safe=active

Welcome to the NASA/DoD Agreements Archive
http://www.sti.nasa.gov/codeid/

Obama considers linking Defense Dept. with NASA
by Jennifer Guevin , January 3, 2009 2:14 PM PST
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-10130563-76.html
(So much for change we can believe in. Might as well, since it would be easier than lying about it and trying to maintain the illusion of separation. Then NASA can easily tap into that bottom-less secret Black-Op monies account. Wow, cool! (Sarcasm) )

Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara go into great detail on this idea that the separation between NASA and DoD, and the fact that it is just an illusion in their book:
Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA
http://www.darkmission.net

SPACE - The Final Frontier Without Truth? Or - The REAL NASA You Don't See... And How Things Really Work
By Ted Twietmeyer
tedtw@frontiernet.net
2-8-4
http://www.rense.com/general49/SPACEthefinalfrontier.htm


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
May 17, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
Pate,

A civilization is based upon trust, and I agree that a great deal of the trust that holds our society together has been betrayed. So I don't expect to be granted any special regard. If I share something and you prove me wrong, then I am just as much inerested in knowing that as you are.

I do have more of an insider view into the space programs than most, having been very involved for many years. However I do not have any special clearances other than the usual checks required of anyone who provides services to the government.

I think that open internet forums offer hope to learn and share knowledge. My hope has been that there is a certain amount of shared trust and intelligence within the climbing community. I know there is a lot of disinformation being put out to obscure the truth regarding some topics. So I am very disappointed to see the disrespect being slung around. To my way of thinking that is just useless noise in the system and is perhaps being instigated as part of a disinformation campaign. If we can't get beyond the noise of personal attacks, then this forum is a waste of time for all involved.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 17, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
This proves the Klimmer was right. The Ark is the one on top.

http://www.deslockdarkstar.com/pics/starships/Starship%20comparison.gif
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 17, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
Tom,
It is nice to have another informed voice of reason here as it has been a lonely vigil for Rok. Seriously, I've always defended him as he does make an attmept to address the facts. His problem is that he tries to make points that some of our patrons don't appreciate and we certainly don't want any alternative viewpoints expressed here now do we?

As for the X-37 I fail to see how it could carry enough fuel for any significant orbit change. It has similar aerodynamics to the space shuttle which is to say an L/D of about 4.5* which means a lot of fuel is needed to 'fly'. Of course no amount of lift will get you very far above 20 miles. The original X-20 suffered from a lack of mission other than proof-of-concept. Apparently the Air Force now has a mission or two in mind and you can rest assured it ain't pure science. Anybody for 'Chinese take-out'?


*It should be noted that it is debatable whether you are really flying if your L/D is 4.5 as that is only marginally better than a good skipping stone or the first hang gliders.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
In this article . . .

SPACE - The Final Frontier Without Truth? Or - The REAL NASA You Don't See... And How Things Really Work
By Ted Twietmeyer
tedtw@frontiernet.net
2-8-4
http://www.rense.com/general49/SPACEthefinalfrontier.htm


Ted mentions the TR3.



I have heard of this craft (TR3) before and also "the Aurora" but hadn't really looked into it. Well, when someone who used to work with NASA mentions it, then my ears pick-up.

Found this article by an insider who describes as much as they can and what they know regarding the TR-3B. Very, very interesting to say the least . . .

Secret Government Technology and the TR-3B
by Edgar Rothschild Fouche
from Seekers Website
recovered through WayBackMachine Website
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_extraterrestrialtech07.htm

Original website for Secret Government Technology and the TR-3B:
Very slow load . . .
http://web.archive.org/web/20030216073253/http:/www.seekers.100megs6.com/UFOMANSecretFouche.htm


If even a 20th of this is true, then this is really, really incredible. Perhaps many of the UFO sightings are indeed ours, as well as theirs.



lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 17, 2010 - 07:05pm PT
Klimmer you need to give this and yourself a rest.

No secrets on DOD and NASA

http://www.defensetechbriefs.com/component/content/article/7143.

Hit NASA Tech briefs, twitter their page and discuss your observations.

Now for the next site http://www.defense-update.com/index.html

Interesting piece on new shuttle in lower right hand corner “X-37B” finishing reading that, then hit search towards the top, when search comes up hit the second one on the right.

Type in space aliens: A couple thousand of them: from Dan Ackroyd on Larry King to this one:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects56.htm

Any similarities with the web? Same website WayBackMachine Look at his answer #21. When do you plan to go to Stockholm?

You are getting caught up or lost in your own/their propaganda. Maybe it is something you are eating or not eating.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 17, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
And Klimmer hasn’t even got to the “Mystery of the Mutilated Cows.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
Pate,

A civilization is based upon trust, and I agree that a great deal of the trust that holds our society together has been betrayed. So I don't expect to be granted any special regard. If I share something and you prove me wrong, then I am just as much inerested in knowing that as you are.

I do have more of an insider view into the space programs than most, having been very involved for many years. However I do not have any special clearances other than the usual checks required of anyone who provides services to the government.

I think that open internet forums offer hope to learn and share knowledge. My hope has been that there is a certain amount of shared trust and intelligence within the climbing community. I know there is a lot of disinformation being put out to obscure the truth regarding some topics. So I am very disappointed to see the disrespect being slung around. To my way of thinking that is just useless noise in the system and is perhaps being instigated as part of a disinformation campaign. If we can't get beyond the noise of personal attacks, then this forum is a waste of time for all involved.



Pate you are the worst. Tom is honest. Speaks his mind without belittling anyone, calls you and anyone else like you out, and you still don't get it do you?

Why do you continue to ridicule and act the way you do? Do you get that climbers on ST are tired of it and you?

If you can't contribute in a positive way on a thread then why contribute at all?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
Pate,

This thread was clearly marked OT. You do not have to contribute to this thread. Is anyone holding a gun up to your head to do so? No.

You know nothing about me really. Yes, I love climbing and I like talking to fellow climbers. I do not always have to talk climbing though. Climbing is the background jeweler's cloth and the jewels are the OT conversations.

You can ignore threads that you do not like. Easy to do. Let the ones who do want to discuss the topic do so in peace without your constant ridicule and constant name calling.

But all of this is probably above your comprehension. I don't expect you to understand manners and how to treat others the way you would like to be treated. In other words, The Golden Rule. It isn't in you.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 17, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
Hey Klimmer, don't look now but there is a man humping your leg.
kbstuffnpuff

Sport climber
State of Confusion
May 17, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
I don't get this thread at all.



I'm too stoned.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
PX,

Lol. Don't I know it.

I try to shake him off and he just keeps humping away.

And the sad part is he keeps doing it in public too!

I'm thinking he hasn't been house broken yet. I think treatment with Victoria Stillwell is in order. The thing is he would probably start humping her leg also. He seems to be into the dominatrix sort of thing. I wouldn't want a beautiful woman like her to suffer though.

What can be done?
MisterE

Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
May 18, 2010 - 12:20am PT
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
May 18, 2010 - 01:16am PT
Klimmer,

This is exceptionally captivating!

However it is a fundamental truth that I and many others simply do not bother, or refuse, to click links. You have provided scores if not hundreds.

Perhaps a better way to make your points would be to quote the important bits, and then add the link below?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2010 - 09:59am PT
Uh . . . oh another book to put on my Amazon.com wish list . . .

Alien Rapture: The Chosen [Paperback]
Edgar Rothschild Fouche and Brad Steiger (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Rapture-Edgar-Rothschild-Fouche/dp/1880090503/sr=8-1/qid=1169572986/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8789409-2334503?ie=UTF8&s=books#noop

-- A "Fictional" story about the truth of Area 51. Names are changed but the stories are based on real situations and technology developed and being developed.

See his website, Edgar Rothschild's "Secret Government Technology & the TR-3B" (slow load):
http://web.archive.org/web/20030216073253/http:/www.seekers.100megs6.com/UFOMANSecretFouche.htm

Faster load:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_extraterrestrialtech07.htm



I would like to talk about Majestic 12, the document, and what Petty Officer Milton William Cooper has to say about it all. He bullets a list of everything he knows regarding MJ 12, UFOs/Aliens and their ultimate agenda. He also gave his address and telephone number way back when, (can't imagine that he is still around):

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicmaj.html
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_mj12_9.htm


The implications of which bring this all back and complete the circle for this discussion. What is the ultimate agenda of UFOs/Aliens and our shadow government's involvement with them?

Scary.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
May 18, 2010 - 10:49am PT
too lazy to clink links?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 18, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
Confirmation bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias


Confirmation bias is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true. People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way, or by selectively recalling information from memory. Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.


People tend to test hypotheses in a one-sided way, focusing on one possibility and neglecting alternatives This strategy is not necessarily a bias, but combined with other effects it can reinforce existing beliefs. The biases appear in particular for issues that are emotionally significant (including some personal and political topics) and for established beliefs that shape the individual's expectations. Biased search, interpretation and/or recall have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a stronger weighting for data encountered early in an arbitrary series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events).

Confirmation biases are effects in information processing, distinct from the behavioral confirmation effect (also called self-fulfilling prophecy), in which people's expectations influence their own behavior. They can lead to disastrous decisions, especially in organizational, military and political contexts Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 18, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
FACT: Aliens have a impeccable sense of design.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
May 18, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
Skippy thinks that if Aliens were to ever exist, their purpose would be to leave "art" examples at the places they've been.

Talk about crazy theories--sheesh!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 18, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
Now that we've conquered the inexhaustible energy supply necessary, and pillaged the material wealth of our world to enable intra/inter-galactic travel, let's go visit that obscure little planet inhabited by those charming primitive, bipedals. Once there we'll risk descending through their atmosphere to doodle in their vegetation and then split or hide behind their moon and have a good laugh.

Sure, makes sense to me. The saddest part about threads like this and all the ET hullaballoo is what it says about the fragility of human ego - of course we'd be visited, of course we matter, of course the universe is consumed in curiousity about us. The truth is way more likely that planets of intelligent life come and go in the blink of comsological time without so much as the slightest awareness or acknowledgment of their existence by any other form of intelligent life.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
May 18, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
You're a pretty insightful person, sir--the almighty dollar is always at the forefront of your thoughts.



Didn't dinosaurs go extinct because they couldn't adapt to change and evolve with the consciousness of the planet?


Your world has left, Skip--best for you to huddle with your kind and rekindle the past by talking about how money was sooo important.
Gene

Social climber
May 18, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
I would like to talk about Majestic 12, the document, and what Petty Officer Milton William Cooper has to say about it all. {SNIP} (can't imagine that he is still around):

EAGER, AZ - William Cooper has been killed and an Apache County sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said.

William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville, which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns.
http://www.rense.com/general16/coop.htm

I guess the govt/military/alien industrial complex had to take him out in order to preserve secrecy.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 18, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
How to "prove" someone is a witch...

Klimmer: There are ways of *telling* whether she is a witch!
Roxjok: Are there? What? Tell us, then! Tell us!
Klimmer: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Roxjok: BUUUURN!!!!! BUUUUUURRRRNN!!!!! You BURN them!!!! BURN!!
Klimmer: And what do you burn apart from witches?
Other villager: More Witches!
Roxjok: Wood.
Klimmer: So. Why do witches burn?
Roxjok: (tentatively) Because they're made of.....wood?
Klimmer: Goooood!
Klimmer: So. How do we tell whether she is made of wood?
Roxjok: Build a bridge out of 'er!
Klimmer: Aah. But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
Villagers: oh yeah. oh. umm...
Klimmer: Does wood sink in water?
One Villager: No! No, no, it floats!
Roxjok: Throw her into the pond!
Villagers: yaaaaaa!
Klimmer: What also floats in water?
Roxjok: Bread!
Another Villager: Apples!
Roxjok: Uh...very small rocks!
Another Villager: Cider!
Another Villager: Uh...great gravy!
Roxjok: Cherries!
Another Villager: Mud!
Roxjok: Churches! Churches!
Another Villager: Lead! Lead!
Roxjok: A Duck!
Villagers: (in amazement) ooooooh!
Klimmer: exACTly!
Klimmer: So, *logically*...

Roxjok: If...she...weighs the same as a duck......she's made of wood.

Klimmer: and therefore...

Roxjok: A Witch!
All Villagers: A WITCH!

this was good enough to be posted again.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
May 18, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
pate, look at the bright side. the more time klimmer posts here is less time he is teaching his students. that sounds like an all around plus in my book...
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 18, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
Klimmer you wrote at the beginning of this post:

“No matter what you think about all of this, NASA could easily confirm it or refute it if they just release all the high-resolution LRO imagery that they now are bound to have. They probably have enough imagery now of this site in very high resolution to view the craft from multiple 3D perspectives.

NASA needs to release all the LRO imagery they have taken. This imagery database is ours. We paid for it with our tax dollars. NASA should release all of it through a searchable Lat./Long. on-line database. We need to do this.

If NASA can do the following with all the Apollo landing sites, and they can, including finding Soviet Moon-rovers, then they can easily do so with this site supposively explored by Apollo 20 on the backside of the Moon”

“we paid for it with our tax dollars”

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/whereislro/

and sign in and become a space cadet on this site:

Moonzoo.org

They say do not count all the craters, I say you do. It will keep you busy for a while. Get back if you see anybody climbing.

I am out of here: places to go, people to see, things to do. If this post hits a 1000 maybe I will take a peek.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 18, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
Oh! And by the way just one more thing when they do snatch you:

“Click your heels three times” and say “I want to go home”.

And tell them “Please, please I will never post anything like this ever again on ST again” maybe they will let you go.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
I would like to talk about Majestic 12, the document, and what Petty Officer Milton William Cooper has to say about it all. {SNIP} (can't imagine that he is still around):

EAGER, AZ - William Cooper has been killed and an Apache County sheriff's deputy wounded in a shootout, authorities said.

William Milton Cooper, 58, of Eager, had hosted a talk show broadcast on the Worldwide Christian Radio out of Nashville, which receives it via phone from his home in St. Johns.
http://www.rense.com/general16/coop.htm

I guess the govt/military/alien industrial complex had to take him out in order to preserve secrecy.



Gene,

Thanks.

Duh on my part. Posted too early in the am. I knew I had heard that name before. Bill Cooper. I have listened to his talks along time ago on Youtube or other, and I've had his book, Behold a Pale Horse on my wish list for many years. Haven't read it yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_William_Cooper

Behold A Pale Horse- William Cooper 1 of 28. NWO. Illuminati. Shadow. Global. Government. Agenda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6faQnv4YW0Q&feature=related

Behold a Pale Horse [Paperback]
William Cooper (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-William-Cooper/dp/0929385225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274239403&sr=8-1


LostinShanghai,

Thanks for the link. Nice find.

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/whereislro/






Also this historic document indicates the connection between NASA and DoD:

National Aeronautics and Space Act of 1958 (Unamended)
http://history.nasa.gov/spaceact.html

DEFINITIONS

Sec. 103. As used in this Act--

(1) the term "aeronautical and space activities" means(A) research into, and the solution of, problems of flight within and outside the earth's atmosphere, (B) the development, construction, testing, and operation for research purposes of aeronautical and space vehicles, and (C) such other activities as may be required for the exploration of space; and

(2) the term "aeronautical and space vehicles" means aircraft, missiles, satellites, and other space vehicles, manned and unmanned, together with related equipment, devices, components, and parts.


NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE COUNCIL

Sec. 201. (a) There is hereby established the National Aeronautics and Space Council (hereinafter called the "Council") which shall be composed of--

(1) the President (who shall preside over meetings of the Council);

(2) the Secretary of State;

(3) the Secretary of Defense



(4) provide for effective cooperation between the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and the Department of Defense in all such activities, and specify which of such activities may be carried on concurrently by both such agencies notwithstanding the assignment of primary responsibility therefor to one or the other of such agencies; and

(5) resolve differences arising among departments and agencies of the United States with respect to aeronautical and space activities under this Act, including differences as to whether a particular project is an aeronautical and space activity.


CIVILIAN-MILITARY LIAISON COMMITTEE

Sec. 204 (a) There shall be a Civilian-Military Liaison Committee consisting of--

(1) a Chairman, who shall be the head thereof and who shall be appointed by the President, shall serve at the pleasure of the President, and shall receive compensation (in the manner provided in subsection (d)) at the rate of $20,000 per annum;

(2) one or more representatives from the Department of Defense, and one or more representatives from each of the Departments of the Army, Navy, and Air Force, to be assigned by the Secretary of Defense to serve on the Committee without additional compensation; and

(3) representatives from the Administration, to be assigned by the Administrator to serve on the Committee without additional compensation, equal in number to the number of representatives assigned to serve on the Committee under paragraph (2).

(b) The Administration and the Department of Defense, through the Liaison Committee, shall advise and consult with each other on all matters within their respective jurisdictions relating to aeronautical and space activities and shall keep each other fully and currently informed with respect to such activities.

(c) If the Secretary of Defense concludes that any request, action, proposed action, or failure to act on the part of the Administrator is adverse to the responsibilities of the Department of Defense, or the Administrator concludes that any request, action, or proposed action, or failure to act on the part of the Department of Defense is adverse to the responsibilities of the Administration, and the Administrator and the Secretary of Defense are unable to reach an agreement with respect thereto, either the Administrator or the Secretary of Defense may refer the matter to the President for his decision (which shall be final) as provided in section 201 (e).

(d) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, any active or retired officer of the Army, Navy, or Air Force may serve as Chairman of the Liaison Committee without prejudice to his active or retired status as such officer. The compensation received by any such officer for his service as Chairman of the Liaison Committee shall be equal to the amount (if any) by which the compensation fixed by subsection (a) (1) for such Chairman exceeds his pay and allowances (including special and incentive pays) as an active officer, or his retired pay.






Bottom line, NASA and DoD have always had a very, very close relationship.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 19, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
That original picture Klimmer posted is obviously one of the early dinosaur craft. They probably built these on earth @ 400 million years ago, after they'd been working on the flight problem for over 40 million years....or so. They were constructed for a Mars landing I suspect, and this one craft probably took a left turn so one of the dinosaurs could stop, get out, and take a dump on the moon. It most likely crashed when the impatient dinosaur opened the door before the thing had actually landed.

These things happen as we all know.

BTW, as far as solving the radiation on the computer thing limiting interstellar travel, we have had computers less long than when dinosaurs were here. I looked for a graph of this interesting phenomena, but didn't find one. Ask Jim D, bet he was there and has the first hand eyeball on it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 01:18am PT
Some great finds . . .

NASA Employed Photo Artists To Airbrush Out Apollo Anomalies!
http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/airbrush.htm


Sen John Glenn's Amazing UFO Statement On 'Frasier "COMPLETE FOOTAGE"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcSfonxTyu8&feature=related


If you can get a copy of this out of print paperback you should buy it (warning: it is now expensive). I have it. All the NASA missions from Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo had UFO encounters. This book goes into detail on all of this and has actual radio transmissions that are transcribed. Some of which were only captured by HAM radio operators back on Earth and then transcribed. Good book. Ignore the Russians thinking the Moon is hollow and a Spaceship. The value of this book is the NASA Astronaut confessions.

Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon [Paperback]
Don Wilson (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Mysterious-Spaceship-Moon-Wilson/dp/044006550X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274331805&sr=8-2


Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 20, 2010 - 10:34am PT

"Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon [Paperback]"

"Good book. Ignore the Russians thinking the Moon is hollow and a Spaceship. The value of this book is the NASA Astronaut confessions."

You take a book that lies about the entire moon being a giant spaceship built by aliens--a premise that is so ridiculous absurd that even you, Klimmer, does not believe it, and then selectively rely on the lies it tells about the NASA astronauts to support its premise and recommend it as a "good book" that we should buy.

I'll file your post in the "more evidence that Klimmer is crazy" cabinet.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 20, 2010 - 11:43am PT
Geez, ease up on the broad tar brush! Does he not say only part of it is worthwhile? I gotta say that Klimmer has displayed a remarkable degree of grace and even self-deprecation in the face of all this hatin'.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 20, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
Bump to send this baby to 1000!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 20, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
pedge

Trad climber
SW
May 20, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
Lesser gods, fairies, elves, gremlins, angels, demons, aliens and super duper government agents all share special powers and the need to keep their presence among us secret, although they just aren’t that good at laying low as some of us regularly catch glimpses of them or their shadows. The people who have a need to believe in some higher powered beings who are mostly like us but a little better seem to be the same people who need to believe that there are races of people around who are mostly like us but a little bit worse in some way. Maybe these needs share a common root.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 20, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
So long as you believe there are 'great beyonds' in the empyrean sense, it's unavoidable that all manner of anthropomorphians of will escape from those worlds to this everytime you see a shadow, lack an answer, or seek dominion over your fellow man.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
More regarding NASA employees altering images from the Moon to remove evidence . . .

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nasa+airbrushed+ufos&aq=1


NASA Airbrushed UFOs - Lunar Base Towers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3wGLC_sjTQ

The Aliens on the Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2mY2bbaumI


Alien Moon Bases: Glenn Steckling Pt.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KN4TTx4ijc&feature=related
Alien Moon Bases: Glenn Steckling Pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNlLBkxyAGY&feature=related
Alien Moon Bases: Glenn Steckling Pt.3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbpnoqXK_do&feature=related


Alien moon,Why NASA Never Returned To The Moon, 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjn10Of2hPs&feature=related
Alien moon,The UFOs Seen On The Moon, 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnnEeIJQ4Wo&feature=related
MOON-Alien moon,Spherical UFOs and Flying Serpents, 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jotdaXX1w2A&feature=related



These are all very Patriotic Americans and all very Brave. They are Heros!

A really good film preview . . .
The "UFO - The Greatest Story Ever Denied" movie, by Jose Escamilla.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgO2HQ_42xo
http://tblnfilms.com/UFOTGSED.html

http://moonrising-themovie.com/index.html
Gene

Social climber
May 20, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/moonbase.htm


Alien Moon Base


SUBJECT: Moon Sightings FILE: UFO50


I'm not to sure of this as i dont have the book to
hand (Above Top Secret), but wasn't there a report that the crew
of the eagle (Armstrong et al), when they left the module,
turned round and found themselves looking at alien craft at the
top of a crater?
(The following file was posted on InfoNet London
Ontario)

Alien Moon Base
by UFO Joe, InfoNet


Is there an "Alien Base" on the Moon. More and more people
are coming forward with stories of an Alien presence on the
Moon. Rumors are that their "Moon Base" is on the dark side
of the moon, the side we never see from Earth.

Did you ever wonder why the Moon landings stopped and why
have we not tried to build a Moon Base. It seems a better and
easier idea than a floating space station?

According to Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on the
Moon and wanted us to get off and stay off the Moon! Milton
Cooper a Naval Intellegence Officer tell us that the
Intellegence community calls the Alien Base "Luna":

LUNA: The Alien base on the far side of the Moon. It
was seen and filmed by the Apollo Astronauts. A base, a mining
operation using very large machines, and the very large alien
craft described in sighting reports as MOTHER SHIPS exist there.
 Milton Cooper

* * *

Did Apollo 11 Encounter UFOs on the Moon?
from the Book "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good

According to hitherto unconfirmed reports, both Neil
Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after that
historic landing on the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July 1969. I
remember hearing one of the astronauts refer to a "light" in
or on a crater during the television transmission, followed by
a request from mission control for further information. Nothing
more was heard.

According to a former NASA employee Otto Binder, unnamed
radio hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed
NASA's broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange:

NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...

Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
They're on the Moon watching us!

In 1979 Maurice Chatelain, former chief of NASA
Communications Systems confirmed that Armstrong had indeed
reported seeing two UFOs on the rim of a crater. "The encounter
was common knowledge in NASA," he revealed, "but nobody has
talked about it until now."

Soviet scientists were allegedly the first to confirm
the incident. "According to our information, the encounter
was reported immediately after the landing of the module," said
Dr. Vladimir Azhazha, a physicist and Professor of
Mathematics at Moscow University. "Neil Armstrong relayed the
message to Mission Control that two large, mysterious objects
were watching them after having landed near the moon module.
But his message was never heard by the public - because NASA
censored it. "According to another Soviet scientist, Dr.
Aleksandr Kazantsev, Buss Aldrin took color movie film of the
UFOs from inside the module, and continued filming them after
he and Armstrong went outside. Dr. Azhazha claims that the
UFOs departed minutes after the astronauts came out on to the
lunar surface.

Maurice Chatelain also confirmed that Apollo 11's
radio transmissions were interrupted on several occasions in
order to hide the news from the public. Before dismissing
Chatelain's sensational claims, it is worth noting his
impressive background in the aerospace industry and space
program. His first job after moving from France was as an
electronics engineer with Convair, specializing in
telecommunications, telemetry and radar. In 1959 he was in
charge of an electromagnetic research group, developing new
radar and telecommunications systems for Ryan. One of his
eleven patents was an automatic radar landing system that
ignited retro rockets at a given altitude, used in the
Ranger and Surveyor flights to the Moon. Later, at North
American Aviation, Chatelain was offered the job of designing
and building the Apollo communications and data-processing
systems.

Chatelain claims that "all Apollo and Gemini flights
were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite
closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying
saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name.
Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission
Control, who then ordered absolute silence." He goes on to
say:

"I think that Walter Schirra aboard Mercury 8 was the
first of the astronauts to use the code name 'Santa Claus'
to indicate the presence of flying saucers next to space
capsules. However, his announcements were barely noticed by the
general public. It was a little different when James Lovell
on board the Apollo 8 command module came out from behind the
moon and said for everybody to hear: 'PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT
THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.' Even though this happened on
Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a hidden meaning in those
words."

Rumors persist. NASA may well be a civilian agency, but
many of its programs are funded by the defence budget and most
of the astronauts are subject to military security regulations.
Apart from the fact that the National Security Agency screens
all films and probably radio communications as well. We have the
statements by Otto Binder, Dr. Garry Henderson and Maurice
Chatelain that the astronauts were under strict orders not to
discuss their sightings. And Gordon Cooper has testified to a
United Nations committee that one of the astronauts actually
witnessed a UFO on the ground. If there is no secrecy, why has
this sighting not been made public?

A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was
engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA
symposium.
Professor: What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?

Armstrong: It was incredible, of course we had always
known there was a possibility, the fact is,
we were warned off!(by the Aliens). There was
never any question then of a space station or a
moon city.

Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?

Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that
their ships were far superior to ours both in
size and technology - Boy, were they
big!...and menacing!
No, there is no question of a space station.
Professor: But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?

Armstrong: Naturally - NASA was committed at that time,
and couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really
was a quick scoop and back again.

Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to
go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind
the cover-up.





healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 20, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
Oh stop yourself, I was involved with every one of those intelligence orgs as a consumer preparing senior USPACFLT staff briefings. I was also very familiar with the NRO as a naval photographer peripherally involved with mission work on images from satellites, U2s, and conventional recon missions. I have a pretty good feel for their various capabilities and proclivities and your whole speil is nothing short of a extrapolation and deification of government to provide yourself with powerful anthropomorhians that explain why you feel so frail and helpless.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
Many, many former Astronauts, Military, NASA employees, Politicians, Scientists, and now Countries/Nations are disclosing the truth of UFOs/Alien presence so why do all you naysayers/debunkers have your heads so far buried into the sand?

Why?


Disclosure has happened and you are caught asleep, and in total denial.


"Denial" as they say is a very, very long river . . .


Sad.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 20, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
Klimmer, there are no Nephilim, there are no moonbases. I have no doubt there are aliens, but the odds of any communicating in any form with each other or with us are so Infinitesimally small as to be non-existent let alone any of them physically 'visiting' us.

Why do you so desperately need all these anthropomorphians?
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 20, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
Many, many former Astronauts, Military, NASA employees, Politicians, Scientists, and now Countries/Nations are disclosing the truth of UFOs/Alien presence so why do all you naysayers/debunkers have your heads so far buried into the sand?

Because they have absolutely no evidence to show us and expect us to rely on nothing other than their word. Without a testable theory, there is no science to be done, only speculation. Speculation resolves nothing and doesn't bring any new information to light.

In other words, people telling me that there are aliens from outer space only proves to me that there are people telling me that there are aliens from outer space. It does not prove to me that there are actual aliens from outer space.

Considering the billions of people that have not seen aliens from outer space and the small number who say they have seen them, I'd go with the statistics and say that I have a greater chance of winning a $100m lottery twice than I do of seeing a real alien spacecraft in my lifetime. So why should I care even if it is real?

Dave
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 20, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 20, 2010 - 10:10pm PT
Aliens, Sasquatch, and Nessie - why they're everywhere! Yet no one seems to be able to produce a single one. UFOs? They're in the sky almost every day and night! Yet not a single one has ever landed in a public place and said hello.
dirtbag

climber
May 20, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
LOL, skip.

But WHY, WHY are you so wrong on everything?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
May 21, 2010 - 01:13am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7vwZJgJ0Bc&feature=related
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
Another peaceful moment of reflectance between the raging storms and gusts of ignorance in regards to the reality of UFOs/Aliens . . . and the truth that they're already here.


David Bowie: Space Oddity


David Bowie- Space Oddity Original Video (1969)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67kmFzSh_o


David Bowie's "Space Oddity"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhSYbRiYwTY



I like the second well known version better. Classic.




Far above the Moon . . . Planet SuperTaco is Blue, and there's nothing I can do . . .

May GOD's love be with You . . .
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 21, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
"Insanity is a twisted road. Pathetic."

Word.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 21, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Some more tranquility before the next storm . . .


David Bowie - Is there Life On Mars?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueUOTImKp0k


David Bowie is proof positive that Aliens are among us. Lol.












(I'm just joking about DB. He is a brilliant and talented musician.)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
Pate,

Do you not just like good music?

I didn't post those music videos to support anything other than the topic of the music -- space related and just pure good music, allegories aside.

It is nice to still the waters of debate occasionally.


It is no surprise to anyone who has a clue regarding David Bowie's sexuality choice(s). But I hadn't heard Major Tom was his coming out of the closet debue. The song debued during the Apollo Missions period of time. News to me. Even if true, all allegories have multiple meanings. I'll choose to hear it relevant to space travel.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
May 21, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
Sorry Pate, have to disagree with you on this one. The song's about his heroin addiction, followed by "Major Tom Coming Home" describing his going straight, like all the other rockers in the 80s.

Edit: Oops, meant "Ashes to Ashes"
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 11:02pm PT
Skept,

Have to agree with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Oddity_(album);


Also, Stanley Kubrick's classic film was an influence, Space Odyssey 2001 . . .

In a 2003 interview with Performing Songwriter magazine, Bowie explained: "In England, it was always presumed that it was written about the space landing, because it kind of came to prominence around the same time. But it actually wasn't. It was written because of going to see the film 2001, which I found amazing. I was out of my gourd anyway, I was very stoned when I went to see it, several times, and it was really a revelation to me. It got the song flowing. It was picked up by the British television, and used as the background music for the landing itself. I'm sure they really weren't listening to the lyric at all (laughs). It wasn't a pleasant thing to juxtapose against a moon landing. Of course, I was overjoyed that they did. Obviously, some BBC official said, 'Oh, right then, that space song, Major Tom, blah blah blah, that'll be great.' 'Um, but he gets stranded in space, sir.' Nobody had the heart to tell the producer that."

http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=1201
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
Pate,

Honest question.

Why the constant infatuation, or lust for Nuns?




edit:


For Pate. Because I had a "c" in the word. My bad.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
Dr. F,

Yes, many were hoping that President Obama would be the brave one to do so. I also shared my doubt that it would really happen.

The US Government would be confessing to covering it up for 60 + years to do so. That isn't going to sit too well with the American public or the World. And that would open Pandora's Box. But Pandora's Box is opening elsewhere, anyway, but not here. So our hand will more than likely be forced. Good, I say. The World has much to complain about with regards to how the US of A has been acting.

But other Countries are doing so -- disclosing. Being honest and truthful is liberating. The US Government has a lot to learn about honesty. But when you are bent on Power, Control, Corruption, Greed, and Imperialism, it is a little hard to see straight.

We have a long way to go.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 12:31am PT
From another ST thread on Evolution but just as relevant here . . .


Can you not all agree, IF Aliens have been visiting Earth, and visiting for a very long time throughout our existance and perhaps prior to our existance, then Evolution as we understand it (our nice neat little package of Darwinian Evolution) then would be subject to a massive overhaul?

I'll have to post the Brookings Report Study statement regarding the possible discovery of intelligent life that was published in News Papers here in the USA, and what such a discovery would mean to mankind. Then you will understand the reluctance to say what we have discovered, if we have indeed discovered intelligent life off Earth.

I'll get back later . . .


On another thread (this one), hint-hint, there are plenty of links, articles, videos posted showing that we are and have been visited by intelligent life.

Well, known Astronauts have said so.

Well, known politicians have come out and said they have seen UFOs.

Well respected military personel and scientists (over 400 in The Disclosure Project) have come out and said that yes it is a real phenomenon, and we have and are being visited by Aliens.

Many countries are now disclosing their UFO files and opening official websites for individuals to search.

Several really well known scientists are now openly discussing the concept, Steven Hawkings, and the late Carl Sagan disclosed he knew that UFOs/Aliens are a real phenomenon, but would not publically state his beliefs for fear of losing funding.

Insiders are coming out who have indeed worked at the infamous Area 51 and have disclosed that we have made contct with aliens, we study them, and we have back engineered some of their technology.

Some retired NASA employees are coming out and stating openly what they know and have done. Several have come out and openly stated they were involved and knew those involved in erasing evidence of UFO/Alien/ET presence from Lunar images.

People around the World are seeing incredible phenomenon that they have never seen before, reporting it, and the incidence of such reporting is increasing, and they characterise these sightings as UFOs/Alien/ETs and intelligent.

The idea of UFOs/Aliens are constantly in our different forms of media as entertainment, and openly debated on many TV shows now.

Many TV shows are now devoted to the topic in a serious way such as UFO Hunters and Ancient Aliens on the History Channel as well as many more programs.

The evidence is piling up, disclosure has happened and is happening.

If UFOS/Aliens are a real phenomenon, then the reality that they have been here all along is also very real and ever present. Just watch the program Ancient Aliens or read books on said topic.

The fact that our government does not want to talk about it and goes out of their way to avoid having to talk about it, is very real.

Case in point, the Brookings Institute Report, and the perceived need to hush-up the UFO/Alien phenomenon for fear that our civilization as we know it would radically change and come to an end. I think this is a massive false and fraudulent arguement. Fraudulently keeping it secret is a matter of protecting one's immoral lust of greed and power, and hanging onto that immoral greed and power no matter what.

The UFO/Alien phenomenon will challenge our perceptions of what we know in science (including Evolution) and what we believe in religion, and our Society as a whole, no doubt. But the truth is paramount and the only way to go. Anything else is an illusion and fraud.

Those of strong faith who believe in GOD and Jesus, will not be surprised by all of this, since the Good Book discusses this period of time and what to expect, and it does so in detail.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Ask yourself, why is our US Government so bent on extraditing Gary McKinnon from the UK?

http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/janis_sharp/janis_sharp.html

Project Camelot: An interview with Janis Sharp: Free Gary McKinnon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUtNq0-NYVo&feature=player_embedded

On my recent trip to London I was fortunate to get the chance to meet Janis Sharp, Gary McKinnon's mother, a powerhouse who has been very actively working to stop the extradition of her son to the U.S. She has been surprisingly successful in generating a grass roots movement of support that includes such luminaries as Sting, Bob Geldof and Chrissie Hynde. As many people know, Gary McKinnon is also an accomplished and talented musician. Through Janis's efforts a new renditon of the well known protest song "Chicago" by Graham Nash has been released and is available on the Free Gary website for download.

A short summary of the case from the Free Gary website:

"...seven years since his initial arrest !). Gary was indicted by a US court in November 2002, accused of "hacking" into over 90 US Military computer systems from here in the UK. The unjust treatment of British citizens (and others) when facing the might of the US Military "justice" system, which practices detention without trial in Guantanamo Bay and elsewhere, and stands accused of making use of torture by allied regimes ("extraordinary rendition") is an ongoing scandal. It cannot be excused even by a "war on terror". It seems only just that Gary should face any charges in a British court, and to serve any sentence, if he is found guilty, in a British prison.

While it is obviously crucial that Gary not be extradited, as many will know who have followed Project Camelot since the beginning, I interviewed Gary back in 2006. I encourage you to watch the original interview with Gary "Hacking the Pentagon" which really shows his personality and brings forward what he found using a dial-up modem several years ago; records within NASA and the Pentagon that detailed non-terrestrial officers, fleet-to-fleet off- world transfers... in essence evidence of the existence of the secret space program and the true advances in technology and space travel code name: Solar Warden.

Kerry Lynn Cassidy

May 2010


Original Interview with Gary:
http://projectcamelot.org/gary_mckinnon.html

http://freegary.org.uk/



Gary "Hacking the Pentagon" which really shows his personality and brings forward what he found using a dial-up modem several years ago; records within NASA and the Pentagon that detailed non-terrestrial officers, fleet-to-fleet off- world transfers... in essence evidence of the existence of the secret space program and the true advances in technology and space travel code name: Solar Warden.


That is why the US Government, the Pentagon, the Secret Shadow Government wants to extradite Gary. That is the only reason. All the rest is unbelievably low level hacking and made up damage charges by the US.

The ACLU has come out in support of Gary McKinnon.

ACLU Calls Pentagon Hacker’s Extradition ‘Tragic’
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/08/aclu-mckinnon/

American Civil Liberties Union attacks David Miliband over UK/US extradition treaty
A US civil liberties group backed by a host of Hollywood celebrities has attacked the controversial extradition treaty which could see British computer hacker Gary McKinnon shipped to the United States on computer hacking charges.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/6099715/American-Civil-Liberties-Union-attacks-David-Miliband-over-UKUS-extradition-treaty.html


Chicago/We Can Change The World (Gary Mckinnon Support Video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LQKnJDh1Bk
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 22, 2010 - 04:49am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
Wow, hadn't seen these articles before . . .


Part 3: Star Trek vs Solar Warden – the real Starfleet
May 8, 6:10 AMHonolulu Exopolitics Examiner Michael Salla, Ph.D

http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m5d8-Star-Trek-vs-Solar-Warden--the-real-Starfleet


Other related articles:

Part 2: NASA decline and antigravity space fleetPart
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m5d6-NASA-decline-related-to-antigravity-space-fleet


Part 1: Reagan records & Space Command antigravity fleet
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m4d15-Reagan-records--Space-Commands-secret-antigravity-fleet



How the U.S. Government Suppressed the World’s First Civilian Spacecraft Industry
http://exopoliticsjournal.com/vol-2/vol-2-1-Salla.pdf


Reagan’s extraterrestrial fixation – will records reveal UFO briefing?
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m4d12-Was-President-Reagan-briefed-about-extraterrestrial-life


Artistic Recreation of Extraterrestrial Visiting Space Shuttle released by former Space Craft Operator
http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-77.htm

Growing Media Interest in UFOs - Is Partial Official Disclosure of UFOs as Classified Antigravity Vehicles Inevitable?
http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-64.htm

UFOs and Obama Memorandum on Scientific Integrity
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m3d11-UFOs-and-Obama-Memorandum-on-Scientific-Integrity?cid=exrss-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
http://www.dojopsi.info/forum/index.php?topic=1876.0


Former Head Of Lockheed confirms ET craft exists

The Late Ben R Rich

CEO Ben Rich, the hand-picked successor of Skunk Works founder Kelly
Johnson and the man famous for the F-117 Nighthawk "Stealth" fighter, its
half-pint prototype the HAVE BLUE, and the top secret F-19 Stealth
Interceptor. Before Rich died of cancer, Andrews took my questions to him. Rich confirmed:

1. There are two types of UFOs -- the ones we build, and ones THEY build. We learned from both crash retrievals and actual "Hand-me-downs." The Government knew, and until 1969 took an active hand in the administration of that information. After a 1969 Nixon "Purge", Administration was handled by international board of directors in the private sector.

2. "'An' item" -- as opposed to "'The' item" -- was recovered near the
world's only combat operational atom bomb base (Roswell AAF) in 1947. Hull design, aerodynamic measurements and propulsion info was passed directly to Jack Northrop and Kelly Johnson, beginning in 1950, with a major block of data being passed on from "The Working Group" at Wright Patterson AFB's Foreign Technologies Division in 1952. "'The' item" refers to the top secret
designation of Kelly's original variant of the U-2 (TR-1) spy plane in
Congressional and Pentagon budgets in the 1950s.

3. Nearly all "Biomorphic" aerospace designs were inspired by the Roswell
spacecraft, from Kelly's SR-71 Blackbird onward to today's drones, UCAVs, and
aerospace craft.

On March 23, 1993, at an engineering conference in Los Angeles, Dr. Ben R. Rich stated to the future Section Director of the Mutual UFO Network of Orange County, California, engineer Jan Harzan, that we already had in our possession the technology to take us to the stars, saying that “we now have the technology to take ET home”. This was in a conference room full of aerospace and computer engineers from many different aerospace and software companies.

The late Ben R. Rich, a UCLA School of Engineering alumnus who is known as the “Father of Stealth”, is recognized as one of the best aircraft engineers in the world and led development of the heralded F-117 stealth fighter.

see also :
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2003/dec/m09-012.shtml

Josh,

I will answer for him as I have that data. Jan Harzan is the
Director of MUFON O.C. and it is he who heard the statements.

Well, it just so happens that Jan was the source of the rumor
that Ben Rich made statements in a presentation he gave to the
group of engineers which happened to be members of a UCLA Alumni
association who were invited to hear this presentation by Ben
Rich on March 23, 1993.

The late Ben R. Rich, a UCLA School of Engineering alumnus (MS
'50) who is known as the "Father of Stealth," is recognized as
one of the best aircraft engineers in the world and led
development of the heralded F-117 stealth fighter.

Knowing Jan, I called him to clarify what Ben said at this
presentation to UCLA engineering alumni. I work at UCLA and am
only steps away from the engineering building.

Here is what Jan, a Senior Project Executive with Boeing told me
about Ben's presentation:

 Ben showed slides and went through the history of the Skunk
Works. Showed pics of U2 and SR-71 and drones that no one had
seen before.

 The kicker was the last slide. It showed a black disk headed
for space. Ben showed this and made the statement, "We now have
the technology to take ET home". He made this statement in 1993,
but did not say how long we have had this tech.

There was a Q&A after the lecture. In this Q&A, he told the
engineers that it was now possible to travel to the stars. There
was an error in the equations which was corrected. The time of
travel is fast, but he didn't say how fast.

Ben said he believed that security was too oppressive and that
the time had come to develop this technology in the commercial
world now that the cold war has ended. Months later he died of
cancer.

Jan is going to consult with his friend Tom who was also present
and do an article on this in a future MUFON Journal.


 Bill Hamilton


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
This is a really good article and a major eye-opener . . .

Part 1: Reagan records & Space Command antigravity fleet
http://www.examiner.com/x-2383-Honolulu-Exopolitics-Examiner~y2009m4d15-Reagan-records--Space-Commands-secret-antigravity-fleet

On April 13, the National Archive Records Administration made available almost 250,000 pages of documents from President Reagan's administration.



President Reagan's Diary. The entry for Tuesday, June 11, 1985 (page 334) reads:

Lunch with 5 top space scientist. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier and some of the developments there in astronomy etc. are like science fiction, except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such that we could orbit 300 people.


Wow! Paydirt! Reagan admits that we had the shuttle capacity to orbit 300 people! Truly incredible. Ronald Ray-Gun right there admits we have a Secret Astronaut Corp and Secret Space Program, right there in his diary. Because, we certainly didn't have that capability known publically. Truly, truly amazing.


This is curious since the Space Shuttle holds a maximum of eight people and only five were built for space flight. Even if all five took off fully loaded it would be impossible to place and maintain 300 astronauts in orbit. Was Reagan revealing the existence of a highly classified space program that could accommodate hundreds of astronauts in orbit? Apparently so according to dozens of military and corporate whistleblowers. Hidden within one of the ten unified combatant commands of the U.S. military, Strategic Command, is a highly classified fleet of aircraft carrier sized antigravity vehicles that operate in outer space.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
Rokjox,


Post up what you got. When I go to the official LRO site their image catalog is sooo limited. The closest I have seen is the floor of the Tsiolkovskiy Crater . . .

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/multimedia/lroimages/201000430_tsiol.html

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/450798main_tsiol_1_lg.jpg

Nice bouldering field by the way ;-)



I have contact information for the LRO team, I'm thinking of giving them a call. I have specific questions for them. Before a FOIA request can be made you have to go through the normal channels and see if the product is already available. I kinda doubt that it is.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
May 23, 2010 - 02:35am PT
I think people tend underestimate the ingenuity of man when it comes to structures like stonehenge or the pyramids.

It would seem many would rather look to an "outside" answer rather than a logical, if not perhaps a simple answer to:

"gee how, was stonehenge or the pyramids built?"

I still believe that man built the pyramids and stonehenge with sticks and stones with some brainpower behind it:


Check out Wally Wallington:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK1Rzch89Dw


Plausible? I would think so.

I think as humans we tend to forget how to use / know about techniques or skills that our forefathers used eg:

eg. brake biner rappels, etc.

As time goes by we have newer technologies, innovations or techniques that tend to replace/overshadow yesteryears.

I wouldn't be surpised that we have forgotten alot of old techniques, tricks or skills that were once used on daily basis in construction, art, ninja knitting skills, etc

What's the saying?

"Don't use it, you lose it"



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 23, 2010 - 08:47am PT
Klimmer, do you have any understanding of either [generalized] ion drives (the "Biefeld-Brown" effect) or of scramjets? The idea that they'd be used together in a single vehicle is pretty ridiculous given the requirements of a) weight of the power supply [for the electorstatic antigravity] and b) the inability to transition from one drive system to the other (extra credit for rokjox for explaining the problem with transitioning the methods of propulsion).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
At this very moment we are now using an "Out of this World" (NASA's words) Zenon Ion-Propulsion Engine for the NASA Mission "Dawn."

It generates the force of about the weight (W=mg) of a piece of paper, but in the vacuum of space and in the micro-gravity or zero-g environment of space, and left on continiously for long periods of time, it can generate enourmous speeds. It will generate a constant acceleration that will enable it to achieve the greatest speeds of any publically "known" spacecraft/probe we have sent to space so far.

"Dawn" is on its way to investigate/image/map Asteroid 4 Vesta and (Dwarf Planet) Asteroid Ceres. It is on it's way now.

Great film with Leonard Nimoy narrating and it gets into this technology . . .

Dawn Mission Video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5412000236766165719&hl=en#



There have been many insiders that have come out to say we are indeed doing it, and that we have back-engineered Alien technology. I'm inclined to believe them. They risk a great deal to do so, namely their lives. Some have said, we possess the technology now to take ET home.

I don't doubt it.

Do I understand the physics of it? No. Would I like too? Of course. Who wouldn't? However, if I did, then I would be fabulously rich and famous, and at the top of the Shadow Government's "Poop-list," because Zero-point Energy, Anti-gravity etc., these technologies can revolutionize the World and bring about clean, limitless, renewable, and affordable energy that the World so desperately needs. I would make sure that the World would get it.

Those who have this technology are hording it for their own selfish and dark intentions of power and greed. That isn't right.

There are many who have come out and said these technologies exist, some people are trying to get to these technologies to help mankind.

This is what the Orion Project is all about:
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/index.html

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/video_intro.html
Introduction: An overview of the project (7:57)
The Scientists: A discussion of the Scientists in the Orion Project network
(5:10)
The Transition: A discussion of issues surrounding the transition to a clean energy society (4:39)
The Suppression: A discussion of the suppression of clean energy technologies historically (7:22)








http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biefeld%E2%80%93Brown_effect

http://www.disclosureproject.org/


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
What do you guys not get?

At the 7 min. mark in the NASA video on Dawn it gives the acceleration rate.

a = 60mph/4 days = 15mph/1 day

So plug and chug gentleman,

v = at

In the video they say let's say it thrusts for "4000 days" at that acceleration rate . . .

Q: What would be the instantaneous speed of the "Dawn" spacecraft wise-guys?

v = (15mph/1 day) (4000 days)

v = 60,000 mph

or to put it another way, you could go to the Moon in 4 hours!


Yes, it says it would be the fastest spacecraft we have flown. I would add that we have "officially" flown.



Klimmer - do you think it would help you think about these things to learn at least a bit of high school-level physics? Or do you think that is unnecessary?


Mike B,

Take a physics class please.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
Yes, and apparently that Zenon Ion-propulsion engine (which is really on the small size) can thrust for a very, very long time if it wants to, or not. Pretty neat technology, and we can do that right now.

What do you think we can do in the secret back room of the Black-Op World?

Like "they" say, we can now take ET home. I do not doubt it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2010 - 11:59pm PT
Another way of looking at the speed of the NASA Mission Dawn . . .

If Dawn had accelerated up to a speed of 60,000mph it could go from Earth to Mars 36,000,000 miles away (at the closest position = opposition) in only 600 hours = 25 days. Wow!

But again, that must be snail speed to such technology as "Aurora" or to TR-3B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_(aircraft);
http://www.tr-3b.com/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Well, one of the nice thing about physics is they apply the same in everyone's room here on Earth. There are no 'back' or 'black' or any other kinds of government rooms where physics works differently than in my office here.

And there's a reason ion drives are used for nano thruster and and long-range space mission applications - they are highly efficient, even if they produce very low thrust. They are so low thrust in fact that no ion drive has or will ever be able to lift it's own power supply off the ground unless someone comes up with a high energy power supply that weighs nothing.

That's what makes things like the 'TR-3B' and 'nuclear powered anti-gravity fleets' utterly perposterous - ion drives can't produce enough thrust to lift nuclear material off the ground, let alone a shielded reactor. And the way ion drive lift demonstrators work - aside from being tethered to their power supply sitting on the floor - is by producing a downward flow of ions which interact or 'push against' air.

And that 'push against' the air is the second problem with the 'TR-3B'; air gets thinner as you go up so there's less to push against. I.e. even if one could lift its own power supply it would be a low altitude craft at best. Which leads to the third problem for the very idea of an ion / scramjet hybrid; scramjets are designed to work at very high, rarified altitudes and at very, very high speeds where they can compress and combust that rarefied air. So that third problem is that even if your ion drive could 'levitate' a craft to high altitudes, which it can't, you'd still need a very high thrust propulsion system to get you to the extreme mach speed threshold where you could initiate ramjet combustion.

So wrapping it up, your 'TR-3B' would have to have three - count'em three - propulsion systems just to fly within our atmosphere - one to lift it to high altitude, one to get it up to ramjet combustion speeds, and a scramjet to operate at high mach speeds. And of course you'd need a fourth propulsion system if you wanted to operate at suborbital or orbital heights above the planet surface.

All ridiculous - particularly the idea of an essentially safe, nearly weightless supply of almost infinite and inexhaustible power to run it. Ed would be a better one to address it, but the last time I checked there is no place in the observable universe where energy is 'free' and that's what you guys keep talking about.

There are no doubt hyper-competent, black op guberment climbers putting up 5.18s in the Valley too. I mean Klimmer, is there any point at which common sense, let alone rational thought, ever reaches the same status as belief in your life and world? Seems to me in the looping triad of 'thinking-feeling-believing' you're really giving short shrift to the 'thinking' leg of the equation.

P.S. Here's humanity's state-of-the-art in hypersonic propulsion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-51

and

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2010/02/28/australians-lead-international-consortium-mach-8-scramjet/

And these essentially just engine tests that are simply trying to show (according to the USAF) that a scramjet "achieving hypersonic thrust isn't just luck". They don't involve what it would take to develop an airframe and leading edges which could withstand the heat involved, and they definitely involve zero manuvering capability which we haven't even gotten to.

P.P.S. Oh and there is no such thing as a "Magnetic Field Disruptor" - punch that in google and let me know if you can find a single, peer-reviewed paper on MFD science among the first 20 circle jerk pages of conspiracy links.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 02:41am PT
HJ,

Do I have to re-post all the posts from NASA Astronauts, US Military enlisted and Officers, Scientists, Politicians, and all the eye-witness accounts etc., and foreign government disclosed records of the UFO/Alien phenomenon that all say differently?

They say UFOs/Aliens do exist, and that we have back engineered some of their technology and "We now have the technology to take ET home."

You are purporting to know more than these very individuals who know exactly what they are talking about, since they have seen it, touched it, worked on it, and have been debriefed on it, and now they are disclosing it. And they are doing so even though they face possible harm in so many different ways.

You are purporting to know that this technology can't exist because it does not fit into your very poor and limited understanding of Physics.

What ever they show and admit publically, they are at least 50 years ahead secretly. I haven't said that, many who are disclosing and know are saying that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 02:55am PT
Do you ever think for yourself, or is your entire life built around believing what other people have 'said' or supposedly have said?

Pretty simple, verifiable statements in my last post, they shouldn't be difficult concepts for a highschool teacher to check and understand. Again, show me a single link to a peer-reviewed paper on MFD technology - just one. Or to any peer-reviewed paper that validates any 'anti-gravity' mechanism.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 09:33am PT
HJ,

Yea, that is how the Black-Op World works (hint sarcasm ahead), they publish their findings, discoveries, and newly discovered technologies that they exploit, in Scientific peer reviewed journals for the World to see.

Yea, that is how they maintian secrecy and maintian a 50 + year leap with technology over the rest of the World.

C'mon, even the things we now know about that are in the public domain that were developed at Area 51, Groom Lake, such as the SR-71 etc. they had the technological ability to do it long before it became public knowledge. There are many cases of this. Many.

Do you think they have stopped? Perhaps they now give Open House Tours of Area 51, Groom Lake, and Papoose Lake facilities, Skunk Works etc. I bet they even raise money now by doing bake sells to do all of these Black-Op projects.

Let me know when the next Open House to all these secret facilities takes place, I would like to go. I'm pretty good at looking around the corner, asking questions, and pulling the cover sheets off of things.

I can just see it now, "Now how come we can't go in that building over there and look completely through it? I thought this was a full disclosure Open House. Man, I want my bus fare given back . . . this tour sucks eggs. You guys said we could go anywhere we wanted . . . (lol). Now we can only go in certain buildings, and then only with an escort? C'mon man! Where are the Alien Spacecrafts and EBE bodies? C'mon give it up. Oh, and I'd like to see Aurora and the TR-3B while we are at it."


As the Tour Guides nervously look at each other, and then say to the Tour "Sorry, that stuff doesn't exist."

From the back of the crowd, "You wouldn't lie to us now would you?"

No response from the Area 51, Groom Lake, and Papoose Facility Tour Guides. Tour Guide: "How about these bake sale cookies and brownies? Pretty good huh? Let's keep moving along people, nothing to see here."

Tour Guide thinks to himself, . . . Man, damn Teachers always asking too many questions.


(Lol)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 09:42am PT
HFCS and Pate,

Post up your real names.
Post up what cities you live in.
Post up your jobs and employment locations.
Post up your professional licenses and credentials.

If religious bigots and science ignorant people like you can not do so, then I will use your own special phrase against you both . . .

"You are weak sauce."



HFCS I doubt seriously you could last a day in a HS classroom. You would offend someone just by being you, you're offensive personality would come screaming through, and you would be fired. That, or you would offend a student's personal faith and be immediatley canned, along with a lawsuit from the ACLU following.

Pate your taste of profanity and porn that you continually post, you couldn't even get a teaching credential. You couldn't even make it through the door. In fact, they would probably start an investigation on you knowing all the profanity and soft-porn you continually post here.

So how about it guys? Post-up the information I requested or go away. ST would be the better, either way. I'm sure many here on ST would like to know who could be so vile on ST, yet they can't ever post their real names or any personal data.

Someone knows who you are. Maybe if you won't, they will. It would only be fair don't you think?
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Good question?!?!?!?!?
May 24, 2010 - 10:31am PT
Me thinks Klimmer is getting extra credit marks for keeping this insanity alive.
WBraun

climber
May 24, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
Modern space travel now-a-days is the equivalent of cave men.

In the real old days yogis traveled through out the material universes without mechanical means.

Cave men and their peer reviews are just that,

Cave men puffed up and proud of their stone tools ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
Mike Bolte said . . .

Klimmer - why have you ignored Helios 2? It used space-time distortions to reach speeds of 150,000 mph. I could post dozens of links about it. How come you are not talking about that? Even little Voyager 1 used the same space-time distortions to accelerate to nearly 40,000 mph (homework for the reader - 40,000 mph with respect to what?). You are completely silent on this even though the Government and the NASA/DOD partnership have disclosed it publicly. What is up with that?

Surely there is no way those plodding government engineers and scientists could have perfected space-time distortion drive (STDD) without having picked up the blueprints at the base on the other side of the moon.


You may be absolutely right Mike, I do not know about the 2 projects that you mention and their relative speeds that are already in the public domain. Never, claimed to know it all. Far from it. I learn everday.

However, the NASA Dawn video did make the claim it would be the fastest, I didn't make the claim. Perhaps they are wrong? I just took them at their word.

I would be interested in reading articles relating to the 2 projects you name and their respective relative speeds.

HJ,

What is sooo special about the Zenon Ion-propulsion engine are the facts that follow:

low mass engine, low mass fuel tank holding Zenon but which is plenty of fuel for the Ion-propulsion engine for very long duration, and continous very, very efficient thrusts, via Newton's 3rd and 2nd laws working in harmony. Newton's 3rd Law: Action and Reaction, and Newton's 2nd Law: a=F/m clearly explains the acceleration motion of Dawn (or any spaceship in the vacuum of space), with ionized Zenon flying out the back at enormous accelerations, yet the Dawn spacecraft accelerating forward at about 15mph/day. Same force acting on 2 very different masses, results in 2 very different accelerations: ionized-zenon with very high constant and continious acceleration out the back, and the Dawn spacecraft at very low constant and continious accelerations moving forward.

Shut it off and the spacecraft moves through space all via Newton's 1st Law: Inertia.

(Why do I teach during my duty free prep? Why?)


Edit:

By the way, the above description simply using Newton's 3 Laws of Motion only applies to conventional thrust spacecraft (however means we do it). It would not apply to any spacecraft that purports anti-gravity technology or something similiar that more than likely then would also distort Space-Time. What can distort Space-Time? Gravity.

Now how do they do this? I don't know. That is the crux. However, the evidence seems to suggest that "they" have, and we have also done so now by back-engineering "their" technology.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
I'll take that as a "no, I can't think for myself". Nothing in my post was all that difficult to deal with, but you obviously prefer links to thinking for yourself. Somewhat amazing and it wouldn't seem like a mindset or mental orientation that would lend itself well to the sharp end of a rope.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 24, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
Bump to a 1000!!!!!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 02:40pm PT
Staying alive on the sharp end of a rope requires a mindset of independent thinking that I haven't seen much in evidence in Klimmer's approach to all these various topics. You on the other hand, do appear to try to actually sort some of this stuff out for yourself even if you do it with a fairly optimistic bias relative to the 'possibilities'.

I'm generally fairly pragmatic and find human accomplishment stellar and miraculous all by itself - no gods, aliens, or reincarnates required thank you. Klimmer's whole spew on every topic is that 'someone else' - some more 'intelligent', higher-order entity and authority - is the only reason humans get by. I personally find that insulting to the efforts of the brilliant men and women who toil every day to provide us with the knowledge and understanding we currently possess.

It's all religious belief with a scifi wrapping that obviously renders him incapable of reasoning in any basic way about the very topics he raises. Ion drives, scramjets, etc., all just words apparently devoid any tangible meaning that can be reasoned about. I mean, for example, doesn't the very idea of a scramjet seem more than a little bit desperate and arcane if you did in fact have a lightweight, inexhaustible power source? Wouldn't you just scrap the whole crude, rube goldberg scramjet concept pretty much immediately?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 24, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
#995 close enough, just five short

For God’s sake: Hail! Mary full of grace, help me find a parking place.

Klimmer you wrote:

“Do I understand the physics of it? No. Would I like too? Of course. Who wouldn't? However, if I did, then I would be fabulously rich and famous, and at the top of the Shadow Government's "Poop-list," because Zero-point Energy, Anti-gravity etc., these technologies can revolutionize the World and bring about clean, limitless, renewable, and affordable energy that the World so desperately needs. I would make sure that the World would get it.

Those who have this technology are hording it for their own selfish and dark intentions of power and greed. That isn't right.

There are many who have come out and said these technologies exist, some people are trying to get to these technologies to help mankind.”


https://lasers.llnl.gov/

It has it’s controversies but hey! What doesn’t?

Upper right hand corner LIFE

They have tours but don’t apply for a job; you need something a little higher than a high school education to qualify.

Also comment on what you said:

‘Tour Guide thinks to himself, . . . Man, damn Teachers always asking too many questions.”

Understand that if you go to the ”Men”s room, NIF personal drop their secret encrypted papers that look exactly the same shape and colour of paper towels in towel bin that you wash your hands with to get messages out for space alien pickup. [Similar to spook’s dead/dead letter box]

So go in, take or fake, but look like you took a pee. Then go wash your hands, take a paper towel from the dispensary, walk to the trash bin to throw towel away, make sure your back is turned facing the camera so that they will not see you stealing them. Grab 12 -15 of them. Now that you have them in your pocket, walk out, join the tour, and ask your questions ………….

When you get home take some lemon juice add water and then soak your used paper towel that you so nicely grabbed. Wait a couple seconds, image will come up. You will need a camera because it will fade, then disappear in less than10 seconds. Remember Image will be encrypted but understand that they use bible code so you should not have a problem un-encrypting it.

When you get it, post it up. Depends on when you go on the tour and getting back home. I will be looking for it around Post #7,500 or so.

Oh! By the way don’t tell anyone about above web site: NIF is a secret Government program for “Your Eyes Only”.

Klimmer: Stop searching and start learning

WBraun

climber
May 24, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
healyje -- "Staying alive on the sharp end of a rope requires a mindset of independent thinking ...."

Klimmer is still alive, so your logic is definitely skewed.

Ho man .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
Unless it doesn't really happen since he's been overwhelmed by aliens.

And what about you? You're a quasi-guberment man - why the witholding of data and info on all the 5.18s that have been getting put up in the Valley by black op and alien climbing teams.
WBraun

climber
May 24, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Oh now ... just see ...

Your guessing and speculating again.

Your mind is running amok again and you have lost control of it.

Independent thinking requires full masterful control of the mind .....
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 24, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
Funny now that I think about it. I was on a Technical subcommittee 20 years ago with ACI SP-125 Lunar Concrete, we call it by a different name now, but when ideas were being thrown around for the structures to be design/built: Bechtel, I know was there, few others and myself but remember this US Air Force dud giving his speech about some of the specifications that needed to be addressed. One of them was a secured room or section had to be made and cornered off in the case of someone in a mental condition that would be a danger to the other crew members and equipment in case someone went Looney. We all agreed.

Now I know why.


He was a teacher as well sure no connection
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
Rokjox,

That is some weird and bizarre story. I didn't know of that story before. Really strange.


Obama to Disclose X-Files on Anti-Gravity Technology?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjAVCYNdPi4

Gets into the Biefeld-Brown effect also . . .

I haven't sent in my letter, but what the heck? I doubt they will comply. They will only comply when they want to. But I will send mine in also.

White House: Oh, yea just stack it over there with all the others . . . we are gonna mulch them and turn them into compost for our WH organic garden.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
Another moment of reflection and peace, to quiet the storms of . . .

doubt, false witnesses, and debunkers (professional or amatuer alike).


Hair - Aquarius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhbxI5eVnM4

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
SHUTTLE ALIEN




Artistic Recreation of Extraterrestrial Visiting Space Shuttle released by former Space Craft Operator
http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-77.htm


Clark McClelland is a former Space Craft Operator with NASA who recently revealed that he witnessed an extraterrestrial interacting with two astronauts during a Space Shuttle mission. He has just released an artist's recreation of what he witnessed together with the following statement:

To all who have faith in ME, I present you with this artists concept of what I saw many years ago at KSC. It was a tall creature, about 8 to 9 feet tall. It had a humanoid body shape with two arms, two hands, two legs, two feet, a slim torso and a normal size head for its size. The color of its skin I could not determine. It appeared to have two what appeared to be eyes, but it was not detailed enough for any other comments.

How did it communicate? I have no idea. It did move its arms a lot. Almost like giving instructions! I heard no voice communications. The helmet was not as large as our two NASA Astronauts, and had a viewport to look forward. It had a small, perhaps a communication device, attached only to the right side of the helmet!

I saw no oxygen tank(s). It had a wide belt like wrapping around it.. It did not appear to be tethered as the two Astronauts were to the sides of the shuttle structure. I observed nothing that appeared to be a weapon. The time of this amazing scene was one minute and seven seconds, I timed it on my Astronaut chronograph watch.


As the graphic makes clear, this was not simply a third astronaut since no publicly known astronaut has been anywhere near as tall as the eight to nine foot being depicted. The size strongly suggests that the being between the two tethered astronauts was an extraterrestrial.

Significantly, the delta winged vehicle depicted behind the Space Shuttle does not correspond to any publicly known space vehicle. The left hand side of the leading edge of the mysterious delta winged vehicle appears to have an electromagnetic haze around it. This indicates some kind of antigravity propulsion system using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

According to Dr Paul La Violette, the B-2 bomber also has an electromagnetic haze around the leading edge when in flight due to the positive ions being generated by the antigravity technology to produce an ion sheath as evidenced in the photo of the B-2. This is a distinguishing feature of the Biefeld-Brown Effect which uses the principle of capacitors stored with tremendous electrostatic charges to generate an anti-gravity effect. The question that arises is whether the craft behind the Space Shuttle belongs to an extraterrestrial civilization or to secret fleet of antigravity space vehicles.

There has been much speculation about a secret Aurora space craft that allegedly uses antigravity principles. In his book, The Hunt for Zero Point, Jane's Defense Weekly analyst Nick Cook writes about the Aurora: "there has been speculation since the late 1980s about the existence of a secret replacement for the Blackbird, a mythical plane called the Aurora that supposedly flew twice as fast and on the edges of space" (p. 14). Other whistleblowers such as Edgar Fouche, a former contractor with the Department of Defense, have come forward to claim that the Blackbird's [or SR-71] replacement, the Aurora actually comprises two types of hypersonic aircraft used for space flight. He said: "The Aurora comprises the SR-75 capable of speeds above Mach 5, and acts as a mother ship for the SR-74 that can travel at speeds of Mach 18 or more into space to deliver satellites. "

The idea of a secret space fleet using advanced technologies was boosted by a British hacker, Gary McKinnon, who faces extradition to the U.S. for hacking into U.S. government and military computers . McKinnon claims that he came across secret Pentagon and NASA files that contained a list of 'non-terrestrial officers', and a spreadsheet detailing 'fleet-to-fleet transfers'. Could the tall being depicted with the two Space Shuttle astronauts actually belong to a group of "non-terrestrial officers" that periodically give assistance to Space Shuttle programs through the US Air Force's Space Command?

A possible answer to the above question may be found in an unusual award ceremony by NASA that awarded the "Johnson Spaceflight Center Group Achievement Award" to a group of USAF Space Command personnel called the "Human Spaceflight Support Team". The Space Command team was honored for giving: "exceptional support in keeping the Space Shuttle, International Space Station and its crews safe from the dangers of orbital debris, spacecraft collisions and other inherent hazards of orbit operations." . The problem is that Space Command officially only tracks space debris and other hazards and does not have the capacity to do anything more than give warning of possible collisions. However, as researcher Ted Twietmeyer points out: "It's important to note that neither the Space Station nor the Space Shuttle can ever make large orbital corrections. Only small changes or corrections are possible, and can often require more than one orbit to have a noticeable effect." So if only small course corrections can be made to avert space debris or other problems tracked by military satellites and radar, then how can the USAF Space Command give Space Shuttle missions "exceptional support" in dealing with "inherent hazards of orbit operations?" A possible answer is that the USAF Space Command has a secret fleet of antigravity vehicles, like the alleged Aurora, that can give assistance when urgently needed.

It's worth pointing out that Clark McClelland stated that the being "did move its arms a lot. Almost like giving instructions! Was tall being giving the two tethered astronauts assistance in a hazardous situation confronting the Space Shuttle mission? If the delta wing craft witnessed by McClelland was part of the USAF Space Command giving assistance, then the question still remains, does Space Command employ in its secret corps of non-terrestrial officers, eight to nine foot tall personnel? Or did McClelland indeed witness an extraterrestrial being and craft assist a Space Shuttle mission?

McClelland's 34 year service in NASA has resulted in him compiling many awards and testimonials, meetings with a long list of VIPs, scientists, celebrities and politicians concerning NASA missions, McClelland's long interest in UFOs apparently led to his abrupt termination from NASA in 1992, denial of his retirement benefits, and an ongoing legal effort to restore these. Did NASA take preemptive action to discredit McClelland by sacking him prior to his retirement, and denying him benefits since he had seen and knew too much about secret NASA operations? Clark McClelland's testimony cannot be glibly dismissed as a fiction concocted by a disgruntled former Space Craft Operator. His revelations are first hand testimony of secret NASA operations involving possible extraterrestrial life and advanced spacecraft technologies that have yet to be disclosed to the American public.




Michael E. Salla, Ph.D
Kona, Hawaii
08/05/08
http://www.Exopolitics.Org




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 24, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
WBraun: Your guessing and speculating again.

Oh, so now you're saying there are no people and aliens climbing 5.18? Are you saying there are no 5.18 climbs in the Valley (right...)? No BBEffect shoes? Are you saying YOSAR isn't just a guberment cover for a Shiva Team of black op stealth climbers? What color are your helicopters and ropes again? And all those night rescues? Sure they are...

P.S. Klimmer, you and your ilk give scifi a bad, underserved rep...

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 24, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
That picture of the Russian Wildman.

Hey! Isn't that Jesse Ventura just before he came pro for the World Wrestling Federation? Think it is a picture of him just when he got busted on a DUI in Malibu a few years back.

Have to check records with National Inquirer
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
Coast to Coast AM - 17 Jan 2010 - Back Engineering ET Craft part 1/7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzhW3f6NFY

Gordon Novel and his book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Novel

http://www.jerrypippin.com/UFO_Files_gordon_novel.htm

http://www.gordonnovel.com/





Interesting.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 24, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
WBraun

climber
May 24, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
Klimmer has already proved you're all nuts by keeping your leg humping to his thread going ....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 09:18am PT
No matter how you want to spin it, these people are not crazy. These people are heros and testifying to the truth of what they know. And they are in positions to know. Many are putting their lives on the line.

What are you debunkers doing (not much), are not in a position to know. It is easy to sit back anonymously and criticize behind a computer on a forum and spew ridicule, doubt, and hate. In fact, it is so easy it is mindless.



http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/home.html




More from former NASA ScO and now whistleblower, . . .

Clark C. McClelland
UFO Researcher, Aerospace Engineer, and NASA ScO, Space Shuttle Fleet
His credentials, testimonials:
http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/credentials.html
http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/testimonials.html
http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/those_who_know.html




http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/thoughts_and_recognition.html
Thoughts and Tribute
The human race is on the threshold of a new millennium, a new age. Our brave Astronauts and Cosmonauts have only just stepped into a realm that will test our intellectual capacities and technological capabilities, and hone them to the degree we must possess to survive. We can now consider ourselves a cosmic member of a very elite group of planets exploring star cultures.

The day will arrive when the governments of earth will finally admit we are not alone, that humans have come face to face with other lifeforms from the cosmos. Will we shoot first and ask questions later? Will our fears stall the inevitable encounter, and place yet another entry, another wound, upon our known dark history of terrible violence?

Was such a reaction demonstrated as we fired our SDI weapons at the unidentified ships escaping back into space during the STS-48 Space Shuttle mission in 1991? (There will be more on this astounding incident in the book.) Will the weapons of other lifeforms some day be targeted at our own human aggression and ignorance? We had better hope and pray they do not.

Space, and the infinity it has to offer, will afford us the opportunity to explore, learn, and do what we can only now imagine. Star Trek will become realty. Our future chosen leaders must have the vast hearts of cosmic statesmen, not the cold hammers of past earthly dictators. We will need more leaders like George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Susan B. Anthony, Mahatma Gandhi, Akhenaten, Martin Luther King, Confucius, and other excellent personages of human history, all part of OUR mixed races on earth who considered peace, freedom and liberty the right of every living creature. Only then shall we here on earth arrive at the true "Promised Land" which it is actually OUT THERE!. This list has many newer important names. Please read and view who they are.
Clark McClelland


Recognition
In my many years (61) as a UFO investigator, I've been able to study the various aspects of this unique field of science that may someday hold the key to the creation of the human race. Many have contributed their professional status, reputations and lives to this research, and to uncovering the truth about the greatest mystery of all time — to answering the grandest question: "Are we alone?" NO we are NOT alone. I and another witness have observed a Tall Alien Creature in the Space Shuttle with two NASA Astronauts on two separate occasions. Are we both seeing things? Of course not. The following list are some, but not all, of the pioneers that eventually will prevail.

Edgar Mitchell, NASA Astronaut/PhD., knows Aliens exist.

Story Musgrave, NASA Astronaut/MD, knows aliens exist

Dr. Wernher von Braun, German Scientist, Roswell/Apollo Lunar Program

Dr. Hermann Oberth, knew of "Other Intelligences".

Dr. Kurt Debus, German Scientist, KSC, Director. "Other Intelligences"

Dr. Walther Riedel, German Scientist and Director, C.S. I. in California

LeRoy. Gordon Cooper, NASA Astronaut, knew aliens exist

James Irwin, NASA Astronaut, Apollo 15. Moon UFOs

Mark Brown, NASA Astronaut, STS-48 mission and UFOs

Ellison Onizuka, NASA Astronaut, STS-51-L, & McClellan AFB Aliens.

General Nathan Twining, Roswell, USAAC

President Richard Nixon/Jackie Gleason, Homestead AFB aliens

Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer, Roswell. He knew aliens exist

Dr. Hubertus Strughold, German Space Medical Scientist, Roswell./KSC

Kenneth Arnold, Flying Saucer Pioneer. Gave us UFOs in 1947.

Donald E. Keyhoe, Major, USMC/Director of NICAP

Richard Hall, Author/UFO Researcher (Original NICAP staff)

Jesse Marcel, Major, USAAC

Albert Chop, UFO Pioneer Investigator/Journalist

Leonard H. Stringfield, UFO Investigator/Author

Gordon Creighton, UFO Researcher/Publisher

James McDonald, Scientist/PhD.

Phillip J. Corso, Lt. Colonel, USA

J. Allen Hynek, Scientist/PhD.

Aime Michell, Author and early UFO expert

Max Flindt, Mankind- Child of the Stars

Maurice Chatelaine, NASA and knowledge of UFOs

Reverend Barry Downing, The Bible and UFOs

Ivan T. Sanderson, Writer and UFO knowledge.

Timothy Goode, Author, UFO Investigator. UK

Colin Andrews, Crop Circle expert and UFO investigator, UK

Pat Delgado, Crop Circle expert, UFO investigator, UK

Don Berliner, Author/UFO Researcher (Original NICAP staff)

Coral and Jim Lorenzon, UFO Researchers/Authors

Bud Hopkins, Hypnotist/UFO Researcher/Author

Bill Hamilton, Military Expert/UFO Researcher/Author

Stan Gordon, UFO Researcher/Video Producer

Robert M. Collins, Author, the excellent book: "Exempt from Disclosure"

Robert (Bob) Jacobs, Lt. USAF/PhD.

Dr. Jacques Vallee, UFO Researcher/Author

Florenz J. Mansmann, Major, USAF/PhD.

John Fuller, UFO Researcher/Author

Jerome Clark, Author/UFO Researcher

Betty and Barney Hill

Jeff Challender, He shared UFO and Alien NASA knowledge with Clark

Paola Harris, Photo Journalist, and my GOOD friend

The original Staff of NICAP and all those who investigated and those who witnessed and disclosed testimony regarding the Roswell UFO incident in New Mexico, 1947.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 09:31am PT
Also disclosure in happening in many different ways. Another way is to teach the truth of the UFO/Alien phenomenon throughout history . . .


Well that is exactly what the History Channel is doing in the program:
Ancient Aliens


Pretty darn good program and very thorough. I haven't gotten to see all the programs, I'll have to purchase the DVD, but it is a real eye-opener.

If you haven't been watching it on the History Channel you should.


http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens





Anyway you slice it disclosure is happening. And then there are those sucking their thumbs and claiming it isn't and that UFOs/Aliens are not a real phenomenon.

Those who think that way. First of all stop sucking your thumbs . . .


Well, I guess you can argue that you don't exist either. But then we have to read the attempted debunking spew and ridicule everyday, don't we? You are real and so are they.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
May 25, 2010 - 10:45am PT
I see that the disclosure is happening at the cabinet level now. I am curious about why you did not link to this story along with the others you list.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
Pate,

Why do I play your game? Why? I dunno. Maybe its because I feel pitty.

The term phenomenon was used correctly and fits the definition precisely. UFOs and Aliens are observable phenomenon and always have been. And guess what? If they were not, then we wouldn't have seen them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenon

A phenomenon (from Greek φαινόμενoν, pl. φαινόμενα - phenomena) is any observable occurrence.[1] In popular usage, a phenomenon often refers to an extraordinary event. In scientific usage, a phenomenon is any event that is observable, however commonplace it might be, even if it requires the use of instrumentation to observe it. For example, in physics, a phenomenon may be a feature of matter, energy, or spacetime, such as Isaac Newton's observations of the moon's orbit and of gravity, or Galileo Galilei's observations of the motion of a pendulum.[2]

1. New Oxford American Dictionary (2nd ed.)
2. Jeremy Bernstein, A Theory for Everything, Copernicus, An imprint of Springer-Verlag, New York, 1996, hardback, ISBN 0-387-94700-0


Yes, Astronauts, Military personnel and Officers, Scientists, Politicians, and even regular Citizens do indeed observe UFOs/Aliens, and not just with the human eye only (visible light), but with video (visible light), RADAR (radio), and other frequencies of the EM spectrum using remote sensing have captured them for all to see.

Man has been observing UFOs/Aliens it turns out throughout our complex (not perfectly understood) and long history.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 25, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
This just in for the more prosaic:

Secret X-37B Space Plane Spotted by Amateur Skywatchers

While the U.S. Air Force is mum about the orbital whereabouts of its X-37B mini-space plane, a dedicated band of amateur skywatchers has got its cross-hairs on the spacecraft.


The unpiloted X-37B Orbital Test Vehicle 1 was lofted on April 22 atop an Atlas launcher. It is being flown under the auspices of the U.S. Air Force Rapid Capabilities Office.


In U.S. military tracking parlance, when the space plane reached orbit it became identified as Catalog Number 36514, 2010-015A, OTV-1 (USA 212). [Video: X-37B space plane spotted.]


From there it entered a cone of silence regarding any on-orbit duties.


[Related: World's largest airship inflated to create monster 'stratellite']


But thanks to a worldwide eyes-on-the-sky network of amateurs, the spacecraft is reportedly in a 39.99 degrees inclination, circling the Earth in an orbit 401 kilometers by 422 kilometers. This data may change slightly as the vehicle's orbit is better refined, said Greg Roberts of Cape Town, South Africa, a pioneer in using telescopic video cameras to track spacecraft, chalking up exceptional results over the years.


The Air Force has not said what the robotic ship is for, but analysts say the X-37B is likely a spy craft and almost surely not a weapon. [X-37B spacecraft photos.]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20100524/sc_space/secretx37bspaceplanespottedbyamateurskywatchers
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
Pate,

You wasted my duty free lunch time.

I think that a few of us here on ST are really open to a great deal of ridicule because:

1) We think outside the box, (but hey if you don't then you may just miss an intrigueing insight to a new discovery or understanding), and we are not afraid to admit these new ideas and thoughts.

2) Those of us with faith who believe in a GOD, a GOD who expects us to live by and follow The Golden Rule, then those of you who constantly harass and ridicule then knowingly take advantage as a result. You know that you are not going to get it back. You see an easy target and you try to take full advantage.

It is about as difficult as taking candy from a baby. How challenging is that? It's immoral. That's what it is.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2010 - 06:41pm PT
Rokjox,

I agree. I would like to respond later when I have more time . . .


So we are left with the three possibilities.



1. Every single episode of alien contact is a delusion or misidentification of a natural phenomenon.

Millions of misidentifications made by millions of people throughout 4,000 years, or so. Professional observers, tape, video and other circumstantial, physical and episodic proof to the contrary be damned.





2. Some group body in a very technologically advanced place is consciously faking the entire thing, and doing a damn good job of doing it, as well as a damn good job of keeping the fraud silent.

Those of you who don't think that 911 could have been an inside job because no large group ("especially government") could have kept such a secret, must abandon this possibility out of hand, this is a far greater, and more long lasting and complex fraud than a three jetliner crash could/would ever be.





3. Aliens exist.

And they are following their own agendas in their rate/types of contact.







Please note that the world is being prepped for the third possibility, at a VERY rapid rate.


If the reality turns out to be possibility two, we have to ask ourselves WHY! WHAT is the final scene that is being prepped for? What can a government/military wing/arm of a government hope to gain by promoting mass delusion?



1. Every single episode of alien contact is a delusion or misidentification of a natural phenomenon.

1. Everyone is delusional who witnesses UFOs/Aliens.

Not likely. Too many people see them all at once and relate the same observations regarding the phenomenon. Too many well respected and in a position to know are also eye-witnesses.

When something is observed clearly outside our normal experiences we take notice, and those experiences are usually burned into our memories very vividly.


2. Some group body in a very technologically advanced place is consciously faking the entire thing, and doing a damn good job of doing it, as well as a damn good job of keeping the fraud silent.

Those of you who don't think that 911 could have been an inside job because no large group ("especially government") could have kept such a secret, must abandon this possibility out of hand, this is a far greater, and more long lasting and complex fraud than a three jetliner crash could/would ever be.


2. The Government, Military, or shadow government is faking the UFO/Alien phenomenon.

Not likely, but also not impossible. What would they gain by faking all these UFO/Alien experiences? If your whole intent is to keep it quiet, you do not go out of your way to make people sit-up and take notice. That would not be to your advantage.

Also why fake it only to turn around and go after those who disclose and whistle-blow regarding the UFO/Alien phenomenon? If your intent is too fake it and get people to believe it, then why go after those who expose the fact that they are real? Seems they would be doing a great job for the powers that be, and getting the word out.


Edit:

The UFO/Alien 60 + year cover-up by our government(s) truly makes the assassination of JFK et al., and 9-11 look like child's play. Agree, if you think governments can't keep secrets then I have a bridge I can . . . well, you know the rest of how that goes . . .


3. Aliens exist.

And they are following their own agendas in their rate/types of contact.

3. Agree, UFOs/Aliens exist.

This clearly is the more reasonable explaination for all the sightings throughout history and the disclosure that is taking place by many reputable people, and as well as governments of certain honest countries.

They do have an agenda, dark and sinister, and those who have made back-room deals with ET also have a dark sinister agenda. It is mutual, and one of the primary reasons for remaining secret for so long, 60 + years! The government(s) can indeed keep secrets, but at some point in time secrets do break down and sometimes become very well known, although officially never admitted too. I think that is what we are experiencing now. Disclosure is occuring world-wide whether the USA likes it or not.

Good.





This is a well known story in the UFO World-wide Community.



http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-paper-8.htm

Eisenhower’s 1954 Meeting With Extraterrestrials:
The Fiftieth Anniversary of First Contact?

Research Study #8


ABSTRACT

On the night and early hours of February 20-21, 1954, while on a ‘vacation’ to Palm Springs, California, President Dwight Eisenhower went missing and allegedly was taken to Edwards Air force base for a secret meeting. When he showed up the next morning at a church service in Los Angeles, reporters were told that he had to have emergency dental treatment the previous evening and had visited a local dentist. The dentist later appeared at a function that evening and presented as the ‘dentist’ who had treated Eisenhower. The missing night and morning has subsequently fueled rumors that Eisenhower was using the alleged dentist visit as a cover story for an extraordinary event. The event is possibly the most significant that any American President could have conducted: an alleged ‘First Contact’ meeting with extraterrestrials at Edwards Air Force base (previously Muroc Airfield), and the beginning of a series of meetings with different extraterrestrial races that led to a ‘treaty’ that was eventually signed. This astonishing First Contact event, if it occurred, will experience its 50th anniversary on February 20-21, 2004.

This paper explores the evidence that the First Contact meeting had occurred with extraterrestrials with a distinctive ‘Nordic’ appearance, the likelihood of an agreement having been spurned with this ‘Nordic race’, the start of a series of meetings that led to a treaty eventually being signed with a different extraterrestrial race dubbed the ‘Greys’, and the motivations of the different extraterrestrial races involved in these treaty discussions. The paper will further examine why these events were kept secret for so long, the significance of the 50th anniversary of Eisenhower’s meeting with extraterrestrials, and whether an official disclosure announcement is likely in the near future.



Lots more at the link for the article.

Anyone interested in UFOs/Aliens should know this story.



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 12:47am PT
No Klimmer, you took care of wasting your lunch
break, wether you looked up words or not.




So Pate,

You just admitted responding to you, communicating with you is a waste of my time. True?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 26, 2010 - 09:44pm PT



http://www.stargate-chronicles.com/those_who_know.html


Those Who Know
The following section contains quotes from famous and respected scientists, politicians and astronauts regarding UFO and ET phenomena.


The destruction or disappearance of military aircraft during interceptions of UFOs has continued in space. As General Benjamin Chidlaw, former commanding general of the Air Defense Command told Robert C. Gardener (ex USAF) in 1953: "We have stacks of reports of flying saucers. We take them seriously, when you consider we have lost many men and planes trying to intercept them." Leonard Stringfield, the former Air Force intelligence officer was told by a reliable source in the 1950s that the "Air Force was losing about a plane a day to the UFOs". (Thanks to Major George Filer and Timothy Good)



"We seek a free flow of information... we are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehoods in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."

John F. Kennedy



I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth."

President Harry S. Truman, 1950.



"If I become President, I'll make every piece of information this country has about UFO sightings available to the public and scientists. I am convinced that UFOs exist because I have seen one."

President Jimmy Carter during his Presidential campaign.
What happened after he was elected? Absolutely nothing. What stopped him?



"In the firm belief that the American public deserves a better explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs, and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment of the subject."

President Gerald Ford (during his years as a US Congressman).
What happened thereafter? Absolutely nothing. What stopped him?




"In our obsession with antagonisms of the moment, we often forget how much unites all the members of humanity. I occasionally think how quickly our differences, worldwide, would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world."

Former President Ronald Reagan, while sharing the stage with former Russian leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, 1988.
Was this stated to prepare the human race for an alien reality? Did alien contact influence the collapse of communism?




"It is true that I was denied access to a facility at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, because I never got in. I can't tell you what was inside. We both know about the rumors (concerning a captured UFO and crew members). I have never seen what I would call a UFO, but I have intelligent friends who have."

US Senator, US Air Force General, and candidate for President, Barry Goldwater, quoted from a letter he wrote dated April 11, 1979.
Did anything significant happen regarding UFO secrecy? The Pentagon warned him to drop his interest in UFOs. Why, if UFOs do not exist?




"Well, Slim, (McClelland's knick name by Astronaut friends), I was flying a P-51 Mustang at about 12,000 feet over Minneapolis in 1951. I thought it was a simple kite. As I flew closer to it I looked at it and thought it was a weather balloon. But as I got behind it I could tell it wasn't a balloon. It looked like a disc."

NASA astronaut, Donald "Deke" Slayton.




"Mission Control, please be informed, there is a Santa Claus."
— NASA astronaut, James Lovell (of Apollo 13 fame), flying with Frank Borman and William Anders, emerging from the dark side of the moon during their historic first circumlunar mission, Apollo-8, in December, 1968.
"Santa Claus" was the mission code used if sighting a strange object such as a UFO.




"While flying with several other USAF pilots over Germany in 1957, we sighted numerous radiant flying discs above us. We couldn't tell how high they were. We couldn't get anywhere near their altitude."

"While working with a camera crew supervising flight testing of advanced aircraft at Edward's Air Force Base, California, the camera crew filmed the landing of a strange disc object that flew in over their heads and landed on a dry lake nearby. A camera crewman approached the saucer, it rose up above the area and flew off at a speed faster than any known aircraft."

NASA astronaut, L. Gordon Cooper.




"I've talked with people of military and government credentials and position and heard their stories, and their desire to tell their stories openly to the public. And that got my attention very, very rapidly...the first hand experiences of these credible witnesses that, now in advanced years are anxious to tell their story. We can't deny that, and the evidence points to the fact that Roswell was a real incident, and that indeed an alien craft did crash, and that material was recovered from that crash site..."

Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Mission veteran.




"The next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets."

Former Five Star General of the Army, Douglas MacArthur, 1955.





In one of the strangest stories in recent years, former Apollo astronaut and Senator JOHN GLENN made a March appearance on the NBC comedy "Frasier" in which he made following comments. Although many have dismissed them as simple humor because of their context -- one of the most popular comedy's on television -- when you actually watch the program, listen to the words and observe Glenn's demeanor, it becomes much harder to dismiss this as “simple episodic comedy.”

"Back in those glory days, I was very uncomfortable when they asked us to say things we didn't want to say and deny other things. Some people asked, you know, were you alone out there? We never gave the real answer, and yet we see things out there, strange things, but we know what we saw out there. And we couldn't really say anything. The bosses were really afraid of this, they were afraid of the War of the Worlds type stuff, and about panic in the streets. So we had to keep quiet. And now we only see these things in our nightmares or maybe in the movies, and some of them are pretty close to being the truth."

Astronaut John Glenn





These remarks were made by NEIL ARMSTRONG at the White House on WEDNESDAY, JULY 20, 1994 during a ceremony commemorating the Apollo 11 mission:

"Today we have with us a group of students, among America's best. To you we say we have only completed a beginning. We leave you much that is undone. There are great ideas undiscovered, breakthroughs available to those who can remove one of the truth's protective layers. There are places to go beyond belief..."

Astronaut Neil Armstrong





From the St. Petersburg Times, Florida - February 18, 2004:

ST. PETERSBURG TIMES
Astronaut: We´ve had visitors

"A few insiders know the truth . . . and are studying the bodies that have been discovered," said Mitchell, who was the sixth man to walk on the moon.
Mitchell, who landed on the moon with Alan B. Shepard, said a "cabal" of insiders stopped briefing presidents about extraterrestrials after President Kennedy.

Astronaut Edgar Mitchell




According to a taped interview by J. L. Ferrando, Major Cooper said:

"For many years I have lived with a secret, in a secrecy imposed on all specialists in astronautics. I can now reveal that every day, in the USA, our radar instruments capture objects of form and composition unknown to us. And there are thousands of witness reports and a quantity of documents to prove this, but nobody wants to make them public. Why? Because authority is afraid that people may think of God knows what kind of horrible invaders. So the password still is: We have to avoid panic by all means"

"I was furthermore a witness to an extraordinary phenomenon, here on this planet Earth. It happened a few months ago in Florida. There I saw with my own eyes a defined area of ground being consumed by flames, with four indentations left by a flying object which had descended in the middle of a field. Beings had left the craft (there were other traces to prove this). They seemed to have studied topography, they had collected soil samples and, eventually, they returned to where they had come from, disappearing at enormous speed...I happen to know that authority did just about everything to keep this incident from the press and TV, in fear of a panicky reaction from the public"

Astronaut L. Gordon Cooper


MeatBomb

Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
May 27, 2010 - 12:59am PT
looney bin bump for the full moon
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
May 27, 2010 - 01:10am PT
knott meaning offense here Klimmer....
communicating with you is a waste of my time. True?


I just gotta point out that probably the majority of the taco feels like communicating with you is just that. A waste of time.

Now... I read a lot of what you post. I find it interesting. But you are pretty far out there and clearly have you idea on how things work. Cool. But I guess at the end of it all I'm really not a sci-fi fan. Which is where most of your ideas reside in my realm of thinking. But hey... that's must my opinion.

so I guess I'm just invoking the "pot, kettle, black" observation.

Pate often comes off like an ass. I doubt he really is. I look forward to smoking a bowl with him. Climbing with him. Chatting with him. But like it or knott, Klimmer, if you read what he writes (trolling or not) I bet you are not wasting your time.
Gene

Social climber
May 27, 2010 - 01:41am PT
Klimmer,

I ask the following with respect and curiosity. If I am not mistaken, in this &/or other threads you have stated your belief in Jesus. You have quoted the Good Book and seem very conversant in matters of Christian faith. John 3:16 is the Bible’s verse of verses.
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Doesn’t John 3:16 preclude salvation for Aliens since God’s love for our world resulted in “His one and only Son” coming here and not elsewhere in the universe?

If men were created in the image of God, what about Aliens?

g
nature

climber
Tucson, AZ
May 27, 2010 - 02:14am PT
don't ask the tough questions, Gene. It just gets ugly.

Aliens. There's no proof! err....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 27, 2010 - 05:48am PT
Of course you already know about the Mormon stealth group that's been converting and saving dead aliens for decades.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 09:41am PT
Gene,

You have asked a very good deep question. I'm busy at the moment but I will get back to your question as soon as I can.

I ponder these things too. I do not know it all for sure, but the Good Book does address what this all ultimately means.

Cooper, the Navy guy who knew so much about the UFO/Alien phenomenon and the Government cover-up talked about this and had info regarding this very question, before he was shot dead.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
To outline the question that Gene asked, because it is so important and so very deep, it really has to be framed and answered on a multi-level approach.

If we assume/think/know that UFOs/Aliens(or whatever they are) are a real physical phenomenon, (yes, I'm fully aware that some can not get past this hurdle, but just go with it for now ...), then what does this mean for, and in regards to?:

1. Society?

2. World Culture?

3. Faith and Religion?
    especially Christians and Christianity (what I am familiar with)
    Is there Salvation for all life, and is Salvation for all life necessary?

4. Governments?

5. Military Defense?

6. Science and Technology?
    especially Evolution

7. Each of us on a personal level?



Is the Brooking's Report regarding UFOs/Aliens/ET Intelligent Life done at the request and given to NASA in the 60's, correct in their conclusions?

I do not think the Brookings Report conclusions are correct.


Much more later. These are deep questions.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 27, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
They're more hypothetical / intellectual questions than deep ones, as the 'phenomena' are just that, there is no public, peer-reviewed evidence of any kind which even suggests aliens have ever visited the Earth.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
May 27, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
May 27, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Klimmer, When I was a kid I lived at RAF Woodbridge in England when the Rendlesham Forest/UFO thing went down.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
OTEASTD,

The Rendlesham Forest/UFO incident is one of the most documented and eye-witnessed events in UFO history, almost as famous as the Roswell Crash. I've seen the story related in the DVD "Out of the Blue." Amazing eye-witness testimony.

Just try telling these military men and officers that they didn't see, nor touch what they indeed did see and touch. Debunkers are weak, non-intellectuals and chicken-dung. These men have nothing to gain by making any of this up. In fact disclosing has only brought them problems, but now their consciences are clear. And now we know the truth.

It moved through the forest, then landed, and they walked up to it and some of them even touched it, the one officer made a sketch of it and made a sketch of the writing in a language not of this world that was on the electrostatically charged and multi-colored shimmering fuseluge. Then it just took-off. He shows those notes and drawings in the notebook that he carried with him.

They filed their military reports, and were all debriefed. And then were basically told (threatened) never to talk about it again. Way to go Uncle Sam. Brave souls all of them, for those who have come forward to speak publically regarding the incident. Some haven't, they are too scared or still too upset by the encounter. The military has all their filed reports.

It's real.

Too many witnesses have come forward of high standing, all honest, and respectable, even our National Heros involved with the Space Program. Too many have come forward and have told the truth. You can't put this Genie back in the bottle. The truth is known and its out and its not ever going to go back in. Sightings are increasing not decreasing. Those who denie it have their heads buried far, far into the sand.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
May 27, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
I don't know one way or another, but it was a pretty big friggen deal (especially for a certain eleven year old boy) on the base. Me and my friends definately spent a lot of time conducting our own investigation. Our results were inconclusive.

In my adult life I met a guy who was a retired colonel who (he said) had been involved, he swore it was real.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 06:44pm PT
Very cool story and experience, thanks for sharing it.

:-))
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 27, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
Again, zero evidence - all just heresay and popular myth self-referencing and recirculated again and again on the Internet like so much plastic floatsam in the North Pacific Gyre.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 27, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
But for some real news on the state-of-the-art [near] space travel:


X-51 Waverider Makes Historic Ramjet-Powered Hypersonic Flight
ScienceDaily (May 27, 2010) —

An X-51A Waverider flight-test vehicle successfully made the longest supersonic combustion ramjet-powered hypersonic flight May 26 off the southern California Pacific coast.

The more than 200 second burn by the X-51's Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne-built air breathing scramjet engine accelerated the vehicle to Mach 5. The previous longest scramjet burn in a flight test was 12 seconds in a NASA X-43.

Air Force officials called the test, the first of four planned, an unqualified success. The flight is considered the first use of a practical hydrocarbon fueled scramjet in flight.

"We are ecstatic to have accomplished most of our test points on the X-51A's very first hypersonic mission," said Charlie Brink, a X-51A program manager with the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio. "We equate this leap in engine technology as equivalent to the post-World War II jump from propeller-driven aircraft to jet engines."

The X-51 launched at about 10 a.m. from here, carried under the left wing of an Air Force Flight Test Center B-52 Stratofortress. Then, flying at 50,000 feet over the Point Mugu Naval Air Warfare Center Sea Range, it was released. Four seconds later an Army Tactical Missile solid rocket booster accelerated the X-51 to about Mach 4.8 mach before it and a connecting interstage were jettisoned. The launch and separation were normal, Mr. Brink said.

Four X-51A cruisers have been built for the Air Force and the (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) by industry partners Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne and Boeing. Air Force officials intend to fly the three remaining X-51A flight test vehicles this fall, Mr. Brink said.

Air Force officials currently plan to fly each on virtually identical flight profiles, building knowledge from each successive flight.

Hypersonic flight, normally defined as beginning at Mach 5, five times speed of sound, presents unique technical challenges with heat and pressure, which make conventional turbine engines impractical. Program officials said producing thrust with a scramjet has been compared to lighting a match in a hurricane and keeping it burning.

"This first flight was the culmination of a six-year effort by a small, but very talented AFRL, DARPA and industry development team," Mr. Brink said. "Now we will go back and really scrutinize our data. No test is perfect, and I'm sure we will find anomalies that we will need to address before the next flight. But anyone will tell you that we learn just as much, if not more, when we encounter a glitch."

Mr. Brink noted while development of the X-51A's engine and the test program are complex, controlling costs has been a key objective. The team has incorporated or adapted existing proven technologies and elected from the outset not to build recovery systems in the flight test vehicles, in an effort to control costs and focus funding on the vehicle's fuel-cooled scramjet engine.

Mr. Brink said he believes the X-51A program will provide knowledge required to develop the game changing technologies needed for future access to space and hypersonic weapon applications.
dustonian

climber
RRG
May 27, 2010 - 07:33pm PT
A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception. Psychiatry defines the term more specifically as a belief that is pathological (the result of an illness or illness process). As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, dogma, stupidity, apperception, illusion, or other effects of perception.

Delusions typically occur in the context of neurological or mental illness, although they are not tied to any particular disease and have been found to occur in the context of many pathological states (both physical and mental). However, they are of particular diagnostic importance in psychotic disorders and particularly in schizophrenia, paraphrenia, manic episodes of bipolar disorder, and psychotic depression.

Psychiatric definition

Although non-specific concepts of madness have been around for several thousand years, the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his 1917 book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:

* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. The most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines a delusion as:

A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 27, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
People say all sorts of things. People perceive and misperceive all sorts of things. Aliens, ghosts, gods, devils, angels, sasquatches, nessies, past lives, esp, telepathy, teleportation, faith healing, psychic surgery, alchemy, antigravity, perpetual motion, etc. - you name it and there's an relentless cult of 'sworn eyewitnesses' for each. But set up a booth in times square or the capital mall, turn on the cameras, and ask anyone to walk up and produce hard evidence of any of it in front of a the gathered crowd, cameras, and a panel of a variety of scientists. Nada.

None of it exists.
WBraun

climber
May 27, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
"None of it exists."


Only according to you .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 27, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
HJ,

Prove that Shoemaker-Levy slammed into Jupiter.

All we have are remote sensing images and the associated data, and beyond that eye-witnesses. It could have been all faked right?

You probably didn't observe it directly when it happened. Yet, you are more than likely able to accept the fact that it happened. Based on these evidences and eye-witness testimonies.

That particular event was a one time event never to be repeated again exactly the same exact way.

Had we not discovered the comet Shoemaker-Levy prior to it breaking apart and slamming into Jupiter, good chance we would have missed the entire show. We may have seen something slam into Jupiter, but then not known fully well exactly what had we seen before the big event.

So, you are more than likely able to accept the event of Shoemaker-Levy with all the images, data, and all the eyewitnesses, but when it comes to eyewitnesses and remote sensing images, RADAR signatures, and data of UFOs/Aliens you have the knee-jerk reaction, I'm not buying it, it is all fake, made-up, or make-believe.

In some government released UFO reports these kinds of evidences are detailed and released.

Why the double standard?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 12:19am PT
SPACE ANOMALY: STS-75 "Tether Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMe4TD6svH8
Edit: Note how the UFOs often go behind the tether, so they are even a little further than tether. They must be massive in size.

More on Tether: "nasa tether ufo incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gh_OD2-gQY&feature=related



"There is a secret war being waged in Space."
Very interesting Official NASA video from the Space Shuttle and its analysis . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqMf3towVVI


Object on the Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9NWR5Dn6QI&feature=related


Apollo Android Pt.1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waX_v51pY2U&feature=related

Apollo Android Pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gd0hBK7_8c&feature=related
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 28, 2010 - 04:04am PT
Prove that Shoemaker-Levy slammed into Jupiter.

Pretty much says it all - to a conspiracy nut there are no 'facts' because all statements, observations, and evidence are inherently of equal veracity and dubiousness. All sources are at once equally authoritative and suspect. With a mindset (dare I say, logic) where you can't discriminate right from wrong, black from white, true from false, and up from down nothing is real, certain, and there are essentially no facts, only beliefs - i.e. you can believe anything you want and all beliefs and realities are equal. Two plus two equals whatever you'd like it to in such a personal and subjective Wonderland.

In the end it's all just religiously equivalence. I think that people with these outlooks just can't stop themselves from projecting meaninglessness, mundaneness, inadequacy, boredom, oppression, innanity, and fear onto this planet and their own lives. Somehow life in the here and now and all it offers simply isn't enough - they crave and need more: superior entities, superior realms, and probably most important, superior possibilities for themselves in some superior beyond. The list of creatures, powers, and devices I posted above are just shared group symbols of a deep longing for such possibilities.

Who knows - maybe some people self-imposed an association of corporeal life with a sense of primitive groveling that they feel should be quite beneath us. I personally find such perspectives and outlooks on life sad if not depressing because they represent a lack of appreciation of what we are offered every day we live on this majestic orb. In fact, I rope up every chance I get just for a shot at that primitive groveling.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 09:54am PT
Can I be the first one to say, "Huh?"

Man get to the point.

I'm sure you realize that I know that S-L slamming into Jupiter is real. I was making a very clear point in regards to how you pick and choose what evidence you will accept as real.

The videos just above are actual NASA Space Shutle footage, and even Mission Control was mentioning all the goings on. And you can clearly see the UFOs go behind tether. They knew how far away tether was. From that you can estimate the size of those things. They are massive, fast, and can blink out at will. The light they were emanating was even throbing or pulsing at times as can be clearly seen.

This video shows that space is teaming with UFOs surrounding Earth. Remember, they where filming in UV and captured all these goings on.

Perhaps here on Earth people should be capturing video in UV and we would see a lot more activity than we already do know about.

But I'm just gonna make a wild guess. To you it is all faked, not real, a spoof, just delusional astronauts and mission control technicians right?



Edit:

Corrected a misspelled word . . .

Because MB, the spelling police of ST pointed it out. I have always admitted that "yes, sometimes my spelling sucks." Such is life. Didn't realize that ST was only accepting and requiring final peer reviewed copies and type-set for publication now. Give me a break.

I don't have any personal need or desire to point out everyone's spelling errors or grammatical errors, and we all know there are plenty here on ST. It is a forum, not a publication or journal. I think a little tolerance is required.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 11:38am PT
You are right K. It is truly amazing what you see in that video.

So Mike Bolte,

Tell us what do YOU see in those videos with the NASA Tether project? It is a real phenomenon, both the NASA Misssion Control techs and the Astronauts mention it. And keep in mind the phenomenon often passes/travels behind Tether. They show up using UV imaging cameras. They travel fast. And they strobe the EM waves they emit.

So what are they Mike?
dirtbag

climber
May 28, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
My head hurts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
Mike Bolte,

Why do you keep vanishing your posts here on this topic? Are you so worried that someone will see you discussing or argueing against UFOs/Aliens and it will be intellectually embarassing or that somehow it will threaten your career?

Like I pointed out before even Stephen Hawkings can manage to talk about it and even warn us, and now we learn that Carl Sagan knew UFOs/Aliens are a real phenomenon.

What are you so scared of? The truth?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
Pate,

I only see immaturity on your part. That is all I see.

I feel sorry for you because you can not interact any other way.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
The Tether Space Shuttle experiment is well documented in a Discovery DVD on Magnetism, that I show my Physics students during the Magnetism Unit.

They show the experiment at the beginning of the film and discuss how the long "Tether" a wire cable sweeping through the Earth's Magnetic field induces Electric Current (EM induction: Magnetism induces Electricity, and Electricity induces Magnetism). Yes, it generated enough current (amps) to burn Tether and it drifted off.

In the film they only show visble light footage of Tether, but obviuosly using a UV sensitive imaging system lots more was happening.


This company designs and sells UV imaging systems. Look at the FAQ section for some interesting applications that they keep getting requests for!

http://www.uvcorder.com/index.html

http://www.uvcorder.com/products/faq/index.html


Very interesting. Everyone should be using Visible/UV camcorders, and we would probably capture more great footage and evidence.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 28, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
Is that your skinny ass Pate? Nice picture man....how long did it take to make your helmet there????

You are smart to cover your face....I got some photoshops ready for you butthole.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 28, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
Rockjox - so you agree with Klimmer that the tether experiment was plagued by aliens (a simple yes or no would suffice)?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
Rockjox - so you agree with Klimmer that the tether experiment was plagued by aliens (a simple yes or no would suffice)?


HJ,

Get it right. UFOs.

That is exactly what is imaged in the NASA Astronaut shot UV video from the tether experiment. They are Unidentified Flying Objects. And there are many of them as can be clearly seen.

What exactly they are is not clear, but these UFOs certainly seem intelligent due to their behavior.


So, HJ how about your opinion on what they are?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 28, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
I don't know what they are, but they aren't 'flying' and their is nothing intelligent in there movement - maybe I'd go as far as UO's. It looks to me to be something that's come off or out of the shuttle at the time of the tether deployment. Not much different from John Glenn's fascination with his urine would be my guess.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 04:59am PT
HJ,

Yea rrriiiiigggghhhttttt, ice, urine, debri that clearly move in fast straight line patterns, accelerating and deccelerating, with the strobing UV light they reflect or emit (rememeber that they show in UV video film footage and not in visisble) and they are clearly most often passing behind Tether that is many miles away.

Yea rrriiiiigggghhhtttt, somehow it is common ice, urine, or debri from the Space Shuttle. Somehow all those common ejecta from the Space Shuttle race toward Tether and display all this behavior. How do all of these common ejecta from the Space Shuttle miles away (video says 100 nautical miles) show up so big and pass behind Tether?

Man those must be some big pieces of ice, massive amounts of urine or poop, or giant massive bags of space trash. Yea, that is critical thinking.

The term UFOs is just fine. Everyone knows what that means, and it has been in common historical use for a very longtime now. Most people (who have had a course in physics) would know you don't actually "fly" in space, but propel through the void of space via Newton's 3rd Law: Action and Reaction, and Newton's 1st Law: Inertia, or perhaps propel through space via antigravity, altering time and space (speculation).

SPACE ANOMALY: STS-75 "Tether Incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMe4TD6svH8
Edit: Note how the UFOs often go behind the tether, so they are even a little further than tether. They must be massive in size.

More on Tether: "nasa tether ufo incident"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gh_OD2-gQY&feature=related



Pate,


You outed yourself (Lol).

Gee, someone has too much time on their hands.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 29, 2010 - 05:06am PT
Wow, if that's your interpretation of the video then you're in far worse shape than I imagined. Pretty sad. I have higher hopes for rockjox.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
May 29, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
Yo Klim!
Watched the History Channel last night. I had no idea so many astronauts have 'come out' and said NASA has engaged in a long-standing coverup. No matter what your stance is on UFO's I for one am not about to denigrate these men who risked their lives repeatedly and have now risked their reputations. These are brave and honorable men. Who among us would have the temerity to call them liars to their faces?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
Reilly,

Cool. Sorry I missed it. But I've seen several of the programs. I'll have to be more vigalent and watch it.

Recently pre-ordered the entire series: Ancient Aliens, but the entire season will not be available until August (uuugggghhh) . . .

Ancient Aliens: The Complete Season 1 DVD Set
http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=263607&v=history&fbst=48



By the way, I agree with you :-))
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 29, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
it is really sad that the UFOologists would set the argument up in terms of right vs. wrong... and truth tellers vs. liars.

I don't think the astronauts are lying, I just don't think the interpretation of what they saw was correct. People like Klimmer want to prove there are aliens and extraterrestrial UFOs, they use "common sense" to make the argument that we couldn't possibly explain "the behavior" of these things, and jump to the conclusion that the "only" explanation is the one they are pushing... we are visited by UFOs.

This extraordinary claim is not backed up by any hard evidence. However, Klimmer et al. claim that the hard evidence is conveniently kept from us, every bit of it gobbled up by some international conspiracy to prevent us from knowing what is causing these observations.

As for the impossibility of long distance space travel, well the argument goes that we don't know everything, and that these beings are so advanced they've figured it out... we can't possibly imagine what it is they are doing it, but since they are here, they are doing it.... which is a circular argument, of course.

You are fooling yourselves into a particular interpretation of a lot of poorly reported, observations which do not positively support or refute any particular interpretation.

It is truly the symptom of the coming dark-ages that the scientific origins of our technological sophistication are forgotten and we immediately jump to explain these phenomena as "angles and demons" because the more scientific explanations violate our "common sense." It is the belief in the primacy of the human esthetic, that the entire universe acts as we act... and therefore, anything that seems at odds with that cannot be true.

"I see it with my own eyes, and therefore it must be true." Down that path is a 1000 years of grief and backwardness. We've done it before, it seems we'll do it again.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 29, 2010 - 02:52pm PT
if you are referring to me Rok, I have never said they didn't see something...
...perhaps in you haste to dismiss any criticism you overlooked that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
Rokjox,

If you watch both Tether videos closely, in one of them they zoom in and slow it down and sure enough some of those "thingies" (UFOs) are turning with large radius circles (acceleration by changing direction) as they go by Tether. So some are turning, by not many. Most are going straight.




Edit:



Ed,

At least you have come along way. You are admitting they (we) are seeing something. Yes, we can all agree on that. What exactly it is . . . is in disbute. True.

We are seeing something and the "something" we are seeing doesn't seem to fit anything that man can do, or that we have publically acknowledged creating, via "Black Op Project" or otherwise.

So what is it? And it should be investigated openly and immediately. Why the appearance of disinterest on our Government and Military's part? Why the disinterest in the Scientific Community? Is the Science Community worried about loosing funding if they investigate it? Are they worrried about ridicule? I think so. That was Carl Sagan's worry and why he didn't come out and truly say what he thought. He even went out of his way to debunk it. Sorry that isn't honest science.

Me thinks their publically appeared disinterest professes too much.

And you know what, many in Government, Military, and even NASA technicians and Astronauts agree. The guv is covering-up and has been for 60 + years.

I'm not telling you this Ed, they are. They are the ones who have come out and said this and openly in public. This is not my first person testimony, it is their's. I'm just relating what they have said and directing toward the first person accounts. I trust them. I believe them. They are putting their lives and careers on the line to tell the truth. I'm going to listen to them.

There are plenty of evidences. And yes, they do confiscate and cover it up, what they can cover it up and when they can control it. Some things are beyond their control. They also refuse to discuss it openly. Many other countries are coming forward. Why not the USA? Some "White-hats" do disclose at times what they can, and when they can, that are within our government, military, and NASA. Some people have a conscience and are good hearted people. I thank GOD for people like that.

This hiding of knowledge and covering-up is massive fraud toward all the citizens of Earth. It is fraud in science, it is fraud in government, and it is fraud in military toward all the citizens of the US of A, no matter how you slice it.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 29, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
This hiding of knowledge and covering-up is massive fraud toward all the citizens of Earth. It is fraud in science, it is fraud in government, and it is fraud in military toward all the citizens of the US of A, no matter how you slice it.

except the "slice" that is the real possibility (overwhelming) that they aren't alien intelligence, but rather some complicated natural phenomena we don't yet understand.

If that is what is happening, then you have no grounds to accuse anyone of "fraud."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
"This hiding of knowledge and covering-up is massive fraud toward all the citizens of Earth. It is fraud in science, it is fraud in government, and it is fraud in military toward all the citizens of the US of A, no matter how you slice it."

except the "slice" that is the real possibility (overwhelming) that they aren't alien intelligence, but rather some complicated natural phenomena we don't yet understand.

If that is what is happening, then you have no grounds to accuse anyone of "fraud."



Yes, IF it is a "natural phenomenon" that we do not yet understand, then yes, it would not be fraud.

However, then you have to discount all the testiomonies from people that are in a place to know the truth of the matter from NASA technicians, NASA Astronauts, Military personel and Officers, and Government politicians whom have been coming out in large numbers (400+ in The Disclosure Project alone) and they are all agreeing with one another, our Government and many others have agreed to cover-up and hide the truth of the UFO/Alien phenomenon.

Well, that dark, smokey backroom, unethical "deal" and immoral agreement is breaking down. And I say good.

Let the truth be known. Let the light in. It's liberating. We could use the technology to clean up our World and see a better day.

And yes, we should heed Stephen Hawking's warning. I agree with him there for sure. Don't trust ET, but use their technology. And everyone here at ST I'm sure who has been following this dicussion already knows what I think who they really are. I would not trust them one little bit. However, they are brilliantly smart. So take the keys to the Saucer and take the technology, but kick them in the butt. Any creature that hides, stalks, invades our privacy, captures innocent victims, abducts and does unspeakable horrific things to people (basically rapes them) are certainly not to be trusted. That is behavior that is completely contrary to the truth.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 29, 2010 - 10:46pm PT
Crop circles? And aliens in the space shuttle? Really rockjox?

Wow, further conversation is now pretty much officially pointless...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
Message to all Naysayers,


If you remember one thing out of all this discussion, Please remember to stay away from the Probe and don't trust any of them!

;-)



Chuck Missler - Return Of The Nephilim
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3473883928564642733#






WBraun

climber
May 30, 2010 - 01:43am PT
Well you're a thread gerbil, you should know that one .....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2010 - 10:34pm PT
A great conversation for scientists and for believers both on Internet radio. Very interesting topic "Are we alone in the Universe?" . . .

Unbelievable? 17 Apr 2010 - Are we alone in the universe? Paul Davies & John Lennox
http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={CD6D82AC-9A89-41D7-8D9E-F6712260177F}


What does it take for life to get going in our universe? Is there intelligence in the stars or right under our nose? Renowned astrophysicist Paul Davies chats to Oxford Professor of Mathematics John Lennox.

A popular science author, Davies is also the Chair of the SETI post detection task force. His latest book "The Eerie Silence" which marks SETI's 50th anniversary examines the likelihood of the universe producing life elsewhere.

John Lennox is a Christian Mathematician and philosopher. He is the author of "God's Undertaker: has science buried God?" and has debated Richard Dawkins on several occasions.

Davies' work on the fine tuning of the universe for life has been sympathetic to theism. In this programme Lennox challenges Davies to look to design not just in cosmology but in the cell. They also chat about what the discovery of ET would mean for Christian theology.

For Paul Davies see http://cosmos.asu.edu/

For his book "The Eerie Silence" click here

For John Lennox see http://johnlennox.org/



Great listen :-))


Edit:

It is wonderful to hear 3 English gentleman talking, listening, and debating without anger but with respect. It would be nice if ST could do something similiar.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 31, 2010 - 12:25am PT
A recent view of the space alien rock circle on the farside of the Moon.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 31, 2010 - 01:48am PT

from the 70s:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngvt9tPROzc

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2010 - 02:35am PT
Somewhere on this thread we got into this debate . . . so here is the latest. Pretty cool. Dawn sets a new record for acceleration of a Man-made spacecraft/probe.



http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2010-192


NASA's Dawn Spacecraft Fires Past Record for Speed Change

June 07, 2010


PASADENA, Calif.-- Deep in the heart of the asteroid belt, on its way to the first of the belt's two most massive inhabitants, NASA's ion-propelled Dawn spacecraft has eclipsed the record for velocity change produced by a spacecraft's engines.

The previous standard-bearer for velocity change, NASA's Deep Space 1, also impelled by ion propulsion, was the first interplanetary spacecraft to use this technology. The Deep Space 1 record fell on Saturday, June 5, when the Dawn spacecraft's accumulated acceleration over the mission exceeded 4.3 kilometers per second (9,600 miles per hour).

"We are using this amazing ion-engine technology as a stepping-stone to orbit and explore two of the asteroid belt's most mysterious objects, Vesta and Ceres," said Robert Mase, Dawn project manager from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

A spacecraft's change in velocity refers to its ability to change its path through space by using its own rocket engines. This measurement of change begins only after the spacecraft exits the last stage of the launch vehicle that hurled it into space.

To get to where it is in both the record books and the asteroid belt, the Dawn spacecraft had to fire its three engines – one at a time-- for a cumulative total of 620 days. In that time, it has used less than 165 kilograms (363 pounds) of xenon propellant. Over the course of its eight-plus-year mission, Dawn's three ion engines are expected to accumulate 2,000 days of operation -- 5.5 years of thrusting -- for a total change in velocity of more than 38,620 kilometers per hour (24,000 miles per hour).

"I am delighted that it will be Dawn that surpasses DS1's record," said Marc Rayman, chief engineer for the Dawn mission and a previous project manager for Deep Space 1."It is a tribute to all those involved in the design and operations of this remarkable spacecraft."

At first glance, Dawn's pedal-to-the-metal performance is a not-so-inspiring 0-to-97 kilometers per hour (0-to-60 miles per hour) in four days. But due to its incredible efficiency, it expends only 37 ounces of xenon propellant during that time. Then take into consideration that after those four days of full-throttle thrusting, it will do another four days, and then another four. By the end of 12 days, the spacecraft will have increased its velocity by more than 290 kilometers per hour (180 miles per hour), with more days and weeks and months of continuous thrusting to come. In one year's time, Dawn's ion propulsion system can increase the spacecraft's speed by 8,850 kilometers per hour (5,500 miles per hour), while consuming the equivalent of only 16 gallons of fuel.

"This is a special moment for the spacecraft team," said Dawn's principal investigator, Chris Russell of the University of California Los Angeles. "In only 407 days, our minds will be on another set of records, the data records that Dawn will transmit when we enter Vesta orbit."

Dawn's 4.8-billion-kilometer (3-billion-mile) odyssey includes exploration of asteroid Vesta in 2011 and 2012, and the dwarf planet Ceres in 2015. These two icons of the asteroid belt have been witness to much of our solar system's history. By using the same set of instruments at two separate destinations, scientists can more accurately formulate comparisons and contrasts. Dawn's science instrument suite will measure shape, surface topography and tectonic history, elemental and mineral composition, as well as seek out water-bearing minerals. In addition, the way the Dawn spacecraft orbits both Vesta and Ceres will be used to measure the celestial bodies' masses and gravity fields.

While Dawn surpassed Deep Space 1's record for velocity change, Deep Space 1 will continue to reign as holder for the longest duration of powered spaceflight for another few months. Dawn is expected to take over that record on about August 10 of this year.

The Dawn mission to Vesta and Ceres is managed by JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. The University of California, Los Angeles, is responsible for overall Dawn mission science. Other scientific partners include Planetary Science Institute, Tucson, Ariz.; Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, Katlenburg-Lindau, Germany; DLR Institute for Planetary Research, Berlin, Germany; Italian National Institute for Astrophysics, Rome; and the Italian Space Agency, Rome. Orbital Sciences Corporation of Dulles, Va., designed and built the Dawn spacecraft.

To learn more about Dawn and its mission to the asteroid belt, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/dawn



DC Agle
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
818-393-9011
david.c.agle@nasa.gov

2010-192
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2010 - 02:51am PT
Apparently Lunar ETs are into trundling! They obviuosly have taken it to a higher level. You got to roll Moon rocks/boulders down the sides of a massive impact crater, and then make it into the bowl of a younger smaller crater. You have to call it before you roll it though. Big points are possible if you do so. Man they are brilliant! (Lol)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundling



http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/lroc_browse/view/M122597190LE


http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/05/24/lunar-boulder-hits-a-hole-in-one/

Lunar boulder hits a hole in one!










Calling Rokjox,


http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/images/

"LROC (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera), which is aboard the lunar satellite LRO (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter), is currently collecting data and returning an immense wealth of information in the form of images of the Moon. Below you will find our major resources of released images and data from LROC:"

We need to find a massive ship on the backside of the Moon!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2010 - 09:58am PT
We have a way out of our environmental degradation. There is a better way. We do not need to destroy our Earth with the use of non-renewable finite resources that pollute our planet.

The Gulf of Mexico disaster does not have to keep re-occuring. We can end it. There is a better way to go and the technology is known.

Some hold the purse and the power, and they do not want to let go of it, but if we are to continue and to do better and if Earth is to survive our brutal treatment of her, we have to do it a better, cleaner, renewable, and infinite energy way.

We need the technology, we do not need the secrecy, the lies, and the hiding.



Fastwalkers, the complete DVD (1hr.38min.):
http://www.guba.com/watch/3000029475/UFO-Smoking-GUN

Jim Marrs Preview for Fastwalkers and Open Files DVDs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31FjKZbCwqc&feature=player_embedded#!
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Jun 10, 2010 - 10:52am PT
I know what created those craters.
























Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 18, 2010 - 11:16pm PT
Very good video by the History Channel. It was on last night 6-17-10:

UFO Files: UFOs and the White House Part I
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2409768

UFO Files: UFOs and the White House Part II
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoID=1118466081





Edit:

The woman above is the official Cheerleader for the program I think.

(lol)
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Jun 19, 2010 - 12:43am PT
Verrrry nice goatboy! Is she a friend of yours?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2010 - 01:01am PT
Another very good one . . .

Many Professional Pilots both commercial and private, and many NASA Astronauts and their enourmous amount of witnessed sightings: We have audio recordings, images and footage, RADAR tracks, and official reports written, turned-in, and filed. Some reports are hidden, and some have come out now due to FOIA requests.

History Channel
UFO Files: Black Box UFO Secrets
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8614351526846808167#
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jun 19, 2010 - 01:29am PT
The SuperTopo Pedants’ Agains’t Apos’trophe, Adjective and Alliteration Abus’e and As’s’orted Grammatical Atros’ities’ will soon add its remarks.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 19, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
Wow! I have never seen this film before. It is really, really good.

Dan Aykroyd, the full Professor of UFOs.

This film covers all the bases and in very good detail. I'm blown away. Dan has been interested in UFOs since a little boy in the 1950s. He is incredibly knowledgeable about all the related phenomenon. Very well spoken. Very well read. And he knows all the stats and the topics and knows all the people to talk to, and all the best incidents of UFOs/Alien contact and abductions.

He also has some very interesting personal experiences.

I highly recommend this film.


Dan Aykroyd - Unplugged on Ufo's
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8614351526846808167#docid=-8993422112864357113


st_mini_me

Social climber
Olamola,NM
Jun 24, 2010 - 11:48am PT
Mars cave opening found by 7th graders

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20008507-1.html
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Jul 15, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Those pesky Aliens are at it again.

http://buzz.yahoo.com/buzzlog/93848?fp=1
dirtbag

climber
Jul 15, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
You know, I am damn proud to say that we have among the finest collection of kooks to be found anywhere on the interweb.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Jul 15, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
Newsflash!!!!!


UFOs <> Aliens
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Jul 15, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
You know, I am damn proud to say that we have among the finest collection of kooks to be found anywhere on the interweb.
We have a pretty motley crue over at rc.n00b too, ya know.

Just take a stroll through the Soap Box... There's even a little crossover.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 15, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Just finishing reading Luca Scantamburlo's new book:

Apollo 20 The Disclosure
Moon: A Joint US and Soviet Space Mission on the Dark Side of the Moon

http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-20-Disclosure-Luca-Scantamburlo/dp/1445273977/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1281891917&sr=8-1


Several things mentioned in the book I didn't know before, and I've followed the story of Apollo 20 since the beginning in April of 2007. Very good read. Detailed. A little hard to read at times because Lucas's native language is Italian first.

I'm even more convinced that Vandenburg AFB could have easily sent off Saturn V rockets from that remote base. Even today, Vandenburg is pretty remote. Plenty of cover. Rocket complex SCL 6 is tucked behind Tranquility Peak and hills of cover and near the coast.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/facility/images/vafb-map1.gif


It seems as though the summer of 2010 is a summer of more disclosure. A new book is out and the UK government has just done another big dump of official UFO records this month - August.

UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover] Leslie Kean (Author)
With a Foreword by John Podesta
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1281892595&sr=1-3

I highly suggest that everyone read the Foreword by John Podesta for free on-line at Amazon.com. Good stuff.





Newly released UFO files from the UK government:
http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Files released in August 2010
The files contain a wide range of UFO-related documents, drawings, letters and parliamentary questions covering the years 1995-2003.

Discover which part of the country had the most reported UFO sightings and find out more about the terror attack foretold in a dream, mysterious objects tracked by radar and the 100-1 bet on alien life.

Start by reading our highlights guide (PDF, 332kb) to help you navigate your way through the files.

Due to the large size of some of these files, we recommend you save them to your PC before opening them. Please right click on the links and select the ‘save’ option.



Drip . . . Drip . . . Drip

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 16, 2010 - 02:40am PT
Let it go Klimmer. School is starting for you, maybe you better concentrate on surviving the cutbacks, because if I was an admin at your school, and I knew what you posted and when you did it, I'd can you so fast.




Pate,

Do us all a favor and can yourself from ST. Edit yourself out of existance. An end of your abusses would help everyone tremendously.

Some people shouldn't be allowed on any forum, and you'd be canidate number one. Take a few others with you while you are at it.

One thing can be said for sure, you are the perfect example for anyone to point to and demonstrate to others how someone should never behave in public, and how to never behave on a forum, no matter if it is private or public.

I'm thinking your marriages failed primarily because you are you. You are abussive and way over the top.

And you are wrong on just about everything.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 16, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
I'd rather read anybody's nutty (or ahead of their time) ideas than just plain slander and hostility.

I don't know why people behave on the net in ways that would make them social outcastes in person. I know the posters don't actually behave that way cause I've met so many taco eaters and they're all OK in person

Peace

karl
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
So many legs, so little time!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
I'm just suggesting folks aspire to act as they would in person.

If your excuse is that they suck, why suck worse? There are always people in the world who don't agree with you. Why let them bring you down to such a level. Do you think telling them to screw themselves makes them regret belittling you? You think it makes them feel wrong? Filling the forum with venom just belittles you and chases people away.

I think it exceedingly rare that I post to that level but I do get argumentative and sometimes post insultingly to those who advocate violence, prejudice and war.

And I've been contemplating posting a apology for that behavior but haven't had the time to compose an appropriate one.

Maybe tonight!

Peace

Karl
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
I love you man



But your puppy is dead meat


Sorry, its a hippy thing

:-)

Karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
klimmer said,
Pate,

Do us all a favor and can yourself from ST. Edit yourself out of existance. An end of your abusses would help everyone tremendously.

Some people shouldn't be allowed on any forum, and you'd be canidate number one. Take a few others with you while you are at it.

One thing can be said for sure, you are the perfect example for anyone to point to and demonstrate to others how someone should never behave in public, and how to never behave on a forum, no matter if it is private or public.

I'm thinking your marriages failed primarily because you are you. You are abussive and way over the top.

And you are wrong on just about everything.

dude, pate is trying to help you out here. it is a shame you can't see it. course when you are busy seeing massive ark's on the moon it may not give you much room to see much else....does your school have a drug testing program for you science teachers?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 16, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
too bad you wont find out RJ, i doubt he is interested in you. i heard he also doenst swing your way....
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Aug 16, 2010 - 06:14pm PT
Pate is a damaged mind!

Sad to think of what could have been.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 01:08am PT
Drip . . . Drip . . . Drip . . .


Physics PhD Michio Kaku: UFOs Are Real - MSNBC Dylan Ratigan Show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pw13F7ahjY

Got to get that book . . . looks really good.


Hey, we have the DNA! We have the EBEs! We have the technology and the crashed crafts that we back-engineered! They just aren't publically disclosing it. But those in the know -- know, and have seen it.

And we know exactly where to look. Here is a red-blue 3D of the derelict spacecraft on the backside of the Moon. The image has been flipped top to bottom from the original for some reason. I'll try later to flip it over.


That 3 dimensional craft that is almost 5km long is no massive rock. Check it out with your 3D red-blue glasses. That massive nose is well off the Lunar surface with sunlight passing below and casting a shadow to the side. Too many official NASA Apollo images of this spacecraft anomaly exist. They wouldn't waste their time re-imaging the same Lunar soil or rock over and over again. (And remember, a massive rock this size wouldn't just settle onto the surface of the Moon. It would make a massive impact crater and then would raporize in the process.) They were transfixed on this Alien massive object of desire, and it easily became an obsession, an object of scientific study, and clandestine rendezvous missions.



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
Rokjox,

Thanks. Haven't seen those 2 websites before.


Read both websites. Very interesting. NGS website has a lot to say between the lines. Probably will have to move back the time-line for the US to establish a permanent Moon Base, no thanks to Obama's decision. I think that needs to be rethought and revisited. We should go back to the Moon. We should go to Mars in a public fashion. Make jobs. Do science. Work for the future.

The other site is very interesting. Lots to look into there. I have my own hypotheses and beliefs regarding it all obviously. I'm in agreement with many other Christians who know these things. The Universe is 14+ Billion years and the Heavenly Host that GOD created were there to witness it, and see it created and watch it evolve over time. The Heavenly Hosts must have been created with their own free-will because 33% of them turned their backs on GOD and went their own way. The Sons of GOD who fell became false and surrigate GODs to mankind (hence multi-theism and many ancient religions) and taught us things we shouldn't ever have known, like how to War and kill each other. Much more can be said about this. Read the Book of Enoch.

PhD Gerald Schroeder, the Science of GOD. If GOD at the Big Bang sent out a signal every 24 hours for 6 days, we on our end would receive these signals at Billions of year intervals, Special Relativity. We would recieve all of these signals only after 14+ Billion years. The Universe is expanding. The Bible and Science are in agreement:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/ScienceGod.aspx
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AccordingToGod.aspx

PhD Michael Heiser, ancient language and Hebrew scholar. He knows the Bible:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9085354855847418841#docid=-3530280427590862518
http://www.facadethebook.com/

Also David Flynn's website and the fallen Heavenly Hosts influence throughout our Solar System, including Mars:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
Leslie Kean's Blog regarding her book,

UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover]
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282628991&sr=1-1#_


Her Blog with all the interviews occuring on MSM regarding the book. Very good resource. I watched her on MSNBC today 8-24-10:
http://ufosontherecord.com/category/blog/

Her website for her book:
http://ufosontherecord.com/



Here is her interview on Stephen Colbert 8-23-10. Pretty good and funny:
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/351555/august-23-2010/leslie-kean

More interviews:
http://www.dailygrail.com/Interviews/2010/8/Project-UFO-Book
Coast to Coast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J578y1bvJIU&feature=player_embedded


Edit:
MSNBC Dylan Ratigan interview with Leslie Kean is now posted:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Aug 24, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
On behalf of my friends here at ST, I occasionally click a Klimmer Link. I have not done any careful statistical analysis to see if my spot checking of our friend's numerous references results in a representative sample of some kind, but here is my report for what it is worth.

PhD Gerald Schroeder, the Science of GOD. If GOD at the Big Bang sent out a signal every 24 hours for 6 days, we on our end would receive these signals at Billions of year intervals, Special Relativity. We would recieve all of these signals only after 14+ Billion years. The Universe is expanding. The Bible and Science are in agreement:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/ScienceGod.aspx
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AccordingToGod.aspx

First of all, Dr Schroeder doesn't share much for free at these two sites. Just some teaser stuff to get you to buy his books. But, a little googling around and there are some internet articles with some more meat. Here is the lead in to the one that supposedly explains how you can use special relativity to time dilate those special first 6 days of creation out to 14 billion years and, according to Klimmer, also explain the cosmic microwave background.

"One of the most obvious perceived contradictions between Torah and science is the age of the universe. Is it billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? When we add up the generations of the Bible, we come to fewer than 6000 years. Whereas, data from the Hubbell telescope or from the land based telescopes in Hawaii, indicate the number at 15 billion years plus or minus 10%."

First, I'll note that Dr. Schroeder has the same shoddy command of grammar, poor spelling skills and imprecise writing style as some of Dr. Schroeder's fans (not mentioning any names here). I don't know, maybe in that 2nd sentence he meant that the scientific data are billions of years old and the Biblical data are thousands of years old, but I bet he really had in mind the age of the universe is billions of years old based on the scientific data and thousands of years old based on the Biblical data. Of course it is the Hubble telescope (not Hubbell) and if Dr. Schroeder really wanted to look sharp he would have used a hyphen between "land" and "based" as that is an adjective phrase modifying "telescope". I know Klimmer finds this grammar police stuff annoying, but I keep telling him that arguments work better at persuading audiences if the presentation has good spelling and grammar.

Of more interest is that the rest of the article did nothing more than to mention the word "relativity" three times, "Einstein" twice and "stretching of space" twice. I was looking forward to double-checking some math and looking for those subtle mistakes that are so hard to avoid when making calculations using special relativity. But, Dr. S didn't do any calculations or even write down any formulae. I can't recommend him as a reliable source.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 10:32pm PT
Here you go. From another thread on GOD here at ST:



http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=260413&tn=3120


I gave you the answer you are now asking and seeking. Yes, it will take a little time to view it but it is worth it.


Posted before:


Cosmology and the Bible are in agreement.

This video series has something for everyone.

If you are a GODless Evolutionist you will learn that Science and the Bible are now in agreement.

If you are a young Earth Creationist you will learn what the 6 days really are . . . and how is that explained and what does it mean. Very good program. I also recommend his book.


The Science of God - Dr. Gerald Schroeder Part 1 of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRxEeHFHc-Y


Also . . .


Dr.Gerald Schroeder Genesis & The Big Bang Theory (1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sicqKbFhcq8&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 24, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
Somehow I missed this interesting article earlier this summer . . .

The evidence that Mars was once very habitable (perhaps even currently) is very strong.


29 July 2010
Mars site may hold 'buried life'
By Victoria Gill
Science reporter, BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10790648
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
And more on the possibility of microbial life forms on Mars . . .


New Mars tests find possible life ingredients
By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 3, 2010; 10:04 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302919.html?hpid=topnews

Thirty-four years after NASA's Viking missions to Mars sent back results interpreted to mean there was no organic material - and consequently no life - on the planet, new research has concluded that organic material was found after all.



That is what some believe already happened on Mars. A life-detection experiment on both Viking landers gave a positive signal that something in the soil was metabolizing a food source introduced and a negative signal in the control experiment. The principle investigator of that experiment, Gilbert Levin, has argued for more than 30 years that Viking did, indeed, find life.

It was the no-organics conclusion of a subsequent Viking experiment that convinced scientists that Levin's test had detected a non-biological chemical reaction. Although many planetary scientists have remained convinced that Levin did not find life, the increasingly apparent problems with the no-organics experiment are leading some to reconsider.


I always thought Dr. Levin's experiment nailed it. His experiment was really well designed, sensitive, and accurate. Whereas the follow-up experiment was a really poor design. Dr. Levin said that the 2nd follow-up experiment was of such poor design that if a dog on Mars walked up to the Viking probe and did his business right next to it, it wouldn't have detected carbon based organics.

I think all the evidence gathering will prove Dr. Levin was correct. He will be vindicated. We knew life was on Mars and was also "living" life, not just fossilized remains, all the way back in 1976.

Interesting, that is when Apollo 20 visited the Moon and investigated the massive Mothership on the backside. After thoroughly reading Luca's book this summer, I'm convinced that CDR William Rutledge is real. He "retiredafb" (Apollo 20) and "moonwalker1966delta" (Apollo 19) both know too much that only insiders would know. I really do think Apollo 20 happened. April 1st, 2007, is when CDR William Rutledge broke the story. He knew NASA, on April 20, 2007 NASA would do a special private screening of the movie "In the Shadow of the Moon" in Long Beach, CA, honoring the 12 Apollo astronauts who stood on the Moon. This was not publically known until after the event.

http://www.intheshadowofthemoon.com/

The reality is that 14 Apollo astronauts have actually stood on the Moon. CDR Rutledge wanted his and Leonov's due credit in history, by far a more incredible mission and greater significance than perhaps any of the other Apollo missions, besides Apollo 11. He "pre-emptively" came out with the truth of Apollo 20 mission prior to NASA trying to fix false history into stone, with a documentary that attempts to do just that.

We have known we have not been alone for a long-time, whether microbial life or intelligent life, at least since 1947, if not earlier.


Edit:


Boy, I screwed up the above info bad. Sorry. Lack of memory. Geeees. The film that was shown to a select audience of NASA space techs and former NASA astronauts and special guests was called, "The Wonder of It All," by Jeffrey Roth on April 20th, 2007. It was shown/previewed to a select audience at the Newport Beach Film Festival. This was not known but to a few; those on the inside. This is the film that CDR William Rutledge pre-empted by the disclosure of Apollo 20 on April 1st, 2007. I just re-read that section of Luca's book. Boy, did I screw that up.

Here is the website for the film:
http://www.thewonderofitallfilm.com/index.html

Trailer:
http://www.thewonderofitallfilm.com/trailer.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
From the time of Roswell, we have back engineered many craft and figured out an incredible amount of the "Alien" technology. Perhaps, if the stories are true, we have even been given help by "them" to do so. This is the primary reason for the denial of UFOs/Aliens. It is to cover-up this secret, the darkside of our shadow government, and our shadow government's secret space program, and perhaps our willing cooperation with ETs.

The amount of money that is spent to race ahead of the other nations on our Earth and to be number 1, no matter what it takes, for natural resources, power and control, or other dark, immoral, and selfish reasons is staggering. Just think, 9-10-2001, Rumsfeld announced 2.3 Trillion dollars just vanished and could not be accounted for. How much of that money went right into the Military-Industrial-Spy-Intelligence-Secret Space Program Complex, never to be overseen or accounted for, not to mention how much of that money went into the private pockets of those wired into this unspoken of secret Black-Op shadow government?

Imagine what could happen if this technology was shared for the good of the people, and these monies were spent to make jobs, put people to work, help the environment with clean renewable energy resources, solve our energy needs, fix our planet, explore our Solar System, and for the advancement of science for all mankind, not just hording it for a powerful dark shadow government bent on power and control for the utility of the rich and elite. Welcome to Serfdom 21st Century style.

Project Camelot interview with Michael Schratt concerning the Black Op Aviation History of the US. This is incredible (and real):
http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_schratt/michael_schratt.html

Another great film with Michael Schratt regarding Norton AFB and the connection to ARVs (Alien Replication Vehicles):
http://www.openminds.tv/videos/?id=9



This study was financed by Laurance S. Rockefeller, and pre-ceeded the French Government COMETA report regarding UFOs.

UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS BRIEFING DOCUMENT
THE BEST AVAILABLE EVIDENCE
by
DON BERLINER
with
Marie Galbraith
Antonio Huneeus
Presented by
CUFONS, FUFOR, MUFON
December 1995

http://www.openminds.tv/wp-content/uploads/Rockefeller-Briefing-Document.pdf
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:10am PT
I like the Moon.
Way better than balloons.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:14am PT
klimmer,

you being a science teacher is downright scary....

Fritz

Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:20am PT
Sep 8, 2010 - 08:52pm PT


Klimmer self-bumped his post again.

I couldn't help myself.

I looked at the latest post in total despair.

I prayed softly: "Please dear Jesus: no more Massive Ark on the Moon posts."

Obviously, it didn't work.

Maybe I should go to church now and then.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:28am PT
http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/story/spielberg-confused-by-decrease-in-ufo-sightings
bmacd

climber
Relic Hominid
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:32am PT
i'm not buying spaceship on the moon but we are having a wave of ufo sightings in BC right now

here is a really good clip uploaded to utube aug 14/2010 shot using a canon 5d mk4 in Victoria showing objects above the ministry of finance building, likely pulling off an intergalactic heist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_pudfKDlg
Captain...or Skully

Big Wall climber
Transporter Room 2
Sep 9, 2010 - 12:41am PT
UFO's are just Alien DUI's.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 9, 2010 - 01:02am PT
so let's diddle with these theories.

i have a friend in the 9/11 truth movement who devotes quite a bit of time to arguing that the moon landings were a hoax. others argue that we really landed, but the public was shown prepared footage, some of it concocted by stanley kubrick on government contract. i think there's enough evidence to merit scrutiny.

klimmer's scenario has aliens hovering around our planet. when they said, "take me to your leader", they were accommodated. now they have the inside track with all the powerful people. for some reason, they just don't want to clue us nobodies in on it. what are they afraid of, especially with all that technology they're sitting on? maybe technology only gets you so far.

there's another explanation, and that is the paranormal. the best book i've read on this is the mothman prophecies, by a hardboiled nonfiction writer, john keel, who witnessed much of the material firsthand. i bring this up because of the spielberg citation. spielberg romanticizes the supposed alien phenomenon and makes a pretty good buck on it. why did it pay off so well? because people want aliens. they don't want to be alone in the universe. people will easily believe what they want to believe, even if it's just for the duration of a movie.

keel observes that while UFO phenomena are well documented and undeniable, they're also ephemeral and at times rather frivolous. this is in the nature of the paranormal. he said he just has the feeling that it's "of the earth", not from outer space visits.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2010 - 01:07am PT
And here is my upto date response regarding Steven Spielgerg's old comment posted from 2005 . . .

(Gee even the scientist/debunker who said "Swamp gas" later revealed he was paid to be the professional debunker and then he admitted UFOs were real)


Spielberg knows what he saw in UFO documentary
Angelia Joiner | Dec 07, 2009 |
http://www.openminds.tv/spielberg-knows-what-he-saw-in-ufo-documentary/

In a career spanning more than four decades, Spielberg has to his credit such UFO-related great films as Close Encounters of the Third Kind (1977), E.T.: The Extra Terrestrial (1982), The War of the Worlds (2005) and the mini-series Taken (2002), among many others.

Fox is now in receipt of the letter, but cannot make the comments public as of yet. Fox said he’s in touch with Spielberg’s publicist, “who would be happy to let that happen.” But the publicist said when Spielberg was asked about going public with the letter his response was, “Not at this time.” In return, Fox’s reply was, “There won’t be a better time.”

“Let’s suffice it to say, he’s an advocate of government transparency on the phenomena,” Fox concluded and he will continue to push for permission to publish the contents of the letter because he feels it’s important.



Fox has made some of the best documentaries on UFOs:

Out of the Blue

I know What I Saw
http://www.iknowwhatisawthemovie.com/trailer.html

Here you can watch it for free:
http://www.rodostube.gr/video/f2f36875ecbeaea/I-Know-What-I-Saw

Speilberg wrote a personal letter to Fox after viewing "I know what I saw" admitting his real thoughts on the matter. Even Spielberg is under pressure not to say too much publically.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2010 - 01:36am PT
Tony,

I agree with you more than you think.


A great resource is the Biblical and Hebrew scholar PhD Michael Heiser:
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/



I read his book "Facade" this summer on-line. I think he nails it and pulls it all together. It is a fictional story, based on real facts and evidences that are known. He brings it all together for many to get it all at once in a very unique way. A very good and exciting read.

http://www.facadethebook.com/

I highly recommend it to anyone, but especially people of faith. Christians who know their Bible will understand it and get it. Powerful stuff.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 9, 2010 - 01:51am PT
ephemeral and at times rather frivolous. this is in the nature of the paranormal

...or is it the nature of bull sh#t?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 9, 2010 - 01:51am PT
I encourage everyone to read those Klimmer links. They tell a very consistent story!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Sep 9, 2010 - 06:40am PT
People who ridicule this subject have not done their homework.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2010 - 09:51am PT
just curious: didn't you say sometime ago here that Obama was supposed to announce Fed acknowledgement of existence of ufos? Did I miss it?


rrider,

Yep.

But as the UFO public spokesman for the UK government said, disclosure will happen (it is happening) but not with a capital "D" but a lowercase "d."

It is happening right now. People are talking about it. MSM is talking about it or now allowing it to be talked about.

I think we'll get to the point, "Yea, they are here. They have been here throughout history. What can we do about it? Nothing. So what of it? Big whoop."

I'm pretty sure that is how Uncle Sam would like us to eventually respond. Thing is, Uncle Sam forgot about the lying, the ridicule, and the cover-up for over 60 years. That isn't gonna be easy to get over. The World is not gonna forget this.

This knowledge and technology could have been utilized by the World, ages ago, for the better of all mankind. But they have hid it for dark reasons of power and control. That is unforgiveable.

Read, "The Facade."


Edit:

The only real way out of this for the US, or the shadow government of the US, is to come clean, ask forgiveness, and share the technology for a better clean renewable energy World right now, and help planet Earth out of our dire straights.

I just don't see them "manning up" to do that. I don't think they have the heart or courage to do that. Their cold dead hearts won't allow it. They are manipulated by the "Father of Lies" and they can't see past their selfish dark hearts.



Edit:

Just wanted to add this link here that I found . . .


Astronauts spill the beans concerning aliens, and their technology
March 29, 2009, 5:15 pm
http://godssecret.wordpress.com/2009/03/29/astronauts-spill-the-beans-concerning-aliens-and-their-technology/


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2010 - 12:17am PT
The following is a full transcription from French to English for the COMETA Report . . .
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_cometareport01.htm




Full Transcription of Cometa Report

UFOs and Defense:

What Should We Prepare For?
-An independent report on UFOs written by the French association COMETA.

This report details the results of a study by the Institute of Higher Studies for National Defence.-

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_cometareport01a.htm#What%20Should%20We%20Prepare%20For

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
Watch the short film . . .


Fiber Optics and Alien Reproduction Vehicles (ARVs):
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects105.htm
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 12, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
Pate - I didn't say what the consistent story is!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Sep 12, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
I am not making any claims. I am just saying do your homework.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2010 - 02:15am PT
Ok, brush up on your Italian.

Luca Scantamburlo brings Apollo 20 to Italian TV . . .

Mistero Il mistero dell'apollo 20 pt 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPfdhL2u6aM&feature=player_embedded

Mistero Il mistero dell'apollo 20 pt 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTN0932GjWg&feature=player_embedded






Cool.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2010 - 02:34am PT
Finally got around to flipping the Mothership Red-Blue 3D image over so that it is correct. Looks really good.

Keep in mind this thing is 5km long and almost 1km wide.







Borrow the glasses from your kids!
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 13, 2010 - 10:59am PT
well, that settles it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 13, 2010 - 11:51am PT
Finally got around to flipping the Mothership Red-Blue 3D image over so that it is correct. Looks really good.

Looks really good? Pulleeeze! I guess I better head down to the optometrist's.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 13, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
hey Klimmer,

Just a few questions...

a.) Do you think what you are doing is Science? yes/no

b.) Do you think its important to be a skeptic? yes/no




Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 13, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
This is supposed to be fun. If it's not fun, drop out.

Amen! And way better than talking about how many pigs to take up the Captain.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2010 - 06:28pm PT


hey Klimmer,

Just a few questions...

a.) Do you think what you are doing is Science? yes/no

b.) Do you think its important to be a skeptic? yes/no



Pate,

I really doubt you want an answer, you just want a target to ridicule. That is all you do. No substance just constant mean ridicule.

But let's just say this once, you were asking honestly, I doubt it, but let's just say.


a.) Do you think what you are doing is Science? yes/no

It is never just a yes/no answer. Depends.

Obviously this is a vital topic to mankind. We want to know are we alone or not? Why do you think we spend billions on SETI, and looking for possible microbial life, and the signs of life off Earth? So for you to sit back and say that making observations of the natural world around us, asking questions, and coming up with possible hypotheses is foolish,and then putting these hypotheses to the test is silly, then you don't understand science, and you must not have a curious bone in your body. Apparently, you know it all already.

Recall, there are several types of scientific pursuits: Pure Science (done simply for knowledge), Applied Science (taking scientific discoveries and doing something wonderful with it that make our lives better), then you also have Forensic Science. There is a little bit of each in answering the UFO/ET question. We want to know. We sure could use the technology. And if we are being lied to and the truth and the hard factual data is purposefully being kept from us, we want to know that also. The evidence is overwhelming that there are "gatekeepers" within governments such as our own and they do not want the rest of the World to know the truth for selfish and corrupt reasons.

Well, we are gonna bust down the door anyway. Too bad.



b.) Do you think its important to be a skeptic? yes/no

Yes, that is why I do not buy all the Apollo 20 disclosure story. I find it very fascinating though. I know there are purposeful untruths and seeds of doubt sown in to make it difficult. The truth is cloaked and wrapped in a cover of doubt and purposeful darkness. Like it has been stated before, disclosure is happening with a little "d" not a big "D." I think it can be figured out though. Many clues were spread through this story and how it came about. I have read Luca's book in detail, and many more things have been revealed and more clues. I find it very interesting and yes, in a bent kind of way, fun.

It would be nice to have someone at ST who has read the book also and we could compare notes. I have some interesting insights into this forensic science game that I think are possible. "Retiredafb" and "Moonwalker1966delta" gave us many cloaked clues, and told us a lot of the truth. They couldn't say it all. They did not want to jeopardize those who could be hurt or worse. They want the truth out, and to be given due credit, but without anyone dying to do so.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
By the way, regarding the Red/Blue stereo image made from the original B&W images from Apollo 15 overfly . . . think. They kept taking lots of images of this thing. There are many official images of it in the NASA archive.

If it was just a massive Moon crater and berm of Lunar regolith and a play of sunlight why keep taking images of it and purposefully overflying it? They have gone out of their way to do so.

Also, the original stereo pair that was taken, and now taking those same images and turning them into a Red/Blue perfectly registered 3D image, forever proves that it is not a massive Moon crater and or a berm of Lunar regolith. The nose is sticking up far above the surface of the Moon and sunlight is shining below and past the nose. You can not make this up. This massive thing, parts of it are sticking far above the surface of the Moon. The original images we have seen over and over. Amazingly, we have a record of images they have not tried to manipulate and erase the evidence.

We can clearly see the shape. We know what it looks like. No massive Moon rock is gonna do this. I have talked about that before. A massive asteroid of this size would vaporize as it escavated a massive crater in the Moon miles in diameter. It would not come and settle on the Moon gently.

Any image of this thing that attempts to flatten it, and make the 3D effect go away, and pixelate it and blend it into the Moonscape is a cover-up. And yes, there are those images out there.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 13, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
There are many official images of it in the NASA archive.
Some cover-up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2010 - 07:18pm PT
Any image of this thing that attempts to flatten it, and make the 3D effect go away, and pixelate it and blend it into the Moonscape is a cover-up. And yes, there are those images out there.

Yes, they do cover it up. "Retiredafb" posted a short film showing this, and how they tried to pixelate out or set the seam of the images right on this massive craft to obscure it. Several in NASA have come out and have stated for the record (The Disclosure Project) that they have witnessed, and they know individuals who it was there job to do just that, and have been involved in airbrushing out "anomalies" on the Moon.

See, real science doesn't cheat. Doesn't try to cover-up. Real science doesn't try to lie.

Now they can do it digitally. Wow, how much easier is that, and not so messy!

That my friend is a cover-up.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 13, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
thing is, klim, we got you tellin' us a big spaceship crashed on the moon, discovered by "apollo 20", and then we got the moon hoax people telling us people never went to the moon, the van allen belt woulda killed 'em. who to believe?

my friend the moon hoax guy has a presentation he says is composed entirely of NASA-originated material. the one which catches my eye is the one with the variable shadows. the astronauts are moving towards and away from the camera and the length of their shadows increases and decreases accordingly, indicating that the source of light is not the sun but a big klieg light 30 feet behind the camera. he's a nice old fellow, very passionate about getting to the truth, collaborating with a lot of people, wouldn't try to hoax it himself. however, there are rules of evidence in court for a reason. evidence can be tampered with, concocted. internet postings don't constitute evidence. sworn testimony by people willing to stand for its genuineness is what cuts it.

all i see on the disclosure project website are some pictures of lights in the sky and some skriks of sound, supposedly the best an "advanced" ET can come up with in response to the earthling "protocols". i see these folks are based out at joshua tree, the mecca for UFO cultists for decades. please tell me something that'll make it more believable.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 13, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
I particularly enjoy that they had to 'fake' the Apollo moon flights nine times, including six landings and one near-disaster. Not to mention a whole lot of other events and infrastructure, involving (literally) millions of people and billions of dollars. You'd think that one or two flights would be enough, and the rigging budget must have been ginormous.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 13, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
"I particularly enjoy that they had to 'fake' the Apollo moon flights nine times, including six landings and one near-disaster. Not to mention a whole lot of other events and infrastructure, involving (literally) millions of people and billions of dollars. You'd think that one or two flights would be enough, and the rigging budget must have been ginormous."

Klimmer's answer would be that it was (40 years ago) practice for the 9/11 conspiracy that he believes took place.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:15am PT
I'm still waiting for the Disclosures I've been promised are going to occur imminently
apparently while imminent, they aren't happening anytime soon

while I wait, I will entertain myself with other oddities of curiosity and leave these to our friend klimmer, who apparently finds them compelling
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 14, 2010 - 01:24am PT
Maybe they're keeping Obama's birth certificate on the far side of the moon, notwithstanding the one the authorities in Hawaii obstinately insist is genuine.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2010 - 08:57am PT
Rokjox,

Let's go to ASU in Tempe. I have a few colleagues who would be interested also.

They give tours to the public. Here is a pretty good virtual tour.

http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/EPO/Tours/tours.php

They bring in all the data and imagery. No better way to get help in how to use the images and what software they are using to bring it all together. Modern remote sensing images are huge files and usually dedicated software to bring it in and began to analyze and interpret.

I would love to go, get a tour, get help, and get the imagery and software needed.

The LRO has imaged the region we are interested in. It shows in the layers and is outlined multiple times.


I took a bunch of good screen shots using the LROC WMS Image Map tool and went through all the layers they have included plus overlays showing LRO coverage. I will post them later when I can upload them to photobucket.

I have jury duty today. I do not like the thought of standing in judgement of another human being. So I wear my most appropriate political t-shirt just for the occasion that is guaranteed to get me thrown out.

They are always trying to hold down the man. lol.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2010 - 09:25am PT
Here are 2 images using the LROC WMS Image Map:

Layers shown are "Lunar Orbiter Mosaic" and "LROC WACs Commissioning"



Layers shown are "Lunar Orbiter Mosaic" and "LROC WACs Primary Mission"



The object or "Mothership" is visible just above "Izsak D" (the overlapping craters).







Edit:


Wow! Just checked to see where the LROC was at this moment, and it will be coming into the region of interest soon. Also it is in daylight.

They must have countless images of this region now in all lighting conditions: straight overhead, oblique from both sides. I would imagine there are countless images to use for 3D viewing also. I think it is just a matter of asking, and then asking for all of it. Can they doctor images in real time? I don't think so. If the system takes an image and you can get immediate access to it, how can they alter it?

That is the crux. Get the image as soon as possible or shortly after it is actually taken. I wonder if that is possible?



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
Well, got released from jury duty.


:-))





Do we finally know the real identity of CDR William Rutledge?


Got this off of the Italian TV program on Apollo 20 . . .

BRIGADIER GENERAL JOHN W. "BILL" RUTLEDGE
Retired Feb. 1, 1999.
http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7003


Brig. Gen. John W. "Bill" Rutledge is assistant chief of staff for operations, Headquarters Allied Air Forces Northwestern Europe, NATO, Royal Air Force High Wycombe, England. AIRNORTHWEST is a NATO principal subordinate headquarters collocated with Headquarters Allied Forces Northwestern Europe and with Royal Air Force Strike Command. He is the senior U.S. officer within the headquarters and is responsible for directing and conducting the work of the internationally-staffed Operations Division. He is also the deputy commander for NATO affairs, Headquarters 3rd Air Force, Royal Air Force Mildenhall, England.

The general is a distinguished graduate of the University of Kentucky's Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps program. He was commissioned in 1969 and has served in a variety of operational and staff assignments in Europe, the Pacific and the continental United States. He has commanded an F-15 squadron, a tactical group, a provisional composite wing, a combined force air component and the United States' only high-altitude reconnaissance wing. He has served on the staffs of Headquarters North American Aerospace Defense Command, Headquarters U.S. Air Force, Headquarters U.S. European Command and the National Imagery and Mapping Agency. He is a command pilot with more than 2,800 flying hours, mostly in fighter aircraft.


Note: according to his official USAF biography he would have been USAF Captain John W. "Bill" Rutledge in 1976.


Assignments: in 1976 period of time . . .

5. July 1974 - December 1974, student, F-4 upgrade, 21st Tactical Fighter Training Squadron, George Air Force Base, Calif.
6. January 1975 - January 1976, F-4E fighter pilot and flight examiner, 335th Tactical Fighter Squadron, Seymour Johnson Air Force Base, N.C.
7. May 1976 - May 1977, F-4E fighter pilot and wing safety officer, 51st Composite Wing (Tactical), Osan Air Base, South Korea


Who would miss him stationed in Korea? Wouldn't have been hard to have him go to the Moon during this time. Apollo 20 (according to the story), launched in August of 1976.


Also, his later assignments: plenty of foreign assignments and also this . . .

19. September 1995 - September 1996, deputy director, Central Imagery Office, Vienna, Va.
20. October 1996 - July 1997, director, Customer Support Office, National Imagery and Mapping Agency, Fairfax, Va.


Interesting . . .


Very, very interesting.



Is this "RetiredAFB" ????? I don't know.



Retiredafb gave the interview with Luca in April of 2007. At the time he said he was 76 years old. So, now in 2010, he would be 80. In 1976 he would have been 45 years of age. The range of ages for Apollo astronauts who walked on the Moon is from 36 to 47 years of age. So he would be right in there at the correct age.

If John W. "Bill" Rutledge is indeed = "retiredafb," then he would have been age 69 in 1999 at his retirement.




So who is this guy? Is it William Rutledge or Alexey Leonov?




Alexey Leonov:

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 14, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
I suspect if you "view source" for the web page you'd get the image identification....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
Ed,

Alexey was my best guess at the time. I'm not sure now. Maybe it is William Rutledge? In many ways their faces look similiar. Same long bridged nose type.

I do not know. I will have to look over everything carefully and ponder it all.

Maybe you were responding to Rokjox?



Here is a comment from retiredafb's site at revver by Luca:




http://revver.com/u/retiredafb/

Kind joanscutter,
thanks for your comments and point of view. It is obvious that your way of analysis is under the prime target of comprehension and deep understanding. Only one thing:
the footage inside the presumed LM-15, the socalled Phoenix, on the lunar surface, if authentic - in spite of the missing legs of the astronaut, a very strong contradiction, but we have to remember we are watching a transfer into a digital video from an analogic footage - is not showing Alexei Leonov, but William Rutledge, shot by Leonov himself in front of him. Look the moving shadows on the EBE Mona Lisa. There is someone who is using the camera in front of Rutledge, the man you can see. Not only his face features say this: I had the confirmation of that coming from the Apollo 19 CDR.
And as the matter of fact, there is a former US high-ranking officer who looks like him.. The bio data are not coherent with the data provided by "retiredafb", but if he is him indeed, we can understand why some bio data are not correct. This story is too much embarassing for such a high decorated officer. Please, do your homework as you have been doing... Moreover, I can say - and I have already done it to a national Italian television - that privately Leonov has been informed years ago of this controversial story... up to now only silence from him. At least in public. If there are kernels of thuth, it does make sense: he is not allowed to speak out... and a public silence, it can be considered as a "no comment" in my opinion.
Luca Scantamburlo
http://www.angelismarriti.it

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 14, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
Hey diddle diddle, the cat and the fiddle,
The cow jumped over the moon.
The little dog laughed to see such fun
And the dish ran away with the spoon!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 14, 2010 - 11:33pm PT
The identity of "moonwalker1966delta" isn't that hard to figure out if you accept that he is telling the truth:

AN INTERVIEW WITH APOLLO 19 COMMANDER
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/Apollo19CDR-interview.htm

"About my nickname I can say that it represents in only 3 words my inner personal universe and all I have been attracted to. Moonwalker because I walked on the moon. 1966 because during Gemini 10 from 18 to 21 of July 1966 I operated the first computer and delta because it usually indicates a technology resulting from alien technology or generally indicating an alien interference."




Edit:

http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/young.html

NASA EXPERIENCE: In September 1962, Young was selected as an astronaut. He is the first person to fly in space six times from earth, and seven times counting his lunar liftoff. The first flight was with Gus Grissom in Gemini 3, the first manned Gemini mission, on March 23, 1965. This was a complete end-to-end test of the Gemini spacecraft, during which Gus accomplished the first manual change of orbit altitude and plane and the first lifting reentry, and Young operated the first computer on a manned spacecraft. On Gemini 10, July 18-21, 1966, Young, as Commander, and Mike Collins, as Pilot, completed a dual rendezvous with two separate Agena target vehicles. While Young flew close formation on the second Agena, Mike Collins did an extravehicular transfer to retrieve a micro meteorite detector from that Agena.




So from that we can assume only 12 men have officially walked on the Moon and can call themselves "Moonwalkers" (by the way that is an official nickname they give themselves, read the book "Riding Rockets: The Outrageous Tales of a Space Shuttle Astronaut, by Astronaut Mike Mullane).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apollo_astronauts

Probably needs to be USAF. Maybe, or maybe not.

He has Gemini experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gemini

That narrows the field to:

John W. Young (USN)

David R. Scott (USAF)



Then he says in the interview with Luca . . .

"5) L.S. Can you tell me when and where - if it happened - did you meet William Rutledge for the first and the last time?

moonwalker1966delta: The first time I met William was in 1974 at JSP where I have been selected as chief of astronauts. I was training for Apollo 19 and when I knew the names of Apollo 20 crew I ask to meet him and I have been very impressed about his knowledge of alien technology we are working about at that time. The last time has been in San Antonio in 1993."


So he was chief of astronauts in 1974 at JSP.

HHhhhhhmmmmmmmm.



Also, in the interview with Luca he says . . .

"4) L.S. Have you ever met Leona Marietta Snyder, Apollo 20 CSP?

moonwalker1966delta: Yes I met Leona Snyder and William 2 months after Apollo 20 reentry during a secret conference at KSC and again in 1993 at a restaurant in San Antonio with Leonov and David Scott."



So it would seem that it can not be David Scott.


That only leaves John Young (USN)



Was John Young Chief of Astronauts in 1974 at JSP?
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/young.html

"In January 1973, Young was made Chief of the Space Shuttle Branch of the Astronaut Office, providing operational and engineering astronaut support for the design and development of the Space Shuttle. In January 1974, he was selected to be Chief of the Astronaut Office, with responsibility for the coordination, scheduling, and control of activities of the astronauts. Young served as Chief of the Astronaut Office until May 1987."



In his book, Luca Scantamburlo knows the identity of "Moonwalker1966delta" but was asked not to disclose this information at this time.


Well, if the information is correct and not a lie then the identity of the CDR for Apollo 19 "Moonwalker1966delta," is none other than John Young.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Young_(astronaut);





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/John_W._Young_on_the_Moon.jpg

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 15, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
hmm--seems to be real important for some reason to figure out whether some guy in question is russian or american. not really following this, but either way, he'd be terrestial.

howdy, ed! are you taking any of this seriously? just curious ...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 15, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Boulder Creek CA
Sep 15, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
I have worked professionally with John Young and with some of his closest colleagues at JSC. I can tell you that he is one of the most impressive individuals I've ever met.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
Truth mixed with lies is an age old way of disclosing and at the same time hiding under cover. You can bake your cake and eat it too.

When everyone knows one day, they (those now disclosing) can look back and say, "See, we tried to tell you but you didn't believe us." They cover their butts (CYA). At the same time they can now say "It is hogwash, bull-crap." It gives them cover they can then hide under.

Yes, some of it is bull-crap, but then some of it isn't. Some of it is the truth. You have to ferrit it out.

We are experiencing disclosure in the 21st century. How to get the word out without people running through the streets screaming, "They are here. We're all gonna die!" ala War of the Worlds.

In Richard Hoagland's and Mike Bara's book, Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, he talks about this. As well he talks about "The White Hats" vs. "The Black Hats" within these government agencies of our Federal Government. The White Hats want disclosure and want the World to know the truth, and give this technology away for the better of mankind. The Black Hats do not want to do that. They want to know and hord the truth and the technology for themselves. Knowledge is power and they want it.

I see CDR William Rutledge ("retiredafb"), who is quite possibly Brigadier General John W. "Bill" Rutledge, and CDR "moonwalker1966delta", who is more than likely Astronaut John Young, as White Hats. They are now retired. They are now in their 80s. They have lived wonderful adventure filled lives, served their countries honorably, towed the line, had incredible experiences we can only dream about, and probably are looking at the other side of eternity, and knowing they will face their maker soon, what are they going to do to make things right? Tell the truth.

Tell the truth and let the World know. Like CDR William Rutledge said, this discovery belongs to all of us, to all humanity. This discovery and revelation changes everything: science, technology, the concept of resources, society, who we are, and our ideas about GOD and religion. This is big, big news. We will not be the same.

I say read your Bible and the Book of Enoch, and you will know what this means. Disclosure is discussed in The Good Book. It is for our time, our dispensation. Even Jesus talked about how this would happen in the last days (Mark 13). "As in the days of Noah . . ." (Matthew 24:37)

Aliens In The Bible?
http://www.angelfire.com/space2/noah/



This is life changing. I think that it can be life changing for the good. Maybe we can now grow-up and stop killing each other, and work for the betterment of mankind. There are Worlds to explore . . .


I would also say hold onto GOD's hand tightly. Don't let go.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2010 - 06:43pm PT

I have worked professionally with John Young and with some of his colleagues at JSC. I can tell you that he is one of the most impressive individuals I've ever met.


http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-phoenix/nbc-s-the-event-the-secret-even-the-president-does-not-know


Tom,

Thanks for posting that.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 15, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
you talking about the guy with the nice shiny hat?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
Rokjox,

A good thing to do would be to post the actual image and list the actual website where all the "official" images of this anomaly from all the Apollo NASA missions can be found. Still images and possible video. There are many!

Backside Moon "Mothership" Anomaly listed by:

Official Apollo Mission in numerical order

Images to include: Vertical and oblique

Stereograms?

Videos?




Then list the images and videos that have been posted that are supposively taken by "Apollo 20":





This really needs to be done:

Then a systematic comparison of the best Official Apollo images of the anomaly to the best images from the "Apollo 20" mission.

Compare craters, rocks, the ship, crater impacts to the ship etc. etc. All of this can be done proportionally. If the best images from Apollo 20 are real, than the proportionalities from all of theses identifyable structures that can be seen in all images will match, and match perfectly, including angle measurements. This is how you do photogrammetry. A detailed comparison needs to be made. If it all checks out, than this is proof that the best of the Apollo 20 images are not fakes. You cannot make a bogus scaled model or images that fit perfectly with the real Apollo images taken if they are fake. Too many ways to cross-compare between both.

This takes time but it can be done. It is really the only way to validate the best Apollo 20 images to the Official Apollo images of said anomaly.




Then of course also have the latest, greatest resolution images of the anomaly from the LROC, in all lighting conditions, not just with the sun straight overhead at the zenith. We need shadow detail. We need high resolution.


A project to work on.


lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 16, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
Klimmer

You have two days left, are you ready, assuming you have been doing your homework or have you been out to lunch?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 05:58pm PT

You have two days left, are you ready, assuming you have been doing your homework or have you been out to lunch?

Lost,

Apparently I haven't been doing my homework and I've been out to lunch, because I have no clue what you are talking about.

Spill the beans.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 16, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
09.18.2010
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 16, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
InOMN

Google it first and will give you web sites to go to and participate.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 16, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
The trane reck continues. Though it doesn't have many passengers, it sure has a lot of freight.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
Lost,

http://journeytothestars.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/international-observe-the-moon-night-18-september-2010/

http://observethemoonnight.org/


Cool. Thanks. I'll be watching. I'll take out my telescope and participate. Fun.


Maybe something will happen????????????????


(Pate, it was meant as a joke)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 06:51pm PT
The Event:

http://www.nbc.com/the-event/

http://www.nbc.com/the-event/video/the-attack-is-already-underway/1243476


http://www.nbc.com/the-event/video/the-event-full-length-trailer/1228237/?__cid=thefilter


Looks good. Few TV series get me hooked, this one looks like it could.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 16, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
Klimmer,

Just felt sorry for you but but it is a challenge for you. Best one is to go to http://www.moonzoo.org/moonometer, Hit left hand side: "How to take part" log in, it is free. In short: when Sat comes look up [Moon],
then get online and contribute to science.

No body out there looking at us. If their were they would be laughing at us.

Mad

Social climber
Sep 16, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
Let's dig it out of it's moon bed and fire the thing up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
Lost,

No need to feel sorry for me.

The truth is very hard to take. I know. It is hard to swallow.

We will all know one day.

There are truths in science we have not learned as of yet. It will blow our minds to learn what we do not know. I'm ready for that day. It will be a revolution.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
My students left at 2:14pm

Pate, you are pate-thetic.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 16, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
Klimmer,

Perhaps what is confusing you is the concept of "belief" for the truth. Science is not a matter of belief, but of evidence. In everyday life all people hold "beliefs", but this is not a good word to apply to our scientific understanding of nature.

Also, try to ignore the misinformation, the disinformation, and the careless errors that permeate “anti-government” or “conspiracy theory” websites. Use your powers of critical thinking!

Hope that this obsession does not turn into insanity. Life is here and that is real and maybe there is out there. Where? We do not know: there is no proof just a belief. But that does not stop us from searching.

One thing I know that is the true and not fake is www.wwe.com
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 17, 2010 - 01:12am PT
a note for you, lostinshanghai, and in defense of klimmer, with whom i don't agree on much, but have some common ground, along with rokjox.

it isn't obsession, and you are not using your powers of critical thinking. i part company with these guys on the alien stuff, but not on 9/11 truth, which is buoyed by a massive amount of evidence, physical and behavioral, indicating the event was perpetrated by government insiders in league with an international controlling, yes, conspiracy. as we say in the movement, it isn't a theory if it can be proven, and these things can all be proven by means of the forensics used in ordinary criminal proceedings.

we've hashed this out on a couple threads on ST. it gets pretty tiring, but those of us who have figured it out are entertained, in a strange way, by the lack of savvy by those who haven't. to put it simply, you just haven't looked at all the things we have. when you find yourself in the truth movement, you meet a lot of others who come at it from different directions, and often very different politics, but arrive at the same conclusions based on disturbing, difficult, but basically incontrovertible evidence.

i don't mind mentioning that i've tangled with our illustrious largo on this subject. it seems now that not just one but both of his process theology professors from claremont school of theology--dr. david ray griffin and dr. john cobb--have "gone south", to use largo's expression, in the 9/11 truth movement. JL will admit that both are extraordinarily smart academics. i suggest that the reason these two sharp guys have "gone south" is that they've both figured out what the truth is. griffin is a leader in this field, having been published in a half dozen books on the subject in the last six years.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2010 - 01:47am PT
TB,

We do agree on 9-11.

But you will come to realize someday that the biggest secret they have tried to hide and tried to never admit to, and have been very successful at doing so, but the secret is now breaking down all over the Earth (thank GOD), makes child's play of pulling off 9-11-01.

What secret has a greater revolutionary potential for change? The truth of 9-11, or the fact that we are not alone and governments around the World for 60 years or more, especially the US Governement has been lying their butts off the whole time and have tried desperately to hide it?

False-flags have happened throughout history, we know this evil happens. Not really a surprise any more. Unbelievable evil, but not a surprise.

But the reality of UFOs/ETs/ and back engineered technology that holds the promise of clean unlimited energy is revolutionary and changes our history, and changes our future for all mankind in very profound ways.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2010 - 09:47am PT
Everyone has a part to play.

I'm clearly in the truth, disclosure, know who thy are but use their new technology wisely to help us solve our clean renewable energy needs, expand our understanding of science, explore our Solar System, and have incredible access to abundant resources in the Asteroid Belt, camp.


Some others have this role to play and play it well they do . . .


UFODC-Obama adviser says documented UFO/ET landings on U.S. Capitol "could destabilize society"

http://www.examiner.com/exopolitics-in-seattle/ufodc-obama-adviser-says-documented-ufo-et-landings-on-u-s-capitol-could-destabilize-society


1. 1953 CIA Robertson Panel – The CIA 1953 Robertson Panel imposed a virtual truth embargo on the UFFO/ET presence, prohibiting public discourse on UFO/ET in government, media, academia, education, science and mandating ridicule and social oppression of UFO/ET proponents. One source states, “The extremely high numbers of UFO reports in 1952 disturbed both the Air Force and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Both groups felt that an enemy nation could deliberately flood the U.S. with false UFO reports, causing mass panic and allowing them to launch a sneak attack. On September 24, 1952, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI) issued a memorandum to Walter B. Smith, the CIA's director. The memo stated that ‘the flying saucer situation . . . have national security implications . . . [in] the public concern with the phenomena . . . lies the potential for he touching-off of mass hysteria and panic’.”




REPORT OF SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY PANEL ON UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS CONVENED BY OFFICE OF SCIENTIFIC INTELLIGENCE, CIA January 14 - 18, 1953
(The Durant report of the Robertson Panel proceedings)

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/robert.htm





I would rather be in the truth and disclosure camp. Didn't your Mamas tell you all about the life lesson of telling the truth? The Golden Rule? Always better to tell the truth no matter what. Share the knowledge and technology.

The ones who want to keep this secret do so for selfish, evil, dark, and greedy reasons.

It can be better and it should be better. What would Jesus do?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 17, 2010 - 09:48am PT
i have problems with that scenario, klim, on a number of counts. for one, we don't get any alien culture along with the alleged technology. if they were leading our leaders around by the nose, strange alien culture would be leaking through. i don't see anything on earth except what's home-grown. strange perhaps, but not alien.

a colleague of mine in grad school--folklore and mythology--spent a lot of time with the josh UFO people. they all seemed to gravitate to the place and they were all growing old together. i'm sure they die and get replenished, but i don't think they're going anywhere. always, dancing around the edges of things they can't get a handle on. at least in 9/11 truth there is very hard evidence--you just can't get a handle on those in power to do anything about it.

as i've told you before, i do recognize that certain phenomena are well-witnessed and credible, but i think it's best approached from the point of view of the paranormal, and i recommend john keel's book to you again. i noticed that hardcore scientist ed hartouni lurking around this thread. perhaps he's finding some of it credible as well.

as far as your moon ark goes--i have developed a habit of keeping an open mind. but we'll probably both be dead before the truth comes out on either that or 9/11. you can, however, read the truth about guy fawkes, and even operation northwoods.

"time is the enemy of justice, but often it is the friend of truth." -- donald h. wolfe

there is a dichotomy among our species of the controlled and the controllers. i'd be disappointed at aliens who had the technology and sophistication to make it all the way over here and then deal with us as sneakily and ineffectively as they seem to do in your scenario. we hoi polloi aren't that much to be afraid of, really. why not just come out with it?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:32am PT
That link to the examiner story *is* interesting klimmer. The UFO photographer, Wilber "Will" Allen, sounds very credible to me.

"Mr. Allen believes that his photographs, which are forensic in quality, document that the same intelligent hyperdimensional civilization was behind the July 16, 1952 and the July 16, 2002 flyovers of the U.S. Capitol. These UFO/ET flyovers are continuing into the present. Mr. Allen states that the civilization communicating with him and directing his photographic documentation of their hypervelocity landings on the U.S. Capitol are “grey and human-hybrid.”
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 17, 2010 - 11:52am PT
re: the examiner article

"destabilize society"--hahahahaha. what society on earth is worth keeping "stable"?

lookit this way. either the morons in power are obsessed with their UFO masters or they're just obsessed with hanging onto their power at all costs. either way, they do one piss-poor job of running the world. all the threads on ST and every other blog forum are aghast at the things no one can do anything about, except those in power.

if i believed in god, i'd say, "let go, let god". but since god is, ergo, doing one piss poor job him, her or itself, one can only say, "let go, let the truth out, don't worry, be happy." get over the patronizing, trust-me, national security kick. you're not up to it. you're not the right stuff.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
This was posted elsewhere, but it probably will mean more here. I think it flew over most in the other thread.

Now we just have to convince those in power to let it happen. I'm not sure they can. Stone cold dead hearts are hard to melt and get the truth into . . . It doesn't have to be this way. It could be better for everyone, but I don't think their lust for power, control, and wealth will not allow it.


From the other thread:


We have definite global problems that we have certainly induced. They are solvable if we have the fortitude and the political will to solve them.

We have the technology and knowledge to do it. We have solutions. We have a clean renewable energy resource, a massive Fusion reactor safely 93 million miles away, providing us (for the most part) limitless clean Solar energy aplenty.

We have abundant natural resources galore that we could safely tap into within our Solar neighborhood, if we just had the fortitude and the will to do it. What is holding us back?

The greed and power of a few.








TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 17, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 17, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
We all do know that there is no "Dark Side of the Moon," right?

There is a farside and a nearside. The Moon is in geosyncronous orbit with the Earth. The Moon rotates on its axis once every revolution or orbit around Earth, therefore, we see only one side of the Moon as a result. All sides of the Moon get illuminated by the Sun.


Now I know Pink Floyd's all-time classic Album would not have the same allure if it was named "Far Side of the Moon." Just wouldn't sound right. Wouldn't have the same mystique.

Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon Documentary
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v232601GZem9Hxb


I think PFs classic album should be re-released in Dolby 5.1 Surroundsound DVD or Blue Ray, and it should have a whole new imagery and video track of Apollo 20, the Mothership on the farside of the Moon, and Mona Lisa. This would be an alltime best seller again and again (didn't darkside already break record after record for album sales or something?). Very cool idea.

I think I'll phone up David Gilmore and Roger Waters right now and let them know what I think. This could bring them back together again to tour. Well, ok, that would be a miracle and I know most of you do not believe in miracles. However, it is a nice thought.


Looking forward to seeing Roger Waters in LA.


Edit:

By the way, the cartoon above is too funny. ;-)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Sep 18, 2010 - 01:04am PT
I'm not finding anything credible here, TB, it helps me take the pulse of a segment of modern US culture

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 19, 2010 - 11:28am PT
thanks, ed.

klim, let's talk about your photo. it looks suspiciously made in hollywood. cool bridge up there. can't you just see han solo and chewbacca hunkering down and taking off? cool ports arranged in two's so you can't argue that they're craters. that's the only reason they were put there.

"portholes coming, two by two." that's so all the animals can get in and out in pairs. damn, cute.

smart aliens would have built a much more sophisticated ark. this is an h.g. wells klunker. it has hoax written all over it.

klim, where do you fit into the following scenarios?

1. those who think we are all controlled by aliens who have our leaders pretty much under their control.

2. those who think there is some kind of negotiable relationship between our leaders and aliens. our leaders get technotidbits, which they use to control us, but then they have to make concessions, maybe send kids (not their own, of course) for scientific experiments. aliens seem to crave specimens. they used to just swoosh down and pick us off, but then the air force got involved, so now they have to bargain. i guess they never developed the technology to zap a pesky airplane. amazing that they could have made it all the way here from alpha centauri.

3. those who believe aliens represent a higher plane of consciousness and we'll have more and more contact with them as we become refined and "good enough". there are lots of #3 people in the truth movement, graduated from their new age academies, on their way to The Next Big Thing. they love crop circles. they think they're a manifestation of this higher consciousness. looking at some of the crop circle art, i'm inclined to think it comes from the needlepoint department at michael's.

4. the ones who've had flying saucer rides, had their bodies experimented on, perhaps subjected to indignities, perhaps befriending the alleged aliens. they walk among us and live in a different universe. john keel reports on a few cases. you can meet some by knocking on doors around joshua tree.

until you get your flying saucer ride, klim, i see you trying to work a combination of #2 and #3, trying to have your cake and eat it too. lookit, either these sumbitches are weasley, controlling, unscrupulous liars, manipulating a cabal of cynical, corrupt world leaders, or they are cosmic angels, here to introduce us to TNBT. you can't have it both ways.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
People are obsessive about holding onto a comfortable view of reality even in the face of abundant evidence that their comfortable view is probably wrong or at least dramatically incomplete. You don't have to look very far to learn that reality outside our relatively comfortable little bubble is not accommodating for little biological critters like us. Climbers, of all people, should be understanding of this as we nibble on the edges of survivable environments in our sport. This thread is interesting as an illustration of how we have very much to learn; and yet how one of the major barriers to learning is people who don't recognize the limits of their knowledge, expending their energy ridiculing the attempts of others to learn.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2010 - 09:39am PT

klim, where do you fit into the following scenarios?

1. those who think we are all controlled by aliens who have our leaders pretty much under their control.

2. those who think there is some kind of negotiable relationship between our leaders and aliens. our leaders get technotidbits, which they use to control us, but then they have to make concessions, maybe send kids (not their own, of course) for scientific experiments. aliens seem to crave specimens. they used to just swoosh down and pick us off, but then the air force got involved, so now they have to bargain. i guess they never developed the technology to zap a pesky airplane. amazing that they could have made it all the way here from alpha centauri.

3. those who believe aliens represent a higher plane of consciousness and we'll have more and more contact with them as we become refined and "good enough". there are lots of #3 people in the truth movement, graduated from their new age academies, on their way to The Next Big Thing. they love crop circles. they think they're a manifestation of this higher consciousness. looking at some of the crop circle art, i'm inclined to think it comes from the needlepoint department at michael's.

4. the ones who've had flying saucer rides, had their bodies experimented on, perhaps subjected to indignities, perhaps befriending the alleged aliens. they walk among us and live in a different universe. john keel reports on a few cases. you can meet some by knocking on doors around joshua tree.

until you get your flying saucer ride, klim, i see you trying to work a combination of #2 and #3, trying to have your cake and eat it too. lookit, either these sumbitches are weasley, controlling, unscrupulous liars, manipulating a cabal of cynical, corrupt world leaders, or they are cosmic angels, here to introduce us to TNBT. you can't have it both ways.

TB,

I disagree. The massive "Mothership" on the Moon is not a Klunker. It is crashed, and now in ruins. If you read the interviews with "retiredafb", CDR William Rutledge, he relates how old they think it is, from the number of impact craters on its surface (that is how we approximate age of terrestrial planet surfaces remotely -- by crater counts). They also talk about landing gears, wreckage strewn around the craft (gold foil like glimmering pieces on the surface of the Moon surrounding it, and that it looks like it was in a battle. They seem to think it was trying to leave quickly when it was probably attacked. You have to read all the interviews. I find them incredibly interesting.

I called it an Ark becuase on another thread at the time we were talking about Noah's Ark. I called it that to get a "rise" out of a few and spark interest. If it is indeed a ship, at this grand scale then it is designed to hold a tremendous amount of matter, living and non-living. Ark isn't so far from the truth.

This is a composite image of the craft from the apparent video from the Apollo 20 overfly, put together by Rami, an Isreali artist who was working with Luca from near the beginning that the story broke back in April of 2007. When you watch these films the dialogue between CDR William Rutledge, Leonov, and Vandenburg AFB is indicated below in the film:





I would like to get into your specific questions but I'm running out of time this morning. I will get back later. Good questions and observations. But much of what I think is very well spoken by this PhD and a few others like him who say the same thing. This is from a Christian point of view . . . On number #2 you are the closest I thnk. I know how I would like things to work out, but the greed, the dark cold dead hearts of those in power, themselves manipulated by the Father of Lies will not allow it. The deceivers are themselves deceived.



UFORNA News:
http://www.ufoforhumanrights.com/in-the-news.php




The Upcoming Great Deception
by Stephen Yulish PhD
Posted 13:09 December 15, 2006
http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1206/deception.html



Extraterrestrials Tremble at the Name of Jesus
by Stephen Yulish PhD

"There is no neutral ground in the universe. Every square inch, every split second is claimed by God and countered claimed by Satan"
C.S. Lewis

Posted 14:30 March 29, 2007
http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0307/tremble.html



There WILL be an 'upcoming unambiguous appearance of UFOs over U.S. cities' at the Rapture,
article written in Summer 2010???
by Stephen Yulish PhD
http://www.ufodigest.com/news/0408/rapture-ufos3.html


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 20, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
the burning question for the christian is: did these folks get saved by a divine incarnation back home on their own planet? will that mean we're gonna have to have a holy quadruplity now?

you fellas ever heard of svali?

please, with the phd's. i've known so many of them. "knowing more and more about less and less." and, like lawyers, desperate for employment these days.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 20, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
Why would any advanced culture build the bridge on the outer hull of the ship? It's a hold-over from Star Trek and completely stupid. It would be like trying to stick the bridge of a modern submarine in the tower instead of in the center of the ship as far away from dangerous stuff as possible.

It's not even a very good hoax because people who make this stuff are almost as dumb as the people who fall for it.

I'm all for their being alien life and have no reason to think that we are the only "intelligent" life in the universe. I'm just not going to think that they build stuff like we do on Star Trek.

Dave

P.S. And for heavens sake, aliens, if your gonna experiment with cows, can you throw the bodies out in space or disintegrate them instead of leaving them in their own pastures? It's gross to leave that stuff just laying around like that.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Sep 20, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
"Why would any advanced culture build the bridge on the outer hull of the ship?"--rectorsquid



Who says that the feature in the "photo" is necessarily the craft's bridge?



...could very well be the bottom of the "ship" and the protrusion is the cargo door.




Or is could just be the artist's rendering...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
Do these official NASA Apollo 15 images match the supposed Apollo 20 images? Do they match in scale? Impact craters? Lunar rocks? Rock falls? Angles between all features seen in both etc? That is what needs to be done.

Apollo 15 AS15-P-9625 (stereogram image):
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625


Apollo 15 AS15-P-9630 (stereogram image):
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



Red/Blue Stereogram made from the same official images:



Apollo 17 AS17-M-2805:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS17/M/2805.jpg

also the following Apollo 17 image AS17-M-2806 could be used with AS17-M-2805 as a stereo pair:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS17/M/2806.jpg






I need to post the best still images from Apollo 20 here. Not at home at the moment will do so later . . .


Apollo 20 images:









Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 20, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
whats scary is that this thread was probably developed without the aid of psychotic drugs....
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 20, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
yea, rectorsquid articulated what i was trying to say.

listen up, klimmer and rokjox, both of you guys. do you know these lines?

"i see buildings. i see water."

same kinda stuff, cooked up for a believing audience. i think you have to learn to smell things through a little more thoroughly. you are NOT going to get the chance to nail this evidence down by investigation.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Sep 20, 2010 - 06:36pm PT
i see frogs..
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 20, 2010 - 10:28pm PT


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2010 - 09:49am PT
Big break through for me.

I made B&W stereograms from the offical Apollo 15 images years ago, and then someone came along and put them into Red/Blue 3D :-)) ; but now I have made stereograms from the official apollo 17 images :-)) and from the "Apollo 20" images :-)) :-))

I made computer on screen B&W stereograms from those images and the detail is pretty amazing! Full on 3D and the detail that is popping out as a result is incredible.

I'm also now going to try to make color sterograms from the video overfly from Apollo 20, since the video was shot in color.

This technique is not hard to do. Any images that significantly overlap from roughly near the same perspective can be used. This proves that the object is real. You can not fake 3D unless you make a perfect 3D model and then shoot the entire scene like they would do in Hollywood ($$$).

My comparisons between the official Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 images and those from "Apollo 20" so far is proving that they are indeed from the Moon. There are just too many perfect alignments in terms of objects, scale, position, angles, etc. etc. It would take a life-time to replicate a perfectly scaled model with no mistakes to do this. I think the images from Apollo 20 are indeed real. The B&W 3D steregrams are incredible. You can't fake this.

I will post a series of B&W stereograms when I have looked through them all and perfected them. You will need a stereoscope to view them.



Edit:

Here is a great resource for stereoscopes . . .

http://ascscientific.com/stereos.html

I have the Sokkia Pocket Stereoscope.



This stereoscope looks affordable and useable for many applications. I think I'm going to purchase this for my use . . .



The PokeScope® 3D Viewer
A Modern Stereoscope
and Stereoscopic Software
http://www.pokescope.com/



"The PokeScope is a revolutionary stereographic image viewer that employs prisms, rather than lenses, and "full masking windows" around each stereo image to allow viewing of all types printed or computer displayed stereo images. The PokeScope is held up to your eyes and images are generally viewed from a distance of 1.5 - 2 feet. Images can be viewed from a wide range of angles and precise image alignment is not as critical as with other stereoscopes."


I'm aware some people have a difficult time viewing in 3D. Some can not at all. However, most people can. Hours of 3D viewing will give you a headache. Hazard of the profession. Be careful.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2010 - 01:28am PT
Here come the stereograms: B&W and Color

You have to use a handheld stereoscope to view (see above post for stereoscopes and links). Also you can view all of these stereograms on your computer screen. Use the Ctrl with the scroll button on mouse to zoom in and out to get the scale perfect for your use.



Official NASA Apollo 15 images (B&W Stereogram):




"Apollo 20" Flyover (B&W Stereopair); compare features to the above official stereopair. Same features, different sun angle and shadow patterns. As far as I can tell from close comparisons it is the same exact Moon as above, and the same exact massive "Mothership" anomaly.






The following color images are from Apollo 20 flyover using the TV camera shot through the LEM window. Guidance markings are on the glass.

Apollo 20 TV/video flyover images: You can not fake these and get the Lunar terrain perfect to match official NASA Apollo images that have already flown this Lunar terrain over several Apollo missions (Apollo 15 and 17 at least, see above). Since the massive Mothership is in 3D in all of these images it is either real, or it is a massive perfect model set that was constructed at large scale and great expense, and shot with TV/video. The color is real. There are many sources that show the Lunar surface is really colorful rather than bleach white/grey as NASA often portrays the Lunar surface. See below.




































What is the true color of the Moon?





What is Moonwalker Astronaut Alan Bean trying to tell us with his colorful Lunar art?

http://www.alanbeangallery.com/room12.html
http://www.alanbeangallery.com/room10.html
http://www.alanbeangallery.com/roomFirstMen.html
http://www.alanbeangallery.com/room05.html
http://www.alanbeangallery.com/room07.html


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 01:44am PT



A NASA satellite took a secret x-ray image of Klimmer's brain from orbit and this is what it saw.












































































































































mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Sep 23, 2010 - 01:53am PT
Why is this thread still going?
I'm taking my telescope out into the street tonight and Gonna open a cold one (Salute our lost buddy Juan de Feuco) look at the planets and listen to the "Street Vibrations" fools driving into town.
Ship on the Moon ....There's a ship in my Arse also, should I take pictures when it comes into port Tomorrow morning? And everyone can discuss whether "Aliens" put it there or Knott. Hey I'll take the Alien Anal death probe as quick as the next guy, but at some point we have to take a deep breath and get down to "Earth". Remember?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 23, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
This just comes via Reuters and quotes many ex-military higher officers who say they have proof and are holding a press conference at the national press club. If you immediately dismiss this without checking it out, how high is your will and capacity for denial?


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS166901+15-Sep-2010+PRN20100915

PR Newswire

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15

Ex-military men say unknown intruders have monitored and even tampered with American nuclear missiles

Group to call on U.S. Government to reveal the facts

WASHINGTON, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003. In some cases, several nuclear missiles simultaneously and inexplicably malfunctioned while a disc-shaped object silently hovered nearby. Six former U.S. Air Force officers and one former enlisted man will break their silence about these events at the National Press Club and urge the government to publicly confirm their reality.

One of them, ICBM launch officer Captain Robert Salas, was on duty during one missile disruption incident at Malmstrom Air Force Base and was ordered to never discuss it. Another participant, retired Col. Charles Halt, observed a disc-shaped object directing beams of light down into the RAF Bentw#ters airbase in England and heard on the radio that they landed in the nuclear weapons storage area. Both men will provide stunning details about these events, and reveal how the U.S. military responded.

Captain Salas notes, "The U.S. Air Force is lying about the national security implications of unidentified aerial objects at nuclear bases and we can prove it." Col. Halt adds, "I believe that the security services of both the United States and the United Kingdom have attempted—both then and now—to subvert the significance of what occurred at RAF Bentw#ters by the use of well-practiced methods of disinformation."

The group of witnesses and a leading researcher, who has brought them together for the first time, will discuss the national security implications of these and other alarmingly similar incidents and will urge the government to reveal all information about them. This is a public-awareness issue.

Declassified U.S. government documents, to be distributed at the event, now substantiate the reality of UFO activity at nuclear weapons sites extending back to 1948. The press conference will also address present-day concerns about the abuse of government secrecy as well as the ongoing threat of nuclear weapons.

WHO: Dwynne Arneson, USAF Lt. Col. Ret., communications center officer-in-charge

Bruce Fenstermacher, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer

Charles Halt, USAF Col. Ret., former deputy base commander

Robert Hastings, researcher and author

Robert Jamison, former USAF nuclear missile targeting officer

Patrick McDonough, former USAF nuclear missile site geodetic surveyor

Jerome Nelson, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer

Robert Salas, former USAF nuclear missile launch officer
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
And to add . . .



U.S. Nuclear Weapons Have Been Compromised by Unidentified Aerial Objects
Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:44am EDT

WHAT: Noted researcher Robert Hastings, author of UFOs and Nukes: Extraordinary Encounters at Nuclear Weapons Sites, will moderate a distinguished panel of former U.S. Air Force officers involved in UFO incidents at nuclear missile sites near Malmstrom, F.E. Warren, and Walker AFBs, as well as the nuclear weapons depot at RAF Bentw#ters.

WHEN: Monday, September 27, 2010

12:30 p.m.

WHERE: National Press Club

Holeman Lounge

Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only

SOURCE Former U.S. Air Force Officer Robert Salas, and Researcher Robert Hastings


Thanks Karl :-))

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
Don't be fooled, Karl. It is on the Reuters web site but it is from "PR Newswire" and is a press release, not journalism.

Expect this book to be heavily promoted at the event:

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
GC,

Let me get this straight. What concerns you most is that this is a National Press Club meeting to only promote a book.

You are not concerned that our US government lies and cover-ups these UFO/ET goings on, even when they effect our National Defense and our National Security. You are ok with that. The bigger issue for you is the PR for a book.

How else are concerned citizens, concerned military officers and concerned enlisted members of the US Armed Forces going to talk "true to power" to their government? This is a 1st Admendment Right. We still have the ability to grieve our government and voice our concerns (at least for a little longer while we still have a Constitution and Bill of Rights).

I'm tired of the thoughtless and brainless "Debunking."

Some of you don't like getting painted into a corner where you can no longer ignore your own obvious ignorance, and you have to come to the reality that our government and other governments lie. Perhaps some of you are just like Colbert on "The Cobert Reporrrrrr," and you just don't want to know (lol). You would rather bury your head in the sand and ignore it. You don't like the idea that we are not the only intelligence in the Universe, and this seriously challenges your world-view and your lack of faith in GOD.

Time to wake up.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
What concerns me most, Klimmer, is that I look at you and see this:



Of less concern is that you look at a press release issued by crazy people selling a crackpot book and think its serious journalism.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 23, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
serious journalism doesn't exist anywhere except on the internet, where a few reporters manage to get by on contributions. television and major newspapers are totally controlled by established corporate interests. courageous journalists are usually never even hired. the ones who get feisty get fired. time and again.

i'm inclined to take this less seriously because it got okayed by some reuters editor. whatever the truth is that's "out there", as they used to say on x-files, it's under great control and allowed only to leak slowly to the public. the object of the game is to retain control.

most of us know JFK was not assassinated by lee harvey oswald, now, nearly 50 years later. operation northwoods, possibly the reason JFK was eliminated, has been released through the--hahahaha--freedom of tardy information act.

live long and you will know all the truths that "real" journalism will bring your way, graniteclimber, years after it ceases to be important.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 04:10pm PT


i'm inclined to take this less seriously because it got okayed by some reuters editor.

Tony, it wasn't okayed by some Reuters editor. Every PR Newswire is carried by Reuters. Pay a few bucks and you can issue your own PR Newswire story and have it carried by Reuters. Of course very few PR Newswire stories are picked up by the editors that draw on Reuters.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
There's always an excuse when it comes to lousy readiness and bad maintenance.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 23, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
I just saying they are worth listening to. We're talking former higher officers, deputy base commanders and nuke launch officers. Launch officers are highly vetted for not being nutcases.

So we should either re-double our nuclear security so nutcases aren't on the buttons, or figure out why these guys (only one has a book) care to look like nutcases in front of everybody

PEace

Karl
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 23, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
if that's true, granite, it proves my point by your standards: reuters willing to sell its prestige for a few bucks. news organizations used to be a lot more fastidious about such things.

as i've said before on here, press services rarely initiate stories. they pick them all up from member media. of course, an editor decides whether it's newsworthy--or politically correct.

sounds more to me like a "day the earth stood still" scenario, karl. thank god the aliens are interfering with these trigger-happy nuclear cowboys.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 04:56pm PT

We're talking former higher officers, deputy base commanders and nuke launch officers. Launch officers are highly vetted for not being nutcases.

Just like this astronaut.


Karl, I think to be a launch officer, where your entire job is to nuke people, you'd have to be a nutcase on some level to begin with.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
Graniteclimber, from here you don't look so smart.

Of course that's a press release, it's not touted as news.

Yet you say:

... press release issued by crazy people ...

"Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003."

There are many documented encounters from military from around the world, looks like you have no problem calling them all quacks.

http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=pd_sim_b_1


Why is your disbelief so strong?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
Again, the time and distances involved amounts to time travel. i.e. At the time anyone would even consider coming here humans likely wouldn't have existed on the planet. Our radio signature only has a 70 light year radius with powerful signals probably half that. The idea that we've been visited once is outlandish. The idea we're visited all the time by different alien races lunatic. The idea they'd travel here in a craft which could then enter our atmosphere idiotic (or in an undetected 'mothership'). The idea that anyone who could get here would give a flying f*#k about our nukes laughable. And the idea that there would be anyway for them to malfunction a silo from a 'saucer' is even more laughable. The whole affair has zero credibility and is strictly a just another sales pitch to sell books. Would you like some pine tar syrup with that?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
"Witness testimony from more than 120 former or retired military personnel points to an ongoing and alarming intervention by unidentified aerial objects at nuclear weapons sites, as recently as 2003."

K-man, why are you so willing to believe everything you read?

Hello? Hello?

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
Healyje, please explain this then:

http://www.rense.com/general52/deff.htm

This is not an internet hoax, there are many reports of this episode. You can even see the infrared images/film on the net.

[Edit]

I remember when this happened. The net has a Fox news report & the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
"K-man, why are you so willing to believe everything you read?"

I do not believe everything. But, I have had an interest in UFOs for a long time, not believing nor disbelieving. Curious, if you will.

The Mexican Air Force incident was the first time a Gov't acknowledged the presence of unidentified objects (as far as I know), and for this I think it's a very important event.

While I don't believe everything, it is hard to discount military pilots and Gov't officials who come clean on this stuff. We are watching it unfold--that's my belief.

But you, with the back of your hand, brush off 120 military officials, calling them all crazy without even looking at what they have to offer. Now that looks foolish to me.

And, these are the folks who are tasked with operating our nuke sites. You must not have very much faith in our military if you think they just put whackos in there to operate our nuke sites. Think about it.

[BTW, cool graphic!]
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
This picture was taken on the way back from the Valley.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Also, an alien saved my life a couple of weeks ago.













































































































































































































graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
The Mexican Air Force incident was the first time a Gov't acknowledged the presence of unidentified objects (as far as I know), and for this I think it's a very important event.

Both the U.S. and U.K governments have declassified reports on unidentified objects.

An unidentified object is just that. If I see something in the sky and can't tell what it is, it is unidentified.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
"This picture was taken on the way back from the Valley."

Quite obviously a hoax. You must think I'm a fool to fall for that BS.



But go on, call decorated military personnel "crazy," without actually looking at what they have to offer. And then you insult those that do look at what is being offered, why I think you're just a jerk.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 23, 2010 - 05:58pm PT
"Both the U.S. and U.K governments have declassified reports on unidentified objects."

Indeed, this is recent. The Mexican incident was in 2004, before the US and UK declassified much.

So why so quick to call 120 military personnel "crazy?"


Keep watching the news. It's my belief that you will see more reports being declassified.

Take a look at the UFO book I linked to. There's some pretty amazing stuff in that book. Oh, but that's right, anybody who sees something they cannot explain must be crazy. I forgot.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 23, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
Oh, but that's right, anybody who sees something they cannot explain must be crazy. I forgot.

No, people see things that they cannot explain all the time, but not everyone concocts crazy, illogical explanations in an attempt to explain them.

Is this a cloud or a giant alien bunny rabbit?


I see a cloud, but by the time Klimmer gets done digitally enhancing it, he'll have this.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
Everyone has a part to play . . .



1. 1953 CIA Robertson Panel – The CIA 1953 Robertson Panel imposed a virtual truth embargo on the UFFO/ET presence, prohibiting public discourse on UFO/ET in government, media, academia, education, science and mandating ridicule and social oppression of UFO/ET proponents. One source states, “The extremely high numbers of UFO reports in 1952 disturbed both the Air Force and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Both groups felt that an enemy nation could deliberately flood the U.S. with false UFO reports, causing mass panic and allowing them to launch a sneak attack. On September 24, 1952, the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence (OSI) issued a memorandum to Walter B. Smith, the CIA's director. The memo stated that ‘the flying saucer situation . . . have national security implications . . . [in] the public concern with the phenomena . . . lies the potential for he touching-off of mass hysteria and panic’.”




REPORT OF SCIENTIFIC ADVISORY PANEL ON UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS CONVENED BY OFFICE OF SCIENTIFIC INTELLIGENCE, CIA January 14 - 18, 1953
(The Durant report of the Robertson Panel proceedings)

http://www.cufon.org/cufon/robert.htm




GC,

By your admission, boy I must have some amazing powers. I'm just posting stereograms, not doctoring or digitally alternating anything. We see in 3D, it gives us much more information, depth of field, etc. Learn something new. Stereograms are pretty cool. Wow, I can just make up this stuff. Huh? Really? No, just asking questions and trying to figure it out.

You play your part so well, "mandating ridicule and social oppression of UFO/ET proponents." All you have are ad hominem attacks. Nothing else. Empty. Why?

By the way, do you get dental and medical coverage with your CIA operative job?

Huh? What? Oh, you don't work for the CIA you say? So you are carrying out their mandate for free, and you're not getting paid for it? Geeeeeeees. Wrong career. You could do what you already do for the CIA: ad hominem attacks, spread disinfo, ridicule and oppression, etc., and get paid the big bucks!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
K-man, as someone who's done a passing amount photogrammetry I'd say one look at the bottom reflections in the second photo in combination with their position relative to the horizon should be a big clue as to what they are. And that is verified by some nice forensic photogrammetry.

Again, the odds of any single alien civilization developing a means of time travel is infinitesimal. That they would develop it coincident to and detecting the existence of humans on Earth is even smaller. That they would invest the overwhelming level of planetary resources into a trip here for no real gain smaller still.

Also, to account for the near endless variety of UFO sightings, each essentially with a fairly unique 'craft', would require a belief that we're a virtual Times Square for thousands of alien civilizations. At exactly what point does common sense, basic logic, and elemental physics kick in and you understand humans are at once fictionally creative, delusional, greedy, and lunatic and always have been.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 23, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
healyje apparently has little knowledge of ufo phenomena, although i would agree with part of his logic. i've broached the subject with klimmer before, but he wants to believe what he wants to believe, and i must say that i often admire his enthusiasm and willingness to brave ST scorn.

an alternative explanation to the ufo stuff actually follows some of granite's reasoning: we don't know what it is, but let's not jump to the conclusion of extraterrestial. i've cited john keel's book several times in this vein. there are reliable witnesses to extraordinary phenomena, but the phenomena always seem to fail in their promise. the 20th century, with its breakthroughs in astronomy, speculates about extraterrestial civilization. during the 19th century, it was still angels and the intervention of the divine. keel says that ufo "flaps" at that time gave rise to both the jehovah witness and seventh day adventist sects. obviously phenomenal, paranormal happenings, with human hopes for an apocalyptic new age projected therein. somehow, this stuff never delivers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
I have no doubt there are millions of alien civilizations and that there have probably have been hundreds of millions of them over the history of the universe. What I doubt is that few if any have ever had any indication they weren't alone as an advanced species, that few if any have ever made two-way contact with another species by any means, and that none have time-traveled beyond their own solar system, and that we humans haven't inhabited the Earth long enough to be detected let alone 'visited'.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 23, 2010 - 09:29pm PT
i dont know, i was just talking to captain Kirk about this and he told me lots of Klingon stories...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 23, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
"the latest" (these things seem to change every 10 years or so) from leading evolutionary scientists portrays life as very serendipitous. lots of coincidences have given us what we have here, the sorts of things that just don't happen easily in your average star system. simon conway-morris of cambridge says maybe one life planet per galaxy--a lot lonelier universe than h.g. wells or george lucas prepared us for.
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
There are living entities on every planet in the entire cosmic creation.

Just because some of you dip sh'its can't see them you deny.

A few specks of dip sh'it deniers on this planet don't change,

cold, hard facts ......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:03pm PT
A few specks of dip sh'it deniers on this planet don't change,

cold, hard facts ......

And neither will a few specks of dip sh'it delusioneers.
WBraun

climber
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
You guys liked that didn't you.

hahaha
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Sep 23, 2010 - 10:58pm PT
http://io9.com/5646256/alien-astronomers-could-spot-neptune-through-the-cosmic-dustbut-maybe-not-earth

The planets may be too dim to detect directly, but aliens studying the solar system could easily determine the presence of Neptune — its gravity carves a little gap in the dust.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:33am PT
Joe writes

Again, the time and distances involved amounts to time travel. i.e. At the time anyone would even consider coming here humans likely wouldn't have existed on the planet. Our radio signature only has a 70 light year radius with powerful signals probably half that. The idea that we've been visited once is outlandish. The idea we're visited all the time by different alien races lunatic...


Based on your assumptions, this is true. But what is the difference between angels and aliens? Maybe it's not so much as we'd guess. This physical dimension may not be the only plane of existence. Our assumptions about the limitations of physics are based on a thousand years of basic science while others may have had millions of years to evolve deeper.

Alledgedly, the reason the aliens are opposed to nukes versus our other many ways of murdering each other is that nuke explosions have an effect on the subtle dimension they live in. Also explain how they can not be detected in many case

Just putting those thoughts out there. I don't know what the real truth is

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 01:49am PT
As I have said before, the story of "Apollo 20" is involved, complex, and a mixture of truth and disinformation.

There truly is something there on the Moon that is massive that we have discovered. All the official images from NASA say so. A massive ship that is approx. 5km long and almost 1km in width. Did I say massive? It is in 3D detail in both stereopair images from Apollo 15 and 17. Same exact massive structure.

The stereopair from "Apollo 20" shows the same exact structure, and the same exact Lunar surface. Too many exact matches between both. I do think it is a wrecked massive extraterrestrial fallen angel spaceship. "The Good Book" talks about the Heavenly Hosts being created before the Universe and that they were witnesses to Creation. The Watchers have been here for a very long time (billions of years). Those that fell (33% of the Sons of God), some mated with Earthly women and also taught mankind many things we should not have ever known such as War, among many other things we shouldn't have been taught. Some things we were taught were good, such as reading and writing. Read the Book of Enoch for the complete story.


The following stereopair images from CDR William Rutledge "retiredafb" film that was posted, supposively showing up close detail of the ship as shot through a telescope camera mount on the LEM are fake. I have said this before. When I put them into stereopairs I can see that they are fake even better. At the top of 2 of the stereopairs you can see a helix shaped large spring structure in good 3D detail. This must be support or some other structure in use with the massive model.

It looks to be a massive model shot in a studio with artificial light. When I say massive model, this thing must be about 20 feet in length or so. In one of the stereo pairs below you can see a slightly lit diagnal line. In the stereopair in 3D this looks like the front of someone standing in the background. At least it does to me. If this is true, then like I said this model of the ship is massive.

Who would do this? Who would take the time and have the resources and money to do this? Why would they want to make such a huge detailed model of this structure on the Moon? Someone obviously cares greatly about this massive ship on the Moon to go to the trouble and detail to make such a massive model. I don't think someone would do this just for a Youtube or Revver video hoax.

The Apollo 20 mission was USAF. They would have the resources to do this. They would be interested in this technology, material research, and the history of these ETs and would want to replicate what they found for further science research purposes. The military often makes massive models of ships, planes, jets, rockets, space shuttles etc. for mock-up research purposes. Why wouldn't they do it for ET technology and crafts discovered?

I think a purposefully planned disclosure is happening (with a small "d") and they are knitting a story together that is part real and part fake. It gives them great cover. I honestly think that CDR William Rutledge is being allowed to leak this. They know who he is. They know where he is. He can not do this alone. If the USAF did not want him to do this he would be taken out with predjudice in a heart-beat. I think some "white hats" in the Armed Forces are helping disclosure along and coming clean. Also it is a "pysops" experiment. Let the people figure it out. Let's see if they can do it. And how will they handle it when they do figure it out? They (those that know the truth) already have many of the answers and the technology. They get to control this game in a big way, and play with us as a cat plays with a mouse. It must be fun for them in some sick demented kind of way.

But they keep forgetting that many of us already know how the story ends. I read the Good Book. Those with GOD win. Those against GOD lose. The deceivers are themselves deceived.














Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 02:05am PT
Posted before:


Here is a great resource for stereoscopes . . .

http://ascscientific.com/stereos.html

I have the Sokkia Pocket Stereoscope.



This stereoscope looks affordable and useable for many applications. I think I'm going to purchase this for my use . . .



The PokeScope® 3D Viewer
A Modern Stereoscope
and Stereoscopic Software
http://www.pokescope.com/



"The PokeScope is a revolutionary stereographic image viewer that employs prisms, rather than lenses, and "full masking windows" around each stereo image to allow viewing of all types printed or computer displayed stereo images. The PokeScope is held up to your eyes and images are generally viewed from a distance of 1.5 - 2 feet. Images can be viewed from a wide range of angles and precise image alignment is not as critical as with other stereoscopes."


I'm aware some people have a difficult time viewing in 3D. Some can not at all. However, most people can. Hours of 3D viewing will give you a headache. Hazard of the profession. Be careful.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:04am PT
Alledgedly, the reason the aliens are opposed to nukes versus our other many ways of murdering each other is that nuke explosions have an effect on the subtle dimension they live in. Also explain how they can not be detected in many case

Karl, it's frankly quite hard to take that seriously. And why would beings from another dimension need a physical 'saucer' from this dimension? And where would this other dimension exist?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:33am PT
Klimmer ever seen a Saturn rocket launch. Short of a nuclear bomb it's one of the world's more powerful events. Pretty amazing someone could light three of those babies off with no one noticing. Apollo 20 - never happened. Those photos are wonderful fakes. Don't you think we'd have at least re-tasked Hubble for a peek at that baby by now? And you can bet lunar missions would never have stopped if there was even the slightest chance there was advanced technology on the moon that might have enhanced our ability to throw rocks at one another. In fact, I can insure you there would be an enormous Hilton and Seven Flags park up there by now as cover for the on-going operation.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:48am PT
Klimmer's 10:49 post above is proof of just how fantastically delusional he is. According to him, even evidence that the pics showing his "spaceship" are faked are "proof" that the spaceship is real. What a nutcase!

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:14am PT
Joe writes

Karl, it's frankly quite hard to take that seriously. And why would beings from another dimension need a physical 'saucer' from this dimension? And where would this other dimension exist?

Believe or disbelieve whatever you like. It hardly matters for either of us, as if Aliens show, they show, and if they don't, whatever, we deal with life anyway.

But think about it. There are other unseen dimensions we know well about. The electromagetic spectrum as radiowaves, gamma waves, Microwaves, infrared light and all kinds of energy that we can't see but that can carry information. The parameter's of being alive are beyond our assumptions. We already know that Nuclear explosions have an enormous impact across the electromagnetic spectrum. We can see the borealis under certain conditions but not on others, we assume these craft are physical but they reportedly defy our expectations of physical laws. Some may be, some may not be. Surely there are piles of lie, hocus-pocus and maybe disinformation about this out there. Hard to know what's up

Peace

Karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:43am PT
The electromagnetic spectrum and the aurora borealis exist in our dimensions.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:59am PT
I don't know, that sounds like pretty much an absolutely anything goes set of beliefs. Hard to imagine dimensions that could interact with ours on our scale and us not being able to detect them. Hard to imagine physical objects that aren't subject to physical laws. And hard to imagine a nuke would have significant effects in any spectrum much beyond our magnetosphere other than maybe a brief burst of faint gamma radiation.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 08:41am PT
klimmer had me for awhile until he started thumping his bible.

healyje, i read that some phys-wiz postulated up to 11 dimensions for a grand unified theory. everybody was going for the GUT about 10 years ago, now you don't hear it so much. things change that fast. but physics gets pretty wild. it isn't a newtonian universe any more.

granite, posting the same poop-ass picture more than once on the same thread is the unforgivable sin. i'm sure you'll find that in klimmer's bible if you interpret it properly.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 09:47am PT
TB,

GUT is still in the game. They have been working on unifying the Gravity Force, the Strong/Weak Atomic Force, and EM Force since the days of Einstein. That was his last problem at the end of his life. We still haven't figured it out. Goes back to the Big Bang. At the point of singularity all 4 must have been combined, we reason and theorize.

It looks like the Universe is multi-verse. Parallel Universes and multi-dimensions? Possibly.

I have a new book to read that I haven't jumped into yet, "In Search of the Mutiverse: parallel worlds, hidden dimensions, and the ultimate quest for the frontiers of reality" by John Gribbin. Looks good. So many books so little time.

String theory. Worm Holes etc. etc. It is a wonderfully bizarre Universe and difficult to get a grasp on. Physics is going in incredible directions.



Sorry that you find offence when I find the World around me lines up and makes sense according to the word of GOD. He told us many things already. All we have to do is listen. We can still look and figure it out. He wants us to do that. There is a commandment to look, watch, and be ready. We must do all of that. But we also just have to read and listen to what he has already said. Many answers are given. You just have to look. When we understand it all one day, there won't be an contradictions. Science and the Word of GOD do not contradict one another, we are learning that the more we understand both.

Personally, I find it all very fascinating.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 24, 2010 - 10:35am PT
I don't know, that sounds like pretty much an absolutely anything goes set of beliefs. Hard to imagine dimensions that could interact with ours on our scale and us not being able to detect them. Hard to imagine physical objects that aren't subject to physical laws. And hard to imagine a nuke would have significant effects in any spectrum much beyond our magnetosphere other than maybe a brief burst of faint gamma radiation.

100 or 200 measly years ago, similar statements about unseen energy could have been made by an intelligent man only to be wildly disproven by later science. You could be killed by radiation that noone could detect. Your assumptions above are based on our awareness of this dimension and we have not the tools to detect beyond a certain threshold. Doesn't mean that doesn't exist.

Basically boils down to whether there are spiritual dimension or not, and whether they can affect this one or be affected by this one, and whether the laws are different.

Peace

Karl
Ben Harland

Social climber
Baltimore, MD
Sep 24, 2010 - 10:41am PT
This thread just reminded me of a lecture Richard Feynman gave in the 70's called "Cargo Cult Science".
http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:14am PT
you can bet lunar missions would never have stopped if there was even the slightest chance there was advanced technology on the moon

Ding-ding-ding-ding!!! We have a winner! End of thread!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 11:30am PT
What is a little more ridicule from the ST crowd?


Alien Moon Base
by UFO Joe, InfoNet

Is there an "Alien Base" on the Moon. More and more people
are coming forward with stories of an Alien presence on the
Moon. Rumors are that their "Moon Base" is on the dark side
of the moon, the side we never see from Earth.

Did you ever wonder why the Moon landings stopped and why
have we not tried to build a Moon Base. It seems a better and
easier idea than a floating space station?

According to Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on the
Moon and wanted us to get off and stay off the Moon! Milton
Cooper a Naval Intelligence Officer tell us that the
Intelligence community calls the Alien Base "Luna":

LUNA: The Alien base on the far side of the Moon. It
was seen and filmed by the Apollo Astronauts. A base, a mining
operation using very large machines, and the very large alien
craft described in sighting reports as MOTHER SHIPS exist there.
 Milton Cooper

snip >

NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...

Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
They're on the Moon watching us!

snip >

Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?

Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that their ships were far superior to ours both in size and technology - Boy, were they big!...and menacing! No, there is no question of a space station.


MORE: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/moonbase.htm




I think the story rings true. Even Neil Armstrong in a famous speech talks about "removing truths protective layers."

Someone should post that speech again given at the White House.


Too many NASA astronauts have come forward and talked about the constant UFO surveillance that all missions seem to experience. Those of you who ignore their testimony, do so at peril of your own ignorance.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:43am PT
why
have we not tried to build a Moon Base. It seems a better and
easier idea than a floating space station?

Umm, because it takes only 1 day to reach instead of 4, it's easier to position, it doesn't require escape velocities to debark from, communication lag time is less & stronger signal strength, because the weak gravity negates the zero-gravity experiment designs researchers are exploring, etc.

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:50am PT
Ding-ding-ding-ding!!! We have a winner! End of thread!

Not so quick. The loonballs will say the missions did continue(secretly, ie Apollo 18,19,20,21,...), till the technology was recovered and now we only need the illusion that rockets are our highest space travel technology.
WBraun

climber
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:52am PT
Only stupid people waste their time trying for the moon by the ascending process.

They can't even get it right on earth.

Instead they waste peoples hard earned money and time on going nowhere.

Stupid people ......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:56am PT
^^^^
I'm sure you're right, but I say if the gov't can't even hide its super-secret stuff on this planet (Iran-Contra, CIA assassinations, stealth bomber, etc), then there's no way it could hide something as hugely involved as a secret moon mission.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:58am PT
Yep, but KlimmerLogic knows no limits.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 24, 2010 - 11:59am PT
Karl, karl, you should not have written this. Years of credibility as a thoughtful, knowledgable person are at risk. Extra dimensions of spacetime have nothing to do with the parts of the EM spectrum that your eyes are not sensitive to.

Just making an analogy to illustrate that there are unseen realities that were denied until we got the technology to understand them. We're babies and keep thinking we know the whole story.

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
C'mon guys do we have to keep going over this? Do you guys have selective memories?

Apollo 18 did happen Google it.

Apollo-Soyuz (Apollo 18):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo-Soyuz_Test_Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canceled_Apollo_missions

We are only talking about Apollo 19, and then Apollo 20. Those missions were planned, then cancelled. We had all the hardware, rockets and then some. Do you think they just trashed and recycled these multi million dollar crafts for scrap metal? No they used them. There were even more left over, and these went into musuems. Apollo 18 was practice with the USSR, for going to the moon in Apollo 19 (didn't go, had to be aborted soon after lift-off according to the story), but Apollo 20 made it.

Got to read the book by Luca, Apollo 20 Disclosure. Am I the only one who has read this story and followed it since 2007?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
Klimmer's "these babies are huge" Neil Armstrong story is a great example of what is "wrong" with his thinking. Neil Armstrong never said any of that. Someone made it up, it got repeated a zillion times and now poor Klimmer is convinced it is the truth. Like all fabrications, there are multiple versions of the story. In some, Neil said this in an interview at the White House, in others is was a NASA symposium, in others it was in an interview with a "prominent senior astrophysicists", in others it was captured by ham radio operators evesdropping on Apollo 11. I guess Klimmer can respond by saying "Of course, Neil Armstrong said this a bunch of times!"




Mike B.,

Wrong. Names are named. These people are not "no bodies" but former NASA employees saying this:

"former NASA employee Otto Binder"
"Maurice Chatelain, former chief of NASA Communications Systems"

and in addition these:

"Dr. Vladimir Azhazha, a physicist and Professor of
Mathematics at Moscow University"
"another Soviet scientist, Dr. Aleksandr Kazantsev"








http://www.sacred-texts.com/ufo/moonbase.htm

SUBJECT: Moon Sightings FILE: UFO50


I'm not to sure of this as i dont have the book to
hand (Above Top Secret), but wasn't there a report that the crew
of the eagle (Armstrong et al), when they left the module,
turned round and found themselves looking at alien craft at the
top of a crater?
(The following file was posted on InfoNet London
Ontario)

Alien Moon Base
by UFO Joe, InfoNet


Is there an "Alien Base" on the Moon. More and more people
are coming forward with stories of an Alien presence on the
Moon. Rumors are that their "Moon Base" is on the dark side
of the moon, the side we never see from Earth.

Did you ever wonder why the Moon landings stopped and why
have we not tried to build a Moon Base. It seems a better and
easier idea than a floating space station?

According to Neil Armstrong the Aliens have a base on the
Moon and wanted us to get off and stay off the Moon! Milton
Cooper a Naval Intellegence Officer tell us that the
Intellegence community calls the Alien Base "Luna":

LUNA: The Alien base on the far side of the Moon. It
was seen and filmed by the Apollo Astronauts. A base, a mining
operation using very large machines, and the very large alien
craft described in sighting reports as MOTHER SHIPS exist there.
 Milton Cooper

* * *

Did Apollo 11 Encounter UFOs on the Moon?
from the Book "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good

According to hitherto unconfirmed reports, both Neil
Armstrong and Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin saw UFOs shortly after that
historic landing on the Moon in Apollo 11 on 21 July 1969. I
remember hearing one of the astronauts refer to a "light" in
or on a crater during the television transmission, followed by
a request from mission control for further information. Nothing
more was heard.

According to a former NASA employee Otto Binder, unnamed
radio hams with their own VHF receiving facilities that bypassed
NASA's broadcasting outlets picked up the following exchange:

NASA: Whats there?
Mission Control calling Apollo 11...

Apollo11: These "Babies" are huge, Sir! Enormous!
OH MY GOD! You wouldn't believe it!
I'm telling you there are other spacecraft out there,
Lined up on the far side of the crater edge!
They're on the Moon watching us!

In 1979 Maurice Chatelain, former chief of NASA
Communications Systems confirmed that Armstrong had indeed
reported seeing two UFOs on the rim of a crater. "The encounter
was common knowledge in NASA," he revealed, "but nobody has
talked about it until now."

Soviet scientists were allegedly the first to confirm
the incident. "According to our information, the encounter
was reported immediately after the landing of the module," said
Dr. Vladimir Azhazha, a physicist and Professor of
Mathematics at Moscow University. "Neil Armstrong relayed the
message to Mission Control that two large, mysterious objects
were watching them after having landed near the moon module.
But his message was never heard by the public - because NASA
censored it. "According to another Soviet scientist, Dr.
Aleksandr Kazantsev, Buss Aldrin took color movie film of the
UFOs from inside the module, and continued filming them after
he and Armstrong went outside. Dr. Azhazha claims that the
UFOs departed minutes after the astronauts came out on to the
lunar surface.

Maurice Chatelain also confirmed that Apollo 11's
radio transmissions were interrupted on several occasions in
order to hide the news from the public. Before dismissing
Chatelain's sensational claims, it is worth noting his
impressive background in the aerospace industry and space
program. His first job after moving from France was as an
electronics engineer with Convair, specializing in
telecommunications, telemetry and radar. In 1959 he was in
charge of an electromagnetic research group, developing new
radar and telecommunications systems for Ryan. One of his
eleven patents was an automatic radar landing system that
ignited retro rockets at a given altitude, used in the
Ranger and Surveyor flights to the Moon. Later, at North
American Aviation, Chatelain was offered the job of designing
and building the Apollo communications and data-processing
systems.

Chatelain claims that "all Apollo and Gemini flights
were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite
closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying
saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name.
Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission
Control, who then ordered absolute silence." He goes on to
say:

"I think that Walter Schirra aboard Mercury 8 was the
first of the astronauts to use the code name 'Santa Claus'
to indicate the presence of flying saucers next to space
capsules. However, his announcements were barely noticed by the
general public. It was a little different when James Lovell
on board the Apollo 8 command module came out from behind the
moon and said for everybody to hear: 'PLEASE BE INFORMED THAT
THERE IS A SANTA CLAUS.' Even though this happened on
Christmas Day 1968, many people sensed a hidden meaning in those
words."

Rumors persist. NASA may well be a civilian agency, but
many of its programs are funded by the defence budget and most
of the astronauts are subject to military security regulations.
Apart from the fact that the National Security Agency screens
all films and probably radio communications as well. We have the
statements by Otto Binder, Dr. Garry Henderson and Maurice
Chatelain that the astronauts were under strict orders not to
discuss their sightings. And Gordon Cooper has testified to a
United Nations committee that one of the astronauts actually
witnessed a UFO on the ground. If there is no secrecy, why has
this sighting not been made public?

A certain professor, who wished to remain anonymous, was
engaged in a discussion with Neil Armstrong during a NASA
symposium.
Professor: What REALLY happened out there with Apollo 11?

Armstrong: It was incredible, of course we had always
known there was a possibility, the fact is,
we were warned off!(by the Aliens). There was
never any question then of a space station or a
moon city.

Professor: How do you mean "warned off"?

Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that
their ships were far superior to ours both in
size and technology - Boy, were they
big!...and menacing!
No, there is no question of a space station.
Professor: But NASA had other missions after Apollo 11?

Armstrong: Naturally - NASA was committed at that time,
and couldn't risk panic on Earth. But it really
was a quick scoop and back again.

Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to
go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind
the cover-up.
---
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
I was referring to the last official moon mission and the claimed followup secret missions, Klimmer.

Apollo-Soyuz was not officially called Apollo 18, it was named Apollo–Soyuz Test Project (ASTP).

UFO Joe as a source, hilarious!.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Mono,

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canceled_Apollo_missions
For the ASTP mission, sometimes unofficially referred to as Apollo 18, see Apollo-Soyuz Test Project.

Many articles on ASTP call it "Apollo 18" unofficially. Read up.

The point is it had a purpose to get the USSR and the US together before going back to the Moon, according to "CDR William Rutledge (Apollo 20)"
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
Why would the US and USSR need to be tied together by the Soyuz program, Klimmer?

Do you think the secret missions involved US-USSR linkups in orbit before slinking off to the moon?

Just a rhetorical question Klimmer, I know I will get nonsense in return. Better for you to spend your school day improving the lesson plans.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
Mono,


Apparently you haven't been following the story of Apollo 19 and Apollo 20.

Apollo 19: Crew of 3. CDR John Young ("moonwalker1966delta") and another USSR Cosmonaut. I'll look up the other names later.

Apollo 20: Crew of 3. CDR William Rutledge ("retiredafb") and the famous USSR Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov, and one more woman US astronaut (the first US Astronaut into space if the story is indeed true), her name escape me at the moment.


ASTP was used to get Alexei up to speed for going to the Moon with Apollo 20, according to CDR William Rutledge.

Follow the story. Read the book. Read it as fiction if you prefer. I just see too many verfied evidences lining up to say otherwise.




MB,

Email these guys and check it out if they are still living. Check it out. Would be interesting to see what they say. Perhaps there are original sources where they do indeed say these things?

Too many public statements by NASA astronauts confirm that UFOs/ET are real and they are constantly being monitored by them every time we go to space. Are you going to denie this?

We can put up a historical record in chronological order of well known NASA astronauts making public statements, admitting that NASA cover-up the truth and lies.

We have been down this road before. Do we have to do it again? And again? And again?

Like I said, you guys have selective memories. I'm convinced that some climbers on ST have no memory what-so-ever.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
Well, I would very much like to believe that alien craft were seen on the moon.

And I would like to believe that numerous pilots through the years have had UFO encounters.

If true, this universe would be far more interesting!

Like everyone else I suppose, I would like to see some solid proof.

What makes me more doubtful than just believing because it would very cool, is the fact that no civilian findings have shown up, no space craft, no bodies, no physical evidence.

So, it is one thing to say that the NSA or military does not want to panic the world, and so keeps hidden all the actual proof they found.

But civilian populations are far more diverse and huge in number than military, and still we have no real proofs.

So, to me then only, until proven, it is all but speculation, interesting, like voodoo.


monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
Really Klimmer, that could not be accomplished any other way than a link-up in orbit?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 01:23pm PT
but, but, Cosmonaut Alexei Leonov *denies* the Apollo 20 urban myth! I guess they got to him. Maybe mind-control beams or something.



MB,

Really, show me the money. Show me!

The author Luca S., of the book Apollo 20: The Disclosure who has followed this story and did the interviews since April of 2007, has said that indeed, Alexei does know that this story is out publically, and he has a "no comment" reaction. He doesn't denie it. He has a "No comment" response.

Astronaut John Young has said it is all fake or something to that effect, but when asked directly about the massive mothership, has a "No comment" response also.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
There were no undetectable Apollo launches.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:31pm PT
Funny, the perps can lie, but when asked a direct question are compelled to say "no comment".
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
Again, the odds of any single alien civilization developing a means of time travel is infinitesimal.

Somebody thinks they know all there is to know about the universe!

Remember, it wasn't so long ago that people on this planet thought that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

Lo, but we are "modern" and know much more. In fact, we have discovered all there is to know about the physical universe.

What a joke.

healyje, are you familiar with Sagan's "Cosmic Calendar?" Carl Sagan, in his book Dragons of Eden, put forth the idea of a calendar whereby the entire cosmos, from the Big Bang until now, was plotted out on a calendar year. Interesting to look at. Not much happens here on earth for the first 11 1/2 months. In fact, in the cosmic calendar, Christ was born only a second or two before Midnight on December 31.

http://school.discoveryeducation.com/schooladventures/universe/itsawesome/cosmiccalendar/page2.html

My point? Well, suppose that a civilization began its development 1 day (in the cosmic calendar sense) before us. Now suppose, do you think they might know a bit more about the physical universe than, say, you?

Your statements are made with authority and are portrayed at fact. Although from what you know about the universe, you might as well be saying the Earth is flat and that the Sun rotates around us.


BTW, teleportation is, in a sense, time travel. Impossible, right?

Well, here on Earth, there is a glimmer of it:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1874760,00.html


Again, the odds of any single alien civilization developing a means of time travel is infinitesimal.


Perhaps you want to rephrase that?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
Bro, the quote is: "Well, suppose that a civilization began its development 1 day (in the cosmic calendar sense) before us."

You know, like on December 30th.

As for this statement:
"If you invoke the principle that 'anything is possible since we don't know everything about everything' then all arguments end with the same trivial conclusion."

I never said that anything is possible. What I am saying is that we are foolish if we believe we know all there is to know about the physical universe. Einstein, smart as he was, didn't get it all; his statement about nothing being able to travel faster than the speed of light (you know, E=MC2 and all) has been proven false. See the article about teleportation for an example.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
his statement about nothing being able to travel faster than the speed of light (you know, E=MC2 and all) has been proven false.

Well, for all practical purposes, TFL is impossible. Any vehicle attempting to do so would be impossible to control and the radiation produced would kill anyone in the ship. See Alcubierre Drive for more analysis
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
We're babies and keep thinking we know the whole story.

If every civilization and culture before us had decided to be more open-minded to the outrageous, we would still be back before the dark-ages in technology and thought. People would be researching every little stupid thing that came out of "klimmers'" mouths. People would have gotten nowhere without a very healthy acceptance that most people are stupid or crazy and that we should not take every nut-job crack-pot idea and run with it.

Sure, some more open-mindedness seems like it might help us. On the other hand, how do we decide to open our minds to the idea that the earth is round while not also opening our minds to the idea that there are faeries in the forest making the flowers bloom.

In fact, why does Klimmer think that there is an ark on the moon but not think that there are mermaids?

We may be babies but thinking that we don't know the whole story may do more harm than good in the long run.

Dave
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
Just so, I am not saying space ships have to travel at the speed of light, time travel, or go through "worm holes" to space travel.

I look at the different reports of UFOs, pictures and accounts from various folks, and have to believe that there is more to it than science fiction.

I cannot say that I know what is up, but I can certainly say that there are real, physical air crafts that go way beyond what we know of the physical universe. How they got here, who knows. But when hundreds of people, military pilots and such, claim to see things (and have pictures of such), then you have to begin to admit that there's more to it than we, in our lifetimes, might ever know.

Check out slides 9-12 on the following site:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/14/ufos-on-the-record-leslie_n_714733.html
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
Healyje's statement is still valid given what we currently know.

and

... [is] there is some tiny chance that any statement could be wrong because we don't know everything?

A tiny chance? Wow, you are certainly strong in your convictions that what you know is infallibly true!


Einstein never said that nothing can travel faster than light.

I'm just a layperson, but my understanding of E=MC^2 is that the mass of an object approaches infinity the closer it gets to the speed of light; and therefore, a particle could not go as fast as the speed of light because it's mass would become too large. From this we have the wave vs. particle dilemma.

And, from my tiny knowledge of the subject, it's my belief that current experiments in quantum physics demonstrate that particles instantaneously move from one spot to another, in essence traveling faster than the speed of light.

Regardless, using the claim that there is a "tiny" chance that things are not as we believe, can you explain what the Mexican Air Force captured on these films:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y

survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
Has anybody put this on here?

This is absolutely perfect for this thread.

"Cause like I seen pictures with J-lo and two massive geezers dong's there, like right 'ere, you know?"

Buzz Aldrin: Well I haven't seen those pictures.

Ali: Well then you should check it out......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNj1UOgacMA
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
In my position, I have had the great privilege of talking to many of the important figures from this era. When I asked Neil Armstrong about this in 1989 at the National Academy of the Sciences celebration of the 20th anniversary of the moon landing he shook his head, rolled his eyes and said the dilema he faced was whether to draw even more attention to the ridiculous claims by repeatedly publicly denying them or to just assume that people were not that gullible and the silly stories would fade away. He also said that the sorts of people who have a need to believe in that sort of stuff will use whatever he says to bolster their case so it is usually best to simply say "no comment" while realizing even that will be mis-used.

I was also a member of the visiting committee that evaluated the Soviet 6-meter telescope scientific productivity in 1994. Leonov was attended the dinner for the review committee on the last evening and told many interesting and amusing stories. When someone asked about the Apollo 20 stories he dismissed the topic with a wave of his hand and an oath (at least it had that feel) in Russian.

Dr. Michael Bolte, PhD, Astrophysicist, NASA Hubble Fellow




Did you believe those stories? I completely made them up!



PhD Bolte,

Nice story. You wouldn't have known to ask Alexei about Apollo 20, because the story didn't publically break until April, 2007. :-)

Now, I know you are a well respected PhD. I've looked you up. I do appreciate your input. I respect your input. I appreciate everyone's input when it is well meaning (no personal attacks etc.)

Yes, I know people lie and make-up stuff for whatever wrong reasons. Me I try not to ever do that. I wrestle with these things because I really truly want to know. Don't we all want to know? Can't we have meaningful discussions without the constant ad hominem attacks and ridicule? Too much evidence is in existance now and too many people have come forward with what they know.

Like I said, too many NASA officials, NASA astronauts, NASA "Moonwalkers", Military officers, and enlisted men (and women)have come forward at the risk of public ridicule and said UFOs are a real phenomenon, and ET is here.


Now, I know not all aspects of the Apollo 19 and 20 story are true. I know that. But some are. Some of it rings true. Who is capable of faking all of this evidence and who has the means, motive, and opportunity to do so? Just for a internet Youtube or Revver joke? We are talking about an incredibly expensive block-buster hoax.

There are only so many possibilities:

A. It is all true.

B. Parts of it are true and parts of it are false.

C. It is all an elaborate hoax. None of it is true.



I'm going with B.

Now who could pull-off this disclosure of part truth and part hoax? We are talking big budget, lots of time, access to props only the government would have, skilled camera work, elaborate large scale models, the list goes on and on, actors, lots of people involved, skilled artists, on and on and on.

Either the Hollywood studio that pulled this massive hoax off for 3.5 years now, has done this for a massive under the radar ad campaign for the block-buster movie coming out soon or . . .

The USAF and other US government oganizations have done this. I think the USAF is disclosing in a small "d" kind of a way, and seeking cover so they can denie it. People get used to the idea and learn the truth of a massive Mothership on the farside of the Moon, and they don't have to suffer the out-fall. All they have to say is hog-wash and point to obvious hoaxing that we are figuring out.

Who can hoax on this grandscale? Who has the motive, means, and opportunity? USAF and those deep inside NASA. Part disclosure and part lie. They get it both ways. What a perfect cover.


gtowey

Sport climber
Sunnyvale, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
"but I can certainly say that there are real, physical air crafts that go way beyond what we know of the physical universe. "

Huh? How can you say that? The only think you can say for sure is that there's some stuff that people may or may not have observed which they didn't know what it was. BFD!
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
I admit, my knowledge of physics is "tiny."

Mike: "mexican lights = gas flares + refraction/reflection effects + moving airplane

dancing lights in the dark are very hard to interpret."

Obviously you did not view the video. The are not "lights" at all. These are spheres that followed and surrounded the plane for about 10 minutes. Then they vanished. They were not in the visible spectrum.

So to say they were "dancing lights in the dark" shows you've made up your mind before looking at evidence.

And del cross, the thing about bigfoot...please take out the trash and bring your "debate" above the elementary school level. Thanks.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
The USAF and other US government oganizations have done this. I think the USAF is disclosing in a small "d" kind of a way, and seeking cover so they can denie it. People get used to the idea and learn the truth of a massive Mothership on the farside of the Moon, and they don't have to suffer the out-fall. All they have to say is hog-wash and point to obvious hoaxing that we are figuring out.

klimmer, relax. go see a doctor and get some meds. and for god sakes don't keep firearms in your house...you need some serious help.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
"... there's some stuff that people may or may not have observed which they didn't know what it was."

Whoa boy, now there's a whopper!


"I didn't see anything, and I certainly don't know what it was!"


BTW, I can say that because I know the same way that you "know" anything.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Sep 24, 2010 - 03:37pm PT

http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
k-man, we can easily settle this by arm-wrestling.

I watched both video's, did you check out the second one?

http://www.alcione.org/FAM/FLIR_CONCLUSION.html



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
K-man, I'm in the computer biz and know about the entanglement experiments and the other various quantum computing work going on. Yeah, we can transport entangled information, but what they aren't saying is that to disassemble and reassemble any significant entity would require more processing power than exists in the universe - it's basically an infinite scaling requirement to do so.

And even if you can entangle significant amounts of information you still have cover the distance from point A to point B. Ain't going to happen. Even if there were a remote, glimmering possibility of it, the likely odds of a civilization being overtaken by a civilization-ending biological, geological, astronomical, or self-generated event before they could do so are immense if almost unthinkable.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
healyje, if somebody said that UFOs use transporter-type technologies to travel, I missed it. But, if the crafts that hundreds of people have witnessed are not military crafts, then they got here by a means unknown to us.

And, after talking with folks who have witnessed events, I'm pretty certain the things they saw did not originate from any state nations we know.


But, because you're in the computer biz, you must have some idea what the sphere's are that are documented in the Mexican Air Force footage. I'd be interested to hear your take on them.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
I'm now in computers, but I was a naval aerial photographer in Vietnam with just enough recon and photogrammetry training to know what I was doing when shooting or when looking at U2 or satellite rolls.

I posted up-thread what those balls were and a link to another person's analysis of them. The reflected highlights underneath the two balls in the second photo, in combination with their angle below the horizon, are the first glaring clues as to what they are. Go back up to that post and link.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
from goatboy's link, it was too good to pass up!

[quote]Delusions are irrational beliefs, held with a high level of conviction, that are highly resistant to change even when the delusional person is exposed to forms of proof that contradict the belief. Non-bizarre delusions are considered to be plausible; that is, there is a possibility that what the person believes to be true could actually occur a small proportion of the time. Conversely, bizarre delusions focus on matters that would be impossible in reality. For example, a non-bizarre delusion might be the belief that one's activities are constantly under observation by federal law enforcement or intelligence agencies, which actually does occur for a small number of people. By contrast, a man who believes he is pregnant with German Shepherd puppies holds a belief that could never come to pass in reality. Also, for beliefs to be considered delusional, the content or themes of the beliefs must be uncommon in the person's culture or religion. Generally, in delusional disorder, these mistaken beliefs are organized into a consistent world-view that is logical other than being based on an improbable foundation.

Read more: Delusional disorder - define, causes, DSM, functioning, effects, therapy, paranoia, adults, withdrawal, drug, examples, person, people, used, brain, personality, effect, women http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#ixzz10TqUFRbX[/quote]

look on the bright side, al least there isnt a litter on the way!
BCD

Mountain climber
Bishop, CA
Sep 24, 2010 - 04:55pm PT

Here's the part that confuses me:

Armstrong: I can't go into details, except to say that
their ships were far superior to ours both in
size and technology - Boy, were they
big!...and menacing!

….........

Armstrong confirmed that the story was true but refused to
go into further detail, beyond admitting that the CIA was behind
the cover-up.

Why does he refuse to go into details? The cat's out of the bag already! He revealed that there was a cover-up, and he revealed the agency behind the cover-up. If he was sworn to secrecy and afraid of the CIA, then he's already in pretty big trouble. Relaying the details isn't going to get him in any more trouble.
Is it because he doesn't have any details? Or maybe it's because he never spoke those words and I'm just getting trolled?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
healyje, thanks for pointing out your link again. I had thought that you had looked at just the picture (not the video) and that your link was to an article that described forensic photogrammetry, not a link that recreated the Mexican video. There's a lot of info on that link, and their explanation certainly seems plausible.


del cross, I don't believe I've stated that E <> MC^2. And I know squat about angles and ghosts--although my old GF did have quite an experience with a "ghost" of sorts.

Certainly, there are phenomena that cannot be explained. When one person sees or physically feels something, we can question what they experienced and rationalize what they observed. But, when hundreds of people see an object (or objects) that defy what we hold as being true, then it raises more serious questions.

Personally, I have talked to people who have witnessed things they cannot explain. And now the UK and the US are declassifying many UFO reports that raise the question "What the heck is that?"

Sure, we can say with 99% certainty that things cannot space travel. But then, here are these things. So, what are they?? At some point, you have to say "we cannot explain what these things are with our current scope of understanding."

I like to watch the news about these things, simply my curiosity is piqued.

As for a Moon-based alien station, I'm not getting my panties in a wad about that yet ... (How can anybody claim that, when we never landed on the Moon in the first place, is beyond me! ;-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
If indeed this conversation took place it was a private conversation and off the record with another PhD.

Listen carefully to the famous and historical public speech that Neil Armstrong gave at the White House where he talked about "removing truth's protective layers." That speech is loaded with deep (read between the lines) meaning. Since when and why does truth need to be protected? And why do we have to remove the layers protecting it? What are they hiding?

Link to speech:

Apollo 11 25th Anniversary -- the Neil Armstrong Speech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeQriZqkKIk


Maybe we should list again the Chronological order of public statments where NASA astronauts and some of the "Moonwalkers" do and have indeed publically admitted that UFOs are a real phenomenon and that ET is here, and we have been monitored nearly all the time we have gone to space.

"The Watchers" are indeed watching us. They always have. Read "The Good Book" to know why.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 24, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html

klimmer this is goatboys link. really, read it. just trying to help someone out here and that someone is you....

"The Watchers" are indeed watching us. They always have. Read "The Good Book" to know why.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
Hawkeye,

I'm not ever going to apologize for my Christian faith. I don't expect you to understand that.

I suppose you can put all faiths and those who have faith in the "delusional" looney-bin, (if you want too), but that is your prejudice, and your problem, and your short-coming, not mine.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
del, I don't have any explanation for any of this stuff, other than to say that we cannot explain some of this stuff with our current knowledge of the physical universe.

Also, while nobody has yet claimed that the theory or relativity has been debunked, I have read articles that current experiments in quantum mechanics show that on certain levels, the ToR does not operate as expected.

Like has been pointed out, my mind is "tiny" when it comes to this stuff. But when a particle moves through space, instantaneously disappearing in one spot and reappearing in another in the same instant, from what I understand, that is something traveling faster than the speed of light. Also, from what I understand, the simple movement of an electron from one orbital to the next perplexes our physical "laws" in that we don't really know how that happens.

I'm sure some folks can show where I'm wrong on this stuff, but it would not surprise me if the "laws" of physics behave differently on different planes. FWIW, I'm reading a book called The Holographic Universe, and the author claims some pretty out-there stuff, apparently based on real-life experiments.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 24, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
del cross, thanks for the info. I admit, I'm walking on thin ice with my knowledge of QM and how it relates to Einstein's theories. To really understand this stuff as a layman, it's not easy (or precise).

I've read just the first few chapters in "The Holographic Universe." I must say, it got away from me pretty fast and I lost some interest (the concept that nothing material exists until we focus our perception on it is a wild thing to imagine!). But, I might look up the book you mention, sounds interesting.

That aside, "cover ups" of the existence of UFOs will always be a slippery slope, unless a reputable government comes forth with some real evidence (which would be a pretty crazy day, IMHO). Still, I watch reports with interest, and when "clear-headed" people claim they witnessed an unexplainable sky event, it adds one more point of reference. So, I must admit that the debunking of the Free Mexican Airforce vids somewhat of a disappointment--I still await the day that a government produces reliable evidence of something unexplainable.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 24, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2010 - 08:15am PT
TGT,

Jesus never gave up. If he did we wouldn't have salvation.



Wanting to know the truth is somehow foolish? Geee, why learn anything? Why question anything? Perhaps we should all just live in our closets and turn off the lights. Why bother living at all?

No, I think I'll keep seeking the truth.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2010 - 09:00am PT
What I love most about this thread is klimmer's lack of understanding what his point is.

What he fails to understand is that he is telling the world not to ever trust Government. He says over and over they lie.

While I would agree with this sentiment I highly doubt he would agree with why I say this.

Klimmer,

Do you vote for more Government or less? Did you support the current administration who, as you say, is lying to all of us?

Do you not realize how much of a hypocrite you look like?

I laugh every time I see him bump his own thread.

Funny as hell!!!


Skip



This has got to be the most insane post by Skip.

The point of this thread is indeed very clear. To know the truth of UFO/ET presence. Is it happening or not? Do governments cover-up?

I think the overwhelming evidence says "Yes" and "Yes" to both questions.


"What he fails to understand is that he is telling the world not to ever trust Government. He says over and over they lie."

Hardly. Be critical yes, and ask questions. Hold them to account. Descent is patriotic. Make them do their elected jobs for the good of the people. Don't lie. Don't start illegal and unnecessary wars. Don't torture. The list could go on and on.

Instead of trillions for War, why not spend it on a new CCC program and put people to work? Or continue to push man into Space? Go back to the Moon. Go to Mars. Go to the Asteroid belt for resources. NASA publicly states, "It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today."
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids
Wow, we could mine NEOs and get resources at the same time. Go after the ones projected to slam into Earth one day in our future and remove them for resources. Kill 2 birds with one stone as they say. Also consider, we don't have to go far, since some NEOs go right by us between the Earth and the Moon.

Do you think our energy needs using only clean renewable energy resources and needs for resources are solvable? I think they are. And right now. We have the technology to do it. Let's do it!


There are good reasons to have good government. It can do good things. Yes, some of what the Obama administration is doing is good, and I support that. However, I do not like the continuation of the illegal practices and the continued shredding of our Constitution and Bill of Rights set-up by the Bush Admin. Why are these loss of liberties continuing? Our Constitution and Bill of Rights should be abided by. There are good people in government who are doing their jobs and serving the people and our nation. And I thank them.

Then there are those who are not. Yes, there are very secret dark areas of our government (black ops) for whatever wrong reason do perpetually exist from admin to admin with no oversight and spend enormous amounts of money. There is a list of top secret security clearance levels where the President is only mid-level and he can not even get into all the other levels above him. There are deep hidden areas within our government that are completely off the books. It is on a "Need to Know basis." That should never be. Announcing on 9-10-2001, losing 2.3 trillion dollars and waving your hand and shrugging it off with a "oh well" attitude is wrong. This cancer in our government needs to be removed.

Watch this film:
Michael Schratt -- Beyond Blue
http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_schratt/michael_schratt.html
This technology should be released to the World for the good of the people and our clean renewable energy needs rather than secretly hoarded away for dark corrupt purposes.

Hope I provided some more laughs for you (he, he, he). Sarcasm.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 25, 2010 - 10:16am PT
Great interview with Leslie Kean by PhD Michio Kaku. Really good.





Michio Kaku interviews Leslie Kean about UFOs on his radio program, Science Fantastic, September 11, 2010

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIv696A815o&feature=player_embedded#!
Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMaQg9CMJns&feature=related
Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAn-BPXeZeA&feature=related

http://ufosontherecord.com/category/blog/page/2/

Very interesting starting at the part 1: 5:30 min. mark . . . only speculating, and his hypothesis, and assuming they are here he says . . .

"Maybe they are already here ... maybe these flying saucers are probes sent out from the Mother probe sitting on our Moon."


Hey, that sounds like . . .





wait for it . . .





wait for it . . .






The Ark or Mothership on the backside of our Moon! (lol)







Science Fantastic:
http://mkaku.org/

I really like PhD Kaku's attitiude about all of this. No matter the phenomenon, he seems to be willing to look into it and get into the possible physics. He is skeptical as we all should be, but he doesn't fall into ad hominem attacks. He is curious, thinks about the possibilites, and the physics possibly involved, and respectful of his audience. Great attitude and wonderful way to be. I like him. He is in so many science videos that my students see. Always a go to kind of scientist and PhD for education videos. Awesome.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 01:37am PT
Here we go.

Prove me wrong.

These are the money shots.

The last stereogram is the best!


That massive anomaly on the backside of the Moon is a massive Mothership spacecraft. Period.


Official NASA Apollo 15 Stereograms:
Apollo 15 AS15-P-9625 (stereogram image):
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
Apollo 15 AS15-P-9630 (stereogram image):
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630





Official NASA Apollo 17 Stereograms:
Apollo 17 AS17-M-2805 stereo pair:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS17/M/2805.jpg
Apollo 17 AS17-M-2806 stereo pair:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS17/M/2806.jpg







Unofficial Apollo 20 Stereogram:




The Big Money Comparison . . .

Official Apollo 15 and Unofficial Apollo 20 stereogram:

It all lines up. All of it. The Apollo 15 was shot at more of a oblique angle and slightly different sun angle, and shadow detail. The Apollo 20 shot was taken more directly overhead, and more shadow detail. By closing the right eye and looking through the left, and then closing the left quickly viewing through the right eye, and going back and forth, all of it can be compared when using a handheld stereoscope. It all lines up. It is the same Moon surface and the same Lunar anomaly on the backside of the Moon -- A massive Mothership. You can view it in 3D. One image is higher resolution, the other less.

I'm convinced. I do not think you could make a perfect model and shoot it and match it up perfectly like it does. The craft exists.







Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Sep 26, 2010 - 01:55am PT
It's a rock.
Prove me wrong.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 01:58am PT
It is not a rock. It is a 5km long and approx. 1km wide ship.








Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 02:11am PT
Take time to learn something new. Get a pair of stereoscope glasses and be amazed. It can't be faked.

I've given you official Apollo 15 and 17 images and they are a perfect match with the unofficial Apollo 20 images. All in stereo viewing.

Once again prove me wrong.

Pull you heads out of the sand.




New word for you:


"Photogrammetry"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photogrammetry


It is a science, and part of my degree and background.
Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Sep 26, 2010 - 02:29am PT
It just happens to look like a rock and even has craters on it, and is sticking out of the ground, but it must be a spaceship?

It's a rock. Prove me wrong.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 26, 2010 - 10:04am PT
Here's the unPhotoshoped picture with the wishful shadows not added. You decide. From an Apollo 20 hoax debunking site.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 10:16am PT
You know I keep holding your hands and leading you to the water to drink but you all continually deny and refuse.

Yes, you'll need a stereoscope to see them. I gave you sources for that also (they are inexpensive; gee, you'll later be able to use them to view all kinds of other stuff on the web in 3D related to NASA, astrogeology , Mars, Moon, terrestrial geology, etc. etc.)

Once again, these are all 3D stereograms. To fake the 3D stereograms, they would have to make an elaborate perfect 3D model that perfectly matches the Lunar surface and craft. I do not see that happening. And then to do this all for an elaborate nameless hoax and no reward for doing so?

We aren't just talking a few still B&W images, we are also talking about lots of video footage that perfectly lines up with the Lunar surface from the fly over of "Apollo 20" with known official images. All of it can be compared to the official publicly released NASA Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 images. It all matches.

Faking all of that is not happening. Again from all the video, 3D stereograms can be made, just like I have done. So once again we are talking about an enormous elaborate perfect 3D model that would have had to be built. Not happening.

Some things are faked like the massive 20' or so black clay model of the craft. That is clear and easy to see.


These images are not even close to that. They are not the same. These are real in my opinion.



Skept,

I've seen that doctored image before and even have it in my collection. Try making a stereogram from 9630: that has been smoothed, shadows removed, and added false texture with its official match (9625). Not happening. In fact a key massive rock has been removed in the image you have posted. Do you know where it is? You have been had.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 26, 2010 - 10:34am PT
Listen carefully to the famous and historical public speech that Neil Armstrong gave at the White House where he talked about "removing truth's protective layers." That speech is loaded with deep (read between the lines) meaning. Since when and why does truth need to be protected? And why do we have to remove the layers protecting it? What are they hiding?

seems to be the crux of the matter for me too, klim. they're protecting their own strangehold on the power structure. you don't protect truth with lies, you only protect secrets.

we get a little glimpse of it now and then. winston churchill once referred to the dark secrets of war. pearl harbor was probably a classic.

you might try prying open the secrets of the vatican basement, klim. you might come away with a lot less faith in your bible.

looking over some of your links, i've found former moonwalking astronaut edgar mitchell to be interestingly credible. he has a phd from mit and seems to be speaking quite plainly about extraterrestials. i'd like all the loudmouth as#@&%es on this thread--and i won't mention any names--to look mitchell over and tell me why i shouldn't take him halfway seriously.

btw, just a geological note. either that photo is faked or it's a genuine something. rocks don't stick out from the ground anywhere else on the moon. there is no wind or water erosion. the only erosion which takes place is through mucho bombardment by meteors. if it's a real photo, it's a real anomaly.

i don't believe debunking sites for a minute. read debunking the debunking by david ray griffin. check that bozo thread here on ST and see what a hipshot outfit snopes is.

i'm still not convinced that humans have walked on the moon, since there is some evidence that the public was fed fake stuff during the events. some suggest the public side was orchestrated so we wouldn't be exposed to disasters. there is a real feeling up there that "the public can't take it". others say it would be impossible to survive the radiation of the van allen belt. please research this and report back.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 10:50am PT
Edgar Mitchell UFO interview on Kerrang Radio 23 july 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhNdxdveK7c

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&feature=related

Ex Astronaut PhD Edgar Mitchell Says Feds 'Know' UFOs Exist 21.4.2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlOZtfy0MwY&feature=related

Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related

NASA Gordon Cooper UFOs are visiting the Earth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkBhME9RCjc&feature=related

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin Recounts Apollo 11 UFO Encounter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlkV1ybBnHI&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related



Yes, I know the Vatican has lots of secrets, that is for sure.

The Vatican's Take on Aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gB7QhHcYIE&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Vatican Prepares World For "ALIEN CONTACT"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgGbdDwUVKk&feature=related

Vatican Seeks Alien Life Conference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxEgNKiHcaY



We have been to the Moon, no doubt. Too much evidence to say so. You can not fake the geochemistry of Moon Rocks, and we have about 380kg of them or so. But what they are quiet about is what they found there. We are not alone. We never have been alone.

It is not that we can not handle the truth, we can handle the truth. It is the classic struggle between the haves and have nots. They think of themselves as Kings, and we as Serfs.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 11:19am PT
This is a classic response from NASA regarding what PhD Edgar Mitchell said on public UK radio . . .

Nasa Response re: Edgar Mitchell interview on Kerrang Radio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSOSLC-U5cU&feature=related


Too funny.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 11:54am PT
LEB,

When I have time later today I'll type in "retiredafb's" -- CDR William Rutledge's response to that same question in an interview with Luca Scantamburlo. Eye opening.


Here it is, I found it:
http://www.angelismarriti.it/ANGELISMARRITI-ENG/REPORTS_ARTICLES/Apollo20-InterviewWithWilliamRutledge.htm




25-26) L.S. Aren’t you afraid of the U.S. Government’s reaction and why did you talk about the date of September 2007, when NASA and USAF (according to you) “will be forced to tell the whole story before September 2007” What does it mean and Who is your “deep throat”? In another recent your communication to me, you talked about the “2012” year. You said: “In 2012, the weakers will die, and governments preserve the only bit of their heritage […] everybody has to be prepared for 2012”. Is there any connection with the “Planet X” return (the ancient Nibiru, adored by the Sumerians in Mesopotamia) ? What did you know about it?

25 W.R. I'm the deep throat. What can NASA USAF do now? Blocking or suing me would be an acknowledgement. They can speak of hoax or fiction. I'm just afraid they could open a site or another account with my name or putting almost perfect false videos with voluntary errors to disinform. Fortunately, bureaucracy and time works for me. It's a race.

That's why the idea of putting the Leonov files is a good idea, no controversy anymore, there are no Leonov footage, no videos of this period of Leonov in a LM or on a USA USAF base. It is unthinkable related to the official version .

26 W.R. I am a passionate of the Sumerian period, of the Genesis as related by Sumerian. They clearly explain how gods created man. But I have no indications on Sumerian cosmogony, send me some links.

There is a question you didn't ask for and I'm always surprised that nobody does. This could be your question 27 - why is it necessary to hide UFOs, why disinformation, why putting all this under the carpet? It's question of economics. All currencies on Earth are based on the value of gold. Not many citizens know that but gold is an extraterrestrial metal coming from the death of a star. When a star is dying, its mass is growing, atoms are compressed and when the star explodes, it spreads large amounts of gold in young solar systems. That's why gold is not a mineral to treat but a perfect, carbon free metal. This mean that it is the most common substance in the universe, no more value than a piece of plastic.

That's enough to put down all world currencies. Imagine also that an EBE says: "coffee has a good taste, rare in this galaxy", the only perspective of trading coffee through universe would displace the economic power to countries of the South in one day. You see, not a problem of panic, but simply a problem of economy.

 The end of the interview -




In Supernovas, the entire Periodic Table is brought about by fusion, and only then. Earth has a fixed amount of resources. We have to go out to the asteroid belt to get more and expand our knowledge, our survival, and branch out and spread our wings. We need those resources. There are world's to explore.

"The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today."
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids


Some do not want the power structure to change. They like the way things are. The haves and have nots. It comes down to greed and the selfish desire to maintain the caste system of feudalism -- the Serfs serve the King.


A day of reconing is coming. I look forward to that day. Jesus please return quickly.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 26, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
Hey Klimmer,

Here's a job opening for you!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8025832/UN-to-appoint-space-ambassador-to-greet-alien-visitors.html
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 26, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
A day of reconing is coming. I look forward to that day. Jesus please return quickly....and smite the debunkers.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
You assume I make all this up.

No, there are many who know far more about this than me who say the same thing.

PhD Michael Heiser, PhD Chuck Missler, Phd Stephen Yulish, David Flynn and the list goes on and on. Yes, we are all men (and also women) of faith. Some see further than others.

These things, this knowledge, this technology are hid for the same reasons that the Church hid the Book of Enoch for so long, and still doesn't really recognize it. Yet, the Good Book quotes from the Book of Enoch. Knowledge is power. Those who have the knowledge and keep it from others use it to stay in power and subjugate the rest of the World.

"Nothing is New under the Sun," as the Good Book says.



I do not believe in Aliens. I know they exist and I know they are a real phenomenon. But I also know their intent and why they are here. I share that knowledge happily with whomever really wants to know. I believe and trust in GOD the Father, GOD the Son -- Jesus Christ, and GOD the Holy Ghost (The Trinity).


I do not talk about these truths in a School Public setting. It is not the place or time. We have separation of Church and State. As a teacher I gladly abide by that. But I do have my personal life. I have freedom to have faith, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights protects my freedoms as they do yours. Do you agree or disagree? Here on ST we should be open and honest, and not be afraid to be ourselves.











From PhD Michael Heiser's book "Fascade":

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 02:04pm PT

Probably not. They wouldn't like how I would handle them. I would ask for the keys to saucers and motherships, the keys to the clean renewable energy and zero-point energy technology that they have to benefit all mankind, and then I would rebuke them in Jesus's name.

How, dare they come here and violate the Laws of the Universe (The Two Great Commandments) and abduct and rape and do many other unspeakable atrocities to human kind. They are not our creators even though they want to be worshipped as such. I would tell them to "Get lost."

We have played this game before. Like I said, "Nothing is New under the Sun."
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 26, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
^^^^^^
violate the Laws of the Universe (The Two Great Commandments) and abduct and rap
Wow. Did not know that rap(ping) was breaking one of the 2 great commandments! I guess we're all pretty much fooked then, eh?
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 26, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
I'm not advocating any conspiracy at the moment, but I did video some wild stuff in Roberts Creek, BC 2 years ago. Pulsing spheres of light above a logging road about 5 or 600 feet away, below treetop level.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
Ok, last post today, I got things to do . . .

I would say my best advice is "Run Away! Run Away!" ala Monte Phython. (lol)


If you haven't seen this movie about the true abduction of Walton Travis you must:

Fire in the Sky
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3685057745653803611#

His official site:
http://www.travis-walton.com/
http://www.travis-walton.com/book.html
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 26, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
You can not fake the geochemistry of Moon Rocks ...

you can fake anything you want, klimmer, if you control major media and have a few phds. your phds versus their phds--most people just throw up their hands and say "what do i know?" then you wind up going through life in a world that doesn't make much sense. sound familiar?

there's a lot of faith in god out there, klimmer, just like you have, and the world has gotten shittier and shittier under euro-christian domination. i'm afraid i wouldn't trust your bible as far as i could throw it.

still haven't had anyone come forward to tell me what's wrong with edgar mitchell, but maybe i was mistaken about loudmouthed as#@&%es.

(ahem) any nice, polite, rational people on here care to tell me why edgar mitchell should not be believed?

A day of reconing is coming. I look forward to that day. Jesus please return quickly.

when the 1000-year millenium came around, people were expecting the end of the world then, many reportedly committing suicide. it gets so wearying waiting for the relief, klimmer. that's the disease of christianity--basically the deus ex machina position, not thinking we can and should make our own world, that "god" has to do it for us.

on a more positive note, i'm inclined to believe that bmcad is not giving us a hoax picture. it's the sort of "ufo flap" event which john keel describes so convincingly. it leaves us with credibly witnessed phenomena, unexplainable. paranormal is the best approach i can think of, but i'd like to get this mitchell character vetted out.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 26, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
I have to think that Edgar Mitchell's thoughts about space aliens are just as credible as his claims that he was cured of kidney cancer in 2004 (from afar) by remote healer Adam Dreamhealer. I personally put him right up there on par with "UFO Joe" and Wilber Allen the UFO photographer who gets his directions via mind-probe beams from hyperspace-dwelling alien civilizations.

I'm not making any of this up! Just spend a little time reading the links Klimmer posts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
"You can not fake the geochemistry of Moon Rocks ... "

you can fake anything you want, klimmer, if you control major media and have a few phds. your phds versus their phds--most people just throw up their hands and say "what do i know?" then you wind up going through life in a world that doesn't make much sense. sound familiar?

Ah, actually NO you can not. (I think even PhD Mike Bolte might back me up here.) It is empirical science. You can not fake Moon rocks. This is a big area of interest and study for me. I collect Meteorites. The geochemistry of rocks or fallen meteorites from the following terrestrial planetary bodies (Angrites (possibly from Mercury), Earth, Lunar, Mars (the SNCs), Asteroid 4 Vesta (the HEDs)) can be used to distinguish between them. A clear test to distinguish between them all is the Papike test: Fe/Mn within Olivine vs. %Anorthite within Plagioclase Feldspar. They all differ significantly. There are many tests to distinguish parent bodies of meteorites or rocks from these planetary bodies. These tests are known and the ratios of certain minerals from these tests are known, and each planetary body is unique in results for all of these tests. Not to mention the analysis of isotopes of oxygen within the minerals also will distinguish what parent body they came from. This is all measurable by any competent science team. It is empirical. It is reproducible. It can not be faked.

There are many unique ET minerals that are found within moon rocks but not within rocks from Earth. Also we can determine absolute age by radiometric dating, and many Moon rocks are older than anything we can currently find on Earth today due to the fact Earth rocks have gone through the rock cycle more than once resetting their atomic clocks. And unique surface exposures and measures of certain isotopes as a result from cosmic ray radiation is very different, I could go on and on and on.

You can not fake this. If you could then you would have many people trying, since Apollo Moon rocks are valued at $50,000.0/g, based on the cost of what it took to get there. They have special agents (men in black, lol) who just monitor NASA Moon rocks and go to recover them if some go missing.



Mike,


You would have to read the entire book to know the whole story and how it came about, since April of 2007. The personal email interviews etc. Yes, there are silly things said. There is disinfo. Even the one to do the interviews admits this, and does so throughout the book. But not all of it. Something is going on. Truth wrapped in lies. It is a big enigma. If you think that the story is peer reviewed without errors, or grammatical errors, you'd be greatly dissapointed.

Apollo 20: The Disclosure
By Luca Scantamburlo
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 26, 2010 - 10:30pm PT
Tomorrow (9-27-10) should be interesting:

Veterans Today: Retired Military Personnel To Confirm UFO Incursions at American Nuclear Weapons Sites
September 25, 2010 posted by Gordon Duff
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/09/25/retired-military-personnel-to-confirm-ufo-incursions-at-american-nuclear-weapons-sites/

Fox News: Former Military Officials to Expose UFO Threat
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4350211/former-military-officials-to-expose-ufo-threat/




Yes, I would say disclosure is happening with a little "d" at least.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 26, 2010 - 11:13pm PT
MORON ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





MORON ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







i have worked at DOD and DOE top secret installations in their emergency ops center.

if you think some dudes saw ufo's and wont report it you are delusional.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 01:51am PT
So what?


So what??????



This is what . . . (from another post)



There are places to go and things to learn and discover. I to would rather our $$$$ be spent on doing positive things rather than feeding the monster of the Military-Industrial complex. We should go back to the Moon, we should go to Mars, we need to go to the Asteroid belt. There is plenty of energy, just got to get off of fossil fuels. Clean renewable energy abounds. Oh, that's right, we can't put a meter on the Sun. Darn it all. There goes the power hold of the rich and elite on the rest of the world. We can't have that, can we?


http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids

"The asteroids that are potentially the most hazardous because they can closely approach the Earth are also the objects that could be most easily exploited for raw materials. These raw materials could be used in developing the space structures and in generating the rocket fuel that will be required to explore and colonize our solar system in the twenty-first century. By closely investigating the compositions of asteroids, intelligent choices can be made as to which ones offer the richest supplies of raw materials. It has been estimated that the mineral wealth resident in the belt of asteroids between the orbits of Mars and Jupiter would be equivalent to about 100 billion dollars for every person on Earth today."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 02:49am PT
"All currencies on Earth are based on the value of gold."

Not any more. We've been off the gold standard for a while now.


"Not many citizens know that but gold is an extraterrestrial metal coming from the death of a star."

So is lead. So what?


"That's why gold is not a mineral to treat but a perfect, carbon free metal. This mean that it is the most common substance in the universe"

No, this doesn't mean that gold is the most common substance in the universe. Nor does it mean that it's abundant on Earth. Mercury is a carbon-free metal, too. So are lead and copper. Because they are chemical elements.

If being a carbon-free metal makes gold the most abundant common substance in the universe, then it must also make mercury, lead, and copper the most abundant common substances in the universe. Obviously, this can't be true, therefore that fact alone cannot cause a metal to be the most common substance in the universe.


"no more value than a piece of plastic."

That's partially true, but not because gold is an element. It's true because the value of gold has always been what humans have placed on it. It's as meaningless as time, and always has been. Humans placed value on gold because it's hard to find on Earth.

It's still a meaningless value, but that fact doesn't make it any easier to find on Earth.



Why is it so necessary to nit pick to death a brief email to someone, in a low-key email interview? Especially, one in which are many typos and errors in english etc. If the story is true, and I don't think it is all true, but some of it is, then we are talking about an 80 year old man who lived an incredible life and adventure. USAF pilots are not known to have it all together science wise, and they will readily admit this. Read "Riding Rockets: the outrageous tales of a space shuttle astronaut" by Mike Mullane (USAF). USAF pilots come from the "planet AD" (arrested development) in the words of Mike Mullane. Great read and hilarious.



In "retiredafb's" defense:

Seems in this economy countries are desperately buying up Gold and trying to get back to that stability. China certainly is. The rich certainly are. Have you seen all the Gold ads? Gold is still very valuable in the World economy.


It is true. Many people do not know that the heavier elements above Fe come from Stars that have gone supernova. Some people think that Gold and other elements are somehow formed in normal Earth geological processes. I teach physics and Earth science. These are common misconceptions. All the elements that accreted to form Earth are ET from a supernova in our distant past before the birth of our star The Sun. There is only a fixed amount here on Earth. We are truly made of star dust, as they say.


Gold is found mostly as a native element, and mostly found uncombined chemically with other elements and minerals. The properties of Gold are well known, and have been throughout modern man's history. The uses for Gold go way beyond ornate and money. Gold is very valuable for industry in so many ways: Sensitive fine Electronics, coatings, important alloys, fine lubricants, and on and on. The demand for Gold is dramatically increasing as a result. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold

Yes, there are boatloads of Gold in the asteroid belt along with many other valuable elements. He didn't say it was the most common element on Earth. Big reason we need to mine Mars and the asteroid belt. I don't think he meant that Gold is the most common element. I think he was trying to say and mean that off Earth, nearby in the asteroid belt, there is an enormous amount available and as a result it would change the economy of the Earth. One of the primary reasons Gold is so valuable is for all of its uses, and the fact that it is rare here on Earth. The law of supply and demand. But if you could get boat loads of it from the asteroid belt, then that would significantly change things wouldn't it? It would.
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?why_asteroids

Gold doesn't have a meaningless value. It is very saught after for all of its industrial uses. No other element has Gold's unique properties, hence the fact it is an element. Nothing else like it. But if you had access to lots of it, then its value would significantly decrease. Supply and demand.

What if coffee is unique in all the Universe? Wow, then it would be highly prized!
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 27, 2010 - 03:17am PT
Ok stop all this crap right now. We're fked. I just found this about the massive ufos heading this way right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbkUkEWbN9g&feature=player_embedded#!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 09:22am PT
That is the point. In our current state of affairs it is rare and valuable. Why? Bacause right know we are told we can't get to the Motherlode so to speak. Well why not?

If the stories are true and indeed we do have the alien technology hidden away and back-engineered like so many say we do, then we can get there, and get there easily right now. The evidence for a secret off-world astronaut corp is significant. One of the big reasons the Pentagon is being so harsh on the UK gentleman Gary Mckinnon and trying to extradite him (he discovered this information when he hacked into Pentagon computers and witnessed a list of off-world astronauts). I'll have to get into that later. There is good evidence that this is true. Many sources say so. Even the NASA astonaut David Scott admits to training astronauts out here in LA, CA for a covert DOD astronaut group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon

Then many problems of energy and resources are solvable right now. And it is hidden for dark and sinister reasons from the rest of the World. Why would they do that? Power and control. The haves and have nots. Continued fuedalism. Don't upset the apple cart because they are raking in tons of money by holding down the man. Has the Wars and rumors of Wars actually worked in their favor and transfered the wealth of this country to the Military-Industrial Complex? It sure has. Our worst fears are coming true . . .

7/19/2010,
A hidden world, growing beyond control
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/articles/a-hidden-world-growing-beyond-control/



Knowledge of this technology is power and control. That is the reason to hide it away. Not because we can't handle the truth. It is because of the age-less war between the haves and have nots. Greed, money and power. They have a dark, sinister, and corrupt agenda.

That was "retiredafb's" point.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 27, 2010 - 11:33am PT
yea, seems like a healthy thread, rox. someone should do a PPD (posts per day) study to see whether there's a chance of catching that republicans-wrong thread. it has slowed, but it's so far out in front.

let's see--was gonna talk about jesus and aliens. i remember the catholic church making pronouncements on the subject back in the 60s. we have two options: either the aliens have already been saved by a divine incarnation on their home planet, or they're here to be saved by jesus. if the latter, they're finally finding what they've been questing for, scouring the galaxy for a holy incarnation.

hope they don't get distracted by buddha or mohammed or even lord krishna. maybe they're being so elusive because they're having a hard time making up their minds about the one true faith. stay tuned ...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 27, 2010 - 11:47am PT
I think we need more pictures of aliens to keep this thread jumpin'.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 27, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
uff-da. almost forgot a third option. they may have passed the original sin test and they don't require saving. that's assuming god put them to an original sin test.

how does that work, klimmer? god allows a tooth-and-claw biota to evolve and then, when the critters graduate to spirituality, somewhere between the taung child and the neanderthals i'd guess--or maybe even before the taungs--they get the garden of eden test, to eat or not to eat, and then we're on the false religion track to be superceded by monotheism and then salvationism.

you see, klimsie, the whole problem with your scenario is that YOU STILL HAVE TO BE SAVED. jesus, come baaaaaaaaaack ...
_

a few more nipples now and she'll be a real bitch.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 27, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
I find this to be a depressing thread, the longer it lasts and the more I read here. It's sad that so many intelligent people believe--I think want to believe--some really weird and far-fetched gobblygoop.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 27, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
The evidence for a secret off-world astronaut corp is significant.

!!!!!!!!!!!

I will not click this thread again. I will not click this thread again. I will not click this thread again...

But then again:
I think we need more pictures of aliens

Maybe some dominatrix nun aliens?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
I will pull together the links for the possibility of a Secret US Astronaut Corp later when I get home and I have time. There are lots of testimonial evidence as I said . . .

Checking my email, I got a notice from NOVA regarding upcoming shows and there was a link to a recent interview with Buzz Aldrin.

Now, I like the guy. He's an American hero. But he knows far more than he lets on. At times he says things that make you go huh?, and "let's the Cat Out of the Bag." He knows there are UFOs and ET. He knows.


Buzz Aldrin's Timetable for Colonizing Mars
By Peter Tyson on September 21, 2010 11:12 AM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/insidenova/2010/09/buzz-aldrins-timetable-for-colonizing-mars.html


Now, Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara the authors of the best-seller Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, would have a field-day with this interview. It is loaded with symbology. And Buzz proudly wears his 33 degree Mason ring in the adjoined image. The Masons, boy that is one mysterious private membership group if there ever was one. 2012, 50, 66, 70, it goes on and on in the article. Ever been in a Mason temple? I have for school district training for the use of the building. Also sometimes Mineral, Rock and Gem shows are there here in San Diego. The temple and adjoining building is massive. You have to be invited to join. I know I will never be. Lol.


I know we could publically go to Mars sooner. Much sooner than he suggests.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 27, 2010 - 01:37pm PT
i find you a little depressing myself, dirtbag. not much imagination, curiosity, questioning, but great dismay at others who don't share your essentially vulnerable "reality".

interesting note there, LEB. we fellas get so partial to the single pair arrangement. it becomes hypnotic.

i once knew a fellow who had an extra nipple. he was a choreographer, one of the few male heteros in that business, and he had oh so many opportunities with in-shape females. he said that when he'd confide his little secret, people would usually look at him like he was satan incarnate.

interesting that the u.n. should be taking extraterrestials seriously enough to appoint an alien ambassador "just in case". perhaps edgar mitchell is right--gearing up for a disclosure?

skeptimistic is hooked. this thread is going where neither the god nor the paranormal threads have gone before.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 27, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
Hint: when your sources of "information" on what would be truly revolutionary news items are exclusively the domain of Tin-foil hatter fringe websites, you are probably grasping at straws. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Not Bible codes, vague photos, fringe "experts", conspiracy buffs chasing shadows, etc.

And I think I'll trust the judgment about my "imagination, curiosity, questioning" of those who actually know me.

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 27, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
If life started on another planet millions of light years away, how early in the "life" of the universe could it have stated and how quickly could it have advanced? The assumptions I would make are that there was a long period in the universe when the forming of planets and solar systems was too volatile to allow for life to form and remain in existence and the assumption that evolution would take place without some god getting involved.

If there is a god and there is magic, nothing is predictable or meaningful.

I can imagine another planet with life on it and that life having things like big brains and opposable thumb things. I can even imagine them being more advanced that us by a long ways. I can't, on the other hand, imagine them having enough time from the beginning of the universe to have gotten to the point of finding a way to travel faster than light and also finding us. Oh, and also at the same time being a bunch of jerks that want to mess with our cows but not get in touch with the entire population. My imagination is just not that outrageous. There are too many things that would have to take place for this ark thing to be an alien spacecraft and not a hoax.

So where is the line between imaginative and crazy?

I can imagine alien life but I can't imagine that everything on earth is surrounded by a big conspiracy. I guess I just have no imagination.

Dave
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
I'm dying to hear something about the National Press Club meeting today. An article said that CNN was going to cover it? Anyone see something?
http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-phoenix/breaking-cnn-to-air-ufos-and-nukes-press-conference-live



How did I miss these articles? Really good:

Former Military Men Affirm UFO Activity Near Nuke Sites in Newly Released Audio Taped Interviews
Frank Warren
September 27, 2010
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/188037




Watch the NGS video at the bottom. Very interesting and very cool:
http://www.examiner.com/ufo-in-phoenix/national-geographic-to-air-ground-breaking-phoenix-lights-documentary-sunday

Did anyone see this program? I don't get NG channel. :-(



edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Sep 27, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
"The cow thing is far more likely military helicopters testing chemical munitions and dispersal methods and removing organs for later study or to conceal just what killed them."--Rokjox



Certainly possible and plausible, but one would think that it would FAR more easy and economical for the Black Ops guys to have their own cattle to experiment on--rather than travelling across the country to "poach" a few cattle from a Wyoming rancher.


It doesn't add up for them to do this, but it IS possible...
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Sep 27, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
Certainly possible and plausible, but one would think that it would FAR more easy and economical for the Black Ops guys to have their own cattle to experiment on--rather than travelling across the country to "poach" a few cattle from a Wyoming rancher.

The same goes for the aliens.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 27, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
Do aliens use cows for such purposes?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
Found a blurb on today's meeting:

'We saw a bright glowing object like an eye': U.S. airman's startling testimony about UFO encounter near UK nuclear base
By Niall Firth
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1315620/U-S-airmans-startling-testimony-UFO-encounter-near-UK-nuclear-base.html?ITO=1490

Image by CNN with "live" coverage on screen
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 27, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
Tony

You wrote: “there is no wind or water erosion. the only erosion which takes place is through mucho bombardment by meteors……………………………

Wrong answer

Solar Wind and dust.

Solar Wind: one of hundreds of volts of static electricity lurking in potentially resource-rich craters just waiting to zap an astronaut. One Solution a grounding source.

Dust: Surface is known as Regolith, a silicate. Causes erosion

Look it up.

Klimmer: Need to use or start using analytical judgments in your thinking.
No wonder the US is #25 in education.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
lost,

Try not taking personal digs. Get over yourself.

Lots of phenomenon changes the surface of the Moon:

Asteroids, meteoroids, and micrometeoriod bombardments (no meteorites technically since no atmosphere or very thin atmosphere at actual ground level of the Lunar surface)
Ejecta from the same
Surface Lunar Creep (gravity induced)
Moon quakes
Solar Winds
Cosmic Rays
Water has been found on the Moon now, so in direct sun can the water ice melt and then flow? Sure, but probably all the water ice that could do that has done it already Billions of years ago.
Aliens landing, walking around, and driving around (to include mankind :-0)
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Sep 27, 2010 - 06:05pm PT
Klimmer,

Only reason for going back to the moon now that there is water is for a permanent lunar base. But China will beat us since they have the $$$$$.

By the way you mention these ? things [Aliens] Spaceships are evil and that there is only one way of salvation,how can you be objective in your thinking.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
Here are announcements leading up to the meeting. Wow!

Ret Military Officers Press Conf To Warn UFOs Are Real & Doing Something To Our Nuclear Weapons!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7voVPsPLT1M



I haven't found the actual meeting yet. Cool though. It is happening -- disclosure.







Edit:


Because they violate the Law of the Universe, "The Two Great Commandments:"

1. "Love the LORD GOD with all Your Heart, Mind, and Soul."

2. And the second is like unto it, "Treat and Love Others as You Would Do Yourself."

"All the Laws of the prophets hang on these two Laws."



They (ETs) violate these Laws of the Universe constantly: abductions, rape, tremendous fear and evil dred experienced by those who have been abducted etc. etc. The Good Book says Lucifer can appear as an Angel of Light. You have to test the spirits to see whether they are of GOD.

Jesus Christ said this day would come, and to be ready and to watch, and not to be fooled. They will come and appear probably bearing great gifts (technology) and claim to be our creators. They are not. They want to be worshipped. They are fallen entities of GOD. They are out for the souls of mankind.

It is the only thing they can do against GOD, to try to hurt GOD, to try and rob the souls of man from him. He cries even for the fallen sparrow. They are not who they say they are. They lie as their "Father of Lies" instructs them to do. Don't be fooled.

Read the Good Book and read about Jesus's 40 days in the wilderness. It will tell you all you need to know about Lucifer and what he ultimately wants to do.

Read: The Facade, by PhD Michael Heiser.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Sep 27, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
Here’s another take on the retired SAC personnel meeting at the National Press Club:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67tg9kiKxl0

I immediately thought of you Klimmer.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
Rokjox,

That was the original Disclosure Project. Important historical milestone of its own for sure.

Sure would like to see a full run of the meeting held today . . .


Krahmes,


Thanks for posting that!

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
...and when we were discussing the twin towers you were an engineer in charge of a large building under construction somewhere.



Who would have ever thought this thread would go to 1400 posts when it started?

yes RJ, believe it or not, some people have careers. not just jobs but actually trying to do something for a living. i know, you probably would not understand.

how is that job search going? too busy on ST.com being self impotent?

i have spent time at Dugway Proving Ground. funny how people make up stuff about military installations cuz there is an aura of mysteriousness about them. sorry dude, there is nothig out there that any alien would be interested in...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
klimmer go see a doctor and get on some meds. heavy counseling whatever it takes man...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 27, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
Sorry to see that this crap is still on the front page.

At least the political thread has some relation to reality.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 27, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
Denial is a very loooooooooooong river, as they say.

Your reality is changing before your very eyes and you still don't get it.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
read this thread RJ,

who would have thought that there would be this many crackpots in the general climber population....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
by the way, i have done work at a number of military installations and then while having a beer at the local pub at night, discussing the place with locals, i heard all kinds of crackpot stories.

because people dont understand they make sh&& up that aint true.

there are enough true stories that could give you the willies that stuff doesnt need to be made up....
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 27, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
Check out the last video I posted. Its two hours long. Three are a LOT of very credible men from the military, including Captains, commanders and generals, who are saying they personally witnessed, while on duty in security sites, impossible events.
.....
Some absolutely incredible testimony, with dates, locations, names and events. A lot of data that can be confirmed is given.


What will you bet the mainstream media ignores this like a non-event.

Peace

karl
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2010 - 09:17pm PT

You are an anonymous fool, jackass and troll hawksh#t, and someday I am going to get such a rush when your identity is disclosed. You can't hide forever you worthless coward. And I am very patient.

you must be very patient to be unemployed for years now and give up on meaningful employment...course if the old lady takes care of it and you can sit home looking for respect on ST what the hell. i call dudes like you losers, oh sorry LOSER.

what are you going to do when you have my identity? celebrate with cake? get a life bitch.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 12:06am PT
Hawkeye,

Get a life and stop the ridicule.


For everyone else that actually cares . . .

Some of the meeting from today. Looks like MSM is ignoring it, although CNN was there live. Did they show it live? Someone should post up in Youtube or another.

http://www.necn.com/09/27/10/bSci-Tech-bShocking-revelation-Former-Ai/landing.html?blockID=319245&feedID=4213

(NECN: Washington) - A press conference was held this afternoon at the National Press Club in Washington, where at least a dozen former U.S. Air Force personnel, mostly officers who worked on secret projects connected to sensitive nuclear weapons sites, are admitting that they were privy to UFO and alien-related incidents -- that occurred during their time of service.

In this clip, you will hear from: Retired Air Force Captain Robert Salas, Former Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Dwayne Arneson and Former Air Force Official Bill Jameson.


The Book:
http://www.theufochronicles.com/2010/05/book-ufos-and-nukes-is-still-available.html

http://www.ufohastings.com/
Cole

Trad climber
los angeles
Sep 28, 2010 - 01:11am PT
No joke, Robert Salas, the first guy to speak in the video Klimmer posted from the news conference was my high school math teacher during junior year, some 10 years ago.

I remember very well when he told the class what happened to him at the nuclear facility. Pretty amazing stuff, especially when you hear it first hand from someone who really seems to, at the very least, believe in what he's saying. I had actually completely forgotten about him until last year when I came across a similar video where he was relating his story.

Whatever is gong on out there I obviously can't say, but it does seem like things are happening in our atmosphere that have been recorded officially that our scientist can't figure out. Or maybe they have and we're just not privy....
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 01:34am PT
I know someone wants to say it so I will take the leap:
This make Israel look like the friggin cowered little punks they are. If this is true they aint got nuthin. It's time to clean house.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 01:48am PT
Currently watching the CNN playback from the conference. thanks for the links

Extraterrestrials or multidimensionals monitoring nuke weapons and disabling them cannot be a bad thing.

To me it's suggestive that these entities are playing a much larger role in the scheme of things than we need to know about, or we would know more.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:14am PT
It's back to common sense folks. There's nothing whatsoever about our nukes that would be of remote interest to a civilization who had learned to access and control the near infinite levels of energy necessary for time travel. There is nothing unique or really particularly interesting about a nuke or any spectral component of its yield. Then there's the issue of why f*#k with just a couple of them? And why, in thousands upon thousands of 'ufo reports' wouldn't one land in Central Park or on the Mall, set up a couple of chairs, and chat?

Pretty ridiculous and, this 'event' as all the others, not a wit of evidence or common sense on display.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:32am PT
Healyje:

By definition God is an extraterrestrial

If extraterrestrials have been pulling the strings and nurturing life on earth since consciousness began, revealing themselves would be counter productive to the journey our souls embark upon while we are here.

The suggestion that the challenges we face, and the path we take to solve them, determines where we go from here, is a basic premise of most religions.

Afterlife implies a before life as well.

Why would the gods intervene in their grand scheme of life unless it was to prevent their whole system from being blown sky high by some bad actors with nukes ?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:51am PT
To be honest, the mixing of pseudo-scifi with pseudo-christianity just further dilutes and somewhat demeans both. It's like two bad crutches, each shaky and relying on the other for support. It also seems rather desperate as well.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:03am PT
Healyje you asked why they care about nukes. Thats my answer. ET as gods goes back to Eric Von Daniken, many variations on the theme since then

Stzzo, ET drawing a line in the sand re total nuclear annihilation of the many species in the sandbox they created is pretty reasonable. In the MAD scenario virtually no-one is left to determine their own destiny, as an individual, which was the crux of the thesis I stated above.

yes the recent video is worth watching actually
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:23am PT
So just how does 'alien stewardship' fit into the whole god and jesus stewardship thing? Is jesus an interdimensional, craft-flying dude now?
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:04am PT
the major religions are a cover story to provide a "best practices guidebook" to life for those whom really need guidance.

The challenges presented to you in this life are partly determined by your conduct in a previous iteration, as does your conduct now determine where you go from here. Which is why life can seem so unfair.

The brain is a control panel for the body, the body a container for your soul. Getting a defective control panel or container is just another challenge for the soul to prove itself.

ET mingling with humans and dropping in technology overtly isn't going to assist with life here, nor is it part of their operations manual. Life on earth is about humans over coming problems. Hard knocks and epic situations test what and who you are / will be.

The government is in the dark, military industrial less so, as they have been tossed a few bones like crashed discs with a bit of technology to reverse engineer.

We are supposed to be in the dark about UFOs and ET, and we always will be.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:08am PT
I.E., it's still your basic 'original sin' story and the idea 'someone' [else] has to be in charge.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:20am PT
you are in charge, of your destiny, which the higher ups (ETs), facilitate the iterations of, no one single being is directly pulling all the strings. Multi levels of ET hierarchy and roles.

Regardless what ever story floats your boat regarding the origins of life on earth doesn't really matter does it ?

Including this one I've just told, except it accounts for the aloofness of UFO/ET mystery, which is why I like it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:23am PT
Except that you have to buy into the the whole Samsara deal, which is yet another religious story.

Bottom line is, no amount of talk will ever convince me gods exists or aliens have ever achieved time travel, let alone visited us who have only existed for a cosmic nanosecond. The day either shows up in a public venue willing to talk, or there exists otherwise indisputable evidence, then it's all just tabloid journalism of a type that tends to sully good sci-fi.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:55am PT
Exactly Healyje, as I said earlier, We are supposed to be in the dark about UFOs and ET, and we always will be.

You demonstrate my case beautifully.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 05:15am PT
Except you have no case to demonstrate. It's the old adage: "what do god, ufos, sasquatch, and the loch ness monster all have in common?". The answer? Nothing - they don't exist. You might as well say the exact same thing about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy who are equally credible by your logic.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 09:51am PT
Between Leslie Kean's Book:
UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record
http://ufosontherecord.com/


And Robert Hasting's Book:
UFOs and Nukes: Extraordinary Encounters at Nuclear Weapons Sites
http://www.ufohastings.com/BookPage.html

If you haven't watched the video from the NPC meeting in Washington DC on 9-27-10 then you must. Watch the whole thing:

http://blip.tv/play/AYH_7AoC


A serious line has been drawn in the sand. These 2 books and all the associated actions: expert eye-witness testimony and panels, interviews, many have, and many more people willing and able to go on the record. The UFO incidents continue to occur, they haven't stopped.

We know they are here. We have the evidence from multiple hard documented sources and people in the know who had the jobs to know, and for each UFO episode and incident indicated with the hard facts, including radar signatures and more. You can't dispute this. You can, but you will look like a fool now. They have been told to hush-up about it by the NSA, CIA or other inside US gov agencies. We know the US government has been covering this up for 60+ years. The lying and the cover-ups have to stop. We have a right to know.

Who they are and what their intent is can be debated. I don't think you really can debate anymore whether they are here or not. THAT IS HUGE. YOU CAN NOT DENIE IT. TO DO SO, THEN YOU ARE COVERING UP AND LYING.


Some of us from a Christian perspective feel we know. And I've indicated those Christian PhD scholars by name before. It was foretold in the Good Book thousands of years ago that this would happen . . .

Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah . . ." You have to read the Good Book and the Book of Enoch to know what Jesus meant.




The US Government is going to have to respond. They are looking dumber and more and more corrupt by the minute.


LET IT OUT. ADMIT IT IS HAPPENING. APOLOGIZE FOR THE 60+ YEARS OF COVER-UPS; RELEASE THE TECHNOLOGY TO HELP THE WORLD; STOP THE WARS AND RUMORS OF WAR; GET ONTO CLEAN RENEWABLE ENERGY RESOURCES; GO TO THE MOON, MARS AND MORE; AND ASK ET TO LEAVE US ALONE. THEY CAN CONTINUE TO WATCH, BUT STOP INTERFERING. ALL ABDUCTIONS MUST STOP IMMEDIATELY. ABIDE BY THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE (THE 2 GREAT COMMANDMENTS).


"Blessed Be The Peace Makers . . ."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:22am PT
I'm not going to believe a stitch of this nonsense until an ET personally comes to my house for tea.

And it's time that our service men stop drinking coffee. Look at what it's doing to them.


Maybe somebody can tell me, how come there are so many different types of flying crafts in the UFO sightings?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:45am PT
Klimmer, my father and brothers are retired military / test / commercial pilots. My father started in biplanes and finished in 747s and saw everything from nuke tests to Mt. St. Helens go off. My older brother flew around the world once or twice a month for his whole career with Flying Tigers / Fedex. There are no ufos.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:51am PT
Pretty good fake:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIEbcmFzICE&p=52080F9C0CC443A2

"my father and brothers are retired military / test / commercial pilots. My father started in biplanes and finished in 747s and saw everything from nuke tests to Mt. St. Helens go off. My older brother flew around the world once or twice a month for his whole career with Flying Tigers / Fedex."

Now there's some authority!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
Klimmer, my father and brothers are retired military / test / commercial pilots. My father started in biplanes and finished in 747s and saw everything from nuke tests to Mt. St. Helens go off. My older brother flew around the world once or twice a month for his whole career with Flying Tigers / Fedex. There are no ufos.


HJ,

That is classic. "There are no UFOs."

Yes, and the Universe doesn't exist. Our Galaxy doesn't exist. Our Solar Sytem doesn't exist. Earth doesn't exist. Mankind doesn't exist. You don't exist.

Too funny.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
You post up obvious, and badly done, fakes in videos in an attempt to persuade me and others which talk about the experiences of pilots. All I have to do is grab my phone and I have first-hand access to several lifetimes of aviation experience that spans seventy years around the globe by guys who have seen it all.

Total and complete tripe. Yeah, exactly - ufos, sasquatch, nessie, ghosts, santa claus, and the tooth fairy all don't exist.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
"guys who have seen it all."

I doubt that very much.

Talk about tripe.

[ed}

healyje, the minute you claim to know everything, you show how little you know.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
Tons of sorta crazy stuff is out there on this topic, and there is crazy stuff out there on political topics as well.

ON the other hand, there's plenty of Hard evidence that Bush went to Iraq lying about it and knowing there weren't WMD, and yet we do nothing about that and ignore it.

So people won't accept proof when they don't care to have their views shaken, even if it's there.

Peace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
Oh, and dragons and unicorns, they don't exist either. Damn sad I know, especially the dragons.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
"So people won't accept proof when they don't care to have their views shaken, even if it's there."

Karl, so very true.


healyje, you know hundreds of people who claim they saw: unicorns, dragons, Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, Sasquatch, etc?


Explain to me the phenomena of the Phoenix Lights, where there were hundreds, if not thousands of witnesses.

Maybe a phone call to one of your family members can explain it. After all, they have seen everything.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:31pm PT
Yes, they have in fact seen thousands of flares between the three of them.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
Flares? I guess you haven't read much about the phenomena.

A mind, so powerful, yet so useless when closed.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
You post up obvious, and badly done, fakes in videos in an attempt to persuade me and others which talk about the experiences of pilots. All I have to do is grab my phone and I have first-hand access to several lifetimes of aviation experience that spans seventy years around the globe by guys who have seen it all.

Total and complete tripe. Yeah, exactly - ufos, sasquatch, nessie, ghosts, santa claus, and the tooth fairy all don't exist.


HJ,

Your responses (ad hominem attacks and ridicule) are laughable. Any fakes I've posted I have called them out as such and for a reason, to call them out, and to figure things out publically.

You have a very short memory. You are not argueing with me. You are argueing with many Nations now who have disclosed their records, Generals and other Military Officers, NASA employees, NASA Astronauts and "Moonwalkers", Government officials, and tons of FOIA released documents and hard evidence of multiple detection by multiple sensing modes and RADAR signatures.

My Father-in-Law was retired USAF and flew tons, C-130s for PJs. He didn't know about this either. Countless talks and discussions about this before he passed away between he and I. I love the man, but he didn't know. I wish he could see these disclosures and these 2 books now released, and these public testimonies through the NPC for the World to know. I think he would change his mind.

When ET affects our Nuclear installations and nuclear armament then that is another issue altogether. He would have been concerned hearing their testimonies and evidence now released.

The US Government has been painted into a corner that it can not get out of until it comes clean and admits the truth that is already known by the rest of the World.

You don't have a leg to stand on. UFOs are here. They have been here for a very long, long time throughout mankinds's history.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
You don't have a leg to stand on. UFOs are here. They have been here for a very long, long time throughout mankinds's history.

they are watching you right now and if you persist they might abduct you, better hide under your covers!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
Yes, Pate, why don't you edit the entire internet and fix all grammar and spelling errors, because that is what truly matters.

Could you please get on that. Thanks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
When ET affects our Nuclear installations and nuclear armament then that is another issue altogether.

That would be should it ever happen, but nothing released this week constitutes a shred of credible evidence that it did. Same old story - lots of talk and no evidence. Again, is there some good reason god and aliens don't just appear and set up shop on Times Square, Venice Beach, or the Mall and just chat with normal Earthlings. And what about that stewardship question? How do you square alien and jesus stewardship?
doktor_g

Social climber
Mt Shasta, CA
Sep 28, 2010 - 12:59pm PT

JFK was killed precisely 4000 years after the earth was formed by the great creator by robot alien mob conspiracy that was actually an attempt to cover up the salvage operation which was to recover the robot alien mob space craft mentioned on the post above which was complicated by the Zaruda film now doctored such that anyone who watches it is mind washed and believes that organic food is actually organic but in fact is created by the all seeing all knowing creator that fractured four millenia ago and became crystal spores and sandal wood. It's all in the bible. Go ahead. Look for yourself. Its all there plain as day.

DrG
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
Pate,

Are you at work?

I have time in a school day: before school, prep period, in between classes, and after school. Time to check emails, take phone calls, make phone calls etc. etc. ST, is just another window on the computer.

Sorry you are so threatened by truth. Sad really.

Apparently, you think teachers are lecturing 24/7 and don't have time for anything else. We wear multiple hats. Have to. It is called multi-tasking. Can you walk and chew gum? Maybe you can't? I don't know.
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
healyje, I take offense that you keep adding sasquatch to your list. I witnessed these beings up in the Yukon & all the natives know about them as well. We were 13 or more K's out in the bush up in the middle of the territory. And I dont care if anyone believes me. It's a good memory for me.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:36pm PT
Wonder - well, I'm sure someone else is offended I put nessie on the list and yet scads of other folks incensed about leprechauns.
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
Oh yeah, and faries, dont be messing with the faries either. And dragons, they'll be back, mark my words.
cheers
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 28, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
JFK was killed precisely 4000 years after the earth was formed by the great creator by robot alien mob conspiracy

Oh dooood! You'd better find a good hiding place. They're gonna be looking for you now. You know they can't let that stuff leak out!
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:01pm PT
If you are a voice of reason, mind your manners and keep your own counsel. If you are a three letter agency troll...consider yourself identifiable by obsessive rude postings (i.e. what you call "doing your job").

Seriously?

You think FBI, CIA, FU2, BFD, WTF might be trolling here?

Really?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
That's right, because our government is just so good at keeping secrets.

Hey, I prepared the daily joint intelligence briefings for the senior staff of the Seventh fleet for a year sourcing materials from every intelligence agency in our government and I can unequivocally state the majority of it was complete crap written by guys who might as well be spraying in this thread or writing for soldier of fortune magazine. Aside from just plain bad writing and terrible analyses, 99% of it was bullshit that was making the rounds from one agency to the next like a bad piece of chain mail. Most of what passes for 'intel' wouldn't make it through a Journalism 101 course on fact checking.

Disinformation Specialists? On UFOs? Right, that's a good one. Ya gotta wonder who's working the fairie desk at the NSA this morning - poor sot.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
I just hope the aliens are hot and horny. I've heard about the sex experiments, I'd like to try myself.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
Well, not the most honest coverage but MSM is talking about it . . .


WASHINGTON, D.C., Sept. 28, 2010
Ex-Air Force Personnel: UFOs Deactivated Nukes
Say Reports of Unexplained Lights in Sky Near Missile Sites Corresponded With Mysterious Shut-Downs of ICBMs
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907702.shtml?tag=stack






You know someone has really gotten a hold of that CIA memo that mentions to ridicule, to scorn, and to laugh always, regarding UFOs/ETs. Lots must have read it as they do abide by it, but then most aren't paid to do so. Most aren't on the CIA pay roll. Most just do it for free. Sad.





HJ,


Is there anything you haven't done? Geeeeeee. Your a real "James Bond" kinda guy. You've got "real" connections too. Perhaps you can work out the Grand Unifying Theory for PhD Michio Kaku.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Just stating the facts. I grew up a scifi junkie in a family of pilots and was a photographer for two tours to Vietnam - the second as staff photographer to the Commander who served as Intel Chief of the Pacific Fleet. I put together the daily briefings he gave to the senior staff. As I said, 99% of it was crap, day-in, day-out.

And credible testimony from a missile officer making public commentary on any such activities would at most be stated something along the lines of: 'the appearance of atmosphic anomonolies (or unidentified aircraft) concurrent to unscheduled maintenance events or an unplanned non-operational status of the facility'. Beyond that you're talking fliberty-jibbets and flakes if the nuke officers I've met are any indication.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
get over yourself healyje
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
just to give you an idea how it works, healyje, check out a fellow named ray mcgovern, a career cia analyst. mcgovern loved his job at cia headquarters. he studied what was going on all over the world and prepared forthright intelligence briefings for, among others, president george bush sr., whom he counted a personal friend. that's honest intelligence, and if you've been involved in it, you can be lulled into the illusion that the system works and has a basic honesty to it. mcgovern thought so--until a few years ago. then he found out how the honest info is used by the dishonest.

now check out operation northwoods, a 9/11-style operation cooked up by the joint chiefs of staff, approved by secretary of defense robert mcnamara--the brain without a conscience--and finally nixed by jfk because jfk didn't think it was ethical to be attacking our own people and blaming it on cuba in order to justify an invasion of cuba. you can bet that none of the peewees doing the honest work on the bottom rung knew about that at the time. the public didn't find out until just a few years ago, under the freedom of tardy information act.

these are facts here, nothing tin-hatted about it. in fact, you kinda have to put on a tin hat in order to ignore it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
Hey, I know more about the intel world than the lot of you combined can even speculate about and I'm telling you, you are imbuing them with way more competence than exists. What passed for 'Intelligence' during the Bush administration should tell you just how bad it is and gets. And then Rumsfeld and Cheney's 'best minds' in intelligence botched every piece of manufactured intel they produced. There wasn't a single piece of intel to come out of Doug Feith's office that wasn't immediately discredited by any number of folks.

You guys are like the mob with pitchforks trying to get the moon out of the pond.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:42pm PT
"Hey, I prepared the daily joint intelligence briefings for the senior staff of the Seventh fleet for a year ..."


Just goes to show, you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Here's the real clue though: "99% of it was bullsh#t."

This guy knows real crap when he sees it, yet still he's good enough in his job to just keep passing that sh#t on. But boy, one arrogant sob. A little too self-important, I'd say.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
My job was just to assemble the daily briefing - I had no say in what was presented. In fact, the old Chief who ran the lab would always tell me - 'just look at it, don't read it'. Given the quality of it all I should have taken his advice. As I said 99% of it was crap. I know you wish it had all been more interesting and factual, but that sadly wasn't the case.

K-man - I love how you hang the truth on bullshit from a million random sources and attempt to claim what a fellow climber is telling you firsthand is something less than truthful. Such is the mindset and logic on display here. You guys are operating almost identically to the tea party with regard to rabid bias and believing pretty much any pablum fed you.

P.S. and in 1973 not once in any daily briefing were the words 'alien' or 'ufo' spoken once by any member of the senior Seventh Fleet staff who had complete command over the entire Pacific ocean and the airspace above it. Bummer.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
And I think of the three, Pate is the only one who has ever been a real climber, as opposed to someone who got short roped to the top of some third class chosspile.

good one RJ, hope it makes you feel better. you never saw the day you could climb what my left nut could by itself.

of course when you have given up on a productive life what else can you do but spew hot air on ST all day?

All they got is personal attacks far off the topic to divert attention from the fact they have really nothing to say.

just how much do the taxpayers pay you for your unemployment you receive? you on welfare and foodstamps too? you give all those guys a bad name being on that list since you are a genuine loser.

and yes, i pride myself not to have anything constructive to say on a thread titled Massive Ark on the Moon....you and klimmer need a rubber room together...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
Machines, including missiles and aircraft don't go "UN OPERATIVE" without a root cause - that's why we call it 'mechanical engineering', 'chemical engineering' and 'physics' - there are no magic from space or anywhere else that will do anything to a missle silo that can't be traced to a root cause. If they were hit by an EMP they'd have been able to hold burnt out electronic boards in their hands, etc. Again, there is no magic or voodoo dust for anyone, including aliens to use to disable missile silos without a readily evident root cause.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:19pm PT
healyje, I really don't want to cross sabers, you seem like a jolly good fellow. However, you say this:

"K-man - I love how you hang the truth on bullshit from a million random sources and attempt to claim what a fellow climber is telling you firsthand is something less than truthful."

The fact is, I have talked face-to-face with good friends about things they witnessed first hand. I know they did not make this stuff up. So, I'm not "hanging with a million random sources," I'm looking at what is being presented, and judging from those presentations.

I am not quick to dismiss hundreds of people's eye-witness testimonies about the Phoenix Lights, and I believe them to be more than mere flares.

For example:

In an interview with The Daily Courier in Prescott, Arizona, Arizona Governor Fife Symington III said, "I'm a pilot and I know just about every machine that flies. It was bigger than anything that I've ever seen. It remains a great mystery. Other people saw it, responsible people. I don't know why people would ridicule it". Symington had earlier said, "It was enormous and inexplicable. Who knows where it came from? A lot of people saw it, and I saw it too. It was dramatic. And it couldn't have been flares because it was too symmetrical. It had a geometric outline, a constant shape."
...
Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation."

Not that the Governor of AZ has anything to loose by stating he saw a UFO.

The new UFO book, cited above, has testimonials from high military brass, things that are on the official record.

So yeah, millions of "random" sources, as opposed to the sources that you site: family who have seen "all." Now, who would you give more credit to, an Air Force Officer and Governor of AZ, good friends, or somebody that goes by "healyje" on an internet forum?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
So yeah, millions of "random" sources

wow, millions! Pictures? any piece of evidence?

i get it, its like the movies where if ET lands, hte military locks him up and takes him to one of those secret installations to keep things quiet...
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
"Pictures?"

There are lots of pictures of UFOs. Many, many of the Phoenix Lights.


But what difference do pictures make, you wouldn't give them credit unless you took them yourself.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
And you find this to be a credible video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIEbcmFzICE&p=52080F9C0CC443A2
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
HJ and other doubters and debunkers (does the position come with a dental plan?),

Once again . . .


If you haven't watched the video from the NPC meeting in Washington DC on 9-27-10 then you must. Watch the whole thing:

http://blip.tv/play/AYH_7AoC


If you don't then you can't say squat.

I've watched it and recorded it. I'll probably watch again soon and take notes. There was a great part in the discussion near the end, where one of the gentlmen painted the US Government into a corner brilliantly . . .


You can not have it both ways:

1) On the one hand the US government says nothing too UFOs, and if there was something happening, they haven't been a threat.


2) On the other hand, these incidents do happen, nuclear sites are affected and shut-down at will by UFOs/ETs, not just here in the US but in other countries. CIA and the NSA come in and investigate and have the US Armed Force soldiers and officers sign non-disclosure statements and are told to not ever speak about it and sometimes even threatened.



Paraphasing from memory (I'll have to get it right later):

"You can not have it both ways. So what is it? What are we supposed to do and say? These things don't happen and there is nothing too UFOs? Or we aren't supposed to talk about what is happening after signing non-disclosure statements? So which is it?"

Both are lies.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
Is the Turkey TV real?

It would be hard to hide that video from the masses if it were real. Still, I don't know how easy it would be to fake that. With film, you can verify the negatives and all. These days, with digital, you can fake just about anything. Take a look at my alien picture above... Even LEB was questioning the authenticity of those babys!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 05:20pm PT
The Turkish tape is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

a) These enormous craft can travel either inter-galactically or intra-galactically and still physically / structurally enter our atmosphere?

b) Can travel and hover in our atmosphere with no visible means of propulsion?

c) What exactly do you suppose was the intent of the alien fleet commander?

d) Were they just sight-seeing for the day?

e) Pretty stupid en masse move for 'secret stewards'?

f) Why not simply stick around long enough to say hi so long as they're in the neighborhood?

g) If you believe those craft are real then I would hope you would think this is the only one and true real UFO tape. Because I would hope you would think the odds of multiple alien civilizations expending the material resources of their planets conquering time travel in order to come here in the span of your lifetime would be too high even for you.

h) And if these are the one true UFO why wouldn't all the other tapes and films be showing these same crafts? As it is, ufo designs are a dime a dozen. Either there are lots of different visiting alien civilizations, or one alien civilization with a sh#t load of toys.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2010 - 05:25pm PT
Pate,

You can look up my credentials you know this. Should I remind you not to post them???

Pretty straight foward day today. Picture Day for the students in all Physics and ES classes. And they got to see more of "NGS: For All Mankind." Awesome DVD if you haven't seen it. Lots of questions from the students about the US going to the moon just 41+ years ago. Incredible. Sad we have to look back to such an incredible venture. Why not now?

And no I do not talk about the Mothership on the backside (lol).

Somethings students are not ready for, or the World for that matter (lol).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
Why not now?

In a word? "Moondust."
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
The Turkish tape is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

healyje, to me, it seems you're trying to apply your world view onto something we know *nothing* about. If indeed those crafts are real (which I view as highly unlikely), then we can make no assumptions about what, why, how, etc. If they are real, then we have to be content with "is." You are smart enough to understand that.

Why they don't land and have tea? Well, why should they? What is their purpose? How on Earth (and I mean that literally) should we know.



But humor me for a minute--I quoted the Governor of AZ on the Phoenix Lights. Can you choose from the following list what you believe is going on, and why do you feel that way:

a) He is a blithering psycho and knows not what he's talking about.
b) It is not a real quote, the Governor never said any such things about the Phoenix Lights.
c) He was high at the time he saw the lights.
d) He mistook high-altitude flares for a large aircraft (even though he knows what the flairs look like).
e) Other.

TIA...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 28, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
And yet, that is EXACTLY what the crewmember of an entire flight of nukes that he was in CHARGE of says happened. No burned out circuit boards, no radiation that was noticeable.

When I'm in charge of anything and it doesn't work, I'm going to blame aliens.

This is the dumbest thread on Supertopo ever.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
Or

f) He's a publicity whore

g) He's now making money off the ufo thing - see wiki

Or

h) He's a liar

Later, Symington was indicted on charges of extortion, making false financial statements, and of bank fraud. He was convicted of bank fraud in 1997. As Arizona state law does not allow convicted felons to hold office, Symington resigned his office on September 5, 1997.[6]
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 06:32pm PT
OK, he made money from it:

On November 9, 2007, Symington appeared with a panel of guests discussing their UFO experiences on Larry King Live. A few days later, on November 12, Symington acted as moderator for a UFO press conference at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C. Other speakers included U.S./foreign military witnesses/public officials involved in some major UFO cases, such as the 1980 Rendlesham Forest incident, 1990 Belgium UFO incident, and 1976 Tehran UFO incident, and heads of some official foreign government UFO investigations, such as Nick Pope in the U.K. and Claude Poher of France. They said the phenomenon was quite real, should be taken seriously, and urged that the U.S. reopen its public UFO investigation.[15]

Symington also appeared as a witness of the Phoenix Lights in an updated version of the 2002 UFO documentary Out of the Blue by filmmaker James Fox. Fox helped organize the witness panels for both the Larry King show and followup National Press Club event.[16]

Like, he went on to organize and moderate UFO press conferences. Wow, what an inglorious money grubber, he went on to organize UFO events after having witnessed a large event himself.

Until a UFO lands in your front yard and the ETs get out and have tea with you, you will continue to look the other way. That is fine. However, there are thousands of creditable witnesses, photos, and other types of evidence. Yet I can understand people's unwillingness to believe any of it--it's a though nut to swallow.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
Hey, when there are thousands of ufo sightings and many of them purported crafts in and above our cities, it would suffice if one of them simply landed in a public place and said hello. None of our languages should be a barrier of any kind for a civilization which can decipher time travel - so being able to communicate can't be the issue. And golly, if they're interested enough in us to care about our nukes, which can't possibly threaten them, then you'd think they'd be interested enough to communicate with us.

But no, just like our gods, there's always some excuse or rationale why simple, direct, public appearances and communication just can't happen.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
The rational could well be that we're not ready for contact with them, that our collective civilization doesn't want to be interfered with at this point so they leave us at arms' length, just letting us know they are around so we can make the choice when we're ready and need help.

That's the cosmic rules I'm told. We're babies here and have to grow up enough to want to join the big party

peace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
I suppose that could be a rationale for one alien civilization who invested big to come here - how about all the other alien civilizations implied by the plethora of crafts? They all decided to spend bazillions of whatever their currencies / resource measures are to just come hang out and peek? Sure, I almost believe that. A real flock of angels in spacecraft. And they didn't leave a cell# so we could get a hold of them in a time of need? What are we supposed to do, mow down some corn?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
There IS a small difference between your flat bottomed rowboat with a trolling motor, your worn out Chevy, and a billion dollar nuke launching silo with all the fail safe, triple redundant engineering built into it that the minds of ten thousand educated specialists with unlimited budgets can stack in one place.

Incredibly sophisticated and with many thousands parts, all supplied and assembled by the lowest bidder. And fail safe, just like the space shuttle and Apollo 1 and 13.

The technology may be different but human psychology is the same.

I'm blaming aliens.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
There IS a small difference between your flat bottomed rowboat with a trolling motor, your worn out Chevy, and a billion dollar nuke launching silo with all the fail safe, triple redundant engineering built into it that the minds of ten thousand educated specialists with unlimited budgets can stack in one place.

Let's look at all of this "fail safe, triple redundant engineering" from the "minds of ten thousand educated specialists with unlimited budgets."

This is the technology (ICBM's) that we are talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNsJUmFrUCA
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
Healy, I find it amusing how you're wondering "if they are here, why don't they think like me?"
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:51pm PT
the life on earth experiment has run amok, why would any race that sophisticated want any direct contact with blood thirsty humans ? they see us maim and kill each other. Its truly not safe here, is my personal experience.

They came this far, staying out of harms way is logical

I agree with Karls rational too
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
granite, those are some kool fireworks! Gosh, those rocket scientists must be idiots.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
Well K-man, if the 'crafts' in the Turkish video are to be believed then they show enough architectural features and flight dynamics to make some assumptions.

Advanced propulsion systems
Advanced material science
Advanced structural engineering
Advanced avionics
Advanced computer controls
Advanced energy use / reuse
Advanced life support systems
Advanced communications

That's enough to assume they think and think within the confines of a certain logic. That they didn't annihilate themselves before coming means they had some amount of common sense - so yes, I expect them at a minimum to use some basic logic and common sense.

So again, you're an alien civilization which has conquered infinite energy and time travel and you spot a planet with life.

So you decide to visit it, why?

But you do decide to visit and discover it habitable and inhabited by billions of a sentient species with digital electronic, computing, and flight capabilities. And you have nothing to say to them after making the trip? Just hang it out and flash them and split without a word.

Got it, next.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
"Gosh, those rocket scientists must be idiots."

No, but some of the people who end up "in charge" of the technology they develop are. The scientists find the real problem and fix it.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
After visiting this planet Earth, I would split without a word too.

Nothing but cavemen here throwing rocks at each other in so called "Advanced Forms",

They're still cave men predominately even though they've manipulated the material energy in various ways because on this planet earth we are still at the the stage of hucking rocks at each other and pounding each other over the heads with clubs.

Just plain stupid .....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
And they had to come anywhere near our planet, let alone all the way into our atmosphere to figure out we're cavemen? Given we've been steadily broadcasting our caveman status for about a 70 lightyear radius that doesn't make the aliens sound all that bright either.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 28, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
Who knows about time travel. From our perspective, that might be necessary, but again it might not be.

But suppose they have a handle on it, and they've actually zipped a bit into our future and know when is the best time for tea.

In any case, if the crafts are real and are inhabited by beings, I think we can make few assumptions about their motives and what their plans are.

Obviously they aren't here to conquer or take our resources.

But, just maybe, they are waiting to see how the NFL season progresses. They probably have a fortune bet on the Dolphins winning it all.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
Just remember Joe.

Not everyone in this Universe thinks like you.

There are much more advanced folks then you have any clue to.

They don't waste their time with cavemen .......
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
They obviously have been according to these guys.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
And I ain't worried about how well your balls climb, because you have no balls. The only thing I want from you, chickenhawk, is for you to get your sh#t face close enough to mine that I can beat hell out of you. If you have those balls, give me your name and location, and I will email you with the location of a suitable gym.

I'd PAY to punch you up.

dude, if i thought you were worth more than what i just flushed down the toilet, you wouldnt have to pay.

you brought up my climbing skills or are you too stupid to remember what you wrote?

get a life bitch...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
One note - when I say time travel, I just mean getting from point A to point B, not traveling into the past or future. Just traversing the distances involved amounts to time travel unless you are talking it taking generations of aliens to make the trip. Who knows? Maybe that's the case and they simply forgot what they were going to say when they got here.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:31pm PT
Guessing won't help .....
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
folded space, white holes. Is space entirley linear ?

we are limited to a 3 dimensional geometry, but extraterrestrials and others may have access to additional dimensions which shorten distances or time spent traveling. Including Bigfoot. lol ...

Can you loosen up on the hating boys ?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
i'd like to hear the bigfoot story. just put on an extra layer of hide.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
folded space, white holes. Is space entirley linear ?

That would all fall under the definition of 'time travel'. Anything you can do to short circuit the amount of time it would otherwise take to travel across many lightyears of space is by definition a form of time travel. No hatin' going on at all.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
Guessing won't help .....

And you know that by guessing? Is that a gut feel thing or do you have the inside track with a cute Vimana pilot?
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 28, 2010 - 10:35pm PT
HJ you're not the hater, no worries

Wonder sez:
healyje, I take offense that you keep adding sasquatch to your list. I witnessed these beings up in the Yukon & all the natives know about them as well. We were 13 or more K's out in the bush up in the middle of the territory. And I dont care if anyone believes me. It's a good memory for me.

No need for secrets Wonder, half a dozen or so STopians have shared a Sasqutch eye witness account, including me. We would love to hear yours .....

Edit: Have you ever had a bigfoot encounter ?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1025337&msg=1241773#msg1241773
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
Ok give me a minute, I'm a slow typer, but i use more than 2 fingers.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
How about we keep Sasquatch on the Bigfoot thread and Ufos over here and god on her own thread...
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
In 1996 I had gone up to the middle of the Yukon to a small native fishing camp along the Yukon River named Minto. South of Pelly's crossing half way to Dawson. I had driven up there in my old '72 Dodge Charger all the way from Vancouver Island.
I was there picking Morel mushrooms for the summer as there was a huge fire the summer before. Like 160,000 hectors. It had jumped the Yukon river on covered alot of trackless bush.
Late in the season I was running with some young natives and I decided to go with out to this camp they had made about 13 or more klicks oout in the bush. We rode out there on their 4 wheelers & spent more than 2 weeks out here living on moose meat & pancakes.
They asked me as we were riding out there if I had seen them yet. Seen who? Youknow, the bigfoot.
No and I didnt care to either. I just wanted to make some more money off my mushrooms before the end of the season.
Ok to make the short story long. One day as i was walking along a moose trail I looked down and there were bigfoot tracks bigger than shite. I couldn't believe it. No way, trick of the sun or something. I flagged it off and kept hiking farther out. Not much luck that day finding shrooms. So i thought I would go back and find those prints . Yep they were right there, big as ...
You know all day I felt as if there were something around. I'm way out in the bush and all alone. There's nothing and nobody out there. So i get back to camp late and tell my native friends my story and their eyes got big and they said, "There here".
That night it was a quiet night around the campfire. Just sitting there and we heard them. Like a family singing. Not just like animals. Like singing. Nothing like I have ever heard before or since. And not like for 5 min. Like for 30 min. I have heard alot of animals all over the world but nothing like this. We all looked at each other and we just knew. Me & 3 other guys & 1 girl.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. I dont care if any one believes my story or not, it's one of my greatest memories in life. I saw their footprints and heard them singing.
Cheers
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
Again!

Guessing won't help.

For a guy who knows absolutely nothing about God starts guessing it's "she".

You see ...

You're a total mental speculator.

Who has no control of his own mind .....
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:30pm PT
Hj, stop trying to tell us what to do.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Well I guess that is Klimmer's deal - mix'em all up. That's also bmacd's deal as well - sasquatch as interdimensional aliens. So what the hell, carry on...

And Werner, sorry, I forgot you're the only guy here who's never guessing.
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 28, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
"So what the hell, carry on..."

Cant stop telling us what to do, eh? I know your type.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:04am PT
healyje likes to keep things separate. he started a whole thread for 9/11 discussion just to keep it out of the god thread. someday he'll learn what john muir had to say--everything in the universe is hitched to everything else.

thanks for the account, wonder. we also have an ST thread on the sonora pass monster. i camped up there recently--the subject was gentle on my mind.
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:07am PT
Thanks Tony, I always appreciate your posts.
I dont care if anyone want to move my post to the proper spot.

edit: i love thread drift
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:29am PT
Oh talk about thread drift, I posted this pic on For Werner thread


Now tell me if you all dont think this is a depiction of an alien. This is another pic I took at the NM in delhi of an ancient stone carving from yeah back in the day. No cameras so this is what they saw.
Click on the pic to enlarge & check out the little aliens sitting in saucers flying around Vishnu.
And they called them gods.
WBraun

climber
Sep 29, 2010 - 01:12am PT
Science only goes so far.

And ... then comes

GOD .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 01:31am PT
This is actually a pretty interesting thread if you can just disregard the stench from the agent provocateurs...

Many of the disrespectful comments obviously come from people who really just haven't done their homework; or else are intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

There has been a lot of careful research done in this area that deserves better than sensationalized rudeness. My theory is that eventually the truth will become obvious, one way or another.

Some people are setting themselves up to get a lot of egg in their face. There is really no point choosing sides in the food fight. And it would be pretty tiresome to keep posting corrections regarding various well researched facts.

Right now truth is not at all obvious because of all the hyped up disinformation. I think it is well worth asking why there is so much noise on the subject. But then you could ask the same question about religion...(and perhaps it is a related question...)

I work in the space program and know that it is just not all that expensive or impossible to go exploring off the planet. It is certainly challenging and with various non-intuitive lessons to learn. However it is not at all so obvious why we have waited so long to go out and explore instead of just traveling millions of miles in little circles around the earth; once around every 90 minutes at 17,500 mph in a vehicle larger than a football field.

However if you don't want to do your homework, please go find somewhere else to raise a stench. The world is full of opportunities for you...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 03:06am PT
I work in the space program...

Oh my, well then do tell good sir. Explain the inexpensive solutions to unlimited energy, time travel, and protection from interstellar radiation. Sounds like it shouldn't take more than a thoughtful post or two. Oh, and please explain how and why it is so many alien civilizations are visiting our planet in next to no time at all. And of course, why none of them would even have the courtesy to say hello once they got here.

I'm all ears, really.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2010 - 03:36am PT
WASHINGTON, D.C., Sept. 28, 2010
Ex-Air Force Personnel: UFOs Deactivated Nukes
Say Reports of Unexplained Lights in Sky Near Missile Sites Corresponded With Mysterious Shut-Downs of ICBMs
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907702.shtml?tag=stack


Several of the ex-servicemembers speaking Monday said when they'd brought their concern of such appearances to superiors, they'd been told it was "top secret" or that it "didn't happen."

Hastings suggested the presence of such phenomena meant that aliens were monitoring our weapons, and perhaps warning us - "a sign to Washington and Moscow that we are playing with fire," as he was quoted in the Telegraph.

Hastings predicted a "paradigm shift" in the mindset of humanity owing to the existence of alien life.

"Traditional institutions such as religions, governments, other social institutions may be threatened by what is coming. That is just the logical consequence of what is about to occur."



True only for those without faith in GOD and salvation through Jesus Christ. Those who know the Word of GOD, actually read and study their Bible, have read the Book of Enoch, and other Apocrypha know what this means and what is coming. Jesus told us to watch and be ready. "As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of Man," Jesus said.

Think about it. If you truly have faith in GOD, then you already know GOD is ET (Extraterrestrial = off Earth), all the Heavenly Host is ET (Extraterrestrial = off Earth), Heaven is an actual location (ET destination = off Earth, the abode of GOD, and we have no clue exactly where in the Universe this is. Perhaps the center where the expansion of the Universe from the point of singularity first occurred??? Just guessing).


It did challenge me before I really understood all of this, but now that I know and it fits right into place within the Word of GOD, now I know. It doesn't challenge me now. My faith is secure and I know the truth.

I don't trust these UFOs/ET with a ten foot pole, I know what they are and what they mean, and what their intentions are. Yes, they are brilliantly smart and know the Laws of Physics well beyond mankind, we can learn from them and accept the advanced knowledge and technology, but we of faith know what they really want. They will have some good and truthful messages, like nuclear disarmament. I think we can all agree we shouldn't have nuclear bombs. That is like giving a baby a loaded gun. We can't handle it. But what they really want is to be worshipped as our Creator. Read the Good Book and Jesus's 40 day of temptations in the Wilderness to know this truth. All lies wrapped in truth are much easier to swallow. Don't swallow it.

Sorry, that job title has already been taken. The Good Book says there is only one GOD, YAHWEY, and his Son Jesus Christ, YESHUA, and the Holy Ghost (The Trinity), and that we are to Love and Worship YHWY, The Trinity only.

The Good Book also says to try all spirits to see whether they are of GOD. All spirits and entities of GOD know the Laws of the Universe, The Two Great Commandments, and abide by them. These ETs know them and do not abide by them, therefore they are not of GOD, and not to be trusted.

Like I said, take the keys to the flying saucers and spacecrafts, take the knowledge of clean unlimited renewable energy, but leave the rest. Tell them to take off and watch only. Hands off mankind.

They tremble at the name of Jesus Christ. Remember that. That should be in everyone's survival kit. Have Jesus Christ in your heart.




I tell you all these things because I care.





You want to know more check-out:

PhD Chuck Missler
PhD Michael Heiser
PhD Steven Yulish
David Flynn
Tim McHyde



























This is actually a pretty interesting thread if you can just disregard the stench from the agent provocateurs...

Many of the disrespectful comments obviously come from people who really just haven't done their homework; or else are intentionally trying to muddy the waters.

There has been a lot of careful research done in this area that deserves better than sensationalized rudeness. My theory is that eventually the truth will become obvious, one way or another.

Some people are setting themselves up to get a lot of egg in their face. There is really no point choosing sides in the food fight. And it would be pretty tiresome to keep posting corrections regarding various well researched facts.

Right now truth is not at all obvious because of all the hyped up disinformation. I think it is well worth asking why there is so much noise on the subject. But then you could ask the same question about religion...(and perhaps it is a related question...)

I work in the space program and know that it is just not all that expensive or impossible to go exploring off the planet. It is certainly challenging and with various non-intuitive lessons to learn. However it is not at all so obvious why we have waited so long to go out and explore instead of just traveling millions of miles in little circles around the earth; once around every 90 minutes at 17,500 mph in a vehicle larger than a football field.

However if you don't want to do your homework, please go find somewhere else to raise a stench. The world is full of opportunities for you...


Tom, I do really appreciate your input here. You have really good and inside knowledgeable things to say.

Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:03am PT
hj, didnt I tell you to stop telling people what to do.
You will be the next rajmit around here. Now go away.
Look it up kid, you wont out live this.

Edit: your pathetic attempts at passive aggressiveness is so girley-man.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:28am PT
Healyje, you know very well that you can ask more questions than I can have ready answers. And you haven't exactly been the politest voice here. However I will make a few suggestions:

Energy is a very touchy subject with more myths about it than any other subject that people get embroiled about. There is no shortage of energy; the physical universe is made out of it. The challenge is energy management. It's like putting water meters on fish in the Pacific Ocean. I have worked with DOE on the NIF and been associated with SLAC. Look into the issues of radioactive thermal generators (RTGs), fusion engines and fission power sources and electro-static and electro-magnetic propulsion systems. Most of the real research is carefully classified and compartmental. But it's all on the web if you bother to do your homework and can sort out the disinformation. Check into managing weak force and strong force bonding high on the periodic table. Or start making insulting comments and end your learning process.

I point out that easily monopolized technologies are heavily supported. Technologies that are difficult to monopolize are heavily suppressed. Look at Tesla's development record from Edison's direct current, to alternating current transmission, to transmission of radio communications (Marconi lost the law suit from the Tesla Company), to transmission of energy (heavily suppressed top secret, as you can't charge for it).

Meanwhile we live on a space ship with a billion year supply of lubricating oil that we are burning into our thin atmosphere for local transportation on the planet surface in a hundred years. Tell me how that makes sense...oh yeah, because you can charge people for it...

We have a long history of canceling great space programs. NASA just keeps getting jerked around by the politicians. We just threw heart and soul for years into the Constellation Program, and the current administration canceled it and threw the agency into yet another major turmoil.

I think the US Titan/Gemini program was one of our best. If we had kept it alive instead of dropping it when we built Apollo/Saturn, we could be still flying two or three crew into space on a regular basis rather than needing half a billion dollars for a shuttle flight. I'm not saying we shouldn't do the heavy lift programs. Just that it would have been economically wise and practical to keep Gemini going also.

So now we are stuck with paying ransom rates to the Russians to ride up to the International Space Station. They run a pretty good business. It costs them about $10 million per launch. Space Adventures has one seat booked on each flight for $40 million. And the US pays at least that much for one American astronaut going to ISS. Oh yeah, that's how we subsidize the Russian space program with taxpayer funding...

Elon Musk has shown us how it can be done much more economically with SpaceX/Falcon 9/Dragon.

And we still have lots of Titan missiles in the bone yard, and we are restoring one at Ames as a test bed. Ames is concentrating on designing small satellites among other things.

Even better than Mercury/Gemini/Apollo was the predecessor Titan/Dyna-Soar X-20. The USAF apparently agrees and just launched a similar vehicle on top of an Atlas.

Apollo/Saturn flights were also very expensive, but we had a viable heavy lift vehicle and literally threw it away. Now the current administration wants us to come up with a heavy lift vehicle again; and the price tag is amazing.

Most of what NASA does is just a cover-up anyways...

I have been suggesting that dealing with space radiation and several other challenges, such as thermal extremes; can be improved by living inside your water tank i.e. a double wall tank around the crew compartment. The water can also be cracked to fuel, used to sustain life on board, and is a great heat sink for thermal control. And water is plentiful on extra-terrestrial bodies. A group of my friends at Ames just proved the moon as a water resource.

It just doesn't take a huge missile to get to space. A Titan is the size of a medium airplane. I think the Redstone/Mercury was bigger than it needs to be.

I have been rabble rousing to break the military monopoly on space travel and give it to adventure sports people. If light weight is important for space travel, then the lightest weight is a skydiver in a space suit. There is a lot going on in that area. I call it up jumping; get out of the airplane and go up. There are lots of skydivers tired of falling out of the sky. The propulsion requirements are not out of reach for private funding. Yves Rossy uses micro-turbines on a folding carbon fiber wing. Visa Parvinian from Finland uses micro-turbines on his boots with a wing suit. Alban Guisler in Munich has many test flights with his strap-on delta winged Gryphon, going to high altitudes and over a hundred miles. He's working up to doing X-15 type flights with it. The Gryphon uses fly-by-wire stabilization and heads-up avionics projected inside the helmet. And hobby rockets are now reaching serious speeds, altitudes and payloads. Bigelow has an orbital hotel ready when you are. These guys all have YouTube videos.

How's that for a start? (And btw i'm not hiding behind an imaginary name...)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:30am PT
Klimmer, Hard to know how one should even respond to a mashup like that. Where do the extradimensional sasquatch fit in to that conceptual blender? Is jesus 10 foot tall, fur-covered shapeshifter or what? How about nessie and the corp circles? Where do they fit in?
Wonder

climber
WA
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:51am PT
Oh wait, I just looked at a blow up of your avatar. You are a female. I hope you get paid good for you disinfo work. You so babbling now. I can now call you bitch and it wont matter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 05:06am PT
Roy, nope, I'm a guy; just another old '70s climber like yourself, but you're more than welcome to come down and get on rock together and see who's the bitch these days and maybe even get Watusi over to referee while we're at it.

And disinformation? Wow, feel free to point out a single post of mine in this thread that constitutes 'disinformation'. Extreme skepticism? No doubt. Repeated requests for simple explanations (which you guys can't seem to answer)? Yep. Disinformation? Not a shred.

Again, I'm a sci-fi guy who believes there are and have been millions of alien civilizations. But nothing at any point in this thread to-date provides even vaguely plausible explanations for how and why a single alien civilization could or would visit Earth. Let alone anyone explaining the utterly implausible, if not insane, notion all sorts of alien civilizations not only have the capability, know of us, but also visit us all the time (aren't we special!). And the time our species has been on the planet is both a geological nanosecond and a cosmological femtosecond - how do you explain the number of visits you guys are positing in the span of just a couple of decades?

Which of that is 'disinformation'? How come it is you guys have no credible answers for those questions? And yet again, why wouldn't any of these 'advanced' civilizations simply stop by a highly public venue and say hello, or at least have the common decency of just turning all the nukes off permanently if they bother them so much? All in all, you guys are heavy on hearsay certainty of "they're here" and incredibly lite on plausible explanations of how and why that is backed by hard evidence of any kind.

Tom, the energy is clearly there for the taking; actually doing it is another story altogether and doing it at near infinite yields yet another (one only has to look at the history and odds of ITER and NIF to see what a stretch even sustainable breakeven is). As for interstellar radiation, I've seen several of the water-ship concepts, but then you're back to infinite energy and time travel if you're going to get such a beast from point A to any significant point B in anywhere remotely near a human lifetime. And it's a big leap for a civilization to make from today's 'safety match' launch vehicles to anything capable of taking light years in stride - and I would posit incredibly rare for any civilization to survive both themselves and external events to achieve such a breakthrough.

P.S. Can't agree that the Constellation program was a good idea - a recycled and half-hearted affair at best. From my perspective we're either doing Mars or we're not, and if we are then we get serious about funding a generation or two of kids to take on that mantle and make it happen. MER showed we can still get the job done if we want it bad enough - fund the sh#t out of going there, turn the kids loose, and it would happen no problem (and the hardest part is already halfway in the bag). But it's a pretty tough sell when you're flushing trillions down the a hole in the desert.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Sep 29, 2010 - 08:50am PT
What do all of these aliens eat? Especially those ones living on the dark side of the moon?

And how about infrared images from the moon showing a heat footprint from this massive base previously mentioned"
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 29, 2010 - 09:22am PT
Nice reply, healyje.

Homerun.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 09:35am PT
HJ, my, you certainly are the Demanda...

I asked, you have to tell me, or Whaaaa. I demand easy answers!


Let me ask you a question: How come you said the Phoenix Lights were flares where there is a plethora of evidence showing that they were not flares?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 10:51am PT
Energy is a very touchy subject with more myths about it than any other subject that people get embroiled about. There is no shortage of energy; the physical universe is made out of it. The challenge is energy management. It's like putting water meters on fish in the Pacific Ocean. I have worked with DOE on the NIF and been associated with SLAC.

some good points Tom


I work in the space program and know that it is just not all that expensive or impossible to go exploring off the planet.

please don't try and say this is cheap though. NIF was what about 4$Billion and still no meaningful research out of it yet? don't get me wrong, i have complete confidence that we will learn from it and it will be a useful but expensive experiment. cheap, NO.


water is plentiful on extra-terrestrial bodies. A group of my friends at Ames just proved the moon as a water resource.

and being able to extract that water wold be costly and difficult on earth, let alone in space....


edit:
apology to the other posters here, but RJ has a burr up his butt...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 11:22am PT
healyje,

now that we all know your opinion, please go do some more homework

exposure to tons of processed intel isn't knowledge, it's mind deadening

i managed the project to build the supercomputer to auto-sort all usaf intel traffic, but that doesn't make me knowledgeable

i've worked inside nasa for many years on a first name basis with apollo astronauts and flight directors, but that doesn't make me knowledgeable

i designed and developed the system integration framework for the constellation program as a member of the core system integration team, but
whether constellation was the right approach is another subject entirely and you already have some of my opinion about how to go into space

i also hobknob with generals and admirals, and the honest ones admit to being kept in the dark as baffled as the rest of us, especially people with first hand experience and old enough to talk freely

i don't have first hand experience here, but i don't reject the experience of friends and family who do

i do have first-hand religious experience, yet find it easier to reject christian mythology

if the pope says it happened, it happened

if usaf says it didn't happen, it didn't happen

it seems that if it didn't happen to you, it didn't happen



monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 29, 2010 - 11:48am PT
The cheapness of getting into orbit has very little to do with the possibilities of interstellar travel.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 11:57am PT
the expense of spaceflight is not the issue

we can and should be sending thousands of people into space

we spend a tiny fraction of the national budget on spaceflight in comparison to what is invested in DHS and DoD
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:08pm PT
So the subject has changed? We are no longer talking about the absurdities of how a massive ark traveled through interstellar space to wind up on our moon?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
absurdities relative to what?

i've personally watched el cap climbing go from a multi-year marathon to a before breakfast romp

i grew up running mainframe computers that filled a big room; with far less compute power than my blackberry

my great grandmother came west from st louis to boise in a constoga wagon, helped her father build a house that she lived in for nearly a century, and sat in that house watching moon landings on tv

if everything has to make sense relative to our current limited world view, then best of luck

one thing we can be pretty sure about is that our world view is due for massive changes

we have much to learn
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
Tom great stuff. Glad you stepped up to the plate.

Cracking water, care to provide more details ? I've heard about it before.

Unexploited low cost energy sources ala Teslas work etc, well imagine if the USA's energy costs were slashed to next to nothing. Suddenly those savings go towards your long term unfunded Federal Government liabilities looming over your heads right now.

HealeyJ, in 2007 I sourced up over 50K$ in private funding for Sasquatch research. Half the money went into optics, including night vision, the rest to expenses. My observations support the conclusions they can achieve invisibility, by either bending light around them or allowing photons to pass thru them. They have also demonstrated telepathic capabilities to me and my friends. Lastly I have also seen strong evidence of telekinesis too. Accessing higher dimensions, well I'm not sure what that looks like or entails but I have video of stuff at night that makes me suspect its in their repertoire.

Anybody ever done any reading on plasma cosmology and the electric nature of the universe ?


Finally I would not be surprised if Alien contact has already been made at the highest levels in military already, and decades ago. I'm sure the government is in the dark about what the military knows.


Re: the ark on the moon. they crashed it there after unloading its contents on earth first.

Re: the moon - it carried the water from somewhere else to earth and deposited it here. Perhaps the moon previously orbited one of the planetary gas giants, and was moved to earth orbit by the Gods/ET
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
we have much to learn

no doubt.



i just dont swallow the notion of a massive coverup in the apollo progam to hide an alien spaceship on the moon...but if i am wrong i will buy you a beer!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 29, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
i am not making any claims to any insider or personal knowledge on these things

however there is a lot of information readily available that is not so easy to dismiss, even though buried in an avalanche of misinformation

it is clear that there are powerful insiders manipulating people and their opinions using the media and religions and all sorts of wild ideas, but not so clear who they are or what is their agenda, other than world domination

i don't see any thread here on direct mind control; which is one of the major investments of the black budgets


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
Tom, gotta ask, so where do you stand on telekinetic, invisible Sasquatch?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
healyje, I gotta ask, how come you think the Phoenix Lights were flares?
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 29, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
healyje = US Navy disinformation agent
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
My observations support the conclusions they can achieve invisibility, by either bending light around them or allowing photons to pass thru them. They have also demonstrated telepathic capabilities to me and my friends. Lastly I have also seen strong evidence of telekinesis too. Accessing higher dimensions, well I'm not sure what that looks like or entails but I have video of stuff at night that makes me suspect its in their repertoire.

As stated on the bigfoot thread, that's some pretty amazing logic.

a) I know they're there >
b) I can't see them =
c) they're invisible

'Invisibility', 'evidence of telekinesis' and 'accessing higher dimensions'? All on $50k? That would certainly make you the research bargain of the century if you could get any of that peer reviewed.

How about DNA? Got peer reviewed DNA results?

I'd say you'd have to be right about the interdimensional stuff because if they lived in the NW with a minimum viable population we'd be tripping over each other on a regular basis.

P.S. I spent way too much time in navy brigs for them feel good about writing me checks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
K-man - the Phoenix lights were flares just like the Mexican ufos were oil rigs.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 29, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
How about DNA? Got peer reviewed DNA results?

My Hair samples went to Dr. Robert Alley, Anthropologist, University of Ketichkan, Alaska. Mine matched the other samples he has collected in Alaska. No medullas, therefore no DNA although there are methods I believe of extracting DNA directly from hair.

Bigfoot presents a physics problem, and study of the subject would benefit if a physicist was involved. There is an electrical nature to bigfoot which has been observed by many.

Bigfoot eyes glow, the body invisible, the glow is perhaps a signature of an electrical force in play enabling invisibility
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8704462/

bmacd, looks like it was one of those evolved Bison who could walk on his hind legs....

"Bison, not Bigfoot, stomped through Canada
DNA test of hair sample shows it came from bison, not Sasquatch "

EDMONTON — Perhaps he is still stomping around somewhere, but a DNA test has confirmed that it was not Bigfoot roaming the Yukon earlier this month — it was just a bison.

A hair sample was reportedly plucked from a bush near Teslin in the Yukon at a spot where several people claimed they saw and heard a large, hairy creature making a late-night run through their community. They also reported seeing an unusually large footprint.

The witnesses speculated that they had seen Bigfoot, also known as Sasquatch, an ape-like creature said to haunt the wilderness of western Canada, among other places.

But Bigfoot's presence was refuted after a geneticist from the University of Alberta did tests on the sample, and said the DNA match for a bison was 100 per cent.

David Coltman, the geneticist, says the DNA suggested the hair sample was not fresh.

Coltman agreed to do the tests as a favor to a colleague, and had said Monday that he suspected the hair was actually left behind by a much more mundane Yukon bison.

“If Sasquatch is indeed a primate, then we would expect the sample to be closer to humans or chimpanzees or gorillas,” Coltman said at the time.

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The legend of the large, hairy, two-legged creature lurking in mountains dates back to before Europeans settled the continent. This was the second report of the creature near Teslin in just over a year.

In the latest reported sighting, a group of Teslin residents told the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. they heard branches cracking and saw a large human-like creature run by a house. It left behind large footprints, they said, and the hair tufts that were given to wildlife officials.

Coltman said Monday that the process should serve as a good way to get students interested in the field of DNA testing.

“It’s sort of like a wildlife CSI story,” he said.


EDIT: maybe he arrived on that ark that got stuck on the moon

bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 29, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
contact Dr. Robert Alley, Anthropologist, University of Ketichkan, Alaska if you have questions about my samples
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
bm,

i dont get it. i mean, if there is hair from BF then that is some pretty strong DNA evidence to support his/her existence, should be allover the news. not tryin to shoot you down, just looking for understanding...
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
Sorry, I stand corrected. Looks like Klimmer was at least partly right.

Except it's not an ark. It's a plane. Here's very good photographic evidence:
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Edit: Oops. Cintune beat me to it by seconds. :-)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
bmacd, one problem with your physics-whiz sasquatch is that there is nothing even close to that in nature, from electric eels to gifted human psychics. not a glimmer. there would have to be a biological mechanism for it--certainly a creature involved in no more than basic hunting and gathering wouldn't be doing it with gadgets. and yet, such mechanisms appear nowhere else, not even in rudimentary form. if invisibility had evolved in nature, it would certainly have been well exploited in predator-prey relationships.

tom raised the issue of mind control which i think is an important one. in bmacd's case, i'm suspicious of a couple things. one is a $50K grant, a lot of money coming out of nowhere. the other is his apparently being the victim of a street gang, just in time to handicap his research. two strange things out of the blue. "there are no coincidences."

in wonder's case, i have a different suspicion. natives love to play tricks on whites, especially when they come into their territory to make money. his account sounds like a wonderful experience, but it could also be suspect as a merry little hoax, the joke on the white guy.

there is evidence that dark ops singles people out, works on them, makes assets out of them. i used to chat with a gal who was in the canadian air force, bucking for a promo to captain, a single mom, frustrated and ready to quit. one day she was confronted by a man under some strange influence in the base parking lot, late at night. she felt threatened, pulled her gun, ordered him to stand down. he kept advancing, she shot him dead. the investigation didn't find much--some disconnected, apparently homeless individual. the guys in charge of base security were fired. shortly afterward, she got her promotion.

those of us who have gotten suspicious of the government note that many key assassin figures seem to be disturbed individuals under a strange influence. two manchurian candidate movies have been made on this subject. and take a look at the jonestown event. congressman leo ryan, passionate to get the cia under congressional control, was killed at jonestown, which was suspected to be a dark ops mind control lab subcontracted to a religious cult a few years after the cia had been ordered to lay off mind control experimentation.

fellas, get the aliens to decommission a few other things besides nukes.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
"K-man - the Phoenix lights were flares just like the Mexican ufos were oil rigs."

HJ, I didn't ask for your opinion (I already knew that), I asked how you formed your opinion.

From eye witness accounts of hundreds of people, the Phoenix Lights were not flares. So, I'm wondering how you formed your opinion that they were flares.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 05:00pm PT
"those of us who have gotten suspicious of the government note that many key assassin figures seem to be disturbed individuals under a strange influence."

That guy who hit Yoko's husband comes to mind. He had a lot of strange connections. But ...y?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 29, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
1599

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 29, 2010 - 05:01pm PT
1600!!!!



edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Sep 29, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
"So, I'm wondering how you formed your opinion that they were flares."



Didn't you read upthread?


His Daddy and Brother told him so...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
In two tours I saw no shortage of flares first hand. Those are flares. If they're a 'craft' then someone needs to teach aliens a 101 class in ruler, straightedge, chalkline, and divider use in advanced interstellar spacecraft manufacture - maybe you could resurrect an Egyptian to teach it.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
[ed]
Wow healyje, so you know flares first hand.

My question still remains, why do you think the PL were flares, were you there first hand?

Did you talk to others that also thought they were flares?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 29, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
All you have to do is look at any of the original videos.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
You mean the ones showing the lights being stationary for 20-30 minutes?
I didn't realize flairs stayed in one spot for so long. (In actuality, they don't.)

[ed]
OK HJ, I am getting the full sense. You come across as obstinate and arrogant. You demand that people supply to you answers that they could not possibly know and you refuse to look at evidence reported by creditable sources. You ridicule eye witnesses, even if there are hundreds (if not thousands) of people spread across states and countries who claim to have seen the same thing.

The picture I'm getting is of a curmudgeonly 70-year old man who is set in his ways and refuses to look at new information due to the fear it might change his world view. Am I far off?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 07:23pm PT
one is a $50K grant, a lot of money coming out of nowhere.

tony, $50K is nothing in some government agency budgets...



stzzo, these are particularly crafty sasquatch as they apparently convert their hair DNA to match a Bison's.....
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian, Certified Kook
Sep 29, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
The research money came from a childhood friend of mine, whom was successful in mineral exploration in Mongolia. He discovered the Gatsuurt gold deposit, 2 million ounces, he sold it to Centerra Gold and then the Gurvanbulag deposit, 20600 tonnes U3O8 at an average grade of 0.159%, in the Saddle Hills district in eastern Mongolia.

I traveled with him in 2005 to visit the camp at Gurvanbulag on one of his site visits. At the time his net worth on paper was 60 million so tossing me 50k was no big deal

I was not expecting to discover "Bigfoot invisibility" but review of some of the video footage taken at night made it clear to me that is what is going on.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 29, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
I was not expecting to discover "Bigfoot invisibility" but review of some of the video footage taken at night made it clear to me that is what is going on.

yep, invisibility is clear alright....do they still leave tracks and hair or do they make those disappear as well?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 29, 2010 - 09:44pm PT
HJ, I'm feeling kinda bad at how I responded to you. Sorry about that. I just got tired of the attitude that came through in your posts. You are certainly welcome to your views and opinions. However, one thing I've learned is that a condescending tone never earns many friends.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
It seems to keep popping up from time to time . . .

What ever you want to call it: "Derelict ET Spaceship," "ET Mothership," a "Massive ET Ark," I don't care. Just don't call it a rock. No rock comes to rest on the Moon of this size without forming a massive crater and then vaporizing in the process. The geomorpology and physics of asteroid and meteor impacts and cratering is very well known now.

This massive ship is intelligently designed. Period.

I called it an Ark to get a rise out of a few on ST, and it certainly worked. Although I will argue, something that is 5km long and nearly 1km in width and height, could certainly act as an ET "Ark."

I can see the thread at times drifts into all kinds of nefariously obscure or semi-related topics. OK, whatever.

Just as long as it comes back to the fact that "they" are here and Uncle Sam knows it and is covering it up. Time to come clean. How stupid does Uncle Sam you think we are? Pretty stupid apparently.

Game over.




Official Apollo 15 image on the left, unofficial Apollo 20 image on the right. This is a stereo-pair, check it out:

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
Ricky said -- "Sam may be right in your case."




I've done nothing wrong but speak the truth. I have nothing to be ashamed of.


I'm not violent nor do I advocate violence. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers."


I just speak TRUTH to power.


They can take much from me, but they can't take my soul.


I have the ACLU and Center For Constitutional Rights on speed dial.


More importantly I have GOD on my side. I'm not afraid anymore.









LEB,


This stereopair I'm reposting for you.




Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
LEB,

Watch the full meeting from 9-27-10 with the former Military officers at the National Press Club. Someone from the audience asks this question at the end in the questions and answer session. You should hear their answer. Telling.

If you haven't watched the video from the NPC meeting in Washington DC on 9-27-10 then you must. Watch the whole thing:

http://blip.tv/play/AYH_7AoC



Here is another site:

Robert Salas UFO Press Conference 9/27/10 Nukes Deactivated (pt1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzoC3QPI_E
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
Rokjox,

Just for clarification, you aren't directing that at me are you? ;-)
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland
Sep 29, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Okay Klimmer, I’ll come clean...as a son of Hayk and a Master Freemason I will admit on this prestigious forum of record that we have indeed been withholding the truth from the general public.

I apologize sincerely for my involvement in this matter and hope to absolve myself from this crime of humanity by sharing with you muy friends a REAL picture of an alien crash landing.





























Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2010 - 12:41am PT
Well that last picture nearly got me in trouble with the wife and kids as I'm sitting on the couch checking out ST.


Danger Will Robinson!











































I'm surprised Pate hasn't flocked here yet. I can just imagine what he'll post in reply.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2010 - 12:53am PT
He is good coverage from Faux News . . .

Coverage about 9-27-10 NPC Military Officers Meeting on UFOs and Nukes.

Interview from yesterday, Sept. 28th, on FOX News Channel, AMERICA LIVE with Megyn KellyWed, September 29, 2010 by Leslie Kean
http://ufosontherecord.com/blog/interview-from-yesterday-sept-28th-on-fox-news-channel-america-live-with-megyn-kelly/



Also . . .

UK UFO expert Nick Pope’s Interview on CNN
http://ufosontherecord.com/blog/uk-ufo-expert-nick-popes-interview-on-cnn/
WBraun

climber
Sep 30, 2010 - 01:44am PT
People have been traveling between and to other planets for billions of years just by chanting mantra.

Modern caveman scientists spend billions & billions of peoples hard earned dollars and can't do sh'it.

Stupid cavemen ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2010 - 01:47am PT
Maybe they are Intraterrestrial and not Extraterrestrial?

Maybe they have the ability to move at will between dimensions and parallel Universes?

The evidence is that they have always been here since modern man and even before then.

Nick Pope is playing it cool. Officially, he doesn't want to jump to conclusions. He has spoken much about it. There is plenty of footage where he admits there must be something to it.

Hey, the second step of the scientific method after making observations, is to generate scientific hypotheses. It is OK to guess a possible answer or answers, and then put each to the test.

I have my guess, and I have The Good Book to back me up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2010 - 02:17am PT
RJ,

Good show, "Ancient Aliens." I got it. History Channel is releasing the entire series next month on DVD. Should be good.

You know, it is truly amazing how much is coming out. Truly amazing. I really do think disclosure is happening before our very eyes. Not too fast and overwhelming now, since they want --

Slow Controlled Public Acclimation and Disclosure . . . drip . . . drip . . . drip . . .


http://shop.history.com/?v=history_show_ancient-aliens&ecid=PRF-2102269&pa=PRF-2102269


http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=263607&v=history_show_ancient-aliens
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 30, 2010 - 02:23am PT
What ever you want to call it: "Derelict ET Spaceship," "ET Mothership," a "Massive ET Ark," I don't care. Just don't call it a rock. No rock comes to rest on the Moon of this size without forming a massive crater and then vaporizing in the process. The geomorpology and physics of asteroid and meteor impacts and cratering is very well known now.

This massive ship is intelligently designed. Period.

It's just the edge of the crater. It's rock and dirt. Period.

And Klimmer is crazy. Period.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 30, 2010 - 02:26am PT
GC,

Try using a stereoscope.



Boy, the head-in-sand debunkers are out tonight.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 30, 2010 - 02:29am PT
Klimmer using a stereoscope and what he sees with it.


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 30, 2010 - 02:47am PT
must be one of about 10,000 british ufo experts. they love this stuff over there.

tony, $50K is nothing in some government agency budgets ...

my point exactly. :-D

but bmacd tells us this was a personal friend who got rich, so let's assume it was all forthright. i'm afraid his "research" suffered from his unwillingness to get out there and approach those lights. on the other hand, perhaps they'd have disappeared quickly if he had.

here's a well-credentialed fellow who took sasquatch seriously:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Krantz
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 30, 2010 - 03:06am PT
Anyone on this thread who hasn't watched the Robert Salas UFO Press Conference 9/27/10 is wasting everybody's time and patience

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Sep 30, 2010 - 03:13am PT
This one, Rok?

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Sep 30, 2010 - 10:53am PT
looks like a painting, not stained glass. know where it's from? when it was painted?

the (haha) illumnati (?) artist is using a couple interesting devices. there's the fellow standing on the shore, apparently with a dog, gazing up at it. and if that isn't enough, mary's halo serves as a shadowy finger against the sky, pointing at it directly. subtle, huh?

mother mary--does anyone else find this woman irritating? pate?

this, of course, isn't the only suggestive piece of old artwork. erik von däniken's chariots of the gods, book and movie, proposed many examples, including works of the mayas and incas. then it was all (hahaha) "debunked". i'm sure snopes will be very authoritative with something like "it has all the hallmarks of apocraphality". carl sagan blabbered out his "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". if a flying saucer in a medieval painting isn't extraordinary, what is?

1967, the time of the incidents covered in this press conference, was also the time of the ohio valley ufo flap which ended with the collapse of the bridge at point pleasant, WV, killing many people, a disaster foretold repeatedly in paranormal events there. john keel's nonfiction mothman prophecies presents some very hardboiled reporting of it. once again, i exhort my fellow armchairers here to check this book out. it can put all this in a different perspective. the 1967 incidents also inspired spielberg's tongue-in-cheek men in black. a lot of real men in black were running around in 1967, and they weren't being quite as rational as will smith and tommy lee jones.

salas reports that an air force office of special investigations rep happened to be on the spot at his remote montana missile site. this would be a typical man in black. he ordered everyone not to talk about what happened, and he even had a nondisclosure form for everyone to sign. salas dutifully clammed up for years.

from the wiki article on keel:

"Once you have established a belief, the phenomenon adjusts its manifestations to support that belief and thereby escalate it."

"I have come to realize that we have been observing complex forces which have always been an essential part of our environment."

especially to you, klimmer: it isn't about god. a god which plays games, which can't be forthright, isn't worth the worship. it's typical, however, of the favorites-playing judaeo-christian divinity, and you are a sucker for that frame of mind.

i can't explain all this, but i kinda think keel is pointing in the right direction. if you like sasquatch, read what he has to say about the garuda. the paranormal approach suspects some squiggly, corner-of-the-eye function of mind, something which keeps sasquatch forever receding into the woods and ufos forever buzzing off the radar--and which keeps a power elite, playing by a very different set of rules, securely in place.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Sep 30, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
Ya know, I got to thinking...

Do you think they use WAG Bags? I mean, how do they...

Aw, fergetit.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Sep 30, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
Comment after viewing the press release video on UFOs and Nukes; from the eldest member of my family, a WWII USN Captain ret. and AEC/DOE Chief Engineer retired:


"What we have here is a great number of points of truth but a weak connection of the dots, requiring several leaps of faith to arrive at the assumptions of of a super-government and machines that can accomplish solutions to all of mankind's problems and needs. The underlying agenda of "no weapons in outer space" seems not to have been proven or disproven.
Vetting such truths to congress is the wrong venue, because they are political animals."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 30, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
I damn well am violent, and don't you forget it, 'cause I will kick your ass for pissing me off if I think I can get away with it. If I think I can't, I will take it out on your car.



I fully believe God fights on the side with the biggest guns, (that means indirect artillery, not rifles and other popguns).



I'll tell the truth to you or almost anybody, face to face, except to judges, cops and my wife. (Please, no voice recorders ...)



I know I have a lot to lose, and I will fight like hell to keep it. I really have no idea if I have a soul, but if I do, I will confront that when I have to. I fully expect it will be small and black.



And I don't give a DAMN about your constitutional rights. Thats for the Fed to worry about.



I got Lawyers cards in my wallet all the time, and they take my calls, knowing I got money and I pay up. More importantly, I know how to contact a mean assed SOB who will break any law for money, and he has some mean assed ex military friends that behave likewise, and they are BORED most of the time.



I am a fearful man, cautious to paranoia, and if you are scary enough to scare ME, you'd better not, because a big man may beat hell out of you for fun, but a scared small man will KILL you ASAP. (And that is a truism you can take to the bank, Baby.)








is there any wonder why some think you are such a a-hole? what a windbag, blowhard pussy......
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Sep 30, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
Lois,

Go ask Alice...

Alice Kramden
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 30, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
It is all the fault of that TV program (and its loud commercials)

hey airhead, how about personal responsibility?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 1, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Milton William "Bill" Cooper was way ahead of everyone on all of this information. He was a very brave soul to come out and publish and speak as he did, way ahead of everyone else. Then they shot him.

I've seen many of his talks and presentations via Youtube.

I have his book on my wish list. Sometime I'm going to get it and read it. It is a very important, a very good book, but also a hard and dark book to read. Not a book to cuttle-up with. Scary stuff. Read the reviews.

Behold a Pale Horse [Paperback]
William Cooper (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Behold-Pale-Horse-William-Cooper/dp/0929385225/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IO2IA15U5LALF&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 1, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
I've read his book.

"There has been a plan in effect since at least 1917 to create, create, an artificial Extraterrestrial threat to the planet Earth, so as to bring about a one-world, Luciferian Totalitarian socialist government. This Extraterrestrial propaganda has been promoted through movies, through books, in the newspapers; so as to create the idea in the public mind that this phenomena related to Extraterrestrials is real and that the threat is real." - Milton William Cooper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_William_Cooper

it's hard to know what to believe, other than it is obvious that a lot people in positions of authority are doing a lot of lying...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 1, 2010 - 09:09pm PT


"There has been a plan in effect since at least 1917 to create, create, an artificial Extraterrestrial threat to the planet Earth, so as to bring about a one-world, Luciferian Totalitarian socialist government. This Extraterrestrial propaganda has been promoted through movies, through books, in the newspapers; so as to create the idea in the public mind that this phenomena related to Extraterrestrials is real and that the threat is real." - Milton William Cooper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_William_Cooper

it's hard to know what to believe, other than it is obvious that a lot people in positions of authority are doing a lot of lying...

So if they say aliens exist they are lying, and if they say they don't they are lying? You are sure that it is a conspiracy, but are trying to decide whether it is a conspiracy to hide the existence of aliens or whether it is a conspiracy to promote non-existent aliens.

Have you and Klimmer considered whether you are crazy paranoid? Klimmer has to be the biggest nutcase on Supertopo!

bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 1, 2010 - 10:21pm PT
Tom,

in the wiki article about Cooper it says this:
In June 2001 he warned publicly about an important terrorist attack on United States of America that would be blamed on Osama Bin Laden.[8]

futher down regarding his death:
According to police accounts, when the deputies identified themselves, Cooper fled back toward his house, drew a handgun, and began shooting. One deputy was shot in the head and was hospitalized in critical condition.[10] Another deputy returned fire, killing Cooper. No medical assistance was attempted nor implemented until after his confirmed death.[citation needed] His body laid for up to but no longer than 18 hours and no media outlets were allowed within 5 miles including in the air so as that no news helicopters could fly overhead.[citation needed] He was shot 6 times the last of which being located directly behind the right ear. A holster was logged into the police report but no gun ever turned up from his possession.[citation needed]

Many of Cooper's fans believe he was murdered by the government in order to silence him and prevent him from "exposing" the 9/11 attacks conspiracy and the New World Order.

sorry to bump the "ark" but there are interesting nuggets that keep popping up in this thread
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 2, 2010 - 01:00am PT
if it'll make you feel any better, klimmer, i spent most of the afternoon on the subject of cooper, who obviously died a death of execution. this sh#t goes on in america, and with impunity. don't think for a minute that we are a nation of real laws and freedoms.

my problem with cooper is contradictions. jesus and lucifer are the same he says, but then he turns around and claims to be a christian, so if you're a christian, please don't think he's a threat to your beliefs. sounds like a sales ploy. play in peoria. then he gets thick with uneducated jordan maxwell, who makes up all sorts of folk etymologies to explain his theories. maxwell's "research" goes into that disinformaganza zeitgeist, where, among other miracles, stars wander through the heavens like planets.

"my little mind grows weary of this great world," quoth portia.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2010 - 05:51am PT
More on Milton William Cooper, his life and his story. Good videos put together by those who knew him, and the story regarding his life . . .

William Cooper & his Death 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmvgKx1KoQg&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhxGnZks4H8&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc7x1rnswSA&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQIiwjbPdyI&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fUNHzIdOtU&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qInAFnAH03c&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF2gk_aV3sI&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2AS_J0QZtU&feature=related

William Cooper & his Death 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o61ukccad4&feature=related


The hour of the Time:
http://www.hourofthetime.com/



Just found this. You can download Bill Cooper's Book:

Behold a Pale Horse
http://www.hourofthetime.com/wordpresstest/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/William_Cooper-Behold_a_Pale_Horse1991.pdf
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2010 - 07:28am PT
Hey they found a copy of the long lost Apollo 11 films!

Long-lost footage of Apollo 11 moon landing to be screened
Long-lost footage of Neil Armstrong descending the ladder of the Apollo 11 lunar module will be screened in public for the first time in Sydney next week, according to a prominent astronomer.
Published: 4:19PM BST 28 Sep 2010

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8030499/Long-lost-footage-of-Apollo-11-moon-landing-to-be-screened.html


I wonder if the color on the Lunar surface will be more realistic now? HHHhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 2, 2010 - 09:05am PT
klimmer, since this is your effing thread, you really owe it to us to get drawn into the discussion a little further rather than just bleep out links the way you do. we all know how to google.

there are several cruxes here, just like in rock climbing, and you retreat from every one of them because of your christian beliefs. i don't have a problem leaving beliefs out of a discussion if they don't happen to pertain, but here they do, and you haven't addressed a single one which i have raised. at the very least you ought to explain how you can continue with the christian scenario in face of the ET scenario, especially the ET scenario presented here.

these are not superior beings in a spiritual sense. if the air force guys and bill cooper are giving us anything resembling truth, they are merely representatives of some sort of galactic alliance which has entered into agreement with corrupt earth governments. they have sanctioned a corrupt, oppressive and unfairly secretive world domination. they seem to want to control nukes, but beyond that they are not in agreement with each other and they don't have the technological capability to set anything right on earth. they are merely cosmic flyboys. can't even beam each other up and down.

so--how does your christian spiritual order fit into this? are all the fantastic happenings of the old and new testament really visitations from these technologically superior yet spiritually the same-sort-of-as#@&%es from other planets? did jesus live his little life under the aegis of attending flying saucers? did they perhaps allow him to go through his ministerial charade, to "teach" earthlings the "right" way, then bring him back to life, like so many EMTs, within a day or so? you know what's wrong with all that? the sumbitch lied to us about what he really was. and that's the problem with all of this--no one has learned the basic spiritual value of honesty.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
Tony,

I did answer you. But I can not tell you everything. You will have to check it out on your own. Do your own homework as they say.

If you want to know how all this works from a Christian perspective and what this all means then follow the Christian PhDs that I listed at the bottom of this former post. They are all pretty much in agreement.

But if you don't have Christian faith, and you think Jesus was just a man, and that he wasn't Emmanuel, "GOD with Us," then what can I do more to convince you? Also if you think that The Good Book is just a book of myths then what can I do more to convince you?

I've said this many times, the Good Book and Jesus Christ said that what we are experiencing now, would happen. "As in the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the son of man be." Along with the state of the World being in a deplorable state, and the Nations of the World corrupt and at War, we also have The return of the Nephilim.

If you had faith, then you would also have hope for the future. Jesus is going to return and he is going to kick butt. They are not going to get away with their evil plans. He comes back and he puts a stop to it. That doesn't mean we sit back and wait for the cavalry. We must live our lives according to GOD's laws, abide by the Great Commandments, resist all evil, speak truth to power etc. etc. We must do what ever we can do to hold back the full assault of evil. Jesus called all TRUE believers, "The Salt of the Earth." True believers on Earth keep the World of Man from destroying themselves. "Blessed Be The Peacemakers."

It will get worse, before it gets better, sadly. The worst is to come. But there is a major light shining at the end of the tunnel. I look forward to the Millennium when 1000 years of peace reigns on the Earth and Jesus Christ is on his thrown, and the Nations of the World will truly be at peace and be one, and come to Jerusalem to worship our GOD and Creator in the Temple. Perhaps there will no longer be borders. I hope so. The Great Deceiver, Lucifer, is bound along with his Fallen Angels, and all those who followed and waged this evil are taken out of the way and held in some suspended state of being until the Last Judgement.




WASHINGTON, D.C., Sept. 28, 2010
Ex-Air Force Personnel: UFOs Deactivated Nukes
Say Reports of Unexplained Lights in Sky Near Missile Sites Corresponded With Mysterious Shut-Downs of ICBMs
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907702.shtml?tag=stack


Several of the ex-service-members speaking Monday said when they'd brought their concern of such appearances to superiors, they'd been told it was "top secret" or that it "didn't happen."

Hastings suggested the presence of such phenomena meant that aliens were monitoring our weapons, and perhaps warning us - "a sign to Washington and Moscow that we are playing with fire," as he was quoted in the Telegraph.

Hastings predicted a "paradigm shift" in the mindset of humanity owing to the existence of alien life.

"Traditional institutions such as religions, governments, other social institutions may be threatened by what is coming. That is just the logical consequence of what is about to occur."



True only for those without faith in GOD and salvation through Jesus Christ. Those who know the Word of GOD, actually read and study their Bible, have read the Book of Enoch, and other Apocrypha know what this means and what is coming. Jesus told us to watch and be ready. "As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of Man," Jesus said.

Think about it. If you truly have faith in GOD, then you already know GOD is ET (Extraterrestrial = off Earth), all the Heavenly Host is ET (Extraterrestrial = off Earth), Heaven is an actual location (ET destination = off Earth, the abode of GOD, and we have no clue exactly where in the Universe this is. Perhaps the center where the expansion of the Universe from the point of singularity first occurred??? Just guessing).


It did challenge me before I really understood all of this, but now that I know and it fits right into place within the Word of GOD, now I know. It doesn't challenge me now. My faith is secure and I know the truth.

I don't trust these UFOs/ET with a ten foot pole, I know what they are and what they mean, and what their intentions are. Yes, they are brilliantly smart and know the Laws of Physics well beyond mankind, we can learn from them and accept the advanced knowledge and technology, but we of faith know what they really want. They will have some good and truthful messages, like nuclear disarmament. I think we can all agree we shouldn't have nuclear bombs. That is like giving a baby a loaded gun. We can't handle it. But what they really want is to be worshipped as our Creator. Read the Good Book and Jesus's 40 day of temptations in the Wilderness to know this truth. All lies wrapped in truth are much easier to swallow. Don't swallow it.

Sorry, that job title has already been taken. The Good Book says there is only one GOD, YAHWEY, and his Son Jesus Christ, YESHUA, and the Holy Ghost (The Trinity), and that we are to Love and Worship YHWY, The Trinity only.

The Good Book also says to try all spirits to see whether they are of GOD. All spirits and entities of GOD know the Laws of the Universe, The Two Great Commandments, and abide by them. These ETs know them and do not abide by them, therefore they are not of GOD, and not to be trusted.

Like I said, take the keys to the flying saucers and spacecrafts, take the knowledge of clean unlimited renewable energy, but leave the rest. Tell them to take off and watch only. Hands off mankind.

They tremble at the name of Jesus Christ. Remember that. That should be in every-one's survival kit. Have Jesus Christ in your heart.




I tell you all these things because I care.





You want to know more about this, then check-out these Christian PhDs. They know the truth of the UFO/ET presence and what this all means, and how things will occur according to the Word of GOD:

PhD Chuck Missler
PhD Michael Heiser
PhD Steven Yulish
David Flynn
Tim McHyde
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 3, 2010 - 12:31am PT
I hope my position has been made clear:

I read a lot on all sorts of subjects.

And for whatever reason, people feel safe telling me all sorts of things that they normally keep quiet about; possibly because I listen carefully and respect their views and don't ridicule their perceptions.

As a consequence of the above, I have noticed that there are a lot of contradictory information and opinions running around. My own opinion is that there are some very strange stories going around; and it has been made extraordinarily difficult to discern what is real and what are the actually patterns of truth.

I am postulating that eventually the truth on some of these things will become clear; but currently the opposite is true.

I will point out that most of my colleagues at NASA just don't discuss the sort of subjects on this thread.

I otherwise don't have any particular opinions on many of these subjects, other than to point out that there is a tremendous amount of disinformation being published. This opinion is based on all the contradictory stories, if not for any other reason.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 3, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
Rokjox,

After your reiterating what happened with Bill Cooper . . .

Do you still really think this was an accident?

In my opinion, no way, they wanted him dead.




I'm glad to know that his close friends are carrying on with the radio program and Bill's publications.




By the way, it was Bill Cooper who also said that UFO/ETs had an agenda. He also said they intend to tell us that they are our Creators. Bill was a Christian, and professed Christain faith. He said, don't believe it. ETs are full of deception. He was one of the first to say this.

Did you know that UFOs/ETs and the occult have much in common? True.




This is a very interesting series . . .

UFO's & Aliens - End Time Delusion 1-9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOWpP3783Ug

UFO's & Aliens - End Time Delusion 2-9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip17HvbVVr0&feature=related

UFO's & Aliens - End Time Delusion 3-9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWI6Jm0GQZ4&feature=related
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 3, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
go easy on klim--this stuff is all waffle batter.

looking at john keel, the trail led to j. allen hynek and jacques vallee, the heretic among heretics. rox should look it over. rox is a "nuts and bolts" ufo'er. these guys started out that way too.

the best antidote to all this crap is happiness. live a happy life and they all get jealous, from god to sasquatch to dick cheney.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2010 - 10:23am PT
Klimmer's got company.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/10/01/120926.html

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 4, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
More proof that NASA is up to no good! Apollo conspiracy
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
Enhanced NASA imagery reveals aliens on the moon!

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 4, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
you do have to give klim a shred of credit--this thread has been of high interest. i've ignored ufology up until now, and this has occasioned a mini-education on the subject for me. i will continue to ignore it in the future, but for different reasons.

the only drawback on this thread has been the art. the best ST threads generate terrific art. i believe pate has run out of nuns and survival has run out of legs.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 4, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Hey, the Martians love us too.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
Proof that UFO's exist! Klimmer saw pictures of them on the Internet! If they weren't real, there wouldn't be pictures of them!






Look how closely synchronized they are. This is proof that they are from a much more advanced alien civilization. Or is it proof that it is a government conspiracy?





































































































































































































If that didn't convince you, here is More Proof!




If you saw just one little green man in a flying saucer, you might have some doubts. But how can you argue with EIGHTEEN of them! Count them!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
Let's pull this thread back into reality shall we?








How many of you have heard of the "Star Child"? A friend told me about it. I didn't know anything regarding it, until recently.

Very interesting. Empirical science. So tell me what is going on here?


http://www.starchildproject.com/

Watch the embedded video. Pretty incredible. Scientists are working out the full genetic genome. It is part human and part alien (perhaps). It definately has some morphological differences that are clearly very different from humans. It has been radiometrically dated just over 900 years old. Found in Northern Mexico, in the Copper Canyon, in the 1930s.


Artist's empressions of what it looks like:
http://www.starchildproject.com/artists.htm


More videos on Star Child:
http://www.youtube.com/officiallloydpye

Pretty incredible.


An Alien mating with a Earthly Human Mother and having an off-spring. Sounds exactly like Nephilim, as the Good Book describes. The Return of the Nephilim. This could very well be the evidence.

I'll be paying attention to this project.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:02pm PT
Let's pull this thread back into reality shall we?
A rather tall order, it seems.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:27pm PT
Klimmer, the man who mistook his hat for a UFO.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
hey, a slight improvement in artwork, but you may be offending some mormons with that.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:32pm PT
Single amplifications for fragments containing the diagnostic mutations for Native American haplogroups A, B, C and D[2] did not reveal a known Native American haplogroup, however, the extraction did not amplify consistently. A single amplification of a fragment of the mtDNA first hypervariable segment (HVSI) between np 16210 and np 16328 was sequenced using a cycle sequencing procedure with ABI Big-Dye 3.1 chemistry and analyzed on an ABI automated genetic analyzer. The sequence obtained revealed a transition relative to the Cambridge reference sequence at np16273. This sequence did not match either any personnel with access to the ancient DNA facilities or a sequence obtained from Mr. Pye. Subsequent amplifications of this fragment were not successful and the sequence could not be confirmed. Attempts to amplify fragments of the amelogenin gene located on the X and Y chromosome[3] were uniformly not successful.

In short - absolutely no trace of 'alien' DNA.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
An Alien mating with a Earthly Human Mother and having an off-spring

Bwaaaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha---SNORK!---Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!

Ok, I nominate this topic as "the best thread ever". I cannot stop laughing! Too F-ing funny!

What else have ya got?!
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
From wikipedia,


Pye's ideas have been subject to criticism by the scientific skepticism movement, generally citing a lack of any compelling evidence for the grander claims, and the dubious status of the smaller. One example is the unusual skull mentioned above, which Pye proposes is the product of a human/alien crossbreeding program. Steven Novella of the New England Skeptical Society suggested in 1999 that the odd shape is caused by congenital hydrocephalus, a comparatively common affliction rarely noticed in developed countries due to its ease of treatment. Pye claims that 900 years ago, when the Starchild was born, congenital hydrocephalus would very likely have caused death long before its teeth had a chance to erupt and then be heavily worn by use.

Novella points out that if a child suffered from untreated hydrocephalus until age four or five, their skull would display distortions in almost every feature. All of the proper bones, prominences, holes, and sutures would be present, as they are in the Starchild skull (except for its missing inion on the occipital), but they would be deformed and displaced, as they are in the Starchild skull. Some cases of hydrocephalus can build up over time, so a child with this disorder could survive several years, and if untreated (today hydrocephalus is treatable with surgery to drain the fluid) would probably die at several years of age.

The concept of (proto) humans interbreeding with aliens has been brought into question. All life on earth is remarkably closely related on a molecular biological scale - as demonstrated by the universal role of DNA, RNA, translation, and the genetic code. Although DNA and proteins could be supposed to be prerequisites for any form of complex organic life, the arbitrary nature of the genetic code suggests, but in no way proves, that completely independently evolved alien life would have an entirely different code. Hence, alien "genes" might not be compatible with the human protein expression apparatus, in which case cross breeding could not occur. However, in vitro conception between different species remains a possibility. On this subject, Carl Sagan has remarked that during a normal sexual encounter "humans are more likely to interbreed with a petunia" than an alien species.[citation needed]

Furthermore, humans and other organisms are extremely closely related on the genetic scale: for example, humans share between 97% and 99% of their genomic DNA sequence with chimpanzees, and about 30 percent of all human proteins are identical in sequence to the corresponding chimp protein (see Chimpanzee Genome Project). Phylogenetic comparisons of mitochondrial and ribosomal DNA across species ranging from humans to bacteria verify the evolutionary relationships suggested by the fossil record. Current genetic evidence therefore suggests an intimate genetic relationship between humans and other terrestrial organisms, and provides a strong contrary argument to Pye's claims of alien interbreeding. Pye counters by saying that humans have only 46 chromosomes, while all other higher primates have 48, which does not sound to him like natural evolution at work. This has recently been explained as the fusion of two ancestral chromosomes, see Ken Miller.
A comparison of mitochondrial DNA sequences from humans, Neandertals and chimps demonstrates the relatedness of all three species, and the intermediacy of Neandertals.

Pye's claims that Neandertals and other early hominids were not related to humans is viewed as incorrect by the scientific community. Extraction of mitochondrial DNA from the original German Neandertal fossil, and comparison to modern humans and chimpanzees demonstrated that the Neandertal sequence was effectively intermediate between humans and chimps.[3] Moreover, Neandertals were sufficiently different from them to be recognised as a separate species.

A number of the supposedly unanswered mysteries that Pye poses in his book Everything You Know Is Wrong have also been criticised. For example:

* Pye claims "humans use only about 10% of our massively supercharged brains". This long-standing myth originated with phrenology.[4] Brain imaging methods appear to refute the 10% brain use statement. For example, positron emission tomography (PET) scans show that much of the brain is active during many different tasks.[5]

* Pye claims that the human genetic array as it exists today is "only 150,000 to 200,000 years old". In fact, certain human genes such as those encoding histones are common to all eukaryotes and identical to many other primates' histone genes, and are more than 1.8 billion years old.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 4, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
Alien hybrids


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
You ripped a page from the starchild project page....which probably means its bullsh#t. The doctor, "Ted Robinson", is part of the starchild project. Not really an unbiased source of information.

Also, while the skull's deformities cannot be explained by a single congenital disorder, they can be explained by a combination of disorders.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 4, 2010 - 10:36pm PT
Dr Farouq al-Baz, who worked 43 years in NASA, told Alarabiya.net that he was sure that the ghouls, Jinns and demons live among us and said that he came to the conclusion through his scientific predisposition meshed with his complete believe in Quran verses signifying their existence.

Must be the Jinns.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2010/10/01/120926.html
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 4, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
Farouk el-Baz only worked for NASA for about ten years. He is Egyptian-American, and a Muslim - just as Christians "believe" in angels, Muslims often believe in djinns, afreets, and so on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farouk_El-Baz
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
Ok Rox,

I want an analysis of the skull performed by a university level forensic anthropologist along with a biologist who is currently doing research on pediatric congenital disorders....until then you're just making sh#t up.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:14pm PT
Does the picture in my last post have any Mormon or anti-Mormon themes? I didn't catch that. If it does I apologize. I just thought the hat/UFO was funny.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
"An Alien mating with a Earthly Human Mother and having an off-spring"

Bwaaaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha---SNORK!---Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!

Ok, I nominate this topic as "the best thread ever". I cannot stop laughing! Too F-ing funny!


Is this "science" for "sci-fi fantasy porn?"

Klimmer reports!

You decide!

Edit: It doesn't show anything but some may think it's NSFW so I've decided to make this a link. http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/alien-encounter.jpg
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
Hybrid aliens exist.













































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































I have one on my rack.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
Bible code deciphered:


W



h




o











c





a







r






e






s







?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
Each of these suggestions has been taken seriously, and conscientious research has been undertaken to try and find a simple medical reason for the anomalous skull. At this time, no known medical condition or cultural practice has been identified that can explain the Starchild Skull.

Therefore, it must be an Alien/Human lovechild!!!!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
There is only one AUTHORITATIVE web site for HYBRID ALIENS























http://www.aliencamsbycch.com/products.html
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
Three words are sufficient to show the entire community you were paying attention. If you can't come up with those three (or four) words, you ain't even read the thread.

I win.

3 words: "Klimmer is crazy."

4 words: "Klimmer is really crazy."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 4, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
Also Lloyd Pye goes into the history of the abuse on Wikipedia against Star Child.

They have a rebuttal that will not continuously get revised on their own website.

When Wikipedia purposefully changes revisions and updates, and then changes it back to wrong information, and then locks it, something isn't right. Wiki can be a good resource when not dealing with contraversial topics. You always have to reconfirm statments on Wiki with other reliable resources.

Here it is:

http://www.starchildproject.com/wikipedia.htm



Rokjox,


You proved with said HiRis MRO image that the 3D giant golfball was indeed ice. More than likely CO2 ice. You found the image and brought it to our attention. Good job. I remember.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
granite, we're trying real hard not to offend anyone on this thread unless they deserve it. obviously, klimmer should bear the full brunt. it's probably just me, but for some reason that guy looked like a mormon pioneer. seems like i've seen the photo before, but if it was provided to you by aliens, i stand corrected.

um, one of the big problems with this star child is something they call the chain of evidence. very questionable origins.

dna is earth-evolved. trying to tell us the chemical evolutionary code on another planet would come close enough for interbreeding? that's a stretch, to say the least.

coincidentally, however, that's what david icke is telling us. dick cheney is part lizard man, descended from alien visitations of long ago. i wouldn't give it a second thought if cathy o'brien weren't "confirming" it. i wanna go home.

info and disinfo all mixed together so people will stop questioning and thinking they can ever do anything about it. can't bust open the gov files, can't serve warrants on powerful criminals, can't get the simple information we ought to get to lay anomalies to rest, can't expect anything to be investigated except marijuana plantations or justice beyond the tasing of peaceful pranksters. we are scum, as#@&%es, and don't deserve democracy, can't you get the message?
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Oct 4, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
"An Alien mating with a Earthly Human Mother and having an off-spring"

Bwaaaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha---SNORK!---Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!

Ok, I nominate this topic as "the best thread ever". I cannot stop laughing! Too F-ing funny!


--Skeptimistic












...yet, when an Archangel (Gabriel) supposedly inseminates Mary and produces a "god" in Jesus--the world rejoices and proclaims it an unexplainable "MIRACLE", to be accepted without prejudice.



Give ME a break...



...you're the "funny" one





graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 12:00am PT
Here is the official NASA Starchild web site.



http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/StarChild.html
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 5, 2010 - 12:02am PT
Now that's a REAL Anchor Baby!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 12:11am PT




Are you a human-alien hybrid? Take the OMNI self-help quiz to find out






http://www.astralgia.com/webportfolio/omnimoment/archives/open_book/almanac/quiz.html
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 5, 2010 - 12:39am PT
Authority and expertise do exist in this world, and its not a fallacy. You just ignore it and favor your own version of reality.

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 5, 2010 - 12:41am PT
...you're the "funny" one

????? Uh, dood, you might want to put down whatever it is that you're smoking/shooting/snorting and rethink what you think is my position on the whole bible thing.

Wow.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:05am PT
Is wrestling real?

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:05am PT
I mean to say, these petty minded Supertopo posters are the same ones who vociferously denied the evidence that some have held forth that the Pentagon 9-11 airplane discrepancies were being promoted by idiots with no knowledge of actual flight characteristics of jumbo jets.

We are dealing with the same crazy lunatic goofballs who think that 9-11 was an "inside job." hahahahahah










graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:10am PT
Seen in another thread, but more fitting here.










graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:32am PT
"you are a fake intellectual, a troll and a fraud as a man of intellect. Just another idiot."

Maybe so.

But I am a fake intellectual with a job.

Rox, if you put a quarter the effort into finding a job as you did into your um, "research" in this thread, you'd have found a job long long time ago.

Maybe you could sell hats.




































































graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:47am PT
Rokjox, 10:11 PM: "you are a fake intellectual, a troll and a fraud as a man of intellect. Just another idiot."

Rokjox, 10:39 PM: "Ad Hominen attacks. The refuge of a fraud."





































Rox, go to your doctor. Ask to be evaluated for Bipolar II Disorder.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 5, 2010 - 01:54am PT
Rox, you've been unemployed for THREE years now?

How times flies when you are having fun.

Now I understand why you don't have a job. You say you are spending countless hours to this thread! To me it is just a passing amusement. I ask myself, can people really be this crazy? (Yes, they can!)

In a few days or a few months, this thread will be dead, just like your employment prospects, and you will have nothing to show for all your time.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 5, 2010 - 02:26am PT
Graniteclimber, whats your problem with not having a job. I love it when I might have a day, a week or more without a job, I might get some freedom to do whatever I want to do. Be an American. Are you against being an American Mr Climber? Are you against freedom?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 5, 2010 - 02:40am PT
Well, someone was smart enough to archive the references Pye supplied before he deleted them from his website:

References
1. Joel D. Wallach, BS, DVM, ND (Comparative Pathologist), “Preliminary Histology Report – Starchild Project,” unpublished, July 7 1999, 1.

2. Ken Pye, PhD, Director Kenneth Pye Associates Ltd., “Summary of ‘inorganic’ chemistry work done to date,” unpublished, received June 1 2005, p1 (referencing fig. 2).

3. Ted Robinson, M.D., LMCC, FRCS (c), Vancouver, B.C., “A Preliminary Analysis of a Highly Unusual Human-Like Skull,” StarchildProject, 25 Sept 2004, 4.

4. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 6.

5. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 12.

6. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 7.

7. Lloyd Pye, “A Condensed Analysis of Two Unusual Skulls of Uncertain Origin,” StarchildProject.

8. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 18.

9. Ken Pye, “Summary of ‘inorganic’ chemistry”, p1-2, fig 1.

10. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 15.

11. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 12.

12. Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 3.

13. Ibid.

14. Lloyd Pye, “Starchild: Fibers and Residue” (slideshow presentation), StarchildProject, slide 2

15. Jason Eshleman, MA, PhD, Director, Trace Genetics, Richmond, CA, “Report on the DNA analysis from skeletal remains from two skulls,” Trace Genetics,StarchildProject, 12 Aug 2003, 2-4.

16.Ted Robinson, “Preliminary Analysis,” 4.

17. Lloyd Pye, “Starchild: Fibers and Residue” (slideshow presentation), StarchildProject, slide 18.

And starting with Ted himself (Ted Robinson, M.D., LMCC, FRCS (c), Vancouver, B.C.) he apparently is not a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons - feel free to check yourself or to find any references for him outside of Starchild.

And then of course there are the ten specialists Ted says corroborate his take on the skull:

Dr. Fred Smith, Head of Pediatrics, Children’s Hospital, New Orleans, La.

Dr. David Hodges, Radiologist, Royal Columbian Hospital, New Westminster, B.C.

Dr. John Bachynsky, Radiologist, New Westminster, B.C.

Dr. Ken Poskitt, Pediatric Neuroradiologist, Vancouver Children’s Hospital

Dr. Ian Jackson, (formerly of Mayo Clinic), Craniofacial Plastic Surgeon, Michigan

Dr. John McNicoll, Craniofacial Plastic Surgeon, Seattle

Dr. Mike Kaburda, Oral Surgeon, New Westminster, B.C.

Dr. Tony Townsend, Ophthalmologist, Vancouver

Dr. Hugh Parsons, Ophthalmologist, Vancouver

Dr David Sweet, Forensic Odontologist, Vancouver

Just try and find some non-skychild google references to this crew - Dr. Fred Smith doesn't seem to exist. The only Canadian Dr. John Bachynsky is a pharamcist. Dr. Ian Jackson appears legit. "Dr. John McNicoll" lived and published, in 1881. Dr. David Hodges is legit.

Dr. Mike Kaburda is well-known, for strippers:

In 1973, the Ski Boot Motel was sold to new owners for $350,000. Details about the sale and any changes made to the building are difficult to come by as they predate the incorporation of the municipality and records are either non-existent or have disappeared. The earliest available building plans are from 1978.

Dr. Michael Kaburda and three of his friends purchased and operated the property from 1976 to 1978, renaming the lodge the White Gold Inn. Kaburda takes credit for introducing exotic dancing to Whistler, and therefore as the originator of the Boot Ballet perhaps deserves a special place in the history of Whistler’s cultural development.

http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/pique/index.php?view=login&redirect=content&cat=&content=Feature%201317

Dr. Tony Townsend doesn't exist whereas Dr. Hugh Parsons and Dr. David Sweet do.

I count three legit cites in the list and you'd have to see exactly what they wrote about it to know anything. None of what's cited above is peer-reviewed and Pye shopped hard for a commercial DNA lab when any number of educational institutions in Canada and the US would have done it. All in all complete and utter bullsh#t with no 'science' involved at all.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 5, 2010 - 03:21am PT
Those guys made a fortune selling the Boot hotel to condo developers, or they did it themselves, I'm not sure which. I had many fine experiences at the Boot. Stripers were only 3 nights a week. Best halloween parties ever at the Boot too.

How does making a stack of cash owning and operating the Boot PUB in Whistler reflect badly on your credibility ?? Whistler real estate was better than gold. Myself and the Boot owners did very well on it.

Failed logic AGAIN healyje.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 5, 2010 - 03:24am PT
Again, that's your citation? A real expert no doubt. But of course there's no presentation whatsoever of what he may or may not have actually documented. In fact, nothing from any of the ten is presented in their own documentation. Tripe.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 5, 2010 - 04:21am PT
There are no peer-reviewed scientific papers of any kind on the 'starchild' skull. In fact, Pye hasn't released a single document from any of the people Robinson claims examined it. And after the 'Kennewick Man' episode, there is no shortage of organized resources to do any number of reputable peer-reviewed examinations of the skull in question. Hell, he could just drop it by BC Children's hospital and get opinions on the record. UW Seattle has a specialty in Medical Anthropology and would likely be happy to look at it. Scientists of all stripes would be clamoring to get at it if they thought there was anything there.

Sadly, a simple google image search brings up a unfortunate litany of such 'alien' children of human parents.

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=hydrocephalus&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1475&bih=890
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 12:11am PT
Many of you will just dismiss this out of hand, and think it is Bat-poop-crazy, but those who really want to know more and really want to know what is going on then you will give it an interesting listen . . .

Russ Dizdar is a true Christian and he is on the front battle line and fighting Lucifer and his minions hand to hand. Many people come to him for help. He has an incredible experience, education, and extensive work with Law Enforcement agencies. You really want to know what is going on at the deepest levels, then you will listen . . .


RUSS DIZDAR - UFO'S OCCULT NAZI'S & DEMONS
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7449168936702962073&hl=en#docid=6185998815458815878


Russ Dizdar’s Website: Shatter the Darkness.net
http://www.shatterthedarkness.net/
Russ Dizdar’s Bio: (Normally, I don’t trust LEOs much. Russ, I could trust. Why can’t more police officer’s be like him?)
http://www.shatterthedarkness.net/page32.html

One of his books:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-black-awakening-rise-of-the-satanic-super-soldiers-and-the-coming-chaos/5965594?productTrackingContext=product_view/related_items/left/1
http://www.theblackawakening.com/
Russ Dizdar: Mind Control Conference, the black awakening
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7449168936702962073&hl=en#


Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 1of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ57GILGLik&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 2of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLktYRvQnk0&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 3of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0kAJHL3Z7w&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 4of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvIOCMlmCeU&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 5of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuKbj6E4mM&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 6of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0SXS450tfM&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 7of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rAUlPDG7yg&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 8of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CKFHdmFFqs&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 9of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DPPWrLIveE&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 10of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1IKhjLD9DU&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 11of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVD_bsP4Shw&feature=related
Russ Dizdar, Exorcism, MPD, SRA, The Black Awakening 12of12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrd_tQW8qz8&feature=related








"Deception always leads to destruction."
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 6, 2010 - 01:38am PT
klim, have you checked out david icke? he's kinda like you, except he isn't christian. lotta people get excited about him and i think they pay $80 for a ticket to hear him speak. i check his website from time to time--he seems to have the inside track on the power game in europe, which really seems to dictate what gets done in the u.s.a., which has become kind of a puppet. but i'll never believe that lizardmen bred with earthlings and that dick cheney shape-shifts back into one when he's having a senior moment. for one thing, it'd be an insult to lizards, decent little critters of some dignity just trying to make a living like the rest of us.

i'm afraid healyje's little gallery is pretty telling. can we get back to the paranormal now?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 6, 2010 - 02:28am PT
Oh no! He's baaaaaaack!



Bat-poop-crazy

But he finally got it right!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 09:45am PT
Tony,

Yes, I know about David Icke. I have watched his interview with a former Occult High Preistess. Several times. Very strange. She says she witnessed these things and they are for real. She is now in protective custody with those who truly care about her. This has connections all the way to the Vatican, deep down in the Vatican -- literally.

I know that what Lucifer is capable of doing is very evil, dark, sinister and yes he does have powers. But they are limited.

I know all of this is bizarre, but there are those like Russ who work in this mission field every day and they know it and see it all the time. Personally, I don't ever care to witness this stuff. I know it is real, and we as believers have far greater powers than the evil one, and true believers can cast out devils just like Jesus did. But it is scary stuff.

I would say that is a wonderful benefit from being close to GOD, protection from evil. Why wouldn't anyone want this? You care about yourself, your family, and your friends? So why doesn't everyone come running to GOD? Abductions stop when those people experiencing them turn to GOD.

What are you waiting for? Would be my answer. But, I know how it is. I went through it too. I rebelled and left GOD. I'm glad he is a forgiving GOD. Like the Prodigal Son, he took me back. :-))
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 6, 2010 - 10:05am PT
klim, you're just carrying on a mythological struggle that began with the prokaryotic. god never wins the fight. lucifer never gets thrust into hell, despite all the prayers for it. if god is all-powerful, he's playing games with us, as he did with poor old job, making side bets with lucifer. god should sign up for the compulsive gambler's 12-step. then he'd have to pray to a "higher power".

i did go to a couple religious colleges, klim, loyola university of chicago and st. thomas university (then college) in st. paul, minnesota. i have to tell you that catholics are a lot more sophisticated, intellectually, than most christians, yourself included. no offense intended, you're an educated guy in your own way, but i think your religion is a child's religion, and not in a good sense. i'd live and let live in the belief department, except that i think belief is part of the problem of our times, and we're both in agreement on what some of the problems are. belief divides us and prevents us from acting together when we need to. i think it has become part of a not-so-divine plan.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Oct 6, 2010 - 11:06am PT
The Jinns are invading China now!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/8043055/UFO-closes-Chinese-airport.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 6, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
Dalai Lama:

We can think of honesty and dishonesty in terms of the relationship between appearance and reality. Sometimes these synchronize, often they do not; but when they do, that is honesty, as I understand it. So we are honest when our actions are what they seem to be. When we pretend to be one thing but in reality we are something else, suspicion develops in others, causing fear. And fear is something we all wish to avoid.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 6, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLktYRvQnk0&feature=related


After watching this video I see no further reason to post to your threads. You've completely lost it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 6, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
Port, just remember that Rox will call you a "fraud" unless you watch ALL of the videos.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
klim, you're just carrying on a mythological struggle that began with the prokaryotic. god never wins the fight. lucifer never gets thrust into hell, despite all the prayers for it. if god is all-powerful, he's playing games with us, as he did with poor old job, making side bets with lucifer. god should sign up for the compulsive gambler's 12-step. then he'd have to pray to a "higher power".

Tony, it is easy to see you know the stories and perhaps have read The Good Book, but it is easy to see you also dimiss it ou of hand. But so much of the Good Book addresses these issues. GOD is straight and honest the entire time. He doesn't lie. He tells the truth. He also tells you what is coming before it happens. We know why Lucifer fell. We know what he was thinking. We also know that GOD called him on it, and there is a coming destruction of Lucifer and his minions.

The Good Book would also tell you, Who are you to judge GOD? Who are you to tell GOD what to do? His ways are not our ways. We do not have a complete picture, he does. We can not understand all of it right now, that is for sure. But I trust him. Apparently you do not. You think he has something up his sleeve. Apparently you do not know the life and love of Jesus Christ if you think that. Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with us. He proved who he is and how he cares. He also told us once again, what will happen before it happens. He told us not to be afraid.

I trust him.

i did go to a couple religious colleges, klim, loyola university of chicago and st. thomas university (then college) in st. paul, minnesota. i have to tell you that catholics are a lot more sophisticated, intellectually, than most christians, yourself included. no offense intended, you're an educated guy in your own way, but i think your religion is a child's religion, and not in a good sense. i'd live and let live in the belief department, except that i think belief is part of the problem of our times, and we're both in agreement on what some of the problems are. belief divides us and prevents us from acting together when we need to. i think it has become part of a not-so-divine plan.

Why did you go to Religious Colleges? Did you want to or did your parents force you? It is obvious that you reject it all. So did you waste your time?

Once again you assume too much. I know a great deal about Catholicism, my children go to Catholic school. We are Protestant. My family is most closely Methodist. My wife and I decided to send our children to Catholic school because they would be safe, learn about GOD, prayer, the Golden Rule, and miss the Middle School hell of public school. They will probably return to public school in High School after a good moral foundation. The Catholic faith is Christian. Not sure why you would think it is not. Do I agree with all the Catholic Doctrine? No. At the surface Catholicism is fine, it is only the deep deep doctrines that most don't know about that I don't agree with. Sacraments: does the Wine and Bread really turn into the blood and body of Jesus? No it does not. Yet, that is what Catholic doctrine says happens. Most Catholics do not know this. In Catholic School, my children will get a regular secular education. They learn and are taught Evolution, and not a 6 day, 6000 year old Earth story. Once again we are Theistic Evolutionists. The Earth is 4.56 - 4.6 Billion years old, just as science has discovered it is. GOD doesn't lie. But people can and do misinterpret the Bible. Check out PhD Gerald Schroeder, The Science of GOD.

I would completely disagree with you about belief. The only reason the Earth hasn't been destroyed yet, and why evil hasn't completely run rampant all over Earth, is because of those who TRULY believe. Like Jesus said, believers are the Salt of the Earth. We preserve it. Blessed are the Peace makers.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLktYRvQnk0&feature=related


After watching this video I see no further reason to post to your threads. You've completely lost it.



Port that is your choice. Then don't.


But it isn't me you are argueing with, it would be Russ Dizdar. He has 30 years of exerience with this. Police departments come to him. He deals with this stuff all the time. His experience (over 30 years) and working with Police departments, kind of trumps your experience, which is none.

I'm willing to guess that you don't have any experience in the occult, excorcism, and combating and working with these spiritual phenomena. And that would be a good thing. But if you do not have any experience, how can you say anything one way or another and then dismiss it? Intellectually you can not.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
I'm willing to guess that you don't have any experience in the occult, excercism, and combating and working with these spiritual phenomena. And that would be a good thing. But if you do not have any experience, how can you say anything one way or another and then dismiss it? Intellectually you can not.

how can one have experience in something that doesnt exist?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
Whether you believe it exists or not is besides the point.

The people involved DO BELIEVE IT, and as a result do all kinds of monsterous things, vicious crimes etc. etc. under these Santanic influences.

That is why law enforcement is involved, and why they indeed do learn about aspects of the occult, even take courses on it so they can identify it, and call in those who know much more than they do, hence people like Russ Dizdar.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 6, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
^^^^^

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
GC, that is a satanic cat!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
Once again, whether you think it is real or not does not matter.

It happens. They believe it and then do it. It is real in that sense whether you think the laws of physics can't or don't allow it or not.

There are secret societies, with secret oaths, they hide their memberships, they are Lucerferian (worship Lucifer = satan), they are into the occult, and they do vicious, heniuos crimes, wicked crimes, and yes they have secret agendas.

Are you going to disbute this?

Law enforcement knows this. They have to deal with it.

Yet you scoff and laugh.

Can climbers on ST pull their heads out and think? I sure hope so. We live life to the fullest and on the edges of the extremes, yet some of you dismiss this reality with no clue.

Why? Do you know all? I don't think you do.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 6, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
There are secret societies, with secret oaths, they hide their memberships, they are Lucerferian (worship Lucifer = satan), they are into the occult, and they do vicious, heniuos crimes, wicked crimes, and yes they have secret agendas.
What, base jumping in wing suits? I guess the bat wings could be seen as vaguely satanic - good Hallowe'en costumes.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
There are secret societies, with secret oaths, they hide their memberships, they are Christian (worship Diety = God), they are into the occult, and they do vicious, heniuos crimes, wicked crimes, and yes they have secret agendas.

klimmer, i replaced a few key words and in some cases this is still true too! ok, maybe they don't hide their memberships but sure as hell some of them hide their agendas and have committed wicked crimes.

fact is, there are bad people in all walks of life, christian, mormon, catholic atheists etc.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 6, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 03:08pm PT
lol.

No. BASE jumping and BASE jumpers are ok. GOD has given them a pass.

Sadly, LEOs don't see it that way and treat them as devils. LEOs are a little confussed on this point. Back to school.

BASE jumping is not a crime. Neither is paragliding, climbing, skateboarding, BC skiing etc. etc.

:-))
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
Hawkeye,

Actually, The Good Book, GOD, and Jesus are strictly against the taking of secret oaths and secret societies.

If they do this, then right there they are not Christian.

So I disagree.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
well disagreement is fine. IMHO all those jjerks on christian TV that rake in a bunch of $ for tele-church are crooks.

doesnt matter what the publicly present....



EDIT: where does it say that in the Goodbook? how do you kow that the goodbook is actually true???
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 03:53pm PT
I don't agree with asking for money that way either. Some are blessed though for giving what they can. There are better ways to fund raise.


Secret societies and secret oaths: the Bible, GOD, and Jesus (Remember, Jesus is Emmanuel, GOD with us) say don't do it . . .


Ephesians 5:12 ESV
"For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."


John 18:20
"I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."


Matthew 5:34-46
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -- Jesus is qouting the Old Testament here and expounding on it.


Much more here:
http://www.masonicalert.com/secretsocieties.htm
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 6, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
Klimmer, I'm beginning to get it. You start with good v. evil, extrapolate to god v. satan, and then under that rubric you pretty much have a place for everything including science, religion, ufo's, sasquatch, nessie, 9/11, secret societies, any conspiracy at all, shadow governments, unicorns, faeries, and santa claus - doesn't really matter what it is, you have a spot for it in your taxonomy.

I suppose that works for you, but I can't see any understanding of science, 'evidence', 'facts', or even much common sense in your amusing amalgamation of beliefs. Sort of a witches brew of the absurd.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 6, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
you're talkin' to a guy in his 60s here, klim. some of us actually change our points of view in the course of our lives. if i had it to do over again, i sure wouldn't go to those schools.

your "good book", if you could examine it critically, is a rather selective edition of the contradictory literature of a confused but powerful religious tradition.

what really turned me off about christianity, klim, is its perpetual state of crisis. it comes out here in your own hopes and fears. it promises peace, but true peace is put off until heaven. what it delivers is a lifetime of guilt and fear and a "civilization" of perpetual war or rumors of war. always the terrible damnation, always the heroic salvation, always the foxy devil. jesus is a panacea that gets sprinkled everywhere like pixie dust off tinkerbell. it just wore me down, mostly because it never delivered the good stuff it promises. i've come to believe that lots of people renew their religious beliefs because they get married, have families, get a good job. this happens with christians, muslims, buddhists, communists. on the negative side, they may resort to religion because they need it to straighten something out--addictions, criminality, whatever. i never had those good things come to me, and i never went so far astray that i had to reform myself. i've gotten the good things and managed the negative on my own. i look in nature, and that's exactly what every evolved critter happens to do as well. i think you christians are missing the real message, pal.

my religion began with the outdoors, and it's still there. i noticed early on what a great relief it was to get out of mass on sunday and go down to the lake.

just a word of advice, klim. if you don't buy the catholic program, i don't advise subjecting your kids to it.

--


btw, i did have a comment on what port had to say. i don't seem to have posted it, and i hope i'm not repeating myself--

klim's posting about russ dizdar is really nothing extraordinary, and it makes me wonder what you know about the world. exorcism has been a part of the catholic tradition for centuries and a fairly credible movie--the exorcist--was made on the subject in the 1970s. these things happen, they're part of the real world, the difference is in interpretation. in the catholic high school i went to we had a priest describe an exorcism he once attended. they are rare events, but they do take place. many catholic priests are well-trained in psychology and mental health therapy, and those means are generally exhausted before anyone starts talking about exorcism. his story was scary and chilling--objects being flung by invisible forces around the room in apparent anger--but he himself was entirely credible.

klim and the pope have a handy explanation for this. others have been comparing notes with other areas of the paranormal and think it isn't strictly the battle line of good versus evil, but a frontier of things unknown, though not necessarily unknowable.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
I don't agree with asking for money that way either. Some are blessed though for giving what they can. There are better ways to fund raise.


Secret societies and secret oaths: the Bible, GOD, and Jesus (Remember, Jesus is Emmanuel, GOD with us) say don't do it . . .


Ephesians 5:12 ESV
"For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."


John 18:20
"I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."


Matthew 5:34-46
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -- Jesus is qouting the Old Testament here and expounding on it.

i guess i just can't read biblese but i see nothing about secret societies nor oaths.

but what the hell, if you interpret that out of there i bet there is a passage in there saying i am a god and women will swoon over me...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
Secret societies and secret oaths: the Bible, GOD, and Jesus (Remember, Jesus is Emmanuel, GOD with us) say don't do it . . .


Ephesians 5:12 ESV
"For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."


John 18:20
"I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing."


Matthew 5:34-46
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." -- Jesus is qouting the Old Testament here and expounding on it.


Much more here:
http://www.masonicalert.com/secretsocieties.htm






guess i just can't read biblese but i see nothing about secret societies nor oaths.

but what the hell, if you interpret that out of there i bet there is a passage in there saying i am a god and women will swoon over me...





Hawkeye,

I will hold your hand. Yes, reading the Bible is difficult for some people.

Eph. 5:12
Means - Not only is it shameful that people do things in secret, but it is shameful to even to have to talk about what things they do in secret.

Secret societies are all about hiding and doing things in secret. That is shameful. Therefore Christians are not to do that.


John 18:20
Means - Jesus spoke openly to the World. He never had a secret agenda, nor did he say things in secret.

As Christians we are to live Christ like lives. Therefore, we can never be a part of a secret society. Secret Societies have secret agendas and they say things in secret. Christians can't do that. That is not Christ like to do so. No Christian can be a "Member of Skull and Bones" or the Masons and be a true Christian.


Matthew 5:34-46
Means - We are not to take oaths or swear an oath, but simply that our affirmation should be an affirmation, or our Yes should mean yes, and our No should mean No.

Christians should not take oaths, or swear an oath. Our Yes should mean Yes, and our No should mean No. You either agree to a statement or you do not agree.

Even when taking an Oath of Service to join the US Armed Forces, they allow an affirmation of the allegiance and to protect the Constitution, you do not have to swear an allegiance, just for this reason -- religious reasons that forbid the swearing of oaths.

So once again, true Christians can not be members of Secret Societies that require Secret Oaths or Oaths of any kind.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 6, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
gee thanks! what about that passage of women coming on to me and procreating the earth?

and, uh, well, what does this have to do with aliens? those blue babes in Avatar were'nt bad i guess...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 6, 2010 - 07:42pm PT
it's interesting to note that u.s. history went through a number of stages trying to stamp out secret societies. there was specifically an anti-mason ticket--i think john quincy adams was involved in that. a real tug-of-war between the secret and the public.

secret societies are nothing new--they seem to be inherent in our anthropology. many cultures, "primitive" and otherwise, have subsets which operate in secret. probably rather inevitable, and it inevitably subverts the public interest. klimmer's looking at religious history through rosy-colored glasses if he thinks it hasn't infected both judaism and christianity to the max. take note, buddy: lots of what appears in your "good book" is superwishful thinking.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
Like all Lunatics

Klimmer believes he is the only one that gets it

and the rest of us are all wrong


Dr. F,

No I do not. I learn everyday. I even learn from you guys. I learn patience, lots and lots of patience. lol.

(Actually, truthfully, I do learn a great deal from posters here on ST, even those I most often disagree with.)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
The coveted 1777 post.




Klimmer, I'm beginning to get it. You start with good v. evil, extrapolate to god v. satan, and then under that rubric you pretty much have a place for everything including science, religion, ufo's, sasquatch, nessie, 9/11, secret societies, any conspiracy at all, shadow governments, unicorns, faeries, and santa claus - doesn't really matter what it is, you have a spot for it in your taxonomy.

I suppose that works for you, but I can't see any understanding of science, 'evidence', 'facts', or even much common sense in your amusing amalgamation of beliefs. Sort of a witches brew of the absurd.


HJ,


You are radically oversimplifying along with lots of false ridicule.

Science and religion as I have said many times before are two different human endeavors, but compatible. They are just 2 of many human endeavors that make-up the human experience. A good scientist can participate in both. Do I have to repeat the history of modern Astronomy and Physics to you starting with Aristotle,and continuing with Copernicus, Tycho Brahe/Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and even Einstein? Most were men of science and men of faith. Perhaps you are cutting off your full potential by dismissing the spiritual aspect of the World, the spiritual aspect of the Universe?

Science is about Nature and Cosmic Order. Answers What? and How? questions. Deals with the physical, the empirical. Science is a tool. Science is a powerful tool, but just as any tool it cannot work for all situations, science can not answer all questions.

Religion is about Nature and Cosmic Purpose. Answers Why? questions. Why questions denote Who did it? and Why did they do it? What does it all mean? Religion is a tool of knowledge and one would hope a personal relationship with the Creator, if one believes in such a religion. But just as Science can not answer all questions, it can't answer questions regarding the spiritual world and all the why questions. Religion can not answer those questions of What? and How? These are physical questions that science can answer.

Sometimes the physical is reflected in the spiritual, such as in The Holy Bible. And I would argue just as the Good Book argues that the spiritual world is reflected in the physical world. Even though The Good Book is not a Science Book, it does indeed make statements that are scientifically sound as we understand the Natural world today. And these statements were written thousands of years before they became a part of our modern knowledge.

The Holy Bible is like no other Book. It is a Book of yesterday, today, and tomorrow. A Book of the past, the present, and the future. It indeed knows all. You can scoff at Bible Code, but researchers are finding that the messages are going well beyond the short powerful messages that they have found, now they are finding elaborate sentences of deep profound meaning. The Bible seems to be a Book that is 3 dimensional, like a powerful and elaborate 3D Chess set. Not only that, it is a Book that is 4 dimensional through time also. Some speculate that it has all the history of time written within it.

No other Book on the face of the Earth that is like it. It is GOD's book. They are GOD's words. They are the words of life.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 6, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
Now back to UFOs/ET.

I brought up Russ Dizdar, because in the course of his work he has had experiences working with ET abductees also. If you listen to the Youtube posts eventually you will find the one where he talks about working with an individual(s) who claimed to be an Alien Abductee(s), and this person(s) had all the classic psychological problems associated with such an actual experience.

After working with them, and demonstrating through the word of GOD what this person was experiencing and then leading them to Jesus Christ, almost always these people had been dabbling in the occult or had opened some other evil door due to immoral behavior, then their abduction experiences would stop, never to occur again.

If the person still struggled in their new spiritual life, not completely stopping the immoral behavior that would open the doors to this evil, and they continued to have "visitations," rather than seeing ETs as they had before, they were now seeing as how these entities truly actually are -- demonic creatures. They no longer could show up masquerading as benevolent ETs.


http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-14.htm
Barnes Notes on the Bible:
And no marvel - And it is not wonderful, 2 Corinthians 11:15. Since Satan himself is capable of appearing to be an angel of light, it is not to be deemed strange that those who are in his service also should resemble him.

Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


I found this to be very interesting. Perhaps ET is truly as The Good Book suggests they are, Nephilim, or Fallen Angels, or Demons. Perhaps they are not Extraterrestrial after all, but instead Intraterrestrial. Perhaps they are dark and sinister spiritual entities that masquerade as benevolent ET (although they do not act benevolently) that exist on a spiritual plane or dimension. And these entities lie about who they truly are.

Russ Dizdar's experience seems to suggest that this is the truth of the matter.



http://www.alienresistance.org/
http://www.freestickers.net/



bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 7, 2010 - 12:18am PT
Article implying that my 2008 UFO footage taken on a camping trip inspired the August 2010 cover art for Vancouvers Georgia Straight August 2010 issue

http://www.unexplainable.net/UFO-Alien/Video-Timeline-shows-UFO-coverage-beat-local-headlines-says-Examiner.shtml

the Vancouver photographer (me) whose 2008 nightvision UFO video is the most likely candidate for the original footage upon which the Straight cover art was modelled. By August 24th both the Vancouver Sun and CFOX radio's Jeff O'Neil Show had teamed up to provide joint coverage of local UFO sightings with reporting that included photographs taken by witnesses. “How many times in your life have you seen a Georgia Straight whose cover art was all about UFO contact?”, Mr. Kelly enquired.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2010 - 09:15am PT
bmacd,

Pretty cool.

Is your footage posted anywhere to see it all? I know we have seen images clipped from it.





Here is a really good article to help explain the UFO/ET phenom and what is happening and what it all means from a Christian point of view:

Aliens Among Us
By Andy Butcher Reprinted here by permission of Charisma Magazine
http://www.alienstranger.com/charismaapril2001.htm
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 7, 2010 - 11:11am PT
I wonder if the ETs like to climb.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 7, 2010 - 11:25am PT
that article is too long, klimmer. i guess christians just havta play catch-up with the aliens. jesus didn't quite clue you in on it. one thing for sure, you won't have a shortage of imaginative explanations to work whatever turns up into the system of keeping people in the pews on sunday.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 7, 2010 - 11:36am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
GC,

By posting that Certified Insane tag graphic (and only that) . . .

Do you really want to admit that you are certified insane in a public forum?

That's kind of embarrassing isn't it?

On the bright-side, there is professional help available. Half the battle is admitting it. So you are nearly there. Seek some help now would be my advice.

GOD's speed. I'll be praying for you.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 7, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
um, klimsie, i think he meant you. probably me too. give up religion and you won't be wasting your time on prayers. if granite goes to church, he may be praying for you too, and god will really get confused.

if you were a catholic, you'd know that the way around it would be to pray to the proper patron saint. thanks to my italian heritage, i happen to have the lifelong patronage of st. anthony of padua, the patron saint of lost things. broken clocks get lucky twice a day.

klim, the best way to counter such inane criticism is to focus on the lack of talent. it takes some skill to post really witty art on ST. granite here is probably a young guy, just starting out with it. most of the guys who concoct art on here are pretty clumsy. even the masters like wade icey have a rather checkered performance. wade bats around .400, good in baseball, dunno about art. the truly inept, like HFCS, repeat themselves oafishly. granite, we could probably surmise, suffers from lack of imagination in more than one department, but, as i say, he's young and there is hope. it is the obama era, after all.

maybe it's misspelled? "certified inane"?

:-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 7, 2010 - 01:03pm PT
Tony,

I'm pretty sure he meant himself ;-)

And now that the Vatican/Catholic Church has pretty much come out and said "it is OK to believe in Aliens," are they gonna come out with the patron saint of ET? Who could that be? Who even wants that title? I wouldn't if I were a Saint (working on it, but I got a long, long way to go).

My advice is do not trust ET. Do not believe in ET. Believe rather in GOD and Jesus. We already got ETs number. Take off the masquerade. Lucifer and his minions are indeed tricky, but we know who they really are. It is the 21st Century Fallen Angel/Nephilim/Demon version 2.0 .

that article is too long, klimmer. i guess christians just havta play catch-up with the aliens. jesus didn't quite clue you in on it. one thing for sure, you won't have a shortage of imaginative explanations to work whatever turns up into the system of keeping people in the pews on sunday.


Jesus did clue us in on it. In fact very clearly. He said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of Man." You have to know your Bible. You have to know what was going on just before the flood. Read Genesis. Read the Book of Enoch. Then you will know.

Like I said, it is the 21st Century Fallen Angel/Nephilim/Demon version 2.0 .
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 7, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
i read a pronouncement on off-earth life by the catholic church once, it may actually have been when i was a practicing catholic, before 1980 or so. they do like to cover their behinds and they're quite practiced at it.

as i recall, it went kinda like this: god may well have created intelligent life on other planets and we may some day have contact with it. in such a case, these beings may have 1) developed free from original sin, not having made adam and eve's mistake, in which case they will be saved creatures as we all hope to be some day, 2) failed the test, in which case we can introduce them to salvation through jesus.

the catholic church even covers its sacred behind in the evolution department. it's okay to believe in evolution, it's okay to believe in short-form creationism, it's okay to believe in some hybrid like yours, klim. whatever the deal is, they've got you covered!

the bible is full of little hints which moderns can spindoctor as they wish. so is every other shard of ancient literature. bottom line, old son, no plain speaking. know why? they really had no idea about what was ahead. it's basically flat earth mythology. there's a new mythology going on now. don't put the new wine in the old wineskins--they break. where did i hear that?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 01:13am PT





Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 8, 2010 - 01:26am PT
But do the aliens like waffles, and what do they prefer on top of them? Enquiring minds wish to know.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 01:27am PT
Didn't god make everything in the universe? So is it rational to say that all ETs are evil? Surely there are other god-worshiping beings out there, with all the inhabitable planets there are.



Yes, I would agree, he did make everything. And if we accept what the Good Book says, that GOD, The Trinity is without beginning and without end.

And as according to science has discovered, the Universe is 14+ Billion years old. There is a passage in the Bible that states that the "Heavenly Host" witnessed creation, so we are talking about "Heavenly Host" that are at least as old as the Universe, 14+ Billion years old. So, they have been here since the beginning of time, as defined by the Big Bang.

If you define ET to mean Extraterrestrial, meaning off-Earth, and not just little green men from another Star then we have all the following . . .

So what is the Hierarchy According to the Good Book? (As I understand it and as others have explained it):

GOD, "The Trinity": The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost

The Heavenly Host: the Holy Angels "aka Watchers", and other Heavenly Creatures (many different types are described that guard Heaven and worship GOD continuously as The Good Book says)

Fallen Angels: 33% turned against GOD and left with Lucifer, and now have "Power of the Air" surrounding Earth and near Earth. They have left their first abode and have turned from GOD and have come to Earth. No chance of Salvation from what I understand.

Nephilim: the off-spring between Fallen Angels and Earthly Women. Very powerful. Very intelligent. But also the worst of both; the worst of Fallen Angels and the worst of sinful Man. These were living beings that were never meant to be. GOD wiped almost all of them out with the flood. After the flood he had the nation of Isreal continue to eradicate them. The Nephilim have no chance of Salvation from what I understand, and when they die, they become disembodied demon spirits.


Demons: the disembodied demon spirits of Nephilim.


ETs: seems that the Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons have a new plan. Like Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be." Seems we now have Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons version 2.0, the last days. Seems they have a new agenda, but one revealed very accurately and prophetically in The Good Book. Seems the abductions are a way to have off-spring or hybrids again with man, but under the facade of ETs from a separate star system outside our own. Perhaps modern man is more willing to accept that story, that lie, rather than say who they really are.



The thing to remember is this:

The Heavenly Host from GOD, Holy Angels, Messengers, The Holy Watchers will interact with man for very specific purposes and reasons. They come in the name of GOD and they identify themselves as such. They will not accept to be worshipped. They identify the true GOD and The Lord and Savior, The Messiah, Jesus Christ. They come in peace. They do not ever come to harm or to trick or to fool. They always tell the ones they are communicating with not to be afraid. And those people visited don't ever feel dread, or evil, or anything but a Holy Peace and presence from these Heavenly Messengers. Also the message they come with will not ever contradict the message that the Bible has already spoken. Heavenly Host from GOD will always abide by the 2 Great Commandements from GOD. Always. Christians are to try the spirits to see whether they are of GOD. We are told to do this, since Lucifer can pretend to be who he is not. Likewise so can his minions.


Heavenly Host that are no longer of GOD or from GOD, or that have fallen away (Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons/Hybrid ET creatures etc.) will do the exact opposite of all the above. They are the ultimate in evil and do indeed have an dark and sinister agenda. These entities will not abide by the 2 Great Commandments of GOD. With every human they can convince to fall away from GOD and keep from coming to GOD, or from knowing GOD, I think they are trying to strike back at GOD and trying to punish GOD. I'm sure it does hurt him, he even says so in his Book that it hurts him. He doesn't want to see anyone lost. But some people truly hate GOD just as these Fallen away ET entities that have left GOD do.

Didn't god make everything in the universe? So is it rational to say that all ETs are evil? Surely there are other god-worshiping beings out there, with all the inhabitable planets there are.


So to answer. He did make everything. Are all ETs evil? Depends on how you define ETs. Those that are still with GOD and on GOD's side, no they wouldn't be evil. They are ET and they are not evil. There definitely are other GOD worshipping beings out there that he created. The Good Book says so. Heaven is filled with them. Where is Heaven? We don't know. Any believer who believes in GOD and his word has to come to the conclusion that yes, there is much more out there. Much more. The Good Book mentions that there are profound mysteries to be known and that we don't even really have but a glimmer of a peek about all that there is to know. We would probably be absolutely blown away to know all the mysteries and to know all that is out there. Our minds probably can't handle it, at least not right now.

You have to try the spirits to see whether they are of GOD. When asked about Jesus, who do they say Jesus is? They better get this right and worship Jesus, or they aren't who they say they are (see link below). All ET creation knows who Jesus is, except for Man on Earth who may not know him. That is why those who call on the name of Jesus can make the abductions stop. Those who come to GOD, the abductions will stop all together. If ET returns to those who have a relationship with GOD but perhaps haven't given themselves completely to GOD yet, ET doesn't show up as ET anymore, but as a demon, their true identity.
http://www.humblefishmall.com/trythespirits.html

David Flynn, a very devout Christian, and he is very knowledgeable regarding the Bible. He has a great deal to say regarding Mars, and what possibly happened on Mars. The Bible does seem to indicate something happened with another planet being destroyed, perhaps forming the Asteroid Belt, and pummeling Mars. Even in science that is a plausible theory altough most accept the theory that the Asteroid Belt is from a failed accretion process because of the gravity field from Jupiter stops it. There does seem to be an indication in The Good Book that Mars may have been an abode of The Sons of GOD, Angels, a very long, long time ago. Check out David Flynn's website and his book, Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars. Very interesting.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Oct 8, 2010 - 01:59am PT
So once again, true Christians can not be members of Secret Societies that require Secret Oaths or Oaths of any kind.


Hi Klimmer, I would suggest that Christian baptism, as it is described in I Peter 3:21, constitutes an oath or pledge...."the pledge of a just conscience toward God."

New Testament writings basically described two
sacraments: the sacrament of baptism and the sacrament of communion, also known as the Eucharist, or the Lord' s Supper. The meaning of sacrament? The English is simply a transliteration of the Latin word "sacramentum" which means an oath. That is the intrinsic meaning of a sacrament. It translates as an oath, an obligation, a vow. Legally speaking it means a pledge.
Papillon Rendre

climber
Oct 8, 2010 - 02:28am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 02:28am PT
But do the aliens like waffles, and what do they prefer on top of them? Enquiring minds wish to know.

MH, strawberries and whipped cream of course!

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 02:31am PT
LOL. Papillon beat me to it, but only by a few seconds. Look at the times of our posts. And she is right. They prefer NUTS (like Klimmer).

Edit: I stand corrected, Papillion! :-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 03:16am PT
stzzo,

Read The Book of John in the Bible. Who is Jesus according to the Good Book?

Emmanuel, GOD with us. He came down and took on the form of a physical man to dwell among us and teach us his ways, and then he died on the cross to pay the price for our sins. He took our place. We deserved to hang on the cross, he didn't. He was blameless and without sin. He paid the price. He purchased our redemption with his Blood. That is how much he loves us.

All creation knows who Jesus is. He has always been. He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the End. He is one with GOD our Creator.

The only ones who do not know who Jesus Christ is, are fallible and imperfect and physical Mankind. That is why we (believers and now Sons of GOD) have the Great Commission to go and tell the World, to let them know.

ETs already know all of this. They are incredibly smart. They are not dumb. But they are deceptive like their master. Lucifer knows the Word of GOD very well, and tries to manipulate it and change its true meaning to his advantage. Remember, he fell from Heaven. He once guarded the Throne of GOD, and then went rogue. See what he did in the Garden with Eve and with Jesus in the Wilderness for 40 days. Read and see how he quoted scripture out of context and tried to lie and deceive using the Word of GOD. He fooled Eve, but he wasn't about to fool Jesus even as a human being, as a Man.

The Word is Jesus Christ . . .

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."

John.1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[19] And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
[20] And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
[21] And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
[22] Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
[23] He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
[24] And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
[25] And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
[26] John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
[27] He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
[28] These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
[29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
[30] This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[31] And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
[32] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
[33] And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
[34] And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
[35] Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
[36] And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!



Jesus is GOD, he is one with the Father. The Trinity: The Father, The Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Ghost. GOD.

The Good Book is very clear on this, through the OT and the NT.






Good night all.


I think I'll have waffles in the morning, with strawberries and wipecream, and maple syrup. Yum. Love that stuff.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 03:34am PT






1800!
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:05am PT
God is an extraterrestrial

Tom Cochrane is right, there is a ton of disinformation out there
none of what we read or write on this subject can be verified
its likely nothing much will change, regarding what we know, in our lifetimes

speculation is futile, but can also be fun
UFO's are real, that much I do know

Somebody is right and somebody is wrong
the question is who ...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 8, 2010 - 09:31am PT
put yourself in the aliens' shoes. climb into the starship enterprise, dare to go where no alien as gone before.

so here's this pretty little planet, third rock from a yellow dwarf, got peeps pretty much at each other's throats all the time. give 'em a few eons, maybe they'll get somewhere. interesting artists--beethoven, chuck berry--some earthlings are way ahead of others. better watch over 'em, maybe decommission their nukes when it looks like things'll get outa hand. don't want a few to ruin it for everyone. won't interfere in their wars, though. natural selection, evolution and all that--it's how we got here.

so then the aliens start looking at earth religions, on their plasmoscreens in the moon bunker. sheesh--better not get too close to some of these earthlings, they're gonna try to save us.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 09:40am PT
stzzo,


If ETs are actually Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons/not-allowed hybrid beings of Angel and Man, then they would know. They are being deceptive. (Yes, I understand you probably disagree because it is all fairy tales right?)

And if they are not any of those (all evidence from abductees indicate that they really are though), then because all life forms have their origin from GOD, he is the Creator, and because they are light-years ahead of us in technology and knowlwdge then I would fathom to guess then they also know about GOD.

But like I said, they do know. We know who they really are. They are not abidding by the Universal Laws of GOD, The 2 Great Commandments. You can not be a advanced race or an intellectual being and not know these Universal Laws.

Now what kind of beings could invade your privacy, rape you, take sperm from a Man or human eggs from a Woman, give out an exceeding sense of evil, dread, and wickedness to their victums, claim Jesus was just a special Man and not GOD? Now who would do such a thing? Let me think . . . hhhhhhhmmmmmmmm . . . not sure . . . almost got it . . . hhhhhhhhmmmmmm . . . getting there . . . hhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm . . .


(In your best Church Lady voice)


Satan? Lucifer? The Evil One? The Angel of Darkness? and his minions. Bingo.
Knave

climber
Oct 8, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
Christianity has never ever appealed to me. But I have seen 2 UFO's in my travels, my gut says they were military but I have no Fooking idea. I scoured the internet and even bought some books on the subject for a time after that encounter and concluded that there are too many "experts" in contrast. Typical of a subject that we have very little hard evidence of or if we do it is being beautifully suppressed. The Disclosure Project V.S the Deception Project V.S. ? Some think they are here to save us and some think they are here to harm us. And some, my catagory, think that if they are indeed here they are scratching their big bulbous heads saying what a bunch of a-holes.

As for ET's being evil for Probing and such, Perhaps we are crude enough by their standards to be treated like chattel, fodder or lab rats? Our own Christain Govt. has no trouble doing it why should the ETs.

Perhaps I am deluded by Satan's Masterful Deception, in which case I apologise for at the time it seemed to me like the "Good Book" was written and rewritten again by bastards who were trying to control the will of men. A common thread: They who apart from us will come save us for they are superior; aliens, jesus. allah etc...

I believe that perhaps a "God" exists and if She does She is all about Love and not the political and theological will of mankind and all beings in the universe even the poor bastard children of Nephilm must have an attribute or two for we all sprang from the same well after all.

Perhaps the "secret govt" sees that the grasp of religion is loosing it's strength so this new ET construct is being ushered in as a new control tool?

Time will tell when science can be separated from fantasy, but if it turns out that the govt. has been hidding free clean energy on purpose I say we storm the gates!

Signed, Larry the Lurker

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 8, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
yon knave speaketh well.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
knave,

You do bring up many good questions and points. I would like to respond, but don't have much time to right now. I'll get back when I can.

But it is well known in UFO-ology, and there is testimonial evidence and other evidence that Eisenhower had a secret meeting with Aliens in CA, in the Mojave desert on a Military base, and a backroom deal was made with ET. Bottom line, not good:

Eisenhower's 1954 Meeting with aliens
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/exopolitica/esp_exopolitics_Q.htm

Eisenhower's Meeting with Aliens
http://www.exopolitics.org/Study-paper-8.htm



Another point I would like to make. Our government is Christian in name only. Many of our founding fathers were Masons, like George Washington. The architect who designed Washington DC was Mason. There is an enormous amount of Mason symbology throughout the city of Washington DC, and throughout the actual design of the city. Lots of resources on all of this. It is mind blowing when you look into it and you finally know. The Masons and the Masonic Temple are Luciferian.

http://www.masonicalert.com/


That is why the Book -- Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, by Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara is such an important read. Our space program was developed by the Nazi's through project "Paperclip." Through the reunification of Germany, many papers have been made public, and the Nazi's, the SS, it has come out were heavy into the Occult = Luciferian. And many who established NASA, have had deep ties into the Masonic Temple, the Masons. Once again, The Masonic Temple and the Masons are luciferian.

http://www.darkmission.net/what_if.htm


I'll get back to all of this later.
WBraun

climber
Oct 8, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
Eisenhower had a secret meeting with Aliens in CA, in the Mojave desert on a Military base, and a backroom deal was made with ET.

"..... and a backroom deal was made.."

LOL
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 8, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
stzz, if you read through this lore you'll find reports of several species of aliens. some military in-the-know type (bill cooper?) made the statement that the nicest-seeming ones turn out to be the least trustworthy.

so, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that this is a true picture. translating it to theological terms, they're good, they're bad, they're ugly, they're beautiful, they're friendly, they're warlike. sound familiar? intelligent, evolved creatures like us. probably got their own version of god, atheism, religion, science. if they genuflect before jesus, klim will trust them.

me--i kinda don't care whether they exist or not. slippery little bastards, useless to us. nice of them to decommission the nukes once in awhile, both here and in russia. keep up the good work, if indeed it's your work, but stay out of our hair in the meantime, k?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
Stzzo,

I'm on lunch I can respond now.

The Good ETs: Holy Angels, Heavenly Hosts etc. etc. But they stay out of the affairs of mankind for the most part. If they do interfere it is only for specific reasons as directed by GOD. They never do their own agenda. Never. They are sent, and they are messengers. They do not need spaceships. They just appear and communicate the message they need to communicate, and they then as quickly dissapear. They are benevolent and they appear as they truly are, wonderful beings of GOD (Angels), and they get to the point, they tell you exactly who they are and why they are there, and not to worship them, they are fellow Brothers and Sisters and Sons of GOD, like the people they are communicating with. They tell the ones they are communicating with not to be afraid. They worship GOD and Jesus Christ. Their message always abides by the Word of GOD and never contradicts the Word of GOD.


The Bad ETs: They do everything just the opposite of the above. They do come in Spaceships. Real entities from GOD don't need that. If they pretend to come in peace and are fair to look upon, then they are probably "The Nordics." But their message is Anti-Christ. Yes, they come with peaceful messages, disarm our Nukes, and talk about love and peace, but their message is contradictory to the Real Angels from GOD. Also there have been abduction experiences where the ugly and evil Greys are doing the raping, but in the background Nordic ETs are watching and observing. People who have been abducted have testified to this happening. Once again, they are not who they say they are.

Sit a good looking, peaceful Nordic ET down and interview them, "test the spirits" and I'm willing to bet they would fail the test misserably.

GOD's Heavenly Host, ETs from GOD don't do any of these things. It is like night vs. day. That is how you tell.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Lee Bow

Trad climber
wet island
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
Wow, this thread is so crazy I just LOVE it!!!

Not that I have a valid opinion or anything, but if you actually READ the bible's version of creation they some how "lucked" into getting the sequence of events right.

The first thing coming off an explosion is the fastest moving object (duh)..

Let there be light...

In terms of evolution we're the new kids on the block...

Now before eveyone jumps all over me for promoting my religous beliefs (I'M NOT) I have absolutely no problem with passing aliens or time travellers told us. But random fluke? Somebody with the math skills can work out the base likelyhood, but when you take into account human ego it seems even Less likely.

Heck, I KNOW God made ME first and created time and the rest of you solely for my personal entertainment...

Tee Hee
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
If aliens are demonic, does this mean that this picture is some kind of HOAX? It looks so authentic.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
Are we wrong to think of aliens as cute little creatures?

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:38pm PT
If Klimmer is correct that aliens are evil and demonic and have a "backroom" deal with the government, he should watch out how much he badmouths them.

If they are as bad and scary as he says, they will come after him!

One morning he will wake up and see this:





















Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 8, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
Ok, I think I understand.

It sounds as if you're saying that all ETs who come in spaceships are bad.

So, there are no other physical beings in the universe who - like us - cannot currently travel in space without spacecraft, but who also worship god and are good?

Or, there are such beings, but they never have visited and made their presence known on Earth, and never will?

i think i am getting this whole thing now....

spaceships=BAD

angels = GOOD

got it

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 8, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
Klimmer,

Are some sources vulnerable to manipulation for the purpose of deceiving you?

Once you think, reason, speculate and gather evidence about this maybe you can move on to the next step which could be a conclusion. And I use the word “could” for a reason.

There are basic insights from cognitive psychology, decision analysis, and the scientific method’

You are caught up in misinformation and deception. Have you been talking to Pat Robertson?

One question I have to ask is; why are you spending so much time: reading, writing and commenting on this subject with just a small audience. Seems to me you have less than a half a dozen people that might agree with you on this subject. Does it not make sense that a larger audience would be better to get your message out?

Quit your job, create your own church and then find your followers, get on as many conservative Christian radios and get your message out. By no time you will have book deals, movie rights and possibility a chance to be on ‘America's got talent” show. Maybe get a chance be in the top 10.

Just a thought and Halloween is coming up please restrain/control your thoughts if small, little, green, blue, orange, gray aliens [UFO not the other] shows up at your door. Ask them if they know how/could to read your mind. Think of the word candy, do not say it, let them respond, If they say the word candy then you have some proof or evidence.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 8, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
I wonder if there are any wolves on the ark? And do the beings on it get vaccinated, or not? What do they think about Paris Hilton?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
"I wonder if there are any wolves on the ark?"

Why do you think so many species went extinct? The wolves had to eat.
Douglas Rhiner

Mountain climber
Tahoe City/Talmont , CA
Oct 8, 2010 - 06:07pm PT
If Klimmer is correct that aliens are evil and demonic and have a "backroom" deal with the government, he should watch out how much he badmouths them.

And if Kilmmer is correct that aliens are evil that means Jeff/Fattrad is not of this earth!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
Is it possible that these delusions are
caused by extreme sleep deprivation?

How well can he sleep at night, thinking
the evil aliens are coming for him?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 8, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
GC,

I sleep pretty well actually. I have peace in my heart.

Anyone here on ST can have that to. It is for all of us. It is free from Jesus.

That is a wonderful benefit for returning back to GOD, and asking forgiveness through the grace and blood of Jesus Christ, and asking the Lord Jesus Christ back into my heart.

He protects all believers. We have power over Lucifer and his minions through the Name and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Read the accounts of abductions and what happened when they called on the name of Jesus. The abduction stopped. Those evil entities fled away. Those who turned to GOD's loving salvation and grace and asked Jesus Christ back into their lives, the abductions stopped altogether, never to return.

He even protects and will rescue non-believers who call out his name in moments of desperation when then have no one else to turn to.


Like the saying goes: "There are no Athiests in Fox-holes."
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 8, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
I'm nominating Klimmer & Rox for the 2010 "Trollmasters" award. There is no way they can truly believe half the stuff posted here, so therefore it was/is/continues to be the epic troll of the year.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 8, 2010 - 07:39pm PT
BREAKING NEWS

UFOS and extraterrestrials linked to Canadian counter-intelligence plot with goal of world domination.
Illuminati and Majestic-12 covert op for infiltration of American political
and military industrial complex by high ranking Saskatchewan Potash miners.

END NEWS BULLITTEN
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 8, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
Video of Klimmer on a duck hunt?

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 11, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
Klimmer,

Need to take some ACH while eating or drinking.

http://www2.parc.com/istl/projects/ach/ach.html

Do not think you will like this one but you will need it: Don’t be scared you can do it. Yes it is one of those/them.

Go to https://www.cia.gov/index.html hit library you will see Center for the Study of Intelligence: You should see CSI publications hit that, now you will see Books and Monographs, hit that: Download 2010 PDF on “Thinking and Writing: Cognitive Science and Intelligence Analysis” and same page go to 1999 and download PDF “Psychology of Intelligence Analysis” read Chapter 8 summarizes or tells you the steps that you will be doing for ACH. Read Chapter 14 as well.

Let one of your 5th graders help you on figuring it out, better yet give them this as a class project.

No conspiracy on technologies for solving energy. EU has being doing it for years. There is a Dutch company has thousands and thousands of publications on what is and being done from private, academia and government institutions in helping customers advance science and health by providing world-class information and innovative tools that help them make critical decisions, enhance productivity and improve outcomes.
Subscription is high S$$$$ but allows you to buy one paper on a given subject for knowledge for $.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 11, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
If this thread is still alive in two months, will klimmer be singing "Ark, the herald nephilim sing"?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 11, 2010 - 08:49pm PT
We'll have to add holly and jingle bells to the "its a conspiracy!" picture.



Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 11, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
Klimmer repeats the age old LIE that "there are no atheists in foxholes"

The basis for this LIE is to have people believe that when atheists are
put in life and death struggles, well, they just turn to GOD anyway.

Really? NO


Atheists in Foxholes, in Cockpits, and on Ships

MAAF maintains a roster of Atheists in Foxholes, just in case there are any rumors that we don't exist. The next time you hear someone repeat that old myth, just send them here to see how atheists have served honorably in combat - always have, always will.


The list of Atheists in Foxholes is over 200, starting with the most-recently submitted.

Army Sergeant David Lindberg
Dates of service: 2001-2005
Decorations: Expert Field Medical Badge (EFMB) Combat Medical Badge (CMB) and several other campaign and commendation awards and medals.
Tours of duty, with dates: OIF 1 March 2003 - April 2004
Specialty: Medic

I arrived at my atheism through skepticism and scientific inquiry. My atheism and anti-theism was reinforced by hearing the cries, in English and Arabic, for mercy or help from "god" when a person was hurt and or dying. The help never appeared to come. Seeing humans die brutally, slowly, or without Hollywood style drama is a life, or rather, death-affirming experience. My family and I and thousands of others have paid dearly. I continue to "fight" due to my 50% disability from PTSD.

Army Private First Class Andrew Lowe
Dates of service: Nov 2006 - current
Decorations: Army Service Ribbon, National Def Service Medal, Global war on Terrorism Medal, Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Good Conduct Medal, Overseas Service Medal, Army Commendation Medal, Op New Dawn Medal, and OIF Medal
Tours of duty, with dates: Qatar (Jul 07 - Oct 08), Iraq(Mar 10 - Mar 11)
Specialty: 15P aviation operation specialist
Air Force Chief Master Sergeant Mike Cundiff
Dates of service: May 1972-July 2002
Decorations: Defense Meritorious Service Medal; Air Force Meritorious Service Medal (3 awards); Air Force Commendation Medal (7 awards); Air Force Achievement Medal (4 awards); Outstanding Airman of the Year Ribbon
Specialty: Public Affairs

Additional comments: During the first 10 years of my military career I was indifferent to religion, practicing none. I later voluntarily became a Roman Catholic, and then later (again voluntarily) became a Unitarian Humanist. Throughout my 30-year active duty career I was never hassled about religion. Things have changed. In both military and civilian life the evangelical religious virus has infected everything. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion are equally important to a just society. I’m a member/supporter of the MAAF, the American Humanist Association, the Freedom From Religion Foundation, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation in an effort to help inoculate society from the evangelical virus. I look forward to the day when there’s no longer a need to support these organizations.

Army Captain Kattarina Simons
Dates of service: February 2009-present
Tours of duty, with dates: Operation Iraqi Freedom, 2010

Navy Petty Officer First Class Eric M. Hodge
Dates of service: August 13th, 1998 to present
Decorations: Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal, Good Conduct Medal (3 awards), Flag Letter of Commendation
Tours of duty, with dates: Standing Naval Forces Atlantic USS
Moosbrugger (NATO Operation), March - September 2000; Mediterranean Cruise USS Mahan, June - December 2002; Joint Warrior (NATO Operation) USS Laboon, Current
Specialty: Sonar Technician

Navy Commander James Ridgway
Dates of service: July 1991 - present
Decorations: Navy Achievement, Navy Commendation (2), Joint Service Achievement, Volunteer Service
Specialty: Aviator/FTS (Full Time Support for Reserve)

Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Mark Matson
Dates of service: 1989-present
Decorations: Meritorious Service Medal, Joint Commendation Medal, AF Commendation Medal, Achievement Medal
Tours of duty, with dates:89-93 Norton AFB, CA; 93-95 Osan AB, ROK; 95-98 Aviano AB, It; 98-00 Hickam AFB, HI; 00-02 NATO Programming Center Glons BE; 02-04 McConnell AFB, KS; 04-06 Nellis AFB, NV; 06-07 Maxwell AFB, AL; 07-present Pentagon Wash DC
Specialty: Civil Engineer

Grew up a Lutheran, went to Sunday School and Church through college. Started to become a real doubter though when I started watching Carl Sagan in COSMOS as a kid. Didn't really give it all much thought until I had my own children. I've always just kind of known that the many, varied stories of gods were just that, but it didn't bother me that others weren't able to see the same thing. Lately my lack of belief has become more important to me as I realize the kind of societal and cultural brain washing that my kids are exposed to. It is hard to explain to them why daddy does not believe that "God made us", "that's what everybody else says is true". Therefore, I am trying to learn as much as possible about the arguments for and against religion so I am ready to discuss it when they are old enough to ask real questions.

Air Force Tech Sergeant Sherry Burt
Dates of service: Nov 98-present
Specialty: Bandsman, USAF Band of the Golden West, Travis AFB

My career field is made up of musicians who are generally liberal-minded or at least fairly tolerant. Still, nearly everyone is Christian and many are outspoken church-goers. I freely express my views as a non-theist in hopes that folks will come to accept atheism/agnosticm. At the very least, I hope to avoid the usual asumptions about my beliefs. However, when I play a concert for an audience, the people in attendance nearly always assume Christian beliefs and shower me with "God Bless Yous" and whatnot. There is nothing I can do about this, and it is tolerable considering the general goodwill with which it is given. Still, it irks me somewhat, and I like to imagine a future where the "A" word is not feared and mistrusted.

Navy Petty Officer 3rd Class Paul Averi
Dates of service: November 2007- present
Decorations: Afghan campgain medal, NATO medal
Tours of duty, with dates: May-2009-November 2009
Specialty: Corpsman

Air Force Tech Sergeant Dale Coonfield
Dates of Service: 1992-current
Decorations: Joint Service Commendation Medal, Air Force Commendation Medal, Achievement Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Korean Defense Service Medal, Humanitarian Service Medal AF Overseas Ribbon
Tours of duty, with dates: Little Rock AFB AR 92-96, GITMO Cuba, Kwang Ju AB South Korea 97-98, Altus AFB Ok 98-2003, Al Jabar Kuwait, USSTRATCOM NE 03-05, Barksdale AFB LA 05-08, Osan AB South Korea 08-09, Barksdale AFB LA 09-Current
Specialty: Intel Analyst

I have found that for the most part my lack of religion is pretty much a non-issue. When prayer is led at functions I just look ahead and remain quiet. I have no problems with prayer at functions, I just don't participate. I don't look down on people who pray, it's what they do to feel good and who am I to say it's right or wrong. I am surprised at the amount of people in the Air Force who are unsure of religion and the existence of a higher power.

Navy Petty Officer Second Class Daniel Rumery
Dates of service: 1984-1990
Specialty: PBX Telephone, 1MC announcing system ,all monitoring circuits for diesel generators and other shipboard systems.

Army Specialist David Wulf
Dates of Service:Oct, 2004/Oct, 2010
Decorations: Army Commendation Medal, Army Good Conduct Medal, Army Achievement Medal, Iraq Campaign Medal, Global War On Terrorism Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon
Tour of Duty: Operation Iraqi Freedom-May, 2007 to June, 2008
Specialty: 52C-Utilities Equipment Repairer

WV Army National Guard Sergeant Gary Rice II
Dates of service:12/12/1995-Present
Decorations:CAB, ARCOM, AAM
Tours of duty, with dates: OIF2003-2004, 2009-present
Specialty: Military Police

There are 4 atheists in my unit and we are having an issue with our chaplain and command praying prior to everything, from meetings to movement. He and everyone else in the command just make us uncomfortable every time we do something.

Air Force Staff Sergeant Brandon Crilley
Dates of service:17 June, 2003
Tours of duty, with dates: MacDill AFB May 2004 to Present
Specialty: Communications and Navigation Systems engineer on KC-135 Stratotanker Aircraft

Every day I do hear the inanities that people put forth about our country and specifically our military being founded on Christian ideals. This is not only wrong, but specifically singles out everyone who is not "Christian" and sometimes can make us feel like we should not be a part of the defense of our own freedoms. In spite of this, I fight for my country simply for the fact that I can be a part of organizations like this one and support what I believe in (or not believe in).

Army Specialist Brandon Figueroa
Dates of service: April 12th, 2005 - Present
Decorations: Bronze Star w/ Valor, Purple Heart, Army Good Conduct Medal, Afghanistan Campaign Medal w/ Service Star, Army Commendation Medal, Army Achievement Medal, Overseas Service Ribbon, Combat Infantryman's Badge, NATO International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) Medal, Army Service Ribbon, Global War On Terrorism Medal
Tours of duty, with dates: Operation Enduring Freedom - Afghanistan 2008-2009. Kabul, Nuristan, Kapisa, Kandahar, Logar, Bagram, Darulamon, Jalalabad
Specialty: 11Bravo - Combat Infantryman (MK-19 - 40mm Grenade Machine Gunner)

Air Force 2LT Kyle Sanders
Dates of service: August 2004-Present
Tours of duty, with dates: US Air Force Academy CO, Vance AFB OK, Corpus Christi NAS TX
Specialty: Student Pilot

Marine Corps Lance Corporal Pierce Presley
Dates of service: 1/28/1991-1/27/1996
Decorations: National Defense Service Medal 1991, Good Conduct Medal 1994
Tours of duty, with dates: Maintenance Platoon, Landing Support Equipment Company, 1st Landing Support Battalion, 1st Force Service Support Group, I Marine Expeditionary Force (Camp Del Mar on Camp Pendleton, Calif.) Sept. 1991-Jan. 1996
Specialty: MOS 1341 Engineer Equipment Mechanic
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 11, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
interesting post, norton. keep it up and you'll convert me to atheism. or perhaps anti-theism, as you put it.

i do feel for klimmer. i don't know where he's at in life, but i think he's trying to reconcile a lot of basically traditional belief with disturbing things he's gotten onto recently, some of which i'll agree with him on, others where we'll be at variance. give him credit for sticking to his guns and maintaining some basic grace under fire, a lot more than you generally see on ST.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
Obviously we already understand everything:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1771&category=Environment

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
Yep, let's burn near infinite energy resources to go visit a faraway planet and doodle in their vegetation instead of just directly communicating with them.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
Kewl. I see two breasts and a partial nipple ring there....

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:41pm PT
if you don't read Linda's article, you are just spinning your wheels and annoying your neighbors

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:47pm PT
I don't believe Linda. Common sense strongly dictates to the contrary. It's back to the idea that illegible doodling in vegetation is the preferred method of communicating when an advanced alien species wants to communicate with the inhabitants of faraway planets. Oh and of course it would be multiple alien races given the variety of circumstances and patterns. Maybe it's sort of an alien Esperanto. Right, so much better than just showing up and chatting; makes complete sense.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:56pm PT






More aliens at work.









graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
The aliens even have a web site!

http://www.circlemakers.org/




graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:04pm PT
The Breakfast of Alien Champions!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
Make mine Diamond Shreddies.
Come to think of it, they sort of look like ... waffles ... don't they?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:10pm PT
Linda is a more reliable and meticulous researcher than most of the posters here

some people here are mentally incapable of observing an unknown without assigning something familiar to it and placing it in an irrelevant context

same people never go up on a climb without detailed beta and pre-placed pro stamped with the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval

and some posters are paid from public funds to generate disinformation; perhaps a team masquerading as granite??

if granite really is an independent individual; that is a pretty amazing pool of disinformation resources being displayed...hard to believe it's just one curmudgeon coming up with all that trash

Edit: what is the common sense resolution between quantum mechanics and relativity; or the common sense response to string theory? btw the dynamics for orbital rendezvous turn out to be directly opposite to common sense. in fact a lot of realities in space flight violate common sense

and if you study the subject a little bit, it is easy to identify crop circles generated by pranksters vs those that are challenging to understand
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
Tom, who is Linda, and what are her professional qualifications?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
and some posters are paid from public funds to generate disinformation; perhaps a team masquerading as granite??

granite=illuminatti It all makes perfect sense!
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:26pm PT
EEEEK!!! IT's GRANITECLIMBER!!! RUN!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
and some posters are paid from public funds to generate disinformation; perhaps a team masquerading as granite??

Tom, where's my money? It was part of the NASA contract.


if granite really is an independent individual; that is a pretty amazing pool of disinformation resources being displayed...hard to believe it's just one curmudgeon coming up with all that trash

I'll take that as a compliment, Tom. But that's just because you never discovered that one guy using google can find more in 5 minutes of spare time then your entire team working for five months.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
Tom, who is Linda, and what are her professional qualifications?

She is a self-described "investigative journalist" specializing in aliens and crop circles. Tom's link above was to her web site: http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1771&category=Environment

Read it, it's pretty poor compared to typical journalism standards.

Example: "He was doing private-I work until July 1997, when he walked into his first English crop formation "and life has changed considerably ever since," Gary told me in a July 11, 2007, phone interview. He explored Navaho reservations in Arizona, studied the dance traditions of West Africa, increased his knowledge of Tai Chi and other martial arts. He began to realize that he was becoming increasingly sensitive to the seen and unseen.

"On a couple of occasions, I’ve had intuitions about crop circles like you would have before a phone is going to ring. I’ve had intuitions where I’ve gotten up in the morning and driven down to Wiltshire from my home in Wales and been lucky enough to walk into a fresh formation."

Linda just accepts this without any skepticism.



#####



Linda Moulton Howe, born January 20, 1942, is an American investigative journalist and documentary producer-writer-director-editor who is currently based in Albuquerque, New Mexico.[1]
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Early life and education
* 2 Career
o 2.1 Film and TV background
* 3 Awards
* 4 Travels and books
* 5 Personal life
* 6 Film/TV Documentary
* 7 References
* 8 External links

[edit] Early life and education

Howe was born in Boise, Idaho. She entered the 1963 Miss Boise pageant for college scholarships and went on to win the 1963 Miss Idaho crown and scholarships, and participated in the Miss America Pageant that year in Atlantic City. Howe received her 1965 B.A. c#m laude in English Literature from the University of Colorado, Boulder. In 1966, Howe was awarded the Stanley Baubaire Scholarship for her Master's Degree work at Stanford University, Palo Alto, California. She received her Masters Degree in Communication from Stanford University in 1968, where she produced a documentary film for the Stanford Medical Center and her Master's Thesis, "A Picture Calculus," at the Stanford Linear Accelerator.
[edit] Career

Howe has devoted her documentary film, television, radio, writing and reporting career to productions concerning science, medicine and the environment. Ms. Howe has received local, national and international awards, including three regional Emmys, a national Emmy nomination and a Station Peabody award for medical programming. While Linda was Director of Special Projects at KMGH-TV, Channel 7, Denver, Colorado from 1978 to 1983, her documentaries included Poison in the Wind and A Sun Kissed Poison which compared smog pollution in Los Angeles and Denver; Fire In The Water about hydrogen as an alternative energy source to fossil fuels; A Radioactive Water about uranium contamination of public drinking water in a Denver suburb; and A Strange Harvest and Strange Harvests 1993, which explored animal mutilation mystery. Another film, A Prairie Dawn, focused on astronaut training in Denver. She has also produced documentaries in Ethiopia and Mexico for UNICEF about child survival efforts and for Turner Broadcasting in Atlanta about environmental challenges in the TV series Earthbeat.
Linda Moulton Howe receiving her 1981 Regional Emmy award for A Strange Harvest, a documentary she produced, wrote, directed, edited and reported as Director of Special Projects at KMGH-TV, CBS affiliate in Denver, Colorado.

In addition to television, Linda produces, reports and edits the award-winning science, environment and earth mysteries news website, Earthfiles.com. Linda also reports monthly science, environment and earth mysteries news for Premiere Radio Networks Coast to Coast AM with George Noory and weekly news updates for Dreamland Radio at Unknowncountry.com.

In 2005, she traveled to Amsterdam, Hawaii, and several other U. S. conferences to speak about her investigative journalism. She was interviewed for the Canadian award-winning documentary, Star Dreams, about crop circles.

In 2004, Linda was on-camera TV reporter for The History Channel’s UFO Files documentary investigation of an August 2004 cow death in Farnam, Nebraska. Linda also traveled to Florence and San Marino, Italy, to speak about her "earth mysteries" investigations. She also produced and reported Earthfiles segments for Comcast Cable broadcasts in San Francisco and Los Angeles.

In 2003, Linda traveled to England to report about the proliferation of crop formations and small, mysterious lights there and in other European countries. She also investigated aerial light phenomena in Brazil. In 2002, Linda traveled to Norway to join astronomers, physicists and engineers in the study of “thermal plasmas of unknown origin” in the Hessdalen valley (see Hessdalen light). In 2001, Linda traveled to Hong Kong and Laos to report for The Discovery Channel television series, Modern Mysteries of Asia.

A few of her other television productions have included The World of Chemistry for PBS; a two-hour special Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms in association with WATL-Fox, Atlanta. Linda was Supervising Producer and Original Concept Creator for UFO Report: Sightings financed by Paramount Studios and the Fox network in Los Angeles. Its first broadcast was in October 1991, which became the Sightings series on Fox.
[edit] Film and TV background

Howe reported news and produced the weekly live news program, Inquiry, at KNBC-TV, Los Angeles, 1968–1974; produced and wrote House Call with Timothy Johnson, M. D., WCVB-TV, Boston, 1974–1978; Director of Special Projects, KMGH-TV, Denver, 1978–1983; Owner Linda Moulton Howe Productions, 1983 to present; produced, wrote, directed and edited three documentaries for UNICEF, including UNICEF's 40th Anniversary in New York City, 1984, and New Hope in Child Survival in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, 1985; produced, wrote, directed and edited The Mole for World of Chemistry series, PBS, Washington, D. C., 1986; produced, wrote, directed and edited Information's Electronic Future in Denver, Colorado, 1987; Director of International Programming for Earthbeat, WTBS-TV, Atlanta, 1989–1990; produced, wrote, directed and edited Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms, and was Producer and Live Studio Host for a Roswell UFO Crash special audience event for WATL-TV, Atlanta, 1990; Supervising Producer and Original Concept Creator, UFO Report: Sightings, Paramount Studios/FOX Network, Los Angeles, 1991; produced, wrote, directed, edited Strange Harvests 1993, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 1994; segment productions TN, Discovery Channel, Learning Channel, History Channel, 1995-2007.
[edit] Awards

Linda was an honored medical producer in Boston’s WCVB Station Excellence Peabody Award. As Director of Special Projects at the KMGH-TV station in Denver, Colorado, she received the Aviation & Space Writers Association Award for Writing Excellence in Television, a Chicago Film Festival Golden Plaque for A Radioactive Water, Colorado’s Florence Sabin Award for “outstanding contribution to public health” and several dozen other local and regional awards, including Emmys. She also worked as Director of International Programming for Earthbeat, an environmental series broadcast on Turner’s WTBS Superstation, in Atlanta, Georgia.
[edit] Travels and books

Linda has traveled in Brazil, England, Norway, France, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Turkey, Ethiopia, Kenya, Egypt, Australia, Japan, Peru, Venezuela, Canada, Mexico, the Yucatan, and Puerto Rico for research and productions. Linda has written four books: Mysterious Lights and Crop Circles, 2nd edition, September 2002, about accounts and research regarding biophysical and biochemical changes in affected cereal crops by complex energy systems; An Alien Harvest about animal mutilation; Glimpses of Other Realities, Volumes I and II about U.S. military, intelligence and civilian testimonies concerning "unidentified phenomena interacting with earth life".

Linda is also asked to speak as an investigative reporter at national and international conferences and symposia, including NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, and has been interviewed on a Larry King Live special, CNN; The O'Reilly Factor, Fox; Sightings and Strange Universe, Fox; NBC's The Other Side; Britain's Union Pictures, ITN and BBC; The Discovery Channel special Evidence On Earth; and the NBC network special, Mysterious Origins of Man.
[edit] Personal life

She has a daughter, Laura Kathleen Howe, from her marriage (1968-1986) to Larry W. Howe. Her father was Chet Moulton, Idaho's Director of Aeronautics from 1946 to 1971 and recipient of many aviation honors. Her mother was Mabel K. Moulton. Her brother is James Moulton, an aviation simulator instructor at Lockheed-Martin.
[edit] Film/TV Documentary

* Guilty Madonnas - Medical
* Borrowed Faces - Environmental
* A Poison in the Wind – Environmental
* Sun Kissed Poison – Environmental
* Fire In The Water – Environmental
* A Strange Harvest – Environmental
* A Radioactive Water – Environmental
* A Prairie Dawn – Science and Technology
* Information's Electronic Future - Science and Technology
* Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms - Environmental
* Strange Harvests 1993 - Environmental
* Earth Mysteries: Alien Life Forms - Environmental
* Earthbeat - Environmental
* The Mole: World of Chemistry - Science
* UFO Report: Sightings - Environmental

Film Awards:

* Chicago Film Festival Golden Plaque, Documentary, A Radioactive Water.
* Denver Int’l. Film Festival, First Place, Documentary, Borrowed Faces.
* National Emmy Award Finalist, Community Service, Documentaries Poison in the Wind and A Sun Kissed Poison.
* Regional Emmy, Writing Achievement, Fire in the Water.
* Regional Emmy for Directing Achievement, A Radioactive Water.
* Regional Emmy for Sound Effects and Editing, A Strange Harvest.
* Regional Emmy Finalist, Best Documentary, The Guilty Madonnas.
* George Foster Peabody Award (Howe contributing producer of science and medical programming) for station excellence to WCVB-TV, Boston, Massachusetts.
* Sigma Delta Chi Excellence In Journalism Award, A Radioactive Water.
* Award for Writing Excellence, Aviation & Space Writers Association, A Prairie Dawn.
* Florence Sabin Award for "outstanding contribution to public health in documentary films and programs," presented by Colorado Public Health Association.
* Ohio State Award, Natural and Physical Sciences, Fire in the Water.
* Ohio State Award, Performing Arts, Borrowed Faces.
* Cine Golden Eagle, “for excellence to represent the United States in international motion picture events abroad," Borrowed Faces.
* American Film Festival, Gold Ribbon Award, Borrowed Faces.
* Colorado Broadcasters Award, Best Documentary, Colorado On Trial.
* Colorado Broadcasters Award, Best Documentary, Fire in the Water.
* Outstanding Film Award, Association for Educational Communications and Technology, Information’s Electronic Future.
* Creative Excellence Award, U. S. Industrial Film Festival, Information’s Electronic Future.
* New York Film and TV Festival, Bronze Award, Information’s Electronic Future.
* Citizens Participation Award from U. S. Environmental Protection Agency, for documentary films about air pollution and energy alternatives to fossil fuels.

[edit] References

1. ^ "(www.nexusmagazine.com) Bio: Linda Moulton Howe". Archived from the original on 2008-03-07. http://web.archive.org/web/20080307045521/http://www.nexusmagazine.com/Conf+2005/Linda+Moulton+Howe.html. Retrieved 2008-02-10.

* Alien Harvest: Further Evidence Linking Animal Mutilations and Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms © 1989. ISBN 0-9620570-1-0
* Glimpses of Other Realities, Vol. I: Facts and Eyewitnesses ISBN 0-9620570-5-3 © 1994.
* Glimpses of Other Realities, Vol. II: High Strangeness ISBN 0-9620570-3-7 © 1998.
* Mysterious Lights and Crop Circles ISBN 0-9620570-6-1 © 2002.

[edit] External links

* Earthfiles.com - Linda Moulton Howe's news website
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
Anders,

I've tried to avoid painting a target on my back by supporting any claims that I haven't personally observed.

However I have known Linda Moulton Howe since Junior High School, where we founded the Boise Astronomical Assoc together and participated in a series of Smithsonian sponsored projects. Her credentials are too extensive for me to summarize, but you can find lots of material about her and by her, with a little searching on the net. Her website gives a very tame summary:

"Earthfiles is a crossroads where experts, eyewitnesses and viewers meet to share the latest updates in earth and astronomical mysteries, in-depth reports that go beyond the 6 o'clock news. Earthfiles reporter and editor, Linda Moulton Howe, is an Emmy Award-winning TV producer, investigative reporter and author who goes directly to the men and women at the forefront of science and environmental challenges and to firsthand eyewitnesses of high strangeness. Earthfiles.com received the 2006 W3 Silver Award for excellence in news category. Earthfiles.com also received the 2003 WebAward for Standard of Excellence and the 2000 Encyclopaedia Britannica Award honoring internet excellence."

Linda is probably the most meticulous and disciplined researcher and reliable witness I've known. It is precisely because she is so careful in her research that she has been drawn into debunking and/or verifying some of the material being kicked around the taco.

Because of the reliable reputation that she has built for herself, there have been a few very serious attempts to discredit her. Those attempts failed miserably and have only added to her reputation as a fair witness.

I don't have either the energy or the interest to do a fraction of her research. If I didn't know her personally, I'd probably find it easy to disbelieve all of the wild information flying around. However because I've watched her work for years; I know that a lot of wild disinformation is covering up some highly strange realities.

Edit: Yeah, 'granite', that tells a little bit about her. (It didn't take you long to vet your NSA files.) However you aren't going to know what I'm referring to, if you only skim over superficial reports.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:01pm PT
And now buy the book! ONLY $45. It will open your eyes (and lighten your wallet)!


http://www.earthfiles.com/shop.php

Paypal and all major credit cards accepted!
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
Really Tom, you think GC has access to NSA files?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
Hey, you're giving away all my secrets!

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:45pm PT
I have no idea who GC is except as a anonymous source of serious disinformation salted with occasional real information to lend credence to the trash
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
Oh Geezus Christ...

Granite Climber
Geezus Christ

hmmm...
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
pathetic how the skeptics discount physical evidence by mocking the observers. A witness could be stoned on 10 hits of lsd and it wont make one whit of a difference what the camera records

consciously or subconsciously healyje, hawkeye, and graniteclimbers posts are disinfo or represent their own sad personal conditions. Their obsessiveness is peculiar tho, and their insessant replies keep this thread on top
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
Well, that's all well and good and all.

But, what do we REALLY "know" about Linda?
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^
what b said rocks.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
Linda Blair? Lovelace? Evans?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:02pm PT
Just a note that the 'Stanley Baubaire Scholarship' is a $100 annual scholarship from the scions of the local Fresno paper. All I see in her credentials is an environmental documentary writer / producer with a penchant for fiction on the ufo front.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:03pm PT
Tom, now how about that Ark?

Now that you've got SpaceStationSim out of the way...


I suppose you and your boys at Raytheon might have a MassiveFrickingFakeMoonArkSim underway?


Don't hold back. There are limits to our databases, and the NSA doesn't have any assets in moon orbit, that you would know of anyway (haha.)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
'Witnesses' are not evidence. Amazing how you folks can trot out endless witnesses and no hard evidence. It's even more amazing that our poor little planet has been positively beset by aliens of various races for 50 years and not one of them has had the common decency to simply land and chat.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
That sure is a big potatoe!!!111666

Tom, thanks for finding and posting the information about Linda Moulton Howe. We'll all draw our own conclusions from it, but hard information of that kind is appreciated.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
if granite really is an independent individual; that is a pretty amazing pool of disinformation resources being displayed...hard to believe it's just one curmudgeon coming up with all that trash

I have no idea who GC is except as a anonymous source of serious disinformation salted with occasional real information to lend credence to the trash

Tom,
this is pretty funny....i was thinking the same thing about Klimmer!

i think GC is having fun with someone who attributes everything to devils and angels, pretty hilarious really....
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
That object looks like a giant turd.

Aliens fly turd ships? Who knew!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
It's even more amazing that our poor little planet has been positively beset by aliens of various races for 50 years and not one of them has had the common decency to simply land and chat.

or beam us up...

or steal our valuables...

or shoot us with rayguns....


i guess if you believe this thread thought that one of the aliens may have gotten horny and spread it's DNA here....

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
You don't mean that klimmer is one of the nephilim, do you? That would be diabolical!
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:16pm PT

“Your next they’re coming for you”
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Be afraid, be very afraid:

dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:21pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
just a note that the 'Stanley Baubaire Scholarship' is a $100 annual scholarship from the scions of the local Fresno paper. All I see in her credentials is an environmental documentary writer / producer with a penchant for fiction on the ufo front.

And the "W3 Silver Awards" are for anyone who will ante up the $95 "entry fee."
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:25pm PT
whatever GC is, he's it on steroids. brings to mind that old english phrase, "crashing bore".
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:27pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:29pm PT


WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
Actually in all truth a lot of the responses from all the sides are pretty funny.

If you you get all too serious about this sh'it then you're definitely hosed ....
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
I just spent the last hour on the phone with Linda Moulton Howe and learned a lot from her, as usual. She may even jump in and join this forum discussion. If you had known her as long as I, you would never have guessed that she would not have grown up to be an astronomer or astrophysicist.

I'll try to share a few points from our conversation:

She is working on her fifth book and another TV documentary.

She would really rather be reporting on less controversial topics. She has always been a magnet for people who want to share their stories. Whenever she has tried, she gets pulled right back into it by people with stories to tell and events to research.

It is rather mysterious why the government has worked so hard to cover up so many things that should be general knowledge. She is now literally overwhelmed by approaches from military people who were heavily threatened to keep secrets and who now no longer trust the government. Many of them are near the ends of their lives and who want to publish their stories. Some of these stories are going back into the 1920s with US and UK intel documents on the Nazis. You've already heard enough stories to know what we're talking about here, whether or not you took them seriously.

You want real data that rewrites the history books? Check out Linda’s Earthfiles:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1769&category=Science

An astounding discovery of huge limestone columns erected in a series of circles in southeastern Turkey that date to 12,000 years ago. In 1994, German archaeologist Klaus Schmidt, Ph.D., from the University of Heidelberg and the German Archaeological Institute, began to slowly and carefully excavate a large, hilltop site called Gobekli Tepe about six miles northeast of Urfa, Turkey. Older than Egypt, Sumeria and Stonehenge, forty standing, T-shaped limestone columns have so far been uncovered in four circles 98 feet (30 meters) in diameter.

Ground-penetrating radar surveys indicate there might be at least 250 more standing stones in eighteen still-buried circles. Finely honed reliefs and some 3-dimensional sculptures on the limestone columns depict boars, foxes, lions, birds, snakes, scorpions, vultures, reptiles, humans and other odd figures and symbols. German archaeologist Schmidt says he has no idea what the reliefs and 3-dimensional carvings mean. And to date, no metal tools have been found since the meticulous digging and dating began in 1994. Today, only 5% of the temple complex of repeating stone circles has been uncovered.

Adding to the mystery of who built Gobekli Tepe? And why? is the revelation that 10,800 years ago, the entire Gobekli site was buried. How long would that have taken? Did the makers have knowledge of impending danger? The effort needed to erect the many large stone circles 12,000 years ago and then fifteen hundred years later have the entire temple site buried is incomprehensible.

But whether or not we ever learn who built Gobekli Tepe and why, the carbon dating at 12,000 years ago gives new life to the theory of John Anthony West and geologist Dr. Robert Schoch that the Egyptian sphinx is at least that old as well. In May 2010, John Anthony West and Robert Schoch traveled to Gobekli Tepe to see for themselves the extraordinary temple site in southeastern Turkey that John says is the smoking gun after their twenty years of trying to show that the water erosion on the Sphinx means that stone sculpture is much older than originally thought.


monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:44pm PT
I agree Tony, GC's pics are boring compared to imagining Eisenhower negotiating with aliens.

Do you think Eisenhower gave the green light for them to mutilate animals and make crop circles?

What did we get?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
if granite really is an independent individual; that is a pretty amazing pool of disinformation resources being displayed...hard to believe it's just one curmudgeon coming up with all that trash

it's amazing, not only his art resources but the time he devotes to it and the speed with which he churns the stuff out in an effort to monopolize all the threads he attacks.

funny thing, you never see him in the other threads, and, despite his name, i haven't witnessed him talking about climbing. i wonder whether he's a climber at all. anyone know this, ah, character out there in the real world?
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:47pm PT
Upgrade your google skillz Tony. It's not that hard.

Maybe you and Tom should ditch the telegraph line and upgrade to dial-up?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
Tom, you write, "It is rather mysterious why the government has worked so hard to cover up so many things that should be general knowledge" and then you spend the rest of your post writing about Gobekli Tepe.

You are delusional if you think the government is working to "cover up" Gobekli Tepe. It was the subject of a Smithsonian article a year or two ago. Smithsonian is published by the Smithsonian Institue, established, owned and managed by the U.S. Government.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:55pm PT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
for those with ADD:

It is rather mysterious why the government has worked so hard to cover up so many things that should be general knowledge. Linda Moulton Howe is now literally overwhelmed by approaches from military people who were heavily threatened to keep secrets and who now no longer trust the government. Many of them are near the ends of their lives and want to publish their stories. Some of these stories are going back into the 1920s with US and UK intel documents on the Nazis. You've already heard enough stories to know what we're talking about here, whether or not you took them seriously.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
Tom,

About that ark, when will the MassiveFrickingFakeMoonArkSim be released?

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
mono lith:

i was one of the first people in the world using a remote teletype logging into the first time-sharing mainframes

i was using dial-up before your parents had had met or had heard the word computer

not long ago I was project manager for NASA's supercomputer complex

currently i use multiple computers with multiple screens on high speed lines

do you have a better idea?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
This site is well known for misogyny, and the triple threat of a woman, an actual researcher and un-politically correct information will likely cause the worst pricks to jump on their erections and blaze around like the worst kinds of punks that they represent.

This from the guy channeling Sam Kinnison!





Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:16pm PT
FWIW, the introduction to Ms. Howe's Wikipedia entry, which appears to be identical or nearly so to what was posted, says:

This biographical article is written like a résumé. Please help improve it by revising it to be neutral and encyclopedic. (February 2010)

This article relies largely or entirely upon a single source. Please help improve this article by introducing appropriate citations to additional sources. (February 2010)

This biographical article needs additional citations for verification. Please help by adding reliable sources. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous or harmful. (July 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Moulton_Howe

She seems a somewhat controversial figure.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
Yes, it reads like an infomercial for Linda.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
how 'bout it, GC, ever done any climbing?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2010 - 08:20pm PT
Tom,

Thanks for all the posts. I read them with interest. I will be looking into Linda's website. Thanks again.

I would second Rokjox's warning. As much as I would like to see Linda post here, and talk with her, I fear for anyone of us on any given day for doing so. You never know what kind of juvenile attacks it will provoke or worse. Sometimes they are even XXX!


I'm getting to the point, and it is certainly from teaching HS for many years, all of us teachers develope this defense mechanism to some degree, we just got to let it all not bother us like "Water off a duck's back."

Graniteclimber who?

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
did i say the wrong thing?!! two big UH-53 helicopters just made a low pass over my house in the mountains!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
ah, klimmer, that explains your thick skin. wonder why i didn't think of that. i thought you were a real saint.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
Tony, I'm not interested. I climb with people of all races, religions and from both sides of the political spectrum, but I don't climb with people I consider to be irrational. For example, you would not find me roping up with Klimmer.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
i'm pretty interested in hearing what you know about climbing, GC, if anything. i've kinda come to think you're an outsider giving us a hard time.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
Tom, please warn her carefully about the stinking anti-intellectuals on this site.

Now that is highly amusing. Is that what you think all this gross speculation and fiction is? An intellectual exercise? Now that's rich. When any of it gets peer-reviewed or presents hard evidence you'd have the beginnings of a scientific exercise, but still a long way from an intellectual one. As it is it's alternately a comedy of the absurd belief absent facts and a bunch of fiction writers making a buck.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
Sorry Tom, I told them not to be obvious, but those pilots like to whoop it up sometimes. You sure live way the frick out there! It's not like they are going to DRIVE out there in a car. LOL

Your friendly evil NSA illuminati.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:28pm PT
you probably don't have much climbing experience if you draw the line at "rational".
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:29pm PT
As far as you're concerned, I don't have any! I don't climb with kooks!

Edit: This isn't a joke. It's rare that someone will post something to supertopo that would make me not want to climb with them "in real life" but it does happen. It's a very short list, but you're on it. Oh, and also, Tony, I really don't care WHAT you think.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
i don't think you climb at all, bud.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
PICS, PICS, PICS LETS SEE YOU CLIMBING !
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
he'll dig up some pics from his homeland security file--their resources are well-funded and pretty much unlimited. they use a lot of disney artists--you can see that in what he's giving us.

the real test would be some off-the-cuff knowledge about climbing. i don't think he has any. he's dodging the question here. he's probably over on other climbing sites going through trip reports and the like.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
Tom, please warn her carefully about the stinking anti-intellectuals on this site. I found the riot that was occasioned by the pilot coming on our site to be overwhelming, and I wasn't even the focus of their screaming and hatred.

This site is well known for misogyny, and the triple threat of a woman, an actual researcher and un-politically correct information will likely cause the worst pricks to jump on their erections and blaze around like the worst kinds of punks that they represent.

the pilot came here to get hits on his site. he was(is) a sleeze bag that you looked up to and his pathetic attempt to get more hits resulted in him saying adios. too bad, i know you were like a giddy school girl when he showed up....must have been a major dispointment when he was outed and wouldnt play in your sandbox.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
graniteclimber-

you always respond so very quickly

respond to this one before you have time to consult with your team handler

i think we would all like to know who you are

the real person, not the pseudo-name...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:42pm PT
You want pics. OK. Here's one.

Pic

Wait, my mistake, that's Tony!

Pic

Oops again, sorry Bullwinkle. I got my files mixed up. LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
Mr. Tom "NASA Supercomputer Project Manager" Cochrane,

What did you have in your Supercomputer complex on Klimmer's Massive Space Ark?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
tick...tick...tick...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
gc is fine. fightin fire with fire as it were.

strong measures require strong measures. right about now i bet he is looking into trying to disburse some sanity over klimmers neighborhood via chemtrails...

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
tick...tick...tick...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
good question GC. how about those NASA files?

Tom, you sound like a reasonable, experienced and educated person on some other threads. what gives?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
hmm...gc seems short of words for a change...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
i'll be happy to answer gc's question as soon as he answers mine...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
he found my photo on the web, but he neglected to post the ad that goes with it.

might as well do another shameless plug, i'm not proud:

"more songs than you can shake a schtick at"

Tony Bird sings up folk songs, country songs, cowboy songs, songs about trucks, ducks and runamucks, hillbilly songs, city slicker songs, pop, rock, jock, tavern songs, pub songs, sailor songs, Child ballads (not for children), lullabyes (for frazzled parents), children’s songs (for kids and grownups), risquété and ribaldry (for grownups and kids who think they are), love songs, songs that bare the soul, songs that bare the bottom, the funny, sad, bad, for mom, for dad, those who are glad, those who’ve been had, and even for those who are glad they’ve been had.
If you get tired of songs in English, Tony offers (in order of abundance) songs in Italian, Spanish, German, Japanese, Greek, French, and Russian, with a bit o’ schtick as to what they’re all about.

Tony accompanies himself mostly on the acoustical guitar but also makes use of the mandolin, 5-string banjo, autoharp, harmonica, jaw harp, tub bass, and even the violin (not the fiddle, now).
Tony’s philosophy, since he started singing folk music in high school, has been: if a song is worth remembering, learn it—before it gets away.

Tony is a former UCLA university fellow in Folklore and Mythology, where he also worked as research assistant in the Archive of Traditional Music.


oops ... am i dumping?
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
Yeah Tom

He's, (graniteclimber), a fuking pussy and freak show stalker.

Let's hear it freak , answer Toms question.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
I'm dealing with people who are BATSH#T CRAZY here and they want me to give them my name and post pictures of myself. I DON'T THINK SO HOMIE!!! You guys are CRAZY.

Oh, and if there is a conspiracy to hide a 6 mile long alien ark laying on the back side of the moon, Tom Cochrane is in it up to his eyebrows. He is the one touting his NASA credentials, not me.




He is The Man.


^^^^^^^^^
Second from the right--that's Buzz Aldrin, second man to walk on the moon.




Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
freak show stalker

at least you got the freak show part right...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
Hey, that's really cool! Tom Cochrane is a singer, too. And a Canadian - I didn't know that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Cochrane

Oh wait, wrong Tom.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
Tony is a former UCLA university fellow in Folklore and Mythology,

Folklore and mythology, huh? That explains a lot!

After easily 40 years of climbing, I KNOW that the "races" represented by climbers is damn few. I see white guys almost exclusively. They are almost all "liberal" in some way, but they don't hardly come from anywhere but the white homeland, whatever that is.b And when does a climber make much of his religion? They is all got the white religion, Christianity. There are FEW of the other kinds of climbers.

Maybe that's how things still are in backwoods Idaho, but the rest of the world has moved on.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
Tony, I really don't care WHAT you think

au contraire, frčre, you care lots and lots. your primary motivation here is to stamp out all the perceived kooky opinions being expressed.

but let's get you on the table, GC. nonclimbers are welcome here, and if you've been posing as a climber, we'll forgive you if you come clean. LEB, a nonclimber and a woman as well, holds her own amidst the abuse of the intellectually inferior. and if she thinks you're loopy, she's polite about it.

on the other hand, if you're embarrassed to death here, as you rightly ought to be, you can disappear and come back as a new troll. however, we'll remember you well. when the clickart avalanche hits, we'll know it's a reincarnation of ol' GC.

(drumming fingers) ... still waiting to hear about GC's climbing on granite.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:01pm PT



Very seldom have I ever had an intellectual discussion peer reviewed, Healy. Standing around yelling about how ignorant all the other posters are doesn't make you a respected peer. It makes you a rude jerkoff.


I fully expect considerable disagreement can be had without personal attacks on some bodies employment history. Somewhere.


Hawkspit is one of the worst, never posting a climbing thought, because his identity would be outed immediately, and without his secret identity, he would have nothing.

Not that he has anything with it.

i got a job, how about you? or is it your job to post a bunch of crap on ST? don't you have any wolves to bitch about?

the only thing you know about in your post is being a
a rude jerkoff.

after workin to support your a$$ your wife is prolly too tired to give up the goods...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
RJ, you are an ignorant one, i will give you that compliment.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
GC, the technical term for this is ad hominem, which has been your specialty. we're turning it around now. you really have to convince us of some climbing credentials if you expect to maintain credibility dominating these threads the way you do.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:04pm PT
This thread is going downhill fast!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
hehe--can't get a straight answer out of guy.

try singing this: "daisy, daisy, give me your answer, do ..."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
GC, you need a pic of a crying baby.

apparently the peanit gallery thinks that your crdibility is in jeapordy, i know how that must hurt your feelings (this last sentance was posted in sarcasm text)...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
Me feelings are so hurt!


nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
from upthread,

certainly from teaching HS for many years, all of us teachers develope this defense mechanism to some degree

"develope" Your a teacher? Really? Was Dan Quail your teacher?

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
What happened to our NASA guy? He has credibility--he in upper management of the U.S government's military industrial complex. This thread is about a massive alien ark on the moon. I want to hear what he has to say.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
well, RJ. name one lie? seriously....


yes, i am a professional. it has just not occurred to you that there is ONE person on this site who has repeatedly shown his loudmouth obnoxious behaviour who i have lost all tolerance for, guess who?

from your rantings about wolves, the city of rocks and your ability to be an expert at all things.

the real story here rj is that you should try and get a job so that you actually have to deal with people in a professional environment, instead of being the worthless blowhard that you are. it would really do you some good...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
gc?

tick...tick...tick...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:22pm PT

When the cuckoo chirps, you're time is up!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
you guys are funny.

GC has simply gotten fed up with poor Klimmer's breakdown here after reading about Bad Vaccines, 911 Conspiracies, Chemtrails and Arks on the Moon. he is fighting ridiculousness with ridiculousness...

sorry that you don't see that, do you see an ark on the moon too?
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
graniteclimber -- "This thread is going downhill fast!"

Nope ... it's YOU, you're going downhill fast!

You're a pussy .....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
thanks RJ! i am honored to not be on your friends list. guess i will rescend my invite to you to interact on facebook! i am heartbroken.



i had a cuckoo clock like that once. funny thing is i can see Klimmer coming out of it on the hour....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:25pm PT

When will the MassiveFrickingMoonArkSim game come out?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
werner I think i found GC's picture, you did say he was a pussy right? here is what google brought up....you guys may want to play nice and apply more stroke

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
Did someone say PUSSY













































































































PUSSYCAT?



WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Awh fuk it.

Have fun in your romper room granite.

You're still a pussy though .....
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
HEY GC, is this you? If it is you your a fkn pussy. If not you stole someones identity and so your a criminal and a pussy.
I got this... oh... you know where


your outed pussy.

Edit: here's the caption:

"Fire Chief" David Wilds of South Fulton, Tennessee. If you want your house to BURN TO THE GROUND and your pets to BURN TO DEATH, he is your man!

* Currently 0.00/5

bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
I'd enjoy hearing Linda's big picture analysis, she certainly has covered enough subjects from military UFO encounters to cattle & horse mutilations. What I haven't ever heard is her opinion about the total extraterrestrial equation, she is the best informed non military/government analyst on the ET question I would think.

That's really what this is all about, the ET question

Linda come on down ! Not all of us are jerks. Start a new thread.

Almost time to IP ban a few folks here MOD's if you're reading this, I would like to hear what Linda has to say without being Spammed by graniteclimber
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:46pm PT
Wonder that is David Wilds, proud Fire Chief of the South Fulton, Tennessee. You may have heard of him. He let a house burn to the ground and three pets burn to death because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee.

The City of South Fulton was so proud of what he did that they took down their entire web site.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
No never heard of him. what's he got to do with you?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:48pm PT
There was a whole thread about it.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
Ok, so are you going to show us your climbing pics?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:53pm PT

















































































































Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 09:57pm PT
Yep alot of monkey business going on.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:00pm PT
This is their King.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPN3gLVDsOY

Check out the dyno and his recovery from it 0:30 to 0:35
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
I'm bummed. Unlike graniteclimber I can't put "Illuminati Mole" on my resume.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
























I wish I could tell you, but I can't give away ALL our secrets.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:24pm PT
I think we can safely put gc in the category of 'system noise'

Ok, so I’ll answer the question about the moon, assuming you want a slightly longer answer than, no or I don't know. The first I heard about the great ark was on this site, although I might have run across it in other literature and don’t recall.

I read a lot of material on all sorts of subjects and have a large personal library. I have a lot more material on what you might call unusual phenomena than has appeared here, although there are a few things that have appeared here that were unfamiliar to me. The challenge has always been that there is so much professionally published disinformation material that it is hard to determine what is the truth that they are trying to steer you away from.

I have noticed that anytime someone gets close to the truth on some of these subjects, you can count on a dozen alternate realities being published to throw you off the track. I call that the Big Lie Technique. You can tell how important the truth might be, by looking at how much disinformation gets published on the subject.

NASA has immense stores of data that have never been looked at. The NASA Ames Supercomputer complex has online storage facilities measured in petabytes and growing rapidly. I am a glutton for information, but this makes the Library of Congress look like a storage closet.

NASA Goddard in Maryland competes with Ames in this area. The first time I got a tour three decades ago from one of my astronomer/climbing partners; we walked down long hallways that were stacked high with 16” magnetic computer tapes, a lot of it from Apollo. Nobody around seemed to know what to do with them.

There was also a long series of mission operation rooms, each dedicated to a particular active exploration mission. You could glance into the room and guess the decade in which the mission had been launched by the era of the computers in the room. Some of them were vacuum tube computers with punched paper tape and cards. Decades later some of these are still in operation and still cranking out data.

Part of the challenge at NASA Ames Supercomputer Division is making sense out of all this data. The programming team on site is kept busy doing a lot of work in Computational Fluid Dynamics for flight vehicles. Another major focus is global climate modeling. Ames is quite proud of being able to run global climate models dramatically faster than other supercomputer centers around the world.

The projects I helped manage are run by teams all over the world, who are given accounts to login to the supercomputer complex. The work can involve anything you are likely to read about in any scientific journal. The ability to crunch massive amounts of data is opening up possibilities for understanding in many fields of research. Part of our job in the project office was prioritizing who would get how much computational access to the complex. I was D/Project Mgr/Lead Systems Engineer for Computational Aerospace Sciences.

So back to lunar data: Various endeavors have come together to geo-reference lunar photography and datasets. Over the years I have done a lot of in-the-trenches work to geo-reference scanned maps and satellite photography leading up to Google Earth and NASA WorldWind. It is extremely tedious work.

The current Director of NASA Ames is an astronomer USAF general who was the power behind the Clementine Mission to the Moon. We’ve had discussions late into the night over too many bottles of wine on some of these subjects. If anyone knows about the great ark, it would be him; as he ran the USAF Space Systems Division. However the topic never came up. He made some agreements with Google that brought you GoogleMoon. (I was recently tagged to work on that, but a younger brat got the job.) He has also in recent years started up an important project to recover all the old tapes with lunar data and bring them onto modern media. They had to rebuild an old 16” tape drive from the Mountainview Computer History Museum in order to get started. I have met their project director and some of the people and toured their facility.

They are working hard to improve the resolution and clean up the tape noise to produce clean images. They periodically release new products on the web, and you have probably seen some of the detailed images from Apollo sites, showing vehicle shadows and astronaut footprints. I had fun at that meeting in the picture above, showing Buzz Aldrin some 3D computer images of his footprints on the moon.

I think it is highly unlikely that the crew at Ames could be enlisted to blot out pictures of alien spacecraft; and even less likely that could be going on and someone would not have let me know about it. However how can I be sure? Perhaps that is why I haven’t been invited onto the project, even though it’s an area of expertise for me. The real reason is senior guys are expensive and NASA is trying to hire a younger crowd.

There is lots more going on than I know about, and I learn about things all the time. However UFOs is not a general topic of conversation around there. But that doesn’t convince me whether there is something worth talking about. Because, remember; I know Linda…
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
This wouldn't be the case of a one or two fuzzy res. frames taken from lunar orbit on misplaced reel of magnetic tape over at Goddard. According to Klimmer, a secret Apollo mission was launched to visit the ark. Apollo 20 - Fact or fiction?
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:33pm PT
did you go climbing on granite or knott?
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
I guess they clock out at 8



nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 12, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
Being good at math apparently can be synonymous with being crazy.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 12, 2010 - 11:07pm PT
I want to know what Linda thinks about the ET equation, the stuff she would never post to Earthfiles.com
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 12, 2010 - 11:42pm PT

I'm something of a historian on human space flight; which proved pretty useful for the Constellation Program. I was a brat running backup mainframe computers for Apollo when I wasn't hanging out in Camp 4 or working on filming 'Solo' and have been a space nut all my life.

I'm pretty sure that all the known Saturn launch vehicles are accounted for. I have not researched that exhaustively, but probably have the means to do so and perhaps should for this forum. I have records for the allocation of every Apollo/Saturn element used or unused; unless there were some manufactured in secret and not listed in the inventory. I actually have original blueprints for some of the elements. I have toured MAF in New Orleans and it is a huge facility, about 40 acres under one roof, where you could conceivably conceal elements, even though they are large. And it is hard to fathom the size of the Vehicle Assembly Building at the Cape, as you don't have anything else in your experience to compare it to. You walk up to this building like walking up to the side of El Cap with nothing to give you a perspective. You walk into this huge door, hard to say how big; into an immense room that seems endless. After walking through it for a while you realize this is just the anteroom as you pass into an immensely larger space, where it is hard to even get a perspective across it. You start wondering where are those big space shuttles, and then start to see them tucked into relatively small bays in the side of the room.

Saturn V:
SA-512 was Apollo 17 to Taurus Littrow with Cernan, Evans, and Schmitt
SA-513 put SkyLab into Earth orbit unmanned
SA-514 was unused and elements in 1975 were at MAF, KSC, and MSFC
SA-515 was unused and elements in 1975 were at MAF, KSC, and MSFC
Saturn IB:
SA 209 (ASTP Backup) KSC
SA 211 MAF KSC MSFC
SA 212 KSC, S-IVB Stage used on SA 513; and MSFC for disposal
SA 213 MAF (declared surplus, stripped and placed on lot)
SA 214 MAF (ditto)

So for the past ten years I have seen three fairly complete Saturn Vs that were not launched and I have climbed all over them; in Houston, Huntsville and the Cape. The interstages seem to have disappeared along the way. I've seen one became a storage shed at MSFC, along with a neglected SkyLab carcass, that I think is finally being rejuvenated. There is also a complete Instrument Ring at MSFC and an incomplete one in Houston. These Saturn Vs were badly neglected for thirty years, but have now been carefully restored to museum quality in the past few years. It’s worth the trip just to go see one of them.

There is also a static display Saturn 1B that I have seen at MSFC

So could there have been off-the-record vehicles manufactured and launched – perhaps…

Did they? I can only say that people tend to tell me about things like that, and I know a lot of the players and nobody has mentioned anything to me.

Do I think I know about everything? Absolutely not…

That’s the best I can tell you.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:10am PT
So could there have been off-the-record vehicles manufactured and launched – perhaps…

Undetected from what facility?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:25am PT
Linda has published extensively on what she knows. My experience with her tells me to trust her reports. I know very well that she would much rather report on much less controversial subjects. She has been drawn into this area of reporting against her will, out of a sense of duty and honesty and persistence.

I have watched the long version of the story unfold, and it is not a pleasant story or one she would have ever wished upon herself. She was the outstanding girl in my High School with all the advantages: her parents some of the most respected members of the community, she was brilliant, beautiful, musically talented, (the piano accompanist for my senior violin recital), Miss Idaho, first runner-up for Miss America, and then married a respectable TV producer. Then she was given an investigative reporter assignment that completely changed her life in ways she never would have imagined (Strange Harvest). She certainly didn't need this in her life. If I didn't know her so well, I probably wouldn't believe what she has to say. But for the record and whatever you may think of me, I do trust her.

Linda is not a fiction writer; she is an investigative reporter and she is very careful about reporting exactly what she herself sees; or else carefully quotes and references the people who give her reports. If she didn't see it herself, she tells you in detail about the person who did and why she believes their report or not. For example one of the people in a missile silo launch control facility that was deactivated by a UFO was her brother.

Linda is especially careful because she does a lot of reporting about things that have been very heavily subjected to ridicule and disinformation.

I can not personally verify most of what she reports. However I have trained a lot of trackers and the first thing I teach them is the difficult art of seeing the fact of the track and not jumping to conclusions; i.e. postponing 'the story' until the track analysis makes it inevitable. I originally learned that method as a child from Linda. Then I relearned it from one of the best trackers in the world.

It is often very difficult to learn the truth of things. It requires suspending disbelief while you have the courage to go search out the facts. This usually requires a lot of hard work. Listening to the voices of the crowd is not how you verify the truth of things.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:27am PT
i'd like to meet linda--seriously.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:30am PT
It is often very difficult to learn the truth of things.

It is not at all difficult to learn the truth when verifiable, peer-reviewable evidence is presented in an assertion of fact.

It requires suspending disbelief while you have the courage to go search out the facts.

No, it doesn't require "suspending disbelief"; personal beliefs don't really enter into science or real investigative journalism - true versions of both rest on verifiable facts.

If you don't have those, you don't have facts, you have hearsay, innuendo, rumor, ardent beliefs, misinterpretations, delusions, fiction, manufactured lies, or something else, but you don't have facts.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:50am PT
I don't recall meeting a J Norris...

There are lots of places where major programs can be kept secluded. I just mentioned the immense size of the MAF and VAB facilities. Plant 42 in Lancaster is another huge facility that was secret for many years and has now been taken over by NASA for non-classified projects like SOPHIA. I visited it about the time NASA took it over. Vandenburg AFB has extensive launch facilities; we just saw a major classified launch northwards over Monterey Bay into a polar orbit. The Air Force recently took over a NASA space plane that I saw neglected for years at Dryden, and launched it out of Canaveral with minimum news coverage. Area 51 and S2 are huge classified facilities. The list goes on and on. Perhaps someone wants to start a thread on underground facilities. That's another huge subject. If you honestly want to learn about stuff, then there is information available. I've actually learned some interesting things on these threads. Some of you just want something else to make noise about. And obviously the MIBs are trolling and dissing. Perhaps it is too much to ask that you take the noise to someplace that appreciates it, like perhaps a football game...
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:57am PT
Area 51 and S2 are huge classified facilities.

Ho man .... someone ought to start a thread on that stuff.

The signal to noise level will surely rise to unprecedented levels.

Might be fun and interesting though .......
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:03am PT
Linda is very approachable, but demands on her time are intense. You can email her at earthfiles, but she gets about 4000 a month and can't get through them all. She has a studio in her house in Albuquerque where she gives frequent radio interviews for stations all over the world; when she's not traveling all over the world following up on investigations that she is pursuing. The best approach might be to attend one of her presentations when she comes within reach of your home. Believe me, she'd much rather be doing something 'ordinary' with her life...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:08am PT
My climbing partner astronomer friend at Goddard was working on the Compton GRO. I got sucked into it for a while trying to put an array of fast response radio telescopes on top of the White Mountains above Bishop for observing gamma ray bursts in real time. I got the girl (manager of White Mountain Research Center); but not the observatory (it went to Kit Peak instead)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT












healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:17am PT
Rokjox: When the facts are handed to you on a plate with a table of contents, an ingredient list and the affidavits of the Chef, the Maitre'd and the dishwasher, you can take them as gospel. That is, as long as someone handing you the dish SAYS they are gospel.

Independently verifiable facts are just that, there is nothing special or mysterious about them. Ditto peer-reviewed research, zero mystical about that as well. It's actually all quite clear cut and out in the open.

Rokjox: I wonder how well you handle the situation when it's not so carefully cut to conform with your desires and prejudices.

Those "desires and prejudices" are entirely compromised of independently verifiable facts, hard evidence, and reproducible, peer-reviewed research. Anything less is not facts and is not science, but again something else.

Rokjox: Discerning truth from lie, fact from fiction and manipulation from honesty is harder once you leave the library.

If discerning truth from lies and fact from fiction were easy we wouldn't need the scientists, peer-reviewed journals, courts, investigators, journalists, or detectives - it's often hard work - but just making sh#t up to suit your beliefs doesn't count and never will. What you guys are engaging in is belief, innuendo, rumor, fiction, lies, business, and entertainment depending on who is involved and in what capacity.

But be it vaccines, chemtrails, sasquatch, nessie, ufos, or take your pick, what you lack is hard independently verifiable evidence and peer-reviewed research. Nothing presented in any of these threads that I've seen so far rise to that criteria.

TomCochrane: So could there have been off-the-record vehicles manufactured and launched – perhaps…

And again, undetected from what facility?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:33am PT
Yeah, remotely operated telescopes are becoming very popular. My computer directed 6" Meade lets me see in one evening what used to take me all summer to find as a boy in Boise.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:35am PT
Diego Garcia
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:37am PT
Well, my folks lived in Solvang for a long time and had PX privs at Vandenberg and I can tell you for a fact there is no way anyone could ever launch a Saturn from there undetected even if the facilities were there to do it which they never were.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:38am PT
Diego Garcia? Really? An undetected Saturn launch? Shitload of swabbies you'd have to shut up for that not to mention half of Asia.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:39am PT
The launching of a Saturn V or Space Shuttle sized-rocket can be seen and heard for several hundred kilometres. Probably impossible to conceal in the continental US for that reason alone, not forgetting other physical evidence - visible while in transit or on return, radio to and from, and so on. Plus cost, assembly, and on and on. And awful hard to hide anywhere else, although Antarctica might work. But I guess hard evidence isn't important, is it?

Although in this Through the Looking Glass thread, who knows?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:41am PT
RJ,
WHY are these lies being presented as truth?

read a conservative blog, read fox news. there is a lot of sh#t out there, especially on the net that is wrong or all out lies.


So given that SOME of the crap IS REAL, like crop circles, the UFO's seen over the military bases, and we assume the disabling of the nukes, just as three "for instances"
.


nukes don't just get disabled. they are ENGINEERED. by ENGINEERS.

you saying this is like the blond who can't start her car kicks the tire and it starts running and goes on her merry way thinking something magical happened.

stop making an ASS out yourself man, its embarrassing.

EDIT:

yes WIKI, the authoritative reference for all internet intellectuals and wannabes...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:42am PT
The scientific method is very powerful for examining repeatable reproducible phenomena.

Unfortunately it has some embarrassing limitations in a universe full of unique non-repeatable instances. The scientific response sometimes seems to be that none of those things happened.

And if it didn't happen to me, it didn't happen.

The latest twist seems to be if you didn't get it on video, it didn't happen. And if you did get it on camera...

all pictures are lies!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:46am PT
tom,

science's flaws rest mainly within the people performing the work. you are smart enough to know that ( i thought).

you worked on NIF right? multibillion $ project that has never been done beofre, right? based upon science and engineering...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:06am PT
Tom, are you really claiming Vandenberg or Diego Garcia had a Saturn launch capability?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:09am PT
I am not trying to argue that Apollo flights past Apollo 17 happened. My best estimate is that they did not. I know where those three Saturn Vs are sitting and can take you to them on the ground.

However we are examining whether it could have happened. I do think there could theoretically have been other Saturns manufactured and launched without public knowledge, whether at Vandenburg (which does have lots of major launches) or Diego Garcia or even sea launched from a carrier. However any Saturn launch requires MAJOR ground support infrastructure and a huge ground support team with specialized expertise. It takes an immense stretch in imagination to think that actually happened, at least that way. I know enough of the players to think it would have leaked out big time. And why build some more of these incredibly expensive birds, when we have at least three more of them sitting around as museum pieces??

On the other hand the size of the black budget and the existence of major secret facilities at least gives room to wonder about it. Another aspect of this is why would you want to, when Atlas or Delta can give you what you need, although perhaps requiring multiple launches. Recognize that the Russian Proton with a Soyuz capsule was originally designed for lunar missions and only later adapted for low-earth-orbit space-stations.

I also have reason to believe that much of what NASA does is just a cover-up.

Linda points out that the government has been running around for years trying to put a finger in all the holes in the leaky dike. I don't see this being one they are concerned about.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:19am PT

((Edit: OOps! Port took his Epicurious post and quote questioning God, and went home.

Yes rokjox Port & granite clocked out @ 800 pm. healyje has the swing shift. And Hawkeye seems to be a team effort. The pissed off guy that always wants you to have a job clocked out and now we have the reasonable guy,



"science's flaws rest mainly within the people performing the work. you are smart enough to know that ( i thought).

you worked on NIF right? multibillion $ project that has never been done beofre, right? based upon science and engineering..."

dots are forming before my eyes...


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:23am PT
Don't forget the South Pole Base in Antarctica.




This would explain why Werner von Braun and other top NASA management visited Antartica in 1966-1967.


Left to right: Maxime A. Faget (NASA Space Task Group), Dr. Robert Gilruth (director, NASA Manned Spacecraft Center), Werner von Braun (the German rocket scientist), two un-named scientists from the mysterious "Project Deep Freeze", and Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger (another of the German scientists who worked with von Braun and was brought to the USA after the war).

Here is a file photo on the NASA web site: Dr. von Braun, Director of the Marshall Space Flight Center (MSFC), at the South Pole Antarctica. January 7, 1967. http://www.nasaimages.org/luna/servlet/detail/nasaNAS~9~9~59149~162994:



Remember that Antarctica was also home to the Nazi UFO bases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lyJKNPU2wE







































































(snicker)

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:26am PT
Yeah, the NIF is built from theoretical knowledge, but it also has the background from the NOVA and other experiments. Remains to be seen if it works. Similarly with the SLAC LCLS.

My uncle was chief engineer for the Hanford plutonium extraction plants...same sort of deal, major infrastructure, never done before, not sure it would even work, based upon Dupont's experience with other chemical extraction plants. It worked.

There are lots of examples along the same line.

What's not along the same line is things we observe that don't fit our knowledge or anything we know how to do.

For example Linda has examined hundreds of mutilations of cattle and many other creatures all over the world where we have no idea how to repeat what can be observed, by any known surgical means; certainly not when she first researched this decades ago, and still true. That demonstrates repeatable instances of something we just don't understand. There is no surgical incision into the cell walls. It appears that the cells just detach from each other at the face of the incision and the outer layer of cells is mildly cauterized. And the animals are usually found containing no blood and none found at the scene.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:28am PT
GC, the base photo doesn't look like Amundsen-Scott at the South Pole. It could be the base at McMurdo Sound, but that's 1,600+ km north.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:30am PT
Ba da bing! #2,000. At least as profound as most of the other posts on this thread.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:30am PT
Your so weird. No one cares what happened 43 years ago.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 02:30am PT
OK guys good discussions.

Even got GC posting something relevant (finally), Apollo ? at KSC in Florida.




I've been waiting to post this next series of images.

If Apollo 20 did take place and lifted off from Launch Pad 6 from Vandenburg, CA, in July 1976, as CMDR William Rutledge claims then let's consider the footage from the Apollo 20 ingress he has posted.


While reading the book Apollo 20: The Disclosure on vacation this past Summer, we drove by the front gate to Vandenburg AFB and I took a few shots. They give free tours onto the base the second Wednesday of every month. You can call public affairs at 805-606-2076, to sign up. Then they do background checks. They'll probably never let me go. I can just hear it now, "You wouldn't be Klimmer on ST would you?" :










These are frames from the film of the supposed Apollo 20 ingress, with CMDR William Rutledge and Leona Marietta Snyder:











Pay attention to the logos on the uniforms . . .









Rockwell International helped build all the Apollo Saturn Vs along with lunar landers etc.:









Pay attention to the patch/logo here:






I think it is this USAF patch when I went searching for a possible match. The shape looks USAF, and the inside desgn looks like the best match to me. I went through many websites of USAF patches until I found this and what I think is a match:






Here it is in stereopairs:







To me the patch on the uniform is a very good indication that the worker is an Airforce Systems Command employee. You have 3 things going on here NASA (official NASA logo), Rockwell International (logo on back of white overalls), and possible Airforce Systems Command patch on front of the white overalls. If this is true, then this is indication of USAF involvement. Weren't the Apollo missions all NASA? Was the USAF ever involved officially? As the story goes we definately know Apollo 20 was USAF and launched from Vandenburg as the story goes. Is this evidence of that? Perhaps.

One more thing. William Rutledge "retiredafb" broke this story to the World on April 1st, 2007. That is a very curious date. The history of Airforce Sytems Command is very interesting. It was renamed AFSC on April 1st, 1961. Did William Rutledge pick April 1st to break the story as a clue to the identity of the control and the overseers of Apollo 20? That the mission was mostly controlled under the close secret guidance of the US AFSC?





Note the short official history taken from a USAF history website discussing US AFSC. Note the rename date of April 1st, 1961:





I think that NASA could easily verify this Apollo mission if they wanted to. If it is another official Apollo mission, then identify it and indicate all people in the image. What Apollo mission was this if not apollo 20? When was this taken? Who exactly are these people in the image? What are their names?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:33am PT
Saturn required leviathan ground support for assembly, rollout, and launch. You just can't hide or squirrel away an organization like that anywhere but in the movies. Operating carriers requires similarly large support organization and basing arrangements and no carrier ever made or converted in that era could do a sea-based Saturn launch. And you'd never be able to cover it up even if you could build one.

And hell, I checked you out and you're legit on the compsci front, but then are you telling me you also believe this ark on the moon business with what you know about our imagining capabilites? The LROC runs at half-meter / pixel resolution and can pick up Apollo artifacts - doesn't it seem a bit odd we wouldn't image an alien ark which would come in at what, 10k x 1.6k or so pixels?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:37am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:38am PT
I know enough of the players to think it would have leaked out big time.

Tom, isn't it possible that it did leak out to you, or more likely that it happened and that you were a KEY PLAYER, but that they BRAIN-WASHED you so you won't remember? You would have to agree that this is THEORETICALLY POSSIBLE. You can not disprove this.

We may be dealing with the PRINCIPAL CULPRIT here! It is theoretically possible.


And why build some more of these incredibly expensive birds, when we have at least three more of them sitting around as museum pieces??

But Tom, maybe that is what "they" WANT us to believe?

I also have reason to believe that much of what NASA does is just a cover-up.

It doesn't have to be a good reason, or even a rational reason--you have reason to believe. This just confirms it!!!!





















































(Conspiracy theorizing is fun!)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:38am PT
Klimmer, I've been on Vandenberg and there was never a Saturn launch capability there - ever. And you couldn't launch a Saturn from Vandenberg without the entire west coast knowing about it let alone the entire LA basin and places like Santa Barbara and Solvang. Ask Tom if he thinks you could achieve a stealth Saturn launch out of Vandenberg even if the facilities were there. Outlandishly ridiculous in every single respect.

Forget about fuzzy pictures of patches and of guys getting into capsules - we're talking about hiding one of these events:


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:39am PT
Apparently in the case of Klimmer, it will be necessary to smack him with a 4 x 8 instead of a mere 2 x 4. Oh well, it's for his own good. A new angle for him to see 'angels'.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:42am PT
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:45am PT
Whoo, this is totally loaded. I think it is time to leave and let the government take over this conversation.
Cheers
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:46am PT
GC, the base photo isn't Amundsen-Scott at the South Pole.

The NASA link doesn't click through because of the tildes--cut and paste it into your browser. He's at the South Pole station. (I'm not kidding.) THAT should give the conspiracy theorists something to think about.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:47am PT
This would blow Klimmer's mind.
http://greyfalcon.us/German%20UFOs.htm
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:49am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:52am PT
MH, the base photo is circa 2005
http://dougleen.com/ontheroad/category/antarctica/page/2/

Edit: You deleted the post I was responding to.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:54am PT
One of GC's early climbing-related posts to SuperTopo.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=276456&msg=277549#msg277549

Seems to have more to say about climbing, and much more to say about reality, than some people here.

Yeah, sorry, I deleted a post. Maybe it will become a trend.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:54am PT
Hey granite can you get me a job down there at the NSA? I fast @ C&P.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:56am PT
Also, space launches leave some serious chemtrails.

Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:04am PT
Whoo, I've been on the dixie hwy. True story. Went to south FL to see the Dalai Lama.

Edit : hey check it out there are 2 chemtrails (i doint like to call them that) in the sky
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:04am PT
Of course, Clyde Minaret is, strictly speaking, not granite.


Wonder, if I got you a job here, that would mean less overtime for me. Also, we are a union shop. You'd have to score a Illuminati membership first.



Klimmer wrote:
One more thing. William Rutledge "retiredafb" broke this story to the World on April 1st, 2007. That is a very curious date.

Yes, April 1st is known as April FOOL'S Day -- sometimes referred to as All Fools' Day, April 1st is not a legal holiday, but is widely recognized and celebrated as a day which tolerates practical joke and general foolishness. The day is marked by the commission of good humoured hoaxes and other practical jokes of varying sophistication on friends, family members, teachers, neighbors, work associates, and others with the aim to embarrass the stupid and naive.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:05am PT
I truly believe that Klimmer is one of the nephilim, and you can't prove that I'm wrong. He is the anti-Jeebus, the archenemy, Satan incarnate, sent here with his minions to tempt, vex and mislead us. Apage satanas!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:10am PT
He is the anti-Jeebus, the archenemy, Satan incarnate, sent here with his minions to tempt, vex and mislead us.

I'd like to see him even TRY to disprove this! It's a very possible explanation. Of course, another explanation is that he's just BAT-SH#T CRAZY.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:14am PT
sorry, but those don't look like any spacesuit that i am familiar with, not that i am the ultimate expert on them. (engineering a space suit is a really big deal)

it sort of looks like the white room on the capsule entry platform, but not enough equipment hanging around. it sort of looks like a re-creation by someone who has seen the real thing, but didn't understand what they were looking at. so perhaps it was the air force!...lol

yes, you would hear a saturn launch all the way to nevada and new mexico

yes, i think we are all brainwashed and genetically engineered.

question is what independent intellectual and spiritual capabilities do we retain independent of external meddling (i.e. intelligent design...lol)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 03:16am PT
If Apollo 20 did indeed launch from Vandenburg Launch Pad 6, it is surrounded by coastal foothills and can not be seen from the nearest town Lompoc. It was supposedly launched at night (both Apollo 19 and 20), under the cover of darkness.

Vandenburg AFB is fairly large. Plenty of cover. The MOL project already prepped Launch Pad 6, prior to 1976. In the book, Riding Rockets, Mike Mullane talked in detail about Vandenburg and how they had redone Launch pad 6 for the Space Shuttle. Even set-up the shuttle and images were taken of it standing on launch ready to launch. It was pretty much finished. It was to launch the shuttle into Polar Orbit for classified USAF missions. But the shuttle disaster cancelled it from launching from California.

The point is you can launch massive rockets from Vandenburg and as Rokjox has indicated many a large rocket launching satellites and other classified launches into polar orbit have taken place. Vandenburg even now is out of the way enough for many a launch to go unnoticed.

You are being dishonest to say we know about every launch out of Vandenburg. Many go unnoticed. All are detectable, but doesn't mean anyone outside of those launchs are paying attention.

Remember, the USSR was supposedly involved with Apollo 20, so if true, they weren't gonna squawk about a Saturn V launching from Vandenburg.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/facility/vafb-over.htm






compare the following images with those from supposively of Apollo 20.


Apollo 11:




This is Apollo 12:




This mission? Not sure which one this is:





Looks very much the same but then again different. Then again it is a different mission. Same spacesuits for this phase of the ingress process though. And same helmets.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:25am PT
Granite quote

"We planned to do the climb and the hike out and the long drive back home all in the same "day." It got dark soon after we reached the talus so we spent the night hiking out and driving back. We got stuck in morning rush hour traffic on our way back into town."

got any pics?

.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=276456&msg=277549#msg277549
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:25am PT
No Vandenberg launches of any kind go unnoticed. And in particular, when you launch a Saturn, they didn't stay behind hills or hedgerows for long. Again, there is no way to do a stealth launch of any kind from Vandenberg, especially not a Saturn, shuttle, or any other heavy lift vehicle. It's ridiculous to keep saying it, Klimmer - saying it won't make it true. It's like saying there were stealth above ground nuke tests at the Nevada test site that the folks in Las Vegas somehow missed.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:29am PT
This is what it looked like after several hours on the hike out (artist's depiction--to dark to take photos).

Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:33am PT
Oh now I understand
Cheers
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:34am PT




















It really looked more like this. There was no moon. But those other pics are more interesting:

TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:39am PT
a night launch from Vandenberg 'under cover of darkness' would hardly be a cover. it would light up much of southern california.

i don't want to join the rabble mocking you. i am interested and there may well be some substance within this. but i am pretty skeptical. it's just too big an enterprise to conceal practically and smells like mis-direction to me. if that is the case then we can ask what we are being mis-directed about?

i'm not saying impossible, just highly unlikely; particularly considering the availability of practical alternatives. if the russians are involved, then why not a proton launch vehicle from kazakstan?

i think it not unlikely that the usaf has launched manned missions secretly. but it's more likely to be something like an x-20 dyna-soar on an atlas or delta. their big shrouds could accommodate all sorts of vehicles.

also lots of imagery of the backside of the moon comes from the russians. if they knew about big equipment back there, it would probably be for sale on ebay or craig's list

if you have a spare $100M, then space adventures inc can supposedly provide you a soyuz trip around the moon to see for yourself
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:44am PT
smells like mis-direction to me. if that is the case then we can ask what we are being mis-directed about?


You'll have to ask Klimmer that since he is the one doing the mis-directing here.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:47am PT
gc wtf are you talking about? get some control.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:53am PT
the advertised trip involves their usual soyuz launch to station for a two week stay. then a second soyuz sends up an earth departure stage. your soyuz capsule leaves station for rendezvous with the eds. the eds burn sends you off to the moon for an Apollo 8 style loop around and earth return for a screaming re-entry at 24,500 mph. that should be pretty interesting considering that a standard soyuz return from station at 17,000 mph is a seriously rough ride at about 9.5 g. if you do a skipping re-entry and miss by a little bit, you'll be off on your way as a solar orbit casket. not to mention the soyuz habit of landing far from where it was intended.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:01am PT
A Vandenberg night launch of an Atlas rocket - copped from a ufo site no less. Yeah, you could hide one of these babies alright.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:13am PT
The point is there were no 'secret' Saturn launches from Vandenberg or anywhere else because you can't launch one secretly. If a Saturn launched people would have known about it immediately regardless of the mission. That means Apollo 20 never happened because the launch never happened.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:21am PT
Tom, I meant Linda's opinion, an unverifiable speculation about the ET equation. I know she is superb with presenting great evidence, but she must have come to some personal conclusions by now that are unpublished. Perhaps she might share them with you, and then second hand them to us.

Diego Garcia yes, but a Russian launch even more probable. The amount of publicity Apollo 20 gets almost cries out disinformation, why only footage from inside the lunar module, the prize would be closeups of the "Ark". Creating the phony Apollo thesis would be a great cover for the entire operation being russian in origin.

What's not along the same line is things we observe that don't fit our knowledge or anything we know how to do.

Ironically these observations are potentially the golden fleeces of physics, anti gravity, evidence of phasing in and out of higher dimensions. I don't understand why the mockery of such observations. I really wish I could get a physicist to look at some of my night vision footage taken whilst in close quarters with Sasquatch. I am convinced bigfoot is partially a physics problem, and would reveal many things physicists are currently theorizing about, plus more.

I knew a woman whom was a contractor at the underground base in Hawaii. A very deep underground trip to the control room where the computers were. She described a large area at the surface, just below ground level, covered with camo netting. What intrigued her most there was an array of tubes with colored lights blinking skywards. It sounded to me like optical communications systems pointed directly at a geostationary sattelite and then relayed to the mainland in the same fashion. Simple but very secure.

I still have a copy of the northrop? video of a B2 bomber in flight, showing the engines turning bright orange, kinda matches what I've read about dumping ions into them to achieve anti gravity lift or propulsion. The video is now impossible to find on the internet anywhere last i looked.

I have also done some reading on plasma cosmology, pretty damm interesting sh#t regarding planet formation, accretion disc theory is kind of a stretch for me, works for asteroids but come on, gas giants ? nope.

Existence of a 2nd orbiting space station military in nature, is that probable ?

Whew kinda broad spectrum post ...


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:37am PT
Now a Russian heavy lift launch in that era, while not secret in any respect, could have been kept quieter to the broad public. But then it wouldn't have been an Apollo mission because there was no Saturn infrastructure in place fly such an Apollo mission. And if any such mission included a capsule and lander that left Earth orbit you'd be reading about it on wiki.

But anti-gravity - we're not revisiting that one again are we? There are no human anti-gravity technologies. If there were, we wouldn't be talking about Saturn and other heavy lift launches. There's certainly nothing anti-gravity about any aspect of a B2.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 10:00am PT
Why am I the only one to have read the book, Apollo 20: The Disclosure, by Luca Scantamburlo? I posted that ages ago. The entire story is there including all the interviews.

Some of this info was posted to the web by retiredafb and then pulled off quickly.

It wasn't a problem of being seen. If it occured from Vandenburg, and I'm willing to admit that it could be made up, he states in the interview with Luca, that it was unmarked and at a certain distance you wouldn't be able to tell it was a Saturn V from the Vandenburg AFB. The launch was at night in July of 1976. The region was not heavily populated. It would have been seen by someone no doubt, but if it is true that at a certain distance away you wouldn't have been able to tell the differnece between it and another rocket that they launched often and commonly from Vandenburg, then what? What would you be able to say?

"Hey, what launched last night at the Base?"
"Oh some classified USAF mission. Another DoD or NSA satellite placed into orbit. Classified."
What could you say? This happens at Vandenburg now many, many times. You have no clue what was launched only what they tell you.

I sure wish someone else had read the book. I know it isn't all true. It is disinfo mixed with possible incredible truth. What is real and what isn't?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 10:19am PT
sounds like linda is far too busy with things she didn't want to get into to talk to me.

funny things happen to journalists who really journalize. chris bolleyn, making far too many waves, got fired by his newspaper, beat up by suburban chicago police trespassing into his own yard, then wound up in estonia with his whole family under some strange form of house arrest. you don't hear peep from him any more. i'd check on linda regularly, tom, and in person.

so GC would have us think he climbed clyde minaret. i wouldn't trust what you dig up on a forum search. with his hacking skills it ought to be a piece of cake to put a time stamp on something like that. nice touch, though--climb clyde, hike out, drive back to l.a., all in one easy day. almost makes him sound like a real climber ... named peter croft.

klim's right about one thing. all you have to do is classify it. it becomes as secure as a paycheck with benefits.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
Apage satanas!

(Hamie, what's the plural form of "satanas"? There's more than one here.)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
Well, you see I kind of like my cozy little world where some of my neighbors spend their time wondering about when the messiah will return, and others worry about who will make the superbowl, and others are worried about resolving inconsistencies between quantum mechanics and relativity and dark matter and energy and string theory. And my hotshot (or not) friends on taco feel safe ridiculing anyone who nibbles at the edges of what they consider to be ‘reality’. And I worry about finishing the repairs to my roof before the rains come, and still fit in my next trip to see Layton; and wonder about some girl who is blowing away my wildest fantasies as to what is possible playing in the mountains.

I think one of the most amazing things about our ‘society’ is that there are so many people that have a firm grasp on what they consider to be ‘reality’; particularly when you look at all the incredible inconsistencies between people’s belief systems. I also consider it incredible, considering the number of nukes on the planet and the number of fanatic idiots on the planet; that we haven’t had more nuclear events. I find it a rather ordinary consequence of a barbaric society that people show each other so little respect, particularly when discussing alternative views on the nature of the world.

Anyway I promised to be straight with you about what I know; and the wild idiot hunters on the taco already suspect I am an even wilder idiot than is immediately obvious. So here goes on what Linda told me yesterday (the latest update on a lifelong research trail by her):

Linda believes that government insiders are madly withholding their knowledge for fear of upsetting everything that people think they know about ourselves and religions and the sciences; thereby collapsing what little structure is still holding our society together; and their tenuous hold on control of it. The stock market is already upside down over the greed of the kleptocrats. So just imagine how this news will affect confidence in the monetary system. However she also believes that our best chance for survival as a species consists of open revelations and honesty about what is known and working together to fix the overwhelming problems on the planet.

Part of the problem is that these government insiders have built such a network of lies and secrecy over the past 6o years that nobody believes much of anything they say to us anymore. So if they make an attempt at honest revelation on subjects that they have been pushing to be wild speculation; it will just release societal meltdown. That’s why you see instead so many heavily funded SiFi shows.

Linda believes that humans are genetically engineered experiments by entities that have been managing our development for longer than any recorded history. They are not ‘aliens’. These entities are perhaps on the order of a million years ahead of us in their development. She believes we have about as much influence on them as the lab animals in the secret high-tech Stanford dungeon have on the human medical research community. She believes our scientific and technical development progress is based upon little teasers that get dropped in the lap of some of our ‘geniuses’ (I’ve had NASA ‘geniuses’ reveal this to me). One of the results of this force-feeding is that we completely misunderstand some of what we consider to be our own knowledge of the sciences. Linda believes that part of the chaos in our society is created by the fact that not one, but several competing groups are involved: primarily the Nordics, the Little Greys, and the Reptilians. Linda believes that it is trivial for them to take on human form at will, so it is basically impossible to know when you are dealing directly with them. Linda believes that the Nazis are inspired by a Nordics enterprise to create a tall blond super race. And the Nordics are possibly the more sympathetic towards humans out of the three. Basically these creatures have about as much concern for the human race as our medical researchers have for big batches of lab rats. And we have about as much chance of confronting them militarily.

If some of you actually care to do your homework, you will find a huge amount of literature out there where people have researched and published pieces of this puzzle. These taco threads have only tugged on a few loose strings so far...

There! Did I provide enough fodder for the idiot hunters??

Now, back to repairing my roof…

dirtbag

climber
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
I also believe Graniteclimber is a member of S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
wow, good to know someone is on top of all this. Can't believe some of these ST yo-yos ever questioned Linda's credentials.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
Isn't Dick Cheney reptilian as well?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
what linda says unfortunately jibes with what's being said in other quarters, notably the popular david icke. she's probably been marginalized enough that you won't have to worry about her--as much as bill cooper. and yes, mono, that's the buzz on cheney.

wish you hadn't reminded me about my roof--busted my butt trying to cork a small leak a year ago, to no avail.

what i find so comforting, no matter what your take on this, is that the people of the world are perceived to be enough of a threat that all this trouble is being taken for secrecy. i'd put us up one notch from rats in the laboratory.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:50pm PT
Tom,
Inspiring eloquence!

I found this guy spying on us from the fern by the front door.
My wife, having been raised amongst witch doctors in Africa, sensed his
nefariousness. I stood up for him and tried to show him that we bore him
no ill will and, in fact, welcome him and his ilk.

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
Tony, did you find Clyde to be difficult?

The hikeout is downhill fer christ sake.

Did you need to rest overnight in Red's Meadow so you could drive home?

Peter Croft would have done 5 peaks in that time.

I've done it twice and it was frickin easy to get back to the bay area on summit day.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
Carrying on with the "Klimmer is Lucifer" thesis, and referring of course to Milton, the cast of major satanic characters:

Beelzebub - Satan’s second-in-command. Beelzebub discusses with Satan their options after being cast into Hell, and at the debate suggests that they investigate the newly created Earth. He and Satan embody perverted reason, since they are both eloquent and rational but use their talents for wholly corrupt ends. Tony Bird, maybe?

Belial - One of the principal devils in Hell. Belial argues against further war with Heaven, but he does so because he is an embodiment of sloth and inactivity, not for any good reason. His eloquence and learning is great, and he is able to persuade many of the devils with his faulty reasoning. bmacd?

Mammon - A devil known in the Bible as the epitome of wealth. Mammon always walks hunched over, as if he is searching the ground for valuables. In the debate among the devils, he argues against war, seeing no profit to be gained from it. He believes Hell can be improved by mining the gems and minerals they find there. NWO.

Mulciber - The devil who builds Pandemonium, Satan’s palace in Hell. Mulciber’s character is based on a Greek mythological figure known for being a poor architect, but in Milton’s poem he is one of the most productive and skilled devils in Hell. Suggestions?

Moloch - A rash, irrational, and murderous devil. Moloch argues in Pandemonium that the devils should engage in another full war against God and his servant angels. Definitely RJ.

It appears that graniteclimber is an incarnation of the archangel Michael, guarding us with a flaming sword, helped by healyje.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Oct 13, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
Tom said Linda, whom he trusts and has researched this stuff extensively said:
I think one of the most amazing things about our ‘society’ is that there are so many people that have a firm grasp on what they consider to be ‘reality’; particularly when you look at all the incredible inconsistencies between people’s belief systems. I also consider it incredible, considering the number of nukes on the planet and the number of fanatic idiots on the planet; that we haven’t had more nuclear events. I find it a rather ordinary consequence of a barbaric society that people show each other so little respect, particularly when discussing alternative views on the nature of the world.

Anyway I promised to be straight with you about what I know; and the wild idiot hunters on the taco already suspect I am an even wilder idiot than is immediately obvious. So here goes on what Linda told me yesterday (the latest update on a lifelong research trail by her):

Linda believes that government insiders are madly withholding their knowledge for fear of upsetting everything that people think they know about ourselves and religions and the sciences; thereby collapsing what little structure is still holding our society together; and their tenuous hold on control of it. The stock market is already upside down over the greed of the kleptocrats. So just imagine how this news will affect confidence in the monetary system. However she also believes that our best chance for survival as a species consists of open revelations and honesty about what is known and working together to fix the overwhelming problems on the planet.

Part of the problem is that these government insiders have built such a network of lies and secrecy over the past 6o years that nobody believes much of anything they say to us anymore. So if they make an attempt at honest revelation on subjects that they have been pushing to be wild speculation; it will just release societal meltdown. That’s why you see instead so many heavily funded SiFi shows.

Linda believes that humans are genetically engineered experiments by entities that have been managing our development for longer than any recorded history. They are not ‘aliens’. These entities are perhaps on the order of a million years ahead of us in their development. She believes we have about as much influence on them as the lab animals in the secret high-tech Stanford dungeon have on the human medical research community. She believes our scientific and technical development progress is based upon little teasers that get dropped in the lap of some of our ‘geniuses’ (I’ve had NASA ‘geniuses’ reveal this to me). One of the results of this force-feeding is that we completely misunderstand some of what we consider to be our own knowledge of the sciences. Linda believes that part of the chaos in our society is created by the fact that not one, but several competing groups are involved: primarily the Nordics, the Little Greys, and the Reptilians. Linda believes that it is trivial for them to take on human form at will, so it is basically impossible to know when you are dealing directly with them. Linda believes that the Nazis are inspired by a Nordics enterprise to create a tall blond super race. And the Nordics are possibly the more sympathetic towards humans out of the three. Basically these creatures have about as much concern for the human race as our medical researchers have for big batches of lab rats. And we have about as much chance of confronting them militarily.

...what do you believe about all this Tom? Interesting that one of the people I climb with has recounted a good part of that to me. ie, that there are in fact Aliens on our planet, his version has 2 species. The greys and the bigger Greens. His version has the Greens being the "bosses" (I'm paraphrasing), and the Grey's, the little ones that we think of as aliens, are actually the Greens feedstock. Much like sheep.

Furthermore, he says a lot of what actually happens here on earth, isn't visible to the spectrum our eyes can see.

Interesting that a couple of prominent scientists who have seen space time also now believe that there are Aliens. For myself, I want some more evidence, but do not disbelieve it either.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
what actually happens here on earth, isn't visible to the spectrum our eyes can see

Sounds like a conclusion me and a couple of buddies reached at a Grateful Dead show...
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
Tom,

What Linda says makes sense to me. Sounds like a not so sugar coated version of Lou Baldins "A day with an Extraterristrial". His other book "In League with a UFO" is also very good. Linda did an interview with him a while back.

Thanks
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
I must have wanderd into the acid casualty room here.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
I work professionally as a systems thinker and systems management framework designer. I have been clear that it appears to me very difficult to piece together the puzzle, and that in any case we have much to learn. My personal belief system is to learn and try to understand; not to seize on some world view and try to force all the pieces to fit.

When I put together all the pieces that I am pretty sure about, there are some very strange inconsistencies that are very difficult to explain.

However when I think about a lot of what is known to me and try to fit that into what Linda tells me; then a lot of those inconsistencies seem to be resolved by what I understand of her belief system.

(To my knowledge, Linda never touches anything stronger than a glass of wine over a fine dinner...)
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 13, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
And too many good people coming out of the woodwork and risking their credibility by talking about what would otherwise be ridiculous malarky.


You assume that good people can't be fooled into thinking ridiculous things.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
Begone, Moloch!
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
Here's some wild stuff I found on: http://www.librarising.com/

The Grand Conspiracy

These Illuminati families completely know the agenda of these friendly Galactic Federation aliens who have come to our shores to support this planet into a better future. But these Illuminati families worked for evil and bad aliens called Zeta Grey aliens, these aliens have been eradicated by the Galactic Federation in the past few years. These little Grey Aliens did genetic manipulations on Earth humans and worked closely with the American Government through the auspices of the Illuminati. The Zeta Grey aliens in turn worked for the Reptoid aliens who had a base on the moon which used psychotronic weaponry on this planet.

http://www.librarising.com/conspiracy/grandconspiracy.html
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
Boy do I feel naive. All these years I thought that this was just a silly TV show with bad sets and a too-small budget for costumes. Based on Tom's post I now realize it was an attempt to get humanity ready for the big revelation about the Lizard Rulers.


Reptoid aliens who had a base on the moon which used psychotronic weaponry on this planet.

Based on this thread, you have to believe that this above statement is true and you might suspect that their psychotronic weapons give them a little trouble now and then. Instead of mind control of the humans, they just stir up the brain a little bit and leave them confused and paranoid.

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 03:36pm PT
Why worry about disinfo agents when there are authors like Linda around who believe in reptilian aliens/humans?

Or do you think Linda is a disinfo agent too, RoKjox?
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
Illuminati reptoid moon bases and reptilian/nordic/grey aliens who can take human form sound equally kooky to me.

One is disinfo and the other is not?
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
The phenomenon EXIST

The PERCEIVED phenomenon exists. The interpretation is something entirely different.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
Linda has written extensively on everything that I've quoted from her. She's not keeping secrets; although she has told me some interesting stories that she hasn't published, because she hasn't been able to document the events. If you really want to know about this stuff, you should get her books. They are very thorough, with lots of high quality pictures and scans of many secret government documents with names, dates, places, and events.

You have no idea the shear volume of verifiable evidence she has gathered. It's easy to be a naysayer when you don't really know enough to evaluate what you do or don't know about it.

There was a time when I was very concerned by lack of physical evidence for some of the things she was telling me. That is no longer the case; there is lots of real evidence that you can walk up and touch. The only thing actually not available to us ordinary mortals is the ships and their inhabitants.

And note again, Linda feels that at least some of them are not aliens at all; but even more native to this planet than we are.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
Hard to mis-interpret a UFO shutting down a missile silo.


LMAO! now in your small mind it is proof?!?! LMAO some more....

isn't there a forum for fifth graders that is missing you?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 13, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
Tom wrote:

Linda believes that government insiders are madly withholding their knowledge for fear of upsetting everything that people think they know about ourselves and religions and the sciences; thereby collapsing what little structure is still holding our society together; and their tenuous hold on control of it.

Finally now have answers resolved on why we have spent/spend all our time arguing and protesting: Gays, “Don’t ask, Don’t tell”, gay marriages, evolution and also abortion. Look at all the time and monies spent; ending up in the Supreme Court, rule on it, out of the Supreme Court, back in the Supreme Court again. You would think that we would be over this stuff long ago.

Questions that a Politician must address before getting into office that are involved in influencing public policy and decision making or people who seek these positions. One other: “Are you currently or have in the past cheat/cheating on your wife”.

Couldn't figure it out but now know why.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
like tom, i've had a hint of confirmation in the world i know of, in my case a childhood friend reportedly becoming an illuminatus. he had gone into the navy, served as an officer, and then apparently got the "call" to be an insider. it drove a real wedge between him and his brothers and involved bugging and helicopter buzzing of their rural home at the time of the supposed induction. these reports are all second-hand, but supposedly he told his family "the illuminati are good". if i get a little more footloose someday, i may look this mofo up and twist his arm in a dark alley.

don't know if there are any dan brown fans here, but i find his novels an interesting dance on the margins of all this material. like a moth, he spends more and more time in the flame. da vinci code, angels and demons, digital fortress, deception point. the thing that raised my eyebrows is that his next novel--guaranteed bestseller on the heels of the record-breaking da vinci code--has been suppressed, rewritten, and is now being released, six years late, under a different title to rather negative reviews. the subject? the masonic order. even healthy human greed is subject to being yanked by these puppet strings.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 06:56pm PT
Tony,

I've watched the movies. Scary stuff. I'm sure he dances around the truth and gets a little too close for many on the inside. Sure it is fiction, but there are some things that are not. Hidden truth wrapped in lies. Very interesting stories.


For everyone,

You know I do not mind talking about contraversial topics. Why not? What is there to be afraid of? If you don't believe any of it, ignore it and let it go. Let people wonder, ponder, and ask questions. No reason to get in their face and ridicule. No harm. No reason to get all bent out of shape. Let it go. Maybe they are just brainstorming publically trying to wrestle through big questions regarding their World view.

Now, many others have brought up contraversial topics on this thread. It hasn't been just me. You won't ever see me or hear me poking fun about it. It is OK to think outside the box. Clearly there are incredible things out there that we are just starting to come privy too and get close to understanding. Who knows what we will learn?


For me though, no matter what . . . I will always have my rock. I have my anchor. I have my hope. It gives me great comfort. I'm not afraid.

(As go-b posted in another thread, I'll post it here.)


Luke 21:25, “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”



Reality is truly wonderfully bizarre and I look forward to learning the truth of all matters.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 13, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
2 more questions for Tom: Does Linda believe our conscious self to a distinct and separable entity from our physical bodies ? How is Linda being financed ?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Tom,

I have one question for Linda. Well ok a series of questions but all relevant to one theme. What does she think about the apparent Mothership on the backside of the Moon?

Does she think that it is real? That something could indeed be there?
And if so, has she heard about it from others perhaps some of her inside contacts? What is the scoop?

Does she not know, but wonders about it like we do?

Does she think that it is total bunk and complete disinfo?


I would like to know her opinion, one way or the other. Thanks.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
one problem with linda's scenario is lack of archaeological evidence. of course, you can always argue that the evidence is suppressed. but current anthropology has the human race evolving through a 6-million-year departure from our very close relatives, the chimpanzees. there are so many fossil hominids inbetween: taungs, australopithecines, neanderthals. and not much evidence of a superior race, a mere million years ahead of us, skyrocketing past everyone else with technology that breaks into ulterior dimensions and comes back basically to harrass and molest us lowly four-dimensional guinea pigs.

i'm afraid linda may be the victim of the kind of unschooled theorizing that involved bill cooper with jordan maxwell and also led to that notorious production, zeitgeist. hard science needs to appreciate some of the softer sciences when it ventures into this territory.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
What does she think about the apparent Mothership on the backside of the Moon?

klimmer does your head hurt?











TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:09pm PT
" Oct 13, 2010 - 04:01pm PT
2 more questions for Tom: Does Linda believe our conscious self to a distinct and separable entity from our physical bodies ? How is Linda being financed ? "

I haven't discussed either question with her recently, but I'm pretty sure she does believe our conscious self to be a distinct and separable entity from our physical bodies. I do believe this myself from direct personal experience.

Linda's finances have evolved over time and I certainly don't know all the details. As a young woman she was directly employed as an investigative TV reporter. Her 'Strange Harvest' shows were a hit and led to her receiving a great deal of unsolicited material.

This led to doing an HBO special on some of this material. Then during pre-production; two USAF officers approached her in uniform at her home and offered her the opportunity to be the spokesperson for releasing all the USAF information on UFOs; and they showed her a bunch of material that they were willing to have on the show. Linda was naturally very excited about this and went back to tell HBO about it. HBO got very excited and decided to turn it into a big prime time series. Then HBO contacted the two USAF officers at Kirtland AFB and were told that: yes, they knew and respected Linda's work; but had never talked to her directly. That killed the HBO deal completely (at the time).

Linda's response was to take all her best material and publish it in a high quality coffee table format book with pictures and documents. In that time period someone anonymously started sending her some of the same material that the USAF officers had showed her. She published it very quietly herself. Even the printer did not get to see the material she was printing. Then she sent copies to about a hundred close friends before anyone realized what she was doing. I took her out to dinner shortly after the books came off the press and heard the story and was given an autographed copy. She paid for this by mortgaging her house. The book was obviously a hit and I think has now gone through multiple printings.

She has become something of a star from all of this and is in great demand worldwide on talk shows and TV investigative reports, as a conference speaker, producer and writer; which all produce sources of income. She has become known within the black programs as a safe person to contact; as she is strictly honorable in keeping the trust of her sources. She is currently working on her fifth book in a series and also another of many documentaries. Although very popular in this country, she is even more so overseas.

She was even hired by Nelson Rockefeller to investigate the truth behind all the stories about his family (and no, I don't know how that turned out! There's a limit to how much material we can cover in our conversations...lol!)

Edit: Linda has told me about lots of unusual activity on the moon, including the Apollo 11 sightings before I knew Buzz. I don't begin to recall everything she's told me over the years. Get her books... Buzz is pretty touchy and I don't want to test my level of friendship with him. He is a devote Catholic and became an alcoholic after Apollo. So he won't touch anything that questions his credibility. If Linda told me about the great arc, I don't recall. Perhaps I'll ask her next time. Or perhaps she has found time to lurk here and will answer up.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:10pm PT
try this klim,

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:17pm PT




Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:25pm PT











Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
whaddaya think, fellers, hawkeye = graniteclimber?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:33pm PT
i'm very glad this is still fun for you...
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:36pm PT
Yep, it's a fun thread alright.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
tony, i never met GC. did the aliens unleash him too? he must be form a different planet than i....perhaps i can communicate with him via alienbook...maybe i found another friend!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 08:56pm PT
"one problem with linda's scenario is lack of archaeological evidence."

very good question and i don't know the answer to that. Perhaps because no bones left laying around?? but be careful when you say lack of archaeological evidence, because:

i also don't know the answers to Thor Heyerdahl's investigations of Easter Island in 'Aku Aku'

or the age of Sphinx

or how the advanced stone carvings of Gobekli Tepe were done 12,000 years ago without any known tools (prior to building the city and establishing agriculture) and then carefully buried to preserve it

or the detailed 40,000 year Hopi oral history

or why the Zuni language in New Mexico appears to have evolved from ancient Hebrew
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
the bush era....






here klimmer, i bet the alines read this one...


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
that's what they all say, hawk, but it's okay with me--all part of the fun here.

think about it for a minute, cintune. a lot of people believe in god, in jesus, mother mary and the whole bunch. all that stuff's generally kept in its place, which is basically church on sunday.

but jesus and mother mary come and go a lot, making all sorts of personal appearances, just like aliens. st. francis, st. anthony, st. margaret mary, st. catherine of siena, st. bernadette, to name just a few. then there's the whole business of stigmatism--if you want to read some creepy stuff, read up on padre pio. catholics grow up with this stuff, protestants get to stick to their bibles, hear about damnation, try to behave themselves. simple religion. bully for them.

if you go to that little town in yugoslavia, you got mary talking practically all the time to several people who say they see her, and nobody else does. they seem to have convinced a whole raft of faithful about it. my religious mom dragged my nonreligious dad there in the 80s and he came back saying he found the people very credible. the catholic church has a whole "science" devoted to this recurrent phenomenon, "maryology". for me, it's the same stuff that aliens are made of. not sure what it is, but it's not just imagination. some commentators say the lourdes experience was very much like group witnessing of ufos.

these events, however they're engendered, have powerful results. jehovah witnesses, seventh day adventists, all part of the scene in our western cities, supposedly got started through remarkable ufo-type events in the 19th century. i wouldn't be surprised if the same sort of thing happened to joseph smith. perhaps they come from human imagination, coupled with desire, perhaps there's something more to it.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:19pm PT
Well, that was Carl Jung's take on the whole phenomenon anyway. Space aliens were just new and improved angels and devils, projections of our unconscious minds retooled to better suit the modern world.
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:32pm PT
An unconscious mind can not project.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
Oh yes it can.
WBraun

climber
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:45pm PT
Since the brain is a lump of matter, it does not have independent power with which to act.

The mind is never unconscious.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 13, 2010 - 09:50pm PT

Well, maybe you should read Jung to get at his meaning then. He was pretty intrigued by the Vedanta, had a huge fascination with mandalas. All in all a pretty trippy dude.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 10:42pm PT
Mike Bolte, please be honest enough to not misrepresent what I said.

I have made it very clear that I don't know what to believe in this swamp of unusual phenomena and intentional disinformation. Perhaps it is unpatriotic to even be interested in what might be the truth in these things. If so, we share in that mud slinging contest. There are no clean faces in a mud slinging contest.

I related to you some of Linda's research and told you that I respect her.

It seems you think there is some sub-class of humans who believe in mythology. The size of that sub-class is highly negotiable, depending upon your point of view.

In the face of uncomfortable information, you even grasp at straws trying to say that I am a myth. Do you want to meet for lunch and compare my face with the picture on my federal id?

I think you have been deluded into the thinking that the commonly accepted reality is real (as if there really is a commonly accepted reality).

I do my best to share that delusion with you; in the face of an avalanche of confusing information.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
You know after all the name calling and "mud slinging" subsides I just come back to this -- the reality that there is something intelligently designed that is massive on the backside of the Moon . . .

Yes, it challenges everyone, but there it is . . .


(Has anyone out there is SuperTopo-landia viewed these in stereo besides myself? So who has done so? Fess-up.)


Official NASA Apollo 15 stereopair:






Official NASA Apollo 17 stereopairs:









"Unofficial" NASA Apollo 20 stereopair:







Official NASA Apollo 15 on the left, and "Unofficial" NASA Apollo 20 image on the right. This is a stereopair and it matches. Background detail matches. Crater detail matches. Rock fall detail matches. Lunar rock detail matches. Mothership detail matches. Seems to me a perfect match all around:








"unofficial" Apollo 20 fly-over stereopairs:














Has anyone else seen the gold-like foil or mylar wreckage on the ground (the Lunar regolith) scattered around near the "Mothership" that CMDR William Rutledge talks about in an interview? You can see it in the above fly-over stereopairs.


Take a look-see with a stereoscope.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
Well, by the topsy-turvy standards of Klimmer and his minions (they're clearly Legion), it's now proven that he is the anti-Jeebus, the archenemy, Satan incarnate, sent here with his minions (see below) to tempt, vex and mislead us. Apage satanas!
They can't prove that it's untrue, which must mean that it's true. They haven't even tried.

I can't quite figure out the Klimmer-FatTrad-LEB connection, but Dafty admits that he's evil (a fine bit of dissimulation), and LEB must be one of the nephilim.

Beelzebub - Tony Bird, maybe?

Belial - bmacd?

Mammon - NWO.

Mulciber - Suggestions?

Moloch - Definitely RJ.

It appears that graniteclimber is an incarnation of the archangel Michael, guarding us with a flaming sword, helped by healyje.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 13, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
Klimmer, those stereo pictures are intriguing. Can you provide detailed source information?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
Tom,

Here was the original post with NASA sources for Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 images that overlap sufficiently to make stereopairs.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1272047#msg1272047

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1274285#msg1274285


The Apollo 20 images are from retiredafb's films that he has posted and I took screen shots and created stereopairs from those successive screen shots.

http://revver.com/u/retiredafb/


Cached:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:DWARA2BXYUUJ:revver.com/u/retiredafb/+retiredafb&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 13, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
So we've settled that Klimmer is really Lucifer (both names have an "e"! and an "l"! and an "r"!), with his minions and acolytes following along. Sowing confusion, vexation and grief amongst the righteous such as Dr. F, graniteclimber, and yours truly. It was all forecast in Revelations.

I'm pretty sure that Dick Cheney is the anti-Christ. The reptilian glare, and lack of heartbeat, pretty much prove it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 12:03am PT
MH,

I use the word of GOD and tell you a truth . . .


Isaiah 5:20 (KJV)
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
http://bible.cc/isaiah/5-20.htm


Proverbs 17:15
"Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent--the LORD detests them both."
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:08am PT
Exactly! Well, I'm glad you admitted that - your quotes apply perfectly to your situation.

Now what you've repented, what will you do to atone for your evils? Or are we going to have to go all exorcist on you?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:14am PT
MH,

are Canucks this crazy?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:31am PT
Mental health law isn't my field, and here as in the US people are free to believe what they want to, however irrational and absurd it is, or just be batshit crazy like klimmer - as long as they don't pose a threat to themselves or others. The paranoid fantasy streak in US culture and history seems much more conspicuous than such as we have here. There are a few people with fantasies like Klimmer's, but they're pitied by the kind and laughed at by others.

Except in the case of anti-Zionists and their fellow travellers, a conspiracy theory that we don't tolerate.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:38am PT




WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:38am PT
MH

This means that you are claiming to be sane.

But it's already confirmed that you are bat sh'it crazy yourself by declaring yourself sane.

You have no real clue what true sanity is.

Just pure mental speculations based on the mental speculators before you.

You're playing a dangerous game with your own self ....

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:43am PT














Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:45am PT
We'll let the jury sort out whether klimmer, rokjox, go-B, and the other local crackpots, religious fanatics and conspiracy theorists are nuts or not. Taking the fifth may not help them much at this point.

Edit: Doug has a good point.
nature

climber
Whereverland....
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:48am PT
The Jury isn't out.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:53am PT
You have no real clue what true sanity is.

MH, I wouldn't worry to much about anything Werner says.



They never went .......to the moon.
http://dev.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=157391&msg=157396#msg157396


They can not go to the moon, forbidden, in their present state of consciousness. The moon "Chandraloka" is 800,000 miles past the sun.

Therefore, even if we accept the modern calculation of 93 million miles as the distance from the earth to the sun, how could the "astronauts" have traveled to the moon--a distance of almost 94 million miles--in only 91 hours (the alleged elapsed time of the Apollo 11 moon trip)?

Rahu, maybe they went, if anywhere.
http://dev.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=157391&msg=157415#msg157415


No no. I am referring to the real moon you are seeing with your eyes which you are describing. You and most everyone else will reject my statements as absurd, even so far as thinking I'm nuts/insane (hahahaha), yes I know it sounds impossible.

Do not fear

You can reject

We will see ........ if the Vedas tell the real truth. (So far they have, the original information on how to split the atom was found there, in the Vedas)
http://dev.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=157391&msg=157432#msg157432



Nope

Moon is 800,000 miles past the sun.

They never went!

93 million miles to the sun plus 800,000 more to the moon,

Hoax!, you've been owned .....

Now there is an invisible planet called Rahu that is aproximately the distance 286,000 miles. this is the real planet that causes the eclipse that we see.

Rahu planet comes in front of the full moon , and thus a lunar eclipse takes place.
http://dev.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=157391&msg=157564#msg157564


Werner thinks the moon landings were staged. Klimmer thinks that there were secret missions to the moon. They should get together--climb Zodiac together. LOL.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:55am PT
Klimmer is not crazy, and he doesn't deserve the kind of treatment he is getting here. Some people here don't seem to have progressed emotionally since learning to be bullies in the grade school playground.

The material he is finding is at least interesting and worth looking into.

I am not endorsing any particular material and find all the bible references boring and annoying; but not nearly as annoying as the defaming personal attacks on him.

The more serious and persistent attacks on him seem to be coming from funded disinformation efforts - which only indicates to me that he is getting too close to some sensitive information.

These serious attacks seem to activate the childish bully personality aspects of some otherwise relatively civilized individuals; to their discredit. This has gone well beyond the fun stage to a point that could justify legal retaliation. My suggestion to these people is to wise up and grow up.

I want to say for the record that I think that any of you who are working on government disinformation campaigns should be completely ashamed of yourselves and should change your tune. Your time has passed!

The American public no longer believes much of anything that is said by government agencies, never mind whether the topic is particularly controversial. Just look at the BP oil spill or Katrina. You don't have to go into controversial subjects to find the distrust. We desperately need honesty in government and industry. If you are reading this and you work on funded disinformation projects; my advice is to change careers before the general public gets completely fed up and goes witch hunting!

I realize that some of you get sucked in by disinformation. To you I say, just be careful what you believe and who you are willing to listen to. That includes me. I try to be straight with what I say. If I get caught making a mistake, I'll own up to it. And notice that I use my own name to back up whatever I say. I don't think we can take seriously all the noise from anonymous sources. If you have something worth saying, back it up with your real name.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:55am PT


INSANE. One deprived of the use of reason, after he has arrived at the age when he ought to have it, either by a natural defect or by accident. Domat, Lois Civ. Lib. prel. tit. 2, s. 1, n. 11.

Source: Bouvier's Law Dictionary, Revised 6th Ed (1856)



Insane \In*sane"\, a. [L. insanus. See In- not, and Sane.]

1. Exhibiting unsoundness or disorder of mind; not sane; mad; deranged in mind; delirious; distracted. See Insanity, 2. [1913 Webster]

2. Used by, or appropriated to, insane persons; as, an insane hospital. [1913 Webster]

3. Causing insanity or madness. [R.]

[1913 Webster]

Or have we eaten on the insaneroot That takes the reason prisoner ? --Shak. [1913 Webster]

4. Characterized by insanity or the utmost folly; chimerical; unpractical; as, an insane plan, attempt, etc. [1913 Webster]

I know not which was the insane measure. --Southey. [1913 Webster]

Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48



156 Moby Thesaurus words for "insane": abnormal, absurd, apish, asinine, at fever pitch, batty, bedlamite, befooled, beguiled, bereft of reason, besotted, bonkers, brainless, brainsick, buffoonish, buggy, bughouse, bugs, certifiable, cockeyed, crackbrained, cracked, crackers, cranky, crazed, crazy, credulous, cuckoo, daffy, daft, dazed, delirious, deluded, demented, deprived of reason, deranged, disordered, disoriented, distraught, dizzy, doting, dotty, dull, dumb, eccentric, fanatical, fatuitous, fatuous, febrile, feverish, flaky, flighty, fond, fool, foolheaded, foolish, frantic, frenetic, frenzied, fruity, fuddled, furious, futile, gaga, goofy, gulled, hallucinated, hectic, hysteric, idiotic, imbecile, imbecilic, inane, inept, infatuated, irrational, irresponsible, kinky, kooky, loco, loony, loopy, ludicrous, lunatic, mad, maddened, maniac, maniacal, manic, maudlin, mazed, mental, mentally deficient, meshuggah, mindless, moon-struck, moronic, neurotic, non compos, non compos mentis, nonsensical, not all there, not right, nuts, nutty, odd, of unsound mind, off, out of it, overanxious, overdesirous, overeager, overenthusiastic, overzealous, perfervid, potty, psycho, psychoneurotic, psychotic, queer, quirky, reasonless, reckless, ridiculous, round the bend, sappy, scatterbrained, schizo, schizoid, schizophrenic, screwy, senseless, sentimental, sick, silly, spaced out, spacy, stark-mad, stark-staring mad, strange, stupid, tetched, thoughtless, touched, ultrazealous, unbalanced, unhinged, unrealistic, unsane, unsettled, unsound, wacky, wandering, wet, wild, witless

Source: Moby Thesaurus II by Grady Ward, 1.0



insane adj
1: afflicted with or characteristic of mental derangement; "was declared insane"; "insane laughter" [ant: sane]
2: very foolish; "harebrained ideas"; "took insane risks behind the wheel"; "a completely mad scheme to build a bridge between two mountains" [syn: harebrained, mad]

Source: WordNet (r) 2.0



Insane \In*sane"\, a. [L. insanus. See In- not, and Sane.]

1. Exhibiting unsoundness or disorded of mind; not sane; mad; deranged in mind; delirious; distracted. See Insanity, 2.

2. Used by, or appropriated to, insane persons; as, an insane hospital.

3. Causing insanity or madness. [R.]

Or have we eaten on the insaneroot That takes the reason prisoner ? --Shak.

4. Characterized by insanity or the utmost folly; chimerical; unpractical; as, an insane plan, attempt, etc.

I know not which was the insane measure. --Southey.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:56am PT
MH

Trying to sidestep your own feeble deficiencies and pointing them at klimmer rocky go-bee et all is a sure sign you're bat sh'it crazy yourself.

It won't work for you.

Kill your "self" and they'll all disappear and you'll be the one left standing at the door looking at your own self.

Whether they're crazy or not is not the point.

The point is in the projector ......

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:59am PT
Klimmer is not crazy, and he doesn't deserve the kind of treatment he is getting here.
He and his fellow travellers post drivel, ad nauseam, and so can't complain about the response. Live by the sword, die by the sword. That's free speech.

Werner: I haven't once claimed to be sane, although by established medico-legal standards I certainly am.
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:05am PT
And so do you.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:06am PT
Tom Cochrane - sane or insane? We report, you decide!

Linda is a more reliable and meticulous researcher than most of the posters here


Linda has published extensively on what she knows. My experience with her tells me to trust her reports. I know very well that she would much rather report on much less controversial subjects. She has been drawn into this area of reporting against her will, out of a sense of duty and honesty and persistence.

So here goes on what Linda told me yesterday (the latest update on a lifelong research trail by her):

Linda believes that government insiders are madly withholding their knowledge for fear of upsetting everything that people think they know about ourselves and religions and the sciences; thereby collapsing what little structure is still holding our society together; and their tenuous hold on control of it. The stock market is already upside down over the greed of the kleptocrats. So just imagine how this news will affect confidence in the monetary system. However she also believes that our best chance for survival as a species consists of open revelations and honesty about what is known and working together to fix the overwhelming problems on the planet.

Part of the problem is that these government insiders have built such a network of lies and secrecy over the past 6o years that nobody believes much of anything they say to us anymore. So if they make an attempt at honest revelation on subjects that they have been pushing to be wild speculation; it will just release societal meltdown. That’s why you see instead so many heavily funded SiFi shows.

Linda believes that humans are genetically engineered experiments by entities that have been managing our development for longer than any recorded history. They are not ‘aliens’. These entities are perhaps on the order of a million years ahead of us in their development. She believes we have about as much influence on them as the lab animals in the secret high-tech Stanford dungeon have on the human medical research community. She believes our scientific and technical development progress is based upon little teasers that get dropped in the lap of some of our ‘geniuses’ (I’ve had NASA ‘geniuses’ reveal this to me). One of the results of this force-feeding is that we completely misunderstand some of what we consider to be our own knowledge of the sciences. Linda believes that part of the chaos in our society is created by the fact that not one, but several competing groups are involved: primarily the Nordics, the Little Greys, and the Reptilians. Linda believes that it is trivial for them to take on human form at will, so it is basically impossible to know when you are dealing directly with them. Linda believes that the Nazis are inspired by a Nordics enterprise to create a tall blond super race. And the Nordics are possibly the more sympathetic towards humans out of the three. Basically these creatures have about as much concern for the human race as our medical researchers have for big batches of lab rats. And we have about as much chance of confronting them militarily.

If some of you actually care to do your homework, you will find a huge amount of literature out there where people have researched and published pieces of this puzzle. These taco threads have only tugged on a few loose strings so far...


The more serious and persistent attacks on him seem to be coming from funded disinformation efforts - which only indicates to me that he is getting too close to some sensitive information.

These serious attacks seem to activate the childish bully personality aspects of some otherwise relatively civilized individuals; to their discredit. This has gone well beyond the fun stage to a point that could justify legal retaliation. My suggestion to these people is to wise up and grow up.

I want to say for the record that I think that any of you who are working on government disinformation campaigns should be completely ashamed of yourselves and should change your tune. Your time has passed!











































(snicker... Tom Cochrane is a government insider--can he prove he's not a giant lizard?)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:07am PT
If all this material is drivel, why are you here wasting your time reading it and attacking the messenger?

insane = persisting in willfully destructive actions

Edit: I wish I was enough of a government insider to be able to tell anyone that I know what's going on; but that is far from the case. I don't even have any particular clearances other than the standard civilian background check. I do know a lot of interesting people, but the only ones I know who have real power and perhaps the inside scoop aren't about to reveal anything without high level security clearances and an official 'need to know' assignment. I've made it clear that I think the black curtain should be drawn back to educate the public.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:10am PT
This has gone well beyond the fun stage to a point that could justify legal retaliation.



Ohhhhhhh! How scared should we be, Mighty Hiker?


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:11am PT
It's a public service, and entertaining, driving out these loonies as the moneychangers were driven out of the temple. (Not that climbing is a religion or SuperTopo its temple...) Besides, as WB knows, to err is human, but to forklift is divine.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:19am PT
The more serious and persistent attacks on him seem to be coming from funded disinformation efforts - which only indicates to me that he is getting too close to some sensitive information.

These serious attacks seem to activate the childish bully personality aspects of some otherwise relatively civilized individuals; to their discredit. This has gone well beyond the fun stage to a point that could justify legal retaliation. My suggestion to these people is to wise up and grow up.

I want to say for the record that I think that any of you who are working on government disinformation campaigns should be completely ashamed of yourselves and should change your tune. Your time has passed!

tom, you are as crazy as klimmer!

we now have a NEW CONSPIRACY!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:22am PT
Tony Bird wrote

Like tom, i've had a hint of confirmation in the world i know of, in my case a childhood friend reportedly becoming an illuminatus. he had gone into the navy, served as an officer, and then apparently got the "call" to be an insider. it drove a real wedge between him and his brothers and involved bugging and helicopter buzzing of their rural home at the time of the supposed induction. these reports are all second-hand, but supposedly he told his family "the illuminati are good". if i get a little more footloose someday, i may look this mofo up and twist his arm in a dark alley.

So Tony Bird apparently claims to believe that there is a supersecret superevil superpowerful society called the "illuminati" that controls the world and he posts under his own name on a public forum that he is against this society and would like to rough up someone who he heard, secondhand, might be in this society?

He either lying about believing in the illuminati or really stupid. Where there are powerful immoral gangs in charge, for example in North Korea, Communist Russia or other dictatorships, we all know what happens to people who say things like that publicly. If he really believed, he'd be too scared to say anything.

And this is his "childhood friend" that he heard things about "secondhand" and he's calling him a "mofo" and planning on "twisting his arm in a dark alley." Maybe Tony needs his own "redneck neighbor" thread about him.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:32am PT
i was wondering if some of you thought you were doing this ridicule as some sort of a public service. i think you are mistaken in that, and you don't know enough to be a debunker, so you just resort to poorly aimed defamation.

so i am seriously interested in discerning the truth in some of these matters. if they are all bunk, i'd really like to know that; and even more importantly know how these stories came about; and why the sources felt it was important to put them out there.

that is why i find Linda so interesting. i know that she really doesn't like this stuff and really works hard to find out the truth. so when she has something to say, i listen carefully; no matter how hard it might be to believe what she thinks she has learned

when someone just hangs around on this thread spouting ridicule, i have to seriously question your motives

graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:33am PT
Tom, I meant Linda's opinion, an unverifiable speculation about the ET equation. I know she is superb with presenting great evidence, but she must have come to some personal conclusions by now that are unpublished. Perhaps she might share them with you, and then second hand them to us.

Diego Garcia yes, but a Russian launch even more probable. The amount of publicity Apollo 20 gets almost cries out disinformation, why only footage from inside the lunar module, the prize would be closeups of the "Ark". Creating the phony Apollo thesis would be a great cover for the entire operation being russian in origin.

What's not along the same line is things we observe that don't fit our knowledge or anything we know how to do.

Ironically these observations are potentially the golden fleeces of physics, anti gravity, evidence of phasing in and out of higher dimensions. I don't understand why the mockery of such observations. I really wish I could get a physicist to look at some of my night vision footage taken whilst in close quarters with Sasquatch. I am convinced bigfoot is partially a physics problem, and would reveal many things physicists are currently theorizing about, plus more.

I knew a woman whom was a contractor at the underground base in Hawaii. A very deep underground trip to the control room where the computers were. She described a large area at the surface, just below ground level, covered with camo netting. What intrigued her most there was an array of tubes with colored lights blinking skywards. It sounded to me like optical communications systems pointed directly at a geostationary sattelite and then relayed to the mainland in the same fashion. Simple but very secure.

I still have a copy of the northrop? video of a B2 bomber in flight, showing the engines turning bright orange, kinda matches what I've read about dumping ions into them to achieve anti gravity lift or propulsion. The video is now impossible to find on the internet anywhere last i looked.

I have also done some reading on plasma cosmology, pretty damm interesting sh#t regarding planet formation, accretion disc theory is kind of a stretch for me, works for asteroids but come on, gas giants ? nope.

Existence of a 2nd orbiting space station military in nature, is that probable ?

Whew kinda broad spectrum post ...

bmacd, remember to breathe!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:35am PT
i have to seriously question your motives

It all works out, Tom.

You question our motives, we question your sanity.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:38am PT
doesn't anyone have a real interest in the subjects under discussion, or is it just too much fun for you children to babble and sling mud around??
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:41am PT
ok so let's discuss sanity a bit, since that seems to be the topic for the evening.

there is clearly a lot of really weird information flying around here. it is not obvious that it is all just noise in the system.

so is it insane to be interested in discussions sorting out truth from fiction?

or is it perhaps insane to attack and ridicule anyone who tries to look at the information?

Edit: and yes i am aware that i am now offering myself as the latest target for your vindictive attacks. i do that because i am sickened by your behavior and foolish enough to think you can actually behave better if you grow up a bit. so we get to see how long i can remain a gentleman in the face of whatever you care to escalate.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:42am PT



























TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:52am PT
graniteclimber that is just more noise

why don't you reveal your identity?

as a show of good faith that you are not just hanging around here trying to be destructive to this thread
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:01am PT
I remember there was a kid of some sort on here awhile ago named Rajmit. He acted alot like GC.
I figure his bosses will eventually pull him out of here because he is a loser and he is really not doing his job very well.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:02am PT






























TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:04am PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:06am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 02:09am PT
GC,

I really do wonder what you are all about? Why linger here and just spew continual ridicule and attacks?

I mean it isn't me anymore but anyone that wants to talk about alternative theories and ideas?

Why are you so threatened by these discussions? All you do is continuously attack. Why not just don't click on these threads and avoid them?

Others question your true intention and I do too. And we all really wonder what kind of climber you possibly could be? Who spends a great amount of time in the college of the great outdoors and the natural world, climbing, doing incredible adventures with good friends, and then comes away with this kind of hate? How does that happen?

Post up a quick climbing resume please . . .

Mine short and sweet (not exhaustive or complete):

Climbing since 1974
Mt. Woodson local starting in about 1976
Rock climbing throughout SoCal
Alpine skier since 1974
Climbed many alpine routes in the Sierra over the years
Routes in Yosemite and Tuolumne (no walls yet)
Whitney 7 times (classic east face included)
NW climbing: Mt. Baker, Mt. Rainer, Mt. St. Helens, Leavenworth rock climbs, Beacon Rock, and more
Climbing in Mexico: Popocatepetl, Baja, Canon Tajo
Europe: Mt. Blanc, Italian Alps near Aosta, Pyrenees
1st ascents in and around San Diego County - small crags
1st ascents in and around Bishop region, and Alabama Hills near Lone Pine
BC skier
Paragliding since 1997

I continue to climb, ski, paraglide, scuba dive although I admit since I have had my 2 kids not getting out as much as I would like :-(


So who are you?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:11am PT


Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:11am PT
Here GC trying to dig his way out of here.


graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:14am PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:14am PT
Agent bmacd, you may stand down for the evening, and await further orders. The "multi-dimension bigfoot" diversion won't be needed.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:20am PT
Hey klimmer, check out the photo that GC posted. Now theres a good topic, the Dumbs. My guess is that is one of the machines that is used to dig them. Lets not get GC going after that so keep it in mind and lets talk about it later.
cheers
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:23am PT































TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:25am PT
Negative campaigning, also known more colloquially as "mudslinging", is trying to win an advantage by referring to negative aspects of an opponent or of a policy rather than emphasizing one's own positive attributes or preferred policies. In the broadest sense, the term covers any rhetoric which refers to an opponent, if only by way of contrast, but can also include attacks meant to destroy an opponent's character, which may veer into ad hominem.

An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise. The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:32am PT
For you GC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzz8jG2SO1Y&feature=related
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 02:54am PT
Here is GC first post at ST:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=270226&msg=270666#msg270666


Seems it wasn't climbing that brought GC into ST but, a discussion on Pat Tillman. You seem to relate to Fattrad very well. Hhhhhmmmmmmmmmm.



Are you by chance a LEO?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:28am PT
hawkeye: tony, i never met GC.

i don't think anyone on here knows him, and the only climbing post we can find from him is some loose talk about clyde minaret. nothing about climbing it, just his schedule for the day. he came here for a pat tilman thread, which is a real nwo subject. he doesn't participate in discussions, just tries to disrupt them with a steady, seemingly unlimited, stream of well-indexed artwork, although he does tend to repeat himself.

MH: Except in the case of anti-Zionists and their fellow travellers, a conspiracy theory that we don't tolerate.

in our country we distinguish between anti-semitism and opposition to zionism, MH. somehow, i don't think all canadians are quite that unsophisticated. you're supposed to be a lawyer?

btw, the contemplation of other dimensions is what they do in advanced physics. for some reason, 11 dimensions seems to be the working number. you and i are not destined to understand such things in our lifetimes, unless, of course, some alien/angel comes along and opens up a short cut. for the long route, advanced calculus is only the beginning.

Yo, GC....

You should get a job.

as tom suggested, he could be working one right now. there is considerable funding available for those willing to attack conspiracy theorists. the stated policy of the obama administration is something called "cognitive infiltration" in order to get people to think the way they ought to, and no better place for that than a blog site.

--------


pate! thought you were staying away from here. into bulemia now, huh? damn, i miss your nuns.


She has become known within the black programs as a safe person to contact; as she is strictly honorable in keeping the trust of her sources ...

She was even hired by Nelson Rockefeller to investigate the truth behind all the stories about his family (and no, I don't know how that turned out! ...)

those are two things i'd like to talk to linda about, tom, especially that first one. in 10 years of newspapering, i learned that that kind of "trust" is not necessarily the hallmark of good journalism. a journalist's first duty is to the public. if keeping secrets might bring out information, so be it, but it doesn't always work that way. "embedded" journalism can be the result, which is a betrayal of the public trust, the only trust worth the trusting.

a journalist is never rewarded for this. it's one of the loneliest professions in the world, and few practice it any more. a good journalist can never be trusted by his or her "sources," and that's exactly the way it ought to be. the courage to disclose must come from the source itself. a good journalist knows to facilitate that, but it becomes a hot stew pot for both and it ain't much fun. too much of the wrong kind of trust will keep a reporter at the bottom, with lower-down sources, sources which prove worthless in the long run. stamina and courage might attract better sources and a good scoop--if the source itself has courage.

nelson rockefeller may have been the best of a bad lot. interesting that he would turn to someone like linda to learn more about his own family.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:45am PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:44am PT
there is considerable funding available for those willing to attack conspiracy theorists.

i think you guys should start YET another conspiracy thread on your thoughts that we are getting paid to attack conspiracy theorists....that is some pretty funny sh!t!!!

you guys got to admit this is a funny cartoon....

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:50am PT
So much paranoia among the conspiracy droids. Goes with the territory.

GC please send me an NSA application for their course in pic posting, the most effective way to piss off the droids, and get them running to CMac.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:58am PT
the modus operandi was established with PNAC. you don't admit it when you're doing it, but you state it ahead of time for all to see. it's how you lull the public to sleep. sweet dreams, fellas.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:09am PT
Tony, I think it is a fine idea for you to talk to Linda. I have introduced other knowledgeable people to her and very much enjoyed listening to the interchange. She knows a lot more about these subjects than anyone else that I know. That especially includes people with high level clearances, because they are kept in the dark with compartmented secret information (CSI) and not allowed to talk to people.

It would probably be a good idea for you to meet me, and perhaps some of us could meet for lunch sometime. Linda is always glad to talk to me, but the challenge is finding time in her schedule, as there are so many demands on her time.

It is important to realize that all the information you want to know is already on the net. The challenge is just understanding what is truth and what is disinformation.

My general theory in life is that the truth will come out so long as you don't just give up.

I very much appreciate the knowledge and expertise that some people bring to this discussion. It's just tiresome wading through the mud from poorly informed and mean spirited people who feel they have to mess up the conversation. However even that is informative in several ways. In a funny sort of way it reveals more than it obscures.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:22am PT




















MisterAnswers

Social climber
Ark on the Moon
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:38am PT
OK listen up everyone: This site and thread was brought to my attention. Mister Answers has reviewed this entire thread and of course has all the answers, including revealing which of you are idiots, which are mentally ill, which are not idiots but are supremely ignorant etc. etc. When I get a few minutes free, I'll get started.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:47am PT
gc is back in fine form; very cool art collection and pretty sophisticated selections

guess we're getting close to understanding something interesting

in my experience with the sciences, you often can't directly observe what you are interested in. however you can determine its nature by effects it causes on other things that you can observe

in working tracking cases you often have lots of tiny bits of data that don't make sense. so you continue collecting data and avoid jumping to conclusions until all the little bits of data basically force you into a conclusion

the disinformation team is obviously very knowledgeable and resourceful
you can tell a lot by just watching what gets them going
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:51am PT
An uncle of a friend of mine from 1970 (I know) was a bird colonel on
Project Blue Book. He told my friend,

"I can't tell you anything but if I could you wouldn't believe it anyway."

That pretty well covers a lot of this, eh?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:56am PT
In Canada, we prosecute Holocaust-deniers. Our Criminal Code prohibits "the willful promotion of hatred against an identifiable group", and it was upheld as constitutional by our Supreme Court, notwithstanding our right to freedom of expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._v._Keegstra
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:01pm PT
the disinformation team is obviously very knowledgeable and resourceful

Wow, just Wow!

And since you guys seem drawn to shiny pics;


kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
Here's a Greasemonkey script that improves the readability of this thread:


graniteclimber - Ojs4PDg9OyU

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1108086/Greasemonkey-could-wipe-that-LEB-off-your-screen-OT

// UserScript
// @name Super Topo LEB Killer
// @namespace Nobody
// @description Hides LEB in supertopo threads
// @include http://www.supertopo.com/*
// @include http://supertopo.com/*
// /UserScript


// You won't see threads started by these usernames:
usernames = new Array("LEB","graniteclimber","killname3","somebody else");

// You won't see posts from these userids (look at their profile link, don't use the comma at the end).
userids = new Array("ODM8NTo8OCc","Ojs4PDg9OyU","anotherid","anotherid");

// main forum page
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if (blah == usernames[q]) {
arrAllrows.style.display = "none";
break;
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// thread page
var prof_str = "supertopo.com/inc/view_profile.php?dcid=";
var arrAllTables = document.body.getElementsByTagName("table");
for (var j=0; j<arrAllTables.length; j++) {
var cellspace = arrAllTables[j].getAttribute("cellspacing");
if (cellspace == "1") {
var arrAllAnchors = arrAllTables[j].getElementsByTagName("a");
for (var i=0; i<arrAllAnchors.length; i++) {
var strHrefName = arrAllAnchors.getAttribute("href");
for (var q=0; q<userids.length; q++) {
if (strHrefName == "http://"+prof_str+userids[q]+",") {
arrAllTables[j-2].style.display = "none";
break;
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if (strHrefName == "http://www."+prof_str+userids[q]+",") {
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TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
so now that we have determined by weight of crowd sourcing that everyone on this thread is nuts; we can go onto the next step of determining who is the most nuts: the nuts interested in the information, or the nuts interested in defaming any nuts interested in the information
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
Tony,

Great find. Very interesting article.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/15/sunstein

Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obama's head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for "overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs."

In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-"independent" advocates to "cognitively infiltrate" online groups and websites -- as well as other activist groups -- which advocate views that Sunstein deems "false conspiracy theories" about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens' faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The paper's abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.



We know this happens. There is considerable effort to do this. Even the FBI would infiltrate Anti-War and Peace Activist groups in the well known program called COINTELPRO, and this continues today.


I should repost the link to the new handbook on "Terrorism," paid for by a grant from the DoJ. Every buzzword we have discussed is in there. Yes, they want to paint everyone who uses these words or anyone who discusses these concepts or ideas, as "Terrorists" who are involved in Criminal Activities.


DoJ Terrorism and Criminal Extremism Terms and Concepts Guide
http://publicintelligence.net/doj-terrorism-and-criminal-extremism-terms-and-concepts-guide/


Here is the actual DoJ download of the Book:

Investigating Terrorism and Criminal Extremism, Terms and Concepts
http://info.publicintelligence.net/DoJTerrorismCriminalExtremismTerms.pdf




Unbelievable. They are really and truly desperate.

No actually, good country loving US citizens who uphold the Constitution and Bill of Rights and abide by the law who want to save our country, just want to know the truth, and we are tired of our government lying and covering-up. Not only that, the World is tired of it.


(Edit: I have an experiment in mind. I have my problem/Observation. I have my hypothesis. I have my experimental design, and I have my prediction for the experimental outcome. Now I just have to do my experiment . . . I'll post the results when I can.)
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
You are right Klimmer.

Clearly anyone who thinks reptilian alien/humans is kooky must be a government loving tool.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
This and related threads would have been much improved by a few Ouch! cartoons.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
ok, i repent!

the common sense crowd knows best

the earth is flat

the sky is a crystal dome with little holes in it that let the light of heaven shine through

angels visit us riding silver disk-shaped chariots from heaven





have i mentioned that we have much to learn?




(i am eager to hear more about your flat earth theories. i'm sure you have fine answers for all the mysteries of the universe that have been troubling me)
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
Isn't this your company, Tom?

Raytheon Co.

Washington, DC: (Mar-15-07) The US Securities and Exchange Commission filed charges against three former Raytheon Co. executives, Franklyn Caine, former chief financial officer; Edward Pliner, former controller; and James Gray, former chief financial officer of Raytheon Aircraft Co. The lawsuit accused them of improper accounting involving Raytheon's commercial aircraft unit. The SEC claimed that Raytheon improperly recognized revenue between 1997 and 1999 on Raytheon Aircraft Co.'s sale of unfinished aircraft through "bill and hold" sales transactions, which led to material overstatements of annual net sales revenue and operating income in 1997 and 1998. The transactions resulted in the failure to recognize between $67 million and $240 million in losses. The three agreed to settle and pay a total $1.5 million. [REUTERS: RAYTHEON ACCOUNTING]
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:22pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
I repeat . . .


You know after all the name calling and "mud slinging" subsides I just come back to this -- the reality that there is something intelligently designed that is massive on the backside of the Moon . . .

Yes, it challenges everyone, but there it is . . .


(Has anyone out there is SuperTopo-landia viewed these in stereo besides myself? So who has done so? Fess-up.)


Official NASA Apollo 15 stereopair:






Official NASA Apollo 17 stereopairs:









"Unofficial" NASA Apollo 20 stereopair:







Official NASA Apollo 15 on the left, and "Unofficial" NASA Apollo 20 image on the right. This is a stereopair and it matches. Background detail matches. Crater detail matches. Rock fall detail matches. Lunar rock detail matches. Mothership detail matches. Seems to me a perfect match all around:








"unofficial" Apollo 20 fly-over stereopairs:














Has anyone else seen the gold-like foil or mylar wreckage on the ground (the Lunar regolith) scattered around near the "Mothership" that CMDR William Rutledge talks about in an interview? You can see it in the above fly-over stereopairs.


Take a look-see with a stereoscope.
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
Is it my imagination, or does the photo show that there is a vagina on the surface of the moon???
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Oct 14, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
You know after all the name calling and "mud slinging" subsides I just come back to this -- the reality that there is something intelligently designed that is massive on the backside of the Moon . . .

Yes, it challenges everyone, but there it is . . .

If there is anything there, Tom must have the close-ups at home in a box in his closet. Next time you are headed up to Santa Cruz or San Jose you should pay him a visit and find out.

























It's probably in a box like this:














Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
Unbelievable. They are really and truly desperate.

No actually, good country loving US citizens who uphold the Constitution and Bill of Rights and abide by the law who want to save our country, just want to know the truth, and we are tired of our government lying and covering-up. Not only that, the World is tired of it.


klimmer, that is an entirely new conspiracy, start another thread will yuh?




Is it my imagination, or does the photo show that there is a vagina on the surface of the moon???

wbw,
that observation only proves that you are the only sane one here and are not a government tool or an alien. i thought i saw some breasts too!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
...yawn...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
Pate, now there is coffee all over the keyboard!
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
That "Mothership" shot looks like it came from someone's home aquarium.
OR

Trad climber
VT
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
How does one deduce that a mothership is in that Photo?
dirtbag

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Active imagination, wishful thinking, conspiratorial mindset, and quite a bit of drugs.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
Ok Klimmer, I have been staring at the cylinder. It could be anything naturally explained such as rockfall, or a piece of not completely broken up meteor impact, or just a piece of rock.

Why does it simply have to be an alien ship?

Why is this your inevitable conclusion? Seriously?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:44pm PT

Gene

Social climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
can't tell you folks how much I appreciate rational, informed, respectful, and data supportable discussions of the absurd.













Why am I posting?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
WHY does the cylinder HAVE to be an alien spaceship?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 14, 2010 - 05:06pm PT
Ok if you notice it says one question free.

Klimmer do not ask a second question: Think you are intelligent to figure out why, Hmmm! Tom you might also think about it.

Attorney gave me this trick a long time ago. When calling an attorney on the phone he will give you one free answer to a question you might want answered, then when you ask the next question, he will say “come in and we'll talk about it “so the trick is have in front of you six or seven attorneys phone numbers or the whole phone book this way "a few thousand".

You will be asking six or seven different questions on the one subject that you're trying to resolve. First question on your list, you call the first attorney, ask your question and he responds, you thank him and hang up. Cross him off your list and that question. Now for different a question on the same subject you call second attorney, he responds, you thank him and hang up…. Third question, fourth different question and so on. This way you had most of your questions asked for free.

Scamming the system and getting free answers.

So I say let's do this the same way with this. Klimmer you call or write e-mail first: Ask your question [The Ark on the moon]remember it, recorded or save a copy from the e-mail they send you. Then Tom you ask a different question [What is NASA and what does it stand for], Rokjox then Monolith and whoever else. Graniteclimber and Mighty Hiker do not have to. I think I will do it, got to figure out the best question since I will only get only one shot at it. Thinking that the one that I will use is “why Fatty has not been on this thread?”
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 14, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
Those pictures don't prove that it is, keep in mind that they're from a "secret" joint US/Soviet mission called Apollo 20 that is supposed to have happened in 1976.

"Why does it have to be a spaceship?"

Because any other explanation just wouldn't be zesty.


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 14, 2010 - 05:33pm PT
WHY does the cylinder HAVE to be an alien spaceship?

Because it fits very cleanly into Klimmer's religious narrative.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
Rox,

Gomes did extensive analysis of this and posted an online book about it.
http://sites.google.com/site/tasfastas/apollo20-pseudospaceship

I don't have time to read it all, but skimmed some of it.


"at least one piece of retiredafb's footage is false."
http://sites.google.com/site/tasfastas/apollo20-pseudospaceship223222222222

it is probably a wrinkle-ridge
http://sites.google.com/site/tasfastas/apollo20-pseudospaceship22322222222223

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrinkle-ridge

Wrinkle-ridge
http://apollo.sese.asu.edu/LIW/20090421.html
http://wms.lroc.asu.edu/apollo/view?image_id=AS15-M-2202
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 14, 2010 - 05:47pm PT
The Apollo 20 hoax is a story told in a series of YouTube videos of a phony manned lunar mission whose purpose was to retrieve ancient alien artifacts from the moon. Thierry Speth, a French video artist, claimed to be the perpetrator of the hoax on 9 July 2007. The hoaxer began posting the videos on April Fool's Day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV8k3YOamdY&feature=related



SiteDirector
Jul 9th, 2007 at 10:40 am

“Fake” is a harsh word. When we made these videos, it was more in the nature of an homage to the sense of wonder we all feel at the possibility of extraterrestrial life. We didn’t for a minute think we could fool anyone with plastic models and some old public domain footage, and we weren’t trying to. What we were trying to do was stimulate the imagination of the general public, and enthusiam for future space exploration. Thanks for visiting the site!

SiteDirector
Jul 11th, 2007 at 11:39 am

I am Thierry Speth! Ups, I mean William Rutledge! I command you to believe in my videos!
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread294160/pg1
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:00pm PT
Well, unrelated but irritating to likely me only, but:

One uses "an" only before a word starting with a vowel, not a consonant.

The director should be ashamed of himself for not paying attention to grammar during grade school.





But back to the subject: Still staring at the cylinder.
Trying to understand why the assumption is that this is "mother ship".
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:11pm PT
Well, he's on Facebook and his favorite movie is 2012.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Thierry-Speth/1298317807

Oh, and here's the unaltered moon shot:


So, looks like fifteen minutes of poking around brings the whole mothership down in flames. Oh the huge manatee. You're welcome.
Gene

Social climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
Careful, Norton. An is appropriate before words starting with H that have an unaccented first syllable. An honorable man. An hour a day. A hypochondriac. A hippopotamus.

Thanks for giving us something rational to discuss.

You are a hero.

g
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:15pm PT
Don't you mean "an hero"? All the better conspiracy theory sources affect that effect.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:16pm PT
August 16th, 2010
Email This Digg This Post this to Reddit Share this blog post with delicious Share this on Facebook Tweet this blog post Dent this blog post
Government Uses Social Networking Sites for More than Investigations
Deeplink by Jennifer Lynch

This is part two of a two part series. Read part one.

In the midst of recent controversies over Facebook’s privacy settings, it’s easy to forget how much personal information is available from other sources on the Internet. But the government remembers. EFF recently received a number of documents from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) highlighting the government’s ability to scour not only social networks, but record each and every corner of the Internet. These documents were released in the second of a series of government disclosures resulting from EFF’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit in which EFF, with the help of UC Berkeley’s Samuelson Clinic, sought information on the procedures and guidelines employed by government agencies when conducting social network monitoring or investigations.

As an example of the government’s substantial information collection capability, several documents [PDF] in the CIA’s disclosure discuss the CIA’s so-called Open Source Center, established in 2005, which has been collecting information from publicly accessible Internet sources such as blogs, chat rooms and social networking sites, in addition to monitoring radio and television programs. The Open Source Center’s website, opensource.gov, bills itself as the “US Government's premier provider of foreign open source intelligence.” It is accessible to almost 15,000 local, state, and federal government employees and offers products ranging from reports and analysis on publicly available information dating back to the mid-90s, video reports and internet clips, translations, and media mapping and hot spot analysis.

In the other document [PDF] included in this release, FBI emails reveal the FBI’s interest in the University of Arizona’s Dark Web Project, an attempt by computer scientists to “systematically collect and analyze all terrorist-generated content on the Web.” Information in the document describes the Dark Web Project as especially effective in employing spiders to search Internet forums and find hidden web sites in the “corners of the Internet.” In addition to being able to search the Internet for content, the Dark Web Project is developing a tool called Writeprint that claims to help identify the creators of anonymous online content. The FBI emails reveal an interest in applying the Dark Web Project’s tools to the FBI’s own “operational analysis and exploitation of data, including web forums.”

As EFF and the Samuelson Clinic continue to seek information about law enforcement investigation techniques used on the Internet, we hope to learn more about how the government uses this information and especially how long it plans to keep it. In the meantime, however, it is clear that government investigators are collecting a wealth of information though the Internet in general and outside of the law enforcement context. It is also a good reminder that while social networks and other websites have privacy settings, the Internet does not. Stay tuned here for the next release.

This is part two of a two part series. Read part one.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/government-monitors-much-more-social-networks
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
Gene, upon review, you are entirely correct, and I stand corrected.

The Site Director is correct in using "an" in this instance.

It is I who should take remedial grammar again.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:19pm PT
But what about Mighty Hiker's "an" hero.

Seems it should be "a" hero.


What's up with the exception to the rule, rule, on this?
Gene

Social climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
Don't you mean "an hero"?

Don't know. What's the rule for A or AN before a D?

Good thought Aders.

g
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
Not an unaccented first syllable, but rather a silent "H". "Honorable", for example, has the accent on the first syllable.

Although, if you dig hard enough, you'll find other rules.

Edit: Oh, shit! You guys just sucked me into to posting on a conspiracy thread. Did you conspire to do that? Or is it just coincidence?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:22pm PT

Thank you Cintune. But where is the massive space ark?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
"D", being a hard consonant, would require an "a" in front of it, not an "an"

Right? Crap. Has to be, doesn't it?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:24pm PT
Articles: A versus An

Summary: This short handout deals with which article to use before a noun -- "a" or "an."

Contributors:Chris Berry, Allen Brizee
Last Edited: 2010-04-17 05:55:10

How do you know when to use the indefinite articles?

"A" goes before all words that begin with consonants.

* a cat
* a dog
* a purple onion
* a buffalo
* a big apple

With one exception: Use "an" before unsounded h.

* an honorable peace
* an honest error

"An" goes before all words that begin with vowels:

* an apricot
* an egg
* an Indian
* an orbit
* an uprising

With two exceptions: When u makes the same sound as the y in you, or o makes the same sound as w in won, then a is used.

* a union
* a united front
* a unicorn
* a used napkin
* a U.S. ship
* a one-legged man

Note: The choice of article is actually based upon the phonetic (sound) quality of the first letter in a word, not on the orthographic (written) representation of the letter. If the first letter makes a vowel-type sound, you use "an"; if the first letter would make a consonant-type sound, you use "a." So, if you consider the rule from a phonetic perspective, there aren't any exceptions. Since the 'h' hasn't any phonetic representation, no audible sound, in the first exception, the sound that follows the article is a vowel; consequently, 'an' is used. In the second exception, the word-initial 'y' sound (unicorn) is actually a glide [j] phonetically, which has consonantal properties; consequently, it is treated as a consonant, requiring 'a'.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:25pm PT
The aliens came back and moved the ship.



edit: Thank you Granite Climber. This needed to be cleared up.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
Who said the space aliens sleep in bunks? All the better sites say they sleep in hammocks. Are you trying to debunk the hammock theory?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:31pm PT
No, no, you have it all wrong. It's Mitey Hiker - because of all the lousy jokes.
Gene

Social climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:47pm PT
No, no, you have it all wrong. It's Mitey Hiker - because of all the lousy jokes.


Got it, Aders. Thanks for the clarification.

Best,
g
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
If it's not on Linda's site its not worth talking about. The thread drift here was worthwhile tho.

http://www.earthfiles.com
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:48pm PT
the photo analysis is interesting, but there isn't enough information to be generating grand conclusions

we really need to go back to the moon and explore all over the place

think how much we wouldn't know about earth if we only had orbital pictures and a half dozen lander missions that didn't travel far from the landing site

and that's just one of the nearby places to explore

we have much to learn
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 14, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
Rok, have you tried just using the print screen key?

Although the image may have been enhanced, it sure looks like a better starting point for the spaceship version than vice-versa.

Also, why is the "mothership" streamlined? Big waste of interior space when there's no atmospheric friction to worry about.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
F*#k off and go away. Nobody is left that wants to play with you. You have destroyed the avatar you use, my advice would be to start over with another.

too bad you can't take your own advice now isnt it?

I think that GC, hawkspit, and a couple others are the same guy, who needs to have the hell beat out of him in a blanket party.

poor windbag likes to threaten people who doont put up with his blathering...

this is about the third or fourth time you have threatened me, after you have threatened others. you are nothing but an unemployed, internet
f%cktard, not worth the time it would take to kick your a$$...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:16pm PT
I think that GC, hawkspit, and a couple others are the same guy, who needs to have the hell beat out of him in a blanket party.

Thanks for including that quote by RJ. I don't read through all his posts--they're too long and I don't have enough time--so I missed it. I know that other people have been threatened in the past, but this is the first time that someon has threatened physical violence againt me on this forum.

Also, this is the second time physical violence has been threatened or implied on this thread that I know off.

These people are paranoid and not rational. When they demonize and depersonalize their enemies it is easy for them to lose perspective.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
rj, your anger is understandable. your threats are highly inappropriate
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
gc, i'd really like to understand why you behave the way you do

i can imagine various scenarios that may explain your behavior, but i'd rather hear it from you. do you act the same among people who know you?

you seem intelligent, yet use your intelligence to run around the forums slinging mud at people

occasionally you come up with some pretty interesting stuff, but only when it seems to discredit what someone else has to say. and you do seem to specialize in things that are known to be the subjects of government cover ups

you insist on remaining anonymous; yet you take advantage of other people who stand behind what they say with their own names; by searching out information about them; apparently in attempts to intimidate

my feeling is that a society depends upon mutual respect and trust to remain in existence. my concern is a general one that goes beyond just you, as there are a few others here who behave similarly.

you come to a climbing forum, yet you don't really seem to be a climber. are you just trying to sow seeds of distrust and break up the special bond of trust that climbers tend to have with each other?

people like you make this place substantially poorer by driving away others who could make very interesting contributions, but can't stand the stench. a number of our great climbers don't come near this place as a consequence. are you doing that intentionally or is it just unleashed when you are anonymous?

i don't mean to single you out for attack, but i'd really like to know!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 14, 2010 - 09:42pm PT
interesting stuff, some of this and i certainly did not mean to make people loose sleep over my posts (except RJ).

having no personal experience with arks, the moon, aliens or sasquatch it seems strange to me that so many would spend so much time persuing something that to many people are the same as fairy tales. but hey, folks spend time on those too, so what the hell.

RJ has threatened many on this forum and wonders why it is that people don't take his brand of crap. he can dish it out but can't seem to take it. nor does he recognize that there are some guys out there that when the time comes to fighting they don't need to threaten another, they will respond wtih action. if he had half a brain cell he might just ponder that thought....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 10:09pm PT
Photogrammetry 101:

Who can tell what in this image has been doctored and why it is fraudulent?

I know.











Score 2222 !!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 10:18pm PT
C'mon guys. Tell me what is wrong with the image just above.


If you know what you are talking about you can nail it 1, 2, 3.

C'mon give it a go.

Let's hear it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:25pm PT
I have pictures of a REAL alien spacecraft. See if you can spot it below. It's not imaginary like that "Massive Ark" on the moon.



























































































































NASA landing craft on Mars.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:28pm PT
ET, phone home!







































































































Mars rover.
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:38pm PT
That sh'it laying there is unsophisticated caveman junk compared to what the denizens of the upper planetary systems have.

Not even worthy.

You haven't seen nor heard of the real stuff out there yet.

Of course .... what can one expect from a caveman such as graniteclimber anyways other than internet wanking all day long ......
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
Another Alien Spaceship. This is real--not imaginary. Try to guess who made it and where it went. Then scroll down.





















































Soviet Venera 13 lander sent to Venus.
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:45pm PT
Just more crude primitive mechanical junk.

Not worthy.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:48pm PT
Werner, it was Soviet-made in the late 70's, early 80's. Of course it was crude primitive junk by current standards, as was also the technology you were using at that time.

Look at your high tech "hi-fi":


I love this picture!
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:54pm PT
Even today's current space stuff is so primitive it's an embarrassment.

Pure garbage.

Space travel is not done the way modern science is trying to conceive it.

In this age of Kali they are actually going backwards instead of forward because modern science is missing completely the key element.

Total cavemen ....
dirtbag

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:55pm PT
Hawkeye, until you've actually encountered a sasquatch, like myself and half a dozen others here on ST, your question is legitimate.

You did not see it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 14, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
Even today's current space stuff is so primitive it's an embarrassment.

Pure garbage.

Space travel is not done the way modern science is trying to conceive it.

Go the moon--show us how to do it right. Don't let those backward "primitives" in NASA get in your way. You are so much smarter then them.

Or are you?

I don't see any pictures of you standing on the moon.

what can one expect from a caveman ... other than internet wanking all day long .....

Post up your moon pics, Werner.
WBraun

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
The moon planet nor space travel is the goal although these "so called modern scientists" are trying very hard and in their process are misleading not only themselves along with the the public at the their expense.

Pure foolishness.

They (modern scientist) don't even know what the real goal is, thus they mislead everyone and try to dazzle us with their primitive mechanical technology.

Children are easily dazzled .....
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
Here are the originals, click, then right click to download:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630

Use whatever program you like to zoom in. It looks like the 'nose' is part of a continuous formation, unlike Klimmer's pics with the wishful shadows thrown in to make it distinct.
dirtbag

climber
Oct 14, 2010 - 11:18pm PT
more illuminati disinformation
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 14, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
Photogrammetry 101:

Who can tell what in this image has been doctored and why it is fraudulent?

I know.


It is clearly missing in this image. Gone. Vanished. How come? It is clearly visible in the original Apollo 15 image but not in this altered and doctored image:





You have to view it in 3D stereo or you will miss it . . .


C'mon I'm holding your hands here . . .


It shows up clearly in the following official NASA Apollo 15 images viewed in stereo:







And it clearly shows up in this stereogram from Apollo 20 matching the official Apollo 15 image, which indicates a very big evidence that this is the real McKoy and not faked:





If you do not view it in 3D then you probably don't know what I'm talking about. And I'm not talking about the obvious massive 3D spaceship either. I'm talking about a natural feature that is in the stereograms made from the official NASA Apollo 15 images, and the stereogram made from Apollo 20 images, but this obvious natural feature that is 3D is not in the faked image at the very top of this post. It is vanished. Gone. (Proving that it is faked, altered, filtered, and smoothed among many other things.)

By the way, for someone to go to the trouble to falsify this image from Apollo 15, is another good indication that the ship is actually there. You don't do fraud to erase a spaceship, to tell the truth. You do so to lie and cover-up. You don't hide something if something isn't there to hide.


So what is this natural feature?




Here is another big clue. It is clearly visible in both the following images but not the altered fake image of Apollo 15 at the top of this post.




Yes, by all means go to the original and zoom in as close as you want in both images. The natural feature is clearly visible in the originals but not in the altered faked image at the top of this post.

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 12:01am PT
And the nose is clearly not distinct unlike your 'Apollo 20' pics from some guys photobucket account.

And there are a lot of 'anomalies' apparent in comparing all the pics.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 12:16am PT
You are at a serious disadvantage if you do not view these stereograms in 3D. That is what photogrammetry is all about. Depth of field. Depth of detail. You guys are missing serious detail without viewing in 3D.

I'm not gonna give you the answer just yet. You guys need to try to figure this out. I have held your hand. I have led you to the river to drink, now you have to just do it -- drink in the 3D.



Here is a great resource for stereoscopes . . .

http://ascscientific.com/stereos.html

I have the Sokkia Pocket Stereoscope.


I also now have the PokeScope. Works great for viewing 3D on the computer. You can scale the images large or small and see it in full 3D. With my Sokkia I have to set the scale at a particular scale to get the 3D results to work right. So I would go with the PokeScope.



The PokeScope® 3D Viewer
A Modern Stereoscope
and Stereoscopic Software
http://www.pokescope.com/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 01:18am PT


Also, realize that the craft is nearly in the dead center of the entire image. Curoius how they flew directly in line with it. See the shaded relief map of their flight/photography line. Flight line was straight over Iszak D craters and the Ship.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/apolloindex/apollo15/as15indexmap01/150dpi.jpg

Also, this is obviously a panarama by apollo 15. You can see the curvature of the Moon going away to either side.

Also, know that this is not a vertical image but slightly oblique looking forward. The spaceship on the baackside of the moon is very oblique in these images as a result. Very important to note that.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:35am PT

























































MisterAnswers

Social climber
Ark on the Moon
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:43am PT
Mister Answer has an Answer - that is one dumbass statement Klimmer made and it is his inability to think straight that makes it difficult for people to take him seriously.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:44am PT
There's an unexpected and not readily-explainable shape
in this image, the Bible speaks of angels, and the photograph
passes photogrammetry validity tests. Therefore, the shape
must be a spacecraft



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g



CROWD:
A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her!
Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
We have found a witch. May we burn her?
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2:
She looks like one.
CROWD:
Right! Yeah! Yeah!
BEDEVERE:
Bring her forward.
WITCH:
I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
Uh, but you are dressed as one.
WITCH:
They dressed me up like this.
CROWD:
Augh, we didn't! We didn't...
WITCH:
And this isn't my nose. It's a false one.
BEDEVERE:
Well?
VILLAGER #1:
Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE:
The nose?
VILLAGER #1:
And the hat, but she is a witch!
VILLAGER #2:
Yeah!
CROWD:
We burn her! Right! Yeaaah! Yeaah!
BEDEVERE:
Did you dress her up like this?
VILLAGER #1:
No!
VILLAGER #2 and 3:
No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
No.
VILLAGERS #2 and #3:
No.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes.
VILLAGER #2:
Yes.
VILLAGER #1:
Yes. Yeah, a bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.
VILLAGERS #1 and #2:
A bit.
VILLAGER #3:
A bit.
VILLAGER #1:
She has got a wart.
RANDOM:
[cough]
BEDEVERE:
What makes you think she is a witch?
VILLAGER #3:
Well, she turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE:
A newt?
VILLAGER #3:
I got better.
VILLAGER #2:
Burn her anyway!
VILLAGER #1:
Burn!
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her!...
BEDEVERE:
Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
VILLAGER #1:
Are there?
VILLAGER #2:
Ah?
VILLAGER #1:
What are they?
CROWD:
Tell us! Tell us!...
VILLAGER #2:
Do they hurt?
BEDEVERE:
Tell me. What do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2:
Burn!
VILLAGER #1:
Burn!
CROWD:
Burn! Burn them up! Burn!...
BEDEVERE:
And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1:
More witches!
VILLAGER #3:
Shh!
VILLAGER #2:
Wood!
BEDEVERE:
So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3:
B--... 'cause they're made of... wood?
BEDEVERE:
Good! Heh heh.
CROWD:
Oh, yeah. Oh.
BEDEVERE:
So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1:
Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE:
Ah, but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #1:
Oh, yeah.
RANDOM:
Oh, yeah. True. Uhh...
BEDEVERE:
Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1:
No. No.
VILLAGER #2:
No, it floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1:
Throw her into the pond!
CROWD:
The pond! Throw her into the pond!
BEDEVERE:
What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1:
Bread!
VILLAGER #2:
Apples!
VILLAGER #3:
Uh, very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1:
Cider!
VILLAGER #2:
Uh, gra-- gravy!
VILLAGER #1:
Cherries!
VILLAGER #2:
Mud!
VILLAGER #3:
Uh, churches! Churches!
VILLAGER #2:
Lead! Lead!
ARTHUR:
A duck!
CROWD:
Oooh.
BEDEVERE:
Exactly. So, logically...
VILLAGER #1:
If... she... weighs... the same as a duck,... she's made of wood.
BEDEVERE:
And therefore?
VILLAGER #2:
A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
A witch!
CROWD:
A witch! A witch!...
VILLAGER #4:
Here is a duck. Use this duck.
[quack quack quack]
BEDEVERE:
Very good. We shall use my largest scales.
CROWD:
Ohh! Ohh! Burn the witch! Burn the witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Ahh! Ahh...
BEDEVERE:
Right. Remove the supports!
[whop]
[clunk]
[creak]
CROWD:
A witch! A witch! A witch!
WITCH:
It's a fair cop.
VILLAGER #3:
Burn her!
CROWD:
Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn! Burn!...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 01:59am PT
Some people on this thread (like myself) are not disputing the validity of the image, but are rather disputing the assumption that the shape is a space craft.

Rational Thought 101.

Tell me what's wrong with this statement:

"There's an unexpected and not readily-explainable shape in this image, the Bible speaks of angels, and the photograph passes photogrammetry validity tests. Therefore, the shape must be a spacecraft."


Stzzo,

You have forgotten this is not my story. I didn't make it up. The public World really didn't know much about this story before April, 2007.

The full story was presented by "retireafb" and then later "Moonwalker1966delta." All of the video was presented and given, showing that it was obviously a derelict spacecraft. The videos match the still images also. You can compare back and forth, back and forth. Do so for yourself.

Not sure how you can fake that and then do so in 3D without making a very expensive perfect scaled elaborate model of the entire region of the Moon where the spaceship is. Who does that just for kicks on the internet? We are talking big production and lots of time and money $$$ to fake all of this. Some is faked, and it has easily been called out already. I'm sure we will figure out more. But for me, the ship indeed seems to be there. The photogrammetry does say so. And there are attempts to hide it and claim those images are the real ones. Hardly.

Like I said before, that is very easy cover for the truth. A trickle Controlled Disclosure Program. By the time they come out and say that something is truly happening, everyone will already know.


What you quoted up there I never said. Don't put words in my mouth. The story is someone else's. Rami the Isreali artist was the first one to come up with the Nephilim theory, I just happen to agreed with him. It certainly is not a rock.

Yes, I know it challenges everyone's reality. I know this.

Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:12am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 02:21am PT
Well, you can stand by it, it is your argument, but it is wrong. I never presented it in the weak link manner you portrayed. The manner you portray it in is just attack and ridicule.

The Nephilim hypothesis is just that. It is as valid at this moment as any that has been thought out carefully. There is a difference between best guess and brain-less guess.

The Nephilim hypothesis, does indeed fall into place very well, whereas others are very difficult to conceive due to Universal and Galactic distances and enormous amounts of time required. Parallel Universes? Multi-dimensional beings perhaps?

But the Christian hypothesis, Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demonic Spirits is as valid as any right now. Personally, I think it is far more valid than any other. We have a all time best selling Holy Book, called The Holy Bible. GOD's word doesn't shy away from this topic at all, but explains it. Many Christians are now waking up to that fact. It is a hypothesis that is worth considering.


Edit:

And not just the Holy Bible, but the Book of Enoch also helps explain and goes into great detail regarding the Nephilim hypothesis. 2 great books are very much in agreement.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:22am PT
Of course .... what can one expect from a caveman
such as graniteclimber anyways other than internet wanking
all day long ......

Werner, I just checked, and you've made, as of this moment,**
16,002 posts to Supertopo, compared to my 2611 posts.
You are the master! I tip my hat to you.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 02:41am PT
GC,

Werner has never hounded anyone like you constantly do, or constantly ridiculed anyone on ST like you and a few others do, and he has been here for a very long time with 16,000 + posts. Cranky is one thing. I can live with that. But to do what you do (cyber forum stalking and bullying) and then only have 2600 + posts, boy you have to work really hard at it, to piss that many people off.

You have heard from many that have told you to just be nice or respectful or go away. How hard can that be?

Disagreeing with someone is one thing. We can all disagree and privately think each other is nuts, but you don't have to be down right mean and rude about it.


I would still like to hear about your climbing resume.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:47am PT
Graniteclimber and Klimmer seem like yin and yang to me, like Romeo and Juliet, like Hansel and Gretel, like Abbot and Costello. Can't have one without the other.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:43am PT
There's an unexpected and not readily-explainable shape
in this image, the Bible speaks of angels, and the photograph
passes photogrammetry validity tests. Therefore, the shape
must be a spacecraft

This is the kind of logic that I've been talking about all along. Its at the level of a 3rd grader....at best.


Klimmer, I think you're so obsessed with detail that you've completely skipped common sense and rational skepticism, replacing it with wishful thinking and religious absurdity.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 09:55am PT
Klimmer said:
Yes, by all means go to the original and zoom in as close as you want in both images. The natural feature is clearly visible in the originals but not in the altered faked image at the top of this post.

Klimmer, if the natural feature is clearly visible in the undisputed originals that are not stereograms, then why do we need to view the stereogram?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 11:00am PT
Such people often find the need to cry about how many people "threaten" them by calling them out on their very personal insults and their goading.

His is the kind who start a fight, then call the police when it is time to put up. "He THREATENED me" ...


cry? "I fart in your general direction..."

i never made a big deal of your threats because men who threaten are pussies, not men.


you have whined about lack of respect, whined about being unemployed, whined about california, whined about city of rocks, whined about wolves...


if in real life you are anything like you are on here, then you are nothing but a steaming pile of crap...

i don't threaten, and i will forgive and forget to a point, beyond that point, i take action and don't need to act like a big internet tuff man, you unemployed internet whiner...

don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong about being unemployed. but there is something wrong about whining about being unemployed then doing nothing about it.


you want respect then you got to keep fighting for a job, then you might gain some respect.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 11:19am PT
face it, klim, you're not going to get the answers you want about that thing on the moon and it's probably not important either. there is plenty to be suspicious about from other ethereal things happening right here on the planet--the crop rings, the ufo sightings, the deactivated nukes--and you're not going to get answers about them either. step back and look at the big picture. there are two kinds of people on the planet, the controlled dummies and the controllers, the ones who won't open the files, won't investigate the obvious about 9/11, the ones who fire the honest reporters and screw the honest elections.

now i want you to step back another step and tell me exactly how your contradictory theology fits into all this. sometimes god is omnipotent, sometimes he's just another competing ET faction. one thing for sure, he isn't in control, he plays games with us. the devil does too. even though we're a worthless bunch of lab mice, we seem to be important enough for a whole raft of other-dimensional ETs, holy people and holy hell people to be flitting around the planet, making deals with popes and presidents, keeping it all secret--for what? to get us to go to church on sunday? or take our vacations to sin city? or both?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 15, 2010 - 12:13pm PT
i understand that passions are running high here. however there are legal ramifications and recourse in this. some of these discussions have clearly crossed over the line. i grew up in idaho, but left there a long time ago, and don't like that sort of thinking. never mind the local culture; assault and battery is illegal throughout the county and the countryside, as are threats of such. stalking and slander are also illegal. if the internet seems somewhat overlooked regarding this; you can be sure that is a temporary state of affairs while law enforcement takes the opportunity to troll for offenders. i would have thought you people would be sufficiently sophisticated to realize that. i also agree that a lot of the reasoning on this thread is pretty flakey; however that in itself is not a condemnation of a person. the internet brings together a wide variety of cultures and points of view and is a great way to resolve some of these wild inconsistencies. it is also a good place to develop tolerant understanding. whatever the case and no matter the superficial anonymity, threats, slander and stalking are outside the law. a limited amount of disrespect and ridicule may not be illegal, but are certainly childish and inappropriate
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
Cops mostly monitor for sex crimes (particularly underage) in known high risk hangouts, Tom. ST is not one of these sites.

If you want action about other stuff, go to the cops, start a civil suit, or stop your whining.
WBraun

climber
Oct 15, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
TomCochrane

The way to go around here in these kinds of threads is just post your stuff and ignore idiots like graniteclimber when he does his stupid stalking.

You can't really give people like that any credence when they remain anonymous.

They are acting as cowards in that incarnation as a poster.

A coward on a battlefield suffers the greatest of them all and no one respects them.

They lose everything .......

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
Pate,

Along with GC and a few others you guys are the worst.

You know if you ever got into trouble in Yosemite and needed a rescue, Werner even knowing who you are "Pate" of ST infamy, he would probably still rescue you. Why? Because he is a better person than you.


Klimmer said:

Yes, by all means go to the original and zoom in as close as you want in both images. The natural feature is clearly visible in the originals but not in the altered faked image at the top of this post.


Klimmer, if the natural feature is clearly visible in the undisputed originals that are not stereograms, then why do we need to view the stereogram?


Monolith,

Good question. It is clearly visible in the original stereogram images from Apollo 15 (by the way, they list them as stereo images for a reason, so you will view them in stereo). You can see it, but it doesn't register in your "minds eye" because you can not see the relief unless you view it in 3D. And it is also clearly visible in the images from Apollo 20.

Here is an experiment: start walking or driving your car around with only one eye open. How many accidents do you experience? (By the way, don't really do this.) Our ability to see depth of field is critical to get more information about our surroundings. Without it we miss a great amount of detailed information. That is why stereo viewing, stereograms, stereo plotters are so important in the Earth Sciences, geomorphology, and Cartography etc. etc.




I will give you a hint:

This is even ST relevant!

It is a massive boulder like formation. It is clearly visible in the originals from Apollo 15 and Apollo 17, and also visible in "Apollo 20" images.

It is removed from the altered and faked image. The massive boulder is vanished, erased in the altered image. Poooooof! Gone.

This is a very significant detail for many reasons. Now, see if you can find it. It will be easier in 3D!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
Hey look! Virgin Airlines must be in on the ark thing. Their space transport looks suspiciously familiar...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
OK you guys, lay off the aspartame. You've gone all weird.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
Still waiting for an answer Klimmer.

You said the natural feature is clearly visible in the original (non-stereogram) pics.

If they are clearly visible, then you don't need the stereogram.

Cintune's pic is not a stereogram so stereograms are useless if you say the feature is not in Cintune's pic.

Simple logic, Klimmer. I don't know how to make it simpler for you.

Now stop dancing around.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
Monolith,

I'm agreeing with you. You are staring at it but you probably don't realize it. You can clearly see it in 2D in the official unaltered images. You can not see it in the altered, faked image. (It will be easier in 3D)

Go and find it!

I gave you lots of hints. It is a big massive like boulder formation. It's absence in the altered and faked image is significant.

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
You are not making any sense, Klimmer. We don't have a stereogram version of Cintune's pic.

Drop the stereogram posturing bullsh#t.

The question you should be asking is what is the pedigree of Cintune's pic?

What is the process to make it from a legit source? I know you won't look into it, but it's a curiosity for me, because zooming into the pics from lpi.usra with a toy image viewer does not give you he resolution of Cintune's pic.

But, they show that the 'nose' is part of a continuous geology feature.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
i understand that passions are running high here. however there are legal ramifications and recourse in this. some of these discussions have clearly crossed over the line. i grew up in idaho, but left there a long time ago, and don't like that sort of thinking. never mind the local culture; assault and battery is illegal throughout the county and the countryside, as are threats of such. stalking and slander are also illegal. if the internet seems somewhat overlooked regarding this; you can be sure that is a temporary state of affairs while law enforcement takes the opportunity to troll for offenders. i would have thought you people would be sufficiently sophisticated to realize that. i also agree that a lot of the reasoning on this thread is pretty flakey; however that in itself is not a condemnation of a person. the internet brings together a wide variety of cultures and points of view and is a great way to resolve some of these wild inconsistencies. it is also a good place to develop tolerant understanding. whatever the case and no matter the superficial anonymity, threats, slander and stalking are outside the law. a limited amount of disrespect and ridicule may not be illegal, but are certainly childish and inappropriate

tom, you sometimes seem like an intelligent guy. have you thought about how a court case like this might go down???


PROSECUTOR: ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we are here today because hawkeye was insulting and defaming the character of certain posters on supertaco.com. the thread was titled, The Massive Ark on the Moon (very OT, but of high interest). Mr. hawkeye was defaming the character of several ST posters who were debating whether or not there was an Alien Ark hidden on the moon. Mr. klimmer was most insulted as he was the poster who started the thread and he believes that these aliens are tied into the devil and that NASA is covering the whole thing up. Mr. bmacd was also insulted because his claim at having seen an “invisible sasquatch” was poo-poohed by mr. hawkeye. ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we are charging mr. hawkeye with internet bullying because mr. hawkeye made fun of these beliefs and defamed the other posters character.

Right tom, right…

there is absolutley nothing that i ,or anyone else can say, that would defame klimmers character worse thatn what he has written here...if you truly believe that then you got your own issues dude....

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
I also want to see better images of the "forests" on Mars. Those things DO look like plant life spread around an old lake bed ...

cool, kind of like that avatar movie?!? did those guys film it on mars?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
just trying to give you the respect that you deserve, that you craved back in the "golden age of st" thread.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:47pm PT
unfortunately, some of these guys think that movies like star trek, star wars and avatar are documnetaries....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
OK you guys, lay off the aspartame. You've gone all weird.

It's the fluoride in the drinking water. LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
I am put in mind of a room I once saw, hidden deep inside of Army intelligence headquarters in a certain Fort in Arizona. Inside a blast hardened building, inside what looked like a bank vault, but was likely a farraday cage, were two dozen soldiers in camo, hunched over individual computers, and doing NOTHING but playing the classic windows solitaire, because I was there on business.

What you didn't see is that they spent most of their time playing solitaire when you weren't there on business.

We have a lot of government workers here on Supertopo. Some of them are even posting to this thread on government time and/or using government computers.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
yeah GC, but i am being paid to discredit, disrupt and otherwise make these guys look dumb.....it's a pain the A$$ but a guy has got to make a living somehow, besides, i dont have to work to hard on the making them look dumb part nor the discrediting part, perfect job for a government employee...it requires little effort.

i thought you were too? at least that is what those highly reliable sources were saying earlier on the thread...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
The don't understand that we are only doing our jobs. LOL
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
You can take any image or a set of images and make them look 3D. There is an whole industry in converting crappy 2D images to fake 3D. Why should't Klimmer get into the act also?

http://blog.moviefone.com/2010/02/04/sony-converts-old-movies-to-3d-for-blu-ray-when-will-it-stop/




3D cows! Mooooo! Moooooo!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
You are not making any sense, Klimmer. We don't have a stereogram version of Cintune's pic.

Drop the stereogram posturing bullsh#t.

The question you should be asking is what is the pedigree of Cintune's pic?

What is the process to make it from a legit source? I know you won't look into it, but it's a curiosity for me, because zooming into the pics from lpi.usra with a toy image viewer does not give you he resolution of Cintune's pic.

But, they show that the 'nose' is part of a continuous geology feature.


Monolith,

One more time.

You do not need a stereoscope or a stereogram to see the massive boulder very clearly. (However, if you did it would make it a lot easier to nail what I'm talking about.) It is there clear as day if you look and compare images.

Once again, the massive boulder like structure is in the original Apollo 15, Apollo 17, and also the "Apollo 20" images. You can see it, even in 2D.

You can not see the massive boulder in the altered, fake image in 2D. Regardless whether there is another stereo image to go with it or not doesn't matter (doubt it, since it has stuff erased, and to have the same stuff erased in another adjacent image and to have them perfectly matched would be next to impossible).


I can not be more clear. You either can find it or you can not.

When I do give out the answer, you will have an uh, oh moment. I'm hoping someone can figure it out first. What are your abilities of observation?

It demonstrates that someone has alterd the fake image to hide the derelict "Mothership" Spacecraft. That is fraud.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
Hell, you can even invent objects that don't exist and make them 3D.













Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
rj,

gee thanks for the history lesson on climbing. it means so much coming from you. i can't imaging how difficult it must have been back then. having started climbing in 1972 and climbing in three countries and 20 states i know i will never even try and aspire to your level of understanding of this sport. it is guys like you that really make this site so warm and wonderful, i get so much out of all of your meaningful posts. you are so knowedgeable in so many facets of life from engineering to 9112 attacks, ufo's, wolves and woman. you truly are an inspiration! have you thought about running for office!?!? you do know that that woman in Deleware who has'nt worked for 5 years, (you know the babe who looks like palin?), she is running for office and she doesnt know half the stuff you do! i bet there has got to be some voters in Idaho who are on drugs that might vote for you, all you got to do is promise not to get caught tapping other boy's feet under the bathroom stall and i know you will get some votes! man oh man you truly are one of highlights of this forum, i know you say that you were a nobody and that nobody appreciates your life experiences but that simply is not true! just think of hte rousing campaign speaches you could give! death to the wolves! keep californians out of our great state of idaho! create jobs where everyone can stay home and post all day! you got a platform buddy!

feel better now?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
MH said:“Ok you guys lay off the aspartame. You’ve gone all weird”

GC said: “It’s the fluoride in the drinking water”

It’s the drinking water and boiling it won’t help.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:15pm PT



Percival Lowell's drawings of Martian Canals. Looking through his telescope in the early 1900's, he was was sure he saw canals made by "martians." For fifteen years he studied Mars extensively, and made intricate drawings of the surface markings as he perceived them. Lowell published his views in three books: Mars (1895), Mars and Its Canals (1906), and Mars As the Abode of Life (1908). With these writings, Lowell more than anyone else popularized the long-held belief that these markings showed that Mars sustained intelligent life forms

He also drew maps of the planet Venus. Lowell observed spoke-like features and a central dark spot, yet it is now known that Venus' atmosphere is opaque. In an article published in Sky and Telescope in July 2003, it was suggested that in fact Lowell was observing an image of the blood vessels in his own eye.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
those blood vessels can be pesky...i thought i had one but turns out i was reading a post from RJ...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
But I want to make it damn clear, ONE THING. I want nothing from you that you couldn't give me if you committed suicide tonight.


I just want you to STFU. And being dead wouldn't be a high price to pay for your mouth being gone. We could have such a nice obituary, and we would all lie about what you meant to us.


The full Idaho moon brings out the monster in Rokjox.







He's mad as hell and isn't going to take it any more!

Now where can he find some grubs under a rock to eat?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
This may be the all-time weirdest thread on ST. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:30pm PT
And speaking of fluoride what does Republican Tea Party candidate for the Nevada senate think about it?

Nevada GOP Senate candidate Sharron Angle earlier in her career spoke out strongly against fluoride, the substance known alternately for improving dental health and as a Communist plot to undermine Western democracy.

Angle, the tea party favorite who is taking on Sen. Harry Reid, tends to be skeptical of government programs, and her opposition to fluoridation of municipal water supplies back in the late 1990s is no exception.

[TPM SLIDESHOW: 'Showdown In Searchlight' -- Tea Partiers Rally To Boot Harry Reid]

The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported in April 1999 that the state assembly, of which Angle was a member, voted 26-16 for a bill that required fluoridation in two counties including the cities of Reno and Las Vegas. Angle was a strong opponent of the measure. The paper reported (via Nexis):

Before the vote, Assemblywoman Sharron Angle, R-Reno, sought to postpone the vote so she could add an amendment to block fluoridation in Washoe County. The Washoe County Commission in 1992 rejected fluoridation, and Angle said the Legislature should not approve fluoridation in her county without a vote of its people.
While another member of the Assembly suggested opponents of the measure were worried about the financial implications of fluoridation, the Review-Journal reported: "Angle said she simply does not like fluoride." Angle added she believed most fluoride used in water supplies could contain "lead, arsenic, [or] mercury."

Here's what the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has to say on the matter:

"For 65 years, community water fluoridation has been a safe and healthy way to effectively prevent tooth decay. CDC has recognized water fluoridation as one of 10 great public health achievements of the 20th century."

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:31pm PT
Roxjox commandeth thee: If thou is not a werewolf thou must leave this world AT ONCE. He hath spoken!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
for rox, since it appears that your voice is not being heard...


let us know ow much it costs, we will take up a collection....
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
Still selling LSD by the thousand hits a night, following the Dead around for fun and profit?

That was you? (not you rj) Thanks! I always had a blast at those shows!

How many people were hospitalized from your hard drug sales? Did any die?

I can't let this slide. Alcohol has killed more people than all of the "hard drugs" combined. And LSD is the least amongst them. But that's really fodder for another thread.

Carry on.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:49pm PT
But I want to make it damn clear, ONE THING. I want nothing from you that you couldn't give me if you committed suicide tonight.

I just want you to STFU. And being dead wouldn't be a high price to pay for your mouth being gone. We could have such a nice obituary, and we would all lie about what you meant to us.




Rokjox as a young pup.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:52pm PT
I know I am going to regret this, but what the hell are you talking about up there? Whose posts am I claiming as mine that aren't?



And how do you get points on ST?

rj read his thread S_L_O_W_L_Y, we know you can do it. there now, try it again a little S-L-O-W-E-R....GOOD BOY.


it is not about points like a basketball game, it is about points of view...got it?

try this out ok?
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
I have a conspiracy theory that these are the same anonymous guts from Princeton that were Rajmit's peers.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:11pm PT


atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:11pm PT
An "Ark" on the moon? Hahahaha, thats hilarious. Are you thinking this somehow relates to that fictional story about Noah?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
careful there atcha!

you are not on the payroll, paid to disrupt and discredit, i am gonna talk to my union representative about this...people start doing that for free and i will be out of work...
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
here is klimmers hypotheses for this serious thread:

:
My hypothesis is, I think it is from Intra-terrestrials, Nephalim, from Man's hidden past. You have to read your Bible, the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Enoch to understand this hidden history. Fallen Angels mated with beautiful Earthly women, and had off-spring called Nephalim. They were big, strong, very intelligent and were the combination of the worst of the Fallen Angels, and the worst of Mankind. They were a hybrid species that wasn't supposed to be. The Bible has a lot to say about the Giants, the Nephalim. It is why GOD had to wipe them all out with a massive global flood. But the Bible also says they continued to live on after the flood. Not all of them were destroyed. Could it be that they also built an Ark and escaped off World? They had the intelligence of Angels, the Fallen Angels, whom by the way taught man all kinds of forbidden knowledge, such as War. .

monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
Stop your gameplaying Klimmer, get on with it.

Stereograms have nothing to do with whether Cintune's pic has a missing natural feature in it or not.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
a boulder on hte moon? are their pad people too?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
a boulder on hte moon? are their pad people too?

Of course!


Astronaut Harrison Schmitt preparing to send!

Explanation: Twenty five years ago humans roamed the Moon. Pictured here during the last moon landing, scientist-astronaut Harrison Schmitt was photographed standing next to a huge, split boulder. Apollo 17 was one of six missions that landed humans on the moon and returned them safely. Apollo 17 explored the unusually dark terrain at the Taurus-Littrow landing site, deployed explosives to test the internal geology of the Moon, and returned the most rocks of any lunar mission.
http://www.astronet.ru/db/xware/msg/1163771
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
Looks like this thread is “going postal” / correct word for it is “deindividuation”.
atchafalaya

climber
Babylon
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:51pm PT
Klimmer's hypothesis is absolutely nuts. And I mean that respectfully...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:53pm PT
Klimmer's hypothesis is absolutely nuts.

Now you've done it and will be asked to leave.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
Deindividuation, as described by Leon Festinger and colleagues in 1952, is the situation where anti-normative behavior is released in groups in which individuals are not seen or paid attention to as individuals. Simply put, deindividuation is immersion in a group to the point at which the individual ceases to be seen as such.


Perspectives

There are three widely-held perspectives as to how deindividuation affects the group dynamic:

1. Deindividuation weakens people against performing harmful or socially disapproved actions. Essentially, when a person is in the group and deindividuation occurs, the person is no longer acting as the individual. Therefore, what would normally inhibit the actions of a single person acting in a social setting and conforming to social norms is removed. The result is uninhibited behavior which may be harmful or socially disapproved actions (e.g.: looting, vandalism, gang assaults, etc.)

2. Deindividuation heightens peoples’ responsiveness to external cues, which may be either positive or negative. This responsiveness refers to the situation. In the case of looting, you may see others stealing desirable items and not receiving any punishment or negative outcomes. This may make you more compelled to join the group and engage in the behavior because you see others getting away with it and you believe you won’t be singled out just like they haven’t. This type of responsiveness may also be positive. For instance, you may walk into a party and see that others are sitting around, watching television, and having a drink. You will probably feel compelled to follow the group by taking a seat in front of the TV and grabbing a drink yourself. This makes you feel more at ease because you stand out less from the group.[original research?]

3. Deindividuation increases people’s adherence to norms that emerge with the group. When deindividuation occurs, new norms are set as the standard for the group. This standard pushes people to conform to the social influence of the group instead of thinking individually about how to comply with social norms. This can be exemplified in gang activities such as vandalism. Even though it is against a societal norm (and the law, for that matter) to spray paint walls with offensive terms and symbols, the norm set for the group is that it is a typical and endorsed behavior which switches from “damaging property” to “creating artwork and marking the gang’s territory.” This emergence of new group norms often leads to group think, a phenomenon characterized by faulty decision-making in a group.

This is on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
atcha,

you start discrediting the guy for free and i will be out of work! unless you are on the payroll and a member of the union dude, you can get into serious trouble.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 04:59pm PT
To fill you in, atcha, if you spend any time here ridiculing or otherwise dissenting to that, you will be accused of being a paid government disinformation agent.

That's how I got my avatar. Apparently, I am an Illuminati mole.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:14pm PT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
i lived in new mexico when schmidt was being dumped from his one-term senatorship. the campaign slogan of his opponent:

what on earth has he done?

he also represents the best argument that we never went to the moon.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:22pm PT
Hey GC; when I put in for my free one question to physic web site that was what it also said “paid government disinformation agent”. Went the next step and asked the second question in regards on what that meant and it came up Fattrad/Karl Rowe and company.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:23pm PT


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Ap17_schmitt_falls.ogg

First man to take a faceplant on the moon?


Edit: RJ, on my Windows computer, I can just click on the link and the video comes up.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
Paid Disinformation Agent (or DISINFO agent) is stock phrase in crazyland.

The Woo-Woo Dictionary is great. http://www.insolitology.com/tests/dictionary.htm



Censorship – The act of refuting, disputing, correcting or heckling the stories posted by believers in alien visitation. Such activities can often make it embarrassing for believers to post their stories, and therefore they constitute censorship. Any response to a post other than unquestioning acceptance constitutes an attempt at censorship. The usual perpetrators of censorship are Pseudo Skeptics and Debunkers.

Closed Minded - Someone who displays an irrational tendency to need Hard Evidence before believing a claim may be true, and/or someone who feels a need to suggest mundane explanations for UFOs, crop circles, animal mutilations, etc., when these are all clearly caused by aliens.

Copyright Infringement – A serious crime usually perpetrated by Debunkers and Pseudo Skeptics when they create parodies of material posted by believers, even if none of the original text or images is used. Copyright Infringement is also an attack phrase used by Debunkers to defame believers who post cut & pasted material and photos from books, TV shows or web sites into their Usenet posts or their own web sites. Clearly this is not copyright infringement, but free advertising, and the original authors and publishers should be grateful for it.

Crop Circles - Important messages left for us by extraterrestrials if only we could understand what they mean.

Debunker - An evil and mean spirited person bent on censoring all discussion that touches on is sues The Massive Government Disinformation Campaign wants to keep under wraps. See Paid Disinformation Agent.

Defamation – Saying anything about a woo-woo that he doesn’t like, even if it is true. This includes, but is not limited to exposing his lies, criticizing his lack of logical thinking ability, pointing out his poor writing skills, pulling up his past posts from the Google Archive to show his inconsistencies, or simply laughing at him. Most woo-woos are convinced these acts are crimes under US law, and they will often issue threats of legal action in response. Unfortunately, US law lags a little behind the woo-woo definition of defamation.

Establishment Science - The pseudo religious, rigid and inflexible, dogma driven thinking of most "mainstream" scientists who scoff at the obvious reality of alien visitation and irrationally claim that over unity machines, faster than light travel, etc., are impossible. Establishment Scientists Make irrational demands for Hard Evidence and refuse to investigate claims for which no such evidence exists.

Free Thinker - Someone who not only Thinks Outside the Box, but also freely incorporates science fiction, religious belief, dreams and even drug induced hallucinations into their wild speculations about UFOs and other unusual phenomena, and gives these sources weight equal to, or more likely greater than, the explanations offered by Establishment Science.

Hard Evidence – The mythical, unobtainable, nonexistent material that will satisfy the unreasonable demands of Pseudo Skeptics and Debunkers for whom proof just isn’t good enough.

Libel – See Defamation.

Logic - A derogatory term. A favorite weapon of Paid Disinformation Agents, logic is used to over-analyze UFO reports, eyewitness accounts and investigative efforts. Be careful!! Debunker logic can lead to contradictions and mundane explanations, so keep an Open Mind when this weapon is used.

The Mainstream Media - All the TV, radio, newspaper, magazine and book publishing companies which ignore the reality of alien visitation and only produce propaganda in line with Establishment Science and the The Massive Government Disinformation Campaign. Only a few TV shows and print publications manage to publish the "Truth" in defiance of theThe Massive Government Disinformation Campaign. They can be found on the FOX network and in in the checkout isles of grocery stores.

The Massive Government Disinformation Campaign - A combined NWO / CIA / NSA / AFOSI / FBI / FAA / NASA / MIB effort to cover up the reality of the alien presence through the intimidation and discrediting of witnesses, recovery and suppression of physical evidence, and spreading of disinformation. Every nation seems to have it's own version of the Massive Government Disinformation Campaign. They are all coordinated through the New World Order shadow government. And they all work with perfect efficiency.

NASA - An organization under the direct jurisdiction of the New World Order and the Global Conspiracy. Well known for Massive Frauds such as the alleged Moon Landings, cooperating with Alien representatives to cover up the real purposes of the Space Station, sabotaging their own spacecraft bound for mars, and falsifying all recent images of the Cydonia Face taken after the original discovery photo "leaked" out.

Occam's Razor – The principal that the simplest explanation (that still conforms to all your preconceived notions and prejudices) is probably the correct explanation for a given phenomenon. Therefore Occam's Razor supports the claim that UFOs are really alien spacecraft, and not just misidentified mundane objects.

Open Minded - Someone who is not afraid to embrace new or controversial ideas unquestioningly and enthusiastically, even if they are self-contradictory or founded on nothing more than the ravings of a lunatic.

Paid Disinformation Agent - All Debunkers and most Pseudo Skeptics frequenting Usenet. These are obviously people employed by evil government three-letter agencies to disrupt the free flow of information about, and censor the truth of, alien visitation.

Paranoia - An attack phrase used by debunkers on anyone who simply expresses a natural concern and caution about the numerous ongoing government plots, conspiracies and cover-ups that are blatantly obvious to free thinkers and the open-minded.

Peer Review - An exclusionary tactic used by Establishment Science to ensure that important new theories and information not in line with their official dogma are suppressed and/or ridiculed. Also used as an attack phrase by Debunkers.

Proof - Any and all stories, rumors, lies, hoaxes, fantasies, science fiction or religious faith that tends to support any claim you make.

Pseudo-Skeptic - Someone who irrationally demands Hard Evidence before accepting that a claim may be valid.

Research - The act of renewing one's faith in alien visitation by watching UFO "documentaries" on TV, surfing UFO web sites, and reading the Weekly World News. "Field Research" may involve attending UFO conventions and vacationing in Roswell, NM.

The Scientific Method - See Peer Review

Slander – See Defamation.

Sheeple - A term used to describe the vast majority of the people in the world who are dull-witted enough to buy into Establishment Science and believe the propaganda pumped out by the Mainstream Media. They are victims of the The Massive Government Disinformation Campaign.

Thinking Outside the Box - Not allowing the irrational limitations of Establishment Science, such as the speed of light and the laws of thermodynamics, or any other facts that may conflict with one's unsupported preconceived notions, to hinder one's wild speculation about the nature of UFOs and other unusual phenomena. In reality this sort of thinking only leads to a comforting predefined answer, and not the unvarnished truth.

True Science - Unlike Establishment Science, True Science is willing to investigate UFO and other extraordinary claims Open Mindedly and without unreasonable demands for Hard Evidence. For some reason, most True Scientists seem to be either self educated, or educated in fields completely unrelated to their work on UFOs.

True Skeptic - Someone who refuses to form any hard conclusions one way or another and always stays Open Minded to all extraordinary claims without demanding any of that pesky Hard Evidence stuff.

Twitch - An infamous Debunker. The arch-enemy of all Free Thinking UFO proponents and researchers. Notorious for his extensive use of Logic and Peer Reviewed material. A CIA/NSA/FBI/NASA/MI6 Paid Disinformation Agent, he is still reviled and feared, although he has not posted regularly to the Usenet since April, 2000.

UFO - All UFOs are alien spacecraft piloted by extraterrestrial aliens looking for butts to probe and cows to mutilate. Most UFOs seem to be ineptly piloted, extremely unreliable and very crash-prone.

Unambiguous Evidence – See Hard Evidence.

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:32pm PT
UFO - All UFOs are alien spacecraft piloted by extraterrestrial aliens looking for butts to probe and cows to mutilate. Most UFOs seem to be ineptly piloted, extremely unreliable and very crash-prone.


rj, sounds like those ET's might be able to put a smile on your face!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:38pm PT
Could Jesus, really be the test tube baby of aliens?

Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:39pm PT

Oct 14, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
August 16th, 2010
Email This Digg This Post this to Reddit Share this blog post with delicious Share this on Facebook Tweet this blog post Dent this blog post
Government Uses Social Networking Sites for More than Investigations
Deeplink by Jennifer Lynch

This is part two of a two part series. Read part one.

In the midst of recent controversies over Facebook’s privacy settings, it’s easy to forget how much personal information is available from other sources on the Internet. But the government remembers. EFF recently received a number of documents from the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) highlighting the government’s ability to scour not only social networks, but record each and every corner of the Internet. These documents were released in the second of a series of government disclosures resulting from EFF’s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit in which EFF, with the help of UC Berkeley’s Samuelson Clinic, sought information on the procedures and guidelines employed by government agencies when conducting social network monitoring or investigations.

As an example of the government’s substantial information collection capability, several documents [PDF] in the CIA’s disclosure discuss the CIA’s so-called Open Source Center, established in 2005, which has been collecting information from publicly accessible Internet sources such as blogs, chat rooms and social networking sites, in addition to monitoring radio and television programs. The Open Source Center’s website, opensource.gov, bills itself as the “US Government's premier provider of foreign open source intelligence.” It is accessible to almost 15,000 local, state, and federal government employees and offers products ranging from reports and analysis on publicly available information dating back to the mid-90s, video reports and internet clips, translations, and media mapping and hot spot analysis.

In the other document [PDF] included in this release, FBI emails reveal the FBI’s interest in the University of Arizona’s Dark Web Project, an attempt by computer scientists to “systematically collect and analyze all terrorist-generated content on the Web.” Information in the document describes the Dark Web Project as especially effective in employing spiders to search Internet forums and find hidden web sites in the “corners of the Internet.” In addition to being able to search the Internet for content, the Dark Web Project is developing a tool called Writeprint that claims to help identify the creators of anonymous online content. The FBI emails reveal an interest in applying the Dark Web Project’s tools to the FBI’s own “operational analysis and exploitation of data, including web forums.”

As EFF and the Samuelson Clinic continue to seek information about law enforcement investigation techniques used on the Internet, we hope to learn more about how the government uses this information and especially how long it plans to keep it. In the meantime, however, it is clear that government investigators are collecting a wealth of information though the Internet in general and outside of the law enforcement context. It is also a good reminder that while social networks and other websites have privacy settings, the Internet does not. Stay tuned here for the next release.

This is part two of a two part series. Read part one.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/08/government-monitors-much-more-social-networks
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:42pm PT
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
Yeah, Klimmer, what's up with all the silly guessing games? Just show the pics and point out this discrepancy you claim exists. That'd be more than enough of an ah-ha moment for me, anyway. And then explain why someone who wanted to remove the spaceship and replace it with boring old lunar terrain would also need to mess with anything else in the picture. Seems like turning the spaceship into a little terrace would have been sufficient.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:45pm PT
be careful out there boys. if the aliens dont probe you the CIA will!

by the way, that GC dude is fast and clever. he must be paid more as a goernment disinformation specialist than me...
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 05:49pm PT
Jebus RokJox, you suffer from the same logic problem Klimmer does.

Klimmer says the natural feature is clearly seen in the undisputed images(not stereograms) and clearly not seen in Cintune's pic(no stereogram available).

Now why the hell do you need a stereogram to prove it's missing from Cintune's pic?
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:07pm PT

thousands and thousands rj???
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
How can you discern the difference from a pic you have no stereogram for?

All a stereogram would do is say what the natural feature might be, but not the fact that it is missing from Cintune's pic.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:37pm PT
yes, the plot thickens....

Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:49pm PT

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
Well, this thread is nothing if not entertaining...

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
There are thousand os cows being killed every year.

There are hundreds of thousands of cows killed every year, and the government is behind it! It's a conspiracy!










graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:54pm PT
Damn it! Hawk beat me!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 06:55pm PT

That job must SUCK!!!!!
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:04pm PT
the impossibly weird organ removals and situations they are found in? The lack of blood, footprints or other evidence, that leads one to conclude the animals are being killed one place


no blood, no footprints, killed all in one place.



weird organ removals
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
There are no cattle mutilations in India. That is because the "aliens" there are mostly vegetarian.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:08pm PT
^^^^^^


RJ edited his post to add everything after the first two paragraphs.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
OK guys, I'm here for the night shift. What have I missed? HQ reports that the "cutup cows" deception has been working well - what's next?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
Hi Aleister. Nice outfit.


graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
MH, the Boss says that we need more emphasis on the cattle, but to avoid their multi-dimensional aspects.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:16pm PT
Aleister Crowley (pronounced /ˈkroʊli/; 12 October 1875 – 1 December 1947), born Edward Alexander Crowley, and also known as both Frater Perdurabo and The Great Beast, was an influential English occultist, mystic and ceremonial magician, responsible for founding the religious philosophy of Thelema. Through this belief he came to see himself as the prophet who was entrusted with informing humanity that it was entering the new Aeon of Horus in 1904, a time when old ethical and religious systems would be replaced. Widely seen as one of the most influential occultists of all time, he was a member of the esoteric Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, as well as a co-founder of the A∴A∴ and eventually a leader of Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.). He is known today for his magical writings, especially The Book of the Law, the central sacred text of Thelema, although he also wrote widely on other subjects, including a large amount of fiction and poetry.

Crowley was also a bisexual, recreational drug experimenter and social critic.[1] In many of these roles he "was in revolt against the moral and religious values of his time", espousing a form of libertinism based upon the rule of "Do What Thou Wilt".[2] Because of this, he gained widespread notoriety during his lifetime, and was denounced in the popular press of the day as "the wickedest man in the world."[3][4][5][6] Alongside his esoteric activities, he was an avid chess player, mountaineer, poet and playwright, and it has also been alleged that he was a spy for the British government.[7]

Crowley has remained an influential figure right up till this day, and in 2002, a BBC poll described him as being the seventy-third greatest Briton of all time. References to him can be found in the works of numerous writers, musicians and filmmakers,[8] and he has also been cited as a key influence on many later esoteric groups and individuals, including Kenneth Grant, Gerald Gardner and, to some degree, Austin Osman Spare.[9]




Crowley died at Netherwood on 1 December 1947 at the age of 72. According to one biographer the cause of death was a respiratory infection.[108] He had become addicted to heroin after being prescribed morphine for his asthma and bronchitis many years earlier.[109] He and his last doctor died within 24 hours of each other; newspapers would claim, in differing accounts, that Dr. Thomson had refused to continue his opiate prescription and that Crowley had put a curse on him.[110]
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:20pm PT
Well THIS explains the animal mutilations! Aleister Crowley is behind them.

http://www.popsubculture.com/pop/bio_project/aleister_crowley.html

Aleister Crowley was born October 12th, 1875 at 36 Clarendon Square, Leamington, Warwickshire, England as Edward Alexander Crowley into a wealthy and religious family at the height of the Victorian era. Crowley despised and rebelled against his family at every turn, even renaming himself 'Aleister' to avoid sharing the same first name as his father, who passed away when Crowley was 11.

Like many naughty young boys, Aleister entertained himself through several activities, notably creating a "homemade firework" with which he nearly killed himself, as well as torturing a cat in several horrible ways to test the "nine lives" theory. He dispensed of his virginity at age 14 with the help of a maid. At 17, he contracted gonorrhea with the help of a street walker.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
Crowley was a very odd man. And as somebody who has seen odd things, I won't say any more about that ...

Correction. is not was. Crowley is a very odd man.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
been a long time since i encountered somebody on speed, but this may be a case of it.

the last time, i worked on a stair tower crew, high-rise. about 8 guys on the crew, it would take us all morning to break loose the forms on one story of the building stair tower the day after it was poured. you'd crawl all over the thing, loosening the nuts on through-the-wall bolts, breaking the big, heavy forms away from the wall with crowbars so the crane could take them away.

one day a wiseguy showed up at the site two hours early on speed, had the whole job done before anyone got there that day. he almost lost his job, so embarrassing to the rest of us, especially the foreman. we spent the rest of the morning "pretending" to do what he had done in a little over an hour.

great stuff, speed. but it kills.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
Gc, You made one really good observation there And then you ruined it by showing how utterly stupid you are.

This is a very good point. Why in India are there millions of cows and you doint hear of mutilations. I going to have to look more closely into this.


Now to show how ignorant you are. Most of the population of India ARE NOT VEGETARIANS. They just don't eat scared cows. All I wanted when I came back from India was a hamburger.

You such a ignorant pathetic loser, Git outta here!

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Oct 15, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
Now to show ignorant you are. Most of the population of India ARE NOT VEGETARIANS. They just don't eat scared cows. All I wanted when I came back from India was a hamburger.

I was in India and a well educated guy there told me that near 50% of the population is vegetarian. I ate vegetarian the week I spent there because the menu at most restaurants in Bangalore had more than 50% veg dishes.

BTW, they don't have mutilated cows there because aliens don't like their cows. Ours are better.

Dave
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Oct 15, 2010 - 08:03pm PT
you guys are so weird.

It's the communists you should be worried about, not aliens grabbing organs.

Geez.....
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 08:08pm PT
Gc, You made one really good observation there And then you ruined it by showing how utterly stupid you are.

This is a very good point. Why in India are there millions of cows and you doint hear of mutilations. I going to have to look more closely into this.


Now to show how ignorant you are. Most of the population of India ARE NOT VEGETARIANS. They just don't eat scared cows. All I wanted when I came back from India was a hamburger.

You such a ignorant pathetic loser, Git outta here!

I never said that most of the population of India are vegetarian. Most of the Moslims and Christians eat meat, and many of the Hindus do as well. What I said is: "The "aliens" there are mostly vegetarian." The operating hypothesis is that regardless of the general population 100% of the aliens dont' eat meat. Of course that's 100% of a set of zero, but the product is still zero. LOL.

You such a ignorant pathetic loser, Git outta here!

Your dharma is slipping.


next incarnation?
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 15, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
Rock and Roll,

Sh#t need to go home you know: dog, girlfriend, chickens, cat [not necessary in that order], go to store to get some champagne. Will be not be cutting up the chickens since they’re family.

Now have to wait till tomorrow this is getting fun.

MH: Sure miss BC [British Columbia code to the conspiracy buffs] and North wisdom. I say Canada take over US, at least CA. Split CA into North and South.

GC: you are welcomed in this thread or any from my perspective. Did not someone say on one of these or other thread "Don't need any stinkin badges".
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 15, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
Agent bmacd and I will maintain a watching brief as we head into the weekend. The Men in Black are ever-vigilant.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati
Oct 15, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
Carry on team.

I am off to engage in secret activities of a vertical nature in an undisclosed location (that's "climbing" in paid disinformation agent conspiracy code talk).
WBraun

climber
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:24am PT
So ..... ????

WTF have you really done lately?

Besides just shooting your dumb mouth off ......
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:34am PT
wild stuff happened world wide on wednesday regarding a predicted global ufo sighting

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=october+13+2010+ufo&aq=f

google "october 13 2010 ufo"

http://www.google.ca/search?q=october+13+ufo&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&expIds=17259,26425,26637,26794,26993,27103,27151&xhr=t&q=october+13+2010+ufo&cp=15&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=october+13+2010ufo&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=3e1363b08be510c8

Mighty Hiker and I have been ordered to report to the secret military underground base up at Comox as representatives of Supertopo this weekend
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 16, 2010 - 02:37am PT
Gc, you got me. I like it.

So the point is Indians are aliens. I'll go with that.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 16, 2010 - 03:05am PT
Hey Pate, do you own that buckle? Thats worth alot of money. I dont really care but thats what I know.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
Rokjox,

I'm sorry anyone one of us has to endure this poop.

Man, I thought I had to endure it. He is sending you many emails? That is nuts and crazy.

Pate and the others really need some help.

I hope they seek some.

Thanks for letting us know some background details.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
it is a PITA working for GOD (Government Obfuscation Department). boss wants me to do this on my day off...


Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:54pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:55pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 16, 2010 - 01:01pm PT


My wife, when she is really pissed off.
WBraun

climber
Oct 16, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
Hope your wife doesn't see that comment and picture.

Nope, looks more like you when you lose it and go on your anti-Christian rants .....
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
only pussies would write an email like that
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
rj must be deleting posts?
Waaah!!!

Mountain climber
Twintucky
Oct 16, 2010 - 02:12pm PT
I see you're getting a little out of line again Wance Wynch. Awe ewe cwying oveww sumthing widdle boy?

Just like back in the valley. You can circle the fire but you can't come in.

Twy to be nicer Wancy.

Or leave this forum to those who can.

I'm trying to find that Creep thread where Fish called you out for the time you took a little peep into the girls showers in Curry. I'l find it.

I'll be in Boise on Wednesday, we should get together and talk about old times.
Waaah!!!

Mountain climber
Twintucky
Oct 16, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
Ok, found it. It's a doozy Wancey boy! But then again so is this!!!!! Pway a widdle nicer Wancey, pwease?

Pate,

I'll ignore Locker, as I always do now, because he is just ordinary white trash. But I want to pursue a couple things with you. Just how in the hell, in BOSTON, do you pretend to be able to have "corroborated" my damn stories? Or the slanderous/libelous crap you are publically spreading about me?

In the last case, Me and Bridwell and Merry were the only ones I know of that were there that post on this forum. In another case, it was me and the crook and my old lady. In a third, it was me and a Mexican who said he was a cop of some sort.

It looks to me like I was getting blowjobs before you got your first dress, and I don't see ANYthing that suggests you have done anything more unusual than post on this community board since you were getting your ass wiped by the hooker you were born from. You want to call me a liar, as#@&%e, you better NOT get anywhere near my face, because I will EAT you.

What the hell you been doing with YOUR life, you limp wristed pretender piece of sh#t? If you know so much about where and what I been doing, you must been one of my bitches. So I'll tell you what. Lets make a game out of it. You tell me how long you been sucking my c*#k, and I'll make a guess as to just which of my bitch's you are.


You want a fight mother f*#ker, you just show up and identify your piece of crap self, and you can have it. But you goddamn better know what you are doing and be ready, because I am all over it.


FuCK You you queer faggot f*#k.

I will be LOOKING for you.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 05:24pm PT
Waah, you are another lying anonymous creep who can't face his own battles. You developed your fake anonymous persona solely to come out and harass me, because you can't fight like a man. You damn well better believe I meant every damn word of that post above. I STAND by it.

You want to meet me Wednesday? I'm in the phone book. PLEASE give me a call. I would LOVE to find out who you are. Reach out and TOUCH someone. They are only a phone call away, as the little jingle used to say... The Truth will set you FREE. Give me a call, Crybaby. I Love to catch up.


Please give me a call.

Would LOVE to meet you. Or give me YOUR phone number, chickensh#t...








And if Russ said something about me "peeping" you can damn well bet he took it back because its a frigging LIE. And you had best stop spreading lies, because they will catch up with you. Russ and I settled our differences over what sh#t he said a long time ago, and I have maintained my agreement with him. Of course, he MAY be one of these guys that are lying about me, but I expect he is a better man than to violate his agreement. If it turns out he is NOT, then I will pick up on HIM where I left off too. In due time.

Take a number, boys.



I got inside those dorms as a welcome guest pretty damn easy, and I never had to "peek" at a damn woman in my life. The only story I know of that had anything to do with being in a womans shower was Bridwell and he was washing pots as another guest.






Right now, I got a new post to work up, the rest of the story on Marc, with his full details. Then I intend to do a search on just what the hell he has gotten several years probation on, and a few other details. Its all public records. Just his full name, his address and the crimes he has admitted to. the man is a slimeball, and he will not be happy pissing me off when I am done. He would do Far better to meet me in a nice quiet gym here.



As long as we are airing dirty laundry in the "search for the TRUTH", I think ALL the truth ought to come out. If a bunch of anonymous and not so anonymous asswipes want to make up lies about me and spread unfounded rumors, I think the rest of the world here needs to know just exactly what kind of people they REALLY are that are slandering me. Because the truth is, some of the boys here are complete crooks and have been for decades.


I know who the hell I am, and I will trade stories, one for one. What I have done I either paid for, or am not ashamed of, and several, including Marc, ain't done nearly as well.


You kids want to lie about someone, you had best pick on somebody that don't fight back.
Thieves, liars, con artists, drug dealers, shoplifters, and more. And most of it is on the internet already nowadays, isn't it? Well, if it ain't, it will be.




Then I am going to turn my considerable imagination towards the next pest that needs to face a little truth. I ain't done nothing like this in years, it will be GREAT fun giving in to my basic nature. I fought against that for WAY too long.

I don't care WHO you are, you don't get points from me by lying about who or what I am.



pathetic.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 16, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 16, 2010 - 11:17pm PT
Keep movin' folks. Nothin' left to see here...
jsavage

climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 16, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
there are some seriously bunched panties here. Too we didn't get more that on the Hottest Female Athlete thread.
Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 16, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
Damn I missed that thread!
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 17, 2010 - 12:56am PT
rather interesting that the bullies pick this particular thread topic to get all excited

Wonder

climber
WA
Oct 17, 2010 - 03:17am PT
I think its time for another monkey photo. They might need a hug.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
I'll be busy today so I won't be able to really post again until maybe late tonight.


Sure would like to see someone take up the challenge of finding the obvious massive boulder missing in the faked Apollo 15 image. And then point it out in the real Apollo 15, Apollo 17, and even Apollo 20 images. And why is this missing boulder so important? IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Can anyone do this? Has anyone figured this out yet? C'mon, is no fun just giving away the answer. I would really like someone to figure this out.

I'll be back later.



Whew. Seems like it finally calmed down here.
MisterAnswers

Social climber
Ark on the Moon
Oct 17, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
Mister Answers has another Answer:

The Question: Is it a bit lame for the OP to bump his own thread back to the front page just to tell the waiting throngs that he will be too busy to post to it today?

The Answer: Yes!
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 18, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
Still waiting for your "science" about Cintune's pic, Klimmer.
jsavage

climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
wasn't happy to see this thread back on the first page but thought I'd check to see if anyone has coughed up their underwear yet.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 19, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2010 - 03:18am PT
I didn't mean to make anyone wait so long, but I was hoping someone would point it out. Well, I Finally got around to it . . .


The image on the left is the official Apollo 15 image. I put the website url on the photo so it stays with it. The image on the right is the "unofficial" Apollo 20 image.

This is a stereo pair. You can examine it and see that all the detail lines up.

Keep in mind the Apollo 15 image on the left is taken at a very oblique angle from the Apollo craft fly-over pointing forward. You are seeing more of a profile of the craft. The 3 arrows point to very large Lunar boulders. The one the right is massive. Because this is such an oblique angle it foreshortens the distance between the boulders and the derelict spacecraft, making it appear as though the boulders are right adjacent to the craft. They are not, remember it is an oblique angle shot. The distance between the boulders and the craft are foreshortened.

The image on the right from "Apollo 20" is more of a vertical image looking down on the craft. You can see the 3 same massive boulders and realize they are indeed separate from the derelict spacecraft. They are the same 3 massive Lunar boulder structures. In stereo viewing all 3 boulders stick out very pronounced.

With this stereopair you can see it in 3D even though it is 2 different images of the same terrain and features but very different periods of time and sunlight and shadowing. Also you can close one eye and then the other and go back and forth comparing all features. Perfect match.

Original NASA images for stereoscopic viewing:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630






This image from Apollo 15 has been heavily altered. It is fraudulent. The only reason to do so is to hide the obvious massive spacecraft that is there near Iszak D craters. This is my opinion.

The photogrammetry is pretty clear. I really recommend viewing these images in 3D for added depth of field detail, and to see the boulders in obvious relief above the Lunar surface.






Another look in 3D:







Note the same massive boulders in the foreground as seen in the images above. All 3 massive boulders can be seen from a side profile . . .


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 20, 2010 - 04:52am PT
Here's a little exercise for you, cut the righthand AS20 shot and paste it on a different layer, then reduce the transparency to 50%, and then place it over the lefthand image registering on the 'ark'. Notice the skew on everything else in the picture - compare that skew with the skew in your colored stereo shot. Now, unless each of the stereo lens pair were on widely separated space shuttles I have a very hard time accounting for the dramatic amount of skew from the distance the shot was purportedly taken.


And in the comparison of the AS15 and AS20 photos you have it ass-backwards, the reverse is true in all three points. That and, given the sun is lower in the AS20 shot thus casting longer shadows, it makes the shadow line on the top of the 'ark' completely ridiculous as are several other shadows in the pic. Add those tidbits to the fact there was no AS20 Saturn launch and it's impossible to come up with any conclusion other that the AS20 shots are fakes in every respect.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2010 - 09:24am PT
HJ,


You are wrong in all respects.


I will post more images of the official Apollo 15 images at higher resolution (well, greater magnification actually) and you can clearly see all 3 boulders I'm talking about even better, when I have time. But they are there. And the same 3 boulders are in the "Apollo 20" images. They are not in the faked Apollo 15 image. Erased. Gone. Vanished.

You do not have to have 2 images completely rectified to see in 3D. The 2 stereoscopes I have (and most do this) allow for adjustments between both eyes lenses so you can see every part of the 2 images in 3D. Those 2 Apollo 20 images are taken from different angles, different Nadirs, etc. They will never overlay perfectly as a result, but the same exact detail is there in both, and you can view both in complete perfect 3D. You do not have to have perfect rectification to do so if you have an instrument that adjusts. Like I said, most instruments do. Learn something.


About the Sun angle and shadows, once again you are wrong in all respects.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 20, 2010 - 09:45am PT
Do you have any idea what a "stereo pair" is technically? A true stereo pair is shot by 2 coordinated cameras from slightly different angles at the same time. Not 2 images taken miles and years apart by 2 completely different spacecraft (if you accept that the "Apollo 20" mission happened at all...). As a "science" teacher, you must be aware that celestial bodies don't follow the exact same path and therefore will be subject to changes in lighting from the angle of the sun.

Furthermore, you are trying to mix apples and oranges by making this pair from an official image and an unofficial one. Yes, one is probably photoshopped, but you know which one I'll believe.

Edit: Here's how it's done correctly. And if you're going to tout your image's veracity, you need to show some scientific methodology that is reproducible.

How to do stereo photography

The technique is very simple - as outlined in the introduction above. Care must be taken to photograph the same sky (or scene as in your moon pics) with exactly the same settings and do the two exposures as soon as possible after each other (and we're not talking years here), in order to photograph the sky (or scene as in your moon pics) statically.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2010 - 11:40am PT
I don't have time to get into it at the moment, labs all day today, but can anyone chime in who knows before I blow Skept's arguments out of the water later when I do have the time?

How wrong you are Skept.

I can just hear it now, "He sunk my battleship of an arguement."

And it will be fun doing so.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 20, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
Here's some more 'fun' for you Klimmer.

Explain why the clearly seen features in the box below of the faked Apollo 20 pics looks nothing like the undisputed Apollo 15 pics.

This area is part of the area that is needed to be cleared and moved back in order to make the 'nose' more apparent and distinct from the natural ridge it was in.



That area looks totally different on the left below and in any of the other pics Klimmer, what gives?


So you see it's a fools game to compare small features in pics with different resolution and washout when there are larger features that point in the other direction.

The originator never intended these pics to be a hoax. He said they were to only excite the imagination, but conspiracy droids like yourself had their imagination excited as well.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Oct 20, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
Klimmer,

Have you considered that the government conspiracy is not to cover up the ark on the moon but to fake it just like the first moon landing was fake? It's a fake done by the government to trick you. Yes, you. And your falling for it.

I think "they" want to keep you from doing much of anything else and it's working pretty well from what I can see on this forum.

Dave
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
Skept, HJ, and Monolith:

I will get back. It is a busy day. You guys are making it easy for me.

Remote Sensing, Photogrammetry, and GIS are part of my degree.
I also worked in Environmental Consulting for 5 years working with aerials and mapping vegetation communities etc. day in and day out, before entering teaching. And I continue my Earth Science and Physics education as all teachers do. More GIS, and more Remote Sensing courses using ENVI etc.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.




Rectorsquid,

No point in me responding to childish responses or behavior.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 20, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
Sure Klimmer, show us the pic from the Apollo archives that clearly has those features.

Not some hashed up stereo pair image that only you can create and see.

And list the procedures you used step by step starting with the source images so anyone can repeat.

That is fundamental to the scientific method Klimmer.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 20, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
You clearly do not know what you are talking about

I, for one, look forward to something cogent and well-documented from you. I'm sure this will be spectacular!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Oct 20, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
Rectorsquid,

No point in me responding to childish responses or behavior.

I was not there when the photos were taken nor on the spacecraft that took the pictures. I must assume one of two conspiracies. One is a cover-up to keep me from knowing the truth about the ark on the moon. The other is someone trying to convince me that there is actually an ark on the moon when there is no ark. For all I know, you are involved in the conspiracy to convince people that this ark is real when you know that it is not real.

Shouldn't it be part of a conspiracy discussion to pose the idea that it is not the government hiding this stuff that is the conspiracy but actually all of those who say they saw this or took the pictures, who are conspiring?

From a complete outsider point-of-view, I have always wondered if all of the people who say they saw UFO's up close or got abducted were in on some big joke and trying to trick the rest of us for the fun of it. After all, they can't all be crazy in the same way. On the other hand, they could easily be in collusion.

Dave
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
In the 1970s and 1980s the mentality of the "War on Drugs" ensured that no research was done with psychedelics at all. The twenty year hiatus was ended in 1990 by Rick Strassman MD, a professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico, who conducted a DEA-approved study administering the powerful hallucinogen DMT (dimethyltryptamine) to human volunteers. At the end of the study, five years later, nearly all the volunteers reported that the DMT sessions had been amongst the most profound experiences of their lives. Intriguingly around 80 per cent also reported that DMT had transported their consciousness to seamlessly convincing parallel realms where they encountered and received teachings from intelligent non-human beings. In a number of cases the beings (sometimes construed as "aliens", sometimes as "spirits", sometimes as "angels", sometimes even as "elves" or fairies") stated they were pleased the volunteers had discovered "this technology" -- i.e. DMT -- since they would now be able to communicate with them more easily!
Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

I wonder if Klimmer and friends were some of the volunteers?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 20, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
It's interesting, I have heard the same from friends who have dabbled in DMT. The elves.... They say that your trip isn't successful if you don't find them.
Bad Climber

climber
Oct 20, 2010 - 08:00pm PT
Klimmer: Sorry if I missed this one, but have you done any cutting-edge work on cattle mutilations? I think that one needs your attention, too! Nothing like mangled cow lips to get me all hot and bothered.

BAd
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 20, 2010 - 08:12pm PT
Klimmer,

Since you must have or use or have used in the past WGEO 5.0 and other software on georeferencing,, geoimaging and coordinate transformation software, guess you have knowledge as well on interactive finite-element simulation system for modeling 3D and 2D flow, mass and heat transport processes in groundwater and vadose zone. Portion of Earth between the land surface and the zone of saturation like 600 meters+ below the surface.

yes! oops you kind of blew it on the end of the world 2012. Scratch one off the list.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 20, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
Photogrammetry...part of my degree...

Not sure how you did, but it doesn't sound like a good program if you did well because you're doing a poor job of interpretation on these.


Check out the shadowing and length of shadows in yellow. Amazing how with the lower sun azimuth of the AS20 photo that all the shadows grow longer except the one the 'ark' is in - it miraculously stays the same length as in the AS15 shot rather than being longer down to somewhere around the green line. The shadowing in the AS15 shot is entirely self-consistent versus in the AS20 shot where the shadowing is not and the shadow projections off the rim above the 'ark' should be burying it as well as crossing the upper hull as opposed to it being fully lit. For it to be completely out of the shadow it would have to be entirely floating in space above the ground with a very different shadow profile under it, though that would also be in the larger shadow projection of the rim above. Ridiculous in every respect.

Also, the ratio of various pairs of lines drawn between crater centers is different between the two photos. The AS20 photos are entirely shopped if not modeled.

That and, yet again, there was no AS20 Saturn launch.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 20, 2010 - 09:00pm PT
Nice catch, Andy!

So Klimmer's "source" is plagiarized from fish-wrap? Why am I not surprised?
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 20, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
Klimmer's esoteric sources revealed:

http://books.google.com/books/serial/ISSN:0199574X?rview=1&lr=&sa=N&start=0

Be afraid.

And stop giggling.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 20, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
Note also that a launch out of Vandenberg for a standard translunar injection would require an eastward launch which would have the Saturn first stage dropping over the US - messy business for a 'secret' launch. Vandenberg is used for polar orbit launches.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
I've lost track...
Oct 20, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
The Earth's most powerful particle collider near Geneva, Switzerland, will soon start smashing iron ions together in November 2010, to get closer to the quarks and gluons that make up protons and neutrons. So far, the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider (RHIC) at Brookhaven National Lab in New York has shown that quarks and gluons behave as if they are in a liquid soup, but what will happen at the higher LHC temperatures close to the beginning of the Big Bang? CERN's latest news bulletin says, “Parallel universes, unknown forms of matter, extra dimensions... These are not the stuff of cheap science fiction, but very concrete physics theories that scientists are trying to confirm with the LHC and other experiments.”

http://www.earthfiles.com/index.php?category=Headline+News
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 20, 2010 - 11:53pm PT
Klimmer's esoteric sources revealed:

Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, "Best troll post of the year, hands down!"
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 21, 2010 - 12:52am PT
BTW Klimmer, you never pointed to the boulders in the undisputed pics. You only pointed to them in the pic you dispute and the pic we dispute.

Need I remind you what you prommised:

Yes, by all means go to the original and zoom in as close as you want in both images. The natural feature is clearly visible in the originals but not in the altered faked image at the top of this post.



I'm not seeing them Klimmer. Will you please hold my hand.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:05am PT
Do you have any idea what a "stereo pair" is technically? A true stereo pair is shot by 2 coordinated cameras from slightly different angles at the same time. Not 2 images taken miles and years apart by 2 completely different spacecraft (if you accept that the "Apollo 20" mission happened at all...). As a "science" teacher, you must be aware that celestial bodies don't follow the exact same path and therefore will be subject to changes in lighting from the angle of the sun.

Furthermore, you are trying to mix apples and oranges by making this pair from an official image and an unofficial one. Yes, one is probably photoshopped, but you know which one I'll believe.

Edit: Here's how it's done correctly. And if you're going to tout your image's veracity, you need to show some scientific methodology that is reproducible.

How to do stereo photography

The technique is very simple - as outlined in the introduction above. Care must be taken to photograph the same sky (or scene as in your moon pics) with exactly the same settings and do the two exposures as soon as possible after each other (and we're not talking years here), in order to photograph the sky (or scene as in your moon pics) statically.



Skept,


Skept, Skept, Skept . . . you are making this too easy.


Do you have any idea what a "stereo pair" is technically? A true stereo pair is shot by 2 coordinated cameras from slightly different angles at the same time. Not 2 images taken miles and years apart by 2 completely different spacecraft

I'm pretty sure I do, since I've had many courses within my degree on just that, Remote Sensing, both with Aerial and Satellite imagery, GIS and Cartography etc. And many years of environmental consulting work experience doing just that -- looking at Aerial and Satellite images and mapping from them. And I continue to do so, as well as taking additional course work.

No you are wrong. There are several methods to do 3D imagery. Yes, one method is to use a camera system that takes 2 simultaneous images at the same temporal moment, and same light. Specifically these cameras are used for dedicated stereograms. These types were used for many years after the advent of photography, hence the many antique stereograms available that people collect of wonderful geography, both physical and cultural.

But did you know that you can make a stereogram with just one camera and a tripod? Heck you don't even need a tripod. Take a picture with your digital camera (or film camera) slide sideways a few feet, take the exact same image or at least overlap it about 70%, same composition and scale, make sure there isn't a lot of motion in the image, and voila, when you view it with a stereoscope you will see it in amazing 3D.

This last method is the way aerial images (B&W and Color) are created with high resolution 9" x 9" negative images. One camera, consecutive shots with about 70% overlap. These are called aerial photo flight lines. Watch the incredible DVD: "NGS - Taller Than Everest." Let the late Bradford Washburn take you through the science and art of Cartography and the making of the finest map of Mt. Everest ever. You will come away with a very good understanding and appreciation of the state of art in cartography. And you will then really appreciate the science and art of remote sensing, and how important stereo images are in the making of maps. One camera, many 100s of feet apart, 1000s of feet, or even miles apart with overlapping images. The AGL determines the best image separation distances. The higher AGL the greater the image separation distance.

Then there is the anaglyph method, the red and blue, taking 2 different overlapping images converting them to red and blue and separating them at the proper distance.

Then there are other techniques (many actually) . . . like using 2 frames from a film, DVD, or video, and screen capturing 2 immediate images that are very close in sequence to alleviate movement, but that significantly overlap from a close perspective. Bingo 3D.

The point is that those stereo images made from aerial or satellite images primarily made for mapping, geography, geology, astrogeology, and all the Earth Science purposes for interpretation and mapping etc. use the same technique as described above. One camera. Different times. Separated by a long distance, but overlapping usually by 70%. This is how it is done.


Not 2 images taken miles and years apart by 2 completely different spacecraft

Not true. We do it here on Earth all as well as other Planetary Bodies. We make stereograms from images from different cameras, different aircraft/spacecraft, even miles apart, as long as they are overlapping significantly and from nearly the same perspective, but it doesn't have to be exact, not even close. We can scale images from 2 different sources and it works very well.

We do temporal studies to see change with stereograms all the time. Same physical geography in the background, but perhaps the vegetation has changed or the water level has changed over THE YEARS etc.


So grab your stereoscope:

Here are many stereograms from the Moon . . . this is a very interesting study from the Apollo missions. You will even learn about stereoscopic images and how they are produced and their value . . .

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-362/cover.htm


And temporal studies with stereograms . . . view the terrain in 3D, then close one eye and see, then close the other eye and see the change. Temporal studies. There you go.

http://serc.carleton.edu/eyesinthesky2/week2/index.html



Edit: Here's how it's done correctly. And if you're going to tout your image's veracity, you need to show some scientific methodology that is reproducible.

Really? I've already proven you don't know what you are talking about. I don't think you know scientific methodology. I have always shared what I have done, no tricks ever.

How to do stereo photography

The technique is very simple - as outlined in the introduction above. Care must be taken to photograph the same sky (or scene as in your moon pics) with exactly the same settings and do the two exposures as soon as possible after each other (and we're not talking years here), in order to photograph the sky (or scene as in your moon pics) statically.

I think I know. This is just one way to make 3D images. There are many. But one way is often done for the Earth Sciences, and that is the way they did it with the Apollo missions, and the way I did it. It is allowable to overlap images separated by many years to view in 3D. Temporal studies. And in this respect, it is a perfect application. Apollo 15, Apollo 17, and yes "Apollo 20" images make perfect stereograms for studying and cross-comparing. That is exactly what I'm doing.

Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhh.


Furthermore, you are trying to mix apples and oranges by making this pair from an official image and an unofficial one. Yes, one is probably photoshopped, but you know which one I'll believe.

Nope. It is called comparative studies in space and time (temporal studies). That is exactly what you do. Open one eye then the other. Match up all detail. Are the images viewable in 3D? Yes they are. Does all the detail match? Yes it does. Until you start to do the comparative study as I have then you do not know.

That would be the purpose of the comparative study wouldn't it? To see if the Apollo 20 images are faked. So far, from what I can tell they are authentic. Same massive object and same Lunar physical geography. Different resolution, but a perfect match. Yes, it is hard to compare a low resolution image that is shot with a panorama camera, to a image taken with higher resolution and closer and a normal aspect lense, but it is possible. Just have to go back and forth, back and forth. In the Apollo 15 images and Apollo 17 images I see the same exact detail within the Apollo 20 image considering differences in resolution. So far perfect match over and over again.

To fake this with a massive detailed 3D model and then to shoot it matching the Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 images perfectly is really beyond reason, not to mention the cost and for what an interent hoax? Hardly. Is everything regarding Apollo 20 true? No. I've talked about that plenty.

So far, I do think the Apollo 20 images are real. Perfect match.





Edit:

I'm getting to you others. Please be patient and wait for your public flogging in due time. lol.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:41am PT
Photogrammetry...part of my degree...

Not sure how you did, but it doesn't sound like a good program if you did well because you're doing a poor job of interpretation on these.



http://www.supertopo.com/photos/5/29/174377_1703_L.jpg
Credit: healyje



Check out the shadowing and length of shadows in yellow. Amazing how with the lower sun azimuth of the AS20 photo that all the shadows grow longer except the one the 'ark' is in - it miraculously stays the same length as in the AS15 shot rather than being longer down to somewhere around the green line. The shadowing in the AS15 shot is entirely self-consistent versus in the AS20 shot where the shadowing is not and the shadow projections off the rim above the 'ark' should be burying it as well as crossing the upper hull as opposed to it being fully lit. For it to be completely out of the shadow it would have to be entirely floating in space above the ground with a very different shadow profile under it, though that would also be in the larger shadow projection of the rim above. Ridiculous in every respect.

Also, the ratio of various pairs of lines drawn between crater centers is different between the two photos. The AS20 photos are entirely shopped if not modeled.

That and, yet again, there was no AS20 Saturn launch.



HJ,


Thanks for showing to everyone that the images from Apollo 15 are taken with a panorama camera. It is not a normal aspect lense. Yes it elongates features.

And thanks for reconfirming that Apollo 15 image is a slightly different aspect and perspective than Apollo 20. I have said this over and over.


Check out the original source:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



Image Collection: Panoramic
Mission: 15
Magazine: P
Revolution: 38
Latitude / Longitude: 19° S / 117.5° E
Lens Focal Length: 24 inch
Camera Look: Forward
Camera Altitude: 117 km
Sun Elevation: 27°
Stereo Pair: AS15-P-9630
Film Type: 3414
Film Width: 5 inch
Image Width: 45.24 inch
Image Height: 4.5 inch
Film Color: black & white
Index Map: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/apolloindex/apollo15/as15indexmap01/
Feature(s): DELPORTE, SOUTHWEST OF
IZSAK, NORTH OF



Image Collection: Panoramic
Mission: 15
Magazine: P
Revolution: 38
Latitude / Longitude: 19° S / 117.5° E
Lens Focal Length: 24 inch
Camera Look: Aft
Camera Altitude: 117 km
Sun Elevation: 27°
Stereo Pair: AS15-P-9625
Film Type: 3414
Film Width: 5 inch
Image Width: 45.24 inch
Image Height: 4.5 inch
Film Color: black & white
Index Map: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/apolloindex/apollo15/as15indexmap01/
Feature(s): DELPORTE, SOUTHWEST OF
IZSAK, NORTH OF




Your shadow arguement is very, very wrong.

I'm tired. I'll argue later.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 21, 2010 - 03:48am PT
Bottom line? There was no S5/AS20 launch from Vandenberg in 1976 or ever - no launch, no pics (let alone no assembly building, no mobile launch platform, and no crawler). The AS20 photos are fakes and that can be determined by any number of methods - shadow projections, just plain bad shopping, bad crater relationship ratios, mismatched skews, and bad reproduction of the base scene.

P.S. The above comments in the post above related to AS15-P-9625 are entirely consistent with, and corroborated by, images AS15-M-1334, AS15-M-1335, AS15-M-1581, and AS15-M-1720 from the mission's non-panorama Fairchild mapping camera. Simply put, none of the shadowing or ratios in the AS20 photos stand up.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 10:02am PT

Bottom line? There was no S5/AS20 launch from Vandenberg in 1976 or ever - no launch, no pics (let alone no assembly building, no mobile launch platform, and no crawler). The AS20 photos are fakes and that can be determined by any number of methods - shadow projections, just plain bad shopping, bad crater relationship ratios, mismatched skews, and bad reproduction of the base scene.

P.S. The above comments in the post above related to AS15-P-9625 are entirely consistent with, and corroborated by, images AS15-M-1334, AS15-M-1335, AS15-M-1581, and AS15-M-1720 from the mission's non-panorama Fairchild mapping camera. Simply put, none of the shadowing or ratios in the AS20 photos stand up.


HJ,

Why do you just make up poo-poo? And you do so on the fly. You are very good at making up Bovine Dung.


Bottom line? There was no S5/AS20 launch from Vandenberg in 1976 or ever - no launch, no pics (let alone no assembly building, no mobile launch platform, and no crawler).


Bottom line. Not my story. I'm just relating it. Is it plausible? I think it is. Have you read the entire interviews with "retiredafb" and "Moonwalker1966delta"? I don't think so. They do go into some detail. Could it have possibly have been launched from Diego Garcia? That is a possiblity. It is mentioned in Luca's book which I'm sure you haven't read either. You are not even fair and balanced. You only look at the evidence you want to look at. Nothing else. You have an extrme biase from the get-go. You actually have to look at all sides to really get a sense of what is going on. You just have an immediate biase and say it's all fake. You can't even ask the question who would do the faking on such a grand scale or why?

Psuedo-intellectual. Debunker. You can't see anything this way.


The AS20 photos are fakes and that can be determined by any number of methods - shadow projections, just plain bad shopping, bad crater relationship ratios, mismatched skews, and bad reproduction of the base scene.



Once again. No critical thinking. No attempt to actually really compare the imges. You haven't even looked at all the stereo pairs and viewed it all in 3D. You are just making up stuff left and right. You really do not have a concept of image comparison. 3D will allow you to do this effeciently, yet you make no attempt to do so.

Even if you ignore all the Apollo 20 images you still have the 2 Apollo 15 stereopair images, and the 2 Apollo 17 stereo pair images that show the craft in perfect 3D along with the shadows. You can even see the boulders in the fore ground and the boulders of the rock-fall that some would like to say don't exist. It is clearly there in 3D relief. You now know how those stereo pairs were made. One camera. Different times. Seperated by long distances in the flight line. Purposefully made to overlap to be viewed in 3D, yet you make no effort to do so.

All you do is spew garbage and false observations all day long.


P.S. The above comments in the post above related to AS15-P-9625 are entirely consistent with, and corroborated by, images AS15-M-1334, AS15-M-1335, AS15-M-1581, and AS15-M-1720 from the mission's non-panorama Fairchild mapping camera. Simply put, none of the shadowing or ratios in the AS20 photos stand up.

No the shadows in all the images whether you are talking Apollo 15, Apollo 17, or Apollo 20 are consistant. Yes, the Apollo 20 images would be with the Sun Angle at less than 27 degrees above the horizon. You do realize that all sides of the Moon are illuminated from one horizon to the other, through 0 degrees to 90 degrees (the zenith) back to 0 degrees don't you? There is no constant darkside of the Moon, despite the wonderful name of a fantastic album by Pink Floyd.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 21, 2010 - 11:17am PT
You haven't even looked at all the stereo pairs and viewed it all in 3D

How many times do I have to tell you Klimmer, there is no stereo pair available for Cintune's pic. Thus, you cannot use 3d from stereo pairs to show that there is not a boulder in that pic.

Now point to these 'clearly visible' boulders in the undisputed pics from the Apollo archive. It's just a simple pic with arrows.

Surely someone with your skills can do this.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 21, 2010 - 11:44am PT
Yes, I concede that you know something about stereo pairs. Too bad you're allowing your beliefs to get in the way of your training.

Separated by a long distance, but overlapping usually by 70%.

See, this is wherein the problem lies. The one image is a "direct" fly over, but the other is taken from a low angle and is not at the center of the shot. You should know that the further away from the center of the image the subject in question and the greater the difference in camera settings/resolution/etc.is, the less reliable the point-to-point matching and therefore the more "massaging" that needs to be done to mash it all together. I know a bit about this too, you see. My dad was intimately involved in imaging studies at a certain institution in Pasadena as the major focus of his job there between 1957 and 1989.

I don't think you know scientific methodology

Hmm. Why don't we compare our scientific research publications? I've got 18, 3 of which I'm the first author (meaning I'm the "go to" guy for any questions that may arise) in first rate, peer reviewed journals such as Blood, Journal of Biological Chemistry, Journal of Immunology, American Journal of Pathology, & Leukemia Research. All about molecular biology as it relates to cell signaling in disease processes such as CLL, AIDS, Cystic Fibrosis & Myocardial Ischemia. I graduated with a B.S. in Zoology & Chemistry, worked in the lab for 12 years, was Technical Director of the Scripps Clinic GCRC Flow Cytometry Facility and will be receiving my Doctorate in 2 months. Scientific enough for you?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
Skept,

Ok, you know the medical field and your on your way toward your PhD (congratulations), but you do not know the wonderful field and powerful tool of Remote Sensing, and you're making serious and simple minded errors in your reasoning regarding it.

I gave you a wonderful source to view and you will realize how wrong you are. Watch the DVD, "NGS -- Taller Than Everest." It is a great watch and it will take you through a quick history of Cartography and Remote Sensing and how it was all used to make the most accurate map of Mt. Everest ever. It will take you through the importance of aerial photography and stereoscopic viewing. Cartography is a science. Remote sensing is a science. Without which we could not make the wonderful topographic maps we all use. And your guide will be Bradford Washburn, one of the most famous cartographers, oblique aerial photographers, and yes also a well known climber.

Cartography/Remote Sensing are both very powerful tools throughout the Earth Sciences, and they both heavily rely upon stereoscopic viewing.


Edit:
Trying to find the video that I have, not finding it now. Maybe it is no longer available? I converted my copy to a DVD. My Earth Science students see it before we launch into Cartography/Remote Sensing. Excellent primer.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/field/explorers/washburns/

Found it. It is actually a NOVA video with NGS.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/listseason/18.html

Taller Than Everest?
The tallest mountain in the world? Think again—cartographers had to when satellite date revealed a peak called "K2" might be the real champ. Which is the world's tallest mountain?
Original broadcast date: 11/05/91
Topic: geology

I'm not sure this video is available anymore. However, it is really good. It demonstrates the art and science of stereoplotting that is done to draw the contour lines interpolated between spot elevations. Glad I got it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 21, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
You want some remote sensing? Punch 7°18′48″S 72°24′40″E into Google maps and look at Diego Garcia. There's barely room for the airstrip, a few mobile homes, and the munitions bunkers. No assembly building, no crawler, no launch capability of any kind and there never has been. You can't come up with a launch, let alone get into the interpretation of obvious fakes.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 21, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
Let's see couple of hours before lunch time for Klimmer.

Klimmer

Asking question again: guess you have knowledge as well on interactive finite-element simulation system for modeling 3D and 2D flow, mass and heat transport processes in groundwater and vadose zone. Portion of Earth between the land surface and the zone of saturation like 600 meters+ below the surface.

You know the visualization of isosurfaces for mass concentration.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 21, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
Cartography/Remote Sensing are both very powerful tools throughout the Earth Sciences, and they both heavily rely upon stereoscopic viewing.

Agreed. But the pictures used for such analyses are taken specifically for each study, with the parameters exquisitely controlled to maximize congruency. The moon pics you're trying to get us to accept were not taken in that fashion, and therefore do not stand up to the rigors of scientific scrutiny.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:07pm PT
You want some remote sensing? Punch 7°18′48″S 72°24′40″E into Google maps and look at Diego Garcia. There's barely room for the airstrip, a few mobile homes, and the munitions bunkers. No assembly building, no crawler, no launch capability of any kind and there never has been. You can't come up with a launch, let alone get into the interpretation of obvious fakes.

HJ,

You are just repeating the same arguements over and over again. Apparently, you are omnipotent, you are all knowing. They couldn't ever get a Saturn V past you. You would have known about it. Bunk. Read what "retiredafb" had to say in regards to that. It is a plausible arguement that he reveals. He also describes what they had to do to launch East over the US. But you don't read anything other than what you want to read. They can fire a rocket at VandenburgAFB, you'll see it, but have no idea what it is or its mission. They can also do it at night when most people are asleep, and you would never be able to ID what exactly what kind of rocket it is even if you witnessed it at night. To say otherwise, you are just lying.

You haven't analyized any images. You haven't even taken the time to view everything that I have provided in 3D yet, nor dilgently cross-compared all of them. You can not fake 3D using one camera, 2 different images, 2 different times, with significant overlap, from slightly different perspectives. The object you see in 3D using these specific techniques do indeed have vertical relief and form.hey exist, and they are there. These are not computer generated fakes. Yes, you could do it with a massive 3D fake model, however, that is not what we have going on here. The images from Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 line-up and compare with Apollo 20, and are viewable in 3D, and match with all features. That is beyond chance faking with massive models of clay or what have you. Too amny subtle details match up over and over again.

The 3 boulders I have pointed out do indeed exist in the images from Apollo 15 and 17, yet you probably were not aware of them until I pointed them out. They are also in the apollo 20 images just where they need to be considering the more vertical aspect and perspective.

But once again those 3 boulders are not in the obvious faked Apollo 15 image because they removed them when someone went in to remove the craft and blend it with the Lunar regolith. I do not need another image to see that they have been removed. No outlines or shadows exist for the 3 removed boulders in the faked image.

We can do the same type study with the massive boulders in the rock fall region. I can do that. But it will take time. I'm not at home. I'm on lunch right now and that will take time. I'm not your slave. I do this because I want to and I'm interested in it. I want to know. It is a good puzzle to workout.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
Let's see couple of hours before lunch time for Klimmer.

Klimmer

Asking question again: guess you have knowledge as well on interactive finite-element simulation system for modeling 3D and 2D flow, mass and heat transport processes in groundwater and vadose zone. Portion of Earth between the land surface and the zone of saturation like 600 meters+ below the surface.

You know the visualization of isosurfaces for mass concentration.

SH,

Great you know Hydrology and groundwater or plume modelling.

My older sister is a geologist/hydrologist, and also my best-man in my wedding is a geologist/hydrologist.

Do I know the models you all use? No.

I do know a fair amount about Cartography, Remote Sensing, and GIS (ESRI: ArcGIS), but unless you use these tools day in and day out you will not know everything. ArcGIS Users know the education goes on for the rest of our lives. They are always taking courses to stay up with the changes. I do what I can.

So are we just gonna sit back and throw around our creds? I don't have time for that game.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 21, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
Ok Klimmer, a few questions if you would.

I LIKE that you are curious, and like to examine strange stuff.

I know NOTHING about imaging.

I DO see the cylinder thing in the photos.

You ASSUME it is an alien craft, you called it I believe, a Mother Ship.

Ok, MAYBE it is!

BUT, why is this your assumption? It is because you WANT it to be ALIEN?

WHY can't you assume it could just be a big rock, however shaped?

Hep me out on the logic behind the Alien assumption.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
Cartography/Remote Sensing are both very powerful tools throughout the Earth Sciences, and they both heavily rely upon stereoscopic viewing.

Agreed. But the pictures used for such analyses are taken specifically for each study, with the parameters exquisitely controlled to maximize congruency. The moon pics you're trying to get us to accept were not taken in that fashion, and therefore do not stand up to the rigors of scientific scrutiny.

Skept,

Once again you do not know what you are talking about. In the earth sciences, to include astrogeology, you can use one camera, 2 different times, even 2 different natural lighting conditions, that have significant overlap, and see the terrain detail in 3D. We do this all the time. Depends on what you want to see. If you just want an accurate 3D sense of the vertical relief and lay of the terrain, this is perfectly acceptable.

I even gave you sources to look at. The NASA Apollo image book below has many stereograms doing just that. Look for once before you spout off ignorantly.


So grab your stereoscope:

Here are many stereograms from the Moon . . . this is a very interesting study from the Apollo missions. You will even learn about stereoscopic images and how they are produced and their value . . .

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-362/cover.htm


And temporal studies with stereograms . . . view the terrain in 3D, then close one eye and see, then close the other eye and see the change. Temporal studies. There you go.

http://serc.carleton.edu/eyesinthesky2/week2/index.html

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 03:39pm PT
Norton,

See the very first post in this thread. This is not my story.

But now that I have looked into a great detail, I do think that yes, there is a massive mothership alien craft on the backside of the Moon.

Could it be Nephilim? Could be. That is a hypothesis. And that was not my original idea, I just agree with it. This hypothesis fits all that I know.
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 21, 2010 - 03:46pm PT
The 3 boulders I have pointed out do indeed exist in the images from Apollo 15 and 17, yet you probably were not aware of them until I pointed them out.

Er,um, you have never pointed them out in the originals. You've only used the arrows in Cintune's pic and the faked Apollo 20 pic.

Post em up Klimmer. You have said they are 'clearly visible' in the originals.

Should be a simple matter for you to show us the pics with arrows pointing to the boulders.

Label which ones are Apollo 15 and which ones are Apollo 17 and their identifier from the Apollo archives.

Remember, we don't have stereo pairs for Cintune's pic, so stereo pairs are useless for proving they are not there.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 21, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
Read Norton's question and reviewed the first post. Still don't get why the assumption it's an alien craft (particularly a huge jump to call it Nephalim) rather than some abnormality (like we have all over the earth)

Peace

Karl
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Oct 21, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
I still don't get it either. WHY does the FIRST assumption have to be ALIEN?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Oct 21, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
The NASA Apollo image book below has many stereograms doing just that.

Yes, but they're not trying to prove that there is an alien ship laying in ruins on the moon. That type of conjecture requires more rigor than what you're trying to have us believe. I'm reasonably certain I'm not the ignorant one in this exchange.

Of course, I'm arguing with someone who believes in alien devil-creatures...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 21, 2010 - 04:32pm PT
Mono,

I did show you. Zoom in on the Apollo 15 image.

I can do the same on Apollo 17 images.


Posted before:

The image on the left is the official Apollo 15 image. I put the website url on the photo so it stays with it. The image on the right is the "unofficial" Apollo 20 image.

This is a stereo pair. You can examine it and see that all the detail lines up.

Keep in mind the Apollo 15 image on the left is taken at a very oblique angle from the Apollo craft fly-over pointing forward. You are seeing more of a profile of the craft. The 3 arrows point to very large Lunar boulders. The one the right is massive. Because this is such an oblique angle it foreshortens the distance between the boulders and the derelict spacecraft, making it appear as though the boulders are right adjacent to the craft. They are not, remember it is an oblique angle shot. The distance between the boulders and the craft are foreshortened.

The image on the right from "Apollo 20" is more of a vertical image looking down on the craft. You can see the 3 same massive boulders and realize they are indeed separate from the derelict spacecraft. They are the same 3 massive Lunar boulder structures. In stereo viewing all 3 boulders stick out very pronounced.

With this stereopair you can see it in 3D even though it is 2 different images of the same terrain and features but very different periods of time and sunlight and shadowing. Also you can close one eye and then the other and go back and forth comparing all features. Perfect match.

Original NASA images for stereoscopic viewing:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630






This image from Apollo 15 has been heavily altered. It is fraudulent. The only reason to do so is to hide the obvious massive spacecraft that is there near Iszak D craters. This is my opinion.

The photogrammetry is pretty clear. I really recommend viewing these images in 3D for added depth of field detail, and to see the boulders in obvious relief above the Lunar surface.


monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Oct 21, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
Sorry, Klimmer, I can't see those 'clearly visible' boulders in the Apollo 15 pic below.


Seriously Klimmer, those arrows point to 'clearly visible' boulders?

Are you freaking kidding me? That's your proof?

I see prominent craters in the Apollo 20 pic, not visible in the Apollo 15 pic. (as well as those inserted features above the 'nose').

And I see prominent features in the Apollo 15 pic not visible in the Apollo 20 pic.

You can at least take the image from the archive directly and zoom deeper than that instead of using some guys photobucket account.

And where are those Apollo 17 shots? You say they are visible there as well.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Oct 21, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 21, 2010 - 05:56pm PT
Looking at the bright side, all the time and energy Klimmer and his fellow travelers waste here at least ensures that they have less time and energy to inflict their crackpot ideas on others. We're a noble self-sacrificing diversionary tactic, preventing them from wreaking real harm on the world. And if it helps them with their martyr complexes, or prevents them from cutting themselves with Occam's Razor, whatever.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 21, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
No Klimmer,

Just wanted to know an answer and pretty much gave it to me: If I needed to know where to find a street, let’s say Hollywood and Vine in Hollywood, guess could call you how to find it.

What was that you said “critical thinking?”

You had mentioned about Gov. Conspiracy on not giving or holding back on new technology for energy. Using that model will help you understand ways to store thermal energy. Someone else in this thread or one of your other conspiracy threads had said that it needed to be manageable. He was right “Thermal Energy Storage for Efficiency and Sustainability”. Housing and structures being net zero efficient. Good examples in EU, Eastern Canada and a couple of here in the US.

There was a guy and his son on the news the other day. They sent up a balloon and on the end of it a phone with GPS, protected it from thermal shock, went into space, balloon pops and they retrieved using the GPS. Nice video. Maybe you could do the same and see if one of your UFO’s will try to come close enough to it so you could prove there is something out there.

Why don’t you use your time in thinking of solving problems rather than playing or posting your silly games? Some else in this or other one of your posts said you like the abuse you receive, think he is right. You get off or high from it.

Halloween is coming up make sure you take some valium just before the kids knock on the door.

By the way wonder what ever happened to that guy "Doug" from Alaska, think government snatched him?

cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 21, 2010 - 06:40pm PT
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 21, 2010 - 06:43pm PT
NASA scientists report that analysis of the results of the impact of the LCross probe near the south pole of the Moon, about a year ago, show that there is a significant amount of water (ice) there.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/22/science/space/22moon.html?hp

Probably not enough to float klimmer's imaginary boat, though.
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 21, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
Oh, yeah, and why doesn't Klimmer mention what's on the ark?


This is a verified Apollo 20 picture, too.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Oct 21, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
It's Ok Klimmer

I am sick/crazy as well since I responding to your posts.

Just waiting for "who" is going to next on "American Idol"
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 22, 2010 - 09:53am PT
When I can over the weekend (time allowing), I will try to post an up close stereopair using the Apollo 15 images, the Apollo 17 images, and even the unofficial apollo 20 images.

I will point out the 3 boulders in the foreground, and the rocks within the rock-fall for comparison. This will take time.


So until then enjoy some Major Tom.


Major Tom - Peter Schilling Extended version (coming home) HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsN3icByqUo
Major Tom Nasa HD (Single, Complete Version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTht_wPwAaw&feature=related




So fess-up. Who among you were Major Matt Mason fans? I was big-time. Just recently purchased a Major Matt Mason and his Martian alien friend off of Ebay. I had the whole set-up growing up, and watched the Apollo missions and Moon landing and walk. Great memories.



Tom Hanks circles 'Major' toy story
Universal developing live-action 'Matt Mason'
By MICHAEL FLEMING
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118001618.html?categoryid=13&cs=1

EXCLUSIVE: Graham Yost Launches Off with Major Matt Mason
http://www.movieweb.com/news/NEgADnhoWIUykj

Tom Hanks is Major Matt Mason
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NX8kI_F6_c

Major Matt Mason -The Motion Picture
http://discoveryenterprise.blogspot.com/2009/03/major-matt-mason-motion-picture.html



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2010 - 04:09am PT

The Planetary Society Blog

LCROSS finds lots of water in accessible places at the Moon's south pole --but we'll have to tread carefully
Oct. 21, 2010
http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00002728/

It is an "opportunity for the future": an intentional crash landing onto a permanently shadowed crater on the Moon has produced evidence of large deposits of water. And that's not all. The water is accompanied by other volatile materials like ammonia, formaldehyde, and mercury. It is most likely held within a "fluffy" lunar soil that would be easy for future explorers to dig into. And these deposits probably extend beyond the Moon's permanently shadowed spots into "permafrost" deposits in sunlit regions that would be much more benign environments for exploration by robots or humans than the cold, shadowed places. All in all, the Lunar CRater Observation and Sensing Satellite (LCROSS) has both achieved its goal of confirming the long-theorized presence of water at the lunar poles and revealed the polar regions to be enticing prospects for both human exploration and scientific discovery.

. . .


This map shows that places on the Moon are very, very cold. 100 Kelvin would be cold enough to trap water for billions of years. But there's at least one spot that's only 29 Kelvin, which is the coldest place ever directly measured in the solar system. (Such temperatures are theorized to exist in places like the Kuiper belt but have not actually been directly measured.) So water's not the only thing that's stable for billions of years; many other things are too, what Paige called "supervolatiles," stuff that's even more ready to vaporize than water. These materials include methanol, ammonia, sulfur dioxide, formaldehyde, carbon dioxide, and hydrogen sulfide. If this list sounds familiar, that's because they are the sort of simple hydrogen, oxygen, sulfur, nitrogen, and carbon compounds that form the "building blocks" of two important things: all the cold stuff in the solar system (like comets, the polar caps of terrestrial planets, the surfaces and interior oceans of icy worlds) and, of course, the chemistry for life on Earth. The idea that this stuff is present at the poles of the Moon, until relatively recently thought of a baked-dry world, is pretty exciting.




Yes, probably not enough to float a boat, but surely enough to get excited about. Way cool.

It will be a nasty environment (Mercury and Formaldehyde etc). Like they say tread lightly.


But Major Matt Mason could handle the mission. :-))


Major Matt Mason commercial ( Mattel 1968 )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R99hAG0tgkg

Major Matt Mason - toy commercial
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA1Cvx-XyTs
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 25, 2010 - 12:32am PT
hate to post to this thread, but, perhaps Klimmer should move to Colorado?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/us/politics/24petition.html

Last year, Mr. Chavez worked a campaign to get an initiative on Denver’s ballot that would create an “extraterrestrial affairs commission” so residents would be ready for potential encounters with aliens. The measure will go to Denver voters next month.

Hey Klimmer, you're slackin'! why didn't you do this in California?
http://www.extracampaign.org/

here's an opposition response

http://www.denveretcommission.org/
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 25, 2010 - 12:36am PT
Ed, more than 24 hours without any of these threads on the front page...

Now look what you have done!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2010 - 12:58am PT
Too funny Ed. lol.



Jeff Peckman on Letterman June 10, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-vVgbeNE-Q&feature=related


JP, he seems like a nice guy.



However, you wouldn't want me on a UFO/ET public delegation team. I'd have them answer a series of test questions and then in no time I would have them identified as frauds (ET wannabees). They wouldn't like me. I'd ask them to go back to the pit of Hades where they came from, but leave the keys to the flying saucer.

I would also ask them to stop the abductions and probing. That is rape no matter what part of the universe you come from.

No they won't like me.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2010 - 02:18am PT
The movie Moon looks good. Haven't seen it yet.

I 'll have to put it on my Netflix queue.

"Moon":
http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/moon/trailer
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2010 - 02:17am PT
Aliens must have come back for the world series with a stop out west to knock out only a portion of our nukes for a few minutes. If they'd do the job right they wouldn't have to keep coming back. And please, explain the concept of 'full coverage' to them.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Oct 27, 2010 - 02:31am PT
Damn, that does look pretty good.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 27, 2010 - 02:34am PT
Sam did a fabulous job in Moon - a real one-man show.
Cole

Trad climber
los angeles
Oct 27, 2010 - 02:56am PT
Ya, Moon is awesome, Sam Rockwell is a great actor. Randomly watched an old Tim Allen movie called Galaxy Quest with my mom and uncle last night. Rockwell has a supporting role and was cracking me up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 28, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
Charlie Chaplin caught an alien time traveler with a cellphone!

http://idle.slashdot.org/story/10/10/28/1545230/1928-Time-Traveler-Caught-On-Film?from=rss
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Oct 28, 2010 - 11:27pm PT
There is something in her hand. And the object in her hand is...

An early model Siemens hearing aid. [siemens.com] While they gave a great boost in hearing quality, they tended to have feedback whine issues. You may notice that the person's mouth doesn't move until right at the end. Likely she is reacting to a feedback, possibly caused by someone yelling at her to "GET OUT OF THE SHOT YOU OLD BAG!"

2 million people suckered in by this vid gone viral, if only that many people accepted the evidence which already proves the existence of .... well never mind, I give up with those of you who can't even see the nose on your face
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 30, 2010 - 12:53am PT
That guy, could do the wyde with pride!
Mimi

climber
Oct 30, 2010 - 12:56am PT
I'm counting on aliens saving our asses.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
Just taking a break from ST for a few days.

How many of you are watching Jesse Ventura's Conspiracy Theory on TruTV?

I am.

It's good. Makes me think a lot. Jesse is a true American and very brave for taking this on. Someone has to. Jesse Ventura is a whole lot smarter than a lot of people give him credit for. Watch a few of his programs and read his book and this becomes very clear.

The dark inner secret core of the US government is truly corrupt.

It's very sad to come to realize this and to come to this truth.

Before we can pull out the beam in another country's eye, we have to first pull out the Giant Sequoia size beam from our own. America has issues with telling the truth and abiding by The Golden Rule. We are truly corrupt.


Conspiracy Theory Jesse Ventura - Area 51 (1/4)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/58923/Conspiracy_Theory_Jesse_Ventura___Area_51__1_4_/

Conspiracy Theory Jesse Ventura - Area 51 (2/4)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/58924/Conspiracy_Theory_Jesse_Ventura___Area_51__2_4_/

Conspiracy Theory Jesse Ventura - Area 51 (3/4)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/58926/Conspiracy_Theory_Jesse_Ventura___Area_51__3_4_/

Conspiracy Theory Jesse Ventura - Area 51 (4/4)
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/58927/Conspiracy_Theory_Jesse_Ventura___Area_51__4_4_/





Jesse's show is really hitting it out of the park. It is very popular, and his book American Conspiracy got to number 4 on the NY Best Seller list.
http://www.kepplerspeakers.com/Jesse_Venturas_Book_American_Conspiracies_Debuts_at_6_on_the_New_York_Times_Best_Seller_List.aspx

http://www.trutv.com/shows/conspiracy_theory/index.html


cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Oct 31, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
Yep, just like it. Faked photos. BFD indeed.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 31, 2010 - 06:20pm PT
Another stealth launch from Vandenberg around 7:20 tonight.
WBraun

climber
Oct 31, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
How about John Hutchison and the Hutchison Effect

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
Rendlesham Forest UFO Tape Released by British
November 4, 2010
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-515353?ref=feeds%2Flatest


iReport — One of the most famous UFO events in history was recorded on audio by U.S. military officials searching through the forest for a UFO. The eerie event took place 30 years ago and the audio tapes are just now being released.

The tape begins with an American noting that local farm animals were behaving strangely.
He says: "They're very, very active, making a lot of noise.
"Straight ahead. There it is again. Straight ahead. What is it? A strange, small red light.
"It looks maybe half a mile further ahead. There is no doubt about it, it is a strange flashing red light ahead."
He continues: "I saw a yellow tinge in it too. Weird. It's coming this way. It's definitely coming this way.
"There is no doubt about it - this is weird."
The servicemen were led by Colonel Charles Halt, of the local US Air Force Bentw#ters base.
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
The minute the skeptics show up demanding the "proof" the "proof" will not appear.

The "proof" always maintains it's superiority over all.

The "proof" will only appear to those whom are actually worthy ......
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
And you are like a literary Herman Goering.

The "Final Solution" according to MH

Kill all those who only post non-climbing by banning them.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
Bigger trees in the past were just bigger trees.

Oxygen levels in the Cretaceous were north of 25% and possibly 30%
compared to the current 21%. That'll git ya growing better than Barry Bonds' juju juice.

Professor Andrew C Scott from Royal Holloway says the periods of high oxygen concentration were times of major change in the evolution of vegetation on land, with the evolution and spread of new plant groups - the conifers in the late Carboniferous and flowering plants in the Cretaceous.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 6, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
The "proof" will only appear to those whom are actually worthy ......

Just like holds magically appear when you're runout staring at a blank wall. Right, got that. Clearly it's really only a 5.18c (if you're worthy).
Abenda

climber
Nov 6, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
The "proof" is only in your own thoughts about reality.
WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
This "proof positive" that you guys have no good brain.

I never established what "proof" represented.

You all just assumed and speculated it pertained to some subject matter and projected your run away minds onto what you assumed "proof" really stood for.

And ... you guys have logic and reason????

YOU HAVE BEEN OWNED .....

heh heh
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Nov 6, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
The Weinstein Company is funding Apollo 18, the Timur Bekmambetov-produced thriller about a never-was Apollo mission's encounter with extraterrestrials.

http://io9.com/5683406/timur-bekmambetovs-apollo-mission-vs-aliens-movie-gets-off-the-ground

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
Cintune,

Wow, good find.

Two movies coming out:

Dark Moon and Apollo 18

The Fourth Kind screenwriter's new film: Cloverfield on the Moon
Dark Moon:
http://io9.com/5668015/the-fourth-kind-screenwriters-new-film-cloverfield-on-the-moonv

Weinsteins Land Timur Bekmambetov's Surprise Alien Pic 'Apollo 18'
http://www.deadline.com/2010/11/weinsteins-land-timur-bekmambetovs-surprise-alien-pic-apollo-18/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
Mystery Missile Launch Seen off Calif. Coast
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4607709

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/09/national/main7036716.shtml


Wow, I feel safer already.

Interesting that someone from Vanderburg AFB pipes in and has a say in the responses to this article.


I would have to agree to the responders of this article at DU. The DoD wanted us to see this, as well as the rest of the world. But of course our Military isn't talking. Mums the word.

Ala, . . .

"What Area 51? What are you talking about? There isn't anything there," kinda response from the DoD.

Gees, Cold War all over again.

It is getting chilly. I'm going to go put on a sweater.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2010 - 12:20am PT
More on new movie Dark Moon . . .




New Hollywood movie on secret Apollo moon mission discoveries;


Fourth Kind Director Exploring Dark Moon;
Source: The Hollywood Reporter;
October 18, 2010
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1059340395

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=70868

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 18, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
bunch of idiots say that their discoveries and "science" work could lead to STARSHIPS. WHAT a BUNCH of IDIOTS!


What a pile of jackasses must be those guys at CERN!

Did you even read the article, Rox? They didn't interview any of the researchers at CERN who worked on this or knew anything about it. They interviewed two people, neither of which is connected to CERN.

Instead, the claim about starships is from ONE person, an author of a sensationalistic book. The only other person they quote snorts at this and says "Don't hold your breath!" In other words, "Don't be an idiot!"
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 18, 2010 - 09:59pm PT
Don't get your panties in a bunch or start booking flights. Antimatter propulsion is nothing new and the big stumbling block to it is still a matter of [energy] yield. Producing antihydrogen is staggeringly expensive - note the near term maintenance bulletin for the LHC:

On December 6, the LHC will be shut down for servicing and to avoid draining electricity in the depths of winter from the energy networks of France and Switzerland along whose border CERN lies.

So, yeah for the electrical output of a couple of nations you can buy a few atoms of antihydrogen. You do get a lot of bang with antimatter, but not necessarily bang for the buck relative to production costs. And even with the most efficient forms of antimatter propulsion envisioned - antiproton-catalyzed microfission (ACMF) / antiproton initiated microfission / fusion (AIM) you're still talking about lifetimes to get anywhere in terms of interstellar travel:

Using 30-130 micrograms of antimatter, an unmanned AIM-powered probe – AIMStar – would be able travel to the Oort Cloud in 50 years,
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Nov 24, 2010 - 05:30pm PT

http://io9.com/5698495/first-apollo-18-poster-theres-a-reason-weve-never-gone-back-to-the-moon


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
HHhhhhhhhhmmmmmmm. Something is up. Could be interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4637877





IMPORTANT NASA to Reveal 'Astrobiology Discovery' Thursday
Source: NASA

November 30, 2010 - Aliens are a terrifying yet exciting prospect. We've all seen Smallville. We can't be the only ones out there. There has to be other planets, other people, other life forms, right? Sure, we're not expecting them all to look like Clark Kent or the charming Kara, but we'd like to know for sure that they're out there.

Well, it probably won't be as exciting as uncovering an advanced civilization of beings not too different from us, but NASA says it's got an 'astrobiology discovery' to share with us all on Thursday afternoon. To say we are excited would be a huge understatement. However, NASA does say that this discovery will 'impact the search for evidence of extraterrestrial life.' Close encounters are getting closer, guys!

Here it is, straight from the Space Agency's mouth:

NASA will hold a news conference at 2 p.m. EST on


Thursday, Dec. 2, to discuss an astrobiology finding that will impact the search for evidence of extraterrestrial life. Astrobiology is the study of the origin, evolution, distribution and future of life in the universe.


The news conference will be held at the NASA Headquarters auditorium at 300 E St. SW, in Washington. It will be broadcast live on NASA Television and streamed on the agency's website at http://www.nasa.gov

Read more:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2010/M10-110.html




Space

'Life as we don't know it' discovery could prove existence of aliens
NASA has sent the internet into a frenzy after it announced an "astrobiology finding" that could suggest alien life exists – even on earth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8174040/Life-as-we-dont-know-it-discovery-could-prove-existence-of-aliens.html


Mono Lake Connection in the above story.


Who here has snorkelled Mono Lake?

I have.

The tip of my tongue was chemically burnt for a month or more afterwards. Still very fun swimming and diving around those Tufa formations. Very cool. I would like to do it again.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
One of the participants is a specialist in the role minerals play in the development of life and photosynthesis. I'd say someone must have gotten a signature hit of some sort on Mars or one of the moons of Jupiter or Saturn that confirms biological activity. Would have to be a very high probability for them to announce this way after the fiasco announcement of microbial 'fossils' in Martian rocks. I'd personally be amazed if we hadn't come up with 'proof-of-[bacterial]-life' now or in the very near future. I wouldn't get my hopes up for aliens, however.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 2, 2010 - 09:32am PT
My prediction for today's NASA announcement:

It will have to do with the possibility of microbial life on mars.

All the evidences for possible microbial cryptoendolithic life on Mars are stacking up. I have made lists of this exhaustive evidence before. There is mucho.

Wouldn't the announcement be a great cover to get away from all the bad news of the Wikileaks (leaks) and the massive embarrassment that corrupt public servants within our government are feeling?

"Hey, look over here!! Wow! Cool. Life on Mars! Looky! Looky!
Ignore the embarrassed man behind the curtain hiding please."


By the way, definitive proof of microbial life of anykind on Mars would be solid empirical proof of Aliens. Maybe not of the intellectual kind, but it would be Alien no doubt.

So there. We'll see.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 2, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
It's about the discovery in Mono of a bacterial strain that exists in an environment largely consisting of arsenic and very little phosphorus - doesn't seem like such a big deal but it is.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 2, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
It's about the discovery in Mono of a bacterial strain that exists in an environment largely consisting of arsenic and very little phosphorus - doesn't seem like such a big deal but it is.
Hey, in terms of life in hostile environments, that's nothing much. Just look at all the whackjob conspiracy nuts, neocons, and religious idiots who manage to survive on SuperTopo.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 2, 2010 - 02:31pm PT
Anyway, here's the actual news, minus Klimmer's hyperbole. About a bacterium from Mono Lake which has been trained to eat arsenic instead of phosphorus.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/science/03arsenic.html?hp
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
haha--NASA's sucker punch.

they've got a germ in mono lake that they can feed a lot of arsenic to and "very little phosphorus".

checking the periodic table of elements, guess which mineral is right below phosphorus in the same column, indicating similar combinant properties?

they seem to open the possibility, in one of their reports, that this may actually have evolved over the past 50 years with the diversion of fresh water from mono lake and the subsequent concentration of desert minerals.

taking this two-year-old news and making a public relations fart out of it?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14537-arseniceating-bacteria-rewrite-evolutionary-history.html

and you guys think klimmer is bad.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
zzzzzzzz...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
Tony,

Great find. These Arsenic eating bacteria from Mono Lake is a discovery and published in a journal over two years ago!

Why all the hype now? What is going on? Perhaps it w s just to try to pull some attention from Wikileaks.

Weird.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
Jeezus F*#king Christ, of all the nutiness...

Yes, I'm sure the Illuminati concocted the timing to divert attention from Wikileaks (Public sez, "who cares?") to strange bacteria in Mono lake(Public sez, "who cares?" again!).

To you everything is a complex conspiracy by the bogeyman, isn't it?
WBraun

climber
Dec 6, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
You're starting to lose it Dirtbag.

LOL

Don't lose your cool over any of this stuff, it's definitely not worth it.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 6, 2010 - 06:58pm PT
OK, ok, you're absolutely right. Thanks for the reminder.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 6, 2010 - 07:15pm PT
Tony,

Great find. These Arsenic eating bacteria from Mono Lake is a discovery and published in a journal over two years ago!

Why all the hype now? What is going on? Perhaps it w s just to try to pull some attention from Wikileaks.

Weird.

What they released at the news conference and what was published two years ago is not the same thing--they both have to do with biological utilization of arsenic by bacteria, but other than that it's apples and oranges. The discovery two years ago was that a bacterium used arsenic in place of H2O in a particular stage of photosynthesis. The new discovery is a bacterium that can use arsenic in place of phosphorus (including in its DNA). This is huge, and not a rehash of what is in the link Tony posted from two years ago.

Klimmer, if you are really a science teacher, it's weird that you fail t realize that. Tony admits to not being mathematically or scientifically literate-woodwork and folklore are more his thing. But anyone with a science background should have realized at once that it is a new discovery and that it is very significant.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
so we got two bacto's subbing arsenic for phosphorus, one in a lab, one in the bottom of mono lake? they did it in the lab in a couple years, the bacto's did it on their own in 50? still huge?
monolith

climber
Berkeley, CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
You missed the DNA part, Tony.

And we were told by the cdroids that wikileaks was a diversion from the missile. Now they say the arsenic story is a diversion from wikileaks. Focus boyz, focus.
jsavage

climber
Bishop, CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
I was hoping the Massive Ark photoshopped in Mono Lake.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 6, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
I wonder if Klimmer's ark would float in Mono Lake?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 6, 2010 - 08:37pm PT
so we got two bacto's subbing arsenic for phosphorus, one in a lab, one in the bottom of mono lake? they did it in the lab in a couple years, the bacto's did it on their own in 50?

No. Read the link you posted again. Then read http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2010/1202/How-does-an-arsenic-based-life-form-work-exactly

still huge?

Yes, this is huge. The first one was small fry just hinting at what might be possible. The new discovery is the big one.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 6, 2010 - 09:18pm PT
arsenic subs for phosphorus in arsenic-rich environment. (wake up, dirtbag, this is exciting!)

bacterium beats old lace.

ET is an elderberry wino.

sorry, granite--the influence of folklore.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
GC,

I will admit that I did not read the article published 2 years ago. I just saw the link posted by Tony, clicked on it and took a very quick look.

OK, yes I do realize they are different discoveries now. Thank you. I do realize that the latest discovery as explained by Mary is very significant.

However, it was indeed discovered that it could use Arsenic in place of Phosphorus in a lab. Significant yes, but not found in nature to have done so. Possibly yes in the past? Or possibly in the future? But not affirmed. Proves Life can truly evolve, and adapt and do it fast. Life can hang-in by a thread, especially extremophile life forms.

I was hoping for verification of Alien cryptoendolithic microbial life forms from Mars.

It's coming. Too much evidence is pointing that way. Dr. Levin's 1976 Viking 2, Controlled Release experiment that was very well designed, and very accurate was positive for the metabolism for life. Then they cooked the soil and then nothing. The follow-up experiment that was negative, was a very flawed experiment.

Life is on Mars. Life was on Mars. Past Oceans. Minerals and rocks formed in the presence of H2O. Current H2O in ice form, even glacial ice buried under the sands of Mars, and even in H2O droplet form at times. Temperate temperatures at times in Mars summer (70+F). Low pressure CO2 rich atmosphere. Erosion events. Weather events. Massive methane releases into Mars atmosphere in the warm season in several regions on Mars. Fossil nano-magnetite bio-morph crystals found within ALH84001 meteorite. The latest Dr. McKay, NASA study has pretty much confirmed the only way these could have been formed are by life. They invalidated non-living means of formation for these nanocrystals leaving really only formation by life.

It is only a matter of time. We will positively find it on Mars. (I think we have already, but NASA is just holding back).



The idea that they did this announcement to distract from wikileaks was not a serious comment. I suppose I should have placed a LOL or (sarcasm) tag. Sometimes I am not serious. Really I mean it. C'mon really truly I mean it. C'mon really . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2010 - 10:29pm PT
Very interesting video posted on the going to Mars thread by another STer:

Penelope Boston says there might be life on Mars

http://www.ted.com/talks/penelope_boston.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 6, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
mars has lots of water

perhaps more than earth

near the surface at the poles

not so deep even at the equator

ice covered with red dust

as you go deeper it gets warmer

perhaps large underground oceans

it breaks out in occasional flash floods that we have seen from canyon walls

we find life forms in such places deep in the earth

how odd is it to live on the outer surface of spaceship earth?

do you usually sit on the roof of your house or ride on the hood of your car or out on the wing of an airplane?

yeah, i too like the sunshine as an energy source and prefer rock climbing to spelunking

but living inside the planet using geothermal heat source may be the more common paradigm
cintune

climber
the Moon and Antarctica
Dec 6, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 7, 2010 - 03:14am PT
how odd is it to live on the outer surface of spaceship earth?

do you usually sit on the roof of your house or ride on the hood of your car or out on the wing of an airplane?

Unconvincing analogy to compare the earth to hollow manmade vehicle and the surface of the earth to the hood of a car or the wing of an airplane. If you must use a spaceship metaphor for the earth, the upper atmosphere is our "roof."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2010 - 05:11pm PT
Well, the Mothership (or Ark) on the backside of Moon is filled with Transformers. Steven Spielberg is the executive producer.

Looks good. Trailer looks interesting . . .

Transformers: Dark of the Moon

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/262-new-transformers-trailer-rewrites-moon-landing-history


Apparently Pink Floyd reunited to do the soundtrack. You heard it here first. Lol.









(The last comment about PF was a joke.)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2010 - 06:02pm PT
Here is another Alien movie coming out. Looks good.

Cowboys & Aliens Trailers & Video Clips (1 video)
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1810159817/video/23073546
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2010 - 03:20am PT
Went and saw Tron in 3D at the theater. One of the previews was Transformers: Dark of the Moon. Saw the preview in 3D. Apollo astronauts on a clandestine official mission, discover a massive alien mothership on the backside on the Moon, now that is just too deja-vu-ish. Been there done that! Lol. That whole scene of the movie looks very cool. Fun to watch.

Reading Leslie Kean's new book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record . Very important book and well written.
http://ufosontherecord.com/



New Zealand's Military Declassifies UFO Files
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x538193
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B82tiKjy3Eg

Files just released by New Zealand's air force have revealed dozens of suspected UFO sightings.

Al Jazeera English's Suranjana Tewari reports.

Article on this in LBN: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4669396

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/ufo-files-made-public-3982133

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 17, 2011 - 12:30am PT
This is better posted here.


Mona Lisa (in 3D glory) on the farside of the Moon via Apollo 20, is she real or is she an elaborate hoax or fraud?

Enquiring minds want to know . . .



















It certainly has inspired Hollywood with 2 movies soon to come to a movie theater near you.


http://www.apollo18movie.net/

http://www.transformersmovie.com/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2011 - 10:20pm PT
Very important new interview with Michael Schratt about what our government has been up to technology wise . . .

Project Camelot: Michael Schratt, 2nd Part Interview, “Code Blue”
http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/michael_schratt_part_two/michael_schratt_part_two.html

3 important books mentioned in the interview:

Tapping the Zero Point Energy [Paperback]
Moray B. King
http://www.amazon.com/Tapping-Zero-Point-Energy-Moray/dp/1931882002/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I35TLNE46EEU73&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Roswell and the Reich: The Nazi Connection [Paperback]
Joseph P. Farrell (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Roswell-Reich-Connection-Joseph-Farrell/dp/1935487051/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IJ35VA7IZTOHU&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

The Day After Roswell [Mass Market Paperback]
Philip Corso (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Day-After-Roswell-Philip-Corso/dp/067101756X/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IQ164DZQ76KFQ&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



This is new also. I do not know what to make of this but rumors abound again . . .

National Chinese Media Reports Upcoming UFO Disclosure By Obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x546834
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd6w7eOyPRY

http://www.examiner.com/exopolitics-in-seattle/chinese-national-tv-reporting-impending-ufo-et-disclosure-by-obama-government

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2011 - 10:52pm PT
Upcoming Alien Movies soon at a theater near you.

Do you ever get the feeling they are trying to tell us something?

Aliens are cute, funny, and adorable . . .

Paul the Movie:
http://www.paulthemovie.co.uk/
http://paul.the-movie-trailer.com/

Mars Needs Moms:
http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/marsneedsmoms/#home



Aliens are bad with evil intentions and must be destroyed . . .

Battle LA:
http://battlela.com/

Cowboys and Aliens:
http://www.cowboysandaliensmovie.com/

Apollo 18:
http://www.apollo18movie.net/

Transformers: Dark of the Moon
http://www.transformersmovie.com/


Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jan 23, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
Do you think that K.A.O.S., S.M.E.R.S.H. or S.P.E.C.T.R.E. were involved? Maybe working from the grassy knoll in Area 51?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 12:35am PT
Wow, with Kepler . . .


NASA spots 54 potentially life-friendly planets
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110202/ap_on_sc/us_sci_alien_planets



Amazing and exciting.


http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/24055358
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Feb 3, 2011 - 01:00am PT
Klimmer, you might be interested in this book, The Annals of the Bohemian Club.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250767391466&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT#ht_500wt_1156
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 01:17am PT
Gee, an exciting announcement from NASA in Nature and reported on the News regarding exoplanets in the habitable zone surrounding other Stars other than our own, and all we get is ridicule.


Batrock,

It would be an interesting read for sure, but expensive. So are you selling this book? Only 600 copies printed and only sent to members. Wow. Pretty much an exclusive evil club.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 01:32pm PT
Solar system with six exoplanets, others in habitable zones found by NASA's Kepler

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4720300

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/02/AR2011020206539.html



Among the new and yet-to-be-fully-confirmed planets are 68 near the size of Earth and 54 in what is deemed the temperate, or habitable, zone of their solar systems.

"If Earth-sized planets are common, then it's likely that life is common on the planets around their stars," Borucki said. "This is really our first step in man's exploration of surrounding galaxies in terms of life and the extent of life that might be there."



Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Feb 3, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
Hey, what's the big deal? This simply confirms what virtually all physicists and astronomers, and theory, already indicated, which is that it is quite common for stars to have planetary systems, although they're still working out the exact mechanics. And that as instruments increased in resolution, that some of those planets would be found to be Earth-sized, and in orbits that may allow liquid water.

As they're from 500 to 3,000 light years away, no need to get very excited.

Although there appear to be aliens who post to SuperTopo. They're already amongst us.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Feb 3, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
Klimmer,
Yes I am selling the book. I read it and it's time for it to find a new home.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 3, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
Klimmer, you've been duped by my Illuminati brethren at NASA. They want you to believe that there is a "possibility" of life hundreds of light years, to distract you from the massive alien ark on the moon, where there is a rocking party going on to celebrate Chinese New Year RIGHT NOW. I just sent them an email to let them know that their plan is working.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
MH,

Validation is always a big deal and very satisfying in science.



Batrock,

Would love to read it. However, money is tight.

How the heck did you get a hold of that very exclusive club book? Got to be an interesting story there.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Feb 3, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
The Kepler results are indeed very exciting. The pathfinder/testbed for this mission was a little experiment that ran for some years up at Lick Observatory. Back at the beginning I think it it pretty fair to say that nobody but Bill Boruki (the mission PI) thought they would find anything at all. Bill was right and turned out to be a bit of a visionary!

But to use these new discoveries to bolster claims of ET visits and arks on the moon is, let's see, ahh, ummm, I'll go with "goofy".
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Feb 3, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
On October 26, 2007, in Minneapolis, Minnesota, former President Bill Clinton was heckled during a speech by a man claiming that the September 11 attacks were a fraud and mentioning the Bohemian Club. Clinton denied the 9/11 claim and then sarcastically added, "Did you say the Bohemian Club? That's where all those rich Republicans go up and stand naked against redwood trees, right? I've never been to the Bohemian Club but you oughta go. It'd be good for you. You'd get some fresh air." The heckler was escorted out of the hall as Clinton made his remarks.[11]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
MB,

I didn't make the connection, I just posted the news is all.

It's space-science and I decided to post it here, since it is a search for possible life outside our Solar System. That is the only connection. It is a beginning, or if you will a continuation for the search for exobiology.
ddriver

Trad climber
SLC, UT
Feb 3, 2011 - 04:19pm PT
Can't believe I clicked on this thread or that I'm responding. Lord.

Just thought how ridiculous this statement appears on its surface:

Did you see that womans (BP) talk on the most fertile and diverse cave ecosystems she had ever seen? She was talking about sealed caves, with NO access to light or even the surface,...

...ever seen...

...no access...

Uh, how the hell did she SEE it?

Back to your lunar programming.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 3, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
ddriver,


Well, a cavern can be sealed from the surface. This cavern of selenite crystals was completely sealed off from the surface, when by chance miners broke through to it. The cavern was flooded, with the crystals growing in a brine like solution. Then drained to explore it. Magical. Unbelievably spectacular in a mineral and cavern sort of way. Who knows haw many other rare special crystal caverns exist in the World that are sealed from the surface. Would be incredible to chance upon one. Simply amazing. I have had dreams like this, but the crystals are brilliant in color and flourescent . . .

A rare glimpse of the cave of crystals

Mexico's Cave of Crystals stunned geologists when it was first discovered in 2000. The underground chamber contains some of the largest natural crystals ever found - some of the selenite structures have grown to more than 10m long. Professor Iain Stewart got a rare glimpse of the subterranean spectacle while filming for the new BBC series How the Earth Made Us.

Short spectacular video:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8466493.stm



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 6, 2011 - 08:14pm PT
Watching the SuperBowl . . .


Dang another Alien movie coming out this summer . . . Area 51 connection and theme . . .


Another Alien Movie:

“Super 8”
http://www.super8-movie.com/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/11/super-8-trailer-jj-abrams_n_572159.html
http://www.examiner.com/movie-in-los-angeles/jj-abrams-super-8-trailer-leaked-online-video
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2011 - 10:37am PT
Well, the story of Apollo 20 and Cmd. William Rutledge (aka retiredafb) sure has inspired some new Hollywood movies . . .

Transformers: Dark of the Moon

and


Apollo 18:
http://www.apollo18movie.net/


The official site of Apollo 18 now has a long trailer. Looks good. Looks scary.

Someone please hold my hand. Lol.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2011 - 10:55am PT
The following new or recent books are all worthy of reading. Anyone else read them and/or want to discuss them?

Having read all three, to get to the point, UFOs are here, the phenomenon is real, but we don't know what they are. Many big names, (officers and PhDs) and very respected individuals in the military, the government, science and education are now willing to admit that.

In many ways, disclosure has happened. If you want to know the truth you can. But you have to do some work for it. It just doesn't seem to be splashed on the MSM news. Probably won't. But the program to get average Joe more and more used to the idea that we are not alone is in full swing. Everyone will know, but subconsciously. Perhaps they are trying to desperately avoid the War of the Worlds response.

The 3rd book, UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities, by Retired Colonel and PhD John B. Alexander, pretty much admits the same but tries desperately to say that the many alphabet organizations are just as confused and that there has been no concerted effort in covering it up. No conspiracies. (Can you say official government response to Leslie Kean's very well researched book? Sure you can.)

Yea, right. I'm supposed to believe that, when indeed many in government and military over the years have come out and said just the opposite and that they were involved in covering up.

Anyway, all worthy of reading and all have good info. Just know the author and their intent for writing the book, and it will serve in knowing and deciphering the truth.


New or recent UFO books worthy of reading and discussing:

UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover]
Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1OH0VZD7NR59F&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

The NASA Conspiracies: The Truth Behind the Moon Landings, Censored Photos , and The Face on Mars [Paperback] Nick Redfern (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/NASA-Conspiracies-Behind-Landings-Censored/dp/1601631499/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2P09NOF1YC2OJ&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities [Hardcover]
John B. Alexander Ph.D. (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Conspiracies-John-Alexander-Ph-D/dp/0312648340/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=IW8ED61CH7HBM&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Edit:

By the way, the 3rd book, UFOs by Col. John B. Alexander, PhD, the Forward is by Jasques F. Vallee, the Commentary by Tom Clancy, and the Introduction is by Burt Rutan.

Both Col. John B. Alexander, PhD, and Burt Rutan admit and share their personal UFO sightings in the book. Very interesting.

yedi

Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
Mar 6, 2011 - 11:44am PT
" There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation"
Herbert Spencer

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Classic Richard Dolan.

I really like his style.

Too funny.


The UFO Cover-Up in 10 Minutes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaxtKeWKPBs
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 27, 2011 - 02:11am PT
A.D. Richard Dolan Interview (The Day Before Disclosure)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh47m1we148&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
Very, very interesting interview with Richard Dolan by Project Camelot. They cover a lot of ground . . .



Rich Dolan : Futuretalk 2011
http://projectcamelotproductions.com/interviews/rich_dolan_futuretalk/rich_dolan_futuretalk.html



Books and more by Richard Dolan:
http://www.keyholepublishing.com/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2011 - 03:30pm PT
"Be indifferent to snide remarks".

I try :-)




"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -- Albert Einstein





The following is sooooooo interesting.

Some brave scientific souls who step-out of the box . . .

(I'm putting 3D stereopairs together for the Cydonia Mars anamolies. They are coming out very nice. Hopefully I will post them eventually soon. Very cool.)



Life On MARS? - New Scientific Evidence - Bullet Version
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u-20g7Bwdw&feature=player_embedded#at=64

UFOTV Presents...: Life On MARS? - New Scientific Evidence (May 8, 2001) - Full Length Edition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPJRpBWuGbY&NR=1&feature=fvwp
“Scientists announce the discovery of startling artificial Megalithic structures found among recently released NASA / JPL photos taken by the Mars Global Surveyor and that these artificial structures are stunning proof that Mars was once inhabited by an intelligent civilization. Includes a spectacular collection of new photographs presented by Dr. Tom Van Flandern, former Chief Astronomer for the United States Naval Observatory. See remarkable monuments, "T" shaped craters, gigantic glass tube systems, ancient forest remains and grand edifices that will leave you speechless. Also features Astronomer and former NASA Astronaut, trained to go to Mars, Dr. Brian O'Leary.”


Dr. Thomas Van Flandern's:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=1&oq=Dr.+Tom+Van+Flandern&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&q=dr.+thomas+van+flandern

Dr. Thomas Van Flandern’s (June 26, 1940 – January 9, 2009) website:
http://metaresearch.org/


Dr. Brian O'Leary:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GPEA_enUS301US303&q=Dr.+Brian+O%27Leary

Dr. Brian O’Leary’s website:
http://www.brianoleary.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_O'Leary

Project Camelot Interviews Brian O'Leary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3cBOq5-nZw
“The Truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.”

The Energy Solution Revolution [Paperback]
Brian O'Leary (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Solution-Revolution-Brian-OLeary/dp/0979917646/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1301967406&sr=1-1


Exploring Inner and Outer Space: A Scientist's Perspective on Personal and Planetary Transformation [Paperback]
Brian O'Leary
(Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Inner-Outer-Space-Transformation/dp/155643068X/ref=pd_sim_b_2#reader_155643068X

Infinite Energy: The Magazine of New Energy Science and Technology
http://www.infinite-energy.com/







The Martian Codex: More Reflections from Mars [Paperback]
George J. Haas
(Author), William R. Saunders (Author), Greg Orme (Foreword), Randolfo Pozos Ph.D. (Foreword)
http://www.amazon.com/Martian-Codex-More-Reflections-Mars/dp/1556438141/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3M5NFOT2PXHUU&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

The Cydonia Codex: Reflections from Mars [Paperback]
George J. Haas
(Author), William R. Saunders (Author), Mark J. Carlotto (Foreword), Richard C. Hoagland (Foreword)
http://www.amazon.com/Cydonia-Codex-Reflections-Mars/dp/1583941215/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

The Monuments of Mars: A City on the Edge of Forever (5th Edition) [Paperback]
Richard C. Hoagland
(Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Monuments-Mars-City-Edge-Forever/dp/1583940545/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 4, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Y'all jess fiddlin' away while Rome burns. They're here already big time!
Seen 'em in their secret lair:

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 01:36am PT
OK, let's talk Mars anomalies . . .






Why is this 3D elevated platform in the Cydonia Region of Mars have an obvious 1/2 anthropormorphic longitudinal face, and the other 1/2 has the obvious features of a Lion's longitudinal face?:
http://www.enterprisemission.com/gmet.html






What natural geomorphic process forms a near perfect massive pentagon pyrimid?



[Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 11, No. 2]
Evidence in Support of the Hypothesis that Certain
Objects on Mars are Artificial in Origin
Mark J. Carlotto
http://www.carlotto.us/martianenigmas/Papers/JSE1997.pdf
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 02:20am PT
Wrong.


http://users.starpower.net/etorun/pyramid/geomorphology.html

. . .


The Geomorphic Hypothesis is thus left with no mechanism that can explain the formation of the D&M Pyramid. This object's 5-sided shape and bilateral symmetry is unlike any landform seen to date in this solar system, and even small-scale phenomena such as crystal growth cannot explain its morphology.


All observations to date of the geophysics of Mars, its gravity, meteorology, geomorphology, etc., indicate that Mars is a place where the laws of physics and principles of geomorphology as we understand them apply, with minor variations due to gravity and atmospheric density and content. It is illogical to assume that there is one small place on the surface of Mars where these same principles are being violated. Being thus faced with no known natural mechanism to account for the D&M Pyramid's formation, we will explore the possibility that it is the product of intelligent design.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 15, 2011 - 02:33am PT

"Photosynthetic microbial mats forming large conical structures up to half a meter tall have been discovered by astrobiologists in Lake Untersee, Antarctica. This research is described in a forthcoming article in the journal Geobiology. During the expedition, three members of the field team, Dale Andersen (SETI Institute), Ian Hawes (University of Canterbury), and Chris McKay (NASA ARC) explored the lake beneath its 3 meter thick ice-cover and discovered the large conical structures that dominate the under-ice landscape."


http://www.onorbit.com/node/3221
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2011 - 03:46am PT
What geomorphic process forms a near perfect massive pentagon pyrimid?

"Near perfect", Really? I'd say four of the five show clear extrusional flows, the two at the bottom evidence extrusion and slumping at their base and the terminus of far right one could hardly be more obviously an extrusional flow. And it looks like secondary dome building activity just right of the top and possibly an irregular and smaller dome on the upper right rib. The entire right half is less eroded so I'd be curious how the mountain is oriented to the prevailing winds. All in all it doesn't look remotely like a constructed structure.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2011 - 10:01am PT
For those who have seriously considered all that is going on in the Cydonia Region of Mars, and there are many, and many books published and studies also published, they would absolutely disagree with you.

We haven't even gotten into the half of it yet.

There are good and honest observers, then there are those who are not.

No other natural feature in our Solar System looks just like this at this massive scale that has such a repeatable and mathematical near perfect pentagon pyramid structure, that is not artificial. Anything like this on Earth would be artificial.

Yes some weathering and erosion has certainly taken place. That can be seen. But the near perfectness of it remains even then.

What about all the mathematical patterns and alignments that are centered on this pyramid? We haven't even gotten into that yet here on ST. Just looking at shapes so far.

And how about some of the ancient Earth structures here on Earth that are perfect scaled down versions of some of these structures and their alignments within the Cydonia Region of Mars? How the heck did the ancients do that? Did they have some kind of powerful telescope with incredible resolution that we can't even achieve today?


No something mysterious is going on in the Cydonia Region of Mars, and there is a direct Earth connection.

We haven't even begun to start to get into all that there is and what people have discovered on ST. Should be fun.

NASA's response. Mum. Trickle out the highest resolution images of MRO as slooooooooooooooooooooooooooowww as they can. HHHHhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm. Interesting response.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 15, 2011 - 10:10am PT
kinda cool sh#t, however you interpret it. i'm glad we got the high-res pics here--i was gonna suggest maybe a big limpet, which would mean mars has a saltw#ter atmosphere.
tooth

Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
Apr 15, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Wait, a 5-sided, uneven lump of dirt is a product of 'intelligent design' but human life evolved?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 15, 2011 - 10:30am PT
Sure it's a pyramid - the same way saltw#ter is a swear word.

Here's some real Mars news:
http://gizmodo.com/#!5792127/nasas-crazy-plan-to-land-on-mars
The last 115 feet turns out to be the trickiest part.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
oh boy.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
For those who have seriously considered all that is going on in the Cydonia Region of Mars, and there are many, and many books published and studies also published, they would absolutely disagree with you.

"Seriously considered"? It doesn't matter how "seriously" or how many books or "studies" they produce - how about just simply looking at the picture? It doesn't support any such conclusion, neither does the 2001 face shot.

All the Cydonia and face stuff is a case of starting at a [wistful] conclusion and then searching [fabricating] reams of 'studies' to support them. Hell, I'm sure there are plenty of ex-Bush DoD staffers who [after seriously considering and studying the matter] could 'prove' Cydonia is a weapons complex chockful of WMDs.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 15, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
I'm as big a scifi/fantasy/tech fan as anyone, but in society today the Internet has given voice to all manner of lunacy, conspiracy, and raw bullshit attempting to masquerade as fact - this thread, chemtrails, etc. are prime examples. The world will go to hell in a handbasket if this sort of claptrap and tripe aren't continuously defended against and annotated as such. It's just a skip and a jump from this sort of crap to burning witches, a flat earth, and all sorts of denialist cults.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Apr 15, 2011 - 04:08pm PT

Proof that there are Martians, and that they love us.

Top that, arkboy!
dirtbag

climber
Apr 15, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
awwww, that's sweet.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 15, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
It's just a skip and a jump from this sort of crap to burning witches, a flat earth, and all sorts of denialist cults.

Anything's possible is the land of make believe, where imagination supplants reality.
LithiumMetalman

Trad climber
cesspool central
Apr 15, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
Isn't this thing dead yet?
howlostami

Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
May 17, 2011 - 11:26am PT
Futility bump:

There is some more highly scientific evidence coming out now explaining the structures on the dark side of the moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNDaOFQ6g2I

I'm excited to know more about this new theory.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
May 17, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
Wait, a 5-sided, uneven lump of dirt is a product of 'intelligent design' but human life evolved?

Oh, hells yea!

Look on Saturn, as the aliens there regularly use their advanced technology to put shapes in the clouds at the poles of their planet...

And we even caught them while they were doing it, with their uber advanced cloud controlling lasers...


'splain that!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 17, 2011 - 09:02pm PT
NPS interviews author who wrote a book on Area 51 by interview many ex area 51 employees


http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356848/area-51-uncensored-was-it-ufos-or-the-ussr?ft=1&f=13

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
May 17, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
" a flying disc really did crash in New Mexico and it was transported to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and then in 1951 it was transferred to Area 51, which is why the base is called Area 51. And the stunning part of the reveal is that my source, who I absolutely believe and worked with for 18 months on this, was one of the engineers who received the equipment and he also received the people who were in the craft.

"The people were, according to the source, were child-sized pilots, and there's a lot of debate about how old they were. He believes they were 13, although other people believe they may have been older. But this is a firsthand witness to this,




"The child-sized aviators in this craft [that crashed in New Mexico] were the result of a Soviet human experimentation program, and they had been made to look like aliens a la Orson Welles' War of the Worlds, and it was a warning shot over President Truman's bow, so to speak.

"What is firsthand information is that he worked with these bodies [of the pilots] and he was an eyewitness to the horror of seeing them and working with them. Where they actually came from is obviously the subject of debate. But if you look at the timeline with Josef Mengele, he left Auschwitz in January of 1945 and disappeared for a while, and the suggestion by the source is that Mengele had already cut his losses with the Third Reich at that point and was working with Stalin."



"The plan, according to my source, was to create panic in the United States with this belief that a UFO had landed with aliens inside of it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2011 - 12:32am PT
Karl,

Gosh darn it all. Now I got to read another book. Lol. Put it on my wish list at Amazon. Looks good. Looks interesting. Thanks.

Area 51: An Uncensored History of America's Top Secret Military Base [Hardcover] Annie Jacobsen (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Area-51-Uncensored-Americas-Military/dp/0316132942/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305691906&sr=8-1






NPS interviews author who wrote a book on Area 51 by interview many ex area 51 employees


http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356848/area-51-uncensored-was-it-ufos-or-the-ussr?ft=1&f=13





Edit:

Tony,

Saw your post. I'm aware that this can be a sanitized spin on Area 51. Also I have heard of this particular spin on Roswell being a Soviet experiment with children before. I don't buy it. However, I am willing to read it because I want to know the spin and what angle they are coming from to possibly cover-up stuff.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 18, 2011 - 12:39am PT
i wouldn't have great hopes for that book, by an editor of the los angeles times magazine, a publication which specializes in the architectural wonders of bel-air.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 18, 2011 - 12:54am PT
Oh, hells yea!

Look on Saturn, as the aliens there regularly use their advanced technology to put shapes in the clouds at the poles of their planet...




rrradam,


Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara get into this in their book: Dark Mission, The Secret History of NASA.

It's where I first heard about their theory regarding Hyperdimensional Physics. The Hexagon in the gases at the poles of the Gas Giant Planet Saturn are indeed incredibly interesting. Also a hexagon was observed in the eye of the Hurricane Isabel when the eye was most pronounced.
http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/~kristen/wrf/isabel_dmsp.gif


An introduction to Hyperdimensional Physics:

http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1.html
http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper1a.html
http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper2.html
http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper2a.html
http://www.enterprisemission.com/hyper3.html
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
May 18, 2011 - 12:57am PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST? Is it not OK to think and speculate? Wonder? Ponder? Ask questions?

Seems that you can't even apply your own logic to religion. lol
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 18, 2011 - 05:14am PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST? Is it not OK to think and speculate? Wonder? Ponder? Ask questions?

All sorts of people speculate, wonder, and imagine, but they don't typically confuse the results with facts. The issue isn't asking questions - questions are fabulous - the problem is inventing answers that are indistinguishable from any other human mythology just because you are desperate for answers. These ham-handed attempts to leap from scifi and fantasy to reality are in equal measure sad and corrosive in the same way as the-earth-is-flat, the-moon-is-in-the-pond, and the-moon-landings-were-faked are.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
May 18, 2011 - 07:44am PT
Is there not a curious mind at all on ST? Is it not OK to think and speculate? Wonder? Ponder? Ask questions?

It's a great thing to have an open mind...
Just not so open that your brain falls out.
monolith

climber
May 18, 2011 - 11:55am PT
That's a good one. The other common one is 'thinking outside the box', when you've left your brain inside the box.
Jingy

climber
Somewhere out there
May 22, 2011 - 11:34am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1trTYDwpn84&NR=1
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Sep 19, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
Wild legends from Hinduism:


An illustrated, clairvoyant revelation of man's untold journey to
Earth from the Pleiades millions of years ago, and the struggles faced
through the eras as souls matured into their ultimate destiny and
Divinity.

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/ls/

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/ls/ls_table_of_contents.html

http://www.spiritmythos.org/TM/aka_terma.htm

Lemurians living inside Mt. Shasta!:

http://www.siskiyous.edu/shasta/fol/lem/index.htm

Phi crystalline geometries are spinning through the Phi Gate (of
Kaua’i), threading through the FireGem matrix (of the Hawaiian Islands),
where they then receive the earth DNA coding from the roil point before
they expand out into the newly forming Maiden grid, and then out into the
entire grid fields of the planet.

http://www.spiritmythos.org/TM/divine-fire/phicrygeo.htm#PhiRaIm
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
Right on....the nutty-ness continues.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:02pm PT

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the recently-released, high-spatial-resolution images of the moon from NASA's LRO. If this isn't evidence that someone visited the moon, I don't know what could be.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
Magnified and looked at through a stereoscope, it looks like evidence of an alien visitation of the moon. In the center right, you can see evidence of an alien structure or vehicle.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 19, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Good point. It must be a conspiracy. If it was an intelligent life form, the lines should be straight. So it must be photo-shopped. Or maybe it was an intelligent life form, but acted stupid to fool us? This is so confusing!
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
GC,
that vehicle looks a lot like locker...that explains that wandering path.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
dirtbag

climber
Sep 19, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
Has there ever been a nuttier thread started here?

And how the f*#k did this get 2600+ posts?

God damn we've been trolled gud!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2011 - 09:37am PT
Couldn't think of a better place to post this since it considers Alien technology . . .


A Supertopian sent this to me in a private email. Thank you. You know who you are :-)

This film looks really interesting. I look forward to seeing it.

Once you come to the reality that there are indeed dark forces
who conspire against us and that they manipulate men/women
throughout man's history to their own selfish and immoral ways,
and who do not want to see mankind as a whole "thrive," then
you won't be fooled anymore and you can work for the betterment
of all mankind as a whole with a clear conscience and open eyes.
This conspiracy is millions of years old at the least.
Read your Bible and the Book of Enoch to know more.

There are clean renewable unlimited energy resources that we
are just sitting on, the technology exists, because TPTB do
not want these energy resources utilized. It would upset their
massive flow of profits. It would disrupt their position of power.

Got news for you. One day their grasp of power and their
enslavement of mankind will come to an end. Count on it.
I have read The Good Book. I know how it ends. We have hope.





The movie Thrive comes out on the internet fairly
soon and the premier (which is sold out) is on 11/11/11
in the bay area near SF. This is the trailer. Filmmaker
Foster Gamble asks what went wrong and what can be done.
Of course the answer can never be found in the too often
"us against them" or the all too familiar "good/bad" duality
model used in so many films. It's our own divided state
of consciousness within. But in terms of practical
solutions and given that we are in the eleventh hour on
the planet, this trailer looks like it might have the
potential at this time in history to bring out people
who perhaps are wise enough to know the right timing to
bring forth solutions. Those throughout history that
have brought forth free energy too soon have lost their
lives. But there are those who are sitting on free energy
now and are patiently waiting for the right moment to
release it along with other solutions. I don't know if
this movie will break out of the duality perspective,
but I'm hopeful.

http://www.thrivemovie.com/

http://www.thrivemovement.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OibqdwHyZxk&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.pythagorasconference.com/pdf/gamble_press_release.pdf
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 22, 2011 - 11:02am PT
I had a few beers with an ex-nuke bomber pilot. I've known him 28 years.
His wife died a while back and he has been opening up. He told me something
which I am unlikely to relate here and incur the scorn and condescension.
I'll just say that he isn't someone who believes in fairy tales. I can also
say that I now know two people with unimpeachable integrity who have 'seen'.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 22, 2011 - 11:37am PT
klimmer posted:

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Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
GC,

It is soooooooo funny how you are so obviously,
so blatantly, just and only a disruptor.
You really don't have anything to add ever,
just bullying, personal attacks, ad hominem
attacks etc. etc. etc. Nothing more.

Lol

What a tool.


What does Werner call you? Oh, yea, . . .

"A leg humper."
OR

Trad climber
Sep 22, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
OMG klim, really?
Trusty Rusty

Social climber
Tahoe area
Sep 22, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
Looks like some "sons of God" missed their annual flight check.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 22, 2011 - 03:42pm PT
Once you come to the reality that there are indeed dark forces
who conspire against us and that they manipulate men/women
throughout man's history to their own selfish and immoral ways,
and who do not want to see mankind as a whole "thrive," then
you won't be fooled anymore and you can work for the betterment
of all mankind as a whole with a clear conscience and open eyes.
This conspiracy is millions of years old at the least.
Read your Bible and the Book of Enoch to know more.


Sadly, there isn't a sure for stupid. You just have to do your best to make sure it doesn't spread.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Sep 22, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced to eat a magical fruit from a talking snake........yeah, makes perfect sense
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 8, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
I would just like to say that I've seen all the UFO/Alien theme Hollywood movies over the last 1.5 years. There has been a lot of them. Anyone thinking about it has to wonder why soooooooooooo many Hollywood movies with his theme now? What's up?

I saw Transformers: Dark of the Moon.

Fun movie. No doubt the lead in story was inspired by the "Apollo 20" internet phenom story with "retiredAFB," Cmd. William Rutledge, that broke in April 2007. And yes Apollo 18 was inspired also by the Apollo 20 story.

Some things I found very interesting in the DOTM movie. They did suggest through Sci-Fi the possibility that NASA could have done an Apollo mission with a hidden agenda. Is that possible? I think so. I doubt we know all the experiments done on the Moon that the Apollo astronauts performed. I'm sure many were DoD classified.

Nor did we know what they were doing at all times. There was personal "down time" on the Moon. Watch the movie "NGS: For All Mankind." It wasn't alot of time but there were moments where they were officially off the public airwaves. They did have channels/frequencies they could turn to talk to NASA space command privately without worrying that the public would hear (didn't block HAM radio operators from listening in though). They suggested this strongly in the movie.

They had Apollo 11 land on the far side of the Moon. The Transformer spacecraft crashed on the farside of the Moon was called an "Ark." Watch the movie again if you missed it. That's what they called it. I stand vindicated.

Buzz Aldrin was in the movie. Played himself. Had the discussion that they found the alien spaceship on the backside of the Moon and how it was a secret agenda mission. Buzz could be telling some truth there. If full disclosure ever happens, and I think it will at sometime, it will be overtly obvious and no government will be able to deny it or hide it anymore, including the USA/NASA. They can always say, we tried to tell you the truth in very subtle non-threatening ways (keeping the think tank study done in the 1960s, The Brookings Institute Report, in mind regarding UFOs and to avoid public disclosure as to not disrupt society): Space Odyssey 2001, "Frazer" with guest John Glenn, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and even Apollo 18 and much more over the years. Our government/DoD/NASA does involve themselves with Hollywood movies to get out messages and to help finance, either for PR purposes or propaganda. This indeed does happen, and often.

I'll talk about Apollo 18 later . . .
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 8, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
Klimmer, the band you're in is definitely playing different tunes.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 8, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
It is disturbing that he teaches science classes.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2011 - 09:33am PT
Many US National heroes are willing to go on the record now and testify that UFOs/Aliens/ET are a real phenomenon. Disclosure has really already happened if you have been paying attention.

It is a quiet revolution . . .

(There are much better testimonies out-there but here are just a few)

Alien's Exist ... ASTRONAUT GORDON COOPER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scH5aOH2cbk&feature=related

Former Apollo Astronaut Ed Mitchell says Aliens are Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVV6u-Y2XZU&feature=related

Aliens exist says Apollo Astronaut Buzz Aldrin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4&feature=related

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDIXvpjnRws&feature=related



NASA Werner Von Braun: 2012 Prepare for the Alien Invasion? First Contact?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=s8Nc-gG7vIY
http://www.alienscientist.com/forum/showthread.php?321-2012-Prepare-for-the-Alien-Invasion-First-Contact

UFO Disclosure: It`s Already Happening!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kse2Lh6O6Co&feature=related

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2011 - 09:50am PT
The unbelievably morally and ethically wrong and heavy hand of our US Government/NASA.

Shaaaaaaaaaame to treat people this way.

No one owns the Earth. No one owns the Moon. No one owns Mars or anything else in our Solar System, Galaxy, or Universe but the Creator.



Edgar Mitchell Sued By NASA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bttkWVERGVs

Astronaut Ed Mitchell Sued! Forced To Surrender Moon Camera!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH3DtuH_-5s

Uploaded by SRSchoner on Nov 1, 2011
This is OUTRAGEOUS! Forced to give it up under the duress of a Federal lawsuit against one of the twelve brave American astronauts that set foot on the Moon for the benefit of all.
Ed Mitchell's Apollo 14 DAC camera would have been smashed to bits on the lunar surface as the LM was programed to crash. All the astronauts took things out of the Lunar Modules, such as joysticks switches, and such.
As long as it met the weight requirements, Apollo 14 Commander Shepard let it pass, and from what I read it was "in house" no records of the items retained.
And so Ed Mitchell had this camera for 40 years... Till now.
The lawsuit that NASA and our Government did to strong-arm it from him is a disgrace, It tarnishes the honor of a great man, recipient of the Medal of Freedom, implying that he "stole" it. It does nothing for NASA reputation or our Government.
U.S. Citizens can do something to rectify this outrage...
Write, e-mail, or call your representatives to have this camera returned to a true American hero.
ASK THEM TO SPONSOR A BILL TO GIVE IT BACK TO HIM!
Only YOU can do it.

For more on this story see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iBNqiqrLPU


Astronaut Edgar Mitchell Sued By NASA_(360p).avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iBNqiqrLPU



NASA Terrorizes Old Lady For Tiny Moon Rock 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&v=clZrRAKzuaQ&src_vid=bttkWVERGVs&annotation_id=annotation_92433

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfsLfXQFoc&feature=related



I can't help but think that this is some kind of retaliation against Apollo Astronaut Edward Mitchell for being so vocal about the very real presence of UFOs/Aliens/ET that he is very aware of due to his connections throughout NASA and the Space Industry. Many people in the know have confided in him. He knows and he isn't afraid to say so.





The Fixx - We Don't Own The World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHjzeDMsew4

We Don't Own the World

Money don't buy love
War don't make "no peace"
We must rise above
We don't own the world, we lease
Step back, think on
Rolling with the status quo
Sit back, think on
You believe 'cause they told you
Sit back, chill out
Don't kill me with your point of view
Step back, think on
Got the vote; Hurray for you
Connect the dots
Those who have, those who have not
Connect the dots
Patronize and lose the plot
Two sides to the coin
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
Connect the dots
Only fools play would be king
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 9, 2011 - 10:32am PT
i have to "thank" klimmer for helping make me take a closer look at this stuff, but i'm afraid what i'm leaving behind is blissful ignorance. i don't like what i see, and klimmer ought to consider that he's deceiving himself by imposing his religious scenario over it.

previously, i tried to think of ufo "flaps" as paranormal manifestations, perhaps the result of human psychic abilities, as some believe poltergeists to be, or perhaps some sort of lost spiritual "entities" as inspire our horror genre. when ufos decide to make themselves evident, there is much reliable witnessing. predictably, religious interpretations are imposed on these miraculous events. ufos reputedly gave rise to the seventh day adventist and jehovah witness churches, and the great light show at fatima, predicted by "mary's kids" and witnessed by thousands, can only be explained supernaturally, paranormally--or extraterrestially.

a good place to begin is with enrico fermi's famous remark: "where are they?" fermi and the other top physicists of his day had a lively debate going about extraterrestial life. our telescopes and our science had given us a pretty solid idea of our place in the universe: a long evolution of life, a rapid evolution of technology, a backwater planet in a stable star system in one of millions of galaxies, each with billions of potential life evolvers. we could no longer consider that we were "special", or that we were alone. but how come our space brothers haven't shown up?

i wonder what fermi knew of foo fighters. that's something to take a close look at if you think klimmer is a flake. foo fighters were witnessed by fighter flyers on both sides of world war 2, ufos, superior technology, spying on the whole human fracas. if you'd like to dismiss that, check out "the battle of los angeles" on feb. 25, 1942, a ufo encounter witnessed by our entire city. an impregnable airship flew slowly across south bay communities as everything we had to throw at the japanese--that's what the military thought it was--failed to knock it out of the sky. dirtbag, you have to worry about what the other teachers are not teaching.

i hate to go on and on about all this, but there is much to be looked at that is credible. consider j. allen hynek, an important scientist commissioned by the government to debunk ufos. hynek eventually began to take it all seriously and the government then set out to debunk him. debunk, debunk, debunk--a very active verb these days.

ufo events come and go. sometimes there are many witnesses, sometimes it's too private to invite credence. my dad was a frequently flying businessman in the 1960s. he saw one. most pilots of long experience can tell you stories--strange sights in the wild blue yonder. but then come the abductions, often explained away as psychotic or even mythic syndrome. this attracted a serious researcher, the late john mack, professor of psychiatry at harvard medical school, who drew, and survived, a storm of academic controversy. (however, he didn't survive an encounter with a drunk driver in london.) another interesting academic in this realm is david jacobs, professsor of history at temple university. jacobs is drawing disturbing conclusions. they're here, enrico, and they appear to have gotten a toehold for their interests, not ours. and the finger points towards our bad-faith governments.

klimmer's point of view is reflected by dr. steven greer and the disclosure project. spend a little time with that, and you'll find that our star supertopo flake has plenty of credentialed company. but there's a reason, klim, that "disclosure" isn't happening very quickly. those in control intend to stay in control, and to extend that control as far as they can. it isn't god versus satan. it's evolution and the self interest of species.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 9, 2011 - 11:59am PT
We can't handle the truth! Go Klim! Nice post, Tony. They're out there
all right but they've seen enough. I guess they keep coming back because
they can't believe what they're seein'.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
The following links and resources make a lot of sense in sequence . . .


Ancient Aliens & The Third Reich 1
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgecjt_ancient-aliens-the-third-reich-1_webcam
Aliens and the Third Reich 2
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgebu3_aliens-and-the-third-reich-2_tech
Aliens & the Third Reich 3 "We had help from them"
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgeb4v_aliens-the-third-reich-3-we-had-help-from-them_news


Alien's Exist ... ASTRONAUT GORDON COOPER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scH5aOH2cbk&feature=related
Astronaut Gordon Cooper Talks About UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvPR8T1o3Dc&feature=related
Neil Armstrong NASA Lies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfCzUuA8M4U&feature=related
Aliens exist says Astronaut Buzz Aldrin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4&feature=related
Astronaut Mitchell: Former Astronaut says Aliens are Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVV6u-Y2XZU&feature=related


The Truth - Why NASA Has Never Returned To The Moon Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=uagbZmWcl7I
The Truth - Why NASA Has Never Returned To The Moon Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbhLad96JwA&feature=related
N.A.S.A : Alien Spacecraft & Moon Ruins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wf8TjxV9Vw&feature=related


Werner Von Braun: Alien Attack Planned as described by the Disclosure Project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-wsBFSsCbI


Book:
Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA, Enlarged and Revised Edition [Paperback]
Richard C. Hoagland (Author), Mike Bara (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Mission-History-Enlarged-Revised/dp/1932595481/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322963559&sr=8-2#_


UFO Disclosure: It`s Already Happening!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kse2Lh6O6Co&feature=related


Former Area 51 Employees Speak Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0YIcAFauF4&feature=related
NASA Employee Tells What He Knows
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVVqTG8f0WE&feature=related




Dr. Chuck Missler - Return Of The Nephilim
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3473883928564642733#
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2011 - 12:03am PT
LOL...

And you wonder why folks don't take you seriously?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2011 - 12:13am PT
DB,


One day, even you'll know the truth.

It will be hard to ridicule then.

But, it will also be too late, maybe. I hope not for your sake.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 4, 2011 - 12:17am PT
Right-o, Klimmer.







Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 4, 2011 - 02:13am PT
Saw quite a decent Nat Geo show the other night on Area 51. I learned a
number of things. One was that the Air Force's Project Blue Book was partly
a cover for the myriad sightings of the SR 71 during its development during
which it made 2850 flights out of Groom Lk (Area 51).
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 4, 2011 - 10:00am PT
nat geo--dumbing down science since 1888.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 4, 2011 - 10:41am PT
I really enjoy NG Magazine and the NGS. I grew-up on those magazines since childhood. I'm a Physical Geographer first and foremost by Degree. It probably had a definite impact. I enjoy all the sciences and I enjoy a full perspective.

However, I have indeed witnessed NGS used as a mouthpiece with a certain agenda and point of view over the years. It's a very conservative point of view. A point of view that won't tick-off TPTB. As a result they hold back and even propagate certain "myths" or lies.

Where the topic is not controversial, NGS will indeed do a very good job with good writing, great images, wonderful maps, models, and graphics.


You have to be able to discern your way through the mine-field.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 4, 2011 - 12:35pm PT
if NG's writing were as good as its photography, there would be no argument. the writing is last-rate, skimming over everything, written for people who never went to college.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2011 - 12:13am PT
Tony,

So you are full of yourself. There have been many incredibly good articles over the entire NG Mag history. Sorry they never accepted your written story or images.







Cross posting this here . . .



THRIVE !! ( FULL Length Documentary, Movie )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3azxd4LG0xM#!

http://www.thrivemovement.com/


Thrive Full Length Movie
http://www.educatinghumanity.com/2011/11/full-length-movie-thrive-ufos-symbols.html



Someone here on ST brought this to my attention awhile ago with a private email. Thank you. However, I just now watched it. It was released 11-11-11.

This film has something for everyone. It wraps it all together. It brings together many of the OT threads here at ST that I have started over the years, as well as many other threads started by others. There is an incredible amount of truth in this film. It will make you think and bring it all together in a very unique and thoughtful way. Good film.




(I can now see the eyes rolling and already hear the ad hominem personal attacks. If you disagree with me, then fine, that is your prerogative.)


However, "I have somewhat against thee" (meaning the film).

The power, manipulation, and the deceit behind the NWO is Luciferian: ie Lucifer and his Fallen Angels. They do indeed have an agenda. And it is the NWO agenda. ET/Aliens are more than likely Inter-dimensional Fallen Angels, Nephilim off-spring, and when Nephilim decease they become disembodied demons. Test the spirits. Accept the clean renewable energy and technology they provide, but reject their false philosophy and false religion -- it's Anti-Christ, it's Anti-GOD.

The film has a definite "New-Age" (get your crystals out and chant) philosophy feel to it. Jesus has nothing to do with that 21st Century witch-craft.

The answer that will bring about what we all want to achieve in this life, this story, this film, the peace, the love, and the prosperity for all that we seek, is GOD in our hearts through the Blood and the sacrifice, and the forgiveness given freely to us by Jesus Christ. This is the only true peace, GOD in our hearts, and The Law of GOD written on our hearts.

The Millennium will eventually be here. But it will get a great deal darker as a result of the NWO agenda, before that time of peace when Jesus returns and "The Lion lays down with the Lamb."


Very good film. Very, very thought provoking. Like I said it brings it all together.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 9, 2011 - 12:15am PT
Hoo-boy...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Dec 9, 2011 - 01:38am PT
THE HIVE !! ( FULL Length Documentary, Movie ) (OT- good)







































































































Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Dec 9, 2011 - 01:48am PT
The timing of this is too funny. South Park RIPS the History Channel a new one on their Alien Bull Sh#t,


http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s15e13-a-history-channel-thanksgiving

Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Dec 9, 2011 - 07:37am PT
Thanks for making my breakfast a little better with that SP episode.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 9, 2011 - 09:36am PT
my writing pushes the needle in a bit too deep for them, klimsie. as for the photography, it takes money to make money, and as gandhi once noted, hand weaving is a greater art.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 15, 2012 - 09:24am PT
well, lookee here--a 2600-post thread, and i was the last man standing, just now coming to.

chrismac, i've tried emailing klimmer on this privately, but he won't respond. i can't believe it's because he has a thin skin. sorry to revive such a notorious OT topic.

klimmer loaded this durn thread with links, links, links. maybe everyone is still out there doing homework. what a nice bunch of guys, huh? politely giving poor klim the consideration he deserves.

but i have some homework for klimmer:

http://www.4shared.com/office/KlQ6uf3u/Ingo_Swann_-_Penetration_-_The.html

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/

http://www.spazioevita.com/W56Eng/bruno_to_the_reader.asp

http://exopolitics.blogspot.com/


so here's the deal. the planet earth is a farm. we're the livestock. the moon is the farmhouse where the farmers live.

now, from the livestock's point of view, you just eat the grass in front of you. if you're a lucky aurochs, you live in a pleasant meadow. it's the way life was "meant" to be lived. but most of us wind up in feedlots and just make the best of it. from the livestock point of view, it's all you need to know.

some important things to remember about the farmers. number one, they're mortal, just like us. don't ask me how long one of them lives, it's data that's difficult to confirm at this point. number two, just like human farmers down here, they may not be able to keep the farm. it's all a matter of economics. other farmers could take it away from them. as a not very important unit of livestock, it's impossible for me to tell you more. all i get to do is overhear a few arguments. sometimes shouting goes on. cars come and go. bankers about to foreclose? if some of the livestock gets worked up about it, a nice man comes down and very soothingly says that everything is all right.
ground_up

Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
Feb 15, 2012 - 11:28am PT
If nothing else , this is interesting . There could be truth
in this or it could be bunch of b.s. ... to me the real truth
is that no one can prove without a doubt that it does or doesn't
exist.... much like religions or god .
We all can believe what we want , and what we believe may be
very true in our mind yet that does not make it true. I sit
on the fence in these matters .... I don't know if there is
a god , if there are aliens , or what lady ga-ga will wear
tomorrow .... I do know that offwidths kick my ass , that
is the truth.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 15, 2012 - 11:49am PT
ufology is more than clubs of cultists, rox. it had a definitive beginning in the 1950s when all the reports were still getting into newspapers. things started to get out of hand. people got too excited. the military had to do something about it, so they came up with project blue book. read that project pooh-pooh book. they hired j. allen hynek, chairman of the astronomy department at northwestern university, to spearhead the debunking. after a couple years the hynek guy starts saying, you know, there really is something to a lot of these reports.

the little clubby cults show up when people like you and i get tired of all the scorn we get and turn to each other for a bit of refuge. there's something called MUFON--mutual UFO network--for that. they have annual meetings, chapters in every state, special events in good ol' roswell. half of it is pretty disciplined, the other half ga-ga. my link to ed komarek's page will put you in the e-book of a guy who stayed in it for 40 years, a nice guy, sincere guy, ordinary guy like you and me. he knows most people will call him too far out, but he ceased caring about that long ago.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
chrismac, i've tried emailing klimmer on this privately, but he won't respond. i can't believe it's because he has a thin skin. sorry to revive such a notorious OT topic.

klimmer loaded this durn thread with links, links, links. maybe everyone is still out there doing homework. what a nice bunch of guys, huh? politely giving poor klim the consideration he deserves.

but i have some homework for klimmer:


Tony,

I got your email a while back. I had seen the video interview before on the Project Camelot website. Sorry I didn't get back to you. Life has been very busy lately. My apologies.

Home work! Home work! Nah, nah, nah. I'm the teacher here, and I give the homework. Lol.

I will get around to checking it out and watching it eventually. Thanks.




I now have my own copy of Apollo 18 on DVD. I'm gonna go through that film with a fine tooth comb, and check out the extras.

The Apollo 20 story, Cmd. William Rutledge ("retiredafb"), "Mona Lisa on the backside of the Moon" sure has sparked some serious movie making by Hollywood: "Transformers: Dark of the Moon" and "Apollo 18," yet no head nod to the inspiration. That is sad. It's kinda like how James Cameron ripped off Roger Dean art in the making of his fantastic fantasy that takes place on the planet Pandora.


What are the odds that in the movie Apollo 18, the apollo crew just so happens to be listening to YES on the way to the Moon? YES, my favorite rock band of all ages and the best progressive rock band throughout the Universe? What are the odds? I've made it very clear for many years now that YES is my favorite band. What are the odds???



Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Feb 15, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
what do you reckon it means that the two years in the last 40 when there were the largest numbers of reported UFO sightings were the years the movies "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" and "Independence Day" were released?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
Dr. MB,


Now I know that most sightings are bunk for sure. Most who look into the phenomenon readily admit this. But then some are not.

Sightings by competent observers.

Full reports/witness reports on record.

RADAR signatures, showing maneuvers that can't be performed by known aircraft or known technology.

Other physical evidence.





UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover]
Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848


-I dare anyone to debunk Leslie Keane's book.



Then there is this book by PhD Alexander . . .

UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities [Hardcover]
John B. Alexander Ph.D. (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Conspiracies-John-Alexander-Ph-D/dp/0312648340/ref=pd_sim_b_5

--Government insider who admits the phenomenon is real, but that governments are at a loss as to what it is. "They" are just as perplexed as we are.

RRRRrrrrriiiiiggggghhhhhttttt, sure they are. Uh, huh. I believe them. (sarcasm if you didn't get it)
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 15, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
Tony, I'm not a UFO believer but I'm open to see evidence.


And I have some for you; since you are a retired journalist with some spare time and climbing skills, here you go, right in our own back yard:

A. Certain geologic anomalies SW of Strawberry peak indicate the possible collapse of an underground base. These align with a map I once saw in someone's UFO research book showing a network of underground tunnels leading to Los Angeles and Catalina Island.

B. Trails leading to these site from Camp Colby. A place with suspiciously tight security yet a place where classrooms full of Los Angeles school children are shipped for "a field trip." Possible cover for DNA sampling the population of LA.

C. And what is with Barley Flats? Why the security so tight? It's supposed to be part of LA County Jails work program. Yet some very expensive and large freighter sized helicopters frequently come and go from this place only a few miles from the location mentioned in "A" & "B" above. Zombie like persons of a non-specific brownish race seen being moved behind chain link fences in this zone.

D. Mysterious side road about 1/2 mile from Barley Flats (on left while driving up). A very odd cement structure. Possibly a capped ventilation shaft for above mentioned underground tunnels.

E. In the mid 1990's three on-duty marines were reported killed in an accident "near Barley Flats" due to a "fall" of some kind. -- Los Angeles Daily News. Or were they part of a much bigger scheme going on in this strange area.


There you go! I've known this stuff for years but I'm way too lazy and really could care less if Earth is being run by aliens or not.

The truth is out there man.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Feb 15, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Rox,

We'll find out when the men in black shut this forum down because of this thread.


Or worse, the contributors and the thread mysteriously disappair!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 15, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
sounds like you've been looking into it yourself, chris.

underground fantasy permeates the UFO pages. i read one report that, about 30 years ago, los alamos patented a couple of gizmos that could feed nuclear-heated liquid lithium through a cycle which would melt through rock, leaving behind a glass-lined tube, basically a tunnel with its own shoring and no borrow. nifty idea. john lear tells us there's now a whole system of subterranean tube transportation in place. some call him a spectacular liar, but ingo swann seems to confirm much of lear's "living moon" material, as does information gathered by charles fort many years ago.

clever movie people pick up on much of this and build public entertainment out of it. spielberg gets far more than his share. his recent movies super 8 and cowboys and aliens deal with subterranean ETs. in super 8, they seem to have arrived on earth in advanced spaceships, only to use the digging technology of badgers.

upthread, tom cochrane mentioned his friend linda moulton howe. i listened to linda give a presentation recently. you rarely encounter a journalist as savvy, educated, and passionate about truth. she fell down the rabbit hole investigating cattle mutilations, getting into that in a big way and winning several awards.

c'mon now, how do you explain away these extraordinary mutilations? too many people watching too many movies? how about crop circles? more movies? all i can think of is the one mel gibson made long after they began to appear. on the other hand, if you look into the events of the ohio river valley in 1966-67, you may be much more impressed that they continued to inspire movies years afterward, like men in black and mothman.

well then, at least you'll have to admit that all this abduction business is craziness, right? if so, that would win popular skepticism one out of four here. one out of four ain't good.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 20, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
well, i do have to amend my praise for linda howe. i'm afraid she doesn't live up to her early success in the reporting of strange harvest. perhaps it's an example of what can go wrong when a journalist becomes an entrepreneur and begins playing to a paying audience.

this website, spider and klimmer, splashes some welcome cold water on this difficult field. unfortunately the sponsor of it, after winning a significant court case, seems burned out.

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/hall_of_shame.htm
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Feb 20, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
Here's some real lunar science news.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.universetoday.com/93666/recent-geologic-activity-on-the-moon/

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 20, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
somehow, that man just doesn't seem very happy. kinda like neil armstrong, nearly in tears, and not tears of joy, during his moon commemoration speech. other astronauts acting downright depressed during press conferences. you know what i'm talking about.

as the pollo loco ad used to go: "what are they hiding?"

meanwhile, give us some more real science about this:

http://exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-112.htm
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Feb 20, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
On the other hand, if the scientists are wrong and it is a giant cylindrical spacecraft, then its size would suggest that it is a mothership containing many thousands of extraterrestrial residents and their spacecraft.

Um, yeah, that's what that would suggest. On the other hand, if it's a giant interplanetary burrito, that would suggest it contains an unearthly quantity of refried beans and guacamole.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 20, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
actually, giant burritos are pretty lame compared to some of the explanations being seriously forwarded. but "photographic artifact" is even lamer.

what disturbs me about the whole scene is that someone like linda moulton howe can start off on the right foot, but after a lifetime of pursuing the truth so passionately, begin to stumble on the disinformation that comes her way. i give her credit at least for being an independent voice. she ought to have a lot bigger budget to investigate than she gets from $40 subscriptions. david jacobs is another serious researcher, recently retired and apparently rather worn out from trying to get to the bottom of what seems to be a depressing truth.

your posts, cintune, merely point up the need to be comforted by normalcy. i'm on a bit of overload with it myself, but i know there's enough evidence to take much of it seriously, and i also know that we are being kept away from the truth by artifice and illegal and unconstitutional withholding of information.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Not sure about the light anomaly seen near Mercury. There was another thread about that here on ST. Have to find the link. Seems it may have been an image artifact? I don't know.



Anyway, I thought I would cross-post this info here in celebration of John Glenn's 50 year Friendship 7 Mercury Mission and his 3 orbits around the Earth.

He disclosed on the sitcom "Fraiser."



John Herschel Glenn - 50 Years (OT)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1756571&tn=0






Feb 20, 2012 - 12:33pm PT

John Glenn gets the (US) fame because he was the first USA astronaut to go an entire orbit around the Earth in "Friendship 7", not just a parabolic shot into space.

He was also the standout leader of the Mercury Mission astronauts it seems. At least from the movie "The Right Stuff" you certainly get that impression.

Then he got to go back into space as a retired Senator on a Space shuttle mission. He is the oldest US citizen to go into space, as far as we know.

On the sitcom "Frasier" he openly admits we are not alone in a very comical way, so as not to tick-off NASA. He now can always say he told us. We just have to read between the lines.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/glenn.htm

http://www.rense.com/general9/glenn.htm

See 15 min mark on this video clip on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj8sBOxx22E



My mother named me after John Glenn.



Glenn
"Klimmer"
dirtbag

climber
Feb 20, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
Christ, is there any nutter idea that doesn't give you a boner?

ANY?

What Ricky said.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 21, 2012 - 12:44am PT
disclosure is really no big deal. so many people have figured it out anyway. but you may be right, klim--lotta people playing both sides of the street, not quite sure where the smart money is. disclosure has gone so far that the vatican has offered to baptize extraterrestrials, should they exist
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Feb 21, 2012 - 12:53am PT
^ Pure and unadulterated retardation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2012 - 12:56am PT
Ricky, dirtbag, and Port,

Shame that when your reality is threatened you just turn into jerks.

Must be a serious personality flaw or hang-up.

Seek counseling.





UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848


-I dare anyone to debunk Leslie Keane's book.

dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2012 - 01:18am PT
Jerks?

You continually espouse this horseshit and teach children?

You don't like being called on that?

Well, suck it dude. Please find another occupation.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 21, 2012 - 08:23am PT
nice to get a medical expert doing the couch number here.

kick it over to this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward_Mack

who had all of harvard university trying to boot him the hell out. read it. find out who won.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:16am PT
easy does it, rox. my advice: open up a window in word, type your replies, then sit on them for at least an hour, if not 24. trust me, i've been in editorial work. some things work with heat, others don't. and the flying fickle finger of taco nuke may one day point at you. darwin had a bulldog, but truth doesn't really need one. bulldog work only gratifies the bulldog.

yes, history channel--that was a surprise for me. i only thought they were into civil war re-enactment and the like, but their ancient aliens is running better than a hot hollywood sitcom. i've been reviewing all this material, rather way too much of it, since becoming unemployed in november. yes, you eventually adopt a point of view, which is inherently treacherous, witness linda moulton howe. richard dolan, who makes the "hall of fame" link i gave, will probably wind up in the "hall of shame" before long. jacques vallee, with impeccable scientific credentials and an homage from none other than stephen spielberg, seems to be retreating to the comfort of high-tech contracts and a much-lowered UFO profile. that in itself arouses suspicion.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:50am PT

So the thing is, what would really make little old earth such an appealing destination for any species able to master the technical improbabilities of interstellar travel? Seems like a lot of hubris to think we're anything special. If "they" exist, then we're like a pack of lemurs comparatively. And the old sci-fi trope of mineral exploitation is absurd, there are plenty of raw materials out there that could be scooped up without having to play hide and seek with a bunch of pesky locals.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
There has only been intelligent life on earth for a veritable femtosecond on galactic time-scales - hard to imagine us even being detected yet let alone be visited hundreds or thousands of times by what is proposed to be a veritable smorgasbord of alien species.

And, yet again, interstellar space travel means time travel - so unless time travel is common as snot it just ain't happening. And when you look at the near-infinite energy requirements that would likely be necessary to time travel you have wonder why any species capable of a) wielding that much energy, and b) detecting our planet as being of interest, would expend the time, effort, and energy to come here and just endlessly dick around decade after decade instead of simply making themselves known and getting to the point.

I find it fascinating that the proponents of god, sasquatch, nessie, aliens, and ghosts are absolutely convinced all the above are real, but no one can ever produce such an entity. Fantasy is fun, but in the end none of them are any more real than the easter bunny, santa claus, or the tooth fairy.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Feb 21, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Alot more UFOs are probably seen than reported. Like the situation with Sprites, Blue Jets, Elves, Giants, .....; the strange electrical phenomena above thunderstorms.



For the longest time, scientists didn't even know that extremely bright, split-second bursts of lightning called sprites were happening in Earth's upper atmosphere.

"There were some rumors of them," said geophysicist Hans Stenbaek-Nielson, with the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. "Pilots had seen them, but back in the early '90s no pilot was willing to acknowledge that they saw something up there because that would result (in questions about) their mental state."

http://news.discovery.com/space/sprites-lightning-climate-111207.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper-atmospheric_lightning

http://www.sky-fire.tv/index.cgi/spritesbluejetselves.html#25
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
Rokjox and Tony Bird,


Thanks for being open-minded and coming to my defense at times. I appreciate it.

I don't think I will ever understand closed-mindedness. What is the harm in thinking outside the box?

I'm not teaching the "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" in my classes. I stick to the CA State Standards.

People who act like this really scare me, and remind me of what happened in Nazi Germany not so long ago ...



When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 21, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
Please...
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Feb 21, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
dirtbag, Port and Ricky,

F*#k off you maricons.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Cry me a river.


Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
Rox, what makes you think my comments are worth the 5 min it took you to write your last response? I'm glad you think so highly of me.

"Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

It's important to call a fool, a fool. But it's also important to not waist my time.

And Klimmer, hold the melodrama. You have a right to spew complete BS, and we all have a right to call you out on it. Comparing yourself to Martin Niemöller is total crap.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Rox has been nuked.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
Rox has been nuked.

I dont see anything in his last few posts to warrant that. Was he on probation? He did call me a Bitc* and an Assquats. What does that even mean?

BTW, Klimmer, I've never once said you shouldn't teach science to kids. I have a feeling that you NEVER talk about this material in class. You know you'd lose your job.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
I agree. There is discussion about it in the LEB thread. I haven't read that thread closely enough to figure out why he got canned.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
Port and dirtbag . . . why don't you crawl back under your respective rocks.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
Someone posting preposterous bullshit as a plausible explanation for...well, just about anything should be called on it. And the fact he teaches science is troubling to say the least.

I don't give a crap if that offends your delicate sensibilities.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Dirtbag,

You'd have something to say against all the Fathers of Modern Science:

Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and even to some extent Einstein. The list could go on and on . . .

All men of faith, and all great men of science.

No doubt they believed many things you probably think are absolutely nuts. Anyone who has faith already knows there are ETs. They are called GOD (YAHWEY), his son Jesus Christ (YESHUA), Angels, and all kinds of heavenly hosts.

Yes, people of faith already know there are intelligent beings that are out there that abode off Earth. So by definition they are ETs. But they aren't little green men. And yes there are ETs that would do mankind harm also. You have THE GOOD, those with GOD, and the bad, those with the fallen angel Lucifer.


Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction. Read the Bible. Read the Book of Enoch.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 22, 2012 - 01:07am PT
the scenario being proposed, healye, is not that humans have suddenly come of age and haven't had time to attract alien attention, but that aliens have been aware of, and involved with, our evolution for quite some time. this scenario can make great sense of long-ago miraculous material in many religious traditions. some suggest that jesus was a well-meaning alien hybrid, trying to help and teach us, but not quite having all the answers. this explanation could never have been dreamt of in the past, but today we're confronted with a rash of abduction accounts which depict aliens who seem to have intense interest in breeding and tampering with us genetically.

klimmer cites the apocryphal book of enoch, believed to have been written around 300 b.c. and not accepted by jews or christians, but depicting events easily explained by concepts of contemporary ufology.

what i challenge klimmer with, however, is his adherence to a traditional faith. if various aliens are involved here, neither the good ones nor the bad ones are capable of leveling with us. instead, we get a constant patronization. it seems to have spawned a dangerous elite, a "breakway" culture bent on leaving the bulk of humanity behind in a heavily controlled state of ignorance. and beyond that, you don't really have an almighty god. the god you seem to be banking on is just a player in a universe decidedly out of his control.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Feb 22, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Right on TB!

The center cannot hold . . . we must overcome!
dirtbag

climber
Feb 22, 2012 - 02:00am PT





bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 22, 2012 - 02:31am PT
I will admit I have never opened this thread, but with all the whackos gone, a thread with such an intriguing title and 2300+ posts suddenly appeared worth examining.

I didn't make it all the way through the second post. I was too taken by the first, Kimmer's OP.

So Klimmer, if you're still out there, do you really beleive, or even accept as a remote possibility, or as an unsettled scientific question that merits further examination, that there may or may not be a giant alien "Ark", or interstellar space travel craft the size of Manhattan, exposed on the surface of the dark side of the moon?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Feb 22, 2012 - 11:04am PT
check this link, bvb. it makes klimmer's material look pretty tame:

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/

the problem with these discussions is that people try to pin other people down on subjects which are essentially speculative. don't ask klimmer what he "believes", unless perhaps you want to talk religion. think of it like shopping for something big and expensive. you do a lot of shopping before you're ready to buy. and if you're smart, you talk about it with friends.

that link posits that there's one hell of a lot going on on the moon. do i "believe" it? still shopping.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2012 - 02:52am PT
Google Moon is getting clearer with more imagery from the LRO. These are screen shots from Google Moon using the LRO mosaic layer:

Massive Mothership/Ark on the Moon . . .

















Red/Blue Stereo Anagram of Mothership:






New educational film released by NASA LRO . . .


Latest SciTech
Narrated tour of the moon
Mar 15, 2012 - 4:39 -
NASA gets you up close and personal
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1510801017001/narrated-tour-of-the-moon/?playlist_id=86861

NASA video shows the moon's 4.5 billion year evolution
Published March 15, 2012
Space.com
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/03/15/nasa-video-shows-moons-45-billion-year-evolution/




Izsak D craters are to the far left center . . .






Edit:


Obviously Google Moon isn't using the highest resolution images available from LRO for their mosaic background. But none-the-less it is there just where we know it is, as other higher resolution images taken by the Apollo missions clearly show.

If they were to release the highest resolution LRO images of Izsak D crater region so you could see the details of boulders clearly we would all know without a doubt.

I think I already do. It shows just fine in stereograms of Apollo mission images already.

I don't think they will be willing to release higher resolution LRO images of this exact spot anytime soon unless they are willing to fully disclose. I don't think they are there yet.

But for those curious enough to know the truth, we already know.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 16, 2012 - 08:55am PT
Hey, the LRO has images so clear you can see the astronaut and rover trails clear as day. Where's the clear beef on an object bigger than than entire lunar landing site?

Meanwhile, vampire UFOs are sucking our Sun dry...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:30am PT
I don't think they will be willing to release images of this exact spot anytime soon unless they are willing to fully disclose. I don't think they are there yet.


Yes, I'm also quite sure The They are purposely hiding all kinds of slam dunk data proving once and for all the existence of Noah's Ark on the moon.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:41am PT
Oh, ye of little perspicacity. I have indisputable proof that 'they' are
among us or, at least, among the IRS clones. I was audited because 'they'
didn't think I could be paying such a high lease on a commercial property
in SoCal when in fact I had found an extremely good deal! Well, that's
hard to argue with isn't it?



















OK, there is the possibility that the IRS clones its 'people' with Arkansas stock.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:57am PT
just in time, klim. teacher kicked us out for playing dogpile. i was gonna havta sit in the principal's office next to some big, smelly bullies.

get off this old ark, already. the moon is a beehive. holographic projections hide everything. if something leaks through to google, john lear says it gets airbrushed. sounds pretty far out, but you have to take stuff like this into account:

http://www.ianslunarpages.org/tlp.html

you should also remember the headlines when the apollo take-off unit crashed back onto the lunar surface:

moon rings like bell.

it kept ringing for an hour. sumbitch is hollow.

john lear is a real bad boy. he thinks the moon was towed into place. he says it isn't a coinkydink that it's a big, fat moon and we never get to see the backside, where they keep the forests that tend the atmosphere. yomomma will tell you to stay away from him.

are you playing with girls these days? hope you stay out of trouble.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 16, 2012 - 11:25am PT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Mar 16, 2012 - 11:45am PT
here's what teacher's pet was talking about:


kinda looks like a lower primate, huh? doesn't even have a swami on--looks like BIAC.

klimmer, do you think gorillas can climb without bolts?

please leave emotion out of these discussions.

it's easy to get tired of john lear. he was spoiled by his rich dad and has had attitude all his life. all his friends get in big trouble, but he never has to pay for it.

this guy here gets in trouble and stays in trouble. he got fired from his teaching job, and he has a phd. stupid guy, huh? much smarter to teach little kids. one nice thing about him, though. he wears great aloha shirts.

http://news.exopoliticsinstitute.org/index.php/19630/

no emotions now.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 19, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Here ya go, Klimmer, a chance to really make a difference.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Mar 20, 2012 - 11:07am PT
klimmer take note: i don't think cintune's narrator would be very good in bed.

you know about GIGO, right? here's a fella who doesn't use the data NASA prepares for him:

http://www.boomslanger.com/moon.htm

and isn't it interesting how several astronauts themselves have gone through the looking glass?

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47clark_mcclelland/index.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
There is really now so much evidence and very important people in the know coming forward and spilling the beans regarding disclosure of ET among us and visiting (at least that is what they purport to be), and yet a certain very powerful country that many other nations look up to, continues to stonewall the truth . . .



NASA USA Heroes who have spilled the beans . . .

PhD Werner Von Braun

Astronaut Gordon Cooper

Astronaut John Glenn

Astronaut Neil Armstrong

Astronaut Buzz Aldrin

Astronaut Edward Mitchell

and more . . .


NASA Astronaut Trainer
Clark McClelland

Really good listen . . .

Rense Radio-Clark McClelland Pt. 1.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7srx5CgSzk
Rense Radio-Clark McClelland Pt. 2.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5Ub65qP1rg
Rense Radio-Clark McClelland Pt. 3.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz93ewMQFj0
Rense Radio-Clark McClelland Pt. 4.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMpIMkPPohQ



Many Military officers have come forward:

Too may to list them all.

Col. Phillip Corso
Book -- "The Day After Roswell"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/067101756X/ref=sib_dp_pop_fc?ie=UTF8&p=S001#reader-link

See "The Disclosure Project"
http://www.disclosureproject.org/



Presidents who knew/know:

Eisenhower (infamous ET Edward Airforce Base visitation)

JFK (had to know, and a good deal of evidence suggesting he did. Famous speech on secret organizations within the US.)

Nixon (ET visitation along with Jacky Gleeson)

Jimmy Carter (witnessed UFOs and told he couldn't know the secrets of Area 51 by Bush when he asked)

Ronald (Raygun) Reagan (witnessed UFOs)

Bush Senior (the director of the CIA he knew, along with Rumsfeld and Cheney. Also he's a 322 Skull and Bones member.)

Clinton (Publically wanted to know the truth and asked to know. Like Carter he was closed out from knowing. I think he does know)

Bush Junior (daddy told him the "forbidden secret knowledge." Also he's a 322 Skull and Bones member)

Obama -- Does he know? I think he does. Recall his long visit to Nevada's Nellis AFB and not far from Area 51. Easy to do a short secret side visit. Also see his Roswell comments he made recently while visiting NM.

President: "I announced to people when I landed that I come in peace"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002454732
http://news.ph.msn.com/top-stories/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=6017689

A lighthearted President Barack Obama joked that although he had landed in Roswell he could not disclose if extra-terrestrials had done the same in a flying saucer in 1947.

"I announced to people when I landed that I come in peace," said the US leader, mocking an expression attributed to alien species in numerous works of fiction, including the animated blockbuster comedy "Toy Story."

"Let me tell you, there are nine- and 10-year-old boys... when I meet them they ask me, have you been to Roswell, and is it true what they say?" Obama said.

"And I tell them, If I told you I'd have to kill you. And you know, their eyes get all big," the president added in Maljamar, a town 80 kilometers (50 miles) away from Roswell, where he was trumpeting his energy policy.

"We're gonna keep our secrets here!" he concluded.


Way to joke with 9 and 10 year olds Mr. President. Gee, they can go home and tell their parents the POTUS mentioned that if he told me something secret he would have to kill me. Nnnnniiiiiiiiiccccceeee.



Some of the best books:


UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record
[Hardcover] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332629477&sr=8-1

    They're here and here's the proof.



UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities [Hardcover]
John B. Alexander Ph.D. (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Conspiracies-John-Alexander-Ph-D/dp/0312648340/ref=pd_sim_b_7

    They're here and the US gov and military is just as baffled as everyone else (that is a load of 100% USDA Bovine Dung).




The Christian perspective: What are UFOs and ET really . . .

Jesus Christ said regarding his return "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man." Luke 17:26 (KJV)

The last days massive deception is that Fallen Angels, Nephilim, and Demons are and will masquerade as benevolent and not-so benevolent UFOs/ET to fool mankind. "Worship and idolize us, because we are mankind's Creator. We set evolution into motion." They are liars and imposters. They will also come bearing gifts -- high technology that we lust after. It is just as a book below suggests, "Operation Trojan Horse." Jesus Christ warned us in many ways, and he told us not to be fooled.


PhD Chuck Missler
Return of the Nephilim - Chuck Missler - Part 1/12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odfsxlm5Fp0

PhD Michael Heiser
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/
http://www.facadethebook.com/
http://michaelsheiser.com/UFOReligions/

David Flynn
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/
Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars [Paperback]
David E. Flynn (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Cydonia-The-Secret-Chronicles-Mars/dp/0972134719/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332632013&sr=1-1


As The Days of Noah Were: The Sons of God and The Coming Apocalypse [Paperback] Minister Dante Fortson (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Days-Noah-Were-Apocalypse/dp/1451560540/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332633141&sr=1-1

    got Theistic Evolution wrong but the rest of the book is really spot on.


FINAL EVENTS and the Secret Government Group on Demonic UFOs and the Afterlife [Paperback]
Nick Redfern (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/EVENTS-Secret-Government-Demonic-Afterlife/dp/1933665483/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=INF3AT3IR4JS&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults [Paperback]
Jacques Vallee (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Messengers-Deception-UFO-Contacts-Cults/dp/097572004X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2G9FMZ5NRK1P4&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Operation Trojan Horse [Paperback]
John A. Keel (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Operation-Trojan-Horse-John-Keel/dp/0962653462/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=IR4NOVGLU36V3&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Alien Resistance:
http://www.alienresistance.org/
http://www.alienresistance.org/alienresistancevideos.htm

dirtbag

climber
Mar 24, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
This sh#t would be funny if the proponent wasn't a science teacher.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 07:50pm PT
DB,

Some people are way ahead of the curve and then some people are way behind.

Catch up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
There is no curve, only wishful thinking, hustlers, nutjobs, and the deluded all brought together by the power of the Internet. Now no myth, fable, or lie is so outlandish as to fail to attract a following. Lunatics no longer howl at the moon alone, instead now raising up a din of pseudo-science noise impenetrable by reason, fact, common sense and other vestigial artifacts of intelligent life
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 24, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Klimmer may be a few fries short of a Happy Meal, but he seems harmless enough.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
Mar 24, 2012 - 05:32pm PT

Klimmer Bro
You put alot of hard work in each post, which is commendable

Maybe you can work with us skeptics a little

specify one link we should check out, that will set us straight, and show concrete evidence of aliens here on earth





Read Leslie Kean and John Alexander's books:


UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record [Hardcover] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307716848/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332629477&sr=8-1

    They're here and here's the proof.



UFOs: Myths, Conspiracies, and Realities[Hardcover]
John B. Alexander Ph.D. (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Conspiracies-John-Alexander-Ph-D/dp/0312648340/ref=pd_sim_b_7

    They're here and the US gov and military is just as baffled as everyone else (that is a load of 100% USDA Bovine Dung).




Edit:

Why bring Happy Meals into this? What have they ever done to deserve this reputation? Lol.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 24, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
That's like saying, "Can you please summarize and prove the validity of the Bible in just a link or two."

Can't be done unless each link/article is exhaustive. Then you might as well just read the book.

What's the difference between reading a book and a really long exhaustive research article? They're the same thing.

Ok, one you have to purchase and the other maybe not, unless from an on-line scientific journal distributor.


By the way, both books I mentioned are available at Amazon on Kindle for cheap.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Mar 24, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
the ufo field has been around a long time, craig, and it's a squiggly can of worms. you're a little hard to figure--you keep challenging people to prove things to you in spite of having your mind made up on just about everything. if you're curious about this area, you've got the brains and research abilities to look into it. then come on back and discuss it with those of us who have begun to take it seriously. you'll have to judge by your own standards what to pursue and what not to pursue. asking klimmer to give you one or two links is like asking a doctor to give you a couple links for a pain you have in your chest.

that said, the ufo watchdog might be as good a place to start as any. i don't agree with all entries into the "hall of shame" and the "hall of fame," but you have to give those fellows credit for some critical thinking and trying to make sense of the circus:

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/hall_of_shame.htm

another good way to begin is to google some of the websites involving ufos and u.s. presidents. they will give you a whole history from the days when ufos were taken seriously until the days when the president of the united states was no longer given security clearance to examine all the files.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Mar 31, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
There is no curve, only wishful thinking, hustlers, nutjobs, and the deluded all brought together by the power of the Internet. Now no myth, fable, or lie is so outlandish as to fail to attract a following. Lunatics no longer howl at the moon alone, instead now raising up a din of pseudo-science noise impenetrable by reason, fact, common sense and other vestigial artifacts of intelligent life

This is very true and it is unfortunate that it is the basis of a much darker side of the internet than harmless conspiracy theories.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Mar 31, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
There is no curve, only wishful thinking, hustlers, nutjobs, and the deluded all brought together by the power of the Internet. Now no myth, fable, or lie is so outlandish as to fail to attract a following. Lunatics no longer howl at the moon alone, instead now raising up a din of pseudo-science noise impenetrable by reason, fact, common sense and other vestigial artifacts of intelligent life


+1
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 31, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
+2

This thread is Exhibit A.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Mar 31, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
I'm sensing another PhD Mike Bolte reference in our future.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 31, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Gee, when you guys weren't looking and paying attention disclosure already happened. Call all those USA NASA heroes "nut-jobs" to their faces.

Debunk Leslie Kean's book on UFOs. I dare you.


I am right about the object on the back-side of the Moon. It's some form of massive craft right where is shows up now in many official images. It's in too many official NASA images in full 3D resolution to not be there.

I was right about the missile off the coast of CA also, as are the many others who know it was a missile.



Some people are brave enough to speak their mind when the evidence presents itself. Others just sit back and hurl insults and ad hominem meaningless and thoughtless attacks, because that's all they got.

Sad.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 12:48am PT
thanks for that kean reference, klimmer--for some reason i hadn't come across her yet.

i see michio kaku has a series of interviews with her. the UFO watchdog calls him "the biggest breath of fresh air to the UFO debate in years".

have you checked the link to the so-called kardashev scale? considered in that context, john lear's moon fantasies aren't quite so fantastic.

i'll tell you what i'm convinced about, however. i get so tired of hearing people "calling for" investigations and half-assed research which can only take place in a vacuum.

ufology is divided into two broad camps. people like leslie kean, the late allen hynek, all the careful, science-oriented investigators, following up on sighting reports, painstakingly sifting the provable from the flaky. they're fools. they do it without the approval or cooperation of government. files are locked, secret bases are closed, robotic press secretaries issue denial after denial, while some of the very people involved, like the astronauts themselves, claim there are UFOs and aliens among us. hynek, you have to remember, was a prominent astronomer, hired by the government to help debunk it all, and then they had to try to debunk him.

the other camp is a flying circus, crowded with new agers, hoaxers, charlatans and the gullible. they believe everything that comes along. they have populated the universe with angels, devils, talls, grays, nordics, reptilians, annunakis, pleidians, the list goes on and on. there are thousands of aliens and alien hybrids among us, walking the streets of our big cities, holed up underground in nevada and new mexico conducting classes with scientists and military. i understand barack obama spent some time on mars as part of his training for his current position. there are good ETs and bad ETs and holy, spiritual ETs and self-interested ETs which resemble, in many ways, the klingons of star trek. next month there will be a big convention in l.a. hosted by george noory which will tell all of its believing crowd about the end time which will happen later this year.

what can anyone do? the government is obviously keeping a lid on a lot. why? we can only imagine the worst.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 1, 2012 - 01:46am PT
We're gonna die.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 02:32am PT
perhaps there is nothing to keep a lid on?

the response wasn't as wooden... regarding the USG acknowledging the existence of ETs...

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/response/searching-et-no-evidence-yet

OFFICIAL WHITE HOUSE RESPONSE TO
formally acknowledge an extraterrestrial presence engaging the human race - Disclosure. and 1 other petition
Searching for ET, But No Evidence Yet
By Phil Larson

Thank you for signing the petition asking the Obama Administration to acknowledge an extraterrestrial presence here on Earth.

The U.S. government has no evidence that any life exists outside our planet, or that an extraterrestrial presence has contacted or engaged any member of the human race. In addition, there is no credible information to suggest that any evidence is being hidden from the public's eye.

However, that doesn't mean the subject of life outside our planet isn't being discussed or explored. In fact, there are a number of projects working toward the goal of understanding if life can or does exist off Earth. Here are a few examples:

SETI—the Search for ExtraTerrestrial Intelligence—was originally stood up with help from NASA, but has since been moved to other sources of private funding. SETI's main purpose is to act as a giant ear on behalf of the human race, pointing an array of ground-based telescopes towards space to listen for any signal from another world.

Kepler is a NASA spacecraft in orbit that's main goal is to search for Earth-like planets. Such a planet would be located in the "Goldilocks" zone of a distant solar system—not too hot and not too cold—and could potentially be habitable by life as we know it. The Kepler mission is specifically designed to survey our region of the Milky Way galaxy to discover Earth-sized, rocky planets in or near the habitable zone of the star (sun) they orbit.

The Mars Science Laboratory, Curiosity, is an automobile-sized rover that NASA is launching soon. The rover's onboard laboratory will study rocks, soils, and other geology in an effort to detect the chemical building blocks of life (e.g., forms of carbon) on Mars and will assess what the Martian environment was like in the past to see if it could have harbored life.

A last point: Many scientists and mathematicians have looked with a statistical mindset at the question of whether life likely exists beyond Earth and have come to the conclusion that the odds are pretty high that somewhere among the trillions and trillions of stars in the universe there is a planet other than ours that is home to life.

Many have also noted, however, that the odds of us making contact with any of them—especially any intelligent ones—are extremely small, given the distances involved.

But that's all statistics and speculation. The fact is we have no credible evidence of extraterrestrial presence here on Earth.

Phil Larson works on space policy and communications at the White House Office of Science & Technology Policy

Relevant Links:

SETI
NASA Kepler Mission
NASA Mars Science Laboratory
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 05:42am PT
...we can only imagine.

There's the heart of it right there...
WBraun

climber
Apr 1, 2012 - 10:50am PT
The fact is we have no credible evidence of extraterrestrial presence here on Earth.

Hey .... look at me!!!!

I'm from outer space ...... :-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 10:54am PT
Ed,


Do Governments ever lie?

The answer to that question is an obvious "Yes, they certainly do."





There are many Governments now disclosing their UFO incidents, records, studies, and witness testimonies:

UK
France
Canada
Brazil
Belgium
Mexico
Russia (to some degree)
and many more countries etc.

The one country, the USA, a nation that knows the most in this whole UFO/ET regard continues to ignore, deny, obfuscate, spread disinfo, and yes lie. The US government even has a record, a history, of silencing witnesses. They even go as far as threatening, or worse murdering, witnesses to keep their mouths shut. Why go to these lengths if there is nothing to hide? Read the great book Witness to Roswell.



NASA Tether Incident
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUEFcSesD-w&feature=player_embedded

(From what I know this was filmed in UV. The astronauts and Houston are communicating regarding the phenomenon that is being seen. They are there. Many of these pulsing "crafts" or whatever they are fly behind tether that is many miles away. They also sometimes change direction and speed. Many have the same unusual shape: disk shape with hollow core like a donut, with obvious notches in the disk shape. They also pulse. Most seem to be of this design. Whatever they are they do indeed "swarm" tether.)


“Uploaded by wjbombo on Sep 8, 2009
In February of 1996 NASA space shuttle mission STS-75 carried a 12 mile tether for experimentation with electrical power generation from the ionosphere. The experiment itself is quite interesting, but what happened after it broke away was (IMO) even MORE interesting... The tether was SWARMED with moving objects, many of which can be seen moving BEHIND the tether indicating enormous size (1-3 miles in diameter). If you watch carefully you'll notice that some of the objects CHANGE DIRECTION showing intelligent control.”




Space Shuttle Flight 75 (STS-75) "Columbia"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3uEeAeJF5Q&feature=related

(By the way, nice overflights of the Himalayas and Everest)







"Yea, nothing to see here please move along" . . . pppppppppppffffffttt. What a load of 100% USDA Bovine Dung.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Not this again. Klim - ever seen an out-of-focus image for a catadioptric lens? Do you know what the dark circles in the center, notches at the edge and occasional vignetting of the glowing orbs in the "tether" incident tell you about the camera used to make those videos? You might want to quietly back away from using the "tether" incident as evidence of UFOs. At least stick to things that are not so trivially debunked.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 1, 2012 - 12:00pm PT
There are a fair number of astronauts who believe in "UFO's."

A UFO just means that it is unidentified. Sometimes it is little ice crystals, like what John Glenn saw on the first orbital mission. Those have been seen numerous times since and are common.

Others are damn weird, and come from highly respected astronauts with huge science and engineering backgrouds.

The universe is a big place, and most people who have pondered the likelihood of intelligent life in the universe conclude that it is highly likely that life exists elsewhere.

On earth, life was composed entirely of bacteria for billions of years. When things evolved into multicellular critters, it really took off. Defining the word "intelligent" is tough. There are lots of critters who can communicate well with language, and obviously have a concept of abstract ideas. Whales do this well, for example.

It is a very exciting topic that isn't dying down. Lots of great science fiction books on the matter. The movie "2001" is fantastic on this topic, but the Arthur C. Clarke book that was written to explain the movie clearly is a must read.

The question arises, "Are we special?" Special enough to warrant the attention of more intelligent critters from elsewhere? Lets say that bacterial life is common, but intelligent life is very rare. If that is the case, Earth may be a great place for another intelligent species to study and nudge along simply because of our precious presence.

This is limited only by your imagination, but like all things it must be treated skeptically. Don't go believe everything you hear.

There are tons of UFO sightings from sources who we would consider rational. The topic also lends itself to what I would refer to as lovable nutjobs.

There are also the non-lovable nutjobs such as the cult who committed suicide in SoCal when the comet Hale Bopp was happening.

As an example of a lovable type, there is this woman called Nancy who used to constantly invade the old sci.astro newsgroup on the old usenet. She really went nutso about the comet Hale-Bopp, and she was such a phenomena that a ton of scientists and astronomers (really big names) held a star party with telescopes on the sidewalk in front of her house or apartment. She didn't come out to join. Seriously, she succesfully trolled that crowd for at least a couple of years, and even kept a copy of the discussions on her website for ages. Things she predicted never panned out, but she is still going at it and more popular than ever.

She claims to be a human in contact with the "Zetas." Now she has this incredibly dense website about impending doom. It was always about some impending doom, but I freaked when I saw her mentioned on CNN or something as an example of people freaking over the Mayan apocalypse.

The website is a fascinating social phenomena if nothing else, and you guys absolutely must go check it out. It is famous among the astronomy and astrophysics crowd because Nancy was such a familiar character who would troll and argue non-stop on an otherwise very scientific forum.

She has a huge following now. PLEASE spend a few fascinating minutes checking out her website.

Check it out. It will blow your mind:

http://zetatalk.com/

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 1, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Even "bright" people are easily fooled.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
klimmer writes:
Ed,
Do Governments ever lie?
The answer to that question is an obvious "Yes, they certainly do."


how do you know that, klimmer?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Read Howard Zinn's book on the History of United States.

How many countless embarrassing and immoral examples do you want to bring up?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
picking up on baseman's reasoning. life evolves on earth. wow--what an incredible thing! i'll bet some guys on here have trouble believing it.

big universe. maybe life happens elsewhere. like, duh.

earth, backwater planet, saggitarius arm, milky way, local group. nice neighbors out there, beautiful andromeda and, for you southerners, a couple of magellanic clouds. way zillions of stars and, wow, some of 'em got planets!

more stuff difficult to believe.

so, just shut yourself into a closet and think for a minute. life evolves away, gets fancier, smarter. you got beethoven, you got einstein, both of them verifiable primates. then you got atomic bombs. might this have happened elsewhere just a wee bit prior to it happening here?

like, duh.

enrico fermi: "then, where are they?"

erik von daeniken: been coming and going for a long time.

world war 2. foo fighters. check it out. the "battle of los angeles". check it out.

late 40s, early 50s--lots and lots and lots of ufo incidents. back then, they all make the newspapers. president truman makes the public statement, "if they exist, they are not of this world".

then roswell, rumors of an eisenhower "deal", and it all goes underground. please debunk this crap for us, allen hynek. do you want that job, ed?

it gets a little richer than "lovable nut jobs" when you start back-engineering mythology, something klimmer, who accepts only the bible, is just starting out with. there is tremendous archaeological evidence for goings-on that neither caveman nor caesar were capable of. to mention just a couple, the nasca plain of peru and the existence of vitrified fortresses. and then there are all those pyramids, middle east, china, central america. a deep, universal human instinct to imitate mountains with our construction abilities? maybe. but maybe, if gravity travel is possible, an accurate pyramidal mass may somehow figure into that. just a hunch.

some fellers on here love to look at pictures. "press release" this:


Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Read Howard Zinn's book on the History of United States.
How many countless embarrassing and immoral examples do you want to bring up?


so you're saying that the USG has trouble keeping immoral and embarrassing acts secret?
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 1, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Ed, Gulf of Tonkin, for one.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
my point is that those "secrets" of extreme national importance aren't "secrets" for very long,

so I am highly skeptical that something that klimmer purports to be a conspiracy has kept a secret for 60+ years... maybe it's just me...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
Ed,


The UFO/ET phenomenon isn't really a secret anymore. Many people now know world-wide regardless of dishonest governments.

I am pointing out the fact that the evidence is very overwhelming that its happening, and many honest Nations are coming forward and are admitting to what they know, and sharing the data and records publicly, but not the USA.

It the face of all this overwhelming evidence now, the USA stubbornly lies and continues to use excuses like "swamp gas," "tricks of light," "nothing to it," "doesn't exist," "whack-jobs," "nut-cases" etc. etc. etc.

The most infamous UFO case in the World is our very own "Roswell." Our government has changed the official story 3-4 times now, and their story still doesn't add up. Witnesses who are honest have come forth and we know what happened. Many were threatened, and some were killed, to silence them. But thank GOD for brave souls. They came forward and spoke the truth regardless of the dangers from our very own government.

Read Witness to Roswell.

Read Col. Corso's book, The Day After Roswell.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 05:20pm PT
1 light year = 5,878,625,373,183.6 miles

Voyager 1 will require 17,500 more years to reach one light-year

It's back to space travel is time travel and to time travel you'd need access to and control of near infinite energies.

So what you UFO fanboys are really saying - in order to account for the positive orgy and menagerie of UFOs sightings - is that a veritable boatload of advanced societies managed to survive themselves and the biology of their planets, achieved time travel, and discovered Earth coincidental to modern human existence, and then have decided we are a veritable Miami Beach destination for time travelers. And all these busybody time travelers have found it worthwhile to come here over and over and yet never simply land in Central Park or on the Mall and say 'hi'.

Of course, dudes!!! You are so damn right! And it's been right in front of me all this time!!! We are definitely a special planet and such an exceptional species how could we not become THE galactic hotspot to expend energy to visit despite our only actually existing as an intelligent species for a galactic femtosecond.

The only real mystery that remains is where are their manners? Is it our breathe or body odor? Did Lucy say something wrong in her TV show? I'd like to know so maybe we could fix it and start partying with all these obviously too-cool-for-school time travelers.

P.S. "...overwhelming evidence..." - there is no 'evidence'. As in zero, nada, zip, and none whatsoever. There are only desperate imaginations and hustlers of one stripe or another.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 1, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
I asked that same question above, dude. Are we special? We might be, we might not be. We don't know.

I have no idea if we are being visited by aliens. It would be kind of cool, though.

Klimmer. I am taking you on over on the science/religion thread and now you post Zimm's commie marxist book? I would give you a peck on the cheek.

Everyone should read that book. Yeah, he just dwells on the negatives. It is just that there are so many negatives.

Back to Ed: What he is saying is that it is very difficult to keep a secret of that magnitude. Conspiracies tend to fall apart.

I wouldn't say that that is a rule. I would call it an observation. A likelihood that it isn't possible to keep a secret of that magnitude.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 1, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
the evidence is very overwhelming that its happening, and many honest Nations are coming forward and are admitting to what they know

Klim - you have never posted any link with anything remotely close to "very overwhelming" evidence!

As a little check on your standards: do you think the out-of-focus donuts floating around in the shuttle movies is overwhelming evidence of intelligent extraterrestrial life traveling around in the upper atmosphere?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
Well maybe someone could explain to me exactly how 'special' we can be if advanced, time traveling civilizations are a veritable dime-a-dozen?

For every planetary civilization that would survive themselves and their planet to harness unlimited energy there would have to be tens of millions, if not billions, of planets with societies that didn't survive to time travel. That, boys and girls, would make planets like ours absolutely common as sknott. I.e. nowhere special, no big deal, not worth expending vast resources for a way-out-of-the-way trip to visit let alone do it the thousands of times commonly speculated by UFO fanboys.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Well, I believe it as we do have "...overwhelming evidence..." of an endless litany of UFO nut and wack jobs here on Earth, some of whom mix it with religion and establish cults, several of which have come to bad endings. Sad all the way around, but not necessarily all that much further down the bell curve from Klimmer and hence the sense of concern that gets expressed at times.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Something actually real and plausible: Dead stars 'to guide spacecraft' (even if not particularly useful for time travel).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
Cross-posting from another thread . . .


Mar 29, 2012 - 11:02pm PT

And that Moses guy built an ark while everyone else died. And somehow repopulated? I was never really sure where that story was going... And the ark is now some how on the moon? Wtf Mate.




C'mon. How long are you guys gonna use that joke regarding an "Ark on the Moon"? I called it that tongue-in-cheek, and to get a rise out of you all. It worked big-time.

C'mon it isn't Noah's Ark on the Moon. If anything it is an ET "Ark" of sorts. A Mothership if you will.

Heck, even Transformers: Dark of the Moon called the craft on the backside of the Moon an "Ark."

I stand vindicated.




You do all know that validation of UFOs/ET phenomenon is evidence that points to GOD being real don't you?

If ETs are actually masquerading Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons, then GOD is real and what he says in The Good Book is true.

Ponder that.



The best book and very real evidence, and I dare you all to debunk Leslie's book. If you want the evidence it is available . . .

See her website:
http://ufosontherecord.com/



You might want to read Leslie Kean's Book on UFOs/ET. They are here and its a real phenomenon.

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record [Paperback] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I7M5ZMCRSCLAU&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



Even the famous PhD Jacques Vallee, who is not a Christian, figured it out. ETs are demonic.

Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults [Paperback]
Jacques Vallee (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Messengers-Deception-UFO-Contacts-Cults/dp/097572004X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2G9FMZ5NRK1P4&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Note: by the way, Jacques Vallee was the inspiration for the French Dr. UFOlogist character in the Steven Spielberg movie Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind.












A great article on what has been recently released officially by Chile's Government/Air Force/CEFAA:


UFO Caught On Tape Over Santiago Air Base
by Leslie Kean
Huffington Post
Posted: 03/13/2012 6:22 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html?ref=science&ir=Science#s782213&title=El_Bosque_Air
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
I stand vindicated.

Delusion just doesn't get any better than this...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Referring to calling it an "Ark," yes I feel vindicated. A Hollywood block-buster called their craft on the backside of the Moon an "Ark." I called the "Apollo 20" discovered massive craft near Izsak D crater an "Ark" before they did in Dark of the Moon. I got a lot of flack from many here at ST then and still do for saying there is an Ark on the Moon.

Call it an "Ark" or Mothership, whatever, its there and its huge.

There is no doubt that the phenomenal internet story of Apollo 20 (April 2007) was great inspiration for Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and Apollo 18.




Edit:

I've already admitted that the Apollo 20 story can be and is more than likely a fake disinfo story, but there are aspects of it that are compelling. I've always had problems with it. But the craft is there no doubt. Its there in detail in Apollo 15 (3D stereopair), Apollo 17 (3D stereopair), Japan's recent video imagery, and LRO imagery now used in Google Moon.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 08:37pm PT
...phenomenal internet story of Apollo 20...

The issue is one of a common sense capability of distinguishing a 'story' from a 'fact'.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 1, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Referring to calling it an "Ark," yes I feel vindicated. A Hollywood block-buster called their craft on the backside of the Moon an "Ark."

Dude, that's because they were cribbing from the same hoax that got you all excited in the first place. We've been over this....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
Worth saying again.

A must read and watch the videos . . .

You want real evidence? Here you go.



A great article on what has been recently released officially by Chile's Government/Air Force/CEFAA:


UFO Caught On Tape Over Santiago Air Base
by Leslie Kean
Huffington Post
Posted: 03/13/2012 6:22 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html?ref=science&ir=Science#s782213&title=El_Bosque_Air



The phenomenon is real and they are here.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:18pm PT

Port-Trad climber-San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 12:24am PT
This guy is your primary source? Or are these lies told to hide the REAL truth.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
Infrared studies show the entire object is radiating heat, just like the jets.

You can't do infrared studies on video.

And, somehow, it made no sonic boom

No sonic boom because they weren't going that fast.

Scientists have estimated the speed, depending on the size of the object, to be at least 4000 - 6000 mph

They weren't going that fast because they were close to the camera, not far away. (Sorry, there is no magical way to move air out of an object's path regardless of origin - basic physics are only suspended in the imagination.)

They were close to the camera versus at great distance because they are [painfully obviously] birds.

They don't look like birds in the closeups because the closeups are forgeries and fraud is currency of folks like Leslie Kean whom have learned to mine the paucity of content in a cable world.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:37pm PT
i said there were two camps of ufology, but since klimmer brought up jacques vallee, i will admit that i almost made him a third, unto himself.

vallee, a cool-thinking credentialed scientist, a protege of hynek, has been with the field most of his life. he likes to call himself "a heretic among heretics". although not a religious person, he comes from a french catholic background and has great familiarity with ufo-religious issues.

recently vallee seems to be distancing himself from the exopoliticoes. he's well aware of all the abduction material and contactee phantasmagoria. abduction reports, if you start to take a look at them, are widespread, increasing, and terribly disturbing. they have been examined by some very serious researchers, among them, the late john mack, the late budd hopkins, and david jacobs, recently retired from temple university.

jacobs seems almost bitter about his career. he took on the subject of "the ufo controversy in america" for his phd dissertation in history at the university of wisconsin in the mid 1960s. it looked like a promising, adventuresome subject, something deserving examination by a disciplined academic. it proved to be a hot item. the dissertation was picked up by a major publisher, the dream of every phd candidate, and it set him on a career path in which he wound up teaching the only ufo course offered by an accredited university in the united states. he had to fight the administration, his fellow faculty, and even his own students. in 30 years of teaching, he never got beyond associate professor. meanwhile, the abduction material became more and more disturbing. his chief book on the subject, the threat, should give a good chill to anyone who thinks this is a "fun" area.

vallee likes to observe that most of the aliens we hear about seem quite human-like. to him, that doesn't make sense, if we're supposed to be confronting evolved beings from elsewhere in our galaxy. evolution ought to be delivering a real variety, no? his conclusion: the universe is really a subset of something else.

if you've read carl sagan's contact, a wonderful piece of scientific fiction on this subject, you follow ET contact proceeding initially from a positive SETI signal into directions on how to build a special space vehicle, to the actual meeting with our space brothers by an elite crew. the meeting takes place in a pleasant place--a sunny beach, air to breathe, a balmy day. the space bro is a kindly-looking human being, looking pretty much like one of us. he explains that this is part of an intentional illusion for the visitors' comfort. in reality, "we are very, very different."

the earthlings who stayed behind standing next to the space vehicle wondered why it hadn't gone anywhere in the space of a few minutes. the crew emerged and attempted to tell the whole, wonderful story, but no one would believe them. might as well have been a klimmer thread on supertopo.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Tony, you do know that Contact was a work of sciencefiction, don't you?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
Again, the distinction between reality, how we deal with the unknown, and great storytelling.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
I clicked on and read one of Klimmer's links

this one
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html?ref=science&ir=Science#s782213&title=El_Bosque_Air

damn interesting

how can you explain all these UFO stuff away?

I am becoming a believer in the strong possibility that we are NOT alone

why not?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
how can you explain all these UFO stuff away?

Well, in that particular case you do it by recognizing birds for what they are and not something you want them to be.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
i believe i called it scientific fiction, ed. i think there's too much science in it to put it into the "flash gordon" genre.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 1, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
One of Hynek's more rational questions:

"A few good sightings a year, over the world, would bolster the extraterrestrial hypothesis—but many thousands every year? From remote regions of space? And to what purpose? To scare us by stopping cars, and disturbing animals, and puzzling us with their seemingly pointless antics?"

You're talking tens of thousands of 'sightings' of objects of a litany of various shapes and sizes.

Look, the odds of being visited once by a single time travelling ET are so astronomical as to be ludicrous for the number of years we've been around as a species. The odds are even higher for being visited multiple times by the same ET, and utterly implausible that we are being visited by separate ET civilizaitons, in different crafts, over and over in the span of next to no time at all on a galactic scale.

So implausible that even Hynek and Vallee had to resort to 'extra-dimensional' explanations to even begin to account for there being any possibility of it at all - it's that ludicrous and preposterous a proposition.

And still Hynek's question remains - why are all these 'visits' so utterly pointless?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 1, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
Well, in that particular case you do it by recognizing birds for what they are and not something you want them to be.



I actually read the link and some seemingly credible people are pretty damn convinced
that it was not "birds"doing 3000 mph

All I am saying is that I am no longer willing to immediately pass this stuff off as fluff

KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 1, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
The Apollo 20 hoax is a story told in a series of YouTube videos of a phony manned lunar mission

In the early '70s, I "worked" at the Environmental Simulation Lab at UC Berkeley. It became evident to all of us that the moon landing was, or could be, performed in a Texas warehouse.

Sorry to have skipped about 2400 posts. Liked the part about "wormholes" in a Black Hole becoming one, or potentially, infinite, White Holes. Polish guy, like myself.

Did I miss the theory that the universe's geometry resembles that of a torus, is finite, and its appearance of infinity is an illusion caused by gravitation bending of light? Scientific American posited a model of 3 spheres, equispaced on a Cartesian x-x axis, inside of a mirrored cube. Their computer model simulated an infinity as far as could be seen.

How many sides does a cube have?

How many spheres are involved in this model?

Serious theological problems with this model.

More stuff, actually On Topic, to add. But this Thread's already all over the place.

Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 1, 2012 - 10:56pm PT
This is the highest caliber "Alien Expert"

Mimi

climber
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
Carl Sagan disputed the idea that we had ever been visited by ETs and he started the Exobiology Dept. at Cornell as I recall. He said due to the size of the universe, the odds of another capable life form coming here were extremely low. The odds of an alien ship crashing on earth's moon is also extremely low.

Why would Uncle Carl lie, Klimmer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan%27s_Baloney_Detection_Kit
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
fiction is fiction... scientific or not...

Tony would have us traveling around in the universe, perhaps like the suggestion that Sagan gave us in Contact, through "wormholes" in space time.

First off, the fastest we could go anywhere is slightly less than the speed of light. How much energy does it take to get to the speed of light? or something close to it?

We can do that by calculating the kinetic energy, T, of an object traveling at some velocity, β = pc/E, where p is the momentum, and E the total energy... E = T + mc˛ the sum of the kinetic energy and the rest mass m...
c is the speed of light.

When you are traveling at the speed of light, β=1.

Now the momentum p˛ = T(T+2mc˛) substituting this into the equation for β

T = mc˛ [1/√(1-β˛) -1]

if we are going at 90% the speed of light, then β= 0.9 and T = 1.29 mc˛

now what is mc˛? Let's just take a person at 60 kg. The speed of light is about 3E8 m/s so if this person were traveling at the speed of light, they would have 1.80E18 Joules of kinetic energy... to get to that speed the propulsion unit would have to provide at least that much energy...

How much energy is that?

There is 1.25E8 Joules/gallon of gasoline, so you would need roughly 1E10 gallons of gasoline, converted with no losses, to get you up to 90% of the speed of light.... or a hundred tons of Uranium235...

but those aren't viable fuels... not enough of them are burned up to make a dent in the velocities needed to get to speed of light velocities...

Even matter-antimatter annihilation is problematic... we don't know how to make that much antimatter, and we don't know how to store it....

but those are "just engineering problems."

Even with the formidable problems, we are only going near the speed of light, about a 5 year trip to the nearest star...

Sagan had us traveling down "wormholes" which are a strange space-time discontinuity which essentially "folds" space-time so that we don't have to go all that far, we just do the folding... but this requires energy too, and can and has been estimated...

first off, we don't know if such topologies are allowed in physics, because of the implications to causality... but let's not worry about that as we don't have concrete proofs, one way or the other.

You can read this arXiv article... science entertainment...
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0712/0712.1649v1.pdf

their estimate is that to warp space time around the volume of a "typical space craft" would require 1E45 Joules... or the energy you get from the planet Jupiter if you converted, as we did above, by the E=mc˛ equation...

needless to say, we don't know how to get that much energy yet...
...and I remind you that it might not be possible to warp space-time that way because of fundamental physical properties.

Now I would posit that we know enough about the universe to say that traveling the distances that one would have to travel is very unlikely for even advanced civilizations...


dirtbag

climber
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
I called it that tongue-in-cheek, and to get a rise out of you all. It worked big-time.

C'mon it isn't Noah's Ark on the Moon. If anything it is an ET "Ark" of sorts. A Mothership if you will.

Oh, well, that changes everything. That's legit alright.

LOL!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Read the article HJ!!!!!!


A great article on what has been recently released officially by Chile's Government/Air Force/CEFAA:


UFO Caught On Tape Over Santiago Air Base
by Leslie Kean
Huffington Post
Posted: 03/13/2012 6:22 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie-kean/the-extraordinary-ufo-sig_b_1342585.html?ref=science&ir=Science#s782213&title=El_Bosque_Air



The phenomenon is real and they are here.




HJ,

Everything you said is a joke.

They have 7 different videos showing the same visual evidence from 7 different perspectives. Did you see that they can zoom in and see the saucer shape very clearly? There are IR video cameras. Night vision mode on my video camera uses IR. It sends an IR fill light system to enhance the night scene. Did they use one? I don't know. To suggest its a bird is unbelievably ignorant. This case was released publicly after they officially completed their studies (Chile's Government/Air Force/CEFAA). The event happened in 2010. Yes, its amazing, but the UFO phenomenon witnessed all around the world with these things travel at speeds greater than the speed of sound (ave. 340m/s). And yes they do not make sonic booms eventhough they break the sound barrier. This fact has been witnessed time and time again to everyone's astonishment.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 1, 2012 - 11:51pm PT
Ok, so what if Carl Sagan and Ed are right that beings from elsewhere have never visited earth.

Let's accept that for a minute.


Is is not possible that this earth has already produced higher life forms than us?
Four billion year old earth, and homo sapiens at only some 200K years, lots of time
for alternative life to form evolve whatever perhaps way before us?

And that they somehow coexist with us without us knowing, but very occasionally getting a glimpse of, like maybe some of this "ufo" stuff, pilot sightings (many) etc?

Possible?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:01am PT
I actually read the link and some seemingly credible people are pretty damn convinced that it was not "birds"doing 3000 mph

Well, as someone who did aerial Photography and photogrammetry in the military I have zero compunction saying they are more than obviously birds. And again, NOTHING goes 3000 mph through Earth's atmosphere without tremendous heating, sound barrier booms, or without phenomenal structural and thermal integrity - and wow, time traveling space vehicles capable of phenomenal terrestrial flight characteristics, these really are smart 'people'!

Sorry, this one falls under a sucker's born every minute sort of deal.

P.S. Klimmer, I did read the article and it's a fraud in its entirety from start to finish which is Leslie Kean's stock-in-trade. Don't confuse entertaining TV and Internet content for fact or this sort of continuing fabricated PR to support it. It's bullshit start to finish.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Port-Trad climber-San Diego
May 2, 2010 - 12:24am PT
This guy is your primary source? Or are these lies told to hide the REAL truth.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Moby-Dick4000/Apollo_20_hoax



Cintune,

People can not track down this guy, Thierry Speth, a French video artist who has claimed to do it. So how does an obscure French artist who can't be found have access to all kinds of official NASA spacecrafts to get legit real to life footage?

That site you gave is a crack-pot attempt to debunk "Apollo 20" website.

I know some of the footage is faked. I know that. And the story of Apollo 20 can also be too. But I believe it was an agency who had access to this technology to be able to do so, and then try to try to make it believable. NSA? or other? Why would they do this? What was/is their purpose? Controlled disclosure. Get people used to the idea, so that when everyone knows the truth one day, it will be easier to swallow. No War of the World response from the people. They want to avoid that.

I think I know. With every true revelation of truth (disclosure), you design in plausible deniability, so you can say its BS. They get to disclose, but deny that its real all at the same time. Classic COINTEL.

They bake the cake and they get to eat it too.


The craft on the moon is real, even if the Apollo 20 story is complete fake COINTEL.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:04am PT
NOTHING goes 3000 mph through the atmosphere without tremendous heating, sound barrier booms


you are of course correct

assuming our present technological knowledge

and disregarding what we perhaps just do not know yet
Mimi

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Norton, uhh no. The length of time for evolution to occur on earth does not lend itself to 'producing' other higher life forms at a faster rate than us that then left the planet or are still among us as it were. Doesn't work that way but if aliens visited for a little probing and prodding and spread their panjizmus around, no telling what might happen. LOL!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:21am PT
The craft on the moon is real...

How amazing is it we have pictures that resolve the foot trails of Apollo astronauts and the tracks of their rover, but we don't have any clear shots of an alien spacecraft the size of Manhattan - obviously all hush-hush, qt.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:25am PT
assuming our present technological knowledge

There is no present, future, or alien technology which will ever remove air from the path of an object's travel without physical, thermal, or sonic consequences, absolutely none. And reasons behind why you can't are exactly the same as why Hynek and Vallee had to resort to inter-dimensional travel and Sagan wormholes - because there is simply no way to thwart, ditch, or otherwise ignore the basic physics of our reality.

This is where "technology" becomes a convenient fantasy rubric of ridiculous proportions.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:29am PT
I agree Mimi


I was presenting the idea as the only alternative to Carl Sagan and our Ed saying this
earth could NOT have been visited.

Therefore anything unexplanable or UFOish could have originated prior to our species.

Certainly the conditions for life itself existed for millions of years before primates.

edit: Healje, I am not "arguing" with you, does not interest me to do so.
I am as big of a natural skeptic as you are. Don't put me in any kook generalizations.
All I am doing is trying to find some explanation for things that other people put forth.

Instead of insisting anything present science and physics cannot explain is not possible,
how about you presenting some alternative thoughts.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:36am PT
Klimmer. Proof Positive.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 12:43am PT
You guys are locked in a box that you can't see out of. Massive blinders on.


Read PhD Michael Heiser . . . prologue from his book The facade . . .



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:47am PT
Instead of insisting anything present science and physics cannot explain is not possible, how about you presenting some alternative thoughts.

That's just my point, there are no "alternative thoughts" to basic physics outside of completely desperate hypotheticals like inter-dimensional travel or wormholes. They exists precisely because smart guys like Hynek, Vallee, and Sagan weren't willing to deny the very real constraints imposed by basic physics.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:52am PT
Klimmer,

Shut the fuk up about the bible and god stuff. Keep it too yourself, you are not converting anyone here.


This thread which you started is supposed to be about alien possibilities.


You don't see other people posting about horticulture or their pet bunny here.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:56am PT
Klimmer, he has an MA in the history and a PhD the bible and semitic languages. He also believes in talking to the dead and has created a name for himself writing entertaining religious science fiction. All in all that makes him no more believable about anything related to UFOs than you other than he gets people to pay him for his imagination and fantasies.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 12:57am PT
Norton,

That is the Christian point of view of what ETs really are: Fallen Angels, Nephilim, Demons.

Don't be ignorant. It's totally relevant. I have said that from the very first post. Check it.

Many who study the phenomenon are coming to this conclusion.





Even the famous Jacques Vallee who isn't a Christian came to this conclusion in his UFO/ET/abduction studies.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:15am PT
There are some very smart people on this thread telling you something Klimmer. Listen to them. These people are much smarter than you.
WBraun

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:39am PT
Smarter?

Are you sure .....
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:40am PT
i don't know how carl sagan managed to achieve the status of canonized saint of science. he was a nice television show host, interpreting a lot of science for a popular audience, but he certainly didn't give us great conceptual breakthroughs that would put him at the cutting edge of any field. my observation of him was that after his imaginative and provocative adventure in novel writing, he retreated behind the stone wall of a dismal scientific orthodoxy, and unfortunately died before he really could reconcile this polarity. he can be cited as sacred scripture for many beliefs.

physics is often concerned with matters which could easily pertain to the advanced technology we are confronted with in ufo reports. joao magueijo, a prominent cambridge physicist, for example, advances the position that the speed of light itself may be a relative thing, not the absolute which einstein told us it had to be. magueijo began with this premise as a way of explaining the physical "inflation" astronomers report in the expansion of the universe, per big bang theory. he claims that the relativity of the speed of light has since become a very workable idea.

elsewhere in physics they speak of worm-hole travel, a multitude of "extra dimensions", and "parallel" universes. i have no idea where these ideas come from, but if we have high-tech ETs hanging around our dear planet, doing us devilment and pulling weird juju, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that entities just a tad advanced from us learned how to exploit such things which are only now beginning to bend our minds.

i know what fiction is. ufos aren't.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 01:57am PT
...but if we have high-tech ETs hanging around our dear planet...

if

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:05am PT
...but if we have high-tech ETs hanging around our dear planet...

And to repeat Hynek, to what point? And as I said earlier, if they exist, then planets like ours are common as sknott - why would everyone and their intergalactic brother bother coming here.

Are you sure...

Here come the Vedic space pilots and aliens...
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:33am PT
Smarter?

Are you sure .....

You're probably right. An intelligent person would probably never post on this thread.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:38am PT
it's ok to post today, April 1st...

got another 40 minutes before I abandon it again
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 2, 2012 - 02:52am PT
This fact has been witnessed time and time again to everyone's astonishment.

My son would be the first to agree. He sees mysterious lights moving rapidly over the Whites Mtns. all the time.

Of course, Area 51 is just over the Whites, too.

Once, I was asked by a local newspaper to interview a gentleman who'd seen a UFO while driving home one night, past China Lake. I'd been asked to produce an "Artist's Conception" of it. Which, on completion, he liked.

A couple 3 years later, Stealth aircraft are made public. Nothing like sipping a cool one, by the Furnace Creek Inn pool, surrounded by summer German tourists, watching a B1 on a test cruise up and down Death Valley, with a 747 observation jet, to put the fear of Armageddon in you.

OT, but it's also cool to be buzzed by an F16, doing about Mach 2, 20 feet off the Panamint Valley saltpan and zeroed on your car, or have one clear your car by the same altitude when descending from Father Crowley Pt - moving so fast that you are looking at the top of the aircraft, down in the canyon, before you even hear it coming. I'd certainly hate to be in its cross hairs!

(airshows weekdays only; I guess they take the weekends off like most everyone else)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 10:15am PT
allen hynek has been dead for many years, healyje. if you want to look for current papal authority, try vallee and jacobs, both of whom were associated with him. this has been a dynamic and intensifying phenomenon.

ed has the best physics credentials on supertopo, but i find him disappointingly naive about the way our government, which i believe has been his longtime employer, operates. he also shows little familiarity with ufo material itself.

it was hynek, you will remember, who established the categories of "encounter", and they warrant some revision these days. you also have to remember that hynek, like sagan, had different points of view at different times in his career. such people are quite versatile for citation, but they lend little weight without a careful examination about why and when they changed.

you may not believe that anyone has actually ever been abducted, but there has been an avalanche of abduction "cases", people who have undergone strange experiences and truly believe abductions took place. this is something which is occuring worldwide, and the experiences are remarkably similar. many, many of these people have been shown not to be mentally ill by such careful researchers as mack and jacobs.

if you like to clobber people in an argument with someone else's science credentials, you might consider the case of kary mullis, who won the nobel prize for chemistry in 1993 for his work in the DNA field. he tells of being confronted one night by what appeared to be a glowing, talking raccoon outside his mendocino mountain cabin and coming to the next morning on a dirt road some distance away, a very typical abduction account. from the hynek center:

http://www.cufos.org/IUR_spring99_addendum.html
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 2, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
People can not track down this guy, Thierry Speth, a French video artist who has claimed to do it.

How mysterious.... http://www.facebook.com/people/Thierry-Speth/1298317807
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
i mentioned michio kaku, professor of physics at city university of new york, who recently entered the UFO debate. i hadn't realized it, but i have one of his books at home, hyperspace, published in 1994. it's a book which deals with all those far-out concepts--"parallel universes, time warps, the 10th dimension". good luck to laypeople like myself who try to wade through it, but it's worth a crack, and it's interesting that his theoretical interests have led him to UFO phenomena which are so suggestive of this area.

the illustrations are easier to understand:

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
i mentioned michio kaku, professor of physics at city university of new york, who recently entered the UFO debate.

UFOs and all things paranormal are a hot cable network content area right now, no doubt due to the cumulative effects of continuously lagging U.S. education stats. Kaku is a media hound of the first order with a fine-tuned sense of who and what will butter his bread. Another smart guy and because of that you can bet he'll tow the hypothetical inter-dimensional and wormhole line because there really are no other options that don't violate the constraints of basic physics which he's not likely to advocate under any circumstance.

And Nobel laureates are not typically sitting atop the bell curve of average behavior in their personal lives and I wouldn't expect them to, all kinds of eccentricities abound - so I'm not really going to weigh a talking-racoon-abductor too heavily. Many stories of abnormal experiences / behavior / 'miracles' of all stripes occur around the planet every year. People see Christ in toast on a regular basis, but I'm still not buying it.
WBraun

climber
Apr 2, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
All my extraterrestrial alien bros read this is forum at times.

I just beamed up to them to check out all these one dimensional mental speculator dudes here.

They said we'll show these mundane know it alls, by beaming them up and giving them a thorough anal probe .....
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
Werner: They said we'll show these mundane know it alls, by beaming them up and giving them a thorough anal probe .....

How about just landing in Golden Gate Park and offering free anal probes? I'm pretty sure it would spawn a new religion on the spot.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
a media hound of the first order with a fine-tuned sense of who and what will butter his bread

pretty good description of carl sagan there, healbro.

what you have to say about kaku, however, couldn't be further from the truth. taking UFOs seriously is the worst possible career move an academic or mainstream scientist could make. most people don't make such a move unless they feel compelled to do so in pursuit of truth.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
I've watched Kaku over the years and one of his skills is talking about the paranormal in an engaging fashion, but if you listen closely you'll note he never personally describes or commits to a personal belief in any of these topics. He's always extraordinarily careful in his verbiage, but does it in a way that still renders an enthusiastic and spirited delivery.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 2, 2012 - 11:47pm PT
not having watched him for years, i'll try to take your point. can you give some examples?

it's a little hard to accept your criticism when you yourself don't seem to brook these matters. are you frustrated that he won't commit himself to something you can crucify him with?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 12:16am PT
You'd just have to catch more of his shows and see for yourself. He's first and foremost a theoretical physicist and he's not going to depart from basic physics.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 3, 2012 - 01:01am PT

On the cover of Leslie's book on the latest edition . . .

"A treasure trove of insightful and eye-opening information."
    Michio Kaku, PhD.


PhD Michio kaku has plenty to say about UFOs/ET and the possibility that it is a real phenomenon.

He may not come out and say, "I believe," but he is darn near close to doing so. He has given glowing reviews of Leslie Kean's book, and has interviewed her on his show.





"Michio Kaku: UFOs Are Real - MSNBC Dylan Ratigan Show"
http://vimeo.com/14373966


Leslie Kean - MSNBC's Dylan Ratigan Show - 08-24-2010
http://vimeo.com/14405603
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 02:12am PT
Klimmer just posted a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about - you couldn't word it more carefully or in less committing verbiage than Kaku uses there. Ditto for the video where as committing as he gets is acknowledging that someone saw something that appears we can't explain. Again, he's very, very careful in his choices of words throughout.

You're barking up entirely the wrong tree if you think Kaku's going to commit to anything other than there are incidents witness by various means we lack the data to explain.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 09:35am PT
the thing is, healyje, the moment someone like kaku "commits" to whatever specific belief someone like you seems to want him to commit to, he knows he'll have a horde of people like you and all the other casual critics here calling for his resignation from teaching, followed by a different kind of commitment--to psychiatric care.

given that, kaku seems pretty damn smart to me. i can't think of a better endorsement than your description of him, "first and foremost a theoretical physicist and he's not going to depart from basic physics". what are you looking for?

you don't get into weird stuff unless something in your experience happens to bring it home to you. i seem to be involved in three such areas in ST discussion, and in each area it's because i've had something personal rope me into it. kean and kaku here are just offering something for you beginners. their point of view really belongs back in 1950, when ufos were being seen across the countryside and reported in the newspapers and no one worried that farmer jones might be a mental case because he called the sheriff about that durn thing that hovered over his barn.

if you want someone to use your crucifixion nails on, check out michael salla. a bona fide academic with a substantial career, out in left field now. the fellow is a bit gullible, but only a bit. he's in the middle of the exopolitics camp. the exopoliticoes long ago realized that ufos are real. they graduated from the kean/kaku kindergarten and then made the grave error of believing something. most of them believe in something different from each other. you don't find accord. or respectability. but salla, while believing the hoaxed-up anastasia-of-the-ringing-cedars nonsense from russia, has also investigated the reasons you and i have to buy goods made in china every time we go to a store. this has nothing to do with UFOs, but the field of international relations he began in, and i think he's putting his finger on it.

if you have any nails left over, save them for linda moulton howe, a longtime friend of tom cochrane, who has posted on this thread. as kaku is a staunch scientist, howe is a staunch journalist, but she often makes the mistake of believing too much. she has swallowed a couple of hoaxes and taken quite a bit of heat for them. i've been a journalist too. mistakes are painful, but if you don't get out into the dangerous territory where they can be made, you don't even begin to be a journalist.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 3, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
Well, if you've read anything I've posted you'll sort out pretty quickly Kaku is in it for the money and that time, distance, statistics, and common sense just don't favor yours, Kean's, Howe's, or anyone else's belief in us having ever been visited by ETs.

Don't kid yourself, Kaku, like myself, undoubtedly believes the galaxy and universe is positively teaming with intelligent life at all times, but that the odds of intra- and inter-galactic travel so utterly remote as to never rise above the realm of science fiction. The distances are way too great, the time we've been a species way too short, and the fact if there are any ETs out there capable of visiting then that means we're so common and run-of-the-mill that no one would ever bother visiting us let alone Earth becoming a veritable alien convention center and 'must do' destination resort.

And I've probably consumed more scifi / fantasy novels that the lot of you relative to an having an 'open mind'. But there is not a single UFO 'fact' that stands up to even cursory scrutiny or makes the slightest sense in any logical terms. Not one. The only thing you can consistently count on with UFOs and the whole paranormal bag is never once has there ever been a single incident that rises to the level of verification or even a common sense, logical understanding. Not once has an incident produced irrefutable evidence it even occurred - just an endless litany of heresay.

As Kaku says, trot out an alien, alien ship, alien DNA, alien device of verifiable origin into the full view of the public, media, and scientific community scrutiny that will still be around in an accessible public venue tomorrow, the next day, and the next day after that and you'll make him, and me, a believer. Otherwise it's just the same very tiring, but profitable crock of bullsh#t - no different than god, sasquatch, ghosts, nessie, tinker bell, or any other of the sh#t folks make up - it's that other thing humans do when the lights go out.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 3, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
So, Healy, you are saying that the Captain of the famous Japan Air occurrence
over Alaska in 86 (?) willingly sacrificed his career for some transitory
fame? Hmmmm, not consistant with the behavior of the many airline and
military pilots I know. OK, so he's the exception that proves the rule.
The trouble is he had a first officer who stood by him as did the controllers
at Anchorage Center. I know, everybody loves a good conspiracy plot.

rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
Unless the aliens that visit us are better designed/evolved than we are, their ship probably has a brig and at least one "drunk" alien in it who doesn't like that he signed up to protect his planet from his evil neighbors and then ended up getting shipped out to this place as a research (anal probe) assistant instead.

Dave
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 3, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Reilly. Is this what you were trying to pass on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Air_Lines_flight_1628_incident
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
Reilly, classic. Exactly what I'm talking about. The sighting started 43 minutes after sunset at that latitude. The crew clearly saw something, but couldn't clearly identify what they saw, but did mention 'rectangular arrays of nozzles or thrusters' and mentioned feeling heat. That would imply a liquid fuel or at the very least an incredibly inefficient power plant in whatever craft they saw. There was no definitive corroborating radar hits of note and when two other aircraft joined the JAL flight they also had nothing on their radars.

My father started in biplanes and retired a UAL 747 captain and has literally seen and heard it all over a career that spanned over forty years. He's seen a myriad of things he can't explain as have most experience commercial pilots including both my brothers who are Fedex pilots. None of the three give any creedence at all to this or similar reports beyond the likelyhood these guys came across a couple of early thrust vectoring prototypes. They've also all said sunset/twilight and sunrise are notorious times of day for such 'sightings'.

Again, the JAL pilots description of heat and light would represent such an inefficient, energy-squandering power plant as to defy logic as a form of propulsion employed by an 'advanced' society capable of intra- or inter-galactic time travel. It would be like us outfitting a state-of-the-art expedition and then having them wander around at night holding oil-soaked fire torches instead of modern headlamps - it makes no sense whatsoever.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 3, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
healy - why assume that ultra advanced tech people(aliens?) could not
have a sense of humor? Messing around with primitive societies has been done by human junior officers on this planet for no other reason than they thought
it'd be funny.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Which is exactly what probably happened in this case - young, hotshot human test pilots off the reservation.

But again, this stuff really comes down to common sense, rudimentary logic, and basic physics. And you really can't have it both ways. You can't claim in one sighting that ET craft were going at 3-4000 mph with no heat, no light, no sonic booms, and no atmospheric effects of any kind on one hand and then talk about another one that's spewing vast amounts of waste heat and light at a couple of hundred mph.

What - we're being visited by both advanced Jetsons AND po' Gilligans who can't figure out the basics of efficient energy transformation but still managed to make it here? Party on Wayne...
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
unless the vehicle is so advanced that it can be stealthy or emit circus
lights at the flip of a switch?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 3, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Of course - that's it! The 80's were just another decade out of many decades of alien pointlessness...
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 3, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
a while back Tony posted this:

i don't know how carl sagan managed to achieve the status of canonized saint of science. he was a nice television show host, interpreting a lot of science for a popular audience, but he certainly didn't give us great conceptual breakthroughs that would put him at the cutting edge of any field.

Turns out that this is a true statement because is has the "i don't know" lead in. But other than that is it an ignorant statement. Sagan was a serious and excellent scientist with many contributions in the field of atmospheres of solar system planets and the more massive moons.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:28am PT
i thought of sagan the way you do, mike, when he spoke at ucla shortly after making the movie deal for contact. i had the opportunity to question him personally about the novel and his future plans for writing in that vein. he was quite positive about it at the time. the novel is intelligent and exciting. it seemed a breath of fresh air, a far cry from the klunky sort of sci fi manufactured for mere entertainment. i admired the man as an educator more than anything. i certainly don't mean to disparage the yeoman work he did in planetary science.

however, my admiration ended right about then and there. i kept waiting for another novel. a career writing decent fiction is a delicate thing, easily scuttled by personal problems in a writer's life, or reduced to formula by the demands of fans and publishers which come with success. sagan looked like he could have been an extraordinary writer, emerging from a rich background in science, with a sudden gift for fiction. but his next, and last, book seemed to slam every door which contact had opened.

i didn't pay much attention to ufos before last summer, when i stumbled on material which gave great credence to the extraordinary event which occurred in los angeles in february, 1942. tangling with klimmer and others on this thread, i started to look into the whole, wild subject on my own. i had my own pet theory about ufos before that, working it into explanations of the paranormal.

i've found the evidence to be so compelling that i can't see how someone like sagan, in the field he was involved with, could have ignored it. i'm afraid it diminishes him even further in my eyes. he made the politically correct decision, sticking with a safe scientific orthodoxy, the same that seems to give healyje and craig such comfort. if only that society of "skeptics" would turn some of its skepticism on itself.

don't get me wrong, i don't consider sagan some sort of scientific midget. but he's no saint in the pursuit of truth. michael schermer, on the other hand--there's a midget.

let's go bouldering sometime, craig. i haven't been to horse flat since the big fire. the rocks up there are too big for us to throw at each other. :-D
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 04:35am PT
This is worth repearting. Posted on this a while ago . . .




Dr.CarlSagan Co-founder of SETI Knew That "UFOS were real"
May 11, 2010
http://www.ufo-blogger.com/2010/05/drcarl-sagan-co-founder-of-seti-knew.html



Dr.Carl Sagan Co-founder of SETI Knew That "UFOS were real"


Globally renowned astronomer, astrophysicist and designer of famous Pioneer 10 NASA Solar System Spacecraft Gold Plaque. He had also head the committee to select the contents for Voyager Golden Record.

He is so well respected in scientific community till this date and Nasa even named their 2008 'Study of Extraterrestrial Worlds scholarship' after Mr Sagan.

The pillar of modern space science Dr. Carl Sagan revealed to Dr. J. Allen Hynek that he believed UFOs were real. Sagan said to Hynek, that he knew UFOs were real but could not talk publicly about the matter and possibly risk the loss of academic funding.

Renowned astronomer and astrophysicist Dr. Carl Sagan revealed to Dr. J. Allen Hynek that he believed UFOs were real but avoided any public statements to prevent the loss of academic research funding. Dr. Allen J. Hynek confided his revelations about Dr Sagan to his former associate Paolo Harris who revealed this conversation recently

In an interview with research journalist and author Paola Leopizzi-Harris she said :

“My recollection is that Hynek said it was backstage of one of the many Johnny Carson Tonight shows Sagan did. He basically said (to Hynek) in 1984, ‘I know UFOs are real, but I would not risk my research (College) funding, as you do, to talk openly about them in public.’ ”

This startling revelation about Carl Sagan, one of this century’s most esteemed scientists and writers, has now been made public by Paola Leopizzi-Harris, a former associate of Dr. Allen J. Hynek who worked with him from 1980 to 1985.

Dr. J. Allen Hynek served as a civilian scientific consultant to the U.S. Air Force Project Blue Book from 1952 to 1969, initially taking a very critical and skeptical position on anything related to the reality of UFOs. In one of his own reports he stated:

"I had started out as an outright 'debunker,' taking great joy in cracking what seemed at first to be puzzling cases. I was the arch-enemy of those 'flying saucer groups and enthusiasts' who very dearly wanted UFOs to be interplanetary.” (Hynek, J. Allen. "The Hynek UFO Report". Dell Publishing Co. 1977)

After leaving Project Blue Book - the U.S. Air Force’s pseudo-investigatory public relations scheme on UFOs, Hynek later wrote:

"Now, however, documentation which puts the UFO-U.S. government controversy in quite a new light has become available. The (UFO) authors have made revealing use of documents released through the mechanism of the Freedom of Information Act and other data which have been made available to them… which show that the CIA and NSA protestations of innocence and lack of interest in UFOs are nothing short of prevarication."

Hynek went on to say: "For the government to continue to maintain that UFOs are nonexistent in the face of the documents already released and of other cogent evidence presented in this book is puerile and in a sense an insult to the American people." ("The UFO Cover-Up." Fireside books, Simon & Schuster 1984)

Hynek’s credentials are indeed impressive, having consulted on the Stephen Spielberg movie 'Close Encounters'. As well he presented a paper on UFOs at the UN in 1978. (All Experts)

Sagan’s link to UFOs and possibly to Dr. Hynek occurred in 1966 when Sagan was a member of the Ad Hoc Committee to Review Project Blue Book. This committee concluded that the U.S. Air Force's Project Blue Book had been lacking as a scientific study, and recommended a university-based project to give the UFO phenomenon closer scientific scrutiny.

In scientific circles much of Sagan’s notoriety came from debates conducted under the auspices of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS). In 1969 he challenged J. Allen Hynek on whether investigations of unidentified flying objects should be considered serious. Hynek argued 'yes' Sagan 'no' (NNDB)

Sagan was a prolific writer of some 20 books including 'Contact' – eventually made into a movie staring Jodie Foster. Sagan also hosted the brilliantly crafted and highly popular series COSMOS: A Personal Voyage. In Episode 12: “Encyclopedia Galactica”, Sagan explored UFOs and alien abductions while also including ‘refutations’ on UFOs.

In a statement at the 1968 Congressional Hearings before the House Committee on Science and Astronautics - U.S. House of Representatives Carl Sagan stated:

“As I understand what the committee would like from me, is a discussion of the likelihood of intelligent extraterrestrial life… clearly it is the hypothesis that unidentified objects are of extraterrestrial origin which the committee must have in mind. I'm delighted to tell about contemporary scientific thinking along these lines, but let me begin by saying that I do not think the evidence is at all persuasive, that UFO's are of intelligent extraterrestrial origin...”

Sagan’s confidential conversation with Dr. Hynek in 1984 appears to not only contradict this statement to the House Committee in 1968, Sagan’s new found view - that UFOs were real - clearly did not play any role in Sagan’s later highly successful public work.

This revelation by Paola Leopizzi-Harris appears to raise serious scientific discrepancies concerning Sagan’s public verses private beliefs about the nature of UFOs and Extraterrestrial life.

It appears, therefore that Carl Sagan presumably embarked upon his many television appearances, consulting on major television and Hollywood feature productions as well as his own academic writing while professing one public scientific point of view, yet maintaining a significantly contradictory personal belief – “I know UFOs are real…” as told to Dr. J. Allen Hynek in 1984 according to Paola Leopizzi-Harris.

In later years Sagan also heavily promoted SETI - the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, which discounts UFOs as an ET reality - advancing the theory that listening for signals from deep space may help locate intelligent ET civilizations.

It is unknown how long Sagan held this personal view or when and what changed his mind – future disclosures may reveal this. That Sagan presented much of his finest and most popular work outside the context of his personal belief that UFOs were real remains a salient incongruity for a man of Sagan’s stature, obvious integrity and celebratory contributions to humanity and science.

One can only speculate upon why, during the period between Sagan’s initial statement in 1968 and all during his now legendary writings and media productions, Sagan continued to espouse critical views on the reality of UFOs. Why did his views change so dramatically? Did funding issues alone motivate him not to come forward publicly to declare his change-of-mind?

This revelation made to Paola Leopizzi-Harris by a well-respected scientific figure like Dr. J. Allen Hynek alters if not the magnificent quality of Sagan’s work but re-constructs his considerable scientific influence on the mainstream scientific theories about the universe, the intelligent nature of UFOs and Extraterrestrial life.

How will mainstream science respond knowing now that a corner stone of modern science and one of its most revered members is now recognized as to have conceded - UFOs are real..

Down below is Dr.Carl Sagan famous speech "We Are Here,The Pale Blue Dot "


Read the comments to the article above at the source. Very interesting. More links to follow . . .
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 05:21am PT
A very, very good interesting talk by Richard Dolan . . .


Richard Dolan: UFOs and 9/11 (Understanding the Two Greatest Conspiracies of our Time)
http://vimeo.com/7902150





Oh. My. Gosh.

This is sure to give many here at ST a heart attack. Lol.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:03am PT
Science on this planet has been working for a paltry few thousand years, and modern humans aren't particularly an old species either.

If you look at what we are capable of doing today, it would have seemed patently impossible to nearly everyone a mere thousand years ago.

What could a society do, what could they have learned, how could they have evolved in a million years? 100 million?

We make so many assumptions that life has be made of meat like us, use radio waves to communicate, be carbon based, and so much more.

We're babies and all the restrictions based on our assumptions of limits (like the speed of Light) aren't necessarily all there is,

Not saying I know what's all out there, but quite sure the world is not flat and some of our assumptions about it are just modern day versions of flat world theory

Peace

Karl
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:10am PT
Strong agreement with Karl. Eyes wide open.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 4, 2012 - 11:23am PT
Karl,

I'll have to do some research but I think that there were some scientific discoveries or theories from around the same time as people thought that the earth was flat, that are still considered true and accurate today. being wrong about one thing does not automatically make one wrong about everything else.

In other words, just because people thought that the earth was flat doesn't mean that the speed of light is not a limit to how fast one can go.

Maybe the speed of light is the physical limit and bending space and time is the only way to travel great distances quickly.

In that case, it still makes me wonder why, with that technology to bend time and space or travel faster than light, mostly rednecks and cows get probed and the aliens can't keep themselves hidden from cameras that cannot focus very well.

Dave


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
ha--guess i missed that, klimmer. not very complimentary of sagan, is it?

i'll give the peanut gallery a head start here on its attack.

http://www.ufowatchdog.com/paola_harris.htm

and if graniteclimber is doing his usual lurking, here's an item, remarkably parallel to this alleged sagan revelation, from the newsletter he subscribes to:

http://www.illuminati-news.com/ufos-and-aliens/html/carol_rosin.htm



to address karl's and rector's comments, i think you fellas are still looking at "nuts and bolts" ufology, which assumes that space travel must take place with thrusting rockets at "newtonian" speeds. there are two considerations which would change that game. aliens and their ufos--"if they exist," as harry truman put it--have mastered gravity. perhaps it's a mastery of multidimensional reality. that 16th century woodcut i posted above implies flying saucers coming out through wormholes. you can bet on one thing. the engraver was not devising disinformation to lead us astray 400 years later.

the other aspect is karl's specialty, the mind juju. most abduction and contactee reports speak of telepathic communication. heck, our own neuroscientists seem on the verge of sticking wires through our scalps and doing the same. but get out of "wonder" mode. the ufo material implies all this and more. it implies an initial and continued presence to the human race. it implies that not only do they know all about us, but they may have been instrumental in bringing us to where we are now, and we may not be in control of our destiny, at least in the ways we have assumed to be. i think this point of view is compelling because of what can be found in archaeology and the history of mythology and religion.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
It could well be that the difference between angels and some aliens is a matter of culture and public relations

and it's funny then, that some people would have no trouble believing in angels but scoff at the potential of alien contact

Peace

karl
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 4, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
and it's funny then, that some people would have no trouble believing in angels but scoff at the potential of alien contact

And don't think that the "angels" aren't aware of that!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
the engraver was not devising disinformation to lead us astray 400 years later

i have to amend my own comment. mind you, i'm just reporting here. there is considerable talk about time travel in wild and woolly ufo-land. this discussion could probably do without that, but i think it's important to look at the whole kaboodle.

granite is keeping a close watch. he never posts his picture. his antennas might show. ;-)
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
In an interview with research journalist and author Paola Leopizzi-Harris she said :

“My recollection is that Hynek said it was backstage of one of the many Johnny Carson Tonight shows Sagan did. He basically said (to Hynek) in 1984, ‘I know UFOs are real, but I would not risk my research (College) funding, as you do, to talk openly about them in public.’ ”

ha, ha: I think I remember that I heard that someone heard that someone said (and I paraphrase)...

EDIT: Hearsay is hearsay klimmer. Not admissible in court and not the basis of scientific thought
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:08pm PT
Carl Jung recognized UFOs as "technological angels," the same old imaginary friends we've always projected, just upgraded to suit modern paradigms.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
Apr 4, 2012 - 10:02am PT


In an interview with research journalist and author Paola Leopizzi-Harris she said :

“My recollection is that Hynek said it was backstage of one of the many Johnny Carson Tonight shows Sagan did. He basically said (to Hynek) in 1984, ‘I know UFOs are real, but I would not risk my research (College) funding, as you do, to talk openly about them in public.’ ”


ha, ha: I think I remember that I heard that someone heard that someone said (and I paraphrase)...



Dr. Bolte,

You're being pretty disingenuous.


Sagan ---> Hynek ---> Harris


Sagan and Hynek were close colleagues to some degree and friends. Remember Hynek started out on Project Blue Book as an official "Debunker" and later couldn't continue with that false game. He had a conscience and couldn't lie anymore. He knows UFOs are a very real phenomenon along with the associated ETs.

Paola Harris was Dr. Hynek's close assistant and personal friend.




Should I trot out all that Werner Von Braun said regarding UFOs and ETs to colleagues, and assistants in NASA?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:34pm PT
Like this one?

"Just before he [von Braun] died, he gave an interview to Carol Rosin, in which he basically said that in order to sustain the military-industrial complex that first a false threat of terrorists would be created and used on the public and then asteroids and finally a false alien threat."
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Yes, Klimmer, please trot out all the hearsay you can.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
A total crock from start to finish. Utterly desperate leaps of supposition tearing to the right and to the left to find some way, any way, to escape basic physics - only to return again and again to hypothetical wormholes and inter-dimensional travel because there is simply no other way to cover the distances involved with intra- and inter-galactic travel. Desperate, I say, desperate in every respect.

And third-hand misrepresentation of what Sagan thought and said, another total crock. Again, It's pretty clear he thought the universe was teaming with intelligent life and that humans see phenomena fail definitive identification, but to make an all too convenient extrapolation out to a statement he believed there have been ET visits to Earth is just plain wrong and fraudulent in every respect. His own words are the definitive ones that matter, not the hearsay of third-party hacks with an ax to grind.

It is simply mind-boggling to me the absolute suspension of common sense and logic involved with the post-WWII hysteria around 'UFO's. The inescapable realities and basic common sense associated with the following simply aren't in your favor:

1) Intra- and Inter-galactic distances are so vast that such travel is by definition time-travel and, regardless of mastery of gravity or speed-of-light travel, impossible without the existence of hypothetical wormhole or inter-dimensional means of travel.

2) Hundreds if not thousands of sightings per year with no consistency of any kind whatsoever relative to size, speed, shape, propulsion, visual appearance, physical / sonic / thermodynamic behavior of craft.

3) If a single advance civilizations capable of such travel to Earth exists then planets like ours are so common there would no reason for to visit us at all, let alone a plethora of visits over the span of a galactic femtosecond.

4) Multiple advance civilizations capable of such travel would have to be involved to account for the the variation in the details of the past 65 years of reported 'sightings'.

5) Even if wormhole or inter-dimensional means of time-travel were possible, there still remains the issue of detection of our presence across vast tracts of time, distance and other dimensions to even know we exist.

6) We haven't been an intelligent species long enough relative to the speed of light to have attracted anyone's attention such that they could have traveled here by now even if they mounted an immediate response.

7) Not a single alien communication at any wavelength has ever been detected - aliens are apparently mute both at a distance and while winging around in our atmosphere.

8) Given we monitor for missile launches and track space debris down to the size of centimeters, embarking and disembarking our atmosphere to and from space undetected over an extended range and number of visits only to be commonly seen or lit up like a christmas tree in the visible spectrum we so conveniently use makes no sense whatsoever.

9) Not a single shred of definitive physical evidence of any kind exists to corroborate the claims of alien visitation to the Earth - not a single shred.

10) In the past 65 years of UFO hysteria, no alien has simply landed in a public venue or otherwise communicated in clear, unmistakable language what they have in mind and, more important, why they would even have bothered.

And the most damning of all...

11) In thousands of 'visitations' by an endless variety of alien species so advanced they can harness the energy necessary for the time travel needed to make the trip here, not once has an alien ever bothered to simply say, "Howdy. I'm Bob, from Bobaloo. How's it hanging?".

In short, to me the whole past 65 years of UFO hysteria is more an indicator of our deep narcissism, arrogance, sense of self-importance as a species.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
Lol.


We gottem all here today, the ST "official" debunkers:
(aka, "The Sky is not Blue, it's an optical illusion of visible light regardless of what everyone sees with your own human eyes. Trust us. Nothing is true unless we say it is.")

(Yes, and before you respond I already know how we see the sky is blue, the physics of Rayleigh scattering. Save it. I was making an obvious point.)



Jiminy Cricket these guys come in like clock work . . .


Graniteclimber

Monolith

Healyje


Cintune don't allow yourself to be included unless you want to be. I can add you to the list if you like.
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
Apr 4, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
There is no more appropriate thread for multiple facepalms.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Well, Klimmer, you are definitely the one blue-skying it around here. There are 11 points above you could simply rebut each one. Without being able to coherently and cogently rebut each of those 11 points - without religious or spiritual recourse - UFO folk just come off as desperate and delusional.

Like I said, this is no different from the other paranormal folks pushing ghosts, sasquatch, nessie, and other human fables we have so far failed to grow out of.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
Healyje,


Are you familiar with the current cutting edge ideas in physics? Could it be that these might be possible?

Wormholes

Time Travel

Multi-verses

multiple-dimensions




Even Hollywood can suggest these ideas in a possible and plausible scenario. Take the movie IJ4. The aliens were inter-dimensional. "They occupy the spaces between spaces." They could be here one moment and materialize, then they could vanish and de-materialize on cue to another dimension.


Could it be that the Heavenly Host that GOD created (and yes some went very rogue in a big bad way) have access to these ideas, these abilities, and these dimensions? I'm sure they do according to what The Good Book says.

Even the Good Book says GOD is light. At the speed of light time stands still. Einstein's Special Relativity says so. Perhaps GOD's Heavenly Host can tap into this as well. I'm pretty sure they know a heck of a lot more than we do and have access to technologies we can only dream of. However, they taught us much. They even taught us stuff we weren't supposed to know. Read The Book of Enoch.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
Are you even reading these posts or have you gone Go-B postbot on us...?
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
Just a note on the whole "other dimensions" schtick. As currently formulated, the only other dimensions that might exist are in no way useful to anything bigger than subatomic particles. They don't translate at all to the scale of things like spaceships and such, as fun as that might be.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
I'm responding and then I got to get errands and some work done even though I'm on Spring break . . .


Apr 4, 2012 - 10:51am PT

A total crock from start to finish. Utterly desperate leaps of supposition tearing to the right and to the left to find some way, any way, to escape basic physics - only to return again and again to hypothetical wormholes and inter-dimensional travel because there is simply no other way to cover the distances involved with intra- and inter-galactic travel. Desperate, I say, desperate in every respect.

No, not if what current ideas and theories within physics are actually true. These ideas and theories do hold merit. They can be predicted, and they do not break the laws of physics at our current understanding: wormholes, time-travel, multi-verses, and multi-dimensions etc.




And third-hand misrepresentation of what Sagan thought and said, another total crock. Again, It's pretty clear he thought the universe was teaming with intelligent life and that humans see phenomena fail definitive identification, but to make an all too convenient extrapolation out to a statement he believed there have been ET visits to Earth is just plain wrong and fraudulent in every respect. His own words are the definitive ones that matter, not the hearsay of third-party hacks with an ax to grind.

Why believe the testimony of anyone? Wow, courts of law wouldn't stand under that definition. Wow, everyone lies and makes stuff up. Can't trust anyone ever.

Get real.





It is simply mind-boggling to me the absolute suspension of common sense and logic involved with the post-WWII hysteria around 'UFO's. The inescapable realities and basic common sense associated with the following simply aren't in your favor:

1) Intra- and Inter-galactic distances are so vast that such travel is by definition time-travel and, regardless of mastery of gravity or speed-of-light travel, impossible without the existence of hypothetical wormhole or inter-dimensional means of travel.


So you're saying these ideas in physics now that can be predicted and to some degree modelled have no basis in reality? So you're saying it just isn't possible right?

Wow, how incredibly omnipotent of you.



2) Hundreds if not thousands of sightings per year with no consistency of any kind whatsoever relative to size, speed, shape, propulsion, visual appearance, physical / sonic / thermodynamic behavior of craft.

Bull Dung. Read Leslie Kean's book. The sightings are very consistent. The abilities of the crafts are far, far beyond our publicly demonstrated abilities and are intelligently controlled.

You just spout and make up crap.


3) If a single advance civilizations capable of such travel to Earth exists then planets like ours are so common there would no reason for to visit us at all, let alone a plethora of visits over the span of a galactic femtosecond.


I'll have to answer from a Christian point of view, having read the Bible and knowing what The Good Book says.

There are other civilizations that are extra-terrestrial (off-Earth). The abode of GOD, Heaven, where the Heavenly Hosts abide also when they aren't here on Earth or else where in the Universe doing GOD's will.

Keep in mind there are Heavenly Hosts that don't do GOD's will and have gone rogue, like Sarah Palin (lol).

The Good Book says we don't know the half of it. There is sooooo much that hasn't been revealed our heads would explode from the knowledge. I'm sure GOD has a great deal of stuff we are not privy to going on throughout the Universe. It would boggle our minds if we knew. He says so in The Good Book.


4) Multiple advance civilizations capable of such travel would have to be involved to account for the the variation in the details of the past 65 years of reported 'sightings'.

The Good Book says, Lucifer can appear as an Angel of light. He clearly isn't an Angel of light. He's Mr. Rogue himself. Apparently he and his Fallen Angels, and Demons they have the ability to appear as whatever they want too appear as to fool the masses. Apparently it works.

5) Even if wormhole or inter-dimensional means of time-travel were possible, there still remains the issue of detection of our presence across vast tracts of time, distance and other dimensions to even know we exist.


GOD and his Heavenly Hosts were here before the Universe was spoken into existence, The Big Bang. They witnessed the creation. They have know about us since day one. They were here also long before we ever showed up on the scene.


6) We haven't been an intelligent species long enough relative to the speed of light to have attracted anyone's attention such that they could have traveled here by now even if they mounted an immediate response.


They were already here before we got here. Read Genesis. Lucifer was in the Garden of Eden, and tempted Eve into eating the fruit of knowledge against GOD's wishes, and thereby knowing good and bad. The Heavenly Hosts were here before creation. They witnessed the Earth develop and change and watched physical organic life evolve from the beginning.

There is something about Earth that is very special. Earth has GOD's attention. Earth has all of the Heavenly Hosts attention. They are rooting for us to make it. But the rogue Lucifer and his 33% of the angels would like us to destroy ourselves. It's a spiritual warfare, and we are caught in the middle of it.


7) Not a single alien communication at any wavelength has ever been detected - aliens are apparently mute both at a distance and while winging around in our atmosphere.

Many "Holy" books abound that have been passed down to us. Some are Divine and GOD inspired, and some are anti-Christ and inspired by Lucifer and his fallen angels to fool mankind and to lead him astray.

There is plenty of contact with us in written form from ETs, extra-terrestrials, those who abode off Earth and have the ability to travel off Earth. The Bible says Lucifer and his dominion have "the power of the air." They can and do travel off Earth. even Lucifer still has access to Heaven to confront GOD, but his days are numbered.


8) Given we monitor for missile launches and track space debris down to the size of centimeters, embarking and disembarking our atmosphere to and from space undetected over an extended range and number of visits only to be commonly seen or lit up like a christmas tree in the visible spectrum we so conveniently use makes no sense whatsoever.


You are blowing smoke again. There is a long history of empirical data on RADAR etc. of UFOs. These are kept often from public eye. However, there has been much released under FOIA. Once again read Leslie Kean's book.

Visit the official websites that governments have created to release this information: UK, Canada, France, etc. etc. etc.

Disclosure has happened.


9) Not a single shred of definitive physical evidence of any kind exists to corroborate the claims of alien visitation to the Earth - not a single shred.

Where do you come-up with this crap? Complete bull-dung.

Read Leslie book. It's well known also that real physical evidence is quickly confiscated, and eye-wtinesses have been threatened or worse.


10) In the past 65 years of UFO hysteria, no alien has simply landed in a public venue or otherwise communicated in clear, unmistakable language what they have in mind and, more important, why they would even have bothered.

Not publicly, but on military bases with TPTB they have. Many serious cases have been documented and let leaked to the public.



And the most damning of all...

11) In thousands of 'visitations' by an endless variety of alien species so advanced they can harness the energy necessary for the time travel needed to make the trip here, not once has an alien ever bothered to simply say, "Howdy. I'm Bob, from Bobaloo. How's it hanging?".


It's coming. Even the Bible says so. Jesus has much to say on the endtimes. He says there will be signs and wonders in the sky, and people will be frightened. That these seemly miraculous displays could even fool the elect, those who are very close to GOD. Jesus says of the end times (the end of this dispensation of time, not the end of Earth or mankind) it will be "like the days of Noah." Q: What was it like during the days of Noah before all civilization was wiped clean? A: Fallen Angels were mating with Earthly women and taking as many as they wanted as wives, and having offspring. These offspring were Nephilim. They were half Fallen Angel and half fallen man. The worst of both. Unbelievably evil. The Earth was filled with corruption and mankind's DNA was terribly corrupted. Read The Book of Enoch.

What we are beginning to experience world-wide is The Days of Noah 2.0.


In short, to me the whole past 65 years of UFO hysteria is more an indicator of our deep narcissism, arrogance, sense of self-importance as a species.

GOD cares and loves mankind dearly. It's why he came down here and took our place on the cross. He loves us that much. He made us just a little lower than the Angels.

People are waking up to what's really happening. Pull your head out of the sand and open your eyes and pay attention. It could save your life and the live's of those you care about.

Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons/UFOs/ET have all been happening through-out our history, it's happening now, and more are coming. The Bible said this would happen. GOD told us to be ready.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Apr 4, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
Interesting list, Healyje.

But not very well thought out.

For example, what is the difference between #10, and the "most damning of all, #11?

10) In the past 65 years of UFO hysteria, no alien has simply landed in a public venue or otherwise communicated in clear, unmistakable language what they have in mind and, more important, why they would even have bothered.

And the most damning of all...

11) In thousands of 'visitations' by an endless variety of alien species so advanced they can harness the energy necessary for the time travel needed to make the trip here, not once has an alien ever bothered to simply say, "Howdy. I'm Bob, from Bobaloo. How's it hanging?".

Sounds to me like a mind made up and will to put down anything in a steam of consciousness to prove yourself right.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 4, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
It's well known also that real physical evidence is quickly confiscated, and eye-wtinesses have been threatened or worse.

It exists but we can't see it? That sounds like Santa Claus speak. He too will not deliver presents to your house if you sit up all night waiting to see him.

Be at least a little realistic. I can tell you that I have a puppy in my a$$ but then as soon as you want to see it, I take it out and eat it so that it is in my stomach where you are not allowed to go. Did I really have a puppy in my a$$? You would say yes because some other guy says he saw me take the puppy out and eat it.

I say I had no puppy in my a$$ and you call me a liar. Some other guy says that I did have a puppy in my a$$ and you call him honest. How the hell do you decide which one to believe and why does it always seem to be the less likely one? PUPPIES DON'T FIT IN MY ASS!

Dave
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 05:46pm PT
Clearly a repressed alien abduction memory.

That was not a puppy.

http://goo.gl/JM8ic
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
They knew about DNA back then???


Long before genetics and the discovery of DNA, did we not already know that a male and a female get together and after "hot-sex" or not so hot sex and the sharing of the males semen/sperm with the woman that something wonderful happened and a child with the traits of both parents was born? Heck, we were already well into the habit of animal husbandry to breed desirable traits.

We didn't have to know that DNA was involved to know that a progeny shares the traits of both parents. It was clearly evident.

So therefore Angels mating with Earthly woman, or Nephilim mating with humans, the outcome was not good. Yes, the bloodline of humans on Earth was vastly contaminated, with the exception of Noah and his family.

GOD used the Nation of Israel to cleanse the Earth of creatures and beings that were not meant to be after the Worldwide flood in addition, according to GOD's will, since there were Nephilim even after the Great Flood. Did rogue Angels come down and do it again? Or did they have the technology to escape off Earth during the flood? They had abilities far beyond humans. After all they were half Angel.

monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Why is it always a male angel that f*#ks an earthly female?

Could it happen the other way around Klimmer?
WBraun

climber
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
The modern materialists are stupid .......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
Apr 4, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

Why is it always a male angel that f*#ks an earthly female?

Could it happen the other way around Klimmer?


Read Genesis in the Bible. Read the Book of Enoch.

Apparently, Angels are very attracted to very pretty and beautiful Earthly women. Males not so much. They desired also to have children like we could, and marry like we can.

And yes, apparently Angels have the ability to morph from Angelic form to a physical human form. Many examples throughout the Bible that indicate this. They can look exactly like you and me, have sex, they can eat, and they can return back to their Angelic form.

It seems they can morph into what ever they want to, to some degree. The Fallen Angels are masters of disguise, just as their master Lucifer is.

Jesus plainly says there is no marriage in Heaven. Angels do not marry, even though there are male and female Angels.


There is a great book by Rev. Billy Graham on Angels. Really a great read that is very thoroughly researched and based solidly on The Bible.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
k-man:For example, what is the difference between #10, and the "most damning of all, #11?

#10 speaks to intent, #11 to common courtesy.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
this is where i part company with klimmer. i don't see much of the divine in the judeo-christian tradition. rather, i see a mess, something unnatural, ill-fitting to the human race, and often quite contradictory of itself. at the same time, it tends to be very controlling.

so, suppose this outside interference/influence comes not from a perfect divinity, as klimmer believes, but from one or more competing races of extraterrestrials, as many in the ufo field have come to suspect. suppose these entities are "advanced", at least technologically, or simply of a different "dimension" or more complex nature, but, all in all, not that different from what we encounter in ourselves or the many competing species on earth.

this becomes an organizing concept, not only for the long and apparently successful line of christian civilization, but for a number of other civilizations in history which had reportedly intimate associations with with various gods, as well as records, archaeological and otherwise, of technological items which are totally out of place in our modern conception of what those backward people were capable of.

a very upsetting idea, i must admit. i understand why so many of you fight it for all you're worth.

monolith: it did supposedly happen, at least once, the other way around:

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/UFOs/boas-abduction.htm
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
They can look exactly like you and me, have sex, they can eat, and they can return back to their Angelic form.


Why'd you have to give my secret away...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
Someone needs to give back his (questionable) science degree...
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
But Klimmer, why wouldn't a female angel be attracted to an earthly stud of a male?

I mean, come on, let's be realistic. Angel women have needs too. And if their angel partner cheats on an earthly women, don't you think fair is fair?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 08:47pm PT
Apr 4, 2012 - 04:44pm PT

Now it's Angels!!!
Wow, I thought Aliens were a Mind blower, and Could Not be Proven, since there is has never been a material, repeatable substantiation of an alien encounter ever documented on Earth.
But now we have to worry about Angels having relations with humans too!

Can you prove there are Angels??

If there are no angels, then your whole theory falls apart.



Dr. F,


Where have you been? Read the very first post of this thread.

I have apologetically defended the Christian point of view regarding what UFOs/ET are. It is a hypothesis, and a very good one. It explains so much. Also many prominent Christians who know their Bible and who have done the exhaustive research agree with it.

It's not the only UFO/ET hypothesis. However, too me its the strongest and most likely. It will be validated soon enough.

You do know that the reality of UFOs and ETs are evidences of GOD don't you? He already said what they were in The Holy Bible, and that this day would come when they would return in a very big way.


"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." Luke 17:26 (KJV) -- Jesus Christ said these words.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:50pm PT
or simply of a different "dimension" or more complex nature

Yeah, right. See above, a page back. It's that kind of pseudobabble that pretty much nails down the ultimate cluelessness of techno-tinged magical thinking. Santa Claus could be from another freaking dimension, too, and Bigfoot and the Easter Bunny, all just joyously blipping in and out of existence for the sheer f*#k of it. ;-)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
i hit klimmer pretty hard on this, craig, every time he gets onto the biblification of ET.

i wonder if monolith is volunteering for this duty. it's not supposed to be very pleasant.

for a small fee (usually well under $3,000), dr. stephen greer will take you out into the desert around joshua tree and teach you to signal ETs with a flashlight. with luck, they signal back. you'll have to take it from there, but greer is reportedly a bodybuilder who has posted his goods on guys-available websites.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
I just think Klimmer should fill in the details. He's clearly an expert on angel sex life. You know, make it a compelling story.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
Apr 4, 2012 - 05:43pm PT

But Klimmer, why wouldn't a female angel be attracted to an earthly stud of a male?

I mean, come on, let's be realistic. Angel women have needs too. And if their angel partner cheats on an earthly women, don't you think fair is fair?



I can't say. The Good Book and the Book of Enoch say the "Sons of GOD" married and mated with the "Daughters of Man."

Maybe they have a greater libido just like Earthly males do. Who knows?

Remember, there is no marriage in Heaven. Angels do not marry. Apparently they were jealous of what we had going on down here and wanted part of the action.


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 08:59pm PT
now you're getting somewhere, klimmer. they are jealous.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
You don't have to be married to have a partner, Klimmer. Or are you suggesting that angelic sex life is more of a free for all scene?
If angels have sexual needs, then the angel women are going to want some earth action as well right?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
I don't pay much attention to December 21st, 2012.

However, it's ripe to be used as a date for some evil master-mind group to do something unbelievably dastardly evil or make a massive tragedy happen. It could be another 9-11 event. That worries me.

The World will not end. It's not the end of time. Jesus won't return on that day. He said no man knows, not the Angels, not even he does, but GOD the Father only. He said he would return like a thief in the night. Returning on Dec. 21, 2012 wouldn't be that now would it?



Perhaps ET will make an incredible world-wide display such that even Dr. F will fall flat on his face with shear panic, scared out of his mind, and desperately praying for GOD's salvation. We can only hope.


;-))




Mono,

I can't tell you any more than what the Good Book and the Book of Enoch say regarding Angels. That's it.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Then it's not a believable story, Klimmer. So many questions.

The bible is just the creation of guys and their fantasies.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
i agree. craig's heart is pure. he has nothing to fear.

however you, klimmer, should worry. the book of enoch has been spurned as apocryphal by most christian and even jewish sects. your reasoning on this thread always goes "read the bible and the book of enoch". why not read zecharia sitchin too? or, for that matter, the vedas of krishna?

i find the maya date interesting, mostly for what i know about the maya, a remarkable civilization of abrupt demise. their long count, which ends on this notorious date, showed up as a strange obsession, overlying their regular calendric counts (i believe there are two of those). the long count has never really been explained.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
Tony,


Here you go. Great book. Exhaustive study. Comparing the Book of Enoch to the Bible, Old Testament and New Testament. Jesus qouted from the Book of Enoch. Paul the Apostle qouted from the book of Enoch. The early Christian church regarded the Book of Enoch as the Word of GOD.

It was purposefully supressed in the Church later once Christianity became the official faith of Rome. Who do you think hates the Church of GOD and will try to thwart it and suppress it at every turn? Lucifer. Do you think he wanted the truth regarding his fall and his fallen Angels to be known in full detail and how unbeleivably evil they really are? Nope.

There are missing books from the Bible that should be there. The Book of Enoch is one of them.

You get the full Book of Enoch plus great research regarding the authority of The Book of Enoch, and an exhaustive comparison to the Old and New Testament. You can skip her articles on "New Age" faith.


Fallen Angels and the Origins of Evil: Why Church Fathers Suppressed the Book of Enoch and Its Startling Revelations [Mass Market Paperback]
Elizabeth Clare Prophet (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Angels-Origins-Evil-Revelations/dp/0922729433/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3MUO55HWKZLQU&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G

Did rebel angels take on human bodies to fulfill their lust for the daughters of men? Did these fallen angels teach men to build weapons of war? That is the premise of the Book of Enoch, a text cherished by the Essenes, early Jews and Christians, but later condemned by both rabbis and church fathers. Elizabeth Clare Prophet examines the controversy surrounding this book and sheds new light on Enoch's forbidden mysteries. She demonstrates that Jesus and the apostles studied the book and tells why church fathers suppressed its teaching that angels could incarnate in human bodies. Contains all the Enoch texts, including the Book of Enoch, and biblical parallels to the Book of Enoch.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
...or simply of a different "dimension"...

Well, assuming they live on a planet in that other dimension / universe and that dimension or universe looks a lot like ours - and wouldn't it have to for them to be able to 'visit' and 'exist' in ours - then that would suggest there would be billions of planets with intelligent life in their own dimension or universe.

Why would they bother with all the hassle of leaving their own dimension with it's billions of planets to 'visit' ours. And how would they even know about little ole' us here in a different dimension or universe? What would possibly be their intent and motivation? And multiple civilizations, from one or more dimensions / universes visiting us? Why?

Again, the height of narcissism, self-importance, and arrogance.

[ P.S. I can't even respond to the presented amalgamation of UFOlogy and religion - to me either alone displays a lack of critical thinking, together they just come off as a sure sign of an inability to distinguish reality from irrational storytelling. And anyone lending credence to outright frauds like Prophets pretty much flushes any semblance of credibility. ]

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
I clearly said you can . . .


You can skip her articles on "New Age" faith.



The rest of the book is very good, complete, and spot on.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 4, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
ok Klimmer,

if you would


you are a grown man


question: Do you believe in "angels"?

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
Anyone who believes in GOD, Jesus Christ, his Holy word, The Bible in its entirety believes in Angels. They are his Heavenly Host. They are His Holy agents if you will.


Men of science and men of faith:

Copernicus believed the Bible.

Tycho Brahe/Johannes Kepler -- ditto.

Galileo -- ditto.

Newton -- ditto.

And many more.



What's your point?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Again, the height of narcissism, self-importance, and arrogance.

[ P.S. I can't even respond to the presented amalgamation of UFOlogy and religion - to me either alone displays a lack of critical thinking, together they just come off as a sure sign of an inability to distinguish reality from irrational storytelling. And anyone lending credence to outright frauds like Prophets pretty much flushes any semblance of credibility. ]


We will know soon enough. Certainly I believe in our lifetime. The stage is set for "last days" as they say.



(When I say "last days" I mean for Jesus's imminent return. But for that to happen lots of incredible frightening cosmic stuff is going to happen first. UFOs/ET is a big part of that.)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 4, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Doesn't it seem a bit weird, delusional and arrogant to think intelligent life on billions of planets would somehow turn on the events related to some ancient Earthling?

And that doesn't seem as just a tad narcissistic..?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 4, 2012 - 11:14pm PT
Some theorize that life on this planet is like an experiment set up by beings from other planets/dimensions.

Kinda like a zoo with research.

That would explain some of the screwed up aspects of this world and why other beings might be interested in our plight, which is, after all, the very brink of extinguishing ourselves.

They say our environment is exceeding dense and our perception of truth dimmed by the heaviness of being made of meat. The other "dimensions" we are talking about are much finer, like light, and much light is invisible to our eyes, the higher dimensional light is not detected by instruments.

Not saying that's the case, but it IS the case that we don't know squat for certain, for or against the established or alternative views

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
Apr 4, 2012 - 07:39pm PT

Doesn't it seem a bit weird, delusional and arrogant to think intelligent life on billions of planets would somehow turn on the events related to some ancient Earthling?

And that doesn't seem as just a tad narcissistic..?




Not if you know what GOD has said regarding man in The Holy Bible.

We are very special. We were made in his image. He cares about us. Earth is where we live now. It is our home planet. In many ways we are the center of attention. There is a cosmic war going on and we are caught in the middle of it all.



We were made in GOD's image:

GOD is. We are now.

Apparently GOD is light but with a form or shape like we are. We look like GOD in shape and form but we are much smaller.

GOD is all knowing, omnipotent. We think we are. Lol.

GOD knows the difference between Good and Evil but HE is only Good and Holy. We now know the difference between Good and Evil, but we struggle with it. This knowledge is overwhelming. Often we make the wrong choice and do evil.

GOD loves. We can love also and we do. Perhaps not enough though.

GOD cares for all creation and life. We can also care and show empathy for others and other life forms, flora and fauna.

GOD likes to rest and enjoy his creation. We like to rest and recreate. In fact we like to do that even more than working.

GOD can hate with a righteous hate. We can hate for petty purposes.

GOD can war against evil. We just seem only to want to war.

GOD creates and makes all. We like to create and make things.

GOD creates life. We would like to have the ability to create life.

GOD knows all and all deep mysteries. We like to think and we like challenges. We like to learn new stuff. We like to discover.

GOD is omnipresent. We like to travel, discover, and adventure.

The list can go on and on. We are very much made in the image of GOD. But we are incomplete. Only GOD can complete us and make us perfect.





Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:12am PT
oof--hard to keep up with this thread. talk about a hot time in the old town.

interesting material from healyje:

Why would they bother with all the hassle of leaving their own dimension with it's billions of planets to 'visit' ours.

this is a ufological first. no one has yet suggested what can be found in other dimensions. i suspect healyje may be a contactee or even (gasp) one of them.

klimmer's on a roll. i'm going to have to let him calm down.

karl's talkin' things i can discuss, such as the "farm" hypothesis. i know it sounds incredible, but it explains a lot. the winner here, just before they scuttle the ship, will be the best explanation.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 5, 2012 - 12:32am PT


karl's talkin' things i can discuss, such as the "farm" hypothesis. i know it sounds incredible, but it explains a lot. the winner here, just before they scuttle the ship, will be the best explanation.

Sometimes I wonder if you could feed Zoo animals some pills that would instantly evolve their brains to human level thinking, what sort of hypothesis they would come up with regarding their origins and the creation of their environment, given no human feedback or even human disinformation

PEace

Karl
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 5, 2012 - 01:03am PT
this is a ufological first. no one has yet suggested what can be found in other dimensions.

Well, why would creatures from another dimension / universe need space craft that, performance aside, are as normal a part of this dimension / universe as your car?

Common sense and basic logic would tell you 'life', 'material', and the cosmological constant are pretty much the same in their dimension / universe as ours is why. Otherwise the likelihood is they wouldn't perceive our dimension / universe at all and certainly wouldn't be able to visit it or survivably manifest themselves here in what represents our material three dimensions - i.e. they would likely be from an ancestral or descendant universe of our own if talking universes. And if that were the case their universe would have infinite exploratory opportunities of its own with no reason to come to ours. Dimensions are another thing altogether and personally I really don't buy it due to cross-dimension perception issues.


But if no one in the UFO community has bothered pondering what the physical presence of an ET in this universe would mean in the context of speculation of other dimensions / universes, then it just speaks to how little critical thinking is going on.

P.S. Karl: "human disinformation" - ppuuullleeeaaaassseeeee....
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 09:52am PT
that, karl, is precisely the farm hypothesis. in human evolution, we have myriad fossil hominids, as if much experimentation has gone on, while our close relatives, chimps and gorillas, seem to have stayed in their ho-hum jungle all the while. we assume that our extraordinary minds developed "from within", somehow "taking off" at a critical point to produce ancient and then modern cultures, but that isn't the only possibility. cultural evolution itself suggests similar interference, as with the extraordinary and aggressive invasions of indo-european tribes shortly before the historical record.

klim, a lot of holy sh#t scripture was thrown out by orthodoxy, which settled on its approved books so's it could administer a religion that halfway made sense. and that's about all there has ever been with religions, half sense.

what you're offering is what everyone else is offering, simply a lot of conflict. life is an ordeal. we need religion to tell us that? your divinity comes right out of the book of job, making side bets with the devil on how humans will handle their moral conflicts. check out the book of sigmund. god and the devil both get jealous when we have sex.

Well, why would creatures from another dimension / universe need space craft that, performance aside, are as normal a part of this dimension / universe as your car?

real good question, healyje, but why are you asking us? i know nothing of other dimensions. you sure seem to know a lot.

common sense told people the earth was flat for the longest time. i wonder how much common sense they use in advanced physics. i see poor ed has gone mum again.

nice picture there, but if one of those bulbs is our universe, we got a lot more galaxies inside. that artist sure knows how to coop up a galaxy.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:19am PT
We will know soon enough. Certainly I believe in our lifetime. The stage is set for "last days" as they say.

Klimmer, how do you think that you are different from all of the other people that have said that the end is near during the last 2000 years only to end up dead before the rest of us? Our lifetime? Probably not since a bunch of us that were alive when you wrote that are now dead. Certainly, your end will come in your lifetime.

Dave
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 10:42am PT
i've noticed how they keep moving that date back too, rector. but that's the christian tradition. the maya were different.

let's see, just stirring the flies off the sh#t here--

maybe the jewish/christian ETs from the 5th dimension keep changing their minds--give the earthlings another chance. pretty wussy tradition, really. the only human sacrifice they really followed through on was jesus, and he was probably a hybrid, only half human. little isaac got off the hook in the best manner of a hollywood ending.

but the maya--ye gods, there's machismo. tear out the living heart, kick the deadheads down the pyramid so's they bounce on each step. if you're selected for sacrifice, sometimes it's considered a great honor. you get your way with the local women for a year before the big day. death, death, death--as good as life, if not better. i'll bet this won the favor of the ETs from the 6th dimension and they showed up one day and said, "you guys are great. game over. c'mon up to the party."
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:24am PT
We need a drinking game. Everybody take a shot whenever someone says "another dimension" with no idea what they're talking about.
WBraun

climber
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:27am PT
with no idea what they're talking about.


Like you for instance .....
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:36am PT
Drink up.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:42am PT
who's buyin' the drinks and what are we drinking?
WBraun

climber
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:44am PT
You guys are already in a drunken stupor with this subject matter.

No need to even drink ......
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Apr 5, 2012 - 07:19am PT


We will know soon enough. Certainly I believe in our lifetime. The stage is set for "last days" as they say.

Klimmer, how do you think that you are different from all of the other people that have said that the end is near during the last 2000 years only to end up dead before the rest of us? Our lifetime? Probably not since a bunch of us that were alive when you wrote that are now dead. Certainly, your end will come in your lifetime.

Dave


Dave,

Yes, many people have said the same thing throughout history ever since Jesus Christ conquered death and ascended back to Heaven. Even the early church had to wrestle with it because people were going out and waiting for The End, and sitting on their hands on a hill (literally) and doing nothing else while waiting.

But prophecy has to be fulfilled and it is very sequential. Jesus said no-one knows the hour or day but GOD the Father only, but he didn't say we couldn't know the immanence of the big event of Christ's return. First A, then B, then C, then D etc. has to occur. Many of these events have now taken place and are fulfilled like no ther time in history. Jesus Christ told us what to watch for and to be ready when these things occur, and when they do "it is nigh even at the door."

We are not talking about the end of the World, or the Universe, we are talking about the end of this dispensation of time, after which Lucifer is contained (imprisoned) along with his fallen angels for a 1000 years and the Millenium begins. But it will get incredibly dark spiritually and morally here on Earth before that 1000 years of peace begins.

The events are lining-up. The one man of GOD who I think has nailed it like no other Christian man of GOD today is Tim McHyde, of "Escape All These Things." He has put it all together like no-one else has that I have ever studied. He truly is blessed with Biblical insight and a true man of GOD.

Many preach and teach that the Church will be raptured prior to all the bad stuff going down. This is called pre-tribulation. Then there are those who teach and preach that the Church will enter into and experience the first half of the tribulation, a time of "Lucifer's wrath." This is mid-tribulation. Then there are those who teach and preach that the Church will go through the tribulation, and experience "Lucifer's wrath" as well as "GOD's wrath." This is called post-tribulation.

All the Biblical evidence and prophecy points to mid-tribulation. The Church will experience "Lucifer's wrath" but not GOD's wrath like the rest of the World will experience. GOD does use bad experiences to slap and knock his beloved Children back into line spiritually speaking. Like a parent with a disobedient child. We do so because we love our children and want to see them do right, and be their best.

UFOs/ETs/Lucifer/The Beast/Fallen Angels/Nephilim/Demons are a big part of these last days events and the massive delusion to fall on mankind in these last days. This is part of "Lucifer's wrath." Tim McHyde nails it like no-one else I've ever read or studied.

I highly recommend people read his book and prepare and get right with GOD and get right spiritually. Dark times are ahead for the World before the light shines bright again. No matter what, we also have to keep fighting for what is right and just for mankind, and for the Earth that sustains us. We have work to do. We are not to just sit by and wait.

The Church of GOD and all true Christians are "the Salt of the Earth." Lucifer can not do his last evil works against mankind and against the Earth with the Church still present here on Earth and in the way. Once the Church leaves Earth, the Holy Ghost also is removed from Earth for a time and Lucifer and his minions have full reign to do evil at will. This is not going to be a good time. Want a clue as to what it will be like? Think living under Nazi Germany but only worse. By the way, The Nazi's, Hitler, where very much into the occult, Luciferian worship. Read the book: "The Nazis and the Occult -- The Dark Forces Unleashed by The Third Reich," by Paul Roland. I believe that was just practice for the end game. Pure evil.

Website with great articles of interest:
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/

His Book: "Know the Future: a Bible Prophecy Breakthrough"
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/volume-order.html

Tim McHyde's Blog:
http://timmchyde.com/

Great video lecture by Tim McHyde:
http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/two-keys-bible-prophecy.htm
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Apr 5, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
I highly recommend people read his book and prepare and get right with GOD and get right spiritually.

I actually appreciate it when a religious person fear for my eternal soul or just suggests that it's a good idea for me to take the "right" path. Thanks.

That said, don't worry about me. I'm an atheist so there is no God and I will stop existing once my physical form dies. My components will get reused in some other creatures and maybe end up as part of some building foundation. Maybe an echo of my brainwaves will reverberate through the universe as an incredibly small radio wave or something cool like that.

Dave

P.S. Dimension!

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
klimmer, i know you hate catholics, but i recommend you read dante. dante has some rude surprises waiting for people after they die. some think they're going to heaven, and they don't make it. others think they were headed for hell, but surprise, surprise--their hearts were pure and they hardly knew it.

most mountaineers, who carry heavy burdens over long distances, have accommodated an earthly purgatory and are well on their way to heaven.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
Apr 5, 2012 - 02:13pm PT

klimmer, i know you hate catholics, but i recommend you read dante. dante has some rude surprises waiting for people after they die. some think they're going to heaven, and they don't make it. others think they were headed for hell, but surprise, surprise--their hearts were pure and they hardly knew it.

most mountaineers, who carry heavy burdens over long distances, have accommodated an earthly purgatory and are well on their way to heaven.



Tony.

Lol. I do not hate Catholics. They are my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Why would you say that? Do I agree with all Catholic doctrine? No. Gee, even Catholics don't.

I'm sorry but the wafer and wine do not literally turn into Christ. C'mon, it was a symbolic remembrance. Jiminy Cricket.

Martin Luther and I would get along great.

I told you before my children go to Catholic school. It's good schooling as long as they follow state standards and the state curriculum. At least they get to hear and learn about GOD and Christ. Also they get Evolution. They can talk Theistic Evolution until the cows come home.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
Some of the most far out wacko stuff yet!!!
Aliens are related to lucifer???

It says that in the Bible???

You know the bible is a work of fiction, did they forget to send you that memo.




Oh ye of little faith (or non at all).

Yes, the Bible clearly describes what the last days will be like. Have you not paid attention?

When you see these things come to pass you'll remember what we talked about.

Remember, Lucifer and his fallen angel minions have the ability to appear as whatever they want to appear as. They were also given "power of the air." Do you not get the Christian perspective on UFOs/ET yet? They are imposters.

The UFO/ET phenomenon are not really who they say they are. Lucifer (The Father of Lies) and his fallen angels are 100% liars and decievers. They are masquerading around flying in UFOs and becoming beings we call ET. Just wait till they begin to tell mankind enmass that they created us. some abductees already tell us that is what indeed they were told. The lie has already begun. That the human species is an experiment, a zoo. That they are our real creators, and they want or require mankind to worship and acknowledge them as such. Don't buy it. It's a delusion.



PhD Michael Heiser explains this very well in a very interesting fictional book called, "The Facade." The story is fictional but it is based on the reality from what we know from the Bible and the modern day UFOs, ETs, black-ops, etc. phenomenon:


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 5, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
The delusion factor here is overwhelming, just barely staying this side of the sub-clinical. This is 'intelligent life'? This level of discourse is what someone would expend vast sums of resources and energy to visit? Christ, if I read this thread after using half the energy resources of the nearest three stars in order to get here I'd kill myself.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
At least you have allowed me to speak and warn you.

That's all I can do.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
but klimmer, i thought you were damning the pope a little while ago.

healyje lets slip a lot. did you catch that? he's a kardashev 2.074 alien.

yes craig, dante is brutal. i think klimmer supposes god to be much nicer than dante makes him out to be.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 5, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
why not read zecharia sitchin too? or, for that matter, the vedas of krishna?

You might want to reread The Brothers Karamozov. Skip the window dressing, and gather a gander at "The Grand Inquisitor;" then "Ivan's Dream."

I mean, exactly why might there be a hatchet in the firmament?

What happens if and when we discover life on Mars - some kind of microbe?

I guess we'd have to start looking for Nightlife on Mars!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 5, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
maybe if you'd only believe in hell, craig, but watch it. one belief leads to another.

c'mon, kabala, that's too thick a book to read. synopsize it a bit. put your cards on the table. take your lumps like everyone else.

i know the inquisitor chapter is about jesus getting the hot seat from the spanish inquisition. is this other-dimension stuff or time travel? remember, if you start describing another dimension and don't know what you're talking about, we all get a free round. healyje buys, he's got resources.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2012 - 11:01pm PT
What happens if and when we discover life on Mars - some kind of microbe?

I guess we'd have to start looking for Nightlife on Mars!



I think there was, and I think there is currently. All the evidence seems to be pointing that way. NASA is just taking its sweet ole time, I think, so much of the world can get used to the idea.

Something happened on Mars that is truly fascinating and incredible. Seems there is a Mars-Earth connection and I'm not just talking swapping meteoritic material. Even the Bible eludes to it. And it has a Luciferian and fallen angel connection.

Read David Flynn's book. Hard to get a copy now, but I have one.

Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars [Paperback]
David E. Flynn (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Cydonia-The-Secret-Chronicles-Mars/dp/0972134719/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1333678211&sr=1-1-catcorr

Article at his website:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/stones.html


Exploded 5th Planet? (The Bible suggests so. And the Bible also says why it was destroyed.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_planet_(hypothetical);

Astronomer Tom Van Flandern
http://metaresearch.org/

The Exploded Planet Hypothesis 2000
Tom Van Flandern, Meta Research
http://metaresearch.org/solar%20system/eph/eph2000.asp



WBraun

climber
Apr 5, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
Fact:

There's nightlife on every planet ......
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 12:06am PT
klim, ya gotta shop around more. you're only catching half of the excitement, and it comes from sticking to your christian/ufo societies.

barack obama spent a little time on the moon. they have an illuminati training camp up there for promising political puppets. laura eisenhower (the name she goes by), DDE's great-granddaughter, will tell you all about this. funny how things run in families.

the one you're really gonna love is the philadelphia experiment time traveller. talk about being born again.

other stuff too. i'm taking john lear's advice. stick with family values. we all reincarnate, and someday we may no longer be among the losers who haven't been chosen yet.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 6, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Klimmer,

Maybe an Exorcism is in order, could try at least.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 12:21am PT
Tony,

I know about some of that.

But I'm sticking to real science and the real Holy Bible. I'm sticking with Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, and Sir Isaac Newton to name a few.

Believe it or not, as time goes on science and the Bible validate one another.

Newton had it right (but no one knows the hour or the day, or the year for that matter, yet). His best guess was 2060 AD. I'd say he was incredibly insightful and way ahead of everyone else by a long shot once again. I don't think he knew about UFOs and ETs though. He did know about Bible code and searched for it! Again he was way beyond his time.

Absolute genius.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 12:27am PT
actually, the cutting-edge scientific rumormongers are telling us newton is pretty old hat and didn't understand gravity. einstein, alas, was a bit of an atheist. didn't understand gravity either.

newton himself was a nonchristian--he offered to resign his university appointment because the bible did not make sense to him and he couldn't accept it. check it out, klimmer. your little scientific pantheon is just a bunch of early researchers who were immersed in the societies of countries where everyone was christian. apostasy often would have meant off with their heads. frankly, i think your faith is pretty thin if you're basing it on a premise like that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 02:32am PT
Tony and Dr. F,

You guys do not know what you're talking about on so many levels regarding science and faith, and our founding fathers of modern science. Many books have been written on this precise topic.

Newton was very Christian. In fact most of his discovered writings had to do with GOD, faith, and his thoughts on The Trinity, search for Bible Code, his best guess for the last days 2060AD etc. His religious writings far out numbered any of his other writings on any other topic or subject by far.

What are you guys smoking?

Newton questioned if Jesus was equal with GOD. How could he be if he is the Son of GOD? That is a dilemma. But I do believe in The Trinity. He struggled with it. All Christians do.

He did not want to be a minister in the Church. I agree with him. I wouldn't want to either. It takes a special calling. He loved science, doing science, and studying the Bible and learning about the nature of GOD and the mysteries of GOD. He liked his time and pursuing his interests.


How many times do we have to go over this stuff? You guys have serious senior moments with memory?


NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE




We can go through each father of modern science I mentioned and prove you wrong.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 6, 2012 - 02:51am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 09:58am PT
HJ,


Too funny.

Wow, go figure a meaningless ad hominem attack and comeback.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 10:14am PT
Newton was also deeply into the occult and alchemy. He was considered the last of the magicians.

You into the occult and alchemy too Klimmer?

You have to consider the context of the time. Very unlikely he'd be into these things and religion now. Steven Hawking is more like the Newton of our time, and he's an atheist.

Pull yourself out of the middle ages Klimmer. Stop fantasizing about angel sex.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 10:24am PT
Newton was not into the occult.

Newton was into alchemy. It was forbidden, because they worried that it might lead to serious economic turn-over if someone actually did discover the "Philosopher's Stone" and how to make Gold, which we know isn't possible since its an element, unless you have access to a particle accelerator and then only a few atoms at a time can be made. Hey, no-one is getting rich that way. In fact you'll end up in the poor house.

Alchemy is credited with the start of rudimentary Chemistry. They hide their recipes in code and story form because alchemy was outlawed. Watch the program. Newton did indeed discover how to make "the Net" and hid the recipe in story form.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 10:30am PT
Newton's Occult Studies

By studying the bible, Newton predicted the world will end by 2060. You into that too?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 10:57am PT
2060? Almost seems optimistic at the rate we're going

Better hope aliens land with some space tech technology and anti-war wisdom before that

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 10:59am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton%27s_occult_studies

"Much of what are known as Isaac Newton's occult studies can largely be attributed to his study of alchemy."

The study of alchemy does not automatically mean the practitioner is also into the occult. No doubt some where.

I think it is clear that Newton was interested in alchemy from a science and chemistry point of view only, but adopted the practice of hiding recipes in code and story form since it was outlawed.




Yes, all Christians are interested in what is to be in the future and the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy. We are commanded to be and to watch and to be ready. Imagine, and Newton a Christian, was also very much interested in this too. Gee, imagine that.


This is Christian Eschatology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:27am PT
i recently read james gleick's biography of newton. somehow, you never get to like this brilliant loner who did not have many pleasant personal qualities. he was the first physicist with an autistic streak, a quality someone mentioned here.

newton's interests were wonderfully curious, given the time he lived in. alchemy was still taken seriously, and he wanted to get to a scientific bottom of it, if there was one. he went at the bible the same way. he immediately realized there was no real sense to it--at least the narrow "autistic" sense he would be comfortable with.

no, klimmer, he didn't openly "reject" christianity, but you're reading this the way you want to. the religion just didn't mean anything to him. everyone had to be a christain at that time.

newton's cambridge appointment required that he become, in effect, a church of england priest as part of the position, and he felt he could not honestly take orders because he just didn't believe. he offered to resign. it took the king of england to grant an exception. newton had become a major national asset by then.

you have to give newton credit for a rigorous honesty, but it translated to mercilessness in his position as master of the royal mint. he sent many counterfeitors to their death, spurning all pleas for mercy. who would jesus have executed? what a great spirit-of-christ guy newton was. he could also be terribly jealous of just about every other scientist alive. sometimes he was wrong about science too, but not very often, at least in his lifetime. scientists thrive on such competitiveness, and it can produce some real breakthroughs. jesus was not a scientist, klimmer, in spite of what mary baker eddy tells us.

newton appears to have died a virgin. he had terribly erotic dreams about women for a time, which he considered harrowingly sinful. he didn't get into his critical reading of the bible until later.

klimmer, you get just as defensive about your beliefs as your attackers here get about theirs. you get ad hominem too, but i'll give you credit for being a lot more polite.

jeez, 2060 now? i was hoping we'd get through all this later this year.

by the way, there's a new age travel agency offering a romantic cruise to chichén itzá in december. it's the place to be. local maya shamans are glorying in a newfound market for their services. i wish i was one, i'd have more work than i had guiding last year, and i'll bet the tips will be out of this world. funny thing about the cruise brochure--it shows the route of the boat sailing back to houston afterwards.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
Tony,

All I can say is that you are wrong about Newton and a whole lot more. I know you have turned your back on your faith and you are trying to justify that.

James Gleick's biography of Newton came out before the mass discovery of Newton's personal letters and what they truly revealed. That is why watching the NOVA program, "Newton's Dark Secrets" is so important. James Gleick is a tried and true Science apologist and interested in keeping the status quo.

I haven't read Gleick's biography but I'm sure he doesn't come to the same conclusion that NOVA: "Newton's Dark Secrets" did, and which reveals much for the first time and pretty thoroughly also.

Newton was a very devout Christian, reading and studying the Bible, praying, and a devout practitioner of chastity. He did have problems with accepting Christ being equal to GOD. Accepting a ministry at Trinity College or for the Church would be a problem for him as a result. He wasn't interested in the ministry. He was interested in knowing the truth of nature through science and the study of the Bible, GOD's word. Most Christians wrestle with that, The Trinity. But that is what the Good Book says.

Dang, with women, I can't even do what he did. He's way beyond me. Women have always been my downfall. Lol. But I was always loyal to my wife our entire marriage. Still am. But it gets lonely. I never cheated on her. Beautiful women are like Kryptonite. Maybe he knew that and that is why he willed himself away from the charms of women. He is a better man than me. Inspirational really. I kinda lean toward King David when it comes to women. I will fall on my face time and time again with women. It is my cross to bare (meant "bear").


Edit:

I admit it. I'm one of the worlds worst spellers. Thank goodness for browsers with spell check. Maybe my spelling is getting worse because I relie on it so much???
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Not just Gliek, Klimmer, Stephen Hawking writes the same thing.

http://globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/hawking/newton.html

Stop your historical romanticizing and fantasizing. The alchemists of the time thought alchemy was prohibited because the insiders already knew how to turn lead into gold. In a sense they were conspiracy theorists, just like you.

If Stephen Hawking was born in Newton's era, he'd probably have similar traits including religion. They are a product of their times. Don't keep dragging the past into the present because smart people were once associated with them.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 6, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
Gosh, Tony, I’d like to synopsis the Grand Inquisitor, and Ivan’s Dream. In fact, I almost tried to, until I realized that it would be impossible for me to summarize them in just a few short paragraphs, since everything written in these chapters is connected to everything else. I could nor more abstract nor delete a single line or word any more than I could add to them!

The Grand Inquisitor runs maybe 30 pages; Ivan’s Dream, which appears much later in the work perhaps just a score pages; it refers back to Grand Inquisitor. So, maybe find a copy of the book, and cut to the chase of these 2 chapters, which are probably the most penetrating of a work you don’t necessarily need read in its entirety, for the time being.

I also realized that my citation really has no bearing on the OP’s topic of ET spacecraft proper, but was directed towards the religious implications which have cropped up in the Tread.

The Church did more harm to science than any other cause
we lost 1700 years because of the church repressing knowledge and science

Interestinly, Grand Inquisor makes reference to the "Ritualist Canniblism" shown on HealyJ's artful Bell Curves.

What never ceases to amaze me is how a 19th century man could assimilate and articulate such a body of wisdom within the limits of his 60 year lifespan. “The Brothers,” BTW, was to be the first of three books intended to speak to the “Wheel of Life.” I also can’t help to wonder how the man managed to support himself during what must have taken at least a year to compose. He was known to gamble frequently, and to cover his debts by accepting “ruinous contracts which forced him to work at abnormal speed,” according to a biographical introduction to my Constance Garnett translation.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
Mono,

No you are wrong. So is SH. Who Newton really was is demonstrated very clearly through his personal notes and letters that have been newly discovered. It is a treasure trove. Yes, he hid this side of himself. Many people do.

The mainstream faith and religion of science community (it isn't, science is a tool) is having a hard time with it all, because they can't and don't want to accept the fact that Sir Isaac Newton their hero, was a devout Christian. "Oh, Heaven forbid! It can't be true. Dang, that puts all kinds of egg on our face now doesn't it?" Yes it does.

Here's a virtual napkin = [ ]. Wipe gently.

And no they didn't learn how to turn Lead (Pb) into Gold (Au). So your saying "They" did find The Philosopher's Stone? "They" had particle accelerators back in Newton's day? Dang. Way advanced. I did not know that.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
slow down, klimmer, i can't keep up. go back up there to your cross. you bear a cross. you bare your butt.

you're doing with newton what everyone has been doing with sagan and hynek all over this thread. yea, i can be guilty of it too. these were all real flesh-and-blood humans who lived within historical context and underwent changes of opinions in their lives. your citing newton as a christian is easy. it's also easy to cite him as an atheist.

i can't dig up my copy of gleick, but it seems to me he was quite familiar with the recently discovered letters.

kabala, you're obviously a dostoyevsky fan. i read crime and punishment. somehow, intense russian mysticism never grabbed me. that inquisitor chapter, however, seems to be so popular that it's published separately.

my buddhist-shinto wife and i were driving around yesterday and had to slow down driving past a high school where the kids were being let out in the middle of the day. i surmised that it was holy thursday, and some would be going to services, part of easter weekend. we then got into the whole business of holy communion and its obvious, and really rather disgusting, cannibalistic essence.

i don't mind saying that i think spirituality is important, and i don't think christianity, with some remarkable exceptions, begins to be a very spiritual religion.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
Yes, Klimmer, keep telling us that Stephen Hawking is wrong. He used to hold Newton's chair. He's pretty knowledgeable about Newton.

Newton was not the christian saint you proclaim him to be. Unless forgery is part of being a good christian.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 01:45pm PT
Mono,

I'm sorry but I can not keep arguing with "a wall of ignorance."










(But I keep getting sucked in don't I?)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
your citing newton as a christian is easy. it's also easy to cite him as an atheist.

Tony, no its not easy to say that. You can't ever say that. Unless someone lies regarding the truth of who he was. All his writings, beliefs, and what he spent his majority time writing about say otherwise.

He was a devout Christian and man of Faith. Period.


Watch the dang video. It goes into great detail on this without apology.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
Could be an interesting watch tonight (4-6-12) on Ancient Alien's new episode. See short preview:


http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=369609&ecid=EMC-AETN-101221&pa=HISem040612AncientAliensNA&tab=video#tabs
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
klimmer, i know you love sir isaac, but let's not forget why religion and science are part of this thread.

you seem to have divided extraterrestrials--again, if the buggers exist--into god's good-guy angels and satan's bad-guy devils, basing it on a narrow portion of ancient literature. the picture, if we care to look at it, is much bigger than that. if you look at the other parts of the picture, it puts your part into a very different perspective. you don't have the divine mandate. you have technologically superior beings who refuse to condescend and tell us the truth.

what i find most interesting about the ufo material is that, combined with modern science, it gives us lots to question in the claimed mandates of religion, based on miracles from the past. take a look at the nature of the miracles. moses parting the red sea? hmmm--gravitational force field? jesus coming back from the dead? well, he was only dead for a day and a half. we start approaching that in modern emergency rooms. if he had been brought back from a rotting carcass, that would have been a very different kind of miracle. miracle at fatima? sort of a dead ringer to the more recent, badly explained, light show over norway.

it goes a step further. you will read many a contactee account which leads to an interview with an ET-in-charge. inevitably, people want to know the score. often they ask about jesus. the answer always seems to be, "we'd like to tell you about that, but we can't."
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 6, 2012 - 03:34pm PT
Could be an interesting watch tonight (4-6-12) on Ancient Alien's new episode. See short preview:

You have got to be kidding me.....

Giorgio A. Tsoukalos is a Swiss-born Greek writer, television presenter, and proponent of the idea that ancient astronauts interacted with ancient humans. He is the publisher of the magazine Legendary Times, a publication with articles from Erich von Däniken (Chariots of the Gods?), David Hatcher Childress, Peter Fiebag, Robert Bauval, and Luc Bürgin, on the topic of ancient astronauts.

Tsoukalos has been the director of Erich von Däniken's Center for Ancient Astronaut Research for over 12 years, and has appeared on The Travel Channel, The History Channel, the Sci-Fi Channel, the National Geographic Channel, as well as Coast to Coast AM, and is a consulting producer of the television series Ancient Aliens.

Tsoukalos is a 1998 graduate of Ithaca College in Ithaca, New York, with a degree in sports information and communication.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Tony,

One last point and then I got to go fly my paraglider.

GOD's Holy Angels do not masquerade as Aliens ever.

GOD's Angels do GOD's will and they don't lie. They can appear as they do in the Bible and then again we can entertain GOD's Angels unaware of their true nature. They are here and get the job done and then they are gone. They do not come in spaceships. They don't have to. They do not abduct. They bring protection, peace, and good will to mankind only. Once again the Bible says this. They can be the homeless man, woman, or child that we just walked by and didn't pay attention to nor give them some badly needed money for food or a kind word. They can be a person that just so happens to seem to appear out of the blue when we have a broken down vehicle out in the middle of nowhere, that asks only to help and takes nothing in return except maybe a thank you. We won't know. We are unaware. They are here to do only GOD's will. They do no evil. We do not feel evil in their presence but awe and a sense of goodness. I would read Rev. Billy Graham's book on Angels. It is a thorough study of Angels throughout The Good Book. It clearly distinguished the Good Angels from the Bad. Angels of GOD do things a certain way, and stay within certain parameters according to GOD's will. And if we attempt to worship them, they quickly remind us not to. Worship GOD only.

Just the opposite for Lucifer and his minions masquerading around as ETs. Many abductees and those who have had close encounters of the 3rd kind, actual contact, have admitted to sensing deep fear and evil in the presence of Aliens/ET. These beings are not of GOD but of Lucifer. They left their first abode with GOD and now serve Lucifer. They are metaphorically dripping with evil.

You can make them go away by calling on the name of GOD (YHWY) and Jesus Christ (YESYUA). They flee at his name spoken by a believer or one who wants to believe and needs GOD's help. There is no other authority under Heaven by which they tremble, only GOD and Jesus Christ. They are not who they say they are. Resist them.


http://stopalienabduction.com/

http://alienresistance.org/

http://www.alienresistance.org/ce4.htm





Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
maybe i'm taking healyje's stance here. why couldn't one of those angels have said, "look, you're on a planet. it isn't a flat earth. here's what's going on. we've got good reasons for you to take our advice, and they are: ..."

there were some pretty bright light bulbs in the ancient world. it wouldn't have been that hard to follow.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
It's a mystery to me how someone's life could be filled with rock climbing, paragliding, teaching, and at least some aspects of legitimate science and yet still so utterly desperate and thirsty for any form of invented fantasy. It's as if some random pattern recognizer in the brain got epigenetically altered and is now addicted to utter bullsh#t.

Crop circles, cattle mutilations, and contrails - OH MY!!!
nature

climber
CO
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
the word 'kook' comes to mind, eh?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
It's as if some random pattern recognizer in the brain got epigenetically altered and is now addicted to utter bullsh#t.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&msg=1161845#msg1161845

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-people-believe-in-conspiracies
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
Ok I'm out of here, the wind is looking good . . . finally . . .

You would say the same thing about Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, and Newton and many other men of science and men of faith.

It's a mystery that you're not getting. But one day it will be very evident and you will. You will then have to choose sides and perhaps forced to do so. By the NWO.

That will be scary times people. But there is hope . . . look up to GOD.

Later.
nature

climber
CO
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:28pm PT
gc +1
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
If it weren't for the fact the internet is loaded to the gills with this sh#t I'd suspect it was a rare condition. After this thread, though, I'm beginning to think it's simply another cost and fallout of generational indoctrination of religious belief.

Children get indoctrinated into accepting beliefs in the fantasy of religion and then - for a certain percentage - once that behavior pattern is establish for accepting that level of bullshit as somehow a probable reality, the stops somehow come off and they then become ravenous for more stories / beliefs than mainstream religions could ever provide.

At that point, I suspect where most folks who drift through scifi / fantasy can distinguish it for what it is, but for this percentage the inculcated religious behavior ends up applied to, and blurring, absolutely everything they consume. Do that long enough, and the next thing you know there is an alien behind every telephone pole.

A comparative fMRI of a Klimmerati and your average Unitarian reading fringe material or wathcing 'Ancient Aliens' would probably be interesting affair.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
Your list is ancient Klimmer. Pretty much everyone back then was religious. They are products of their times. Drag yourself into the modern era.

List of atheists in science and technology:

Hannes Alfvén (1908–1995): Swedish electrical engineer and plasma physicist. He received the 1970 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on magnetohydrodynamics (MHD). He is best known for describing the class of MHD waves now known as Alfvén waves.[1][2][3]
Jim Al-Khalili (1962–): Iraqi-born British theoretical physicist, author and science communicator. He is professor of Theoretical Physics and Chair in the Public Engagement in Science at the University of Surrey.[4]
Philip W. Anderson (1923-): American physicist. He was one of the recipients of the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1977. Anderson has made contributions to the theories of localization, antiferromagnetism and high-temperature superconductivity.[5]
François Arago (1786–1853): French mathematician, physicist, astronomer and politician.[6]
Svante Arrhenius (1859–1927): Swedish physicist and chemist. He is considered to be one of the founders of physical chemistry. He received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1903.[7]
Peter Atkins (1940–): English chemist, Professor of chemistry at Lincoln College, Oxford in England.[8]
Julius Axelrod (1912–2004): American Nobel Prize winning biochemist, noted for his work on the release and reuptake of catecholamine neurotransmitters and major contributions to the understanding of the pineal gland and how it is regulated during the sleep-wake cycle.[9]
Sir Edward Battersby Bailey FRS (1881–1965): British geologist, director of the British Geological Survey.[10]
Sir Patrick Bateson FRS (1938–): English biologist and science writer, Emeritus Professor of ethology at Cambridge University and president of the Zoological Society of London.[11]
William Bateson (1861–1926): British geneticist, a Fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge, where he eventually became Master. He was the first person to use the term genetics to describe the study of heredity and biological inheritance, and the chief populariser of the ideas of Gregor Mendel following their rediscovery.[12]
George Wells Beadle (1903–1989): American geneticist. Along with Edward Lawrie Tatum, he won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1958 for discovering the role of genes in regulating biochemical events within cells.[13][14]
John Stewart Bell (1928–1990): Irish physicist. Best known for his discovery of Bell's theorem.[15]
Charles H. Bennett (1943–): American physicist, information theorist and IBM Fellow at IBM Research. He is best known for his work in quantum cryptography, quantum teleportation and is one of the founding fathers of modern quantum information theory.[16]
John Desmond Bernal (1901–1971): British biophysicist. Best known for pioneering X-ray crystallography in molecular biology.[17]
Paul Bert (1833–1886): French zoologist, physiologist and politician. Known for his research on oxygen toxicity.[18]
Claude Louis Berthollet (1748–1822): French chemist.[19]
Patrick Blackett OM, CH, FRS (1897–1974): Nobel Prize winning English experimental physicist known for his work on cloud chambers, cosmic rays, and paleomagnetism.[20]
Susan Blackmore (1951–): English psychologist and memeticist, best known for her book The Meme Machine.[21]
Niels Bohr (1885-1962): Danish physicist. Best known for his foundational contributions to understanding atomic structure and quantum mechanics, for which he received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1922.[22][23][24][25]
Sir Hermann Bondi KCB, FRS (1919–2005): Anglo-Austrian mathematician and cosmologist, best known for co-developing the steady-state theory of the universe and important contributions to the theory of general relativity.[26][27]
Paul D. Boyer (1918–): American biochemist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1997.[28]
Calvin Bridges (1889–1938): American geneticist, known especially for his work on fruit fly genetics.[29]
Sheldon Brown (1944–2008): Bicycle mechanic and technical authority on almost every aspect of bicycles.[30]
Ruth Mack Brunswick (1897–1946): American psychologist, a close confidant of and collaborator with Sigmund Freud.[31]
Robert Cailliau (1947–): Belgian informatics engineer and computer scientist who, together with Sir Tim Berners-Lee, developed the World Wide Web. [32]
John D. Carmack (1970–): American game programmer and the co-founder of id Software. Carmack was the lead programmer of the id computer games Commander Keen, Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, Quake, Rage and their sequels. [33]
Sean M. Carroll (1966–): American cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.[34]
James Chadwick (1891–1974): English physicist. He won the 1935 Nobel prize in physics for his discovery of the neutron.[35]
Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar (1910–1995): Indian American astrophysicist known for his theoretical work on the structure and evolution of stars. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1983.[36]
William Kingdon Clifford FRS (1845–1879): English mathematician and philosopher, co-introducer of geometric algebra, the first to suggest that gravitation might be a manifestation of an underlying geometry, and coiner of the expression "mind-stuff".[37]
Frank Close OBE (1945–): British particle physicist, Professor of Physics at the University of Oxford and a Fellow of Exeter College, Oxford, known for his lectures and writings making science intelligible to a wider audience, for which he was awarded the Institute of Physics's Kelvin Medal and Prize.[38]
John Horton Conway (1937–): British mathematician active in the theory of finite groups, knot theory, number theory, combinatorial game theory and coding theory. He is best known for the invention of the cellular automaton called the Game of Life.[39]
Brian Cox OBE (1968–): English particle physicist, Royal Society University Research Fellow, Professor at the University of Manchester. Best known as a presenter of a number of science programmes for the BBC. He also had some fame in the 1990s as the keyboard player for the pop band D:Ream.[40][41]
Jerry Coyne (1949–): American professor of biology, known for his books on evolution and commentary on the intelligent design debate.[42]
Francis Crick (1916–2004): English molecular biologist, physicist, and neuroscientist; noted for being one of the co-discoverers of the structure of the DNA molecule in 1953. He was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1962.[43][44][45][46][47][48][49]
Sir Howard Dalton FRS (1944–2008): British microbiologist, Chief Scientific Advisor to the UK's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs from March 2002 to September 2007.[50]
Richard Dawkins (1941–): British zoologist, biologist, creator of the concepts of the selfish gene and the meme; outspoken atheist and popularizer of science, author of The God Delusion and founder of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science.[51]
Augustus De Morgan (1806–1871): British mathematician and logician. He formulated De Morgan's laws and introduced the term mathematical induction, making its idea rigorous.[52][53][54]
Arnaud Denjoy (1884–1974): French mathematician, noted for his contributions to harmonic analysis and differential equations.[55]
David Deutsch (1953–): Israeli-British physicist at the University of Oxford. He pioneered the field of quantum computation by being the first person to formulate a description for a quantum Turing machine, as well as specifying an algorithm designed to run on a quantum computer.[56]
Jared Diamond (1937–): American scientist and author whose work draws from a variety of fields. He is best known for his award-winning popular science books The Third Chimpanzee, Guns, Germs, and Steel, and Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed.[57]
Paul Dirac (1902–1984): British theoretical physicist, one of the founders of quantum mechanics, predicted the existence of antimatter, and won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1933.[58][59]
Thomas Edison: American inventor, one of the best inventors of all time. During his career Edison patented more than 1,000 inventions, including the electric light, the phonograph, and the motion-picture camera.[60][61]
Paul Ehrenfest (1880–1933): Austrian-Dutch physicist. Made major contributions to the field of statistical mechanics and its relations with quantum mechanics. [62][63]
Albert Einstein (1879–1955): German-American scientist and discoverer of the Theory of Relativity. [64]
Albert Ellis (1913–2007): American psychologist who in 1955 developed Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy.[65]
Paul Erdős (1913–1996), Hungarian mathematician. He published more papers than any other mathematician in history, working with hundreds of collaborators. He worked on problems in combinatorics, graph theory, number theory, classical analysis, approximation theory, set theory, and probability theory.[66][67]
Hugh Everett III (1930–1982): American physicist who first proposed the many-worlds interpretation (MWI) of quantum physics, which he termed his "relative state" formulation.[68]
Sandra Faber (1944–): American University Professor of Astronomy and Astrophysics at the University of California, Santa Cruz, also working at the Lick Observatory, who headed the team that discovered 'The Great Attractor.[69]
Gustav Fechner (1801–1887): German experimental psychologist. An early pioneer in experimental psychology and founder of psychophysics.[70]
Leon Festinger (1919–1989): American social psychologist famous for his Theory of Cognitive Dissonance.[71]
Richard Feynman (1918–1988): American theoretical physicist, best known for his work in renormalizing Quantum electrodynamics (QED) and his path integral formulation of quantum mechanics . He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1965.[72][73]
James Franck (1882–1964): German physicist. Won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1925.[74]
Sigmund Freud (1856–1939): Father of psychoanalysis.[75]
Erich Fromm (1900–1980): renowned Jewish-German-American social psychologist, psychoanalyst, and humanistic philosopher, associated with the Frankfurt School of critical theory.[76]
Christer Fuglesang (1957–): Swedish astronaut and physicist.[77]
George Gamow (1904–1968): Russian-born theoretical physicist and cosmologist. An early advocate and developer of Lemaître's Big Bang theory. [78]
Joseph Louis Gay-Lussac (1772–1850): French chemist and physicist. He is known mostly for two laws related to gases.[79]
Vitaly Ginzburg (1916–2009): Russian theoretical physicist and astrophysicist who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2003. He was also awarded the Wolf Prize in Physics in 1994/95.[80]
Stephen Jay Gould (1941–2002): American paleontologist, evolutionary biologist, and historian of science, one of the most influential and widely read writers of popular science of his generation.[81]
Susan Greenfield, Baroness Greenfield, CBE (1950–): British scientist, writer and broadcaster, specialising in the physiology of the brain, who has worked to research and bring attention to Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.[82]
Alan Guth (1947–): American theoretical physicist and cosmologist. [83]
Jacques Hadamard (1865–1963): French mathematician. He made major contributions in number theory, complex function theory, differential geometry and partial differential equations.[84]
Jonathan Haidt (c.1964–): Associate professor of psychology at the University of Virginia, focusing on the psychological bases of morality across different cultures, and author of The Happiness Hypothesis.[85]
E. T. 'Teddy' Hall (1924–2001): English archaeological scientist, famous for exposing the Piltdown Man fraud and dating the Turin Shroud as a medieval fake.[86]
Sir James Hall (1761–1832): Scottish geologist and chemist, President of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and leading figure in the Scottish Enlightenment.[87]
Edmond Halley (1656-1742): English astronomer, geophysicist, mathematician, meteorologist and physicist. Best known for computing the orbit of the eponymous Halley's Comet. [88]
Beverly Halstead (1933–1991): British paleontologist and populariser of science.[89]
W. D. Hamilton (1936–2000): British evolutionary biologist, widely recognised as one of the greatest evolutionary theorists of the 20th century.[90]
G. H. Hardy (1877–1947): a prominent English mathematician, known for his achievements in number theory and mathematical analysis.[91][92]
Herbert A. Hauptman (1917–2011), American mathematician. Along with Jerome Karle, won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1985. [93]
Stephen Hawking (1942–): arguably the world's pre-eminent scientist advocates atheism in The Grand Design[94]
Peter Higgs (1929–): British theoretical physicist, recipient of the Dirac Medal and Prize, known for his prediction of the existence of a new particle, the Higgs boson, nicknamed the "God particle".[95]
Roald Hoffmann (1937–): American theoretical chemist who won the 1981 Nobel Prize in Chemistry.[96]
Lancelot Hogben (1895–1975): English experimental zoologist and medical statistician, now best known for his popularising books on science, mathematics and language.[97]
Nicholas Humphrey (1943–): British psychologist, working on consciousness and belief in the supernatural from a Darwinian perspective, and primatological research into Machiavellian intelligence theory.[98]
Sir Julian Huxley FRS (1887–1975): English evolutionary biologist, a leading figure in the mid-twentieth century evolutionary synthesis, Secretary of the Zoological Society of London (1935–1942), the first Director of UNESCO, and a founding member of the World Wildlife Fund.[99]
Frédéric Joliot-Curie (1900–1958): French physicist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1935.[100][101]
Irčne Joliot-Curie (1897–1956): French scientist. She is the daughter of Marie Curie and Pierre Curie. She along with her husband, Frédéric Joliot-Curie, was awarded the Nobel Prize for Chemistry in 1935.[102]
Steve Jones (1944–): British geneticist, Professor of genetics and head of the biology department at University College London, and television presenter and a prize-winning author on biology, especially evolution; one of the best known contemporary popular writers on evolution.[103][104]
Stuart Kauffman (1939-): American theoretical biologist and complex systems researcher concerning the origin of life on Earth. He is best known for arguing that the complexity of biological systems and organisms might result as much from self-organization and far-from-equilibrium dynamics as from Darwinian natural selection, as well as for applying models of Boolean networks to simplified genetic circuits.[105]
Lawrence Krauss (1954-): Professor of physics at Arizona State University and popularizer of science. Krauss speaks regularly at atheist conferences, like Beyond Belief and Atheist Alliance International.[106]
Harold Kroto (1939–): 1996 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry.[107]
Alfred Kinsey (1894–1956): American biologist, sexologist and professor of entomology and zoology.[108]
Ray Kurzweil (1948–): American author, scientist, inventor and futurist. He is the author of several books on health, artificial intelligence (AI), transhumanism, the technological singularity, and futurism.[109]
Joseph Louis Lagrange (1736–1813): mathematician and astronomer.[110]
Jérôme Lalande (1732–1807): French astronomer and writer.[111]
Lev Landau (1908-1968): Soviet physicist. He received the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physics for his development of a mathematical theory of superfluidity.[112][113]
Pierre-Simon Laplace (1749 –1827): French mathematician and astronomer whose work was pivotal to the development of mathematical astronomy and statistics, and anticipated the discovery of galaxies other than the Milky Way and the existence of black holes.[114][115][116]
Richard Leakey (1944–): Kenyan paleontologist, archaeologist and conservationist.[117]
Jean-Marie Lehn (1939–): French chemist. He received the 1987 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, together with Donald Cram and Charles Pedersen.[118]
Sir John Leslie (1766–1832): Scottish mathematician and physicist best remembered for his research into heat; he was the first person to artificially produce ice, and gave the first modern account of capillary action.[119]
Nikolai Lobachevsky (1792–1856): Russian mathematician. Known for his works on hyperbolic geometry.[120][121]
H. Christopher Longuet-Higgins FRS (1923–2004): English theoretical chemist and a cognitive scientist.[122]
Paul MacCready (1925–2007): American aeronautical engineer. He was the founder of AeroVironment and the designer of the human-powered aircraft that won the Kremer prize.[123]
Ernst Mach (1838-1916): Austrian physicist and philosopher. Known for his contributions to physics such as the Mach number and the study of shock waves. [124]
Andrey Markov (1856–1922): Russian mathematician. He is best known for his work on stochastic processes.[125]
Samarendra Maulik (1881–1950): Indian entomologist specialising in the Coleoptera, who worked at the British Museum (Natural History) and a Professor of Zoology at the University of Calcutta.[126]
John Maynard Smith (1920–2004): British evolutionary biologist and geneticist, instrumental in the application of game theory to evolution, and noted theorizer on the evolution of sex and signalling theory.[127]
Ernst Mayr (1904–2005): a renowned taxonomist, tropical explorer, ornithologist, historian of science, and naturalist. He was one of the 20th century's leading evolutionary biologists.[128]
John McCarthy (1927–2011): American computer scientist and cognitive scientist who received the Turing Award in 1971 for his major contributions to the field of Artificial Intelligence (AI). He was responsible for the coining of the term "Artificial Intelligence" in his 1955 proposal for the 1956 Dartmouth Conference and was the inventor of the Lisp programming language. [129]
Sir Peter Medawar (1915–1987): Nobel Prize-winning British scientist best known for his work on how the immune system rejects or accepts tissue transplants.[130]
Jeff Medkeff (1968–2008): American astronomer, prominent science writer and educator, and designer of robotic telescopes.[131]
Élie Metchnikoff (1845–1916): Russian biologist, zoologist and protozoologist. He is best known for his research into the immune system. Mechnikov received the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 1908, shared with Paul Ehrlich.[132]
Jonathan Miller CBE (1934–): British physician, actor, theatre and opera director, and television presenter. Wrote and presented the 2004 television series, Atheism: A Rough History of Disbelief, exploring the roots of his own atheism and investigating the history of atheism in the world.[133][134]
Marvin Minsky (1927–): American cognitive scientist and computer scientist in the field of artificial intelligence (AI) in MIT. [135]
Peter D. Mitchell (1920–1992): 1978-Nobel-laureate British biochemist. His mother was an atheist and he himself became an atheist at the age of 15.[136]
Gaspard Monge (1746–1818): French mathematician. Monge is the inventor of descriptive geometry.[137][138]
Jacques Monod (1910–76): French biologist who won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1965 for discoveries concerning genetic control of enzyme and virus synthesis.[139]
Thomas Hunt Morgan (1866–1945): American evolutionary biologist, geneticist and embryologist. He won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1933 for discoveries relating the role the chromosome plays in heredity.[140]
Desmond Morris (1928–): English zoologist and ethologist, famous for describing human behaviour from a zoological perspective in his books The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo.[141][142]
Fritz Müller (1821–1897): German biologist who emigrated to Brazil, where he studied the natural history of the Amazon rainforest and was an early advocate of evolutionary theory.[143]
Hermann Joseph Muller (1890–1967): American geneticist and educator, best known for his work on the physiological and genetic effects of radiation (X-ray mutagenesis). He won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1946.[144]
PZ Myers (1957–): American biology professor at the University of Minnesota and a blogger via his blog, Pharyngula.[145]
John Forbes Nash, Jr. (1928–): American mathematician whose works in game theory, differential geometry, and partial differential equations. He shared the 1994 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences with game theorists Reinhard Selten and John Harsanyi.[146]
Paul Nurse (1949–): 2001 Nobel Laureate in Physiology or Medicine.[147]
Mark Oliphant (1901–2000): Australian physicist and humanitarian. He played a fundamental role in the first experimental demonstration of nuclear fusion and also the development of the atomic bomb.[148]
J. Robert Oppenheimer (1904–1967): American theoretical physicist and professor of physics at the University of California, Berkeley. Along with Enrico Fermi, he is often called the "father of the atomic bomb" for his role in the Manhattan Project.[149][150]
Robert L. Park (born 1931): scientist, University of Maryland professor of physics, and author of Voodoo Science and Superstition.[151]
Linus Pauling (1901–1994): American chemist, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry (1954) and Peace (1962)[59][152]
John Allen Paulos (1945–): Professor of mathematics at Temple University in Philadelphia and writer, author of Irreligion: A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up (2007)[153]
Ivan Pavlov (1849–1936): Nobel Prize winning Russian physiologist, psychologist, and physician, widely known for first describing the phenomenon of classical conditioning.[154]
Sir Roger Penrose (1931–): English mathematical physicist and Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the Mathematical Institute, University of Oxford and Emeritus Fellow of Wadham College. He is renowned for his work in mathematical physics, in particular his contributions to general relativity and cosmology. He is also a recreational mathematician and philosopher[155] and refers to himself as an atheist.[156]
Francis Perrin (1901–1992): French physicist, co-establisher of the possibility of nuclear chain reactions and nuclear energy production.[157]
Max Perutz (1914–2002): Austrian-born British molecular biologist, who shared the 1962 Nobel Prize for Chemistry with John Kendrew, for their studies of the structures of hemoglobin and globular proteins.[158]
Massimo Pigliucci (1964–): Professor of Ecology and Evolution at the Stony Brook University who known as an outspoken critic of creationism and advocate of science education.[159]
Steven Pinker (1954–): Canadian-born American psychologist.[160]
Norman Pirie FRS (1907–1997): British biochemist and virologist co-discoverer in 1936 of viral crystallization, an important milestone in understanding DNA and RNA.[161]
Ronald Plasterk (1957–): Dutch prize-winning molecular geneticist and columnist, and Minister of Education, Culture and Science in the fourth Balkenende cabinet for the Labour Party.[162]
Derek J. de Solla Price (1922–1983): British-American historian of science.[163]
Frank P. Ramsey (1903–1930): British mathematician who also made significant contributions in philosophy and economics.[164]
Richard J. Roberts (1943–): British biochemist and molecular biologist. He won the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 1993 for the discovery of introns in eukaryotic DNA and the mechanism of gene-splicing.[165][166][167]
Steven Rose (1938–): Professor of Biology and Neurobiology at the Open University and University of London, and author of several popular science books.[168]
Marshall Rosenbluth (1927–2003) American physicist, nicknamed "the Pope of Plasma Physics". He created the Metropolis algorithm in statistical mechanics, derived the Rosenbluth formula in high-energy physics, and laid the foundations for instability theory in plasma physics.[169]
Oliver Sacks (1933–): United States-based British neurologist, who has written popular books about his patients, the most famous of which is Awakenings.[170]
Carl Sagan (1934–1996): American astronomer and astrochemist, a highly successful popularizer of astronomy, astrophysics, and other natural sciences, and pioneer of exobiology and promoter of the SETI. Although Sagan has been identified as an atheist according to some definitions,[171][172][173] he rejected the label, stating "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know."[171] He was an agnostic who,[174] while maintaining that the idea of a creator of the universe was difficult to disprove,[175] nevertheless disbelieved in God's existence, pending sufficient evidence.[176]
Andrei Sakharov (1921-1989): Soviet nuclear physicist, dissident and human rights activist. [177]
Robert Sapolsky (1957–): Professor of Biological Sciences and Professor of Neurology and Neurological Sciences at Stanford University.[178]
Marcus du Sautoy (1965–): mathematician and holder of the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science.[179]
Erwin Schrödinger (1887-1961): Austrian-Irish physicist and theoretical biologist. A pioneer of quantum mechanics and winner of the 1933 Nobel Prize for Physics.[180][181]
Amartya Kumar Sen (1933–): 1998 Nobel Laureate in Economics.[182][183][184][185]
Claude Shannon (1916–2001): American electrical engineer and mathematician, has been called "the father of information theory", and was the founder of practical digital circuit design theory.[186]
Edwin Shneidman (1918–2009): American suicidologist and thanatologist.[187]
Michael Smith (1932–2000): British-born Canadian biochemist and Nobel Laureate in Chemistry in 1993.[188]
Lee Smolin (1955–): American theoretical physicist, a researcher at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics, and an adjunct professor of physics at the University of Waterloo.[189]
Alan Sokal (1955–): American professor of mathematics at University College London and professor of physics at New York University. To the general public he is best known for his criticism of postmodernism, resulting in the Sokal affair in 1996.[190]
Richard Stallman (1953–): American software freedom activist, hacker, and software developer.[191]
Hugo Steinhaus (1887–1972): Polish mathematician and educator.[192]
Victor J. Stenger (1935–): American physicist, emeritus professor of Physics and Astronomy at the University of Hawaii and adjunct professor of Philosophy at the University of Colorado. Author of the book God: The Failed Hypothesis.[193]
Jack Suchet (1908–2001): South African born obstetrician, gynaecologist and venereologist, who carried out research on the use of penicillin in the treatment of venereal disease with Sir Alexander Fleming.[194]
Eleazar Sukenik (1889–1953): Israeli archaeologist and professor of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, undertaking excavations in Jerusalem, and recognising the importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls to Israel.[195]
Leonard Susskind (1940–): American theoretical physicist; a founding father of superstring theory and professor of theoretical physics at Stanford University.[196]
Raymond Tallis (1946–): Leading British gerontologist, philosopher, poet, novelist and cultural critic.[197]
Arthur Tansley (1871–1955): English botanist who was a pioneer in the science of ecology.[198]
Alfred Tarski (1901-1983): Polish logician and mathematician. A prolific author best known for his work on model theory, metamathematics, and algebraic logic. [199]
Gherman Titov (1935–2000): Soviet cosmonaut and the second human to orbit the Earth.[200]
Linus Torvalds (1969–): Finnish software engineer, creator of the Linux kernel.[201]
Alan Turing (1912–1954): English mathematician, logician, and cryptographer; often considered to be the father of modern computer science. The Turing Award, often recognized as the "Nobel Prize of computing", is named after him.[202][203]
Matthew Turner (died ca. 1789): chemist, surgeon, teacher and radical theologian, author of the first published work of avowed atheism in Britain (1782).[204][205]
J. Craig Venter (1946–): American biologist and entrepreneur, one of the first researchers to sequence the human genome, and in 2010 the first to create a cell with a synthetic genome.[206]
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James D. Watson (1928–): 1962-Nobel-laureate and co-discover of the structure of DNA.[208][209]
Joseph Weber (1919–2000): American physicist, who gave the earliest public lecture on the principles behind the laser and the maser, and developed the first gravitational wave detectors (Weber bars).[210]
Steven Weinberg (1933–): American theoretical physicist. He won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1979 for the unification of electromagnetism and the weak force into the electroweak force.[211][212][213]
David Sloan Wilson (1949–): American evolutionary biologist, son of Sloan Wilson, proponent of multilevel selection theory and author of several popular books on evolution.[214]
Lewis Wolpert CBE FRS FRSL (1929–): developmental biologist, author, and broadcaster.[215]
Steve Wozniak (1950–): co-founder of Apple Computer and inventor of the Apple I and Apple II.[216]
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Will Wright (1960–): American computer game designer and co-founder of the game development company Maxis.[218]
Victor Weisskopf (1908–2002): Austrian-American theoretical physicist, co-founder and board member of the Union of Concerned Scientists.[219]
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Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
that's a relatively short list, mono. please don't dump on here or klimmer will start in like go-B does.

what i'd like to see is a list of atheists in religion.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 6, 2012 - 06:37pm PT
You would say the same thing about Aristotle, Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, and Newton and many other men of science and men of faith.

All were men of a different time. You have the privilege to live in a era of remarkable access to information and knowledge, that was not available to the men you've mentioned. With the advancement of science, we have tools which reveal a very different truth. A truth that doesn't require a false idol, or invented creation myth.

Thankfully, there are fewer and fewer people like Klimmer.

what i'd like to see is a list of atheists in religion.

I would also like to see a list of atheists in politics. Currently there is a large, growing number of atheists in this country, yet no "out of the closet" atheist is congress? Statistically impossible.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 6, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
kabala, you're obviously a dostoyevsky fan. i read crime and punishment. somehow, intense russian mysticism never grabbed me. that inquisitor chapter, however, seems to be so popular that it's published separately.

Actually, Tony, I'm not a big fan of the man. C&P; Notes from Underground; The Eternal Husband; etc. - all failed to entertain, much less arouse me. I think they were written to make bank, that's all. Seriously doubt that Karamozov was a best seller in its day. Just the greatest work of 19th century literature, possibly.

You might want to take in Proust's "Swann's Way," which offers more entertainment per ounce of weight walue, should you find yourself tentbound during a week long storm during some climbing trip. No mysticism involved, but some very insightfull character analysis, well in advance of Reich. All of Proust was "vanity press," meaning he funded their publishing costs personally.

I wonder who paid for the "Mona Lisa?" And why?

The Brothers does not consist of mysticism, not, at least to my thinking. Of course, born with a name like "Kabala," I'm disapointed to report that I do not seem to have any mystic qualities at all - although, from my recently initiated and sporatic study, I've learned that the teachings of the Kabala (of which there are about 27 accepted variant spellings)where not passed down until the student was about 55 years in age. Elsewise was considered too young to possess enough Life experence from which to recognize the parallels from their own observations.

Serously OT here, the Kabala's main interest is in the 1st 3 words of Genesis: "In the beginning..." So, what was happining before "the beginning?" the teachings of the Kabala views the beginning as an infinate and vast inhalation - than an exhalation. Reminscent of the Big Bang, isn't it. Even as the heretics were set to the auto de fe by the hundreds each day. Oddly, Kabala flourished during the Inquisition, to later spread across Europe. By word of mouth.

Other than an architectural ability to create someone's future habitat, perhaps 10 years in the future, all I can fortell conisists of reasonable expectations of a personal future based on well known laws of probabilities. And this is not based upon tea leaves, just the simple induction of cause and effect, which comes with the territory. I think it's a normal human attribute; chose to ignore it, or act upon it, at your own peril. The House always wins.

Although(and this isn't going to sound any weirder than anyone else's experiences)I seem to get my share of prescience. Once, in college, I had a dream of climbing Matterhorn Pk, here in the Sierra. In this dream, the ascent was a dayclimb, from my future home nearby. Some years later - guess what? I try and suppress these experiences as much as I can, it's impossible and taboo to read the manusript of the future. I think I wasn't gazing into the crystal ball on that occasion, but instead, subconsciencly so drawn to a certain lifestyle such that I was already beginning the trajectory that eventually led me up here. I believe that we're all in control of our own destinies, and not in a fatalism. At least, I hope so, based on my nightmares.

I personally think that Dostoyevsky was a religous existentialist, well spoken at that, to be able to reach some kind of reconciliation. Definately not a nihilist. Personally, I'm marginally ambivalent.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 6, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Another perfect example of the inherent problems with religion:

Grim reenactment: Three Filipinos are nailed to crosses in a Good Friday crucifixion in Barangay Cutud, San Fernando. The event attracted a crowd of around 10,000 people


And if folks are willing to go to these extremes for a fable, however popular, you have to acknowledge the Klimmerati going out the other end are probably a dime-a-dozen as a quick survey of the internet suggests.

All and all an image that shows just how dangerous religion is and that a radical percentage of christians, or of any religion for that matter, could as easily be led to things like suicide bombings as radical muslims. The biggest danger with religion isn't the top of the bell curve, but the inherent fundamentalism on the lower slopes either side of it that are an inescapable attribute of religion.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 6, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
i think there's some wisdom in that 55-year requirement, kabala. psychotherapy certifiers should consider that. 'course, most of the certifiers themselves wouldn't qualify.

but, now that we know a bit about where you're coming from, what exactly do you have to say about the ET issue?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 6, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
I just wanted to add this:

I used to laugh at and make fun of Klimmer, as can be seen in many posts earlier in this thread. I did the same on other threads. I now regret it, and do not do that anymore.

There is a reason for this. I don't think he can help it.
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
All those scientists that monolith posted can't see God?

Then they all failed science.

They can all join Dr F, healyje and the rest in their guessing "Room" ......
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 6, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
GC

You make a good point, admit have done the same on this post as well as his others.

Klimmer you are spending all your energy and time on this,believing/searching in what you want to know because it is important to you that's ok. The thing I can not understand and I think I had mentioned this to you before on this post: Why? just to convince maybe one or two people to me is wasted energy or the wrong direction.

It seems to me you are afraid of what is coming next as for me I have already gone past my 9 lives, recovering from my 10th. The thing you learn from it is we live a short life here and the best way to live it is try a peaceful and enjoyment environment. Your posts do not show this.

So I will not make it worse by side remarks and will leave you alone just hope you find peace.
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
Oh boy, you have to win the Nobel prize to be smart according to the dog ^^^

That means you're as stupid as me according to your stupid logic.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 6, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
Science is inexorably coming to the conclusion that forms of One energy have become this whole existence, including us smarty pants humans. There is not a question of the existence of a supreme thing, but it's nature and how we relate to it.

And whether it's the ultimate primal energy becoming all things or a Supreme being, there's no doubt that our understanding of it is still flawed and full of limitations.

So it's good to remain open, recognizing the limitations of all views, and allowing for the tendency for even things based on reality to acquire human baggage and folly

Religionists have failed by giving the world divisions to precipitate the possibility of killing us all (instead of Love)

Science has failed by giving the world weapons of vaster killing power to precipitate the possibility of killing us all (instead of sustainable technology to live together)

We claim to be grown up but the level of world maturity is comparable to a 12-16 year old emotionally

Peace

Karl
WBraun

climber
Apr 6, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Geee wiz

The dog is trying to talk ..... ^^^^
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 6, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Karl: There is not a question of the existence of a supreme thing, but it's nature and how we relate to it.

Really? Not, unless you can definitively source the URNG. Otherwise you're right there is no question about supreme things - none exist.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 12:00am PT
klimmer, if you make it back from paragliding, check this little vid--only 4 minutes long. maybe you've seen it already.

i'm not interested in it so much for its contention--that jesus was an alien--because it really offers little discussion about that. what's interesting is that so many artists of the past seem to have depicted flying saucers--medival/renaissance artists, byzantine artists, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s035c-5HgYU
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 7, 2012 - 12:26am PT
Have you looked at your experience from a completely objective perspective?

Well, what do you think? Money says you are 35, thereabouts.

Actually, I am boosting the opportunity of this Thread to explain how and and why the Anasazi disappeared. Which, as a cross discipline, I came to understand 3 years before it was published on the front page of the NY Times.

Then republished in Jared Diamond's "Collapse." (U.C. Irvine) 2005.

I'd really like to pick this up later, if you wouldn't mind terribly.

This Thread has more to do with climbing than you can possibly know. And, I've only a brief time to share something it has taken me awhile to learn.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 01:30am PT
jared diamond impressed me--for awhile. seems like he got into hot water in the east indies, taking sides in something he was supposedly studying objectively. not sure how well his reputation recovered from that fiasco.

diamond's take on the maya demise is based mostly on david webster's impressive study, the fall of the ancient maya. in fact, i think webster inspired diamond to take the premise into other fields.

webster admits that it's not something we'll ever know for certain. he seems to think the maya simply overextended themselves and the culture of their classical period couldn't continue--too much extravagant war-making insupportable by a tenuous jungle agriculture. the maya never disappeared--they continued in various minor cities until the spanish conquest, and, yes, they are still with us today, even to the point of their shamans capitalizing on the long count finale.

for me, they had a strange energy and a strange religion. i've just found them fascinating. there are strong suggestions of ET contact in some of the artwork, including one which looks for all the world like an astronaut operating a jet-propelled space capsule of some sort, with his feet operating foot pedals. their pyramid building, as that of other central american cultures, is another representative of the apparent ambition and mystery of this phenomenon worldwide.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2012 - 04:53am PT
Apr 6, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
klimmer, if you make it back from paragliding, check this little vid--only 4 minutes long. maybe you've seen it already.

i'm not interested in it so much for its contention--that jesus was an alien--because it really offers little discussion about that. what's interesting is that so many artists of the past seem to have depicted flying saucers--medival/renaissance artists, byzantine artists, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s035c-5HgYU

Yes, there are many works of art that do so from that period of time.

Themes of Religion and Christian faith, and lo and behold in the background or other something completely UFOish is depicted.

I think they were seeing these things and it takes on an element of faith: What is it that we are seeing? Is it related to my faith? Is it a modern day miracle we are seeing? I'm gonna put it in my painting since it is unexplainable and mystical. Gee, what the heck is going on?

People have been seeing UFOs throughout history. Understandable. The deceiver has been here since the beginning of time. Remember the Heavenly Hosts witnessed creation. Lucifer before his fall and taking 33% of the Angels of Heaven with him, guarded the Seat of GOD. Then he got all full of himself and fell.

Bad times ever since. It affected all creation. He's been lying ever since. Deceit and lying is his nature. Remember, Lucifer and his minions have been given "power of the air" as The Good Book says. Gee, that is just where we see all these UFOs, here in our Earth's atmosphere and off Earth. No doubt that Lucifer and his minions have been showing up to every form of man's civilization perhaps in different disguises and in many forms (changing it up) throughout man-kinds history. I have no doubt about that. He is the deceiver. That is what he does. No wonder why we have all kinds of different visitations throughout history. Everyone has their own stories, legends, and myths to tell. Many perhaps actually describing a real visitation. He's cunning.

Remember he even tried to deceive Jesus Christ during his 40 days in the wilderness to worship him, now that Jesus was a man on Earth and more pron to human temptations. Didn't work. GOD as man here on Earth, Emmanuel, rebuked him and overcame. We can too.



Dang it. Missed Ancient Aliens tonight. Fell asleep. I'll catch it next time . . .

Watching HC's "The Real Face of Jesus?" on the Shroud of Turin, again. Great program. I have faith and there is a boat load of scientific empirical data now that the shroud is real. Incredible really what they can do and what the shroud reveals in 3D. Science and Religion intersect in the Shroud of Turin for sure. GOD allows amazing evidence for us to find to help our "Doubting Thomas" moments. GOD's amazing.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 7, 2012 - 08:56am PT
we're almost on the same page there, klim. almost. and you don't have to go extraterrestrial to address it. you can look in the book of job. your god is playing games with us. he is also a deceiver.

about half of alien abductees report something just about like the body of jesus passing through a linen shroud. they pass right through the walls and glass windows of their houses. to see how it's done, page up thread a bit and look at the picture i posted from michio kaku's hyperspace.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 7, 2012 - 09:57am PT
People have been seeing UFOs throughout history

I recently saw the face of Jesus in a cow turd.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2012 - 11:58am PT
Well, someone is right and someone is wrong.

The validity of GOD and GOD's word, The Holy Bible, will come to pass soon enough. Prophecy must be fulfilled. That is how you will know that GOD and his word speak the truth. But you have to know about the prophecies first.


Jesus said . . .
Matthew 5:17-18 (KJV)
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


Lucifer and his minions masquerading around as "New Age Religion" UFOs/ETs are a Last Days deception. It will all go down within the next 100 or less. That is a very conservative guess. I think it will be sooner actually. Time will tell.

I'm not looking forward to this "Beginning of Sorrows" as the Word of GOD calls it. It will be a difficult time here on Earth. But I trust and have faith in GOD. WE have to keep doing the right thing, and watching, and preparing our hearts spiritually while carrying on life and providing for our loved ones, and telling people The Good News. There is salvation.

A big part of me wishes we could just hit the FF button to the 1000 years of peace, The Millennium, and avoid all the bad stuff. But the word of GOD must to be fulfilled. Lucifer will do what he will do, and humanity will suffer. But GOD does put an end to it. We are definitely caught in the middle of a cosmic spiritual war.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 7, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Well, someone is right and someone is wrong.

From the mouth of babes...
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 7, 2012 - 08:13pm PT

but, now that we know a bit about where you're coming from, what exactly do you have to say about the ET issue?

I do believe I've already posted it here.

But, Tony, and the several few others, I thank you for actually reading my posts, which, superficially, would seem to have little in common with the sport of rockclimbing at all.

Except for a time when I was able to treat my family to a vacation on the Bonsai Pipeline. Noted what seemed to be a very short ride.

"Time stands still," to summarize the surfer.

Tom Carter once timed my lead of Ephemeral Clog Dance, GPA, at 20 minutes. Personally, it felt like a brief eternity.















Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 8, 2012 - 12:00am PT
this just in, klimmer. you're right after all:

http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-116.htm
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 8, 2012 - 12:10am PT
Ickes is an L. Ron Hubbard wannabe. He's a fount of first amendment privilege, and veritable privateer sailing the high seas of gullibility, desperation, personal boredom, and popular delusion. It's a toss-up as to who is more dangerous, the Ickian Klimmerati or religious fundamentalists.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 8, 2012 - 10:08am PT
healyje, read past the headline. it's more of a critique of icke than anything, by someone with a differing point of view, a point of view which approaches klimmer's in that it attributes ultimate evil to the character lucifer. luficer has a long tradition, whether you believe he/it (no one seems to think luficer might be a "she") exists or not.

you'll probably consider michael salla crazy if you finish reading his report, and i'm sure you consider icke and the late ron hubbard to be successful-but-crazy, and poor klimmer just plain crazy, but you probably don't consider everyone who believes in lucifer crazy, just mistaken. salla differs from klimmer in that klimmer thinks the only "answer" is faith in jesus. i suspect you're not a big jesus fan either, but you'll probably concede that not all jesus people are crazy, although klimmer and those filipino guys suffering through an hour on nonlethal crosses, certainly are, am i right? your world is crowded with crazy people.

i linked this article--just a sample of the wild land of ufology--because it portrays a point i'm trying to make: you can't find agreement. people arrive at different conclusions. does that mean you should close your mind to it all?

for the sake of argument, let's add another here. a lot of people on ST know jim bridwell, one of the greatest climbers ever. most have quite a bit of affection for him, but also consider him rather eccentric. but not crazy. jim subscribes to something called the book of urantia. if you're not familiar with it, it's worth a look. it "appeared" (it wasn't quite "written") during the last century rather interestingly, it deals with much of this material, including lucifer, it has produced a staunch following--talk to jim sometime and you'll see what i mean--but it hasn't produced something you could call a cult. you have to have some respect for the urantia folks--they're not out to make a lot of money off you, or even get you to join a church. it's remarkable to me that the people originally involved with it followed the same course allen hynek did later in the century. they began as skeptics, and rather intelligent ones, but then came over to the other side.

just for fun, all differing points of view:

1. icke
2. salla
3. klimmer
4. hubbard
5. urantia
6. non-ufo, "mainstream" jesus believers
7. healyje (disgusted)
8. me (not ready to draw conclusions)

i'm going to add three more:

9. mormons (got started in a manner similar to urantia)
10. seventh-day adventists (ditto)
11. jehovah's witnesses (ditto)

these last three have been around awhile and, like hubbard, have made a good buck on the business. they're more respectable than hubbard in the religion department, but they belong in this mix.

and to wrap it up (although there are many more):

12. roman catholics (been around the longest, subscribe to the lucifer material, big membership, and they seem to have quite a lot to say about ufology these days. klimmer's kids are studying with them even though klimmer thinks catholics are not the one true faith. catholics don't think klimmer is the one truth faith.)

i don't think most of these people are crazy, healyje. i'm not about to call you crazy either, but you need a little imagination to deal with this subject. if you're appalled by a little gore in a religious ritual, you haven't seen much of the world.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 8, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
It's because you are emotionally invested in it being true, and it takes alot of courage and honesty to say to yourself that You are wrong, and you will have to change your most fundamental beliefs to be in Harmony with Reality.

Don't worry, Dr. F. I have a bad habit of preaching to the choir.

Say, I went out and took some photos of your proposed Milnir Ck line in the Whites, only to discover that the quality of the photos were so bad that it would not benefit you for me to spend a week to upload them on my dial-up.

It looks like a fun ridge run. As predicted, the steeps are the bottom 1,000' or so, but there are mining tracks there. Your biggest challenge, I think, comes about 2/3rds down. It's forested, and with trees comes blow down logs and what have you. If it becomes necessary to portage small segments, you will still get out in a day, top to bottom.

As Burk put it: Have Fun, or Get Hurt Bad!**
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 8, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
I've spent more than my share of time across SE Asia to know the tribal roots of the gore, but the rest? Self and wide-spread group delusion is a common human experience that those who seek power have capitalized on since before we took to caves. That we still imbibe in such nonsense today tells you how enduring a trait it is an how little we evolved since the days of living in caves.
WBraun

climber
Apr 8, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
Self and wide-spread delusion is your trait, so don't try and project that on everything outside of you.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 8, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Again, from the mouth of babes...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 09:45am PT
so, do you think jesus is part of that caveman heritage? an obvious ritual sacrifice victim with accompanying cannibalism, pleasantly referred to as the most holy eucharist. it's the myth at the heart of the rise of western "civilization". or did you spend a happy easter hunting for colored eggs?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 9, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
No, I think jesus just ran afoul of the empire's internal security apparatus which had a fairly fresh institutional memory of the third servile war and attempted to convey its displeasure with his activities as graphically as possible in the common manner of the day. Tribal / ceremonial / ritual hysteria involving harm to self is another matter altogether in my mind.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
a good description of the circumstances of jesus's death, on the face of it, but totally oblivious of the great religious movement which followed.
nature

climber
CO
Apr 9, 2012 - 04:33pm PT
kookoobananas
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 9, 2012 - 04:43pm PT
It took quite some time to develop from just another mystical cult to a "great religious movement". Had it happened faster the Empire would likely have mounted a more robust and officially declared persecution. As it was there were mainly persecutions based on the personal biases of local administrators and a rather idiosyncratic Nero. Otherwise christians appear to have been lumped in with, and administratively largely ignored, for far too long and at the cost of the old empire.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Apr 9, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
All true, not to mention that in order to become a great religious movement it shamelessly pilfered all sorts of symbolism and dogma from preexisting mystical cults. It predated postmodernism that way, take a little bit here, a little bit there, and voila, something ostensibly new. When you break it down, there was nothing new about any of it, though, just a mishmash lumped together under the sway of a single deity instead of many. And then even that got all muddled as time went on.


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
aw--i'll bet you guys still believe in santa claus. without jesus, he would only be father paganmas.


dirtbag

climber
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
What proof exists that there even was a Jesus?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
there is a minority opinion among serious scholars, dirtbag, that jesus did not exist. some suggest that jesus was a fabrication of roman emperors--vespasian and his successors--as a means for consolidating their empire. this was a little after nero and the wave of supposed christian persecution. at the time of constantine, shortly after the year 300, christianity became the official religion of the roman empire. the "bible"--the approved books--began at that time, and the unapproved books were thrown out.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 9, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
Yeah Tony, the Bible has a very curious history. I sometimes say, jokingly, that the Bible needs an editor but that is exactly what happened over the ages: and the editor was not God, but people, who did it for various reasons. As you know though, many people believe the Bible is the word the word of God and should unquestioningly be taken at face value as the absolute truth: go figure (or go-b).

Anyway, as far as I know, no contemporary accounts of Jesus' existence has been found.

Horus is probably the reason for the season.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2012 - 01:04am PT
Apr 9, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
What proof exists that there even was a Jesus?

If you truly want to know the overwhelming evidence and you really look into it, and not half-heartily, there are plenty of evidences leading to conclusive proof. It's overwhelming. It all points to Jesus being who he said he was: the Son of GOD, The Messiah.


Great resources for a true seeker:

Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Volume 1: Historical Evidences for the Christian Faith (Evidence That Demands a Verdict) [Bargain Price] [Paperback]
Josh McDowell (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-That-Demands-Verdict-Volume/dp/B000H2MQLC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2UIYOFTDF78R&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


The Lee Strobel Film Collection
Rated: NR | Format: DVD
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
The Case for a Creator
http://www.amazon.com/The-Lee-Strobel-Film-Collection/dp/B002C7ELU4/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=IGMWHUP8L1TE8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


The Star of Bethlehem (2009)
Frederick A. Larson (Actor), Stephen Vidano (Director) | Rated: NR | Format: DVD
http://www.amazon.com/The-Star-Bethlehem-Frederick-Larson/dp/B002RBHDFK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1BPXE6ZL0L97W&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G


The Real Face of Jesus? (History Channel)
Format: DVD
http://www.amazon.com/Real-Face-Jesus-History-Channel/dp/B003EYVLHK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=ITIU5A2ZISZFE&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 01:37am PT
the lack of contemporary accounts are a big part of the debate. josephus, a strange figure, seems to be the only one who had anything to say, and that has led some to suspect roman fabrication.

we didn't have newspapers back then. the gospels all came quite a bit after the life of jesus. paul's epistles came before the gospels, and they were written by paul, and some think christianity is mostly paul's invention. paul was a tax collector--another figure with roman loyalties.

i personally think jesus probably existed. there is such an interesting diversity in the non-approved material, known as apocrypha or the gnostic gospels. the gospel of thomas--long suppressed by the western churches--may have been the prevalent version of early christianity, a much more loving/hippie-type philosophy. the gospel of john--not written by john the apostle, by the way--may have been a deliberate polemic to stamp out the gospel of thomas.

dirtbag's comment is pretty much the same made by bart ehrman, a bible scholar who started as a conservative christian out to do god's good work by becoming a real expert on ancient scripture. he found that it has all been so corrupted, edited and spin-doctored that he actually lost faith, becoming, by his own description, a "happy agnostic". just couldn't see the hand of god in this literary mess. according to ehrman, the texts used for the king james bible, despite its admirable poetic qualities, were probably the furthest from the original versions.

for me, however, the whole kaboodle takes on great interest when you consider the possibility of extra-human entities--i won't even call them extra-terrestrial. i've been reading some of vallee's essays lately arguing against the extraterrestrial hypothesis. rather, we're looking at a continuing and increasing presence, one which goes back quite a ways in history. my problem with klimmer's inflexible christian interpretation is that he portrays a rather ridiculous god--one with nothing better to do than allow tricks to be played on the human race to test our loyalty.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Apr 10, 2012 - 02:45am PT
Dr F- Well, I live right were my avatar says. Google Earth Bishop, then head up HWY 169 to the Buttermilks. Nearby is a small subdivision of about 40 homes or so.

Of course it's an adventure I'd never forget...I've only done several lines about 6 times. I think I was about 53 the last time, if that's any consolation.

The tree'd hogsback looks interesting. But, based on experience, I think you'll be doing more than dabbing. Best deal would be to show up a day or 2 early, with some powerful binos. I wish I could email you my photos, but on the dial up which contains my digicams' software, it'd take a week (I got carried away)

If this would be your 1st crack at the Whites, I'd really advocate you start on the Black/Redding Cyn linkup I described. Things get rocky further north - this more southerly ride is silky shale.
Da~Cat

Trad climber
yo' alley
Apr 10, 2012 - 03:02am PT
"paul was a tax collector--another figure with roman loyalties"

WRONG!!

Paul was a Pharisee prior to becoming an Apostle!

And he had zero "roman loyalties"!!

As a matter of fact, the Romans put him on trial, imprisoned and subsequently executed him(beheaded him).
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 10, 2012 - 09:00am PT
haha--don't you love the on-topic discussion trying to take over klimmer's off-topic thread? i've done a lot of camping in your back yard, kabala.

look what da-cat is dragging in. yes, buddy, probably right about some of that, and i'm not even going to demand "proof" because i know how hard that is to come by. wikimagic tells us paul's mother lived in rome, and "He was also a 'free born' citizen of Rome, an honor not often granted to outsiders."

can't say where i got that idea about tax collecting, but we were discussing (in case you didn't notice) the possibility of roman motivation in the promotion of early christianity, and this raises a little suspicion around paul. as to his utimate fate, you're swimming in more scholarly quicksand. they sure loved to execute people back then. christians themselves developed that nasty habit some time later.

josephus's reference to jesus seems to have suffered the same spin-doctoring that plagues the bible. what you don't have from the times contemporaneous to jesus is a general uproar over the extraordinary man who did miracles. jesus's miracles, in the gospel accounts, seemed aimed at bringing people over to his camp. he didn't go around raising a lot of people from the dead--just lazarus. then everyone marveled at what a spectacular guy jesus was. i'll bet lazarus went on to die again. this is part of what makes me so suspicious about the christian myth, and therein lies the appeal of the extraterrestrial hypothesis--or what vallee would have us revise into "the extradimensional hypothesis"--to explain this material.

i hate to get back on topic here, but did anyone see that TV miniseries "the event"? supposedly about a president trying to prepare the public for the realities of extraterrestrials, ending in the appearance of an entire planet, out from the "nowhere" of other dimensions.

the notorious paola harris, mentioned above in connection with the sagan-hynek rumor, teaches a little "course" about how hollywood is propagandizing us to accept extraterrestrials. paola can't even spell the name of her alma mater correctly, but i think her point is well taken.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 12, 2012 - 11:39am PT
most people in ufology are anticipating some big event. jacques vallee isn't. he has also given up doing scientific studies and writing nonfiction books on the subject.

here's a somewhat dated (1995?) interview, but i don't think his position has changed. maybe he's the only hound who isn't distracted by all the red herrings.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc839.htm

a few excerpts:

"I will be disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than spaceships ..."

"I think Americans, if they are interested in the subject, are very literal. They want to kick the tires, which is a good American thing to do. They want to do reverse engineering on the propulsion system ...

"The UFO phenomenon exists. It has been with us throughout history. It is physical in nature and it remains unexplained in terms of contemporary science. It represents a level of consciousness that we have not yet recognized, and which is able to manipulate dimensions beyond time and space as we understand them ...

"When I met Stephen Spielberg, I argued with him that the subject was even more interesting if it wasn't extraterrestrials. If it was real, physical, but not ET. So he said, 'You're probably right, but that's not what the public is expecting--this is Hollywood and I want to give people something that's close to what they expect' ...

"Eighty percent of all the cases have trivial explanations. But I'm talking about the core phenomena. It seems to involve a lot of energy in a small space; it seems to involve pulsed microwaves, among other things. There isn't much that is known about the effect of pulsed microwaves on the brain, so it's quite possible that some of the stories that you get from people are essentially induced hallucinations in sincere witnesses--the witnesses are not lying ...

"I started extending a small network of scientists, which is still active, and found that there was a lot of data that was never published. In fact, the best data has never been published. I think a great deal of the misunderstanding about UFOs among scientists is that the scientists have never had access to the best data ...

"I was investigating some cases that were physically real, but they were hoaxes--yet not hoaxes on the part of the witnesses ...

"The military may be experimenting with psychological warfare techniques, as the Germans did in World War I, when they projected images of the Virgin Mary on banks of smoke in an effort to spook the French into saying their rosaries instead of killing Germans ...

"A new computer analysis of historical trends, compiled in the 1970s, led me to plot a striking graph of 'waves' of UFO activity that was anything but periodic. Fred Beckman and Dr. Price Williams of UCLA pointed out that it resembled a schedule of reinforcement typical of a learning or training process: the phenomenon was more akin to a control system than to an exploratory task force of alien travelers ..."

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
From David Flynn's really good website . . .


http://www.mt.net/~watcher/quotes.html

Here are some great UFO quotes that shed light on the deceptive nature of the "alien" presence.


"But the UFO phenomenon simply does not behave like extraterrestrial visitors. It actually molds itself in order to fit a given culture."
 John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 10
"Human beings are under the control of a strange force that bends them in absurd ways, forcing them to play a role in a bizarre game of deception."
 Dr. Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, p. 20

"We are dealing with a multidimensional paraphysical phenomenon which is largely indigenous to planet earth."
 Brad Steiger, [cited in] Blue Book Files Released in Canadian UFO Report, Vol. 4, No. 4, 1977, p. 20

"We are part of a symbiotic relationship with something which disguises itself as an extra-terrestrial invasion so as not to alarm us."
-Terrence McKenna [from a lecture]

"One theory which can no longer be taken very seriously is that UFOs are interstellar spaceships."
 Arthur C. Clarke, New York Times Book Review, 07/27/75

"There seems to be no evidence yet that any of these craft or beings originate from outer space."
-Gordon Creighton, Official 1992 Flying Saucer Review Policy Statement

"A large part of the available UFO literature is closely linked with mysticism and the metaphysical. It deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing and invisible entities as well as phenomena like poltergeist [ghost] manifestation and 'possession.' Many of the UFO reports now being published in the popular press recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena."
 Lynn E. Catoe, UFOs and Related Subjects: USGPO, 1969; prepared under AFOSR Project Order 67-0002 and 68-0003

"UFO behaviour is more akin to magic than to physics as we know it... the modern UFOnauts and the demons of past days are probably identical."
-Dr. Pierre Guerin, FSR Vol. 25, No. 1, p. 13-14

"The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon..."
 John A. Keel, UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse, p. 299

"A working knowledge of occult science...is indispensable to UFO investigation."
-Trevor James, FSR Vol. 8, No. 1, p.10

"Studies of flying saucer cults repeatedly show that they are part of a larger occult social world."
-Stupple & McNeece, 1979 MUFON UFO Symposium Proceedings, p. 49

"The 'medical examination' to which abductees are said to be subjected, often accompanied by sadistic sexual manipulation, is reminiscient of the medieval tales of encounters with demons. It makes no sense in a sophisticated or technical framework: any intelligent being equipped with the scientific marvels that UFOs possess would be in a position to achieve any of these alleged scientific objectives in a shorter time and with fewer risks."
 Dr. Jacques Vallee, Confrontations, p. 13

"The symbolic display seen by the abductees is identical to the type of initiation ritual or astral voyage that is imbedded in the [occult] traditions of every culture...the structure of abduction stories is identical to that of occult initiation rituals...the UFO beings of today belong to the same class of manifestation as the [occult] entities that were described in centuries past."
-Dr. Jacques Vallee citing the extensive research of Bertrand Meheust [Science-Fiction et Soucoupes Volantes (Paris, 1978); Soucoupes Volantes et Folklore (Paris, 1985)], in Confrontations, p. 146, 159-161

"[The occultist] is brought into intelligent communication with the spirits of the air, and can receive any knowledge which they possess, or any false impression they choose to impart...the demons seem permitted to do various wonders at their request."
 G.H. Pember, Earth's Earliest Ages and Their Connection with Modern Spiritualism and Theosophy (1876), p. 254

"These entities are clever enough to make Strieber think they care about him. Yet his torment by them never ceases. Whatever his relationship to the entities, and he increasingly concludes that their involvement with him is something 'good,' he also remains terrified of them and uncertain as to what they are."
 John Ankerberg, The Facts on UFOs and Other Supernatural Phenomena, p. 21

"I became entirely given over to extreme dread. The fear was so powerful that it seemed to make my personality completely evaporate... 'Whitley' ceased to exist. What was left was a body and a state of raw fear so great that it swept about me like a thick, suffocating curtain, turning paralysis into a condition that seemed close to death...I died and a wild animal appeared in my place."
 Whitley Strieber, Communion, p. 25-26

"Increasingly I felt as if I were entering a struggle that might even be more than life and death. It might be a struggle for my soul, my essence, or whatever part of me might have reference to the eternal. There are worse things than death, I suspected... so far the word demon had never been spoken among the scientists and doctors who were working with me...Alone at night I worried about the legendary cunning of demons ...At the very least I was going stark, raving mad."
 Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 44-45

"I wondered if I might not be in the grip of demons, if they were not making me suffer for their own purposes, or simply for their enjoyment."
 Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 172

"I felt an absolutely indescribable sense of menace. It was hell on earth to be there [in the presence of the entities], and yet I couldn't move, couldn't cry out, couldn't get away. I'd lay as still as death, suffering inner agonies. Whatever was there seemed so monstrously ugly, so filthy and dark and sinister. Of course they were demons. They had to be. And they were here and I couldn't get away."
 Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 181

"Why were my visitors so secretive, hiding themselves behind my consciousness. I could only conclude that they were using me and did not want me to know why...What if they were dangerous? Then I was terribly dangerous because I was playing a role in acclimatizing people to them."
 Whitley Strieber, Transformation, p. 96




------------------------------------------------------------------------


The alien manifestation will convince nearly everyone they have no need for a personal saviour. If aliens fulfill an antichristian agenda, aren't they part of the working of error from Satan himself, setting up the Antichrist? It just seems so obvious. Aliens must therefore be agents of Satan, the fallen angels.


Isn't it just a little bit strange that UFOs and "aliens" would single out Israel, of all places on the Earth? Look at what the RAELIAN UFO CULT has to say about the significance of Israel. This is not surprising if one knows who is the authority behind UFOs. Please view our website for the truth behind the "alien" deception, and the END OF THE AGE.


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
well, klimmer hasn't fallen asleep, but he may have picked up the dumping disease from some of his critics here.

"my dump is bigger than your dump, so i win." amazing how quickly he conjured up that last post. perhaps angels helped.

i tried to be selective, klimmer--there's a better chance that someone will actually read it that way.

interesting, isn't it, how the bible didn't save your thomas kinkade from the hell of hypocrisy?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Tony,

Christians are people. People are fallible. People aren't perfect. They can be close to GOD one day, and on another day be light-years away from him, and lost and fallen.

I feel sorry for Kinkade as a brother in Christ. I don't know all about his "fall." I don't know what happened?? What did happen???

Anyone can fall from grace and return to their former selfish ways of mankind that seem right but aren't. I've been there many times. Look at all the stories of the Bible. They exemplify this over and over again. Man is not perfect. We will stumble and fall time and time again.

The difference is . . . the Christian knows who to return too for forgiveness, for grace, and for power to carry on and to finish the race.


Tony,

It isn't a competition. I just found that page and all the quotes were right on the money so I copied and pasted. Not trying to do a bigger "dump" than you. Not even on my RADAR. I don't think that way. Plenty from Jacques Vallee though in those quotes.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 12, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
It's hard for me to not think of the whole of UFOlogy as sort of an extended multiplayer game like Dungeons & Dragons - a very extended act of participatory fiction. Melding religion to it only furthers that perception...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 12, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
i'm afraid i've taken to reading writing on the wall, klim. kinkade reminds me of the catholic church, which is always in your face about the bedroom, but when their own priests go buggering the altar boys, they've got the same set of excuses you have here.

lookit, buddy, it's hard enough to maintain a serious, adult discussion anywhere on supertopo, much less this far-out thread. in case you didn't notice, dirtbag himself exhibited a bit of intelligence here recently. (don't faint.) it'll be impossible for you to pick up on that because your education seems to consist of rigid science and rigid bible study. dirtman seems to know a little bit about the bible hodgepodge. i think you should too.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 12, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
He was Irish, is there really more to know...?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 12, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
3,000!! And if there is hidden meaning, if "3,000" is actually code for something else, then this post is right on topic. Or off topic.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
Actually you missed the lucky post by one.

3001!!!!!


Lol.









(Just kidding)
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 13, 2012 - 10:32am PT
what you fail to grasp, klim, is the occultness of christianity. an alleged religion of light, producing the darkest results century after century.

btw, vallee is not a folklorist, and i don't find his observations in that area particularly perceptive.

what we're confronted with here is an attempt to define ourselves. christianity, despite being the mainstream of the west, has failed to produce what i would call real civilization: a stable, viable, sustainable human society, a society with a future. human history is one of constant disruption by these demonic influences. when christianity took over in its part of the world, it participated in the demonization of humanity. humanity can't be itself, and christianity has been a prime culprit in that.

It's hard for me to not think of the whole of UFOlogy as sort of an extended multiplayer game like Dungeons & Dragons.

healyje, what you have to consider is that the "creative" people who give us things like D&D--and the spielberg movies and most of what hollywood produces in this area--are not creative writers of fiction at all, but stenographers. their material is dictated to them from this unbelievable realm, and they simply dress it up for the entertainment market. boy, do they have a good thing going.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 13, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Water, Water Everywhere – But Is It Essential to Life? New Findings Could Lead to Better Industrial Enzymes
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Apr 13, 2012 - 07:32am PT

what you fail to grasp, klim, is the occultness of christianity. an alleged religion of light, producing the darkest results century after century.

btw, vallee is not a folklorist, and i don't find his observations in that area particularly perceptive.

what we're confronted with here is an attempt to define ourselves. christianity, despite being the mainstream of the west, has failed to produce what i would define as civilization: a stable, viable, sustainable human society, a society with a future. human history is one of constant disruption by these demonic influences. when christianity took over in its part of the world, it participated in the demonization of humanity. humanity can't be itself, and christianity has been a prime culprit in that.



Tony.

You're treading on dangerous ground. Calling true Christianity an occult???


Isaiah 5:20 (KJV)
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!



Do not call those who do evil in the name of Christ, Christians. They are not.

Do not blame Christ for those who misappropriate his name and do evil with it.

Perhaps you should read the April 9, 2012, cover story for Newsweek magazine, "Forget the Church, Follow Jesus" by Andrew Sullivan.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/04/01/andrew-sullivan-christianity-in-crisis.html
I don't agree with everything in the article but it does have a pure and good message. There are some errors in his reasoning however.

You know all about COINTELPRO don't you in regards to how those who would do evil infiltrate social groups who would do good? Same can happen in Christendom. They have. Throughout history. Lucifer and his minions and those people who would follow him have attempted to destroy the Church of GOD from the inside out. Don't be fooled.

Don't call Good evil, and evil good.

Jacques Vallee is a very smart, perceptive man and scientist. If it looks like a demon, and acts like a demon, and they do the same things that have historically been associated with demons, perhaps then they are demons.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 15, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
klimmer, let's begin with your favorite word here, demon, from the greek, daimon. daimon has had many connotations, from the "evil" one you use here, to a usage pretty much like our contemporary word "genius", for someone smart and creative. the original meaning, according to the liddell-scott lexicon i use, was simply "god" or "goddess". then it was applied to the departed souls of humans, after they die. then it came to mean your devils, a rather late meaning for the word. this "evil" meaning seems to correspond, in time, to the intensification of the good-versus-evil mythology which i have referred to previously. you'll find that carefully outlined in a book you're not going to want to read, elaine pagels's the origin of satan. pagels says that satan started taking on the character of ultimate evil when he could be blamed for the fact that other people wouldn't accept religious orthodoxy. i'll bet that book will never show up in your pastor's library.

you're the one walking on shaky ground here, klim. i've started to wonder whether your motivations on supertopo have a lot to do with your going through a divorce. i'd like to hear from your wayward wife whether her life turned into hell and whether you, the holy one, had the teensiest thing to do with it.

while you're busy defending jesus in the one true way, consider yanking your kids out of catholic school. many "christians" don't even consider catholics "christians" (this was an interesting surprise to me), and many think that the pope is satan's secret representative on earth.

Calling true Christianity an occult???

the key word there is "true", my friend. one man's "true christianity" is the next one's heresy and work of the devil. please don't blame me for sticking my fingers in my ears and running away from the lot of them.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 15, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
you're the one walking on shaky ground here, klim. i've started to wonder whether your motivations on supertopo have a lot to do with your going through a divorce. i'd like to hear from your wayward wife whether her life turned into hell and whether you, the holy one, had the teensiest thing to do with it.

Kind of a low blow Tony!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 15, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
i thought klimmer calling his soon-to-be-ex wife "wayward" was a low blow. you'll find that on the kinkade thread. she's not on here to present her point of view, so you have to back-engineer it from everything klimmer tells us.

look, i went through a divorce of my own in my early 30s. i was about as religious as klimmer up until that point. religion doesn't help with important things like that, it just puts everyone into different boats, all bound for hell. i think the truth exists far outside that box--the practical truths about how to live our lives, and the theoretical truths about things like the paranormal.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 15, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Ah, thanks Tony. Context is important.

lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
Tony,

You make a good point; whether Klimmer has gone through a divorce or not goes beyond the religious rant, everything he has posted has to do is with government conspiracies. True on COINTELPRO but that was with the left or Nixon’s Anti-War movement. Actually was going on well before but came out from the exposure during his downfall.

We all have the right to say, speak, write or even publish on anything but up to a point; you cannot publish or distribute pornographic photos of children, you cannot publish or say that you are going to kill someone. If you do then the rights of those exposed are violated. The government: local or federal will take action and keep a watch to see that you are not a threat. If you are then they will monitor you.

Most of the monitoring or looking on our sites is for [A]National Security for Cyber-attacks [which is #1] and [C]if you use/have a HP printer and start printing pornographic photos of children; HP will notify the right authorities, mainly the FBI task force that takes care of that.

#2 priorities: Homeland Security is now focused on right-wing militias [mainly Christian], conspiracy nuts, lone wolfs, copy cats and this falls right in the hands of what Klimmer’s thoughts or threads that is worrisome. If you take these things too seriously you forget about reason and common sense; this is where Klimmer has a problem.

To me he spends too much time and energy and this can be dangerous; sometimes he makes a good point but very few. He falls way into too much disinformation and the wrong sources; all he needs to read and look at the opposite end of the spectrum and then find the middle to come to conclusions.

There has to be point in life and move on if you don’t the problem will just get worse and could be serious/dangerous to oneself or to others.

Klimmer:

“You know all about COINTELPRO don't you in regards to how those who would do evil infiltrate social groups who would do good? Same can happen in Christendom. They have. Throughout history. Lucifer and his minions and those people who would follow him have attempted to destroy the Church of GOD from the inside out. Don't be fooled.”

“Same can happen in Christendom”. It is not Lucifer they are searching for, it is the leaders and followers that lack the wisdom that are the threat. Especially the ones that do not want our current President to be have a second term just to name one of many on their agenda.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 15, 2012 - 07:49pm PT
nice little box you've devised there, shanghai. count me outside that one too.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
klimmer, let's begin with your favorite word here, demon, from the greek, daimon. daimon has had many connotations, from the "evil" one you use here, to a usage pretty much like our contemporary word "genius", for someone smart and creative. the original meaning, according to the liddell-scott lexicon i use, was simply "god" or "goddess". then it was applied to the departed souls of humans, after they die. then it came to mean your devils, a rather late meaning for the word. this "evil" meaning seems to correspond, in time, to the intensification of the good-versus-evil mythology which i have referred to previously. you'll find that carefully outlined in a book you're not going to want to read, elaine pagels's the origin of satan. pagels says that satan started taking on the character of ultimate evil when he could be blamed for the fact that other people wouldn't accept religious orthodoxy. i'll bet that book will never show up in your pastor's library.

Tony,

You have to rightly divide the word of GOD to know the truth of the matter. You actually have to go to the source itself and see how they are defined in context.

You have the Heavenly Host. Many of them are Angels of GOD (there are other wonderfully bizarre creatures in Heaven that the Good Book describes.) You have the Good Angels who have not left GOD and continue to serve him, and then you have the bad ones like Lucifer who turned their back on GOD and fell. The fallen Angels. 33% of them went with Lucifer and fell. Some of the fallen Angels mated with woman of Earth. Their off-spring were the worst of fallen Angels and sinful fallen mankind and the woman they mated with. Their off-spring were called Nephilim. They had extraordinary strength, power, intelligence, and size. They were an abomination that were not meant to exist or be. When Nephilim die they they turn into Demons. Fallen Angles, Nephilim, and Demons have no hope of salvation. They are at war with GOD and work against mankind.

The evidence from many sources say there is a direct connection between Fallen Angels, Nephilim, Demons, and the ETs masquerading and flying around, doing unspeakable horrific acts, and abducting and harassing mankind. I've brought that to your attention. You dismiss it with the wave of your hand. Time will tell.



you're the one walking on shaky ground here, klim. i've started to wonder whether your motivations on supertopo have a lot to do with your going through a divorce. i'd like to hear from your wayward wife whether her life turned into hell and whether you, the holy one, had the teensiest thing to do with it.

I've been at ST since 2003. From the Your First post to Supertopo thread . . . long before an problems in marriage. I'm here to talk about all issues, including climbing.

Feb 29, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Man, I was contraversial from the get go . . . lol.

Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2003 - 12:40am PT

While I was Busy flying, Paradise was Ransacked and Ruined . . .

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=17754&msg=17754#msg17754




while you're busy defending jesus in the one true way, consider yanking your kids out of catholic school. many "christians" don't even consider catholics "christians" (this was an interesting surprise to me), and many think that the pope is satan's secret representative on earth.

Catholics are Christians. I know many who are very faithful to GOD and Christ. There are differences in doctrine to be sure between Catholics and Protestants, but we have more in common than differences. The Pope is not Christ on Earth, nor do we have to go through the Pope to talk with Jesus and GOD. All Christians have direct access through faith and prayer.



Calling true Christianity an occult???

the key word there is "true", my friend. one man's "true christianity" is the next one's heresy and work of the devil. please don't blame me for sticking my fingers in my ears and running away from the lot of them.

I've explained the difference. And the Newsweek article does a pretty good job too. Jesus said you would know them by their works. Do they act and do what Jesus does or not? If they are contrary to GOD, and Jesus Christ's teaching then they are not Christian. Perhaps they are fallen from grace and are in error?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 15, 2012 - 09:56pm PT
What's "Occult" mean? Seems like anything that deals with the supernatural world in any way except via pure blind faith involves something "occult"

Peace

Karl
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 15, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
The occult, witchcraft, sorcery, astrology etc. are strictly forbidden by GOD throughout The Good Book, The Bible.

There is real power in these practices, but it's not of GOD but from Lucifer. One who practices these arts and occult practices are tapping into "the dark side." You are opening yourself to very real dark sinister powers and they ultimately want to and will destroy you.

There is Love, Peace, and Safety with GOD.

By the way, Google the occult, witchcraft, sorcery, astrology, UFOs, ETs and you will see an unmistakable connection. Many who were in the occult, Satanic worship, Luciferians, also have UFO and ET experiences.

Is there any wonder why? There shouldn't be. The source is the same. Lucifer.


THE OCCULT—What does the Bible say about it?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-occult.html

http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-newagespiritualwarfare/astrologyoccultmediumsdivinationsorcery.php


William J. Schnoebelen:
He was a catholic priest, a Mason, an occult practicer, Lucifer Worshiper, Satanist, Witch etc. You name it, he was into all of it. Then he came back to GOD and asked forgiveness and left all of that incredible evil behind. Now he lives for GOD and warns people of the evil of "the other side." He also talks about the connection of UFOs/ETs with the occult and Satanism.

William J. Schnoebelen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Schnoebelen
http://www.withoneaccord.org/
http://www.withoneaccord.org/UFOs_c_8.html

The Sons of God and the Antichrist - Bill Schnoebelen - The Prophecy Club.avi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJJ0ZaFg3D4&feature=related
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 15, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
slow down, klimmer--you're dumping again.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:07am PT
Sorry, but I just can't accept that a grown man actually believes in angels and devils.

I feel as I am reading the words of a child.

You can take this any way you care to, Klimmer.

I really don't care. You naivete insults me.

This thread, which you started, is supposed to be about a possible alien ark on the moon.

But you just can't stop yourself from constantly, constantly, posting your 13th century,
extremely literal bible god stuff, as if you yourself are so doubtful of what you believe
that you have to look for reassurance from other people.

You just can't stop talking you, your god, your religion.

You are nauseatingly childish when you go on about little angels and devils.

Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:11am PT
Klimmer: you coming to the GordonFest? How about you Bird?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:14am PT
Hard to imagine exactly what it is the Klimmerati wouldn't believe.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 16, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Sorry, but I just can't accept that a grown man actually believes in angels and devils.

god, norton--lots of grown men--and women, for that matter--are out there pastorizing churches full of grown men and women every sunday. some believe in those critters more than others, but i can't believe--or should i be using your word, "accept"?--that a rational fellow like you closes his mind to that.

dig a little deeper into this subject. none of glenn's attackers on here have covered the material to the point where they even begin to offer insight. most are still in the "oh, that was light reflecting on a cloud" camp. his conclusions are based on his personal belief system, but he has a couple things going for him his attackers seem to lack: curiosity and imagination. i think healyje's words are telling: "hard to imagine". but for some reason you guys just can't stick your noses in the air and walk away.

let's back this thread up to the very beginning, glenn. i think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

you like to talk about "the deceiver" a lot, but that ark-on-the-moon itself probably constitutes a deception. you're giving us the spielberg version. that thing is a classic nuts-and-bolts flying saucer. the debate has gotten more sophisticated than that. vallee is on the right track. spielberg himself seems to have admitted as much.

karl's point is well taken. "the occult" can be approached rationally and with decency. you don't have to become a part of it the way aleister crowley did in order to examine it. i don't think you have to be waving crosses at vampires either, like in the old movies. yes, dangerous territory, but ignoring it is worse. if there's any intention to the deception, it would appear that it is to divide and confuse us and turn us against each other. shanghai's post here is just one of the many dark flowers of that current, which includes centuries of religious persecutions, religion-justified imperialism, and nonreligious political fascism. you too are being divisive, glenn. your brand of divisiveness has been the thrust of jewish and christian thinking from the outset, a whisper in the ear that you are chosen over all the rest of the human race, an offer to be on the inside track and leave the others behind. open your eyes to that.

i started taking this discussion seriously thanks to some work by the late c. scott littleton, an anthropology prof at occidental college, a decent, rational, intelligent man. he actually taught an accredited course on the occult. no, i never took it, but i think he must have given his students a framework with which to deal with the disturbing information which is an increasing part of our world.
new world order-

climber
Apr 16, 2012 - 11:13am PT
Satanic Ritual Performed at The NFL Half Time Show by Madonna.
http://worldtruth.tv/satanic-ritual-performed-at-the-nfl-half-time-show/

David Icke - Satanic Rituals
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/64924-david-icke-satanic-rituals

Bohemian Grove exposed.
45 minutes in length....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKjHsH4Dg1k

Alex Jones asks David Gergen about Bohemian Grove Rituals.
3 minutes in length.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHFoUZEjuNM&feature=player_embedded
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Christ expected his disciples and followers to embody spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues, giving spiritual healings and more. The Magi found him via the message of a star (undoubtedly more like Astrology than figuring out which star was hanging over a barn somewhere) Prophecy (good) and soothsaying (bad) are shades of the same thing.

And even to have an intuitive connection with God/Jesus could be considered "occult."

and if you don't have that, you're just believing words written by folks 2000 years ago who potentially had an axe to grind.

Jesus himself offered animals for slaughter to sacrfice to God, which might raise occult eyebrows today.

"Occult" is an undefined kinda thing. Many would say concern about aliens is Occult

Peace

Karl
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
Tony Bird said:

god, norton--lots of grown men--and women, for that matter--are out there pastorizing churches full of grown men and women every sunday. some believe in those critters more than others, but i can't believe--or should i be using your word, "accept"?--that a rational fellow like you closes his mind to that.

little critters indeed

hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:53pm PT
Klim: I am a christian too. But sometimes I feel that these ramblings are only making you and the others dig deeper into your own beleifs. And thus not getting anywhere.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14
hairyapeman

Trad climber
Fres-yes
Apr 16, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
True Dr. F.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 16, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
How exactly is it that you can believe in your god without believing in every god any man has believed in for the past 50,000 years?
new world order-

climber
Apr 16, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
Edit: Would anyone here acknowledge Satanic worship and rituals do not exist?

Satanic Ritual Performed at The NFL Half Time Show by Madonna.
http://worldtruth.tv/satanic-ritual-performed-at-the-nfl-half-time-show/

Bohemian Grove exposed.
45 minutes in length....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKjHsH4Dg1k

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
Gee keeping up with this thread is hard work . . .


LostinShanghi,

I never responded to you. Your reasoning is really, really scary. If anyone should be watched by the government it should be people who spew non-sense and dangerous hateful vitriol like you do. Welcome to your own NWO by your creation.

You are trying to lump all Christians whether they be True Christians with those who misappropriate his name. Don't ever confuse the two.

Jesus Christ was never about militia or ever doing anything by violence. His message was only about peace, love, compassion, and doing good to those who hate and persecute you. Love your enemy. All of which is far more powerful than hate and violence.

Your attempting to some how try to connect me with false witnesses of Jesus Christ and with those who would form militias and take and misappropriate the name of Jesus. You can't. I'm a True Christian. My Lord doesn't allow hate and violence. "Those who live by the sword will die by the sword." We are supposed to do good to those who hate and persecute us. We are commanded to love our enemies.

Your argument and reasoning are completely unfounded and empty, and they go nowhere.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 16, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
Yep, I'm convinced. She's holding her arms just like satan is. LOL!

Klimmer, is it true Satan has a goat like head?

Did the angels mate with goat women too?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
Apr 15, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
Klimmer: you coming to the GordonFest? How about you Bird?

Russ,

Thanks for the invite but it's my and John Muir's B-day. I have fun plans with my kids.

Besides I really don't think it would be much fun for me knowing that it could just turn into ridicule and abuse toward me and my faith. Maybe yes, maybe no? I don't know. I do far better with just a few people face to face where we can talk peacefully without "the feeding the Christian to the lions" group think and mentality that can happen. I don't want to become a speckacle for peoples warped sense of entertainment. Not saying it would happen, but it could happen.

"Be as wise as a serpent and tender as a dove," as the Good Book says.

Hope the party is a good one, safe, and fun one for all though. I've met Todd G. at Mt. Rubidoux, and He seems to be a good husband, father, and teacher, and as well a good climber.

new world order-

climber
Apr 16, 2012 - 02:27pm PT
^^^ Fair enough, Malemute.

Care to answer me this...Is Satanic worship and ritual, for real?



Aren't Freemason's Christians

Dr. F.
The lower degrees/levels of Freemasonry are not in tune with what goes on in the 33rd degree. They are merely porch masons who believe what they are doing is good (giving to charities and the like).

It is the higher ups who pull the strings, as in Bush senior, Clintons, Rockefellars, Rothchilds, British Royal Family, etc.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 02:37pm PT
NWO,

You are correct ;-) I have several books on the Freemasons and the lower levels/degrees are purposefully kept in the dark as to the truth of what Freemasonry is all about.

Freemasonry is Luciferian and this is without a doubt. I can provide links to great articles and book titles exposing this later.


Pure insanity

New World Order
Maybe what Christians worship now and Satan are the same too.

Aren't Freemason's Christians

Dr.F,

The NWO is very real. They are very much in our face about it all now. The NWO is the 21st century "Tower of Babble 2.0" all over again. And like the first Tower of Babble, GOD will bring it down and destroy it. It's already foretold. Read your Bible.

Same warning. Don't call Good evil, and evil Good.




Edit:

By the way, it is known that Madonna is into Kabbalism and they are into gnosticism. There is a direct connection to what she is certainly portraying in that half-time show. It's no coincidence. They are very much into deep and meaningful symbolism.

On a related note . . .
In the movie District 9 (all about aliens!!), the military are wearing white battle armor with a logo of a goat-head within a pentagram on their battle armor centered over their chests. It's almost as if they are saying, We are the Army of Lucifer.

The symbolism is everywhere if you look for it.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 16, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
The symbolism is everywhere if you imagine it.

Fixed that for you Klimmer.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2012 - 03:04pm PT
I wish that I was not expected to respect other people's opinions.

Privately I often do not, but have to pretend to be understanding and tolerant.

Such is my lot.

Little critters indeed.

Not to mention angels and devils.

And why not fairies and leprechauns.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 16, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
Klimmer: Let this sink in.
new world order-

climber
Apr 16, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Ok. Well put!
new world order-

climber
Apr 16, 2012 - 04:56pm PT

Why would you name yourself the very thing you are afraid is Taking Over and you are trying to expose?????

Good doctor, you answered your own question. I named myself that, in order to expose it.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 16, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
Discussing global socio-economic conspiracies is one thing.
Dicussing ufos, sasquatch, and ghosts is another thing.
Discussing religion is yet another thing.

To be blunt, taking any one of them seriously is fairly childish from my perspective. It lacks an even vaguely nuanced world view and a paucity of common sense. Honestly believing them conflating in any way at all? A sure sign of a weak, bored, desperate, delusional, or otherwise generally unwell state of mind, unless of course this is in the context of some sort of 'hobby' such as one finds at ComicCon.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Apr 16, 2012 - 05:27pm PT
So why for years now have you been incessantly compelled to respond and take part in such discussions.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
glenn. your brand of divisiveness has been the thrust of jewish and christian thinking from the outset, a whisper in the ear that you are chosen over all the rest of the human race, an offer to be on the inside track and leave the others behind. open your eyes to that.

Tony,

There is one way to tell if a prophet (read the Bible to know what they said) or that the Son of GOD is real and that they're telling the truth (read the Bible to know what Jesus Christ said). Wait to see if what they/he said will happen, happens. It either does or it doesn't. Then you'll know.

Out of all the religious faiths in the World, and there are many. Doesn't it seem that there has been a deliberate and purposeful mass confusion caused with the plurality of all faiths and religions? There has been. And its working to confuse the World. Only one is telling the complete truth. It is always good to mix-in a little truth, to bring them in, but not too much truth. You don't want the people of the World waking-up and getting it, if your whole intent is to delude them. Who doesn't want us to know the truth, and who lies? "The Father of Lies" as The Good Book calls him. Lucifer. By the way, he knows the word of GOD and he twists it around and he will use it out of context to confuse the masses. He even did this with Jesus, on Jesus's 40 day journey through the wilderness.

I'm no better or chosen over anyone else. Everyone is called. However, few accept or take the invitation. But the invitation goes out to everyone. All are invited.

There is no money to pay. In fact, if it ever took money to receive GOD's grace, no one could afford the unbelievable and incredible price. We would never be able to afford it, ever. So Grace is freely given by GOD. No one can earn it so that we can't brag or boast. All we have to do is accept his free gift of grace.

Hey, I haven't hid this knowledge. I give it out freely just as it is was given to me. Freely. From one person to another. One believer to one unbeliever. And one believer to another believer.

This is no secret club to belong too. All is done in the complete light of day. Nothing to hide. There are no secret handshakes to learn, or membership fees to pay, or secret oaths to take. There are no secret agendas. All are invited and the the price is free. You just have to accept the invitation and come and follow Jesus. It's as simple as that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Apr 16, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Klimmer
I hate the New World Order.
But have little fear that it is as bad as you conspiracy nuts think it is.


Dr. F,

Have you read the Book of Revelation word for word and contemplating all that it says? The NWO is wickedly evil and it will get really, really bad. The World is Lucifer's abode. The NWO is his last days government and part of his plan. Just wait until Lucifer is permanently cast to Earth and locked out of Heaven, and he then declares War on mankind. That will be the time of "The Wrath of Lucifer." We aren't there yet. It will get worse, much worse.

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time.” Revelation 12


I'm not looking forward to that time. Like I said before, I wish we could just hit the FF button and get to the 1000 years of peace, The Millennium. But its not a matter of my will, but of GOD's will. He has a plan, and it will bring many, many more people to GOD, through his gift of salvation through Jesus Christ as a result.

I guess sometimes rebellious and stubborn mankind has to get really "spanked" hard to wake the heck up.


Edit:

"Spanked" is a metaphor guys.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 16, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
Don't forget to double spank the wayward women.

Really, it was a metaphor? Who would have guessed. We thought you liked to spank guys Klimmer. LOL!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 16, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
yes!

I think somewhere in the Bible spanking is ok

After all, beating your children with a "rod" so they don't get "spoiled" is ok
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 16, 2012 - 09:54pm PT
So why for years now have you been incessantly compelled to respond and take part in such discussions.

Because I think to allow this sort of lack of judgment and common sense to go unchallenged is as dangerous for our country and the world in general as fundamentalist terrorism.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
Apr 16, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
Dr. F,

Have you read the Book of Revelation word for word and contemplating all that it says?

Yes, and it is not factual in any possible way
It's complete Mythology, and has nothing to do with the present.

Anyone can make up predictions that will come true.
To base all your beliefs on the bible just because a couple sections can be interpreted as predictions that came true for you: is Pure cultism.




Just one example . . . The Book of Revelation in The Bible was nearly 2000 years ahead of our understanding of the science of asteroid impacts. It predicts massive impacts will happen to Earth in our future . . .


Rev.1:1-2 (KJV)
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.



Revelation 8:6-13 (KJV)
[6] And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
[7] The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
[8] And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
[9] And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
[10] And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
[11] And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
[12] And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
[13] And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!




Dr. F,

Oh ye of little faith.

How long has mankind really been aware of the possibility of Comet, Asteroid, and Meteor impacts to planet Earth? About 50 years only. The true science didn't really get going until about 1961 with the help of Dr. Eugene Shoemaker, and the establishment of the science of Astrogeology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Merle_Shoemaker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_geology


Then we had the discovery of the Iridium in the layer of the clay marking the K-T boundary and the discovery of Chicxulub Crater on the coast of the Yucatan Peninsula, in the late 1970s and the 2 blow demise of the dinosaurs 65MYA (massive impact and upsurge in volcanism).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater

Then it wasn't until 1994 that we witnessed a massive comet break-up and then we watched all the pieces slam into Jupiter. The Comet Shoemaker-Levy 9. We finally woke-up to the real threat to our planet by Comets, Asteroids, and meteor impacts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Shoemaker%E2%80%93Levy_9

Now we know, and now we look for NEOs and NEAs in space that threaten planet Earth.

"Project Wormwood" one of many now around the world:
http://www.ips.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/

http://deepimpact.umd.edu/science/index.html



In the really very good VHS/DVD "NGS: Asteroids Deadly Impact" with Dr. Eugene Shoemaker he describes the Chicxulub asteroid impact as a 6 mile in diameter mountain coming out of the sky. At the end of the program they say regarding extinction level impacts, "it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when."

The Bible sees the past clearly and sees the Future clearly. GOD is not bounded by time. The Bible is the word of GOD. It is timeless. Men inspired by GOD wrote down the words of GOD as they were inspired and were instructed to do so. You should listen.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 09:57am PT
you're more lovable--and bigger--than i am, craig, but i'll come if glenn comes. i have a feeling jesus would want him to. jesus may even require it. "ministry," if you know what i mean. i'll need a ride from l.a., however.

holy cow, 4 feet of fresh snow in baldy bowl yesterday--on zero base.

i just finished vallee's 2007 novel, stratagem. he isn't as smooth a fiction writer as sagan, but i suspect sagan had a small horde of ghosts to help. vallee, poor fellow, had to self-publish it.

the important thing to notice about "the phenomenon" is its relationship with the human race. glenn's point of view is not ridiculous. the phenomenon challenges "reality", which is a fragile thing to begin with. if you're a new ager, all the aliens are flower goddesses out to help us with our spiritual growth. if you're a sour old academic, like david jacobs, you've gotten a foretaste of human doom. if you're buying the grapes of wrath, you wind up thinking like glenn here.

the crux of the issue is ETH versus EDH, and just how are the governments of the world involved? in case you haven't noticed, the government of belgium publicly concedes the legitimacy of the 1990s phenomena. it's a small country and too many people witnessed it all. you'll find a similar situation, at the state level, in arizona, where the governor himself witnessed the big show. what would it take to issue a press release telling people that such-and-such involved military testing? spies know about it anyway. they want to keep us in the dark and make idiots of ourselves in forums like this one.

that's one part of the formula you're ignoring, glenn. your god isn't playing as fair as he did in the past, when he only allowed the devil to tempt us to sin. now he lets the devil run the world.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
Apr 17, 2012 - 10:13am PT
Because I think to allow this sort of lack of judgment and common sense to go unchallenged is as dangerous for our country and the world in general as fundamentalist terrorism.

Healyje your above statement proves You are more delusional than those you seek to debunk. Homeland security needs more fools like you

And if you are ex military like you claim well that's a really f*#king scary insight into the level of stupidity which exists in a group of people whom I previously had respect for till your previous post.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2012 - 11:42am PT
Apr 17, 2012 - 07:13am PT
"Because I think to allow this sort of lack of judgment and common sense to go unchallenged is as dangerous for our country and the world in general as fundamentalist terrorism." -- HJ

"Healyje your above statement proves You are more delusional than those you seek to debunk. Homeland security needs more fools like you

And if you are ex military like you claim well that's a really f*#king scary insight into the level of stupidity which exists in a group of people whom I previously had respect for till your previous post."
-- bmacd


bmacd,

I concur with what you say. "HJ" and "Lost" both have very scary threatening knee-jerk reactions to civil discussions, as well as arguements, and people just wanting to know the truth.

HJ, while you're holding your gun barrel in front of my face, I will put a flower with stem in the barrel. It's all I can do. That, and pray for you.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Apr 17, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Hey Klimmer, aren't you ex military as well? LOL!

Thanks to JH for his service in Vietnam and his outstanding contributions here.

Not surprising that bmacd(bigfoot hunter) and you(ark on the moon) feel threatened by him. Most loonballs would.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
a good example of how faith in jesus and faith in government will lead you astray here can be found in the piney woods, texas, ufo incident of december, 1980. are you familiar with this, glenn? you should be.

three innocent american civilians, driving down a country road at night. the mofo gets in their face. there are helicopters around it. they come away with radiation burns and sickness. one was so devout she thought it was the end of the world, and she expected to see jesus come out of the diamond-shaped light, so she made the mistake of staring at it.

it was probably a nuclear-based experimental technology with something going wrong with it. it became apparent that the government was involved, but the government wouldn't admit it or accept any responsibility. one of the victims, betty cash, sued. give her credit for spirit and spunk, glenn. that's what life is about. she was never well again, and died several years later.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
Apr 17, 2012 - 08:50am PT
Hey Klimmer, aren't you ex military as well? LOL!

Thanks to JH for his service in Vietnam and his outstanding contributions here.

Not surprising that bmacd(bigfoot hunter) and you(ark on the moon) feel threatened by him. Most loonballs would.





Mono,

Yes, I am a peacetime veteran. Proud of my service. 2 years US Army Honor Guard, Sp4, 11-Bravo. Among the many duties we did, I was also on a casket carrying team. We buried many soldiers post Vietnam in Arlington National Cemetery. The outfall of the war continued for a long time. Still does.

We have a right to protect ourselves with a strong military, and to protect our way of life, and to protect the US Constitution which includes our Bill of Rights. In fact, we take an oath to do so. We don't have a right to preemptively make war or create rumors of war.

Now we are witnessing the shredding of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, from within. This isn't right. Would you agree?

Now we are witnessing what seems to be a sinister force within our nation which is turning our very own US government, and civilian police forces, against the citizens of the United States, even legislation that permits the US Armed Forces to go against the US citizens. Something is seriously, seriously wrong.

I do not advocate violence. I'm a Christian. That is 100% diametrically opposed to Christ's message. Like I said I will put flowers in gun barrels. I won't pick-up a gun. But I'm not going to shut my mouth either. I will speak truth to power. We all should. It's not right what they are doing. Everything this nation stands for, is now being blown away in the wind.

America-A-Government-Out-of-Control
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1794898/America-A-Government-Out-of-Control

Torture: Mainstream and legal in America
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1799626&msg=1799626#msg1799626



By the way, I'm a Veterans for Peace, Amnesty International, ACLU, and a Sierra Club member also.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Apr 17, 2012 - 09:07am PT
a good example of how faith in jesus and faith in government will lead you astray here can be found in the piney woods, texas, ufo incident of december, 1980. are you familiar with this, glenn? you should be.

three innocent american civilians, driving down a country road at night. the mofo gets in their face. there are helicopters around it. they come away with radiation burns and sickness. one was so devout she thought it was the end of the world, and she expected to see jesus come out of the diamond-shaped light, so she made the mistake of staring at it.

it was probably a nuclear-based experimental technology with something going wrong with it. it became apparent that the government was involved, but the government wouldn't admit it or accept any responsibility. one of the victims, betty cash, sued. give her credit for spirit and spunk, glenn. that's what life is about. she was never well again, and died several years later.



Tony,

Yes I'm a little familiar with that UFO case.

I have no doubt that our US government, the shadow government, the black hats, know exactly what is going on. They intentionally hide the UFO/ET phenomenon and what they haven't been given directly by ETs, they back engineer.

Not all UFOs are "ET." Many are perhaps our own back engineered UFO/ET technology piloted by our very own secret astronaut corp. The young gentleman from the UK, Gary McKinnon?, that the US government wants to extradite to the US bumped into UFO evidence in images and the list of "off-world" astronauts, none of whom were in the official NASA astronaut corp on Pentagon computers. There is really a great deal of evidence that "we have incredible technology that literally can take ET home," that the shadow government hides from us, and the world.

Project Camelot has great interviews with those that are very knowledgeable about all of this technology. I've posted those links before.

The US shadow government has done unspeakable things to citizens of the USA as well as citizens from other nations.

Not all are corrupt though. There are white hats throughout our government who do and try to do the right moral thing everyday. If it were not for brave people like they are we would be in far worse condition Constitutionally.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 17, 2012 - 04:23pm PT
Funny that when I sent that respond the second section about Homeland Security went bold, I did not do it maybe it went all of its own or just could be DHS making their point.

Klimmer at least you are focused on one issue for now. Can’t count all your conspiracies been so many and really could care less in taking the time to look back on all of them. I remember one that you had mentioned about the secret rocket that was launched from LA and you had your thoughts about what was going on but I gave you a clue: some latitudes and longitudes.

Lat 33° 14’ 13.7 N Long 119° 28’ 22 W

Did you ever look them up, ever find what is there; no you never did. Interesting what you might find there.

But you seek the truth maybe you are looking in the wrong place.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” carved in stone at the headquarters of the CIA.

Taken from the bible: “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”. (John 8:32)

Just that they have conveniently left out the entire quote from Jesus, which starts from 8:31 and says “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”

I think that was just before when the Jews were asking the question then they started to throw stones at him.

As for finding the truth are they/we, you seeking it or destroying it, and as for the truth making us free; does it?

I say no because we will never know.


Just on the news yesterday pilot mistakenly thought the planet Venus was an aircraft and then sent the airliner into a nosedive toward the Atlantic to avoid an imaginary collision with another plane. How about the other one last week a captain suffered a breakdown and reportedly began screaming about terrorism before being subdued by passengers.

Maybe they both need a break or some sleep.


Yesterday met a Irag Vet had a t-shirt on and on the back of it was the operation he was in and had small inscription "we hunt humans" so we get into a discussion and we both agreed what lies in the future. He said to me when the guys are redeployed or finished their tour that thier commanding officers say to them when you get home you might be finding yourself fighting and killing your fellow Americans someday soon.

We both said to each other before we left: Good luck and Stay safe.

So sing your anthem; many have just hate to you to end up this way. Self-confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik told his trial in Norway Tuesday that he was motivated by "goodness, not evil" and said, "I would have done it again.

Hey! at least you follow ACLU so you get a + point for that. That's where I would spend my time on.

Edit: ACLU just do not like nut cases or avoid them since they need reason and good judgment.

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
Hey Klimmer, aren't you ex military as well? LOL!

Thanks to JH for his service in Vietnam and his outstanding contributions here.

He said to me when the guys are redeployed or finished their tour that thier commanding officers say to them when you get home you might be finding yourself fighting and killing your fellow Americans someday soon.

haha--the first question is, "whose side are you on?"

the next question is, "what are you on?"
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 17, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
haha--the first question is, "whose side are you on?"

Easy question: choose your colour: Blue or Red. Each state is colored now; so move in one or get out of the other.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
Apr 17, 2012 - 01:23pm PT
Funny that when I sent that respond the second section about Homeland Security went bold, I did not do it maybe it went all of its own or just could be DHS making their point.

Klimmer at least you are focused on one issue for now. Can’t count all your conspiracies been so many and really could care less in taking the time to look back on all of them. I remember one that you had mentioned about the secret rocket that was launched from LA and you had your thoughts about what was going on but I gave you a clue: some latitudes and longitudes.

Lat 33° 14’ 13.7 N Long 119° 28’ 22 W

Did you ever look them up, ever find what is there; no you never did. Interesting what you might find there.

But you seek the truth maybe you are looking in the wrong place.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” carved in stone at the headquarters of the CIA.

Taken from the bible: “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”. (John 8:32)

Just that they have conveniently left out the entire quote from Jesus, which starts from 8:31 and says “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free”

I think that was just before when the Jews were asking the question then they started to throw stones at him.

As for finding the truth are they/we, you seeking it or destroying it, and as for the truth making us free; does it?

I say no because we will never know.


Just on the news yesterday pilot mistakenly thought the planet Venus was an aircraft and then sent the airliner into a nosedive toward the Atlantic to avoid an imaginary collision with another plane. How about the other one last week a captain suffered a breakdown and reportedly began screaming about terrorism before being subdued by passengers.

Maybe they both need a break or some sleep.


Yesterday met a Irag Vet had a t-shirt on and on the back of it was the operation he was in and had small inscription "we hunt humans" so we get into a discussion and we both agreed what lies in the future. He said to me when the guys are redeployed or finished their tour that thier commanding officers say to them when you get home you might be finding yourself fighting and killing your fellow Americans someday soon.

We both said to each other before we left: Good luck and Stay safe.

So sing your anthem; many have just hate to you to end up this way. Self-confessed mass killer Anders Behring Breivik told his trial in Norway Tuesday that he was motivated by "goodness, not evil" and said, "I would have done it again.

Hey! at least you follow ACLU so you get a + point for that. That's where I would spend my time on.

Edit: ACLU just do not like nut cases or avoid them since they need reason and good judgment.


Lost,


I will get back to you, when I have time. Little league baseball calls my name.

Wow. Some scary stuff there I'm gonna have to respond to.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 17, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
currently reading hunt for the skinwalker by colm kelleher and george knapp. las vegas people will know knapp. it'd be interesting to hear from uintah mountaineers on this subject.

"hey, that's some scary sh#t." -- the nutty professor
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 17, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Just on example of military hardware going to local LEO in the country. Since this a climbing thread. What ever happened to the ark I guess is long gone and now taken over by God and the Army? the US Army or the Army of God.

San Francisco PD got $325,000 in climbing gear from Uncle Sam for 50 people couple of years back. Let's see divide and you get $6,500 of ? what kind of equipment for each climber or want a-be climbers.

Climbing? Climbing what and where in SF.

Rapping I can see: a H-3 helicopter lands on top of the old Bank of America Center also known as Triple Nickel building on 555 California St, not the highest then four SWAT “Elite Climbing Team” raps down to the 23 floor crashes through the windows and sprays the room with 3-400 rounds of 5.56mm rounds. Opps! Wrong room, they jug back up, move back into position and rap again then take out the person holding the hostage and her baby in one swoop on the 13th floor. A Cobra is used as back up just in case more armaments are needed. Call comes in there are Wall Street protestors on Market Street and the police kindly say remove yourselves from the streets or get sprayed with high fire 35,000 round cannon mounted on both sides to fire rubber bullets from the aircraft above you.

So look at it this way, they are going to look for instructor’s maybe they have already but if you do get a call by all means take or make the most of it and say no less than $850.00 an hour,expenses,lodging,leave time, food/beer/wine/wiskey and prostitutes. If they disagree negotiate on the prostitutes and make it tittie bars.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 18, 2012 - 02:53am PT
...and people just wanting to know the truth.

You mean fabricate an enduring matrix of bullshit that propogates nutjob to nutjob over the internet like waves in a tank that is constantly agitated by people who long ago lost their ability to recognize or distinguish the truth.

Nothing is sadder as a technologist then to look out over the potential of the internet only to find it swamped with porn, paranormal bullsh#t, and religious poison. As risks to our nation goes, I personally rank this form of corruption of mind as dangerous as the likes of rightwing media and the tea party.

In fact, the media mechanics of your whole paranormal shtick and stock-in-trade is now virtually indistinguishable from what rightwing media jocks and Rovian political operators who every day work to divide this nation. No different in the way they know when they plant their particular poison it will spread from mouth-to-mouth reverberating their agenda across the internet among those who without the common sense to see their bullshit for what it is.

So here I remain and will be saddling you with the conintel of common sense as an agent of the rational and the obvious.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2012 - 11:18am PT
who long ago lost their ability to recognize or distinguish the truth.

Another "Absolute" by the proponent of "there's no absolute truth"

There's no escape .......
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 18, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
glenn, you should take a real close look at hunt for the skinwalker.

tom gorman, the main mover in that account--his real name, now released, being terry sherman--is a religious-enough mormon rancher, but probably more rancher than mormon. he didn't deal with your "deceiver" by praying to jesus, at least directly, or with crosses, incantations or exorcisms. he was just plain stubborn. he had a spread, he had prize cattle, and when his family had to move away for their own peace of mind, he stayed on as manager and assisted the researchers. you're not looking at devils here, you're looking at a larger reality which everyone, sooner or later, will learn about.

bmacd would be interested in the book's discussion of paranormal aspects of sasquatch.

cintune, who posted an interesting link on other dimensions upthread, might be interested too. many anecdotes at that ranch--i know "anecdote" is a dirty word--strongly suggest the "interdimensional".

cintune's dimension guy lost me going from the 5th dimension to the 6th. seems like you could revisit your past and go to the future--all you really need to do, right?--messing with the 4th dimension (time) from a position in the theoretical 5th. what am i missing? i'm afraid i find "string theory tells us" about as convincing as "the bible tells us".

healbro is finally putting some of his cards on the table. i think he's on a mission here, just like glenn. missionaries arrive with their heads full of their own beliefs, and the strongest belief of all is that the natives don't know sh#t.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 18, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
Well, as someone married to an enrolled member of the Colville Tribe I can assure you the 'natives' are way up on the truth.

For several hundred years Native Americans have been subjected to exactly same sort of myth, misinformation, media manipulation, demonization, and bullshit that goes down in this thread daily. The genocide of Native Americans has been supported from day one by just this sort of rampant fear, unsupported speculation, rumors, heresay, unadulterated fiction, fantasy, and flat out lies.

A perfect example of exactly why I consider this sort of bullshit so dangerous.

[ P.S. Skinwalker Ranch: really? That place was a majestic piece of PR work and a veritable Branson of paranormal activity. If you could associate it with the word 'paranormal' then it happened there. The odds would have made W.C. Fields and P.T. Barnum proud. ]
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 18, 2012 - 04:06pm PT
natives didn't have media manipulation before white man, tonto.

if it might help, i've been married to a japanese for 28 years, and i am daily reminded how little i know about japan.

the skinwalker effort attracted a "pigmalion" award from illustrious fluffball james randi, who holds a phd in parlor tricks from the alice cooper institute. randi did not volunteer to live on the ranch for a few months, which really might have debunked it. it's interesting that randi has never picked on hynek or vallee. sometimes little people run out of little targets. i think the book itself deals credibly with the media circus it inspired.

one reason i bought hunt for the skinwalker was the involvement of george knapp, whose journalistic skills seem to have been boiled hard. here's knapp's part of the forward as to why he got involved:


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 18, 2012 - 07:25pm PT


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 18, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
natives didn't have media manipulation before white man, tonto.

Read it again dude, Native Americans weren't doing the manipulating - the European and American media of the day such as it has been from the 1400 to the present day have done the manipulating.

And Knapp is one of many folks who have sought to monetize the paranormal. And what a coincidence the Skinwalker PR machine was established after Bigelow bought the place and and Knapp joined the NDIS after a stint at a PR firm.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 12:03am PT
Yesterday met a Irag Vet had a t-shirt on and on the back of it was the operation he was in and had small inscription "we hunt humans" so we get into a discussion and we both agreed what lies in the future. He said to me when the guys are redeployed or finished their tour that thier commanding officers say to them when you get home you might be finding yourself fighting and killing your fellow Americans someday soon.

We both said to each other before we left: Good luck and Stay safe.




Lost and HJ,


It seems you're both US veterans, am I right? Right-wing and can't tolerate others thinking outside the box. Sad really.

Lost,

What you have to say really is absolutely dangerous and absolutely nuts. If you're OK with our US military service shooting at and killing our own US citizens, seek therapy and help immediately. It seems you are on the edge and ready to topple off it. Like I said I'll stick flowers with stems in your gun barrel and pray for you.

HJ,

Seems you can't fathom or stand the thought that people want to talk about interesting ideas and beliefs, and like to ask deep questions, regardless how "out-there" it all sounds like and seems. Many of us don't see eye-to-eye, but at least I'm being respectful. Most of us who are talking about these ideas and beliefs are. Those who think these ideas and beliefs are nuts, are intolerant, unbelievably rude, throwing out ad hominem attacks constantly, and threatening.

I'm not doing that to anyone. You can sit-back and think it's all as serious as someone talking about Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, or Leprechauns. So be it. That's your opinion. I'm not threatening anyone. The message of Jesus Christ isn't threatening. Emmanuel's message is about peace, love, and hope. UFOs/ET are a part of this discussion, because the Good Book has a great deal to say about them. Just watch Ancient Aliens on The History Channel if you don't think so.

Perhaps talking about truth and trying to wrestle it out intellectually you feel threatened by that? So then simply don't click on this thread. Go away and leave others alone.

If you and Lost continue doing what you do, both of you are just coming across as intolerant and narrow minded right-wing bullies, and dangerous ones at that.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 12:16am PT
Tony,


The book Hunt for Skinwalker looks interesting. I'll have to put it on my Amazon wish list.

I'm very familiar with Knapp from Vegas. He broke the Bob Lazar, Area 51, story way back when.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lazar
http://www.unitednuclear.com/
http://thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/12insiders/Bob_Lazar_001.html

They really tried to close down Bob Lazar. He may have been set-up to fall. Evidence has come out that he did indeed work at Los Alamos Natonal Laboratories, and that records of his employment and phone book listing within Los Alamos community do indeed exist, even though they tried to erase all traces.


http://home.earthlink.net/~alpha-quadrant/lazar.html
"Former co-workers at Los Alamos confirm that Lazar worked for a contractor there but seem highly skeptical of his later S-4 claims. They assert that he never held any high-level position at Los Alamos."
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:07am PT
i have to thank you, healyje, for the colville reference, which led me to come across the remarkable art of joe feddersen.

perhaps not unrelated, we find a remarkable artist, edward carlos, featured in one of john mack's books.

louis l'amour: the haunted mesa. strictly fiction, of course.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 19, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Klimmer,

I am not going to take the time to tell you what is happing but the military as well as local LEO are well aware of the treat of rightwing militias, others are hate groups, another group are the conspiracies nuts about our government hiding information.

Americans are sheep you are one of them.

April 19 2012 [There is already a thread on Ted Nugent on ST].

WASHINGTON - Rocker and gun-rights champion Ted Nugent says he will meet today with the Secret Service to explain his raucous remarks about what he called President Obama's "evil, America-hating administration" - comments some critics interpreted as a threat against the president.
"The conclusion will be obvious that I threatened no one," Nugent told radio interviewer Glenn Beck on Wednesday. Nugent said he'd been contacted by the agency and would cooperate fully even though he found the complaints "silly."

The controversy erupted after the self-styled "Motor City Madman" made an impassioned plea for support for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney during the National Rifle Association meeting in St. Louis last weekend. "We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November," Nugent said of the Obama administration.

He also included a cryptic pronouncement: "If Barack Obama becomes the next president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year."

Here is just one that feels/thoughts about our election soon to come.

Let’s define extremists:

Extremism is usually contrasted with moderation, and extremists with moderates. (For example, in contemporary discussions in Western countries of Islam, or of Islamic political movements, it is common for there to be a heavy stress on the distinction between extremist and moderate Muslims. It is also not uncommon to necessarily define distinctions regarding extremist Christians as opposed to moderate Christians, as in countries such as the United States.

Political agendas perceived as extremist often include those from the far left or far right as well as fundamentalism or fanaticism.

The term extremism is almost invariably used pejoratively; however the term may also sometimes be associated with person(s) who have different view(s) which is not consistent with the existing norm(s). It need not necessarily imply that the person is a threat to the society or the government or any other agency, but the underlying fact is that there is a totally new and unique perception of the person about life, politics or any other agenda.

What the hell I looked it up for you:

Extremist Groups in the United States

Animal Liberation Front (ALF)
Army of God
Aryan Nations
Black Panther Party (BPP)
Black Liberation Army (BLF)
Christian-Patriots Defense League (CPDL)
Christian Defense League (CDL)
Christian Identity Movement (CIM)
Church of the Creator (COTC)
Church of Scientology (COS)
Commandos L
Concerned Christians
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSAL)
Cuban Liberator Army (CLA)
Earth First!
Earth Liberation Front (ELF)
Freemen
Fuerzas Armadas de Liberation Nacional (FALN)
Jewish Defence League (JDL)
Ku Klux Klan (KKK)
The Minutemen
Neo Nazi National Alliance
New Afrika (NA)
New Black Panther Party
New World Liberation Front NWLF
Revolutionary Alliance of (Neo)Trinitarian Youth (REALITY)
Republic of Texas
Symbionese Liberation Army
Westboro Baptist Church
World Church of the Creator

There are an additional 13 on the list, need to find them, they keep popping up more everyday from either hate or what the outcome might be from our upcoming election. I hope that Americans do not but the more I hear from people is their stupid rants because they lack information and are ignorant pretty much like you.

No, I am not rightwing; I write and publish papers [sorry not for the public to see] to protect assets [Structures and innocent people from harm] so that these idiots [fanatics] just like you don’t go over the deep end.

My personal feeling you are loosing it, maybe you are not a threat but feel at sometime all of your imaginary thoughts will get the best of you. Just make sure you take your vitamins.

So keep singing: Onward Christians soldiers marching to war: one doctrine and for evermore.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
Apr 19, 2012 - 10:04am PT
Klimmer,

I am not going to take the time to tell you what is happing but the military as well as local LEO are well aware of the treat of rightwing militias, others are hate groups, another group are the conspiracies nuts about our government hiding information.

Americans are sheep you are one of them.

April 19 2012 [There is already a thread on Ted Nugent on ST].

WASHINGTON - Rocker and gun-rights champion Ted Nugent says he will meet today with the Secret Service to explain his raucous remarks about what he called President Obama's "evil, America-hating administration" - comments some critics interpreted as a threat against the president.
"The conclusion will be obvious that I threatened no one," Nugent told radio interviewer Glenn Beck on Wednesday. Nugent said he'd been contacted by the agency and would cooperate fully even though he found the complaints "silly."

The controversy erupted after the self-styled "Motor City Madman" made an impassioned plea for support for Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney during the National Rifle Association meeting in St. Louis last weekend. "We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November," Nugent said of the Obama administration.

He also included a cryptic pronouncement: "If Barack Obama becomes the next president in November, again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year."

Here is just one that feels/thoughts about our election soon to come.

Let’s define extremists:

Extremism is usually contrasted with moderation, and extremists with moderates. (For example, in contemporary discussions in Western countries of Islam, or of Islamic political movements, it is common for there to be a heavy stress on the distinction between extremist and moderate Muslims. It is also not uncommon to necessarily define distinctions regarding extremist Christians as opposed to moderate Christians, as in countries such as the United States.

Political agendas perceived as extremist often include those from the far left or far right as well as fundamentalism or fanaticism.

The term extremism is almost invariably used pejoratively; however the term may also sometimes be associated with person(s) who have different view(s) which is not consistent with the existing norm(s). It need not necessarily imply that the person is a threat to the society or the government or any other agency, but the underlying fact is that there is a totally new and unique perception of the person about life, politics or any other agenda.

What the hell I looked it up for you:

Extremist Groups in the United States

Animal Liberation Front (ALF)
Army of God
Aryan Nations
Black Panther Party (BPP)
Black Liberation Army (BLF)
Christian-Patriots Defense League (CPDL)
Christian Defense League (CDL)
Christian Identity Movement (CIM)
Church of the Creator (COTC)
Church of Scientology (COS)
Commandos L
Concerned Christians
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSAL)
Cuban Liberator Army (CLA)
Earth First!
Earth Liberation Front (ELF)
Freemen
Fuerzas Armadas de Liberation Nacional (FALN)
Jewish Defence League (JDL)
Ku Klux Klan (KKK)
The Minutemen
Neo Nazi National Alliance
New Afrika (NA)
New Black Panther Party
New World Liberation Front NWLF
Revolutionary Alliance of (Neo)Trinitarian Youth (REALITY)
Republic of Texas
Symbionese Liberation Army
Westboro Baptist Church
World Church of the Creator

There are an additional 13 on the list, need to find them, they keep popping up more everyday from either hate or what the outcome might be from our upcoming election. I hope that Americans do not but the more I hear from people is their stupid rants because they lack information and are ignorant pretty much like you.

No, I am not rightwing; I write and publish papers [sorry not for the public to see] to protect assets [Structures and innocent people from harm] so that these idiots [fanatics] just like you don’t go over the deep end.

My personal feeling you are loosing it, maybe you are not a threat but feel at sometime all of your imaginary thoughts will get the best of you. Just make sure you take your vitamins.

So keep singing: Onward Christians soldiers marching to war: one doctrine and for evermore.


Lost,

You've lost it please check in for therapy.

I'm really tired of your extreme right wing views and threats. According to your philosophy anyone who differs in attitude or opinion or thought process from you is a threat. And you get to decide that. You're the decider. Sounds a little like Nazi Bush 2. And anyone who threatens you, you're OK with shooting them.

You are one sick puppy.

I have no more choice than to send-off an email to Chris Mac and alert him to your very obvious threats. You are a very, very scary person.

The threats in this country come from people who think and do as you do.

Last time I looked we have a Constitution and Bill of Rights. We have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. We do not have freedom to threaten anyone, even if they differ in philosophy, religion, thought process, or what have you. It's called tolerance. The True Christian faith is peaceful to the point of loving your enemies and doing good to people who persecute you. It never picks up a weapon to do harm to others.

You've crossed the line many multiple times here on ST.


No, I am not rightwing; I write and publish papers [sorry not for the public to see] to protect assets [Structures and innocent people from harm] so that these idiots [fanatics] just like you don’t go over the deep end.

My personal feeling you are loosing it, maybe you are not a threat but feel at sometime all of your imaginary thoughts will get the best of you. Just make sure you take your vitamins.



You can't even determine the real message to a very well known Christian hymn "On-ward Christian Soldier" that is beloved throughout Christendom. It's metaphorical. It's a spiritual war not a real physical war. We put on the whole armor of Christ: faith, hope, love, knowing the word of GOD etc. Good works toward others. Yes, we war against Lucifer and his minions. But it is a spiritual war, not against flesh and blood.

You are clue-less.

So keep singing: Onward Christians soldiers marching to war: one doctrine and for evermore.


Try reading the lyrics sometime and get it right . . .


On-ward Christain Soldiers
http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh575.sht

1. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
forward into battle see his banners go!
Refrain:
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
with the cross of Jesus going on before.

2. At the sign of triumph Satan's host doth flee;
on then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell's foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
brothers, lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.
(Refrain)

3. Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
one in hope and doctrine, one in charity.
(Refrain)

4. Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,
but the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;
we have Christ's own promise, and that cannot fail.
(Refrain)

5. Onward then, ye people, join our happy throng,
blend with ours your voices in the triumph song.
Glory, laud, and honor unto Christ the King,
this through countless ages men and angels sing.
(Refrain)
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Apr 19, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
Klimmer likes to use the Bible to justify his belief system. And then justifies his belief system on the Bible.

Stupid? Yes. Will he ever stop? No.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 19, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
It is obvious you did not read my post earlier on threats. Klimmer
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 19, 2012 - 04:11pm PT
Klimmer: It seems you're both US veterans, am I right? Right-wing and can't tolerate others thinking outside the box. Sad really.

Veteran, check. Right-wing? Hmmmm, this is exactly what I'm talking about - how on the third planet from the sun would you derive that assertion / belief from anything I've ever written in this thread or on ST for that matter?

Klimmer: Seems you can't fathom or stand the thought that people want to talk about interesting ideas and beliefs, and like to ask deep questions, regardless how "out-there" it all sounds like and seems. Many of us don't see eye-to-eye, but at least I'm being respectful. Most of us who are talking about these ideas and beliefs are. Those who think these ideas and beliefs are nuts, are intolerant, unbelievably rude, throwing out ad hominem attacks constantly, and threatening.

As I've said, I've probably downed more scifi and fantasy than you have, believe the universe is positively teaming with intelligent life, and am completely open to ideas and deep questions, regardless how "out-there" they may seem.

Where I start having a hard time is when those "out there" ideas start making the transition into shared beliefs supported by a circular loop of manufactured, self-reinforcing 'evidence' which then begins to reverberate until making the inevitable leap to conspiracies. At that point it starts becoming dangerous and just another form of cult. And again, this paranormal business, relative to the public, is done exactly the way indigenous genocide is conducted and the direct cause of incidents like the Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate. In fact, your entire deal is virtually indistinguishable from the latter two other than in 'execution'.

So, as someone who can do a short drive to see our nation's indigenous genocide still hard at work and who did some work with Leo Ryan you'll forgive me if I take this stuff seriously.

Klimmer: You can sit-back and think it's all as serious as someone talking about Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, or Leprechauns. I'm not threatening anyone. The message of Jesus Christ isn't threatening.

I find it more serious because most folks don't really believe in Santa Claus. The Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, and Joseph Di Mambro weren't threatening either - at first.

Klimmer: Emmanuel's message is about peace, love, and hope. UFOs/ET are a part of this discussion, because the Good Book has a great deal to say about them. Just watch Ancient Aliens on The History Channel if you don't think so.

It's entertainment fiction and after a good start the History Channel has morphed into joke the same way Oprah's network did once she sold it. And that the History Channel has received withering criticism for chasing ratings with paranormal fiction is no surprise. What is a sad surprise is how many uneducated saps there are sucking this down like so much sticky syrup and pablum.

Klimmer: Perhaps talking about truth and trying to wrestle it out intellectually you feel threatened by that? So then simply don't click on this thread. Go away and leave others alone. If you and Lost continue doing what you do, both of you are just coming across as intolerant and narrow minded right-wing bullies, and dangerous ones at that.

"Talking about truth" - that leap sums it all up and is exactly how genocides and mass suicides get rolling. Actual common sense (let alone intellectual) criticism appears to be the only thing really threatening in this thread. Again, it may all seem like harmless fun to you, but from media and psychological perspectives your whole shtick here is indistinguishable from the Tea Party, right-wing and fundamentalist extremists, and your coupling of scifi with religion the very hallmark of various mass suicide cults.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 19, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
Klimmer;

So I am assuming you agree with Ted Nuggent saying: "We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November," Nugent said of the Obama administration.

Is that freedom of speech, I guess rape, murder is ok as well. OPPs that's not speech that is an act. Thinking it and saying it is different.

I think you have rightwing mixed up or do not understand the idea or thoughts.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
You said in your own made-up and make-believe world . . .

Apr 19, 2012 - 02:13pm PT
Klimmer;

So I am assuming you agree with Ted Nuggent saying: "We need to ride into that battlefield and chop their heads off in November," Nugent said of the Obama administration.

Is that freedom of speech, I guess rape, murder is ok as well. OPPs that's not speech that is an act. Thinking it and saying it is different.

I think you have rightwing mixed up or do not understand the idea or thoughts

What the heck is OPPs???

You can't threaten people with physical harm in speech. That is not freedom of speech. TN is a whack job. Your dribble is very similiarly scary and way whack.



What I said . . .

I have no more choice than to send-off an email to Chris Mac and alert him to your very obvious threats. You are a very, very scary person.

The threats in this country come from people who think and do as you do.

Last time I looked we have a Constitution and Bill of Rights. We have freedom of speech and freedom of religion. We do not have freedom to threaten anyone, even if they differ in philosophy, religion, thought process, or what have you. It's called tolerance. The True Christian faith is peaceful to the point of loving your enemies and doing good to people who persecute you. It never picks up a weapon to do harm to others.

You've crossed the line many multiple times here on ST.



How can you honestly keep spouting the same 100% USDA Bovine Dung, over and over again? Do you not know how to read english? Do you really think I would ever agree with what Radical Right-Wing Ted Nugent ever has to say? Are you serious? I'm a Veterans for Peace Member, Amnesty International Member, an ACLU member, and a Sierra Club member. Can you really be serious????

It's like I'm talking to a wall. A very dense wall.

What I said . . .

Seems you can't fathom or stand the thought that people want to talk about interesting ideas and beliefs, and like to ask deep questions, regardless how "out-there" it all sounds like and seems. Many of us don't see eye-to-eye, but at least I'm being respectful. Most of us who are talking about these ideas and beliefs are. Those who think these ideas and beliefs are nuts, are intolerant, unbelievably rude, throwing out ad hominem attacks constantly, and threatening.

I'm not doing that to anyone. You can sit-back and think it's all as serious as someone talking about Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, or Leprechauns. So be it. That's your opinion. I'm not threatening anyone. The message of Jesus Christ isn't threatening. Emmanuel's message is about peace, love, and hope. UFOs/ET are a part of this discussion, because the Good Book has a great deal to say about them. Just watch Ancient Aliens on The History Channel if you don't think so.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 19, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
When people say to me “Are you threating me”, I respond by saying “no”. They then say well what is it? I respond by say “Making it a promise”. They can’t throw you in jail for a promise, a threat yes.

As for your “I'm a Veterans for Peace Member, Amnesty International Member, an ACLU member, and a Sierra Club member. Can you really be serious????

Just having a card or paying dues does not count. When do you take the time to go to one of their meetings and speak up and deliver your rants? Seems to me all your time is searching the truth for one or two people to agree with you.

Still haven’t answered that question as of yet.

Klimmer play your game, you have the right to say anything you want but limited in some, you are wasting my time on someone who has a narcissistic personality but who am I to say; maybe you are a genius with an IQ of 140+ or just gifted.

Hey did you find the island by the way.

GC said it before on he is right just feeding you so you need to leave you alone, maybe then you will go away.

Fat chance
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
As I've said, I've probably downed more scifi and fantasy than you have, believe the universe is positively teaming with intelligent life, and am completely open to ideas and deep questions, regardless how "out-there" they may seem.

Where I start having a hard time is when those "out there" ideas start making the transition into shared beliefs supported by a circular loop of manufactured, self-reinforcing 'evidence' which then begins to reverberate until making the inevitable leap to conspiracies. At that point it starts becoming dangerous and just another form of cult. And again, this paranormal business, relative to the public, is done exactly the way indigenous genocide is conducted and the direct cause of incidents like the Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate. In fact, your entire deal is virtually indistinguishable from the latter two other than in 'execution'.


HJ,

Huh????

So you believe the Universe is teaming with life.

But others who have evidence and know that "they" are here already are whack and that people thinking this way will lead to death camp cults?

Really?

Crazy stuff there HJ. Really crazy.




Please debunk Leslie Kean's book:

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record [Paperback] Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334874911&sr=8-1


So from your circle of reasoning we can then assume that Generals, Pilots, NASA astronauts, and Government Officials who know the truth and have witnessed these phenomenon and have the other collaborating physical evidence of UFOs/ETs being here are going to start death camp cults? Is this right HJ? Do I have your circle of reasoning correct?

Maybe we should just round them all up and put them in prison or worse, huh? They are at a minimum commiting thought crimes. We just can't have that. (sarcasm)

War is peace. Lies are Truth. Where have I heard all that before? Oh, yea, George Orwell's 1984.

Please lay off the right-wing hallucinogenics.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 07:05pm PT
Apr 19, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
When people say to me “Are you threating me”, I respond by saying “no”. They then say well what is it? I respond by say “Making it a promise”. They can’t throw you in jail for a promise, a threat yes.


Lost,

So you are saying you are making it a promise to carry out your threat, right? Well, that goes waaaaaay beyond threat level.

You are truly bent and really, really wrong. Sad.





I'm just going to have to ignore you and HJ.


Note to self:

Just ignore "Lost" and "HJ." They have serious emotional issues and can't tolerate anyone with different thoughts, religious faith or faith at all, or those curious about the natural world around them who ask questions and seek for truth. They are both absolutely intolerant. They both have a radical right-wing bent being former military, and are prone to threats of a violent nature.

Duly noted. So be it. Ignore them.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Apr 19, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
"maybe you are a genius with an IQ of 140+ or just gifted"

No, to the above more like 55-70. Did you cheat on your teachers credentials?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 19, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
klim, c'mon out to the gordonfest saturday night. at least dr. F has promised to be nice. he's not as lean as he looked in the bouldering guide, but if we stick close to his shirttails, he'll keep the peace. i'll show you two V0's and a V1 i developed with my clients last year.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 19, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
But others who have evidence and know that "they" are here...

Again with the huge leap - there is zero 'evidence' of any kind and no one who "knows" has ever produced a shred of 'evidence' other than hearsay.

The Cash-Landrum incident is a perfect example of a case where a plethora of a case where on the surface there should be an endless supply of physical evidence of thermal ground effects, effects of ionizing radiation, radar tracks from IAH 19 miles away, etc., etc. In reality, there was miraculously never more than hearsay and the claimed and observed medical conditions were entirely consistent with ionizing radiation exposure.

The whole run of the NIDSci is another example - never produced anything of any substance of any kind that wasn't just a rehash of unoriginal material plagiarized from elsewhere. In short, there has never been a shred of undeniable, uncontroversial, obvious, persistent, straightforward, repeatedly observable evidence - ever , for any form of UFO or paranormal activity. Get some, put it on display at the Smithsonian or your backyard and I'll be a believer.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Tony and Dr. F,

Thanks, but I can't.

It would probably be fun, but its my B-day and the kids are excited about going to Disneyland, seriously, that's the truth. If I blew that big event off, I would be on the poop list for sure and for along time.

The Gordonfest shouldn't be planned on Muir's B-day, not a good day for me, my B-day too :-)

Sounds like it will be fun though. Crank some way-rads and don't drink too much.

I don't think I would invite "HJ" and "Lost" though. They might show-up with superior fire-power and actually want to use it, looking for anyone thinking outside the box. How dare anyone think beyond what "the State" (aka Big Brother) allows. We just can't have that. (sarcasm)


Edit:

HJ,

Read Leslie Kean's book.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:04pm PT
klim, c'mon out to the gordonfest saturday night. at least dr. F has promised to be nice. he's not as lean as he looked in the bouldering guide, but if we stick close to his shirttails, he'll keep the peace. i'll show you two V0's and a V1 i developed with my clients last year.

Really, both you dudes are as crazy as the day is long... but come on out. You got no worries, I'll buy you some beer, Dr. F will watch your back and I'll watch your front. Anyone even looks like they might want to lay a finger on you (which will never happen cuz they are all keyboard pussies) I'll stomp their guts out. If you guys decide to beat me up, then all bets are off and I'm calling Dr. F to protect me.

Seriously, it will be fun and a good time. Bring your ex'es!
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 19, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
klim, i think you take your discussions seriously here. meeting in person adds some real dimension to it. craig and i gave each other a little autobiography last year and i think it made a world of difference. you learn not to throw rocks at someone who is real and you know a bit about where they're coming from.

you're giving us martha excuses. mary would be at the party. john muir wants you to come too. he was the premier rock climber of his day. bring kids, todd will change diapers. disneyland is n.w.o. keep your kids away from there.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 20, 2012 - 02:03am PT
I've been to one of the Gordon Ranch throw-downs and the crew that rallies around the family is as good as ST has to offer - even Russ (though Suze is the business). Any time you have a chance to hit a ranch party up I'd jump at it and besides, as fearsome as I am person, I won't be there.

News today - a real interestellar travel mystery:

http://phys.org/news/2012-04-team-anomaly.html

Mimi

climber
Apr 20, 2012 - 02:09am PT
Klimsey, if anyone even tries to lay a tinfoil hat on your sorry ass, I'll fly down there myself and fukemup. Got that! Be there, aloha.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 20, 2012 - 08:28am PT
as fearsome as I am person, I won't be there.

whew!

if anyone even tries to lay a tinfoil hat on your sorry ass

um, mimi, that's not where you put a tinfoil hat.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 20, 2012 - 09:04am PT
Looking to apprentice to a skinwalker, preferably Navajo, but Ute will do I guess...prefer the giant bullet-proof wolf form , but will settle for weasel shapes and speed running. Thanks.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 20, 2012 - 09:26am PT
loose talk about skinwalkers doesn't play in indian country, sandstone. don't you know better than that?

i advise you to read the book. at least you noticed that the nickname is a bit anomalous. there's a reason.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 20, 2012 - 09:38am PT
The indigenous had much deeper ties to the earth than the wasichu could ever imagine. I've read the accounts, and don't deny that strange things have happened there. I keep an open mind. Hell, I like the idea of skinwalkers prowling in the dark. Keeps things interesting. I just don't want any of that corpse powder blown in my face, unless corpse powder is some kick-ass strain of ganj coming at me from the business end of a bong, ya know? Speaking of the Navajo, have you ever read Blood and Thunder, by Hampton Sides?
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 20, 2012 - 09:49am PT
yes, blood and thunder--a good chunk of history there.

hunt for the skinwalker is divided into three parts. the first is as entertaining a ghost/horror yarn as you could ask for. then it all starts to die down in the second part, when the NIDS investigation begins. there are still enough "special effects" to keep your interest, but not enough to begin to satisfy the ignorant skeptics who notice that no one managed to cram an alien into a test tube, and therefore declare the effort a failure. if you stay for the third act, you'll find it boring as hell, if you don't pay much attention to science. to me, it's the most intelligent speculation to date about the paranormal, and you will find that kelleher has much credentialed company.
new world order-

climber
Apr 20, 2012 - 10:10am PT
disneyland is n.w.o. keep your kids away from there.

So very true! Klimmer, if you're allowing your kids to watch television, play video games, want for Disneyland, etc., then, well, they're being programmed.

There is a reason they're called television programs, after all.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 20, 2012 - 10:14am PT
The Utes called the Navajo "Head-pounders" because of their habit of beating the skulls of their enemies in. No doubt the bad blood between the two would result in the rise of something like the skinwalkers. A little psychological warfare against a hated enemy. However, that is between the indigenous. whitey has no business interfering with such things. We wouldn't understand what we were seeing.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 20, 2012 - 10:21am PT
you still don't have the story straight. read hillerman. you'll learn more from him about the navajo than hampton sides.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Apr 20, 2012 - 10:31am PT
Hillerman's Skinwalkers was a good book. I'd like to read more in that series, now that you brought it up. That was a few years and many books ago.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 20, 2012 - 10:39am PT
i think i've read every book hillerman wrote. i certainly learned to love the navajo. he was made an honorary member of the tribe, but his dealing with skinwalker aspects makes him a bit controversial even among them. kelleher makes note of this.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
From the thread on mining . . .

What is "Mined"?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1667294&msg=1675968#msg1675968


Nov 26, 2011 - 09:37am PT
I think after we answer the question is there life off of Earth, on Mars, or some other place in our Solar System we will then be gearing up for natural resources. Its inevitable. In fact, I think we have already started.

I think we will at the least find microbial life on Mars and then even contemporarily. In fact, I think we already did back in the 70s with the Viking Missions. NASA and the US government is just too scared to admit it, or they have other nefarious reasons for delaying the truth. Read Dr. Gilbert V. Levin's (co-author) book, Mars The Living Planet.

Mars: The Living Planet [Bargain Price] [Hardcover]
Barry E. DiGregorio (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Living-Planet-Barry-DiGregorio/dp/B005ZOFKI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322330667&sr=8-1

Dr. Gilbert Levin's website:
http://gillevin.com/mars.htm

It’s Time to Realize There Is Life on Mars
Gilbert V. Levin
http://gillevin.com/Mars/EARTHComment_8=9-10.pdf





Remember, the Asteroid Belt is loaded with incredible resources (see NASA qoute posted before). You think we aren't going to go out there and get some? There is a race to the Moon now between many countries. Its gonna happen. And yes, there is a plethora of Gold out there and many other strategic and useful metals for all kinds of technology and clean renewable energy production. We need it in-situ for living off Earth primarily first, but I think eventually natural resources will come home to Earth also. It just makes sense once we figure out how to do it as cost effective as possible.

I think we already have the technology to do it. A very well known AF officer in the know once said, "We have the technology to take ET back home already."

We don't have to keep soiling and trashing our homeworld. No one is gonna miss a few asteroids. We need resources. Its gonna happen. I think sooner than later.


The MSL is on its way to Mars this morning (11-26-2011) . . .

NASA launches super-size Mars rover to red planet
By MARCIA DUNN | AP – 21 mins ago.
http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-launches-super-size-mars-rover-red-planet-150436037.html

Many cameras on-board the MSL are designed and built by Mike Malin’s MSSS company here in San Diego. Mike is a really, really interesting man. I wonder what secrets he knows about Mars. No one else on the face of Earth has more images of Mars and up close and in high resolution. And he spends unbelievable amounts of time looking over them with magnifiers and perhaps in stereo. The things he must have seen already . . .

Mike Malin: The Mars observer
How the reclusive Mike Malin changed the way that scientists view Mars.
Eric Hand
21 November 2011
http://www.nature.com/news/mike-malin-the-mars-observer-1.9402



Well, seems other scientists have looked into the Mars Viking Labeled Release Experiment Data further and they have come to conclude that we found life on Mars back in the 1970s . . .


Mars Viking Robots 'Found Life'
Mathematical analysis adds to growing body of work questioning the negative results of a life-detection experiment 36 years ago.

http://news.discovery.com/space/mars-life-viking-landers-discovery-120412.html


I think Dr. Gilbert Levin will be vindicated.




Linking this thread to this one . . .

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1807660/Hey-thats-MY-gold-up-there-OT
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 25, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
so--how was disneyland?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2012 - 08:44pm PT
Tony,

Thanks for asking. Didn't happen. My Toyota truck broke a fan belt. Replaced all the belts. We had to postpone at the last minute. We'll go in May now instead.

Sounds like you guys had a good time in JT.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 25, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 25, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
...is just too scared to admit it, or they have other nefarious reasons for delaying the truth.

That's moronic - most scientists just want more conclusive data.

It should also be noted that as promising as the new analysis method is, it can't yet consistently characterize life on Earth and many scientists would like to see it able to do that before being applied to Mars data.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 25, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
that mars talk is pretty small potatoes compared to the other issues here.

salla mentions it on his far-out website, which is nevertheless often newsy. here's the one that caught my eye:

http://www.exopolitics.org/Exo-Comment-117.htm

scroll towards the bottom and check the breathy "national geographic" newsreel where a bimbotic blonde interviews jabba the hut. i wonder if dr. F thinks she's hot.

Didn't happen. My Toyota truck broke a fan belt. Replaced all the belts. We had to postpone at the last minute. We'll go in May now instead.

that was a karmic happening. NWO and i are telling you to keep your kids away from there.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Apr 25, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
Planetary bias will avail you not.
We don't need planets anymore. Evolve, DAMN you!!!!!!!
Let's get out there. Pioneers?


Maybe.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Apr 25, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
Planetary bias will avail you not.
We don't need planets anymore. Evolve, DAMN you!!!!!!!
Let's get out there. Pioneers?


Maybe.


You know I really think that climbers, and those who are like us who like to take risks, and are very much into exploring, doing first ascents etc., and are also very fit, would make excellent extra-terrestrial (off-Earth) astronauts/asteroid miners.

Just think. We do the most radical things imaginable just for fun, putting our lives at risk at times even for no money, and we have keen senses of adventure and an extreme sense of wanting to know what is out-there, and we have a very good hard-work ethic when it comes to adventure and expeditions.

(Actually, I think were all ADHD, a condition which has a lot of really good benefits, and a few drawbacks too ;-) )

The first ascent possibilities just within our Solar System are endless.
edejom

Boulder climber
Butte, America
Apr 27, 2012 - 02:11am PT
bump--just for the number...



edit: -)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 27, 2012 - 02:21am PT
Asteroid Mining Plans Revealed by Planetary Resources, Inc. (with video)

"Planetary Resources, Inc. announced today its plan to mine Near-Earth Asteroids (NEAs) for raw materials, ranging from water to precious metals. Through the development of cost-effective exploration technologies, the company is poised to initiate prospecting missions targeting resource-rich asteroids that are easily accessible."

http://spaceref.biz/2012/04/asteroid-mining-plans-revealed-by-planetary-resources-inc.html

View our multi-media news release with photos and video: http://prn.to/PlanetaryR

Resource extraction from asteroids will deliver multiple benefits to humanity and grow to be valued at tens of billions of dollars annually. The effort will tap into the high concentration of precious metals found on asteroids and provide a sustainable supply to the ever-growing population on Earth.

A single 500-meter platinum-rich asteroid contains the equivalent of all the Platinum Group Metals mined in history. "Many of the scarce metals and minerals on Earth are in near-infinite quantities in space. As access to these materials increases, not only will the cost of everything from microelectronics to energy storage be reduced, but new applications for these abundant elements will result in important and novel applications," said Peter H. Diamandis, M.D., Co-Founder and Co-Chairman, Planetary Resources, Inc.

Additionally, water-rich NEAs will serve as "stepping stones" for deep space exploration, providing space-sourced fuel and water to orbiting depots. Accessing water resources in space will revolutionize exploration and make space travel dramatically more economical.

"Water is perhaps the most valuable resource in space. Accessing a water-rich asteroid will greatly enable the large-scale exploration of the solar system. In addition to supporting life, water will also be separated into oxygen and hydrogen for breathable air and rocket propellant," said Eric Anderson, Co-Founder and Co-Chairman, Planetary Resources, Inc.

Of the approximately 9,000 known NEAs, there are more than 1,500 that are energetically as easy to reach as the Moon. The capability to characterize NEAs is on the critical path for Planetary Resources. To that end, the company has developed the first line in its family of deep-space prospecting spacecraft, the Arkyd-100 Series. The spacecraft will be used in low-Earth orbit and ultimately help prioritize the first several NEA targets for the company's follow-on Arkyd-300 Series NEA swarm expeditions.

Chris Lewicki, President and Chief Engineer, said "Our mission is not only to expand the world's resource base, but we want to increase people's access to, and understanding of, our planet and solar system by developing capable and cost-efficient systems."

"The promise of Planetary Resources is to apply commercial innovation to space exploration. They are developing cost-effective, production-line spacecraft that will visit near-Earth asteroids in rapid succession, increasing our scientific knowledge of these bodies and enabling the economic development of the resources they contain," said Tom Jones, Ph.D., veteran NASA astronaut, planetary scientist and Planetary Resources, Inc. advisor.

Planetary Resources is financed by industry-launching visionaries, including Google CEO Larry Page and Ross Perot, Jr., Chairman of Hillwood and The Perot Group, who are committed to expanding the world's resource base so that humanity can continue to grow and prosper:

 Eric E. Schmidt, Ph.D., Executive Chairman of Google, Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) and Planetary Resources, Inc. investor: "The pursuit of resources drove the discovery of America and opened the West. The same drivers still hold true for opening the space frontier. Expanding the resource base for humanity is important for our future."

 Ram Shriram, Founder of Sherpalo, Google Board of Directors founding member and Planetary Resources, Inc. investor: "I see the same potential in Planetary Resources as I did in the early days of Google."

 Charles Simonyi, Ph.D., Chairman of Intentional Software Corporation and Planetary Resources, Inc. investor: "The commercialization of space began with communications satellites and is developing for human spaceflight. The next logical step is to begin the innovative development of resources from space. I'm proud to be part of this effort."

The company's advisors include film maker and explorer James Cameron; General T. Michael Moseley (Ret.); Sara Seager, Ph.D.; Mark Sykes, Ph.D.; and David Vaskevitch.

Founded in 2009 by Eric Anderson and Peter H. Diamandis, M.D., Planetary Resources, Inc. is establishing a new paradigm for resource utilization that will bring the solar system within humanity's economic sphere of influence by enabling low-cost robotic exploration and eventual commercial development of asteroids. For more information, please visit

http://www.PlanetaryResources.com
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 27, 2012 - 02:46am PT
Interesting, but I find the reverse equally true...

Expectation of extraterrestrial life built more on optimism than evidence, study finds
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2012 - 08:29am PT
Just for inspiration . . .


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 29, 2012 - 02:28am PT
http://news.yahoo.com/odds-finding-alien-life-boosted-billions-habitable-worlds-122420222.html

A new estimate of the number of habitable planets orbiting the most common type of stars in our galaxy could have huge consequences for the search for life.

According to a recent study, tens of billions of planets around red dwarfs are likely capable of containing liquid water, dramatically increasing the potential to find signs of life somewhere other than Earth.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 29, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
klimmer & tom: with due respect for both of you fellows--you can't have it both ways.

either we live in an empty corner of the galaxy, far from the nearest intelligent life, and we have to try to get excited about our space neighborhood a la "new frontier" which died with JFK, or we're up against a way disturbing reality involving the cover-up of ephemeral and paranormal phenomena which are just too well documented to be ignored.

if you're trying to bring the healyjes around by sounding scientifically "reasonable", ain't gonna happen.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Apr 29, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
Just think. We do the most radical things imaginable just for fun, putting our lives at risk at times even for no money, and we have keen senses of adventure and an extreme sense of wanting to know what is out-there, and we have a very good hard-work ethic when it comes to adventure and expeditions.

Gosh. I had no idea "We" was so awesome.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 30, 2012 - 09:38pm PT
The world is so full of a number of things, I'm sure we should all be as happy as kings! - Robert Louis Stevenson

I do find some of these SuperTopo threads to be very interesting conversations with an appropriate cross-section of intelligent points of view being discussed. I am especially appreciative of contributors who are much more knowledgeable than me on subjects where at one time I might have even considered myself something of an expert.

However in my opinion, most everything we think we know is probably wrong, and is based upon tiny glimmers of information within the incredible vastness of the universe.

From my perspective, the most amazing thing about humans is that we have such a large consensus of general agreement about so many things; where we really don't understand enough to barely form a preliminary opinion about many of them. Some of the opinions expressed here may be much better researched or more enlightened or myopic or biased than others. I don't see that hardly stands up to the perspective of the huge learning curve surrounding us all.

At our very best we are all like the old story about five blind men examining an elephant. Surprise surprise that one viewpoint appears foolishly inappropriate from some of the other viewpoints. Not to say that every contradictory opinion on every subject is correct...not hardly! However it is very likely there are overarching realities we have not even imagined, that bring together some of the most incredibly diverse observations. We certainly have historical examples of that and can be even more certain that we will see others.

Especially we tend to be so full of ourselves and our self-styled vast intelligence; as to overlook the fact that our local flavor of intelligent discourse is such a recent phenomena in our local time/space as to be barely equivalent to a flashlight on the surface of the sun. However we are each also privileged here as we are exposed to a number of very important points of view expressed passionately and eloquently.

We might all be the wiser for easing off on our defense of any particular viewpoint and listening all the more carefully to observations from each contributor. This would probably reduce some of the conversational friction and possibly help lubricate the learning curve for each of us.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Apr 30, 2012 - 09:49pm PT
it was stevenson who said that, not kipling. stevenson wrote about happy, boyish, swashbuckling adventures. kipling had a taste of war and empire and was boiled a tad harder.

Happy Thought

The world is so full of a number of things,
I'm sure we should all be as happy as kings.

perhaps one closer to your sentiments, tom, might be "god's in his heaven, all's right with the world". i'm afraid my own delving into these disturbing areas for the past year turns most of that on its ear. and your "vast universe" itself has become dwarfed by considerations from physics which seem to tie in both to paranormal phenomena and indications from archaeology that strange things have been going on for a long time. "multiverse" is the new speculative, and the ETH is being replaced by an IDH. the vastness of "our" universe may merely be a distraction.

in short, the world is not what we think it to be, and even worse, we're being messed with in ways we can only begin to fathom. i don't think it justifies the usual sense of awe we are encouraged to indulge in. i think we should be starting to figure it out, and calling a few bluffs as well.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 02:16am PT
From my Christian perspective . . .

There is real hope for our future.

We are messed with. There is real evil in this world that means us harm. And it will get darker before the light.

If I only dwell on the negative, then I'll get depressed. So, I acknowledge the negative, that it's gonna happen, but I long and hope for the future. I really like to think about the future, post Apocalypse, The Millennium, the 1000 years of peace and prosperity. We will be going all over the Solar System at that time. Natural Resources and free-clean renewable energy will be abundant and plentiful. The world will heal. We will turn things around for the better. We will do things GOD's way.

As they say, its darkest before the dawn.

Hey, I have a book I can read that gives me 20-20 vision into our past and into our future. GOD was brilliant this way. We can overcome. Everyone can read it too. It's widely available the World over.

I agree with the optimism of these following DVDs and books for our future, but they fail to understand the very real evil that is present on this Earth that works against us and that doesn't want to see us succeed, and who exactly is this entity and spirit that works against us (Lucifer, the anti-Christ, and his minion fallen angels and the people on Earth he fools into following him and his evil ways). Like I said, The Good Book even gives us a timeline and what is to come, and to be ready for it. But we ultimately will succeed with GOD's help, with Jesus Christ's help. It will get darker before the dawn, but it will get better one day.

So, we just keep doing what we know is right in our lives, in our personal lives, that which we do have full control over. It's what we can do at a minimum. If we have the power and ability to do more, then we should.


THRIVE:
http://www.thrivemovement.com/

(Official Trailer) THRIVE: What On Earth Will It Take?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OibqdwHyZxk

(Official Movie) THRIVE: What On Earth Will It Take?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s&feature=relmfu




Abundance: The Future Is Better Than You Think [Hardcover]
Peter H. Diamandis (Author), Steven Kotler (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Abundance-Future-Better-Than-Think/dp/1451614217/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1IXY4QRJEN1Y1&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G



From Tom's previous post . . .

Asteroid Mining Plans Revealed by Planetary Resources, Inc. (with video)

"Planetary Resources, Inc. announced today its plan to mine Near-Earth Asteroids (NEAs) for raw materials, ranging from water to precious metals. Through the development of cost-effective exploration technologies, the company is poised to initiate prospecting missions targeting resource-rich asteroids that are easily accessible."

http://spaceref.biz/2012/04/asteroid-mining-plans-revealed-by-planetary-resources-inc.html

View our multi-media news release with photos and video: http://prn.to/PlanetaryR


We will get there. It will happen . . .







The Millennium, 1000 Years of Peace and Prosperity . . .

The World Ahead: What Will It Be Like?
Roderick C. Meredith
http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/booklets/the-world-ahead-what-will-it-be-like

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/media/booklets/wa.pdf
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 1, 2012 - 02:48am PT
thanks, Tony



i think several people here are subject to the famous quote from Hamlet:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. - Shakespeare

The phrase has come to mean that one can "insist so passionately about something not being true that people suspect the opposite of what one is saying. - Wiki

it appears to be so important to some people's personal well being, to be right about a chosen point of view, that you have to keep building an edifice of assumed evidence in support of that conviction; rather than to simply admit that we honestly may not have enough evidence to be certain

some of this endless argumentation has simply become tedious



it is a rather nice and comfortable viewpoint to believe that our reality is solid and explainable within the bounds of some assumed level of accepted understanding

unfortunately there appears to be too much evidence that this comfortable point of view contains strong elements of uncertainty

it is also very interesting and challenging to seek to understand extensive reports of unusual phenomena

unfortunately any attempts to do this tend to be attacked by people who are more comfortable declaring all such observations of unusual phenomena to be delusional


seems like we are surrounded by so many accusations of mythology that only a fool will lay claim to a conviction of understanding

there are no clean faces in a food fight


how about if each of you with a strong conviction for a particular point of view, swap sides at the table (just in the interest of due diligence and amusement); and use your considerable intellect to generate supporting arguments in favor of the other point of view...

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 1, 2012 - 10:04am PT
klimmer, you are pulled in so many directions here i can only give you my sympathy. some do protest too much, but some argue not so much to convince others as to convince themselves.

tom raises the subject of mythology. i did a couple years of grad school at ucla in the early 80s. my interest then, as now, was folk music. ucla has a prominent program in ethnomusicology, but they shunted me over to their now defunct folklore and mythology program, and for a couple years i looked at academic mythology out of the corner of my eye, wishing walter starkie was still around to play the gypsy violin.

who are the great mythologists? claude levi-strauss seemed to be on every professor's lips. mircea eliade came to visit once. nobody liked joseph campbell, whom i discovered a couple years after i left.

mythology is a difficult pursuit. you have to take all the religions and beliefs of the world and attempt to make scientific sense of them. there aren't many who try. i think campbell was about the best, but, in light of "the phenomenon", as jacques vallee has dubbed it, the entire approach must be re-thought.

academic mythology is based on the premise that all of our aspiring beliefs derive from within us. as campbell put it, "myth comes from our bodies". but this interpretation assumes that humans have evolved quietly on our "backwater" planet over the past 2.5 billion years. this evolution has apparently been exponential, taking giant leaps like the powers of 10--in the archaic, at the cambrian, in the post-cretaceous, and then in the recent. and then in the ancient world, then the modern one, then the 20th century. we tell ourselves these developments have occurred wonderfully "from within", but there is much evidence which indicates otherwise.

levi-strauss and campbell are mythologists in the vein of scientific orthodoxy. they take that "isolationist" perspective, that earth is merely a physical backwater, that life evolved here as sort of a fluke. eliade, on the other hand, followed a course similar to jacques vallee, and even carl sagan at one point. he turned to writing fiction, a better way of dealing with the truth than in nonfiction books and scientific papers. but don't kid yourself--it isn't "normal" fiction.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2012 - 10:24am PT
Tom and Tony,

You both can try to dismiss it all and say it's a myth. The Good Book is just made-up and GOD (if there is a GOD) is mythical and mostly made-up too. We don't know what the truth is. I'm just gonna sit on my hands and be dumb-founded and be agnostic about it all. Gee, what else can I do?

But when The Good Book says A, then B, then C, and then D, . . . and then Z will happen and it does just as The Good Book and GOD said it would, then what are you going to say and do?

GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"

And I'm gonna say, "What he said. Why didn't you listen?"
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 1, 2012 - 10:30am PT
The funny thing about mythology is in the way a person can look at it see it and accept it in other cultures and earlier humans then deny any of the of the psychology of it applies to them personally.

Can a person both go to church on Sundays and study mythology rationally and without bias? Does their bias lead them to conclusions that early mythology is actually a reflection of facts? Or do they simply ignore all of the psychology that might suggest they they too are falling for the same old story that all of those old cultures fell for when it came to their mythology?

The study of modern mythology would be interesting. There are living subjects that are clearly wrong about how God and the universe works yet have a huge amount of history and mythology telling them that they are right. I hung out with a guy in India who had made a deal with one of his gods. He needed something and was willing to make a sacrifice to a god to get it. He didn't seem at all hesitant in his belief. Of course being vegetarian 6 days a week as a sacrifice seemed a little insufficient to me.

Dave
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 1, 2012 - 10:31am PT
don't you just love to paint yourself into that scenario? but you'll die before it happens, klim, just like every other can't-wait-for-it-all-to-be-over christian of the past 2,000 years.

the problem is, buddy, you're closing your mind to material which doesn't fit into your picture. in that, you're ignoring many keys to figuring this out--just as your detractors here ignore just about everything.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 1, 2012 - 10:32am PT
GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leasure in black and white to read that explians it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"

He gave some other people books to read too. I'm not sure which one to use. How did you pick one or did someone pick it for you when you were born?

Dave
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 1, 2012 - 10:57am PT
klimmer, "the phenomenon" has certain definitive characteristics. yes, it is deceptive. but, as i said before, your god is deceptive as well, never forthright with the human race as to its real status, always manipulative, and more often the source of conflict than of harmony or clarity. consider your god as part of the phenomenon, and the phenomenon begins to make more sense.

we recently discussed hunt for the skinwalker. i found it interesting to compare that with material which derives from the bradshaw ranch near sedona, arizona, in a couple of books in which tom dongo participated. very similar material, but, ironically, responsive to the humans who perceived it in somewhat different ways than occurred at the ranch in utah. that's an aspect you're not considering, but which can be seen throughout this "mythic" material, both within and outside of your bible. there's a dance going on, and it's different for each of the dancers.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 1, 2012 - 11:07am PT
...just as your detractors here ignore just about everything.

Ignoring the ark on the moon seems justified since there is no way to determine if it isn't just a photoshop hoax. I believe in the conspiracy of foil-hat-guys telling me this is true just for fun, or because they are crazy, as much as believe in any conspiracy to cover it up.

Ignoring the Bible is as easy as ignoring to Qua-ran if you have no vested interest in either. I would ignore the Bible as easily as I would ignore Egyptian Hieroglyphs, which is to say, I ignore neither of them! They both hold the same weight to someone without bias.

There are even book about there being no God although there can be no evidence of that. Because of this simple scientific fact that you cannot prove something false, no weight is given to any "proof" that there is no god.

I do come very close to ignoring people who say they hear voices in their head but only as far as that being any sort of proof of God. Too many people hear voices that are not God who are in mental institutions so head-voices cannot be a trusted source of information.

Prophecy is just too vague and too often wrong. Any that comes true is certainly taken at face value as being evidence of God and none of it is just ignored.

So there is lots of stuff that seems to get ignored but it is just not taken as a singular thing or a singular event. Take in all of the information about mythology, God, aliens, and materialism, and it's all really confusing and strange but no clear path shows itself to the person who was not trained from birth to accept one set of information over all others.

Dave

P.S. I have prayed and I have meditated but have done neither with any deep belief that I was doing the absolute right thing. Maybe that 100% belief is required for it to work and I will certainly accept that my shortcoming of belief is what keeps me from spiritual enlightenment. then again, I don't belief that statement 100% either. Ah the life of a cynic.


Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 1, 2012 - 11:27am PT
if you're a serious scientist or scholar, rector, you don't ignore anything. what you ignore, you ignore at your peril.

as i've pointed out previously, there are many others who have weighed in on strange lunar phenomena. klimmer's little "ark" picture is the tip of the iceberg, and the reports go far enough back, as into the collections of charles fort, that they must be taken seriously. unless, of course, you choose to ignore. but the word "ignorant" doesn't imply stupidity or lack of native intellect. it implies a willful closing of the mind.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 3, 2012 - 03:53am PT
My dad was a serious scholar of the bible. 'The Interpreter's Bible' is the size of Encyclopedia Britannica and shows multiple interpretations and commentaries for each phrase of the bible. His copy was heavily bookmarked and annotated. I spent many hours of my life listening to his sermons and discussions.

I was also married for ten years to a scholarly Jewish woman and spent many hours attending Torah study discussion groups (she is still a good friend; and incidentally she manages a lab full of physicists and doesn't believe in God)

Anyway it's find to recommend a book or occasional quote, but please don't keep spending time here lecturing us endlessly about the bible. You aren't convincing anyone of anything; quite the reverse. There are many other available forums devoted to that, for those who feel motivated to pursue that line of interest.

When I want to read a book, my house looks like a library, including family bibles going back well over 100 years. I also have books from many other religions and philosophies. I am sure others here have even more.

However I am very interested in sharing personal experiences and philosophical viewpoints with people who are experienced climbers; and who bring that experience to bear upon other aspects of life. That includes Christians and atheists and whatever. I have my own viewpoints towards life and tend to feel more comfortable sharing in this odd collection of climbers than in most other places.

We've mostly all been exposed to a broad range of religions and philosophies, and we have had time to make our choices and learn to live with them. I have learned a lot from many of the people here, including Klimmer. But we don't need to waste our time proselytizing each other.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 3, 2012 - 04:36am PT
if you're a serious scientist or scholar, rector, you don't ignore anything.

True, you evaluate everything and then dismiss some things out of hand, look into and write off other things, and examine yet other things and decide they merit further observation.

P.S. The bible would be more interesting if they had given it to Edith Hamilton for a couple of years of research and editing.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 3, 2012 - 11:50am PT
I was also married for ten years to a scholarly Jewish woman and spent many hours attending Torah study discussion groups (she is still a good friend; and incidentally she manages a lab full of physicists and doesn't believe in God)

Evidence of Spirituality practiced, not just preached. Good friends with ex-wife

Peace

Karl
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 3, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"

So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
May 3, 2012 - 10:01am PT

I said ...
GOD will sit back and say "I told you so. I even gave you a book to read at your leisure in black and white to read that explains it all. The past and future. I'm Omnipotent. I told you so. Why didn't you listen?"

You responded ...
So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?


Our ways are not GOD's ways. He says so many, many times throughout The Good Book.

Also to do so, would be a direct assault against our free-will. GOD is much more thoughtful and much more subtle perhaps.

The Good Book also says he is very patient and he waits for more to turn to him, not wanting anyone to perish. That is why he tarries.

He knows his time. He will at some point say no more time. And that will be it. Judgement.


You responded ...
So if "god" is so hell-bent on us believing your version of existence, why then doesn't "he" just show up and do something so undeniably spectacular that even the most skeptical of us couldn't argue with. I mean, he's omnipotent, right?

I think you are failing to recall the life of Jesus Christ, Emmanuel, GOD with Us. We has here for about 30-33 years on Earth, and lived a life without sin, and gave us a perfect example on how to live our lives. And then he died for us, taking our judgement upon himself. That is how much he loves us. He died for us so we wouldn't have to. Accept his gift.

Watch the Mel Gibson movie The Passion of Christ if you haven't seen it before. I personally can't watch that movie without crying and realizing how much GOD loves us to save all of mankind.

How long will we keep spitting in GOD's face?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 3, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Uh huh. Did you not understand the question and the part about "undeniably spectacular?" Just because some lady got preggers and was afraid of being stoned to death for promiscuity doesn't make her baby god.

Good luck with your fantasy. I'm glad it gives you comfort. Too bad it wreaks so much anguish and bloodshed for the rest of us.
WBraun

climber
May 3, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
klimmer -- "He died for us so we wouldn't have to."

Meanwhile everyone is still dying ......
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 3, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
From my Christian perspective . . .

Wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to be alone here according to the good book?

Where do alien spaceships fit in?
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
May 3, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
Wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to be alone here according to the good book?

Where do alien spaceships fit in?

Read the first post in the thread.

You have to read your Bible, the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Enoch to understand this hidden history. Fallen Angels mated with beautiful Earthly women, and had off-spring called Nephalim. They were big, strong, very intelligent and were the combination of the worst of the Fallen Angels, and the worst of Mankind. They were a hybrid species that wasn't supposed to be. The Bible has a lot to say about the Giants, the Nephalim. It is why GOD had to wipe them all out with a massive global flood. But the Bible also says they continued to live on after the flood. Not all of them were destroyed. Could it be that they also built an Ark and escaped off World? They had the intelligence of Angels, the Fallen Angels, whom by the way taught man all kinds of forbidden knowledge, such as War. The Book of Enoch goes into all of this in detail . . .
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
May 3, 2012 - 04:46pm PT
don't you just love to paint yourself into that scenario? but you'll die before it happens, klim, just like every other can't-wait-for-it-all-to-be-over christian of the past 2,000 years.

the problem is, buddy, you're closing your mind to material which doesn't fit into your picture. in that, you're ignoring many keys to figuring this out--just as your detractors here ignore just about everything.

T-Bird nailed it...

The shot of the spaceship on the OP looks so fake it's hilarious.


And the spaceship? Looks like topography to me.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2012 - 08:48pm PT
Why do you insist on using a larger copy of the Apollo 15 image that has been obviously altered to add disinfo and even to the point of removing key boulders? I've already gone into detail on this image in this thread before.

Of course it looks fake. It was manipulated to appear so.

Edit:

I'll get back later. My iphone is running out of battery. Just to let you know, there is very likely another spacecraft in the 2 Apollo 15 and Apollo 17 images. I haven't talked about it yet. Others have seen it also. And it stands out in stereo 3D detail. It's discussed in the original Apollo 20 story by retiredAFB.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
May 3, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
Your arrows did not point to 'clearly seen' boulders. We've been over this with you before.

Please tell us why the conspirators would have to remove boulders that are not on the 'ark' anyway?

Never mind Klimmer, I'm headed out to the comedy club and will get plenty of laughs.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
The above faked/disinfo image has been wildly blended and detail has been added that is not in the original image. Note: the stereo pair fake partner of this image has not been produced.

The above image has been significantly altered and misrepresented purposefully. Deliberate disinfo.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 3, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
cheers for tom's observations. philosophy talk among climbers, while often getting nowhere, seems to fall back on a certain brotherhood and sisterhood. perhaps it makes us consider opposing points of view a little more than we would do otherwise. as i said previously, i have to thank klimmer for helping me to take the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) seriously.

likewise i might thank this thread's resident curmudgeon healyje for a look at joe feddersen's art via the colville tribal website, and now for the greek way by edith hamilton.

i've mentioned two recent scriptural scholars, erhman and pagels. ehrman makes the observation that--as tom seems to have found with his dad--most scholars of the bible and related literature are themselves believers, and no matter how careful they try to be, belief colors all the "scholarship" that they do.

Wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to be alone here according to the good book?

Where do alien spaceships fit in?

let me catch you up on that, survival.

there's a whole christian point of view, vis-a-vis the ETH. it isn't totally flaky, at least as far as mainstream religion goes. the vatican seems to have taken some real interest in the subject lately. there are also christian websites which deal with the abduction experience. if you think the abduction experience is totally flaky, you just haven't looked at it. many, many people, including some prominent ones--i mentioned a nobel prize winner earlier on this thread--have gone through this. christians who invoke the name of jesus--kinda like the old waving of a cross in the face of a vampire attack--seem to have avoided apparent unwanted abduction. but there seem to be other successful ways of doing that. you also have friendly "contactee" experiences, with supposedly nonthreatening, even spiritual and loving "aliens", or whatever the hell or heaven they are. if you guys think it's all nonsense, it's because you haven't taken a close look at the material. there's a whole lot of it going on, and serious researchers like mack, hopkins, appelle and jacobs have spent years examining it. i doubt healyje wants to look at any of this too closely--he'll be much more comfortable dismissing it out of hand, but i doubt the categories he dismisses it to hold up well against the accumulated evidence.

klimmer looks at the ETH in terms of genesis accounts of warring angels/devils. ETH people would have us believe in annunaki, pleidians, ET tribes from orion and even andromeda, and also earthbound subterraneans, reptoids--a whole beastiary. i think vallee is on the right track. this is all part of "the phenomenon". the phenomenon is real, and it has a physical basis. those who experience it are not crazy, but it seems to be more of a mental/perceptual thing than the nuts-and-bolts flying saucers which were our first explanation. it probably involves intelligent beings, but they could be from other dimensions, not other solar systems. they can be ornery, mischievous, friendly. they may be more of a presence here than we've ever dreamed of, and they could well be involved with religion and government, controlling us through these means for a long time.

what doesn't fit, however, when you take a close look at this material, is the "lonely planet" hypothesis. we are not isolated here. things have been going on, and the activity seems to have intensified as our own complexity has evolved.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
May 3, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
My iphone is running out of battery.

Thank you God.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 3, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
You have to read your Bible, the Book of Genesis, and the Book of Enoch to understand this hidden history. Fallen Angels mated with beautiful Earthly women, and had off-spring called Nephalim. They were big, strong, very intelligent and were the combination of the worst of the Fallen Angels, and the worst of Mankind. They were a hybrid species that wasn't supposed to be. The Bible has a lot to say about the Giants, the Nephalim. It is why GOD had to wipe them all out with a massive global flood. But the Bible also says they continued to live on after the flood. Not all of them were destroyed. Could it be that they also built an Ark and escaped off World? They had the intelligence of Angels, the Fallen Angels, whom by the way taught man all kinds of forbidden knowledge, such as War. The Book of Enoch goes into all of this in detail . . .


angels, my ass
dirtbag

climber
May 3, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
No wonder our kids are bombing in science.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
The same doubting Thomases show up time and time again. If you think its all bovine dung then why even waste your time? At least Tony and Tom give it thoughtful due diligence and don't wave it off with a flick of their hands.

I fully admit that I take the Biblical/ Christian ET= Fallen Angel hypothesis. Many others do also. At least History Channel considers it by its very mention.

Does anyone have an idea where the 2nd spaceship is in the original Apollo 15 and 17 stereopairs? I'm curious if anyone else on ST sees it. Others have located it on other websites. Any takers?

Sorry to dissapoint you bvb. My battery is now charging as I type.
dirtbag

climber
May 4, 2012 - 12:05am PT
LOL.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2012 - 12:39am PT
So where's the 2nd spaceship?

C'mon give it a go.





Backside of the Moon at "Izsak D" crater, just North of Izsak Crater. Official NASA Apollo 15 stereo-pair images.

Ala Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind, "They're here . . ."


http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625



http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630




http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/mapcatalog/apolloindex/apollo15/as15indexmap01/



Red/Blue anagram stereo-pair:





Official NASA Apollo 17 images made into a stereo-pair:





Low resolution JAXA Selene image:




Red/Blue anagram stereo-pair close-up:











Low resolution official NASA LRO images used in "Google Moon":














Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 4, 2012 - 10:56am PT
klimmer, you keep reposting this stuff about stereo pairs, and i'm just not following it and you're not convincing the kids in the peanut gallery. i think you should take a thorough look at john lear's pegasus consortium page. there are a lot of people involved with it, and some of them seem to have technical brains, but they're all telling us stuff much more outrageous than this old, crashed ark business. here's just one of the gang:

http://www.keithlaney.net/ThreeArtificialStructures/ThreeArtificialStructures.html

it'd be nice to get lear himself to take an interest in this thread. he's got more attitude than the combined lot of us and seems to take great delight in blogfights.
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
May 4, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
Why do you insist on using a larger copy of the Apollo 15 image that has been obviously altered to add disinfo and even to the point of removing key boulders?

I'm curious as to why the picture I posted is considered disinfo. How is it less genuine or authentic than the pictures you've posted? It looks like it's a better resolution photo of the previously posted pictures... Am I supposed to include sources? If so, where are yours?

The "low resolution" JAXA image you posted indeed is actually much higher resolution than the others - you can't deny that. You can tell by being able to see the ejecta rings from the craters.

In case any onlookers are interested, here is the stereo pair Klimmer has been posting, aligned correctly so that one may view it correctly:


(you can view it on the screen by zooming in or out and slightly crossing your eyes).

If you think its all bovine dung then why even waste your time?

Because time I have. You're more than welcome to believe whatever you want, but I'm just putting forth my observations that the images presented do not show a spaceship, but some irregular topography inside of an old crater. If anything, it would be more evident of some sort of fluid flow creating this feature than anything.
monolith

climber
albany,ca
May 4, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
Klimmer said:

Note: the stereo pair fake partner of this image has not been produced

You can say the dumbest stuff, Klimmer. If this were true, it means you could have just zoomed in on 9625, found the dependencies with 9630 and been the ark hero.

Or maybe you could have just googled for it. Ask your students for some basic google tips.



healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 4, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
For about the hundredth time - we have photo resolution down to the astronaut's footprint and rover trails. No need for any mystery around what's at this location.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
May 4, 2012 - 04:14pm PT

“The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters” by Francisco Goya.

It consists of a self-portrait of the artist with his head on a table, as owls and bats surround him, assailing him as he buries his head into his arms. Seemingly poised to attack the artist are owls [symbols of folly] and bats [symbols of ignorance].

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
May 4, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
NASA photos of alien artifacts on the moon.






TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 8, 2012 - 01:23am PT
when some of these photos came down, i had the privilege of showing Buz Aldrin images of his foot tracks at their landing site
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 11, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
Tom, seems you'd be in a position to know, are we talking a rock form or an alien ark and NASA has been hiding the high res shots of that area because of it...?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 11, 2012 - 07:45pm PT
Tom, seems you'd be in a position to know, are we talking a rock form or an alien ark and NASA has been hiding the high res shots of that area because of it...? - Healyje

i honestly don't know

i will tell you that if i did know, i would tell you

i don't have any direct personal experience in this area; although i have seen a few things in the air and at sea for which i have no easy explanation

and i knew about the SR-71 and F-117 about a decade before either was public knowledge. i was told about them by other rock climbers

i have done a great deal of study in this area of unusual phenomena and know others who have studied much more. i wouldn't spend my time studying these areas if i didn't think it is very important to know

i do know three of the men who walked on the moon, but they haven't told me anything one way or another about this or similar things

i have seen enough evidence to know that our level of understanding of many things is very low and we have much to learn

and so i will share a few of my personal opinions

my opinions are only my best guesses or else my thinking that someone else's observations hold some merit

NASA space programs are much smaller than DoD space programs

NASA does keep a lot of confidential information, but i don't know why that is, except for requirements imposed by DoD

i have not been exposed to any 'NASA Confidential Information' (ITAR sensitive) where that information was not rather easy to figure out or otherwise widely publicly available if someone such as a foreign government cared to go looking for it

i think Klimmer's research into these subjects is quite extensive and interesting; whether or not i may agree with his conclusions and speculations

i don't think the jokers and degraders attacking Klimmer are well informed or acting wisely

i do know from personal experience that governments and other large organizations have things to cover up that are discreditable beyond most people's imaginations

this is why there is so much secrecy, disinformation and coverup

i have been told by a black programs insider that nothing NASA does is anything but a coverup. i don't think that is entirely true; but i have seen direct evidence of some truth in that.

i think that NASA also serves an important role as a place to stockpile expertise and creative ideas that are sometimes applied to the insider programs

Colonel John B. Alexander PhD created an insider group to study the UFO phenomena and he is frequently tagged by UFO researchers as one of the most knowlegeable insiders on the subject. He wrote a very interesting book published last year titled 'UFOs, myths, conspiracies, and realities'

He debunks a lot of commonly repeated myths and conspiracy theories. He also lists a substantial number of UFO observations that convince him there is more going on than is generally accepted.

There is little doubt that some unidentified flying objects are real, three-dimensional solid objects, which are physically present and observable. To support their tangible attributes they are registered on a variety of sensor systems. They are seen by competent witnesses, photographed, have radar returns, are captured on FLIRs, leave radiation traces, and sometimes are spotted by surveillance satellites...ranging from small orbs of light to gigantic material craft miles in diameter... - John Alexander
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 11, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
Ok, that was an extensive if somewhat indirect answer to a very specific question. Maybe a different tact. Do you have access to any imagery at those coordinates which would have substantially higher resolution than those already posted here? Thanks.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 11, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
There is little doubt that some unidentified flying objects are real, three-dimensional solid objects, which are physically present and observable. To support their tangible attributes they are registered on a variety of sensor systems. They are seen by competent witnesses, photographed, have radar returns, are captured on FLIRs, leave radiation traces, and sometimes are spotted by surveillance satellites...ranging from small orbs of light to gigantic material craft miles in diameter... - John Alexander

He was doing alright until he got to this...

khanom: I mean if one accepts that there could be other sentient beings "out there", then why not?

Distance is 'why not'. Given the distances involved, interstellar travel is essentially time travel which, in turn means they've discovered how to source and harness near infinite amounts of energy. Any assertion the Earth has been visited makes the assumption that some advance civilization conquered time travel, discovered the Earth existed, and then decided it was worth visiting. And while I believe there are untold numbers of planets with intelligent life, I think the odds of interstellar travel by those societies are essentially nil (and that anyone would think we're all that interesting equally non-existent).
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 11, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Do you have access to any imagery at those coordinates which would have substantially higher resolution than those already posted here?

Perhaps, but I would have to spend some time at it. It's probably just as easy for you.

High resolution LRO imagery is being released on no particular schedule that I am aware of, and you also have access to this.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/main/index.html

There is a building at NASA Ames where a team is going through lunar imagery and producing high quality compilations. I go there once in a while and have casual acquaintances. They are excited about their very tedious work, but so far as I know, not the kind of excitement that a massive ark would generate.

http://ti.arc.nasa.gov/tech/asr/intelligent-robotics/planetary/moon/

I am also a colleague of the NASA WorldWind project that publicly shares very detailed geo-referenced earth blue marble data and lunar Clementine imagery

http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/moon.html

However you need to realize that the subject of UFOs is just never mentioned or discussed by NASA people.

People outside the NASA community seem to assume that NASA employees know all about the subject and just aren't talking. My experience is that NASA employees don't know all about the subject and just don't talk about it at all. It's like an embarrassing family secret that no one ever mentions.

I am not sure why. Probably it is considered a career limiting subject. You have to realize that NASA budgets are under constant heavy political pressure. Note that most of the human flight program centers are in the bible belt states and a lot of my colleagues are fundamentalist Christians. And a certain strong Alabama senator pretty much controls NASA budgets.

Perhaps this subconsciously also falls into the DoD limitations on what we can talk about. NASA centers are guarded by extremely serious security personnel who can easily make your life very miserable. As a member of the NASA SAR team for ten years, I have known the Ames security chief and his program manager wife pretty well. But there are subjects i wouldn't think of asking him about.

Likewise the Ames center director is an astronomer and air force general who used to be in charge of the DoD center that tracks all objects in near earth space. He was also program director for the Clementine mission that produced a lot of the best lunar imagery before LRO. You can suppose he knows about stuff, if anyone does. I have shared a lot of wine with him, but again, there are topics that are not appropriate to discuss if i want to stay friends. I respect these people and think they would find a way to let me know if they were sure of something that I need to know.

Perhaps this is hard to understand. Think of it this way: Imagine you are in charge of protecting our national security by detecting and tracking any inbound ICBMs. Then you find yourself tracking large unknown objects moving at unfathomable courses and speeds, and that hover over your missile silos and disable the warheads... This doesn't become a subject for casual dinner conversation...
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
May 11, 2012 - 10:58pm PT
good post Tom - thanks
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 11, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
Distance is 'why not'. Given the distances involved, interstellar travel is essentially time travel which, in turn means they've discovered how to source and harness near infinite amounts of energy. Any assertion the Earth has been visited makes the assumption that some advance civilization conquered time travel, discovered the Earth existed, and then decided it was worth visiting. And while I believe there are untold numbers of planets with intelligent life, I think the odds of interstellar travel by those societies are essentially nil (and that anyone would think we're all that interesting equally non-existent).

hmmm...and what if these assumed creatures evolved ahead of us on this planet, perhaps during the age of dinosaurs...just speculating (as you are)
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
May 11, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
Much of the thinking here regarding interstellar travel is predicated on beings of a form and existence similar to ours. It's possible this is not even the case, nor is it likely we can imagine what form they could be. Nor would we recognize them if we encountered these beings.

Stop torturing yourselves regarding what we are not even capable of imagining.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 12, 2012 - 01:07am PT
Nice post Tom C

Undoubtedly, we're all wrong

Some of us are wrong on the side of the the majority status quo view, and others on various perspectives on what's out there.

Best to learn things and keep an open mind, really really open, but that also means open to "that didn't happen" and "that was a hoax"

Peace

Karl
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 12, 2012 - 01:25am PT
Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein

UFOs are real! With no prevarication or qualification of terms, there are physical objects of unknown origin that do transit our universe. The evidence that supports those statements is simply overwhelming. That evidence includes both hard data collected via multispectral sensors and from high-quality eye-witnesses that are neither misreporting facts nor delusional. Determining what these objects are, let alone the question of origin, is another matter. There are no simple solutions that fit all the facts.

This books differs from all others written about the subject because it details a personal exploration of the topic in ways that no other researcher has been able to accomplish. What is important and unique are the details of direct interactions with senior officials from many agencies - and finding that no one was responsible for this topic anywhere in the U.S. Government. That fact is very significant and runs counter to conventional wisdom. This book addresses those problems so that the reader can understand the government's role in UFOs as it really is; not the way many people believe it should be.
 Colonel John B. Alexander PhD
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 12, 2012 - 03:03am PT
Tom: hmmm...and what if these assumed creatures evolved ahead of us on this planet, perhaps during the age of dinosaurs...just speculating (as you are)

I don't find there to be anything speculative about interstellar distances or what that means in terms of time. Quite the contrary, wishing they don't exist or thinking they are surmountable is what's highly speculative.

Positing that an advanced, pre-human species allowed our species to florish and overrun the planet like so many rats and now just fly aimlessly around in a astounding variety of secretly manufactured ships seems, biologically speaking, wildly speculative even beyond time travel.

bmcad: Nor would we recognize them if we encountered these beings.

Yet you're sure they take the form of creatures that still have fur - something evolution here on Earth eliminated due to the inherent problems associated with fur in cranial cooling.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 12, 2012 - 07:14am PT
Hey, I just wanna wish God a Happy F*#king Mothers Day.
That was a swell picture in the 4 Mothers day topic.

If God chooses to bark on the fudding moon, it's not like you can change Her mind. She could have gone to Half Dome with Her sh#t. Then this would all be f*#king moot.

Halo and good-bye.

MFM

"Guardian angel, guardian dear..."
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 12, 2012 - 09:04am PT
I don't find there to be anything speculative about interstellar distances or what that means in terms of time. Quite the contrary, wishing they don't exist or thinking they are surmountable is what's highly speculative.


We've been studying physics for few thousands years and been good at it for a few hundred. What do civilizations learn and how do they evolve when they have millions of years at it?

Most the "Laws" and buidling blocks of things we believed a hundred or two hundred years ago have turned to not to be so basic and transcended by other realities like sub-atomic particles and relativity. Your "Assumption" is that those newer view aren't themselves limited and that there are principles that even transcend them

Peace

Karl
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 12, 2012 - 09:54am PT
Pastoral by Beethoven. We learned to like that right away, my Wawa friend.

Being a generous man, when I can be, I give the dinos some credit for savvy.

Extend the credit to civvy. Lization.

They were probably cold-blooded, but that doesn't say anything of what they thought or maybe felt.

They certainly had a few million years to do something with those brains.

Are we warm-bloods any different, needing what we think we need, than they?

Do we need God, man? The dinos may have invented her; we'll never figure that one out.

Or some of us may think we have, and so we circle the truth over millions of years.

What's gained is inevitably lost, apparently. I don't see any copies of the Daily Dino lying around or in a morgue.

We certainly don't have millions of years, not the way we are heading.

There's always hope, however. One guy, the last guy with two quarters left in his pocket could call God and she could save us from ourselves. With enough faith. And enough quarters.

Got little faith anymore. Ain't wasting my quarters.

Just had to bark, friends. Peace. Rruff-ruff.
Russ Walling

Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
May 12, 2012 - 11:25am PT
ok... so I'm watching Ancient Aliens as a back up program while there is a commercial playing on Billy the Exterminator.... who is the suave-ass dude with the unreal hair-do (or don't) and a Greek-ish name? Just what exactly is his deal??? Man I wish I had a wig like that going.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 12, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
Karl: We've been studying physics for few thousands years and been good at it for a few hundred. What do civilizations learn and how do they evolve when they have millions of years at it?

If we studied the Moon or Alpha Centauri for another million years is it your expectation that something about the distance to either would change significantly? Once again, there are likely always billions of planets with intelligent life at any give moment, but the idea that by being good students and studying long enough any of them will find a magic wand to short-circuit distance and time is beyond wildly speculative.

But even if at any given moment there were one, or a million such time-traveling societies, it would mean Earth's are common as dirt and there would be nothing whatsoever special enough about us to warrant expending the energy it would take to visit us.

And even if some 'advanced' society were stupid enough to decide the Earth was interesting enough to bother visiting do you really think that would yield the thousands of different UFO forms claimed by the Klimmerati? Do you really think someone who could make the trip, and brought with them even an armada of varietal craft forms, would then just occasionally joy ride around in them decade after decade?

And we won't even get into what the ridiculous array of UFO sighting characteristics of speed, light and heat say relative to the way our incredibly energy-efficient alien visitors expend energy volleying around our atmosphere. But c'mon, even if you allow for such aliens, assume they have a sick fetish about the Earth, and that the most 'credible' UFO 'data' are real - then our alien visitors are then unavoidably, and in no uncertain terms, complete f*#king idiots.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
May 12, 2012 - 04:47pm PT
Positing that an advanced, pre-human species allowed our species to florish and overrun the planet like so many rats and now just fly aimlessly around in a astounding variety of secretly manufactured ships seems, biologically speaking, wildly speculative even beyond time travel.

The notion is called Directed Panspermia and is the speculation of Nobel prize winners, written long before supertopo

You've lost track of who and what you are arguing against you've been swimming upstream so hard so long. Now you are drowning Healyje
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 12, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
...then our alien visitors are then unavoidably, and in no uncertain terms, complete f*#king idiots. "

yeah, that's why they created us like this
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 12, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
tom: ...yeah, that's why they created us like this.

Ah, then I guess I'm forced to take that as you actually thinking the most 'credible' of the UFO 'data', taken as a whole, is coherent enough to say something logical or even vaguely rational about the morphology, material, flight, light, or heat characteristics involved.

Good luck with that...
WBraun

climber
May 12, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
The stooopid gross materialists are so fuking arrogant thinking their eyeballs are the only ones that can see anything.

If the gross mundane materialists can't see something with their limited defective eyeballs they think it doesn't exist.

The gross materialists are all defective and everything they create is defective.

All their measuring instruments are defective like them.

All foolish rascals with no good brains ......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2012 - 06:35pm PT
Tom,

Thanks for saying things about what you know. You certainly have incredible opportunities to talk with a great deal of people that could know the truth and probably do know. What incredible pressure for them all to be quiet. Secrets can be kept. Job security can make a man or woman keep their mouth shut, no doubt. But even our NASA heroes have opened up: Werner Von Braun, Gordon Cooper, John Glenn, Edgar Mitchell, even Buzz Aldrin has said very curious things over the years, as well as Neil Armstrong.

I would read DARK MISSION: NASA's Secret History by Richard Hoagland and Mike Bara. Something strange does in-fact go on at NASA and JPL.




Yes, this is the Christian, Biblical point of view . . .

See videos, presentations, and books by:

Chuck Missler, PhD

Michael Heiser, PhD

David Flynn


They were here millions, billions of years (13.7B) before we were. They witnessed the Singularity, The Big Bang.

They occupied our Solar System long before we were ever here on Earth. They were the Sons of GOD. Then Lucifer, the most beautiful among them thought himself better than GOD, and wanted to be worshiped as GOD and led astray 33% of the Sons of GOD. They are the fallen ones. They are The Fallen Angels. They are full of lies and deceit. They warped the reality of GOD's plan, and deceitfully lied and made mankind believe they were GODs from significant constellations in our Universe, and went among many civilations throughout our history showing themselves as ET GODs. They aren't GODs. They are Sons of GOD. They were created and are similar to GOD, but they are not GOD. GOD warned us about them. Even as incredibly intelligent and powerful as they are, they can not create life. That is why they need DNA from mankind and abductions continue. They are coming back. "As the Days of Noah so shall be the coming of the Son of Man be." The Fallen Angels were mating with beautiful Earthly women and taking multiple wives of their choosing in the days of Noah. They also led mankind astray and taught us things we weren't supposed to know, like war, among many other things. Paradise was lost.

We can get it back. There is a plan by GOD. Jesus Christ showed it to us, showed us the way, and made it possible by giving his life for us.

There are things on this Earth that aren't explainable and couldn't have been done by man alone. There are artifacts, some even massive in size on The Moon and on Mars of a period of time gone by when the Sons of GOD walked among "The Stones of Fire." Read and study The Bible and The Book of Enoch to know more.

I'm sure our US government knows the truth of the matter and there would be many reasons to keep it secret from a very ill-conceived deceptive point of view. Even The Brookings Institute told our Government to hide the truth if we ever found it. It would be too hard for mankind to handle the truth more or less was their point of view. It would be too disruptive. NASA has abided by this policy. There is a very important scene in the movie Space Odyssey 2001 that directly addresses this.

Yes, perhaps to the very rich powerful and corrupt elite it would be too disruptive if we knew the full truth.



Prologue from Michael Heiser's very good novel based on truth called The Facade . . .


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 12, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
yeah Werner, you have to admire the quality of their electronic traps that keep most of the inmates on this prison planet so stuck in the material world that they can't see anything outside of their line-of-sight and mental programming



Yes, perhaps to the very rich powerful and corrupt elite it would be too disruptive if we knew the full truth. -Klimmer

Yes, Klimmer, so I hope you are prepared to learn that some of your most cherished beliefs may be part of that deceit


I'm sure our US government knows the truth of the matter

i think that is highly unlikely

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 12, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
We have met the enemy, and they are us! - Pogo

'Them vs. Us' ...the concept of otherness is at the root of all conflicts
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 12, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
And you also have to admire those who make their living flipping bits and then leap off into the void casually leaving behind the very ideas that flip those bits.

P.S. You also just have to love the rabidly Pavlovian response to the word 'material' regardless of the context...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 12, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
Healyje, i respect your opinions and really wish your somewhat conventional views of the world could explain reality as neatly as you claim.

But you really haven't done enough homework to be blithely tossing off many of your comments. Like many firmly held views of reality, it only works when you ignore many instances of outlying unusual phenomena and claim there is no such evidence.

i make no claim to understand everything, not even close. I will only claim that i do not personally know of any coherent world view that stands up to careful scrutiny

and in my experience with people, even the most rigorous researchers on any subject will not claim to fully understand their subject, unless they require the psychological security blanket of insisting their world view is the one and only truth. these are the ones who have stopped their learning process and are just trying to bolster up their security blanket.
bmacd

Trad climber
100% Canadian
May 13, 2012 - 06:01am PT
Klimmer what the government does not know the military does, to a greater degree. This is where the secrets are kept.

I like Tom's use of the term prison planet a theme when put to good use explains why earth is not a utopia . I first encountered the concept through Lou Baldins writing on ATS and his books "In League with a UFO" and "A Day with an Extraterrestrial"

Lots of imaginative ideas to explain life on this planet, the role of Extraterrestrials and levels of creators. His plasma cosmology stuff is cool too. The sun gives birth to planets. The moons bearers of water from the gas giants . Disk accretion theory is horsesh#t.
jfailing

Trad climber
Lone Pine
May 13, 2012 - 06:12am PT
ok... so I'm watching Ancient Aliens as a back up program while there is a commercial playing on Billy the Exterminator.... who is the suave-ass dude with the unreal hair-do (or don't) and a Greek-ish name? Just what exactly is his deal??? Man I wish I had a wig like that going.

Russ - That dude went viral:



Check out more here: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ancient-aliens
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
May 14, 2012 - 10:26am PT
i make no claim to understand everything, not even close. I will only claim that i do not personally know of any coherent world view that stands up to careful scrutiny

and in my experience with people, even the most rigorous researchers on any subject will not claim to fully understand their subject, unless they require the psychological security blanket of insisting their world view is the one and only truth. these are the ones who have stopped their learning process and are just trying to bolster up their security blanket.

Amen, the more you know, the more you know that nobody really knows

Peace

Karl
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 16, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
http://spacecoalition.com/blog/mars-rover-back-on-the-prowl-for-more-science


unlike some here, i do think that there are US government entities who can keep big secrets. and more importantly big corporations

from the evidence of abundant published imagery around the solar system, i think it is safe to say that if there are big ships laying around out there, someone in positions of authority has high quality imagery of them

and there probably is a limitation on how long such could be kept under wraps

so do they?

i really do not know

my best guess would be:

probably not
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
May 16, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
An important and pertinent study, that should be of interest to Klimmer and his friends:
http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 16, 2012 - 04:13pm PT
interesting, thanks

i have seen other similar studies indicating that EMF shielding is no simple matter

so quoting from my comments on the religion thread regarding things that might be affecting our brain wave patterns

So let's examine what might be influencing your experiment a little bit:

The room is bombarded with multi-spectral EMF; such as 60-cycle house current, radio waves across the entire spectrum from lab computers, the spectrum analyzer, video cameras, sound recording devices, fluorescent lights, smartphones, TV, radio, FAA RADAR, microwave communications, a microwave oven in the staff room, SATCOM, GPS, automobile engine controllers, etc
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
May 16, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
here's the one that does the trick:

http://www.stopabductions.com/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2012 - 06:12pm PT
Lol.

You guys are too funny.

Hey, however aluminum foil shielding does work for all cell phones though!!! Wrap your phone right now and try calling from another phone. No ringy-ringy and no answer.

If your worried "they're" listening in on you without you being aware, this can happen, FBI had to admit they have this capability in a court of law. Look it up.

http://www.wired.com/politics/security/news/2007/08/wiretap?currentPage=all

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/6/12/3957/14177

Yes, take the battery out, but then there might be a smaller battery inside that still allows it to function as a remote wire tap or tracking device whether you want it to or not. So take the battery out and then wrap it in aluminum.

But we can trust the gubment so no worries.


(Although Roger Waters had something else to say when he asked this question at The Wall concert, "Can we trust the Government? No _ _ _ _ ing way !!"


Food for thought, when one day they come kicking down the door.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jun 9, 2012 - 12:26am PT
http://news.exopoliticsinstitute.org/index.php/25391/
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 20, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
Might be a big chunk of ice there, too.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/06/20/sci-moon-crater-ice.html

adi580

climber
Jun 24, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
Are you serious about Nasa confirming or denying this kind of info? 1. They are not the only ones to conduct space missions of this kind in fact I believe they are being kept out of it because of it's public attention . The ones that usually make this kind of missions ..well you probably never heard of them .They don't go public . 2 For now , nobody will confirm this kind of info because they do have the tech to erase everything that shouldn't be there and leave no trace of it , so it is very easy for them to say it's fake . 3 The only time they are going to confirm it is when they are going to use it against us , to scare as i.e. in a fake alien invasion . Remember everything , and I mean EVERYTHING they do/say is for their own agenda with no interest whatsoever towards the average citizen . Trolls and The common no-brainers don't believe this , don't want to believe this and I understand them , you do need some sort of intelligence in order to digest the reality. My condolences to them
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2012 - 12:21pm PT
There was life on Mars, fossil remains prove it.

There is life on Mars contemporaneously right now. We proved that in 1976 with “The Labeled Release Experiment” designed by Dr. Levin, on the Viking Mission. Many, many other evidences we have at this moment all stack up and point to contemporaneous life right now.


Mars The Living Planet [Kindle Edition]
Barry E. DiGregorio and Dr. Gibert Levin (Authors)
http://www.amazon.com/Mars-The-Living-Planet-ebook/dp/B004QTOQLU/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1341591223&sr=8-3&keywords=life+on+mars+levin

“It was in this book that astrobiologist/inventor Gilbert V. Levin first announced that his microbial detection instrument called the Labeled Release experiment aboard NASA's 1976 Viking Lander spacecraft found living microorganisms in the soil of Mars. So why isn't Levin among the most celebrated scientists in history?”

I have a hard copy of this famous book. I should get it autographed.
;-))


There is now a new addendum to Dr. Levin's book, that supports the finding of life on Mars in 1976 even more, just published in 2011:

The Microbes of Mars [Kindle Edition]
Barry DiGregorio and Dr. Gilbert Levin (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/The-Microbes-of-Mars-ebook/dp/B004QL6LPW/ref=pd_sim_kstore_1?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2






Richard Hoagland has been saying this for a long time …


The Curious Case of the NASA Crinoid Cover-Up
By Richard C. Hoagland
© 2004 The Enterprise Mission
http://enterprisemission.com/_articles/03-08-2004/crinoid_cover-up.htm







Coast to Coast Show 7/2/2012:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/07/02


Now a new CD Book with many NASA images, even in R/B anaglyph 3D! Get your Read/Blue glasses on. Got to love that!! ;-)) (Lol)

A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars
by Sir Charles W. Shults III
http://www.shultslaboratories.com/AFHG2MPR.htm


Turns out Sir Charles is very accomplished (he is a Sir!) and has been a prolific guest on Coast to Coast:
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guest/shults-iii-charles/6327







Comments and Reviews
http://www.shultslaboratories.com/afhg2mcom.htm


"Sir Charles has done a stellar job in identifying fossils on Mars"
- Dr. David Livingston
Host of The Space Show


“There is no question that these are sand dollars- biological markings of not complex life but life, really life on Mars. I can see this very clearly, even with my two-dimensional vision.”
- Art Bell
Host of Coast to Coast AM radio


“I know that your findings are correct; I can’t think of any other reasonable explanation. Those are fossils, but to admit it is professional suicide!”
- Michael Fulton, PhD
Designer of NASA’s Deep Space One spacecraft power system


“Wow, to spend an hour with the man himself seeing the raw data - this is going to be the best book on Mars ever.”
- Dr. Charles Ostman
UN Science Advisor and Nanotechnologist


“This is hard evidence of water on Mars. Everything we have been told is wrong, Mars has water and weather just like Earth."
- Mike Hagan
Host of Radio Orbit


“Life on Mars today would definitely be underground where the water is.”
- Dr. Michio Kaku, PhD
Theoretical Physicist


"I highly recommend it. One of the best examples of a multimedia presented peer reviewable 'paper' on an arcane topic I've ever read."
- Keith Laney
Astronomical Image Processor


"Sir Charles' refutation of NASA's numerous obfuscations, which he does easily and severally, I found entertaining. In any event, for any with interest in the subject of past and/or present life on Mars, and demonstrable fossils thereof, 'A Fossil Hunter's Guide to Mars' is, in a word, groundbreaking. Unless I miss my guess, in future years this study shall be highly regarded, indeed. I'd buy it if I were you."
- Kenneth Johnson
Sand Point, Alaska




Looks good. I’m gonna order a copy.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 6, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
klimmer, you gotta get a little closer to the cutting edge.

there's a guy out there telling us that not only is there life on mars, but there's an illuminati boot camp there too, and barack obama been there, done that. do you think i'm making this up?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 6, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
Tony point me to the link.

Obama at a Martian Boot camp?

Obama body surfs pretty good but come on even that makes me roll my eyes. Lol.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jul 6, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
klimmer, i've tried to carry on email discussions with you about this multi-ringed circus, but you never respond. frankly, i don't think ST is much interested any more. alfred webre is the strange figure involved--looks like a total flake, except that he was involved with the carter administration via stanford research, both noteworthy crossroads in ufo history.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 1, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Haven't seen this video before . . .


Interesting, but it would be nice if they cited and listed all resources. Just seems like a continual flow of thought. Seems like they mention new info, but where did all of this come from???



Aliens Come From Hell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF-F67OUEAw


[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 12, 2012 - 08:54am PT
the trouble with that scenario, klimmer, is that it isn't supported by the evidence. the christian notion of hell, when you sit down and reflect on it for five or six seconds, is inherently contradictory. there is a god set up ruling over all of existence, but the god plays games with it. devils are permitted to come and go from hell. we humans are the ones who'll be stuck there forever.

the movies do a better job than the bible. they give us a universe--multiverse, if you will--of conflicting entities and their civilizations, with different philosophies and different degrees of technological achievement. star wars, star trek, whatever. the worst it gets are self-interested klingons and empires which strike back. god and angels do not seem to have ultimate power. goodness rules only in the heart, and the hymns and carols of its refuge.

one thing carries over from both the movies and the bible. individual humans, despite having the wool pulled over our eyes bigtime, seem to retain some level of importance before any and all of these entities, whose struggle for power reaches right down into our daily lives. you're operating on sketchy clues dropped thousands of years ago. i think a god which cared about us would be giving us updates.

some interesting things about jesus, in light of recent ufology material: jesus's "incarnation", life among us, death and resurrection have many parallels in the accounts of abductees and contactees. alien entities seem to be obsessed with things like physical, though not necessarily sexual, penetration, and eugenic breeding. jesus, after all, is the ultimate eugenic product. aliens also seem to have the ability to make bodies pass through walls and windows. resurrection from a stone tomb? pretty small potatoes when they can take you through the walls of your house and up into the belly of a spaceship.

another thing about EBEs is that, even though their life expectancy is quite a bit longer than ours, they nevertheless seem to live out a life cycle and die. 200 years? 1,200? depends on the EBE, i guess, but consider how sweet, kindly jesus seemed to disappear from the planet earth about the time of the council of nicea, after which humans took over and turned his schtick into our modern religious mess. i wouldn't be surprised if the poor fellow went on to other things.

i've posted these before, but they bear posting again, 16th century woodcuts of well-witnessed star wars:


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 14, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
Perhaps you don't have to go all the way to the moon:

A retired U. S. Army Counterintelligence agent, Doug Mutschler, says that when China exploded its largest underground nuclear test on May 22, 1992, geologists and seismologists used the event to study the Earth's crust and discovered a large pyramid-shaped structure underground in western Alaska between Mount McKinley and Nome on Norton Sound. Allegedly,
Anchorage Channel 13 broadcast one news story in the fall of 1992 about the China nuclear test and subsequent pyramid discovery. The Army agent says he learned the news report was ordered erased. If anyone has any information about this 1992 event and possible suppression of an underground pyramid discovery in western Alaska, please email: earthfiles@earthfiles.com.


August 10, 2012 Updated - Part 1: Is there A Large Pyramid
Underground Between Mt. McKinley and Nome, Alaska?

“My father was 're-recruited' by the military to join a group
of other experts to study and work at an underground structure
in Alaska that in his words they called the‘Dark Pyramid.’”- July 27, 2012 email to Earthfiles after Doug Mutschler report

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 22, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
Very interesting about the underground pyramid signal. Who knows?

Tony, they've been masquerading as ET since the beginning. Yes, man has witnessed "ET" and have depicted these sightings in art.

I think Brian Godawa is onto to something here and his series of historical fiction is gonna open a lot of eyes. I'm still reading the first book, but I read the very vital appendices first. Wow!



Cross-posted from another thread . . .


Well, another believer just told me about Brian Godawa. Wow!

He has a new series of Biblical Historical/Fictional Novels and these books go right into all the things I've been bringing up on ST regarding The Book of Enoch, Fallen Angels, and Nephilim. He's a screen writer and he wrote them in the style of a movie script all ready to go. Seems there may be movies made from these.

Looks really good. He uses a lot of Dr. Michael Heiser's Hebrew and Biblical research.

I'm reading Noah Primeval now on Kindle.








Noah Primeval: Chronicles of the Nephilim Book 1 [Paperback]
Brian Godawa (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Noah-Primeval-Chronicles-Nephilim-Book/dp/0615550789/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I12UTUBCLZUT6C

Noah Primeval (Chronicles of the Nephilim Book 1) [Kindle Edition]
Brian Godawa (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Noah-Primeval-Chronicles-Nephilim-ebook/dp/B005YHZBZS/ref=tmm_kin_title_0

A Biblical Epic Reimagined: Noah Primevil
http://www.godawa.com/noah_primeval/index.html
http://www.godawa.com/noah_primeval/links.html
http://www.godawa.com/noah_primeval/nephilim_chronicles.html
http://www.godawa.com/Store/


Noah Primeval Trailer
by Brian Godawa PLUS 10 months ago
http://vimeo.com/29868758#


Interview about Noah Primeval
by Brian Godawa PLUS 10 months ago
http://vimeo.com/30194497












Enoch Primordial: Chronicles of the Nephilim Book 2 (Volume 2) [Paperback]
Brian Godawa (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Enoch-Primordial-Chronicles-Nephilim-Volume/dp/0985930926/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I2L2H2VYXHBSMV

Enoch Primordial (Chronicles of the Nephilim Book 2) [Kindle Edition]
Brian Godawa (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Enoch-Primordial-Chronicles-Nephilim-ebook/dp/B008MCSF0K/ref=tmm_kin_title_0



Enoch Primordial Trailer
by Brian Godawa PLUS 2 months ago
http://vimeo.com/43705321
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Somehow I missed this at the beginning of summer ...


Citizen Hearing On Disclosure – Campaign
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3RYMb9uoZ0

Citizen’S Hearing on Disclosure: April 23 – May 3, 2013 in Washington DC, National Press Club
http://www.citizenhearing.org/

Richard Dolan, 2013, UFO speech, Best speech ever, Citizen Hearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iROkeC3lmVA
Published on May 8, 2013 http://www.citizenhearing.org/
"Richard's fantastic speech on the last day of the Citizen Hearing on Disclosure organized by Steven Basset in Washington DC, best 10 min summary on UFOs ever, way to go Rich!"


David Whitehead - Richard Dolan on Truth Warrior 6/17/13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0tP2UJbqE
Published on Jun 21, 2013
Richard Dolan's site: http://www.keyholepublishing.com
http://americanfreedomradio.com/
http://www.theworldwasmeanttobefree.com/


Richard Dolan interview: Anonymous goes on the record
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GX0FaindPPo
Anonymous is an older gentleman, now sick, near death and he's spilling the beans for a clear and clean conscience before he passes away. Worked in the military under top secret clearances, personally witnessed and knows a great deal regarding Area 51 and what is really going on there. Brave man.

INTERVIEW WITH LT. COL. FRENCH - CITIZENS HEARING Tuesday, 14 May 2013
http://projectcamelotportal.com/videos-interviews/item/interview-with-lt-col-french-citizens-hearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XyhgI0x744
Published on May 13, 2013
This is a short interview with Lt. Col French, retired, as former officer of the OSI, scientist and pilot. He worked under orders from Majestic 12 back during the Truman and Eisenhower administrations debunking reports of UFOs in order to keep the truth from the public.
NOTE: the sound on the first 3 minute section is difficult because of the live setting... after that we move to a quieter area.




The Massive Ark, or Mothership on the backside of the Moon is still there!
Many more official NASA images from AS15. So how many stereo-pairs can I make from all of these images? Lol.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1036.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1037.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1038.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1039.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1040.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1041.jpg

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1332.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1333.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1334.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1335.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1336.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1337.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1338.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1339.jpg





So they’re here. Now the question is what are they? Where did they come from? Why are they doing this? What do they intend to do? Well, you're not gonna like the answer ...

This film can be watched on NetFlix.
The UFO Conspiracy (2004)
Joe Leahy (Actor), Brian Barkley (Director)
http://www.amazon.com/The-UFO-Conspiracy-Joe-Leahy/dp/B00077G60O/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2GL3DFQ4AXH2G&coliid=I2AQI0TBAND5J5
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Aug 2, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
what?, a 3213 post long dinosaur un-earthed on SuperTopo? Where did this come from? How could I have missed so much fun!

edit: I guess the rest of you have already had your fun and are a little worn out
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Aug 2, 2013 - 02:21pm PT
Say it's all true. Now what?

JL
dirtbag

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
Thanks for the laugh!


You might want to chat with your doctor about adjusting your mess again.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 2, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
wasn't the announcement supposed to be made a few years ago according to Klimmer?

still waiting...
G_Gnome

Trad climber
who gave up and just goes sailing now!
Aug 2, 2013 - 04:38pm PT
Funny how there isn't anything to see in any of those photos unless you really, really, really want there to be. The imagination is a wonderful thing!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Aug 2, 2013 - 11:21am PT
Say it's all true. Now what?

JL




Well, that is the Billion dollar question isn't it?



I come from a particular point of view. I make no excuses for this point of view. We were told this would happen toward the end of this modern era of man (not talking The End of the World, just the rapid coming to an end of this era of mankind only. Aka "The Last Days." From this end, a new era or age begins!)



Yeshua HaMashiach said ...


Matthew 24:29-31, NKJV. "Then He spoke to them a parable: Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near."

The budding of the Fig Tree, among all the trees is the reestablishment of the Nation of Israel which happened in 1947/48, and the return of the tribes of the people of Israel scattered in diaspora throughout the nations. That is now happening and is on-going. Israel is getting ready to rebuild the Temple, the 3rd Temple. Another prophecy that will be fulfilled counting down to the end of the age.



Matthew 24:36-39, “But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

As in the days of Noah is incredibly prophetic and note-worthy. The days of Noah were wicked beyond belief. Read the book of Enoch. Fallen Angels came down to Earth and mated with fallen women, and took up wives as many as they chose. They had off-spring that were not meant to be. The worst of Fallen Angles and the worst of Fallen Man, the Nephilim. This is not unlike what is happening now in our time with all the close encounters and abductions and the dark demonic interest by "ET" to develop mutant off-spring. We've heard this story before. Nothing new under the Sun. It's a 21st century spin.



Luke 21:25-26, NIV. "There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

I think we are getting there and are now experiencing the pre-birth pains, the beginning of sorrows. We have abused Earth and planted the seeds of our own destruction from an environmental point of view and are now suffering as a result of our own doing: acid rain, pollution of all kinds in the air, water, and food, global warming, untreatable deseases, radioactive waste, bombs, and munitions, endless war, etc. etc. etc.

But something more will happen that he described that we have no control over what-so-ever and then at a massive physical and world-wide environmental scale. These are The Birth Pains that Yeshua talked about.


Signs of Jesus' Coming
http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/topics/signs-jesus-coming

What Will the Last Days Be Like?
By David J. Stewart
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/End%20of%20the%20World/last_days.htm





The point is to be aware of what is taking place and not to be fooled by it. Many will be. Their, (ET's), purpose is to lead mankind away from HaShem, away from G-d, and to make mankind believe that they (ET) are our G-ds. That ET created us. Recall what Satan wants most is the souls of mankind. He wants to be worshiped, just as he wanted Yeshua (during the temptation of 40 days in the wilderness), G-d himself to bow down and worship him. And by doing so he sends many, many people to eternal destruction and damnation that follow his plan. It's a last days chess move by Satan along with all his Fallen Angels and demonic minions with him, who all like to masquerade as ET. He is prepping the world for his last day moves and temporary domination (NWO).

But good news!!! Yeshua returns and wipes them all out, then 1000 years of peace. The Millennium. G-d's peace. Shalom. Government by G-d, Yeshua HaMashaich, in Jersusalem, the City of David, the most important city in all of mankind's history.


Eventually ETs/Aliens will be fully disclosed World-wide whether corrupt governments want it to happen or not. One day we will all see it and know. They will make a grand appearance some how, some way, someday, for all the World to see. There will be no denying it. But if you know its coming and who they are, and why they are doing this, then you won't be fooled and faint from terror ...

"Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world ..."



But HaShem Adonai Elohim told us before what would happen, before it happens so we know. He doesn't want to lose us. We can come back and ask forgiveness and he gives it, through the redeeming blood of his son Yeshua HaMashiach. We can become sons and daughters again of The Most High, The Ancient of Days, and call The Father, "Aba."




Probably no other movie that is so scary and brings this scenario out into the open ... ET is absolutely demonic.


You can watch this movie on NetFlix …
The Fourth Kind (2009)
Milla Jovovich (Actor), Will Patton (Actor) | Rated: PG-13 |
http://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Kind-Milla-Jovovich/dp/B003102JDC/ref=sr_1_2?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1375471673&sr=1-2&keywords=encounters+of+the+fourth+kind
Bad Climber

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
Klimmer: I can't decide if you really believe all this stuff or you're the world's most dedicated troll. Both are equally disturbing.

Carry on....

BAd
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
I'm just a messenger.

When the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan, you'll remember.


As HeShem said, "My people perish from lack of knowledge."


This knowledge is your true survival kit. And you've always got it with you.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
"I can't decide if you really believe all this stuff or you're the world's most dedicated troll. Both are equally disturbing."

^^This.^^

Either way, it's provided a lot of entertainment.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
THE SICKNESS OF NONBELIEF - CITIZEN HEARING – STANTON FRIEDMAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fCx4mP6Ng

[Click to View YouTube Video]




Published on May 1, 2013
http://www.citizenshearing.org
“NUCLEAR physicist and researcher Stanton Friedman blasts a passive media for missing the biggest story of the millennia and the political and scientific communities, for failing to do their homework on the reality of the ET presence.

Friedman lunged into complicit journalists, politicians and scientists, whose apathy is helping to keep the public in the dark about the Cosmic Watergate, while giving evidence at the historic Citizen Hearing on Disclosure, in Washington DC.
To access the archives of the 5-day hearings, click on the top link.”
dirtbag

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
I really wish you'd find a profession that doesn't involve teaching kids science.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
DB,


Prove me wrong.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
"I really wish you'd find a profession that doesn't involve teaching kids science."

Oh god, *PLEASE* tell me you're kidding.
dirtbag

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
No I'm not kidding. He teaches high school science.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 06:35pm PT
Are you guys suffering from the "The Sickness of Non Belief" and more?

Do you now want to decide who believes what, and to have the power to be able select their careers also? Who stays? Who goes?

Are you anti-Semitic or worse?

Apparently you'd have issues with our founding fathers of modern science too.







Prove me wrong DirtBag. Put up or shut-up.
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:35pm PT



dirtbag

climber
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:36pm PT
Kilmer, debunking this sh#t with you is truly a waste of time. Numerous people have tried but you are far too wrapped up in your delusions to understand.

Edit: it's not my job to debunk kookery on the Internet. You don't listen so what's the point?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
I always listen. Try.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
"Are you anti-Semitic or worse?"

...he said to the guy with Jewish blood. Where did "anti-Semitic" even come from in your thought process (or lack thereof)!? Who said anything about Jews!?

"Do you now want to decide who believes what, and to have the power to be able select their careers also? Who stays? Who goes?"

Call me a fascist, but yes—I would rather not have someone so deluded that they think there's a giant spaceship on the moon put there by the Nephilim (I skimmed, sorry) teaching critical thinking and the scientific method to our young people. I guess I'm the thought police now.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
Aug 2, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
"Are you anti-Semitic or worse?"

...he said to the guy with Jewish blood. Where did "anti-Semitic" even come from in your thought process (or lack thereof)!? Who said anything about Jews!?

"Do you now want to decide who believes what, and to have the power to be able select their careers also? Who stays? Who goes?"

Call me a fascist, but yes—I would rather not have someone so deluded that they think there's a giant spaceship on the moon put there by the Nephilim (I skimmed, sorry) teaching critical thinking and the scientific method to our young people. I guess I'm the thought police now.



I'm part Ashkenazi Jewish.


Do you really want me to call you fascist? Really? I guess if you really want to control what people do, think, and believe then that is really scary.


Are you Jewish by ancestry or faith?





We have gone through this process many times. Perhaps you haven't. But no one is teaching our students "Forbidden Secret Knowledge," not even me. So you have no worries. We have State Standards and set Curriculum.

But I have my personal life and I can think very clearly and outside the State sanctioned box. Perhaps you can't?
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:48pm PT
So because you're part Jew, you take anything anyone says as potentially anti-Semitic? I still don't understand where that accusation came from.

I'm Jewish by ancestry; used to be Jewish by faith, until I grew up. ;-)
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
Ha! Yes, I can't think outside of the "state-sanctioned box" because I don't believe there's a giant spaceship placed on the moon by the Nephilim. Riiiiight...
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 06:52pm PT
"But no one is teaching our students "Forbidden Secret Knowledge," not even me. So you have no worries. We have State Standards and set Curriculum."

That wasn't my worry. My worry is that your thinking is so far removed from reality and science that you're about the least qualified person ever to teach critical/scientific thinking to others. 'You can keep an open mind without letting your brains leak out.'
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
So you've turned your back on HaShem? You don't believe the Tenach? Nor read it anymore?


I could go back through all the physical evidence and the eye-witness testimony, and the testimony from our national heros such as the "Moonwalkers" like Mitchell et al. But then that is what this very long thread has always been about. No point in going back over all of it. It's there. Lots of reading and links to guide you.


Some people have a knee-jerk reaction to all the physical evidence. These would be deniers even in the face of an incredible amount of evidence and personal testimony from those in a position to know. Some people don't want it to be true. It messes with their reality way too much. They would rather bury their head in the sand with their fingers in their ears all while saying, "I can't hear you."


It's so true ...


THE SICKNESS OF NONBELIEF - CITIZEN HEARING – STANTON FRIEDMAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fCx4mP6Ng
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
"Some people have a knee-jerk reaction to all the physical evidence. These would be deniers even in the face of an incredible amount of evidence and personal testimony from those in a position to know. Some people don't want it to be true. It messes with their reality way too much. They would rather bury their head in the sand with their fingers in their ears all while saying, "I can't hear you.""

Thank you for that excellent autobiography of Klimmer. Spot on.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
"So you've turned your back on HaShem? You don't believe the Tenach? Nor read it anymore?"

I prefer my moral basis to be genocide, murder, and rape-free, thank you very much. Besides which, I'm a bit old for imaginary friends.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
Back on topic—there's no way I'm going through the mounds of inane "facts" you've posted, so why you don't you give me three, and only three, of the best, most compelling pieces of evidence for why you believe something so outlandish? And I mean three distinct pieces of evidence, not links to three different psycho conspiracy theory websites. Three verifiable, distinct pieces of evidence that prove you're not just a psycho.

I eagerly await your response. ;-)
Off White

climber
Tenino, WA
Aug 2, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
Abram, you know what happens when you piss into the wind, don't you?
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 07:50pm PT
"Abram, you know what happens when you piss into the wind, don't you?"

Our reptilian overlords use it to create a pheromone profile to track me before our eventual enslavement? I think that's the general course of events, Klimmer can fill in the details for me.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 2, 2013 - 08:01pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
Ed, couldn't say it better myself.

Dr. F., link is broken. This must be the work of the Illuminati...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
Don't be lazy. I can't hold your hand. You'll have to step-out and read and listen and look. There are far more than 3. Limiting yourself to just 3 proves you're intellectually lazy and not really seeking to know.



By far the most uncontroversial thoroughly documented book on the subject: eye-witnesses, radar signatures, some physical evidences, and official government reports written for all sightings ...


UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record [Paperback]
Leslie Kean (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375488481&sr=8-1&keywords=ufo+kean




American heroes all of them. They say they're here ...

In one of his interviews Edgar admits to alien crafts on the Moon. Can't seem to find it today though ...

AMERICAN ASTRONAUT GORDON COOPER ADMITS TO UFO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBZXkfgEABs

aliens exist says buzz aldrin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfvhdmhQy4

Buzz Aldrin and UFOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsjmK5BFAqc

Buzz Aldrin Reveals Existence of Monolith on Mars Moon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoBgDzbQZO0

NASA Astronaut Dr. Edgar Mitchell's Interview On Alien Existence – Kerrang Radio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwSDHrJFPus

Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I

Astronaut Edgar Mitchell - Witness Testimony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tKWElDHhY4&list=TL-YC03NZYp0o

Former Astronaut Explains The UFO Cover-Up 2013 1080p HD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AAJ34_NMcI


Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
You failed at a very simple task, Klimmer. Did you see the part (multiple parts, actually) where I said "only three." The point is that, if you don't have even three solid pieces of evidence you can point out to me that makes you think something so extraordinary that it demands a HUGE amount of evidence to support, you're full of it.

If I said give me three pieces of evidence that gravity is real, you wouldn't say, "You're being lazy, go look it up for yourself," because it's extremely simple to come up with three pieces of evidence to show that gravity is real.

If I asked for three pieces of evidence to prove that evolution is real, it would be pretty simple to pick out three irrefutable pieces of evidence/research to support that.

I'm not being intellectually lazy. You simply don't have three good pieces of evidence that you could easily pick out, because it's all just a blur of half-assed thoughts and incoherent arguments that seem to maybe, sort of imply that this is the case, if you really stretch things, and that's good enough for you.

Given the ridiculousness of what you're claiming, three solid pieces of evidence is a pittance. So let's see 'em!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 2, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
So, Abram, would you tell an astronaut to his face that he is full of sh!t?
I'm certainly not man enough. Oh, and I only want a yes or a no.
Don't bother to answer if you're going to dance around the bush.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 08:42pm PT
Abram,

You are intellectually lazy. I can't help you there.





Stereo pair panoramas:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9625
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/frame/?AS15-P-9630



The Massive Ark, or Mothership on the backside of the Moon is still there!
Many more official NASA images from AS15. So how many stereo-pairs can I make from all of these images? Lol.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1036.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1037.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1038.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1039.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1040.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1041.jpg

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1332.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1333.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1334.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1335.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1336.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1337.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1338.jpg
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/resources/apollo/images/print/AS15/M/1339.jpg



Someone put some effort into this. Many more matches are possible ...

Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:15pm PT
THAT is your "evidence"? Seriously? You have to be a troll. What was supposed to be in all those pictures you sent? I looked through all of them and I don't see anything compelling enough to defy the entire scientific establishment. I didn't even see anything that looked like a spaceship.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:17pm PT
Still haven't learned yet, have you Abrams?

Follow Off White's advice, unless you enjoy talking about moonships and evil angels f*#king earthwomen.
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:20pm PT
I'm half amused and half concerned for the future of our high schoolers, but either way it's entertaining. I know I'm not changing these guys' minds when they're this far removed from reality, but it's interesting to see the "thought" process.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:21pm PT
Yeah, we've been thru the teacher thing, many times. I suspect a few of his students and their parents know he's a loonball.

No more responses from me. No doubt, Klimmer is already preparing another massive post to respond.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 09:26pm PT
Monolith,


Man I've missed you! Every time I start talking aliens you show up. Lol.






Worth repeating ...




THE SICKNESS OF NONBELIEF - CITIZEN HEARING – STANTON FRIEDMAN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fCx4mP6Ng

[Click to View YouTube Video]




Published on May 1, 2013
http://www.citizenshearing.org
“NUCLEAR physicist and researcher Stanton Friedman blasts a passive media for missing the biggest story of the millennia and the political and scientific communities, for failing to do their homework on the reality of the ET presence.

Friedman lunged into complicit journalists, politicians and scientists, whose apathy is helping to keep the public in the dark about the Cosmic Watergate, while giving evidence at the historic Citizen Hearing on Disclosure, in Washington DC.”
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:31pm PT
Give Klimmer a break guys, he's been through a lot of sh#t in the last couple years. He'll win every time because you'll begin to question your sanity. And think about it, if you spend enough time arguing with crazy, whose really the crazy one?
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:39pm PT
Alright Klimmer, I guess that's your admission that those dumb photos are your best evidence, and you can't even offer two other mediocre pieces of evidence beyond those. You're right, you win. ;-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 09:42pm PT
Yes, all these former Astronauts, Moonwalkers, Military officers, Dignitaries, Scientists, all of these people in the know who have come clean are all just: Ccrrraaazzzzyyyyyyyyyyyy. Nuts. Fruit-loops. Bananas. Tin foil hatters.

Not to mention all of the official international government websites now spilling the beans and releasing what they know. The one nation who knows the most, the one government that infamously knows the most, the USA, is sadly missing.


You, who aren't in the loop or on a need to know basis apparently know it all. It just can't be real. Because then you'd be scared. Then you'd have to sleep with your teddy bear at night. We just can't have that now can we?

Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
Then why don't you show some evidence? Simple question.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:46pm PT

If I asked for three pieces of evidence to prove that evolution is real, it would be pretty simple to pick out three irrefutable pieces of evidence/research to support that.

I'll bet you a hamburger you can't pick up one! Remember;, research, assumptions, and theories are NOT proofs.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 09:58pm PT
Apparently, you really don't know the full definition of evidence and what can be used in a court of law to convict the guilty, to prove a case, or that can be used to validate the science:

Forms of Evidence:

Physical

Photographic/Remote Sensing

Radar Signatures

Eye witness testimonies

Evidence of concealment, confiscation, shenanigans, or deliberately hiding the evidence is also evidence.

the list can go on ...



The physical is nearly always confiscated by TPTB. People are threatened, or worse, killed to hide the truth. There are plenty of eye-witness testimonies to that occurring. All the other evidences are very plentiful.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 2, 2013 - 10:13pm PT
IF there was "real evidence" of alien life forms. Wouldn't that blow the whole THEORY of evolution out of the water!
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 2, 2013 - 11:03pm PT
Please explain how you've come to this conclusion. ^^^
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 2, 2013 - 11:11pm PT
i guess if you can believe life could grow out of a pond and organize its own DNA once. It could do it over and over again?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
Let's imagine that ET comes out in a very big flashy way and everyone around the world knows we are indeed not alone. Then imagine ET steps up to the microphone and says, "Oh, and by the way, we also seeded life here on Earth and we have been manipulating your DNA over millions of years. We are your god."

Now, everyone around the world including Evolutionists would faint, or have a heart attack. Everything they believed is a house of cards and is not true and foggy at best.

Then believers, Christians, Messianic Jews and Gentiles would stand-up and say, "Bunk. We know who you are and we know you would do this near the end. We know who your father is, Satan. You are not HaShem. You are not Adonai. You are not Elohim. We know who G-d is and he reigns only, the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. They are one.

Deut. 6
Sh'ma Yis'ra'eil Adonai Eloheinu Adonai echad.
Hear, Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

Barukh sheim k'vod malkhuto l'olam va'ed.
Blessed be the Name of His glorious kingdom for ever and ever."




True believers hear the voice of G-d and follow him. We will not be caught off guard.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2013 - 12:23am PT
So why would God put the Ark on the Moon knowing we would find it?

God could easily give us illrefutable proof of His existence. But then there wouldnt be need for us to seek Him out. The whole reason for this life is for us to learn to look within, not out at the moon. Everytime I hear a story about someone seeing Jesus in a piece of toast, I rebuke the devil. If your looking for a sign, ur faith might be low? Maybe work on ur personal relationship
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 3, 2013 - 12:30am PT
Klimmer, Thanks for keeping us up to date. I was interested to hear this govt official come forward. I think it will take more than one.

THEORY of evolution

That's right THEORY. Evolution works pretty good but there are these like special Engineers who run around screwing with things. (my personal experince, no scientific evidence, YET)


Notice how government and corporations work on this planet. Same thing in the greater galaxy, just many thousands of years ahead of our little lemonade stand here.


Fuk GOD. He can't get jack done. I'll take 'im on any day, any where.

Kilmmer, Haven't you read "Gods of Eden"? You should know what a "custodial" religion is. Not to mess with your faith. That is YOUR right and freedom. Just pointing this out.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 12:53am PT
Aug 2, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
So why would God put the Ark on the Moon knowing we would find it?

God could easily give us illrefutable proof of His existence. But then there wouldnt be need for us to seek Him out. The whole reason for this life is for us to learn to look within, not out at the moon. Everytime I hear a story about someone seeing Jesus in a piece of toast, I rebuke the devil. If your looking for a sign, ur faith might be low? Maybe work on ur personal relationship


Blue,


In the word of G-d, there are mysteries and details that go way beyond and way before the time of the flood. There was a time when Angels existed for millions perhaps billions of years before Adam, the first man, Homo sapien, who was made in the image of Elohim.

There was a time when Satan, Lucifer, before his fall of pride and arrogance was the most beautiful angel and he had very important responsibilities and he moved among "The Stones of Fire," the terrestrial planets. It's in the Good word. G-d puts it there for us to learn about it and seek and know these mysteries. To everyone whom seeks and knocks HaShem answers. He wants us to know. That's why he put it there or allowed it to be put there. Don't be scared of knowing the full truth. It's not going to change the truth of Adonai that you already know.

Is the massive Mothership, or Ark, on the Moon somehow related to the Fallen Angels, or their offspring, the Nephilim, who were men of renown and men of old, aka the Greek gods of legend? Very well could be.

It doesn't change the truth of Who G-d is, and what we are to do, and who has redeemed us, Yeshua HaMashiach. He purchased our souls with a price of personal sacrifice that not one of us can ever repay.

Baruch HaShem.
Pate

Trad climber
Aug 3, 2013 - 12:55am PT
hey klimmer, god spoke to me today.......and he told me he hates you. just like everyone else.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 01:02am PT

Aug 2, 2013 - 09:55pm PT
hey klimmer, god spoke to me today.......and he told me he hates you. just like everyone else.


Pate,

He came down and allowed himself to be beaten, then hung on a Roman Cross, and then Crucified, which is by far the most horrible and painful death. He did that for you and me to save us. A price has to be paid.


That's how much he hates us.


(sarcasm if you didn't get it)
Abram

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:05am PT
Gotcha. So he made us, but he made us imperfectly, so to fix things he created a son for himself and sent him down to be tortured and killed by us, and now it's all better. Ooooookkkaaaaayyy...
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:09am PT
Klimmer: Re Pate's comment:

hey klimmer, god spoke to me today.......and he told me he hates you. just like everyone else.


My ex-wife's Baptist parents from the SE explained that all the evidence humans have found that proves the Bible is fiction: is simply God testing us to see if we are true believers in Biblical history.

If we fail the Biblical-history belief-test, then we will burn in hell.

So


Do you think she would punish non-believers with hell, for not believing there is an ark on the moon?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 01:16am PT
"And who do you think did this? Aliens!" Lol.

My kids bust up when they see him on TV with his hairdo.


I enjoy History Channel's, "Ancient Aliens." Watched nearly all the shows. But they are too quick to accept that the aliens seeded life and they have been manipulating us and our DNA for a long, long time.

Well, obviously I don't buy that. That's what they want us to think. I think its a last days deception, and I think people who don't truly know G-d, but are still seeking to know the truth (that's good to seek to know and want to know!) are being deceived.


The answer to everything is not Aliens, or Aliens must have done it.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:21am PT
I can't stand documentaries and shows about aliens. WEAK evidence. Big holes in the bucket. I've never seen one that didn't have large illogical connections, odd time association, geologic contradictions, and huge leaps of faith required.

Hey man, I wanna believe, but I need some quality.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 01:25am PT
Fritz,


The Book of Nature and The Book of G-d are in agreement.

The Universe is very old 14.7 to 14.8B years. Our Sun, Sol, is about 5B years old. Earth is about 4.56B years old. The Moon about 4.5B.

The Bible describes a very old creation. G-d himself is called "Ancient of Days." In Hebrew, a day is a period of time. It can be 12 hours, 24 hours, 100s, 1000s, millions, or billions of years, or like the 8th day of creation, eternity, no more time.


All I can say is that they should read Dr. Gerald Schroeder's book, "The Science of God."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:32am PT
I don't know Russ' idol from Adam but is he like the poster boy for Hirsute Luddites?
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 3, 2013 - 08:28am PT
I'm half amused and half concerned for the future of our high schoolers,


School boards don't usually appraise teachers by their lawful, private preoccupations and pursuits...OR internet postings.

If they did...the dozens of pornography addicts on ST forum wouldn't be acceptable as teachers in state schools.

As long as dear Klimmer teaches prescribed cirriculum well, follows rules of conduct and doesn't abuse or mislead the kids...they really lack performance based reasoning for refusing his contract.

I'm going to be careful with this critical denigration of ST members relative to their professions. A spite driven busy body in someones local school district or workplace could concievably apply pressure that might affect someone's career.
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 3, 2013 - 09:06am PT
I doubt Klimmer talks about any of this stuff at school. I imagine he's quite professional in that regard. Not because he thinks its the right thing to do, but because his ass would get fired quicker that Willie Nelson hitting the bong.
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:30am PT
Russ, please post picture of yourself with the "Kramer" hairdo

Klimmer (our own K-man)...what's with the G-d stuff? he whose name must not be mentioned?
paganmonkeyboy

climber
mars...it's near nevada...
Aug 3, 2013 - 10:33am PT
my gods is this thread still going ? that alone is proof that God exists...or that There is No God...I forget which...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 3, 2013 - 11:43am PT
If they did...the dozens of pornography addicts on ST forum wouldn't be acceptable as teachers in state schools.


is that a faith based judgement, a fact based judgement, or personal bias?...guess it depends on your definition of faith, or fact, or science, or pornography, or addiction,..or bias, or teacher...



Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 3, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
is that a faith based judgement, a fact based judgement, or personal bias?...guess it depends on your definition of faith, or fact, or science, or pornography, or addiction,..or bias, or teacher...



Your question would be better directed to those who administer education code in your own state who have fired at least two teachers with a pornography promoting past.

...or the judge who denied Stacie Halas appeal.

If a California education board could censure Klimmer for posting "Ark on the Moon" material on ST...they surely would have latitude to rebuke teachers who repost pornographic material. (I'm not refering to the Stone Nudes art material...but matter your board of education agrees is sleazy and detrimental to kids)
dirtbag

climber
Aug 3, 2013 - 01:13pm PT

Proving that Russ is the late Kim Jong Il's younger half brother by a white baby daddy.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
please stop giving Klimmer a hard time

the fact is that there is a lot more we don't know than what we think we know

i don't have to agree with everything he looks at, or agree with his world views, but his posts are significantly more interesting than those of his critics

he is diligently looking into things that are very uncomfortable to many

the main contribution of his critics so far has been to spur him on

restricting yourself to comfortable and acceptable information and world views is not the right way to extend the boundaries of knowledge and understanding

human history is strewn with world views which were ridiculed for many years before becoming authoritatively accepted, notably Aristotle, Ptolemy, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Tesla, Einstein, Hubble, and oh so many others

and there are still many people, perhaps even a majority, who reject the world views of some or all of those people

take it easy...we all have much to learn
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
^^^^

Outstanding post!
jstan

climber
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
human history is strewn with world views which were ridiculed for many years before becoming authoritatively accepted, notably Aristotle, Ptolemy, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Tesla, Einstein, Hubble, and oh so many others

An egregious omission

Alfred Wegener

As regards Tesla the contest with Edison has shifted to some extent as there are now high power transmission lines operating DC.

As regards Klimmer I suspect with his thread title
very OT, but of high interest
Klimmer was asking for a razzing. When you consider the state of his data.

goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
My cöck is a antenna and home base to many alien worlds, they say Klimmer is full of śhit, although on good days, when the signal is clear and white, the higher ups announced he is okay with jehovah and the butt probing aliens will only communicate with him about their disco on the moon.







BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
^^^Alfred Wegener; The drifter?
What's even more egregious is to leave the all time Drifter, Jesus of Nazerith out of that list!

His teachings on Truths are still unfathomable today;

"You have heard that it was said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."
But I Jesus say to you, "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?
Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brother only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect. Mat. 5:43
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Aug 3, 2013 - 05:29pm PT
he is diligently looking into things that are very uncomfortable to many

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 3, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
the dozens of pornography addicts on ST forum


Dozens of porn addicts? Shouldn't you start a fundraising thread?
monolith

climber
SF bay area
Aug 3, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
Not surprising, one loonie says take it easy on another loonie.

Klimmer enjoys being given a hard time, Cochrane. He can just spread his arms out and dream he is being crucified.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 09:23pm PT
A little midrash on Shabbat ...

Aug 3, 2013 - 07:30am PT
Russ, please post picture of yourself with the "Kramer" hairdo

Klimmer (our own K-man)...what's with the G-d stuff? he whose name must not be mentioned?


Little Z,


Yes, in Judaism to avoid offending and using the name of G-d in vain there are many ways to honor him without using his personal name. Judaism is very good at building safe fences around the Torah so as not to sin and offend:

HaShem: "The Name"

Adonai: "Lord"

Elohim: One of G-d's many names, and indicates a plurality to his nature, i.e. the triune nature of G-d.



G-d has many names throughout the Good Book, both OT and NT. But one in particular we are not to use or say and Judaism has made it an art at avoiding this name ...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2013 - 09:34pm PT
Tom C.,


Thanks. I appreciate your view.
lostinshanghai

Social climber
someplace
Aug 7, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
Jesus,

Can't believe how time flies. Klimmer did you ever check out those grid lines I gave to you years back in regards to the Los Angeles missile site when you were so preoccupied with that subject and looking for answers?

Not to change the subject.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Aug 7, 2013 - 08:03pm PT
As regards Tesla the contest with Edison has shifted to some extent as there are now high power transmission lines operating DC.

Particularly submarine cables, where AC doesn't work well.

Curt
TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:49am PT
Jennie-

Not sure what kind of porn could possibly be more "detrimental" to children than the sh#t they watch on TV all day... horrible corporate marketing masked in teenage melodrama and superficial non-sense pushed on children like crack cocaine... or.... people having some fun sex... I know which one I think is evil...
unless your view of humans acting like humans in the bedroom is tainted by some odd puritanical shame about using your genitals in a sinful manner.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
There is no god. We are just living here. No more, no less. We've evolved.

It wouldn't surprise me whatsoever if we found proof of life somewhere else, but don't confuse it with some sort of divine plan, because there is no god.
WBraun

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
We've evolved.


Nope .... we've devolved.

We are stupider than sh!t now .....
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Well Werner, we have evolved beyond apes.

We may be stupid as sh#t, but we have evolved.
WBraun

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
we have evolved beyond apes.


The apes are still here.

They have more brains than those stupid human apes running our world.

Just see those stupid jackasses fighting, waring, killing and poisoning everything they touch.

Stupid devolved idiots .....
dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
I love this thread. I'm happy to see it bumped. It certainly is entertaining!
little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
G-d has many names throughout the Good Book, both OT and NT. But one in particular we are not to use or say and Judaism has made it an art at avoiding this name ...

Klimmer,

thanks, that was educational
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Aug 8, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Nope .... we've devolved.

We are stupider than sh!t now .....

The theory of evolution doesn't say that evolution= becoming smarter. Further evidence that you don't know sh#t about science. There is no devolution!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devolution_(biology);

confusion is based on two conceptual errors: the idea that evolution is supposed to make species more "advanced", as opposed to "primitive"; and the idea that some modern species that have lost functions or complexity accordingly must be degenerate forms of their ancestors. Its use is therefore mainly historical apart from its use by creationists.


The level of stupidity on this thread from people who actually think they're intelligent is mind blowing.
WBraun

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
We know you're stupid and have a devolved intelligence when you take yourself so seriously in a thread like this .......
dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
Lol!!!! ^^^^^
dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 01:50pm PT
His last post was seriously great!
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
I'm totally comfortable with there being an Ark on the Moon. I'm not comfortable believing there IS an Ark on the Moon given the current evidence.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:41pm PT
Not sure what kind of porn could possibly be more "detrimental" to children than the sh#t they watch on TV all day... horrible corporate marketing masked in teenage melodrama and superficial non-sense pushed on children like crack cocaine... or.... people having some fun sex... I know which one I think is evil...
unless your view of humans acting like humans in the bedroom is tainted by some odd puritanical shame about using your genitals in a sinful manner.


TheTye,

I agree that much contemporary television is rubbish and fruitless in effecting healthy development of children. That circumstance, by no means, posits pornography as harmless or as "humans acting like humans in the bedroom"

Pornography's menace to children proceeds, in part, from the troubling shifts in attitude that it fosters. Replicated studies have manifest ...that display of distinct quantities of explicit pornography has a striking effect on how adults view women, sexual abuse and sexual relationships. This research is, in substance, unanimous in conclusions: Male individuals exposed to as little as 40 days of standard hard-core pornography:

1. Developed a greater sexual callousness toward women

2. Began to trivialize rape as a criminal offense or no longer considered it a crime at all

3. Developed distorted perceptions about sexuality

4. Developed an appetite for more deviant, bizarre, or violent types of pornography.

5. Devalued the importance of monogamy and lacked confidence in marriage as either a viable or lasting institution

6. Began regarding nonmonogamous sexual relationships as normal and natural behavior

Would you like a listing of those studies?



dirtbag

climber
Aug 8, 2013 - 11:47pm PT
I agree with a lot of that but the genie has been out of the bottle for quite awhile.
So now what?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2013 - 12:18am PT
Somehow I didn't hear about this until just yesterday. I was re-reading an article of David Flynn's on his website and then finally I ran into a memorial on-line for him. I can't believe it. He left Earth over a year ago to return to Yeshua and I didn't even know it. I'm just really sad. I will miss you David, my brother in Adonai. We never met but you taught me a great deal.

Sad :_(


Mark Flynn, David's twin brother talks about David Flynn and what he meant to him:
http://watchervault.com/david-flynn-bio/mark-flynn-on-david-flynn/

David Flynn's original website is still up:
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/

The David Flynn Collection
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF9JTQTTzSw

[Click to View YouTube Video]


I have both of his books:

Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars
This original book is now out of print. I paid a good amount of $ for my used copy. When I received it, I found to my amazement it was signed by David Flynn to someone else. I feel very fortunate to have it.

This book woke me up to "The Watchers," the Fallen Angels, that descended onto Mt. Hermon in Israel, which then led me to reading the Book of Enoch. I now know Lucifer and his fallen angels (his minions) had access to "The Stones of Fire," the terrestrial planets before the fall. I'm sure in time there will be much physical evidence to this effect out there when we get there. I think we have found it already on the Moon if not on Mars already, but then that's "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" isn't it? Thank you David for helping me to understand this truth.


Temple at the Center of Time: Newton's Bible Code Deciphered and the year 2012

An amazing book. Yes its about the Temple of G-d that was destroyed in 70AD and is prophesied to be rebuilt soon. Check out The Temple Institute in Israel: http://www.templeinstitute.org/temple_mount.htm

... they're getting more and more ready every day. And yes, Sir Isaac Newton was into Bible Code. Very much so. Yet he didn't find what he was looking for. He also studied and searched the physical dimensions and form of the Temple of G-d believing it had a code too. Well, David Flynn has worked it out. Both codes have now been worked out. See Micheael Drosnin's books on Bible Code for the other.
http://www.thebiblecode.com/?p=1



The following is a very advanced Theological study. Many won't accept this truth. But here it is anyway ... and thank you David Flynn for showing it to me. And no I don't teach this "Forbidden Secret Knowledge" in public school. But I sure think about these things on my own time. I'm willing to look into these very hard topics. Are you?:


The Angels were created before the Heavens and the Earth. They witnessed Creation over 14.8 B years ago ...

Job.38:1-7 (KJV)
[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

http://www.billygraham.org/articlepage.asp?articleid=4091


Lucifer's fall and taking 33% of the Angels with him. Thesse are now fallen angels ...

Revelation 12:4, 7-9 (KJV)
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.




After Lucifer's fall, we learn a great deal from looking behind the curtain where G-d reveals much, when HaShem allowed Satan to test Job as a reproof to Satan. And no matter how hard Satan tried, he couldn't get Job to turn against Adonai ...

Job 1:6-12 (KJV)
[6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[12] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.





Before Lucifer's fall from G-d. Note he had access to walk up and down in the midst, or among, the Stones of Fire, made of igneous rock; in other words, the terrestrial planetary bodies. After his fall he now only has access to planet Earth, (see above) and the ability to approach G-d in Heaven to accuse mankind and the Saints of G-d before HaShem.

Ezekial 28:13-16 (KJV)
[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
[14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
[16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


God brings destruction and judgement upon the escaping serpent Satan, and destroys, cuts to pieces, shatters, Rahab. Many suggest this was a 5th planet where Satan and many Angels often occupied. This now forms the Asteroid Belt. From this destruction we have the Late Bombardment period of time throughout our Solar System, bringing cosmic judgement onto the planets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/earth/earth_timeline/late_heavy_bombardment
http://www.universetoday.com/92375/new-research-casts-doubt-on-the-late-heavy-bombardment/


Job 26:11-13 (NIV)
11 The pillars of the heavens quake, aghast at his rebuke. 12 By his power he churned up the sea; by his wisdom he cut Rahab to pieces. 13 By his breath the skies became fair; his hand pierced the gliding serpent.

Psalm 89:8-11 (KJV)
[8] O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
[9] Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
[10] Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
[11] The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.


Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Christ, witnessed Lucifer fall from heaven to Earth ...

Luke 10:16-24 (KJV)
[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
[17] And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
[18] And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
[19] Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
[20] Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
[21] In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
[22] All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
[23] And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
[24] For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


There was an Angelic Age long before man was ever on Earth. They had cities. Then Lucifer's fall happened. Then severe and swift judgement from G-d. G-d wipes all life (again) and civilizations from Earth, cleaning the slate, without completely destroying Earth. G-d reboots life on Earth (again) bringing about modern man, Homo sapien, made in the image of HaShem, ...


Jeremiah 4:23-27 (KJV)
[23] I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
[24] I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
[25] I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
[26] I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
[27] For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.


Note how Jeremiah 4:23-27 parallels Genesis 1:2, and fits between Genesis 1:1, and Genesis 1:2. This is the Gap Theory. There is a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Jeremiah 4:23-27, along with other scriptures noted, fills in the gap. This was the time of Angels among "The Stones of Fire," and Lucifer's fall from G-d, leading to swift and severe judgement from G-d, destroying much of the surface of the terrestrial planets and destroying Rahab.


Gen.1:1-2 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Then G-d rebooted life again bringing about modern man.



Then we have Fallen Angels coming to Earth, about 200 of them the first time, mating with beautiful Women of Earth and having offspring called Nephilim. The Nephilim were the worst of both. They were half Fallen Angel and half Fallen Man. To see how bad this combination was, it was an abomination to G-d, read The Book of Enoch (1 Enoch). This is were we get the Greek Myths. There is some truth to the Greek Myths. Many of the characters are Nephilim.


http://www.biblestudytools.com/cjb/genesis/6.html

Genesis 6:1-9 (The Complete Jewish Bible)
1 In time, when men began to multiply on earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were attractive; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 ADONAI said, "My Spirit will not live in human beings forever, for they too are flesh; therefore their life span is to be 120 years." 4 The N'filim were on the earth in those days, and also afterwards, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; these were the ancient heroes, men of renown. 5 ADONAI saw that the people on earth were very wicked, that all the imaginings of their hearts were always of evil only. 6 ADONAI regretted that he had made humankind on the earth; it grieved his heart. 7 ADONAI said, "I will wipe out humankind, whom I have created, from the whole earth; and not only human beings, but animals, creeping things and birds in the air; for I regret that I ever made them." 8 But Noach found grace in the sight of ADONAI. 9 Here is the history of Noach.


Jude.1:1-25 (KJV)
[1] Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
[2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
[3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[4] For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
[5] I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
[6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
[8] Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
[9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
[10] But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
[11] Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
[12] These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
[13] Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
[14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
[16] These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
[17] But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
[18] How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
[19] These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
[20] But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
[21] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[22] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[24] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[25] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Jude




Some good reads on this:

The Book of Enoch (1Enoch)

All of David Flynn's books and articles ...

This forum discussion ...
http://www.christianforums.net/archive/index.php/t-4754.html?s=ebddf0960cb9174527a11e901634a705

The Science of God, by PhD Gerald Schroeder:
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/About.aspx

Rightly-Dividing Geology and the Book of Genesis Beyond the "Gap Theory" of Creationism
http://www.kjvbible.org/




The way I see it, The Book of Nature and The Book of G-d are in perfect agreement.




Anyway, I just want to remember a gentle, loving, intelligent, even genius of a man of HaShem. I'm eternally grateful for your insights David. I will always tip my hat to you. Thank you. You were way ahead of so many others and you weren't scared to step-out of the box.

Rest in HaShem Adonai Elohim's Shalom, my brother. I will one day see you on the other side with Yeshua HaMashaich, and the saints, the people of G-d, and the Heavenly Hosts of G-d.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Aug 9, 2013 - 01:05am PT
I agree with a lot of that but the genie has been out of the bottle for quite awhile.
So now what?


Difficult question, Dirtbag...

It is possible, of course, to suppress pornography on a child''s computer...most parents don't expend the effort.

The government has been quite successful in squashing child pornography but the critical juncture, decades ago, was convincing the public how toxic and dangerous child porn was. The debilitating material that's on the web now, won't be reigned in as long as the myth that hard core pornography is harmless, or even beneficial, continues on in the perceptions of a significant population.

Forntunately, many state school boards are advancing a no tolerance policy regarding pornography in the schools and employees who assist and abet in its promotion...
Mr Roy

climber
Seattle
Aug 9, 2013 - 03:45am PT
http://youtu.be/nFCU_Ld9snU
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Aug 9, 2013 - 08:40am PT
How the hell did this become a pornography thread?
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Aug 9, 2013 - 09:02am PT
Live your dream, klimmer, live your dream...
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Aug 9, 2013 - 09:18am PT
I think someone here found a hidden stash of the brown tabs from Yasgur's blowout...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 7, 2013 - 10:14pm PT
Enjoy!

Rob Skiba puts it all together in a way that is very easy to understand and draws from many great resources. He says what I've been saying only better ...


Mt. Hermon (הר חרמון): Winter Skiing on Mt. Hermon, Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp6A7n1KZAg

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Mythology and the Coming Great Deception (Rob Skiba) Full Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsdgRxvB_jE

[Click to View YouTube Video]





The Mount Hermon Roswell Connection (Rob Skiba) Full Movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOECn1ZAWu0&list=TL5b6gEFaeog4


[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Jan 13, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
Bumpitty-bump-bump
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
Perhaps Klimmer informed us already on another thread, but there's a recent discovery of a traffic light on Mars, indicating a highly advanced civilization. Or a conspiracy:


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/25/mars-traffic-light_n_5881322.html

Edit: I think I see half of Boba Fett's mask there too....
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:36pm PT
That's a truck with WMD's on it.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 25, 2014 - 04:51pm PT
Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!111
dirtbag

climber
Sep 25, 2014 - 05:13pm PT
Yeeesssss!!!!

NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Oct 7, 2014 - 12:28pm PT
C'mon guys, I can't keep this going on my own...

Just caught this on the front page of my yahoo news! Who knew how much Klimmer was ahead of his time in investigative reporting. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

http://www.examiner.com/article/10-mile-spacecraft-and-60-mile-highway-discovered-1968-moon-photo

Looks like they even did some color retouching to make it more clear.
TwistedCrank

climber
Released into general population, Idaho
Oct 7, 2014 - 01:19pm PT
Weak.

Kermit the Frog on Mars is all I've ever needed to know.

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 7, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
Captain Link, who's YOUR tailor?[Click to View YouTube Video]

That examiner.com site is infested with billions of tiny space lice. Don't go there! Your computer will thank you.
dirtbag

climber
Dec 1, 2014 - 01:38pm PT
Bump. Because this is important, people.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Dec 1, 2014 - 05:19pm PT
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Dec 1, 2014 - 05:24pm PT
It was coming, Bobba Fett has long been known to not signal for turns.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
"Aliens on the Moon: The Truth Exposed" SyFy Channel
2014 HD (1.5 hrs)

http://youtu.be/8kpFZW6OIKU

[Click to View YouTube Video]



(2.0 hr. Full Version with a bit more topics and evidence)

http://youtu.be/IQiYPFrh38o

[Click to View YouTube Video]
ß Î Ř T Ç H

Boulder climber
extraordinaire
Jan 23, 2015 - 08:14pm PT
^^ good voice here.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 23, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
Hey Klimmer!
jus wonder'in, what would it do for ya if they in fact found Noah's ark on the moon and brought it back and put it in a museum? What would it do for everyone, for that matter?
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 23, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
I haven't seen you on ST in a long time Klimmer. I hope you are doing well.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2015 - 07:35am PT
Yes, been busy with life. Thanks for caring. I've been snooping ST just haven't been saying much.

Climbing as often as I can as I go through this new chapter in my life. Rocks remain the same and that gives me comfort and something I can relie on not to change much, and they don't. The outdoors in G-d's creation and having the opportunity to talk with G-d gives me peace. The physical movement keeps the body strong and the mind clear. Climbing is therapy. Climbing is life. I'm glad he gave us the ability to do so. It's so simple in essence really.

Anyway, long HD video above is really good. Lots of people come out to talk about it. It's real and its a mind blow for most. The Bible said this would happen. We are not alone. It's good to know exactly who we are dealing with.

Next we need to talk about "Giants" on the History Channel. The Vieira Brothers are doing a great job and hanging in there under all the criticism. I hope they get a second season. The Nephilim (giant wicked offspring of fallen angels and fallen man -- hybrids if you will) were all over the world even here in great numbers in North America. Why has the Smithsonian lost so many remains that were given them and that is fully documented?

Now there's a controversy and conspiracy that is unbelievably mind blowing. Sometimes Universities and institutions of science don't play fair. Sometimes they practice and are the antithesis of science. Sometimes they practice:

Hiding the Truth
Truth suppression
Censorship
Misleading
Disinformation
Gatekeeping
Stonewalling


"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human beings."13 They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride, deceitfulness, etc., as anyone.”
David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (vol. 93, January-February 2005), p. 73.
http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/conduct-unbecoming


The Great Betrayal: Fraud in Science. Horace Freeland Judson. xvi + 463 pp. Harcourt, 2004.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0151008779/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?qid=1422114159&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Jan 24, 2015 - 09:23am PT
Klimmer posted
Hiding the Truth
Truth suppression
Censorship
Misleading
Disinformation
Gatekeeping
Stonewalling

It doesn't make a Benghazi acronym so I know it's not true.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Jan 24, 2015 - 10:25am PT

Here's a real mystery to wrap minds around. More obvious than some of the stuff on the moon.

http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-finds-mysterious-bright-spot-dwarf-planet-ceres-191633834.html
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 24, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
It's real and its a mind blow for most. The Bible said this would happen. We are not alone. It's good to know exactly who we are dealing with.

Citation required. And if you're gonna cite the Bible as authoritative, then you've failed your first history test.

Syfy is a bunch of hooey produced by cynical minds, and written for simple minds that have been blown but who still have advertising dollars to spend. Science fiction, Klimmer. Science fiction.

Skepticism mandatory.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 24, 2015 - 12:21pm PT
Ark on the moon?

One look at Noah's tub and you knew that thing was never gonna steer right.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 24, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
Why has the Smithsonian lost so many remains that were given them and that is fully documented?

Because they haven't, and the reason why is no such remains have ever been found or 'documented'. You could substitute 'sasquatch' for 'nesphilim' for equal effect and veracity.

Here's a real mystery to wrap minds around. More obvious than some of the stuff on the moon.

It is and the response of Marc Rayman, mission director and chief engineer for the Dawn mission, is exactly what you'd hope from scientist / engineer:

"Yes, we can confirm that it is something on Ceres that reflects more sunlight, but what that is remains a mystery"

Yes, we see it, but without more data we don't have the slightest clue as to what it is.

You could certainly speculate that it's god winking at us or a thermo-nuclear explosion from the war between the Cerians and the Dalarians - but, that wouldn't be science.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 24, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
Citation required. And if you're gonna cite the Bible as authoritative, then you've failed your first history test.

Syfy is a bunch of hooey produced by cynical minds, and written for minds that have been blown but who still have advertising dollars to spend. Science fiction, klimmer. Science fiction.

Skepticism mandatory.

Boy is that a circular argument.

Citations required from the Bible, prove it, but you can't use the Bible since it isn't an authoritative history. Lol

The Bible, the Tenahk (old covenant) and the B'rit Hadasha (new covenant) gives very specific details on our history, where we are at the moment, and our future to come. G-d tells us. You just have to read it. It's as simple as that.

The Good Book, talks a great deal about Lucifer and how he fell and all about his intended conspiracy, the Nephilim and how they came about and how evil they are, Lucifer's plan for our time and his "power of the air" and Yeshua saying exactly what would occur in the last days and how we would see signs and wonders and deception in the heavens that would be so unnerving that hearts will fail and if the time wasn't cut short, then even the elect would be lost. He told us what would happen and to be ready.

So RMuir, when the proverbial doo-doo hits the fan, we believers told you so. Maybe then you'll seek G-d. He is compassionate and forgiving, full of mercy and love. Some say the last days will be nothing like we have ever seen and will be G-d's last alter call for mankind to be saved. Don't miss it the chance to come back to G-d.

The SyFy program is good. I'm guessing you didn't watch it. They talk to many whom the world respects, the scientific community respects. Two Moon Walkers Mitchell and Aldrin have a great deal to say, including those who have worked with NASA and had direct access to those who were in NASA and had very direct and revealing private conversations where with technicians and scientists were very open and honest.
coolrockclimberguy69

climber
Jan 24, 2015 - 08:56pm PT
^^^ batshit or troll...YOU MAKE THE CALL!

rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 25, 2015 - 10:38am PT
^^^ I don't think that an exclusive "or" is necessary in this particular case…

proverbial doo-doo
That pretty-much sums it up.

Christian eschatologists, like you, have been raving about the end times for several millennia now and there's still nothing to show for it. See List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events for dates to add to your iCalendar.

The Bible said this would happen.
I'm calling your bluff… Where exactly—chapter and verse—did the Bible posit alien spacecraft on the Moon? Hmmm?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 25, 2015 - 11:12am PT
Dude, you have to be able to read the code.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 25, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
This is so bitchin'!
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:21pm PT
Welcome back Klimmer! Not that you were, gone. Just spreading your attention around life in a more balanced way.


RMuir - Great link to the Wikipedia Apocalypse page. I'm sure a dedicated researcher could expand this x100.

I grew up in the face of the US/USSR apocalypse threat. I used to believe in it quite a bit. But I cancelled my subscription to all things apocalyptic in the 1990's. Preparing for NO apocalypse is much more profitable.


I have a number of friends like Klimmer who firmly believe in alternate histories, conspiracies, and electrifying things. I even spent 10 minutes once listening to the great Mr Bridwell. He'll tell you some great things of which he is very certain.


I remain open but believe only what I can see. Keep the gobbledygook coming though. I love it!
Psilocyborg

climber
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
and deception in the heavens that would be so unnerving that hearts will fail

You sure you haven't been deceived?
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Jan 25, 2015 - 02:29pm PT
Re the Bible - Old and New Testament

Many people put a great deal of faith and significance into this document.

If you are into archaeology one of the greatest publications is Biblical Archaeology Review. It is superbly technical and well edited in it's mission. Very scientific.


I'd just like to state that the Bible itself is an artifact, one of the oldest.

What it says has been twisted and turned by by translation, editing, and people who typeset things.

Since many passages do not seem to make sense, people of faith often seek to "interpret" it. I prefer to blame the translator for not doing a good job.

Also, it may be loaded with marketing propaganda. I'm guessing some of the earliest Popes had some of that woven in to help boost conversions.


little Z

Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
Jan 25, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
some of the earliest Popes had some of that woven in to help boost conversions.

early popes also had things like hot irons to help boost conversions
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 25, 2015 - 04:12pm PT
In a few months a scientist will publish a new theory about the Moon that is amazing and just slightly less strange than Klimmer's ark, although somewhat better supported. I'm not kidding. You heard it here first.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Jan 25, 2015 - 04:17pm PT
It's good to know exactly who we are dealing with.

And who is that?
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 25, 2015 - 09:36pm PT
Chiloe - one of my favorite quotes about the origin of the moon was from Bill Hartmann from the University of Arizona. After giving a nice lecture about the serious issues with each of the origin theories of the time (1990ish) he said the obvious conclusion was that the moon did not exist. Tongue in cheek, but it got a good laugh from the audience.

For no good reason tonight I checked on some of the classic "nutcase" threads on Supertopo. Wow. When did americans become so ignorant and give up fact-based conversations? You see if everywhere from ST posters to Senators.
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:16am PT
Mike, you're right, and the explosion of conspiracy beliefs preferred to real science or history has become a great problem, because people act/don't act, vote and even bomb or shoot as if they're true. Hard not to see the huge role the internet plays in fanning conspiracy theories, but perhaps a large part of that is just feeding confirmation, organization and more righteous anger to people who are eager to believe conspiracies anyway.

There's recent research on this topic of "conspiracist ideation," it's something I've been meaning to read up on.

As for the moon, in another thread I've mentioned that current orthodoxy about its origin (via impact) may be coming up for revision. No conspiracies involved there, however.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 26, 2015 - 07:42am PT

There's recent research on this topic of "conspiracist ideation," it's something I've been meaning to read up on.


If you find a good article, please share!
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Jan 26, 2015 - 09:39am PT
Holy Shit! This thread takes me back!

I just saw the photo shops I did at the beginning of this mess and laughed my ass off!
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 26, 2015 - 11:34am PT
If you find a good article, please share!

Here's one that can be downloaded for free, and cites related earlier studies.

The Role of Conspiracist Ideation and Worldviews in Predicting Rejection of Science

Background

Among American Conservatives, but not Liberals, trust in science has been declining since the 1970's. Climate science has become particularly polarized, with Conservatives being more likely than Liberals to reject the notion that greenhouse gas emissions are warming the globe. Conversely, opposition to genetically-modified (GM) foods and vaccinations is often ascribed to the political Left although reliable data are lacking. There are also growing indications that rejection of science is suffused by conspiracist ideation, that is the general tendency to endorse conspiracy theories including the specific beliefs that inconvenient scientific findings constitute a “hoax.”

Methodology/Principal findings

We conducted a propensity weighted internet-panel survey of the U.S. population and show that conservatism and free-market worldview strongly predict rejection of climate science, in contrast to their weaker and opposing effects on acceptance of vaccinations. The two worldview variables do not predict opposition to GM. Conspiracist ideation, by contrast, predicts rejection of all three scientific propositions, albeit to greatly varying extents. Greater endorsement of a diverse set of conspiracy theories predicts opposition to GM foods, vaccinations, and climate science.

Conclusions

Free-market worldviews are an important predictor of the rejection of scientific findings that have potential regulatory implications, such as climate science, but not necessarily of other scientific issues. Conspiracist ideation, by contrast, is associated with the rejection of all scientific propositions tested. We highlight the manifold cognitive reasons why conspiracist ideation would stand in opposition to the scientific method. The involvement of conspiracist ideation in the rejection of science has implications for science communicators.
WBraun

climber
Jan 26, 2015 - 11:39am PT
On the planet earth mankind is the absolute cause and effect of everything .....
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Jan 26, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
So Werner, you are disagreeing directly with the good Senator Inhofe from the state of Oklahoma who is unfortunately the Chair of the Environment and Public Works senate committee. Here is what he said as recently as last week:

"The hoax is that there are some people who are so arrogant to think that they are so powerful, they can change climate. Man can't change climate."

Could you step in and straighten him out in this issue?
dirtbag

climber
Jan 26, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
Thanks Chiloe!
WBraun

climber
Jan 26, 2015 - 12:12pm PT
Mike Bolte

That senator can say anything he wants and he does.

Politicians can never be trusted ever to begin with.

But when we go against and abuse our natural environment then the climate on the planet will also naturally change to reflect either our mistakes or our harmonious nature towards it .....
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 27, 2015 - 08:25am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Of course, this can't be true since we have it on Good Authority that the Moon was created on the fourth day…

[Click to View YouTube Video]

The Goddard Space Center totally omitted the section about the Lunatic Ark…
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:01am PT
Klimmer - you really need to come to the light and believe in a proper religion! As a Pastafariani (aka Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster) I think you'd be far more enlightened...

Now for some real Science!

Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:18am PT
rmuir, stay tuned (couple of months) for a different theory about how the Moon came to be. The massive-impact hypothesis has a few problems.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:31am PT
Kev, that is a real classic!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Jan 27, 2015 - 09:32am PT
one page of looking and ??

,!

well the blizzard missed here

and after Judge Mathis,

I will read more
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2015 - 05:59pm PT
RMuir,

I'll get back. Very busy at the moment.

I will address Lucifer's history, and how it is key to understanding what is happening now and soon to be in our near future. Why we are facing an influx of Aliens globally, who they are, and what's their purpose in these end of age times. It isn't an end of time or an end of Earth, it is an end of an age of man's rule. Why we are in the last days now and it couldn't have ever been before our present time. Prophecy has to be fulfilled. Key prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the last age of mankind's rule on Earth comes to an end (thankfully cuss we really know how to screw things up royally). Also the Bible is in agreement with the Universe with an age of 13.8 B years and our Sun at about 5 B years and the planets at about 4.6 B. The Bible has no problem with any of that. You have to read The Good Book in Hebrew, the language it was written, and understand what happened between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2; a great deal happened.


Trivia Question:

By the way, how many Bibles did your famous relative John Muir own?




A lot. I think about 13. If I remember right.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:02pm PT
Prophecy has to be fulfilled.

Man, those come and go unfulfilled on an annual basis.
dirtbag

climber
Jan 27, 2015 - 06:26pm PT
Isn't it great that our public education system pays klimmer to teach high school kids science?

Yeah, I feel great about that too.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Trivia Question:
By the way, how many Bibles did your famous relative John Muir own?
A lot. I think about 13. If I remember right.

And you pulled this number from where? Based on your rather shaky grasp on reality evinced by your previous propositions, again, we'd better see a citation. A citation based on fact.

When John Muir died in 1915, his entire collection of books fell to his daughters. An unpublished inventory of his estate, prepared by his daughters, Wanda and Helen—evidently for probate purposes—listed, shelf-by-shelf, the volumes in the second-floor room of the "Big House"—now known as the Muir-Strentzel Home—which Muir used as a study. In this inventory, there were approximately 1,600 books; Helen took 280 volumes to her home in the Mojave Desert at Daggett, and the remainder stayed with Wanda and Thomas Hanna who, eventually, moved the books and bookcases to their new residence of Dr. Strentzel's old home about a mile from Muir's estate in Crockett.

After Wanda died, the library was transferred to her five children (principally, Richard Hanna), and these books were deposited at the Holt-Atherton Library in 1970. Hanna's collection of Muir's books was eventually donated to the Huntington Library in 1973.

Not all of the books on the 1915 list were acquired by Muir. Part of the library came from his wife's family, the Strentzels. John Strentzel's wife, Louisiana, had a strong religious (Methodist) bent and collected tracts, hymnals, and other pieties which were added to the bookshelves. At least eighty such books must have come from this source.

While not all of these books could be considered part of his working library, at least 350 had little practical or literary interest to Muir. Most all of the books in Muir's collection were acquired after 1880, once home, family, and wealth made it possible for him to read and store such a collection.

Many more details about John Muir's book collection can be found at http://www.pacific.edu/Documents/school-college/centers/john_muir/Fall2003.pdf

Even if you are correct that Muir "owned" thirteen bibles (which is questionable), this would not be surprising given the Victorian age in which he lived. Even so, this would be much less than one-percent of his collection. Not a lot.

Of course, your mention of this "Trivia Question" is a blatant attempt to insinuate that Muir ascribed to your bizarre, aberrant, and, frankly, batshit biblical hokum, and that his mention should lend some kind of imprimatur to your weird, self-delusional reinterpretation of the Bible. For all of Muir's apparent religious underpinning, his beliefs were grounded in Romanticism, Naturalism, and the New England Trancendentalists such as Emerson and Thoreau; his earlier religious ascription was decidedly New Testament, at best. John Muir's outlook was most certainly NOT that of a harsh, old-testament, anti-literate, fundamental Calvinist preacher like his father, Daniel. And you don't get to put on John Muir's mantle to bolster your views…

If you think that Muir's ownership of a few bibles means that he thought like you, then I've got a massive ark on the Moon to sell you.

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:29pm PT
I will address Lucifer's history, and how it is key to understanding what is happening now and soon to be in our near future. Why we are facing an influx of Aliens globally, who they are, and what's their purpose in these end of age times. It isn't an end of time or an end of Earth, it is an end of an age of man's rule. Why we are in the last days now and it couldn't have ever been before our present time. Prophecy has to be fulfilled. Key prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the last age of mankind's rule on Earth comes to an end (thankfully cuss we really know how to screw things up royally). Also the Bible is in agreement with the Universe with an age of 13.8 B years and our Sun at about 5 B years and the planets at about 4.6 B. The Bible has no problem with any of that. You have to read The Good Book in Hebrew, the language it was written, and understand what happened between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2; a great deal happened.

Dude, are you even remotely aware that you are deranged? Off-the-hook unhinged? Batshit crazy? I hate to be so blunt, but hey. You are a way, way fringe dude.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jan 28, 2015 - 01:31pm PT
This is the result of teaching children to believe in things without any evidence. Fancy imaginings. Sad, really, when there are so many amazing real things to learn and do.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 28, 2015 - 01:58pm PT
It is prophesied that we'll have truly bitchin' hi rez photos of Ceres by March.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 28, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
And Pluto/Charon by July.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 09:45pm PT
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:20pm PT
Trivia Question:
By the way, how many Bibles did your famous relative John Muir own?
A lot. I think about 13. If I remember right.

And you pulled this number from where? Based on your rather shaky grasp on reality evinced by your previous propositions, again, we'd better see a citation. A citation based on fact.

When John Muir died in 1915, his entire collection of books fell to his daughters. An unpublished inventory of his estate, prepared by his daughters, Wanda and Helen—evidently for probate purposes—listed, shelf-by-shelf, the volumes in the second-floor room of the "Big House"—now known as the Muir-Strentzel Home—which Muir used as a study. In this inventory, there were approximately 1,600 books; Helen took 280 volumes to her home in the Mojave Desert at Daggett, and the remainder stayed with Wanda and Thomas Hanna who, eventually, moved the books and bookcases to their new residence of Dr. Strentzel's old home about a mile from Muir's estate in Crockett.

After Wanda died, the library was transferred to her five children (principally, Richard Hanna), and these books were deposited at the Holt-Atherton Library in 1970. Hanna's collection of Muir's books was eventually donated to the Huntington Library in 1973.

Not all of the books on the 1915 list were acquired by Muir. Part of the library came from his wife's family, the Strentzels. John Strentzel's wife, Louisiana, had a strong religious (Methodist) bent and collected tracts, hymnals, and other pieties which were added to the bookshelves. At least eighty such books must have come from this source.

While not all of these books could be considered part of his working library, at least 350 had little practical or literary interest to Muir. Most all of the books in Muir's collection were acquired after 1880, once home, family, and wealth made it possible for him to read and store such a collection.

Many more details about John Muir's book collection can be found at http://www.pacific.edu/Documents/school-college/centers/john_muir/Fall2003.pdf

Even if you are correct that Muir "owned" thirteen bibles (which is questionable), this would not be surprising given the Victorian age in which he lived. Even so, this would be much less than one-percent of his collection. Not a lot.

Of course, your mention of this "Trivia Question" is a blatant attempt to insinuate that Muir ascribed to your bizarre, aberrant, and, frankly, batshit biblical hokum, and that his mention should lend some kind of imprimatur to your weird, self-delusional reinterpretation of the Bible. For all of Muir's apparent religious underpinning, his beliefs were grounded in Romanticism, Naturalism, and the New England Trancendentalists such as Emerson and Thoreau; his earlier religious ascription was decidedly New Testament, at best. John Muir's outlook was most certainly NOT that of a harsh, old-testament, anti-literate, fundamental Calvinist preacher like his father, Daniel. And you don't get to put on John Muir's mantle to bolster your views…

If you think that Muir's ownership of a few bibles means that he thought like you, then I've got a massive ark on the Moon to sell you.


rmuir,

I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all. I'm not saying he thought there a was a massive spacecraft on the backside of the moon near "Isak D" crater. How would he know? Lol.

Yes, John Muir was a believer of the Calvinist persuasion or otherwise. He also made mention many times in his writings that he at one time had memorized The Bible entirely (I can't imagine doing this personally), under the very strict direction of his father. I'm pretty sure he meant Old Covenant and New Covenant. They go together. You can't fully understand one without the other. The fact that he was a man of faith and he believed the Word of G-d, is fact, and that it flowered his prose is very well known. We all known that.

He was a man of faith and a man of science. He proved that the Sierras were sculpted by glaciers, and that Yosemite Valley was sculpted by glaciers and not a cataclysmic earthquake with the valley floor dropping out from below. His understanding of glaciology was at the time, due to his direct observations, was far advanced of many in the field of geology including that of Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey). An infamous argument regarding the origins of Yosemite Valley I mentioned above comes to mind with Muir being correct. He was a man of faith and a man of science, another example, in the long line of founding fathers of modern science, who were all men of faith and men of science: Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Newton, and yes to some degree we can even place Einstein in the list, since it can be argued he was a Deist, but had a Judaic upbringing when he was young, talked about G-d often even in his public writings, and he was enamored by Rabbi Yeshua, Jesus Christ, later in life.

Perhaps you forgot about this thread on ST, that you did post to that keeps popping up around April 21st, (well at least it did 2010 and 2011. I need to bump each each year, and haven't in a while. Mybad?):


http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1147931/The-Annual-Celebration-of-John-Muir-s-B-Day-and-Earth-Day

This link lists the Bibles he owned and its in the thread and a few of us discuss it ...

At the time I counted 13 Bibles. The original link I used isn't working anymore but the one another poster who made it first known to me, his link still works ...

http://www.librarything.com/catalog/JohnMuirLibrary&tag=bible

http://www.librarything.com/catalog/JohnMuirLibrary

http://www.librarything.com/profile/JohnMuirLibrary


Once again at the time I counted 13 bibles in a pdf listing his personal books he owned that this collection had.



From wiki:

"Geological studies and theories

Pursuit of his love of science, especially geology, often occupied his free time. Muir soon became convinced that glaciers had sculpted many of the features of the valley and surrounding area. This notion was in stark contradiction to the accepted contemporary theory, promulgated by Josiah Whitney (head of the California Geological Survey), which attributed the formation of the valley to a catastrophic earthquake. As Muir's ideas spread, Whitney would try to discredit Muir by branding him as an amateur. But Louis Agassiz, the premier geologist of the day, saw merit in Muir's ideas, and lauded him as "the first man I have ever found who has any adequate conception of glacial action."[23]

In 1871, Muir discovered an active alpine glacier below Merced Peak, which helped his theories gain acceptance. He was a highly productive writer and had many of his accounts and papers published as far away as New York. Muir's former professor at the University of Wisconsin, Ezra Carr, and his wife Jeanne, encouraged Muir to put his ideas into print. They also introduced Muir to notables such as Emerson, as well as leading scientists such as Louis Agassiz, John Tyndall, John Torrey, Clinton Hart Merriam, and Joseph LeConte.[citation needed]

A large earthquake centered near Lone Pine, California in Owens Valley (see 1872 Lone Pine earthquake) strongly shook occupants of Yosemite Valley in March 1872. The quake woke Muir in the early morning and he ran out of his cabin "both glad and frightened," exclaiming, "A noble earthquake!" Other valley settlers, who believed Whitney's ideas, feared that the quake was a prelude to a cataclysmic deepening of the valley. Muir had no such fear and promptly made a moonlit survey of new talus piles created by earthquake-triggered rock-slides. This event led more people to believe in Muir's ideas about the formation of the valley."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 28, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
loved the moon vids.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:08pm PT
Dude, are you even remotely aware that you are deranged? Off-the-hook unhinged? Batshit crazy? I hate to be so blunt, but hey. You are a way, way fringe dude.



BVB,


Yes we true believers are a peculiar people ...

1 Peter 2:9 (KJV)
"[9] But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

http://www.gotquestions.org/peculiar-people.html



But as the article teaches that isn't a bad thing (as you think) but a good thing. We are a people of G-d. And so can you or anyone else be. Salvation is for free you can't buy it. It's free for everyone. You just have to sincerely believe and ask for it. Trust in HaShem Adonai Elohim, through his Son Yeshua HaMashiach and you will be saved. It's Supernatural. It's a G-d thing. It's truly as simple as that. Salvation G-d made very easy to understand, even a child can get it. He did that on purpose. So many can be saved.

The deeper mysteries of G-d are another thing. But Salvation is the start ...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:18pm PT

I will address Lucifer's history, and how it is key to understanding what is happening now and soon to be in our near future.

Can't wait. Make sure you have bible passages to quote.

The name appears once in the entire King James translation, and is pretty clearly a translation error. It's a reference in Isaiah to an honorific title of Nebuchadnezer comparing HIM to the morning star ( The planet Venus) when he was defeated by Cyrus the Assyrian.

“How you have fallen from the heavens, O Hĕlĕl, son of the morning! You have been cut down to the ground, you who laid low the gentiles! (‭Isaiah‬ ‭14‬:‭12‬ ISR98)

Hĕlĕl Just means Morning Star:
Lucifer (/ˈluːsɪfər/ lew-sif-ər) is the King James Version rendering of the Hebrew word הֵילֵל in Isaiah 14:12.[1] This word, transliterated hęlęl[1] or heylel,[2] occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible[1] and according to the KJV-influenced Strong's Concordance means "shining one, morning star".[2] The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[3] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[Isa 14:12][4][5] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".[6] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as ἑωσφόρος[7][8][9][10][11] (heōsphoros),[12][13][14] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[15]~~wikipedia

and in the KJV:
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (‭Isaiah‬ ‭14‬:‭12‬ KJV)

Read it. There are no other references to the name Lucifer. No fallen angels, nothing. That stuff was invented centuries after the canon was laid down.
Isaiah just has the fall of the king of Babylon as the fulfillment of a prophesy in Daniel. Pretty good prophesy except that both books were written after the fact.

There aren't even any references to the Devil, only DEVILS in the plural, and then only four times.

Satan only appears in the New Testament. He isn't defined and it's clearly Essene and Zoroastrian in origin. That name just means Advisary and is used in different contexts each time.

You will recall Nebuchadnezer was the Babylonian king at the time of the captivity. He was defeated by Cyrus the Great (Koresh in the Hebrew)

Cyrus was then proclaimed the Messiah ( the anointed one) by YhWH himself. I think he's the first Messiah mentioned in the tome after the fall of the first temple.


“Thus said יהוה to His anointed, to Koresh, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and ungird the loins of sovereigns, to open before him the double doors, so that gates are not shut: (‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭1‬ ISR98)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:38pm PT
Lorenzo,


You are getting hung-up on a name. Lol.

Like G-d who has many names throughout the Good Book, and I mean many! and even a personal name we shouldn't say out of respect, the tetragrammaton, that you typed above in Hebrew, ...

so does the Angel he created that fell, Lucifer: aka Satan, the fallen one, the father of lies, the dragon, the snake, the deceiver, and the list goes on and on and on.

You are getting hung up on a single name. Lol. The Good Book is a lot deeper than that.

To have many names for a person or deity in the Good Book is very Hebrew, very Jewish, very Judaic. Names are very helpful to understand all the characteristics of that deity and/or individual.

What does Yeshua give to The Children of G-d when he returns? A new name that only he and they will know!

G-d is brilliant and amazing.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 28, 2015 - 10:41pm PT
It's not just a name. I challenge you to show any linkage between Lucifer and Satan.

Other than Isaiah is Gloating over the death of a bad king by a good king in his eyes, there just isn't any linkage.
There is no fallen angel there.

Show linkage with bible quotes. You can't just pick random names out of a book and claim linkage.

You are constructing your own personal theology. Some call that blasphemy. It got that guy in the New Testament in trouble.

And I didn't type anything I cut and pasted. The Hebrew proscription is against SAYING the name, not seeing it written. It's in the Torah.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 10:56pm PT
And I didn't type anything I cut and pasted. The Hebrew proscription is against SAYING the name, not seeing it written. It's in the Torah.


True but even in Judaism they build an additional fence around the Torah so they don't get near to saying his personal name by accident, that is why the tetragrammaton is replaced often in the original Torah written in Hebrew (except for scribed parchment rolled scrolls used in synagogue for Sabbath services) with ...

HaShem, "The Name"

Adonai, "Lord"

Elohim, G-d's plurality nature, the triune nature of G-d, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit


They do so out of respect. But everyone knows that it is a substitute for his personal name. It is a safe Jewish Rabbinic tradition.



The rest we are gonna have to agree to disagree.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:02pm PT
Haha, at this point I'm not sure anybody knows how to say the name. Hebrew is different than two millennia ago.

And I'm pretty sure you'll get some flack over the triune God with Jews. Heck, you might with Arian Christians.

Still waiting for where in the bible you get this idea of Fallen Angels and Lucifer.....
Chewybacca

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:17pm PT
...that piece of halibut is good enough for #*!~^.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

dirtbag

climber
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:19pm PT
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:26pm PT

Still waiting for where in the bible you get this idea of Fallen Angels and Lucifer.....

belay-on

Isaiah 14:12,
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

that was an easy one

nice talk!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 11:31pm PT
Haha, at this point I'm not sure anybody knows how to say the name. Hebrew is different than two millennia ago.


You are correct. From the time of the destruction of the Temple 70 AD/CE the way to properly pronounce G-d's personal name has been lost in Judaism. The vowel points in Hebrew came later after the destruction so we wouldn't forget how to properly pronounce Hebrew.

It was only really the High Priests who would say his personal name in ritual after a lot of priestly preparation, and never in vain, so you can see that the ordinary folks wouldn't say his name. They knew better than to. So you can see how they would forget since the priests don't have a temple and they aren't doing animal sacrifices as a result at this time. Use it or lose it as they say. And then only the priests would use his personal name ...

But even the forgetting how to properly pronounce the personal name of G-d is eluted to in prophecy. Read the Book of Revelation, when Yeshua comes back he comes back with a secret name written on his crown on his head that no man knew ... perhaps we forgot how to pronounce it?



Revelation 19:10-16 (KJV)
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.



By the way, count how many different names Yeshua has in the above quoted scripture. Names are descriptions of characteristics, and G-d has many. And so does satan, lucifer, the father of lies, etc. etc. etc.


Different names of Yeshua in the above scripture:

*Jesus

*G-d

*Faithful and True

*"on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself"

*and his name is called "The Word of God"

*Almighty God

*KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS




I count 7. I rest my case.

(For the moment.)
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 28, 2015 - 11:49pm PT
Keep resting. You'll need your strength to find either Lucifer or fallen angels there.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 29, 2015 - 06:28am PT
Cults - too much work. You could be reading some Raymond Carver or finishing those macrame spider fern holders but noooooo... you're dissecting The Greatest Boring Ever Told like it was a vacuum tube stereo schematic with the winning Lotto number kneaded somewhere deep inside.

That its 2015 and folks are still dry humping the Bible is flummoxing, but at least their kids are wise enough to give their limited supply if fks to more honest and relevant pursuits than trying to find the part where God hates fags for a rapt innernut fan base.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 11:57am PT
Wow, it is so amazing ... never fails.

Talk about G-d and the bitter hateful attacks and vulgar words just spew forth. Why is it when someone talks about G-d this always happens?

Rabbi Yeshua had a great deal to say about this type of behavior and the propensity of certain people to do this. Cause meet effect ...



John 8:44 (KJV)
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 12:04pm PT
Micah 4:3-4

"And He shall judge among many peoples, and reprove strong nations afar off. They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks – nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither teach battle any more. But each one shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, with no one to make them afraid, for the mouth of יהוה of hosts has spoken. For all the peoples walk, each one in the name of his mighty one, but we walk in the Name of יהוה our Elohim forever and ever. (‭Micah‬ ‭4‬:‭3-5‬ ISR98)

Micah is telling you that peace will come when each person can walk in the name of his own god.

You do believe in the bible, right?

Any word on the Nephilim and Lucifer being fallen angels ?
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 29, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
Bitter? Hardly. Hateful? Say what?

Bemused? Absolutely.

A stranger's crazy isn't my problem, but I do feel grateful to be who I am instead of the alternative.

It would be quite strange to look in the mirror every day and say to myself "I believe in spaceships on the moon piloted by hybrid demons", but then, I don't experience such delusions as 'real'. Perhaps I'm in the Matrix, and the joke's on me.

I work with guys diagnosed with schizophrenia and other psychological issues at the local shelter once a month, and this kind of stuff is their bread and butter. Some can quote scripture better than any preacher. Religion is like a salt lick for crazy, but that's fine. It provides an outlet, a focus, and an explanation for what occasionally rages inside them. Mainly, we just schlep the food and converse with them enough so they don't scare away the public housing officials during the application process.

This thread seems to be a public appeal for status and worth. "I know more about the Bible than you do plus I've got the inside info on that spaceship wake up sheeple blah blah blah." Then, once inevitably publicly humiliated, the poster becomes the heroic Defender of the Faith.

This behavior has become so cliche on forums like this that it begs for its own verb.

Salt licking?

Dunk tanking?

Hell, I don't know.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 29, 2015 - 01:08pm PT
Impossible. James Cameron would have been space-touristed that action already. It would explain the B17, though.

As is the Ark. Where's the History Channel documentary?

I rest my case.
chill

climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
Jan 29, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
Why we are facing an influx of Aliens globally, who they are, and what's their purpose in these end of age times. It isn't an end of time or an end of Earth, it is an end of an age of man's rule. Why we are in the last days now and it couldn't have ever been before our present time. Prophecy has to be fulfilled. Key prophetic events have to be fulfilled before the last age of mankind's rule on Earth comes to an end

Credulity of this magnitude just blows me away.
With so much real beauty and mystery in the universe, why would someone waste their time with this?
Chiloe

Trad climber
Lee, NH
Jan 29, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
For your safety though, seriously watch out for moon Nazis.

There's a Netflix movie about those, really. Not hilarious enough for me to get past the first 20 minutes, though. Instead watched Ascension, where Cylon 6 finally comes back.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 29, 2015 - 01:56pm PT
Jebus worked the End Times story pretty hard. "Get on the boat before it's too late!"

It's probably an very old one - annihilation must have figured large in the minds of early hominids for some very good reasons.

It's more about personal annihilation, though - an inconvenient reality we all face. How to deal with it? Escape reality is one strategy.

It's also about the pleasure of seeing one's enemies finally getting what they so richly deserve. Folks who pine for that tend to embrace the whole End Times thing.

The whole 'It's prophesied' line is just another form of 'Hey, it
's outta my hands. I'm just following orders." A moral disconnect if there ever was one. "Let's clean this place of all the riffraff." Nothing new there, either.

If the shite ever does come down, and it would appear that there may well be some self-inflicted pain on the menu in coming decades, God will protect his chosen - the very wealthy.

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 02:08pm PT

Jan 28, 2015 - 11:26pm PT

Still waiting for where in the bible you get this idea of Fallen Angels and Lucifer.....

belay-on

Isaiah 14:12,
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

that was an easy one

nice talk!

Nope, you ain't off the hook. Isaiah specifically links The fall of the Morning star( happens in cycles) to the fall of Nebuchadnezer. he's making a point about how God decides who's worthy ... Turns out to be Cyrus who becomes the new anointed one.


who were the Nephilim the sons of, again? The bible tells us once.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 29, 2015 - 02:14pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 07:21pm PT
Lorenzo,

Get up to speed on Satan, aka Lucifer, the Dragon, The Father of Lies, and many other names he has and goes by, and also his minions The Fallen Angels. And yes the fallen angels, a group of them did have offspring with earthly women, and the offspring are Nephilim. The Bible is very clear about this.

There are many very complete studies, books, articles that go into great thorough detail throughout the Tenahk (Old Covenant) and the B'rit Hadasha (The New Covenant). I'm sorry you can not see the forest through the trees. You are in a very serious theological hole you can't seem to get out of.

Study.

Survey of Bible Doctrine: Angels, Satan, Demons

https://bible.org/seriespage/6-survey-bible-doctrine-angels-satan-demons



I'm moving on to other arguments.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 10:03pm PT
Nope,

Not what the bible says. Here goes. The story starts with the genealogy of the line of Adam, ending here:

"So all the days of Lemeḵ were seven hundred and seventy-seven years, and he died. And Noaḥ was five hundred years old, and Noaḥ brought forth Shĕm, Ḥam, and Yepheth. (‭Genesis‬ ‭5‬:‭31-32‬ ISR98)

Then we get into the Sons of God thing:

"And it came to be, when men began to increase on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of Elohim saw the daughters of men, that they were good. And they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. And יהוה said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever in his going astray. He is flesh, and his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭1-3ISR98)"

So, pretty unmistakeable the the Sons of God married daughters of men. God, knowing everything, knows bad stuff is coming, so he limits man's span. The people before then are living, like, 900 years. For reference, Adam is called a son of God ( who else would be his father?)


Now here is the key part:

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Elohim came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, the men of name. (‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭4‬ ISR98)

(For reference, when I was born, there were Nazis on the earth in those days. Doesn't make my father or me a Nazi.)

So the timeline says the Nephilim were on the earth before there were children of the marriages being born, as well as afterward when the children were being born.

Even in the bible, children aren't around much before they themselves were born. Not even Jesus. The children can't be Nephilim.

And the children being born are the mighty men of old, not Nephilim. Alternatively in that passage, the Nephilim were the mighty men of old! But they are neither identified as fathers nor sons of anyone. The topic doesn't come up.


Notice the bible says nothing about fallen women. It says the daughters were good ( some translations say fair)

The only place the bible says who was the Father of the Nephilim is in Numbers. They are the "Sons of Anaq" , a Cannanite king. Three of them are named. They are Giants and Goliath (10 ft tall) is of their line. The King James Bible uses the word Giants where the Hebrew bible uses Nephilim.

The Egyptians mention Anaq in their records. He's one of the few early characters who can be identified from an outside source.

I think you need to study more. Try it for comprehension this time. You are letting doctrine ( and bad SciFi) dictate what the bible says. It should be the other way. Don't you believe the Bible is the sacred word of God?
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jan 29, 2015 - 10:52pm PT
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 11:05pm PT
You wouldn't like the misconceptions about Valhalla any better.

Did you know Odin is the first Santa Claus?

http://infolocata.com/mirovia/irrefutable-proof-that-santa-is-odin/
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 11:10pm PT
Moon Nazis aren't real?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 11:23pm PT
Lorenzo,

You are on your own planet theologically. And I mean alone. Perhaps you are starting the 1st Church of Lorenzology?


Listen to the Jews, they know the Tenahk (Old Covenant). The Messianic Jews also know the B'rit Hadasha (The New Covenant). The two go hand in hand. Both Books were written by Jews. They are Jewish books. G-d had them write it. It was solely their responsibility to bring The Good News to the world and to bring the Messiah to the world for salvation and they did. They carried the water for G-d for thousands of years. The Rabbinic Sages have studied the word of G-d since it was first written down in Hebrew. Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion, simply Judaism with the Messiah. Messiah has come as prophesied and to he died for the sins of the World. G-d takes bad things and bad events and turns them into good things.

Yes, they missed their Messiah, but G-d knew that would happen. They had a hard heart as a nation. But G-d loves his Bride. He has never left her for long or for good. He is a G-d of his word. He will keep his promises to the nation of Israel and the Jews. It was prophesied that they would miss the first coming of their Messiah as a nation, and the good news would go to the nations and it did, it happened. However, 10s of thousands of Jews individually came to know their Messiah in the first centuries after Yeshua went back to the father. They were the first believers. Judaic Synagogues would become Messianic Judaic Synagogues when the light went on and they received their Messiah. Then the Gentile nations got a hold of the Good News and radically altered it, and not for the better, and it became very anti-Semitic.

HaShem has made a way for the nation of Israel to return to G-d and one day soon the veil covering their spiritual eyes as a nation is coming off and they will believe and accept Yeshua HaMashiach as Messiah. They will cry for him as a mother cries for her only begotten Son.

The age of the gentiles is rapidly coming to a close and G-d turns his attention to the Nation of Israel to save his chosen people.

Lorenzo, don't start a new religion. Too much confusion out there already. Seek G-d and ask a Messianic Jew or a Messianic Rabbi for spiritual guidance and help.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 11:25pm PT
I at least, can read. I just follow what the good book says.

You follow what priests say. They all say something different. That's why we have wars.

I didn't know you accepted YHWH had a Bride. Most modern Judeo-Christianity doesn't accept Ashura.

The folks three millenia ago did, though.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 11:45pm PT
Yes, I listen to what The High Priest says for sure, and to do what he says to do. Sometimes I fall flat on my face and fail. But he pulls me back up, dusts me off, and puts me on the path again.

Our High Priest is non other than Yeshua HaMashiach. Adonai. G-d. Emmanuel. Lord of Lords, and King of Kings.

And you should listen to him too. You're into your own erroneous interpretation of the Word of G-d and that is how we get Mormonism, Church of Scientology, driving off the road recklessly, and many other bad turns that lead to spiritual ruin.


Galatians 1:8 (KJV)
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."


By the way, that would be a Fallen Angel that would attempt to do that. They are tricky buggers for sure. They can even appear as an Angel of Light. They are deceivers. They are liars. Don't be fooled.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 29, 2015 - 11:56pm PT
‘I am יהוה, and there is none else – there is no Elohim besides Me. I gird you, though you have not known Me, so that they know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is none but Me. I am יהוה, and there is none else, forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil. I, יהוה, do all these.’ (‭Isaiah‬ ‭45‬:‭5-7‬ ISR98)


Do not the evils and the good Come out of the mouth of the Most High? What? Should mankind complain, A living man, because of his sins? Let us search and examine our ways, And turn back to יהוה. (‭Lamentations‬ ‭3‬:‭38-40‬ ISR98)

Forget Satan and moon ships. Turn to God.

I'm pretty sure you don't know the origins of Satan, either.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:07am PT
Notice the bible says nothing about fallen women. It says the daughters were good.

good job narrowing it in. do you really think those guys were 900 yrs old, or the planet is 6000 yrs old? the bible is a spiritual manual, and must be traversed as so. what's the spiritual wealth of a man/woman = Man,of a bodily life span being reduced from 900yrs down to 120yrs? the part about Love i don't hear many talk about is, how to love oneself. there tries to be a lot of talk about "loving ones neighbor", when Really isn't that all about "loving ones self"? Frankly, coming from a material world, by passage from a mother and father, i can decifer the love that can happen between a man and a women APART from everthing else. There's nothing like it on the planet. Along with that it becomes reproduction. Where else in reproduction do you see that streamlining of love? So without reproduction, or the material need, where could there be Love?

If God, the God of Love, is spiritual(he must be because he aint here), and also the "One" God. Why does it take two of us mortals to understand Love? IE, man and woman, man and grandmother, man and daughter, and yes man and man.yes i said it!

it would be hard to express Love being only One!?

Could this be the downfall of the spiritual world?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:15am PT
Don't look at me, I'm not the one who thinks fallen angels and Lucifer got it on with somebody's daughters.

The ark on the moon, though....
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:28am PT
i hear ya dude

but whatever entices Love. know what i mean
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:30am PT
Nice concept. Nobody seems to be going there on a global scale.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:35am PT
i hear a lot of peoples talk about uninhabiting the 'I'.

but how are we to love one another if we can't first love ourselfs?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 30, 2015 - 12:38am PT
i sure like ur words Lorenzo
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 30, 2015 - 07:04am PT
I know enough Hebrew to know that Elohim is plural. What gives, monotheists?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 30, 2015 - 07:32am PT
^^^the father, son, holyspirit triune, try sucking that through a straw.
Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Jan 30, 2015 - 08:54am PT
You religious guys need to go love yourselves. Hopefully with a thorny cross.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:32am PT
I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all.

Balderdash and poppycock. You hoped to ally your canted biblical worldview with that of a man of science and letters. You, of course, never counted the number of books John Muir owned about botany, geology, Roman history, biography, or poetry. You have an agenda and you were looking for fodder to feed your fixation.

Muir owned a few bibles, sure. But an inspection of the extent library shows that many of these were New Testements, and not collections of pre- and antediluvian mythologies. Please don't attempt to fantasize about, or simplify Muir's complex and subtle religiosity to suit your own beliefs.

Muir was decidedly NOT a Calvinist. He memorized the Bible because he had to "endure" his father's literalist dictates, and avoid beatings as a child. It's unlikely he would have done so if his mother had played a greater role in his upbringing, and if Daniel hadn't been such an unreasonable and overbearing fundamentalist. (And we all know what a fundament is…) There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.

Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
Jan 30, 2015 - 10:32am PT
I just mentioned it as a fun fact. That is all.

Balderdash and poppycock. You hoped to ally your canted biblical worldview with that of a man of science and letters. You, of course, never counted the number of books John Muir owned about botany, geology, Roman history, biography, or poetry. You have an agenda and you were looking for fodder to feed your fixation.

Muir owned a few bibles, sure. But an inspection of the extent library shows that many of these were New Testements, and not collections of pre- and antediluvian mythologies. Please don't attempt to fantasize about, or simplify Muir's complex and subtle religiosity to suit your own beliefs.

Muir was decidedly NOT a Calvinist. He memorized the Bible because he had to "endure" his father's literalist dictates, and avoid beatings as a child. It's unlikely he would have done so if his mother had played a greater role in his upbringing, and if Daniel hadn't been such an unreasonable and overbearing fundamentalist. (And we all know what a fundament is…) There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.

Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.


rmuir,

You seem to be very upset by the fact your famous relative was a man of faith and a man of science. You seem to want to distance yourself from his faith and discount it anyway you can. Sorry you can't. John Muir is who he is.

It was a fun fact. And it did prove my point.


Title:
The Spiritual Lives of Great Environmentalists: John Muir, Calvin DeWitt

Journal Issue:
Electronic Green Journal, 1(24)

Author:
Johnson, William Ted, Scottsdale Public Library

Publication Date:
2006
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/1835687g



Spirituality

It seems unanimous that John Muir was among the world’s most important
environmentalists. While many factors and events from his childhood to his
accident causing temporary blindness undoubtedly influenced his choice to
concentrate on “God’s inventions rather than man’s,” our focus is on his
spiritual views. John Muir’s expressions of spirituality cannot be separated from his actions to preserve wild places. His spirituality and
environmentalism went hand in hand. They were inseparable. By focusing on
his spirituality, we have the best chance to understand his conservation
ethic. However, we must exercise great care so as to guard against dressing
Muir in our own cloak of spirituality. Like anyone else, Muir believed what he believed because of how he was raised, the time in which he lived, what he read, heard, and experienced. In the end, Muir’s own words shed the most light on his spirituality like his actions revealed his environmental
commitment.


Childhood

Born April 21, 1838 in Dunbar Scotland to Daniel Muir and Anne Gilrye, John
Muir was their third child and eldest son. He attended Dunbar’s common
school taking the usual subjects of instruction such as Latin. Additionally,Daniel Muir required his children to study the King James Bible, including the memorization of lengthy passages. When it was all said and done, John knew by heart all of the New Testament and 75% of the Old Testament. He participated regularly in the training and activities of the local religious community, such as church services and his overall thirst for knowledge was unquenchable (Miller, 2005). In 1849 Daniel brought his three oldest children to America. The rest of the family followed once a homestead had been established in the Wisconsin wilds.



Actions of Faith

No longer under his father’s direct influence, in 1861-62 while at the
University of Wisconsin at Madison, he often visited and preached to Union
soldiers at the state fair grounds, urging them to avoid temptation and live the Christian life. He was known around campus too as one eager to share his faith (Miller, 2005). In order to give something away, you must first be in possession of it. John Muir’s efforts to share his faith suggest that he was actually in possession of such a faith to begin with.


A Thousand-Mile Walk to the Gulf

Two thousand years ago our Saviour told Nicodemus that he did not know
where the winds came from, nor where they were going...

John Muir just referenced the NT.



My First Summer in the Sierra

This quick inevitable interest attaching to everything seems marvelous until the hand of God becomes visible; then it seems reasonable that what interests Him may well interest us. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe. (p. 60)

A vailed reference to the Book of Exodus (OT) when the actual hand of G-d was revealed.



My First Summer in the Sierra

I feel sure I should not have one dull moment. And why should this appear extravagant? It is only common sense, a sign of health, genuine, natural, all-awake health. One would be at an endless godful play and what speeches and music and acting and scenery and lights! - sun, moon, stars, auroras. Creation just beginning, the morning stars "still singing together and all the sons of God shouting for joy." (p. 98, 100)

Referencing the Book of Job in the OT.



We can go on and on through Muir's writings and see the direct influence of the Bible from the OT and the NT.

Read the complete research article above. It's very good. I provided the link.



John Muir was a man of faith, and a man of science, and a man who shared his Christian faith with others. And the memorizing of the entire Bible (or nearly so) influenced his writings, both from the OT and NT. How could it not? His love of G-d's creation and the right desire to protect what G-d has made is an absolute inspiration to so many people around the world including me.


And April 21st is a great day for a birthday ;)
dirtbag

climber
Jan 30, 2015 - 04:24pm PT
This is important, Sheeple!
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Jan 31, 2015 - 09:47am PT
You seem to be very upset by the fact your famous relative was a man of faith and a man of science. You seem to want to distance yourself from his faith and discount it anyway you can. Sorry you can't. John Muir is who he is.

Oh dear. You are, indeed, a self-deluded fool. Nothing could be further from The Truth™…

Muir has been dead for about one-hundred years, and so he's not here to defend himself. He was a Christian, like me, but whether he was a "Christian" like you is a decidedly different question. The faith system in which you believe—as so clearly expressed in this thread and others—is fundamentally distant from John Muir's. You seem to want to draft him for your team, but you're not even in the same league.

Believe what you will. Just don't project or impose your phantastical beliefs on others without objective, fact-based, historical evidence.

As I sit here looking out over the Crystal Range of the Desolation Wilderness, I think about the man who wrote about this area in his journal of Sept–Oct, 1878. I am in the midst of transcribing his handwritten scribbles into plain text for the Holt-Atherton Special Collections Library—his original words. So, I think I've a got reasonable measure of the man.

John Muir is who he is.

You may pretend you know who he is, but I have a much better idea about who he was—ideas grounded in evidence.

Go back to arguing about the fall of the Age of Man, the certainty of Lucifer, aliens on the Moon, and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We're sure that you know all the answers… Without a doubt. As foretold in prophesy.

Van Belle pretty-much nailed it.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:02am PT
I got a kick out of Muir's Early Rising Machine. I mean, who does that?

Interesting cat.

Now back to the Salt Lick for Crazy Channel.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
There is almost nothing in Muir's history to indicate that he an old-school, Old Testament believer in such things as Lucifer, prophetic invasions of celestial aliens, or any of the other nonsense that you posit.

Muir found evidence of God in nature and in science, and not in the weird interpretations of ancient collections of early Hebrew consonants.


rmuir,

I certainly don't know all the answers, but I'm certainly willing to look and be open to new evidence and new information in regards to the answers.

You have made some serious erroneous claims regarding Muir's faith. I'm just pointing out that you're wrong and you don't like that fact.

I never said Muir believed in aliens, (heck we've only come to know these things for certain recently, and have been asking who are they? and why are they here?) you've somehow tried to claim that I have.

But I can prove he believed in the whole Bible, The Tenahk (OT) and the B'rit Hadasha (NT) and he did indeed believe in lucifer, satan, the devil or whatever name he is known by throughout The Bible, and he even made reference to the devil in his very public famous writings and testiomony before congress. And yes he believed in Angels too. I've already shown he made reference to the Angels at the beginning of creation, as told in the Book of Job. Why wouldn't he? He believed the whole Bible in its entirety and not just bits and pieces like some people.

He was in many ways a Bible scholar, a Prophet for G-d's created wilderness that is full of natural beauty and that shows forth the characteristics of G-d, The Creator and The Master of The entire Universe, or Universes if you so desire.



http://vault.sierraclub.org/john_muir_exhibit/life/defense_of_wildlife_fleck.aspx


In 1867, two years after the close of the Civil War, Muir set out on foot to walk from Indiana south to Florida in order to botanize and observe wildlife. When he arrived in northern Florida, he was struck by the totally callous attitude of people for alligators:

"Many good people believe that alligators were created by the Devil, thus accounting for their all-consuming appetite and ugliness. But doubtless these creatures are happy and fill the place assigned them by the great Creator of us all. fierce and cruel they appear to us, but beautiful in the eyes of god. They, also, are his children, for He hears their cries, cares for them tenderly, and providers their daily bread."


There are so many paraphrases from the Bible in the above JM quote, and he does indeed speak of The Devil, (I like to say the devil, little d). And he even alludes to satan's descriptions from The Good Book, ... he has an all consuming appetite and seeks to devour those people who are unwary and unprepared ... he is described as a monster and dragon in The Good Book too. G-d does indeed care for all his creation and not one will fall without him being there (all NT).


http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5720/

His testimony before congress to save Hetch-Hetchy ...

"Nevertheless, like anything else worthwhile, from the very beginning, however well guarded, they have always been subject to attack by despoiling gain-seekers and mischief-makers of every degree from Satan to Senators, eagerly trying to make everything immediately and selfishly commercial, with schemes disguised ..."


JM knows the antics of satan very well indeed, and compares Senators and others to him.


That anyone would try to destroy [Hetch Hetchy Valley] seems; incredible; but sad experience shows that there are people good enough and bad enough for anything. The proponents of the dam scheme bring forward a lot of bad arguments to prove that the only righteous thing to do with the people’s parks is to destroy them bit by bit as they are able. Their arguments are curiously like those of the devil, devised for the destruction of the first garden. . . .

These temple destroyers, devotees of ravaging commercialism, seem to have a perfect contempt for Nature, and, instead of lifting their eyes to the God of the mountains, lift them to the Almighty Dollar.

Dam Hetch Hetchy! As well dam for water-tanks the people’s cathedrals and churches, for no holier temple has ever been consecrated by the heart of man.


I'm pretty sure JM knew lucifer, satan, the devil (or any other name the Bible (OT and NT) uses to describe this fallen angel), is a very real evil entity and in fact knew a considerable amount regarding his evil attributes very well, and could make appropriate comparisons to bolster his public arguments.




rmuir,

I would have to say that you have really ignored the true depth of your famous relative's faith in G-d, and JM's complete trust in His Holy Word.

Perhaps you should do an exhaustive study throughout all of JM's writings and see how often he paraphrases, quotes, alludes to The Holy Bible, G-d's Holy written Word. And not only that he uses very good cleverly written arguments from The Word of G-d to bolster his own arguments and descriptions of nature around him. I think if you did a study like that you would be stunned. Your Christian faith in turn would grow deeper.

I personally would love to see a study done like this. It would put JM in a more accurate and newer light. Kind of like what has happened to Sir Isaac Newton recently. We now know Newton's writings on G-d, faith, and spiritual matters far out weigh (in mass literally) his incredible scientific writings and discoveries.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2015 - 08:39pm PT
Now, you all must have heard recently in the media that after countless FOIA requests our US government has finally released "Project Blue Book" in its entirety.

Although I recall someone well known who was on that original study team, The Condon Report looking into Project Blue Book, and had come-out a while ago to say it was a white-wash designed to dismiss UFOs and had a bias from the beginning or had the directive to cover-up. This same individual had come out to say that some UFO sightings and phenomenon are indeed the real-McCoy and we do not know who they are. We are indeed being visited by something off Earth that has technological abilities far beyond ours.

(Edit: that someone is Dr J. Allen Hynek, who went on to set-up a scientific research group that studied UFO phenomenon, The Center for UFO Studies. Obviously he didn't buy into Project Blue Book or The Condon Report's white-wash findings.

Yes, he is a controversial figure. He was willing to step out of the accepted orthodoxy and look into things people have a knee jerk reaction to dismissing.

http://www.csicop.org/si/show/the_secret_life_of_j_allen_hynek/ )




Well it's got to have some interesting reading non-the-less ...




National Archives - Unidentified Flying Objects - Project BLUE BOOK
http://www.archives.gov/foia/ufos.html


US Air Force Times - Project Blue Book
http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/tech/2015/01/17/air-force-ufo-files/21812539/


Project Blue Book: US Air Force UFO documents revealed
http://m.bbc.com/news/magazine-30943827


Air Force UFO files land on Internet
http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/20/us/feat-air-force-ufo-project-blue-book/


Project Blue Book Archive
http://bluebookarchive.org/


Sad story behind the scenes ...
http://projectbluebook.theblackvault.com/






http://www.disclosureproject.org/access/es-testimony-that-explains.htm

Lt.Col. Charles Brown: US Air Force (Ret.)

"It is sort of strange but we send people to prison, we send people to their death because of eyewitness accounts of crimes. Our legal system is based on that to a large degree. Yet in my following of unusual aerial phenomena for the past 50 years, there seems to be some reason to discredit very viable and very reputable witnesses when they say something is unidentified…

"I do know that there are agencies of our Government that can manipulate data. And you can create or recreate [whatever you want]. Craft, intelligently operated craft, have basically violated our laws of physics on this planet. And they have done that for a long time. The fact that the Government at this point — I know we have been investigating since 1947 — has not come up with an answer, to me indicates that there is something seriously wrong. Are we this incompetent in science? I don’t think so. Are we this incompetent in intelligence? I know we are not this incompetent in intelligence. Now, Project Blue Book, when it was closed by Dr. Condon’s group, I have every reason to believe that this was a total deliberate whitewash….

"UFOs have been investigated for an extended period of time and the general public is not being made aware, fully aware — but are given only bits and pieces, programmed responses and things like that."




Behind the scenes history of Project Blue Book, and its bias and agenda:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/bluebook.html




http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Project+Bluebook

Project Bluebook

The last publicly acknowledged USAF investigation into UFOs, which started in March 1952. Its aims were to find explanations for UFO sightings, to assess whether they were a threat to national security, and to determine if the UFOs used advanced technology from which the US could learn. Reports were collected, analyzed and filed according to their results. No-one noticed anything was wrong with the project until one of the people on the investigation team sent in his own sighting. It was filed, but when he wanted to refer back to his report, it had disappeared. He then alleged that any reports that were both unexplained and could cause public uproar were siphoned off out of Blue Book to somewhere else higher up in authority, a claim that ufologists now see as fact. Blue Book was wound up in 1969 as a result of the Condon Report and one of its investigators, Dr J. Allen Hynek, went on to form the first scientific based UFO group, the Center for UFO Studies, in 1973.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Oregon
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:35pm PT
You can read all the secrets of project Blue Book here:

http://www.theblackvault.com/m/articles/view/Project-Blue-Book

Turns out a lot of the Unidentified Flying Objects were unidentified.

They have a good handle on the identified ones, though.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Jan 31, 2015 - 10:50pm PT
Klimmer i thought your 7:20 post was really great.

i'd like to hear your write on The John Muir Project!

could be a perspective the world needs?!(!?)

Bluebook?

well, i am the blue blocker
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Feb 1, 2015 - 07:11am PT
Juxtaposition can ofttimes help illuminate things…
Ob aliens: (heck we've only come to know these things for certain recently, and have been asking who are they? and why are they here?)
and
He was in many ways a Bible scholar

I'm sorry, but you wouldn't know scholarship if it hit you upside the head with the 1848 Strentzel family Bible. Nor would you recognize any subtle use of poetic license, literary allusion, or metaphor…

Really. We're just done here.

Wallow in your peculiarity, Klimmer, and enjoy the Rapture. You'll be missed when you're gone.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 1, 2015 - 08:01am PT
I had a friend whose uncle was a colonel who worked on Project Blue Book when it was still
classified. He told my friend "I can't tell you anything, but if I did you wouldn't believe me."
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
"And so it came to pass that John Muir, for no good reason, deliberately crashed the space ark into the moon"- The Bible. Then what happened?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 2, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
Funny, the insurance report claims the moon backed into his ark.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:11pm PT
The gift that keeps on giving.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
Post # 3000!

There's gotta be some kind of mystical significance.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 2, 2015 - 08:31pm PT
the winning number was three thousand+1
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 2, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
Hey Klimmer, serious question: is G-d a girl or a guy? Is the universe partiarchal or matriarchal?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 3, 2015 - 12:41am PT
Klimmer - that you think we are a veritable intergalactic Greyhound station is pretty much the definition of fantasy and indicates you lack even a faint grip on the reality-based implications of time, space, energy, gravity, friction, materials and / or [atmospheric] aerodynamics.

And the bizarre co-mingling of your entirely bent versions of both science and religion don't pass even the standard Comic-Con Wizard test. I mean, just how is it people arrive at places like this, scientology, People's / Solar Temples, Heavens Gate, and other twisted and cult interpretations of science and religion?
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 3, 2015 - 03:08am PT
Ghost Getz Post# 3 thousand!
Three thousand cheers ! this thread rocketed to stardom . . .

How far can you go in space in five years of time?
Fast or slow it must take you out of orbit.
this thread started in 2010 - five years!?
Stick a fork in it already, it's done.




Healyje, For the win!
Cork to stopper the bottle!
You can not put the gienie back in the lamp,
But you can stopper the bottle

1 ? is she a he or he a she if the entity's designation matters? She is both male and female?

There is always one in every crowd, and a fool to point it out ,
well that makes two in every crowd . . .
Must be why they call a group of crows a Murder.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 4, 2015 - 06:13pm PT
Started reading this last week; have made it to post 820. Holy sh#t....... this is only my second (and probably last) post here on the Taco but.....f*#k. Klimmer, don't know why, but I'm captivated by the insanity. Are you really a science teacher? Continue.
WBraun

climber
Feb 4, 2015 - 06:22pm PT
you think we are a veritable intergalactic Greyhound station

LOL ...

But !!!! I could care less what he believes.

But you people are so worried and care so much about what he says and believes that you become even more insane then the claims you make about him .....
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Feb 4, 2015 - 06:23pm PT
Somewhere out there a guy surrounded by intelligent design books is reading this thread and muttering "where do they find these f*#king people"
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
Feb 2, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
Hey Klimmer, serious question: is G-d a girl or a guy? Is the universe partiarchal or matriarchal?

The nature of G-d
http://www.jewfaq.org/m/g-d.htm

G-d does have aspects of both, both male and female attributes, but we aren't talking sex but his nature, his dual characteristics. He made both male and female and man was made in the image of G-d. G-d can obviously take on any form. However, I think his male attributes outweigh his female attributes since nearly always G-d is referred to in the masculine.

G-d has a triune nature. This is clear throughout the Tenakh (OT) and B'rit Hadasha (NT). Elohim is plural but in one. This is one of the things that many Jews miss. But the veil will one day be pulled off their spiritual eyes by G-d and they will come to know Yeshua as HaMashiach, The Messiah. It is foretold to happen. Many Jews today are coming to know Yeshua. And many Muslims throughout the world are having miraculous supernatural visions and dreams of Yeshua and coming to know him.

Perhaps we are rapidly approaching the end of the age for Gentiles when G-d turns more attention to the Jews and the salvation of Israel, as foretold in G-d's Holy Word.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 5, 2015 - 08:42pm PT
"Aliens on the Moon: The Truth Exposed" SyFy Channel 2014 HD (1.5 hrs)

http://youtu.be/8kpFZW6OIKU
[Click to View YouTube Video]


(2.0 hr. Full Version with a bit more topics and evidence)

http://youtu.be/IQiYPFrh38o
[Click to View YouTube Video]




I am coming back to this incredibly interesting video from the SyFy Channel and I'm going to indicate minute marks for the most interesting and quotable parts from very highly respected witnesses in the video for the lazy impaired among ST. I'm gonna hold your hand figuratively speaking.

These American Heroes are essentially coming clean and being brutally honest and disclosing. I know some of you can't take it, but its better to know now when you can stomach it rather than getting shocked to death later when it's openly revealed and there is no doubt. Many hearts will fail at that time from unbelief, and realizing how much they've been lied too.

Best be prepared.



By the way, if you believe in G-d, HaShem Adonai Elohim, and you believe his word completely, if you are a believer, then by definition you belief in Extra-Terrestrial intelligence and life forms.

By definition, aren't these entities off-Earth? Is not their abode primarily somewhere off-Earth?

If you believe in G-d then you believe in Extra-Terrestrials.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 5, 2015 - 10:05pm PT

If you believe in G-d then you believe in Extra-Terrestrials.

obviously. it tells us in Genesis.

but if God put the ark on the moon, He prolly did it soas we cant see it?

Jesus(the only name i know Him by) said, those that believe without seeing will be called Great in the Kingdom.

Selah
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Feb 5, 2015 - 10:34pm PT
Doesn't SyFy stand for science fiction?

No I haven't watched the film yet just making sure the "fiction" is still part of the "science".

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 5, 2015 - 11:16pm PT
I see what you did there.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 6, 2015 - 07:55am PT
Fun stuff!

Flip Flop

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Feb 6, 2015 - 07:59am PT
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Feb 6, 2015 - 09:16am PT
Ah yes… The God In a Nutcase Project

And, while we're at it, don't forget about CERN: Supercolliders, Subliminals, & Stargates: Illuminati's Plan for Satan's Arrival

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Feb 6, 2015 - 10:26am PT
You gotcher wormholes, n yer black holes, but mosly round here we jis got cornholes.
cintune

climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Feb 6, 2015 - 04:04pm PT
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 6, 2015 - 04:28pm PT
Time to wash my ejecta blanket.
dirtbag

climber
Jun 13, 2015 - 01:27pm PT
Bump!

Because, you know.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jul 6, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
I just finished reading this whole thing. Wow. Klimmer, the thought just occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, this is tied to the Jade Helm 15 military exercise to take over Texas via giant tunnels holding troops under Walmart stores. I mean, a Massive Ark on the Moon, Obama, Donald Trump, mysterious tunnels with no dirt, etc. etc., and we just might have a pattern here. Please disprove.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jul 6, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
the thought just occurred to me that maybe, just maybe, this is tied to the Jade Helm 15 military exercise to take over Texas via giant tunnels holding troops under Walmart stores. I mean, a Massive Ark on the Moon, Obama, Donald Trump, mysterious tunnels with no dirt...

Dude, you have seriously messed up.

Having "the thought occur" to you is one thing. But posting it on the internet?

You only have hours -- maybe even minutes -- before they come for you. Trying to run and hide is probably futile, but what is the alternative? Accept certain death?
Psilocyborg

climber
Jul 6, 2015 - 09:53pm PT
The only way to save your life now is to shop furiously at walmart to show your obedience
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 2, 2015 - 07:55pm PT
Any updates, Klimmer?
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Nov 3, 2015 - 09:38am PT
I've got nothin as far as updates. It's been suspiciously quiet. Not to alarm the gentle readers but has any one been reading the "Science vs Religion" thread lately? Holy crap!!!! I think their gaining on us! In the last couple of weeks those nutfolk have entertained a goat, a magical figurine goat, that, get this, looks more like a goat than a real goat. Before that it was that redundant white whale and before that it was intelligence gathering dolphins. They know about the dolphins. Amusing yes but I have to draw the line when they start posting pictures of Martain sunsets and making claiming it as a breakthrough in science. How original, give me a break. Is this what we want?
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 4, 2015 - 09:35am PT
I get so tired of Taco's TRs of 12b runout face climbs on verglass covered Patagonia granite and what not. It would be a shame to let this truely interesting thread die... so here's a relevent update just to keep it alive....


http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/472750/nasa-investigate-Charama-cave-paintings-india-aliens-ufo-visited-earth
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 11, 2015 - 05:22pm PT
http://www.ufosightingsdaily.com/2011/06/nasa-photo-is-proof-of-apollo-20.html?m=1

"Updated on Feb 6, 2015: CIA has been deleting videos pertaining to the city and EBE found on the moon. I suggest you download them before they succeed. I talked to William on Youtube 3 years before fakes were being put on Youtube. He is real and afraid for his life, but nearing the end of his life, he wanted to make this info public to get it off his chest. William is a hero, and will one day be noted as such in history books. SCW"


All I got at the moment. Lol
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 11, 2015 - 06:15pm PT
Yes, well what can we say? From the website Klimmer mentions:

"The truth is...they did Apollo missions 18-20 as covertly as possible."

My father worked for Boeing on the Saturn second stage in Huntsville, AL at the Marshall Space Flight Center. They tested rocket motors all the time and they shook our house. I witnessed two Saturn Five launches at the Cape. Frankly, it's not really possible to launch those things "covertly". "As covertly as possible" might be like shining spotlights on them as sirens warn everyone within 60 miles that a launch is going to take place and then broadcasting the whole thing on TV.

Come on Klimmer, you can do better........
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Nov 11, 2015 - 07:22pm PT
Pretty sure they did.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 11, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
Bitchen...
MikeMc

Social climber
Nov 11, 2015 - 08:32pm PT
I'm just waiting for the Anunnaki to return so I can get my monatomic gold fix while visiting there moon base. Hopefully Enlil doesn't still have a stick up his ass...that guy, what a buzz kill; I mean who kills 99% of life with a flood?

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 12, 2015 - 05:57am PT
Yeah, the whole notion of a 'covert' Saturn V launch is hilarious. Right up there with swapping out the Washington monument with an alien fake overnight.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 12, 2015 - 06:04am PT
it's early.

but too early for popcorn?

I think knot.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Nov 12, 2015 - 11:01am PT
Pretty sure that's quite telling.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Just wanted to honor NASA Astronaut Edgar Mitchell, 6th "Moonwalker." Sad he passes away and there is hardly a fanfare or peep.

Perhaps it's because he was so outspoken regarding UFOs and ET. He was a very brave American Astronaut hero to stand up and tell the truth (one of several NASA astronauts who have).

You knew the truth and told the world, thank you. See you again on the other side of eternity. RIP "Moonwalker" Mitchell.

http://www.space.com/31853-edgar-mitchell-apollo-14-astronaut-obituary.html?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-07-16/ufo-cover-ups-must-end-moonwalker-edgar-mitchell-says


Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
Lost Tapes Reveal Apollo Astronauts Heard Unexplained ‘Music’ On Far Side Of The Moon
"If you’re behind the moon and hear some weird noise on your radio, and you know you’re blocked from the Earth, then what could you possibly think?"
02/20/2016 12:52 pm ET
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/apollo-10-astronauts-reported-unexplained-music-at-moon_us_56c80662e4b0928f5a6c0679

Outer Space Music Pt 1 of 2 | NASA's Unexplained Files
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLZBrQ-Oq4&feature=youtu.be
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Outer Space Music Pt 2 of 2 | NASA's Unexplained Files
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QYRVCqwuYI&feature=youtu.be
[Click to View YouTube Video]


dirtbag

climber
Feb 21, 2016 - 05:36am PT

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 20, 2016 - 08:46pm PT
Lost Tapes Reveal Apollo Astronauts Heard Unexplained ‘Music’ On Far Side Of The Moon

Pink Floyd?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2016 - 10:39am PT
Yes, a lot of Pink Floyd jokes on all news article comments regarding this latest NASA story. Lol

Why did NASA wait to reveal that this had happened so many years after the actual event? Why did they classify it back then? We should have known about this event decades ago.

I would watch the links above on Youtube, and an Apollo astronaut really explains what it clearly is not. It's not radio interference and he explains why. Radio interference would have done this sort of thing constantly. NASA designed and guarded against that. This phenomenon only happened on the backside of the Moon for Apollo 10. It also happened during the entire time they were on the backside out of radio contact with Houston. It was recorded. They talked about it and made comments about it while it was happening for about an hour or so while they were back there. They also talked about not saying anything so they wouldn't jeopardize their participation in future missions. You come back talking aliens and ET and you're not flying again. Why only on the backside of the Moon? Very very weird for sure.

I think NASA should release to the public, the entire recording of the backside of the Moon for Apollo 10. Let us listen to the entire recorded backside sounds and the Apollo 10 discussions. That would be an incredibly interesting listen. Let us hear the whole thing.


There is definitely some weirdness on the backside of the Moon out of sight of Earth.


NASA releases recording of 'outer-space type music' from far side of the moon
By James Griffiths, CNN
Updated 11:20 AM ET, Mon February 22, 2016 | Video Source: CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/21/world/far-side-moon-music/index.html
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Feb 22, 2016 - 10:57am PT

"You hear that? That whistling sound? Whoooooo," says Cernan on the recording.

the "unexplained" nature of the sounds, the truth is likely more scientific than sci-fi.

A NASA technician on the TV show explains that the "radios in the two spacecraft [the lunar module and the command module] were interfering with each other."

Not so mysterious after all

it was just a whistling sound
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
And the NASA Apollo astronaut on another mission contradicts the radio interference hypothesis. Like I said watch the youtube videos from the Discovery channel that go into detail on this.

Sorry you can't keep saying "Swamp gas" as your pat answer. You can't keep saying "radio interference" as your pat answer. NASA designed against radio interference. If it was radio interference then they would be hearing it all the time on many different Apollo missions. They don't. Listen to Al Worden from Apollo 15 explain that.

This is something completely unique.


By the way the sound is a changing (modulated) wooooooooo sound. That's why they called it "outer-space music." And it went on for a long time, and only on the backside of the Moon. Very eery.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 22, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
So did the aliens on the moon escape Earth from catastrophe, or did they come from another solar system to colonize Earth with the moon as an intermittent space stop?

Please clarify Klimmer, I really need to know the truth.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
Ah yes, youtube - where all the real researchers really research their stuff.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
I'm sure it had something to do with David Bowie. In the end, all will be revealed.
dirtbag

climber
Feb 22, 2016 - 02:21pm PT

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Didn't know what time it was and the lights were low
I leaned back on my radio
Some cat was layin' down some rock 'n' roll 'lotta soul, he said
Then the loud sound did seem to fade
Came back like a slow voice on a wave of phase
That weren't no D.J. that was hazy cosmic jive
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 2, 2016 - 08:39am PT
Paging Klimmer.....

I never got an answer and I'm dying to know.

So did the aliens on the moon escape Earth from catastrophe, or did they come from another solar system to colonize Earth with the moon as an intermittent space stop?

Please clarify Klimmer, I really need to know the truth.
John M

climber
Mar 2, 2016 - 09:34am PT
tongue in cheek..

Look.. its not that hard to figure out. A million years or so ago some planet sent out a science mission to study the earth. They set up a monitoring station on the moon. Just like we have done in places like the arctic. At the time the Earth wasn't that interesting to study, because well we were mostly cavemen,, and over time the hard right Republicans on that planet took over and spent all their money on wars and such, and inflated real estate, so that the planet was broke and then the anti science people started complaining about the wasted money being spent studying a fledgling planet like the Earth, and so they pulled out, but left a bunch of buildings and a wrecked space craft that was too damaged to repair so far from the home planet.

I mean come on. These stories play out over and over again. This times it just involves a society that is lightyears ahead of us in technology, and to them, we were the penguins in the antarctic to be studied.

No big deal. Unless of course you are the penguin just now realizing that there are things out there smarter then you. heh heh

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 2, 2016 - 10:37am PT
Tongue in cheek John M? Me thinks not. You, sir, have described the Thetans.

Better read your L. Ron.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 2, 2016 - 12:51pm PT
Already answered the question way back at the beginning of this massive thread.

I think the whole UFO phenomenon (which is real) has to do with Satan (the prince of the power of the air), his minions, fallen angels, and the off-spring that fallen angels had with Earth women, the Nephilim. The Good Book goes into great detail on all of this. There was an Angelic age for billions of years before man was ever here of Earth. Before the destruction of the Earth after man was here, there was the time of Noah. Great sin the world over. I think the Nephilim tried to make an escape. They were half human and half angel. Strong. Very intelligent. Very wicked.

Nothing is new under the Sun.


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 2, 2016 - 01:37pm PT
That air scoop on top there looks pretty functional and aerodynamic for an interstellar craft.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 2, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
Man, I love the feel of turbolag, oldschool powersurge right there yeah.
Gene

climber
Mar 2, 2016 - 02:18pm PT
I enhanced the above photo.

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 2, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
the whole UFO phenomenon (which is real) has to do with Satan (the prince of the power of the air)

Satan always uses Huge Turbo scoops on all his spacecraft
It just looks so cool


So they're not from some far off planet that have come here to probe us?
Some many aliens? so many different reasons they're here?

Have the aliens admitted to be part of Satan's army?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 2, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
The whole UFO phenomenon is definitely real, but visiting aliens, satan and angels are not.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 2, 2016 - 07:04pm PT
Gene, my thoughts exactly!!!!! Pretty cool aliens to know about muscle cars.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Mar 2, 2016 - 10:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 3, 2016 - 08:10am PT
Jeez… This drivel sure has legs. (And it seems to only take one iterative wingnut to keep it going…)

The Apollo 20 was a mission which never got off the ground; NASA cancelled it, along with Apollo 18 and 19. Apollo 20 never existed, so posting doctored photos from a nonexistent lunar mission to bolster bogus claims is just about as useful to your cause as are the fictions of Nephilim, Satan, Noah, lunar aliens, and the Angelic Age. Your fantasies are anything but convincing… And no one here believes your nonsense.

Wikipedia piece on the Apollo 20 hoaxes:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_20_hoax

But go ahead, keep polishing your reputation as an unabashed unrealist.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 3, 2016 - 08:16am PT
For me one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole thing is that Klimmer is a SCIENCE teacher.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 3, 2016 - 08:29am PT
my lasting impression of this thread is simply that Klimmer has repeatedly stated that the "truth" is about to be revealed... over 6 years now... and that we are still waiting.

To fill in as we wait, the same old stuff is dredged up.

That is usually a symptom of a crank idea... it doesn't get stronger with time, it just stays on the edge of the possible (not that I think this is remotely possible).

I'm sure the thread will last the lifetime of STForum... ebbing and flowing... and serve as a pulse of sorts of the rather strange demographic of conspiracy believers who are sure their particular fantasies are real and being suppressed by "the authorities" who ever they may be.

Importantly, conspiracy theories survive in a strange evolutionary manner, eventually selected by a "fitness" landscape which prunes those parts of the "theory" that are demonstrably untrue, leaving only those pieces that cannot be challenged... and thus conveying the status as "possible."

Not everything that is possible is probable.

But it does make for interesting sociology.

Anticipating klimmer's criticism that I am not curious, I would say that I am very curious, but there are many things to be curious about and only so much time in which to satisfy that curiosity, so I choose to follow those curiosities which have a likely chance of being explained.

What is curious here, to me, is that anyone would believe this stuff... and that, at least, has a chance of an answer.
brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 3, 2016 - 09:15am PT
For me one of the most fascinating aspects of this whole thing is that Klimmer is a SCIENCE teacher

I wonder if he talks about this stuff with his students?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2016 - 08:17am PT
And yet so many founding Fathers of modern science were also men of faith. The essence of Natural Philosophy, to understand the physical world and the spiritual world. I would argue those who don't pursue both are using only half their brain.

Sir Isaac Newton did not discuss issues of faith and theology with his students and neither do I. And I've said this many times. Hopefully we are a little more free to speak our mind on ST. I would hope we are a little bit more open minded and free to pursue intellectual thought no matter where it leads in a public forum. Freedom of thought should blossom here.

Sir Isaac Newton was/is absolutely brilliant by all accounts, yet by far most of his writings have to do with Theology. He was very interested in G-d and knowing the nature of G-d. By studying science are you not studying the nature of G-d and how G-d does things? G-d is the most fantastic brilliant mathematician, physicist, and chemist the Universe or Universes have ever known. He should be he designed it. It's not chaotic but ordered by natural laws of nature. There are spiritual laws and there are natural laws. Get to know both.

Even Newton realized there was a time in our very distant past where we knew more and knew many secrets of the natural world and we had to rediscover them. He knew about the Nephilim.

He also predicted when Yeshua (Jesus) would return according to all his studies of the subject, 100s and 100s of pages of studies regarding this. His best prediction was not before 2060 AD.

He was way, way ahead of his time in so many ways. He was very blessed by HaShem with the gift of insight and intelligence. G-d bestows many gifts and blessings on his children, especially those who seek him and want a personal relationship with him. That's what he wants with everyone.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 4, 2016 - 08:56am PT
All I know is Jesus is gonna be pissed off if he returns...
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 4, 2016 - 10:08am PT
The sons of God coming in to the daughters of man just sounds so damn nasty doesn't it?

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 4, 2016 - 10:44am PT
Geez Ricky, it's part of the AERODYNAMICAL stuff, to reduce friction and improve mileage. When you're going interstellar you've got to have good mileage.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 4, 2016 - 11:00am PT
He also predicted when Yeshua (Jesus) would return according to all his studies of the subject, 100s and 100s of pages of studies regarding this. His best prediction was not before 2060 AD.

if the "He" references Newton, then it is important to point out that Newton didn't believe it was possible to make such predictions from the Bible, and did not make them himself except to show the futility in such an effort.

That is another interpretation, and a more scholarly one, then the posthumous-born-again appropriation of Newton's spiritual activities.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 4, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
Charles: Nope, this is the real deal. Klimmer actually believes this stuff. I ran across this thread a year or so ago and got totally sucked in; I hate to admit it but I've read the whole thing. It was like fascination with a poisonous snake. Klimmer, who is a science teacher, does most of his research on youtube, since that is where most conspiracy stuff is hidden in a purloined letter sort of way.

In the early days of the thread he was serial posting more than the Chief did; morning, during breaks between classes, at lunch, at home after work, at night, late at night, then all over again. I honestly don't know how he, at some points, had time to do normal living type stuff, like eating, sleeping, bathing, or talking to his family.

The religious aspect of this is probably what drives him, but I don't know why he fears to spell out G_d's name; I suspect G_d would be a bit forgiving and understanding, just as we allow the bacteria beneath our boots some leeway in the respect department.

It's a fascinating read, in a weird way.

Continue, Klimmer.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 4, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
Newton was spot on with his space ark prediction derived from his knowledge of the bible. This much we know for certain. Cork it Ed, we like to study too.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:05am PT
it is disappointing to see people who know so little pass judgements as if they were all knowing
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:13am PT
it is disappointing to see people who know so little pass judgements as if they were all knowing

Damn right. Although that's not to say that Klimmer's right either, with his gods and devils stuff. The real story is much more recent...

Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 5, 2016 - 09:27am PT
It was freakin' Tintin all along!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
Mar 4, 2016 - 11:00am PT
He also predicted when Yeshua (Jesus) would return according to all his studies of the subject, 100s and 100s of pages of studies regarding this. His best prediction was not before 2060 AD.

if the "He" references Newton, then it is important to point out that Newton didn't believe it was possible to make such predictions from the Bible, and did not make them himself except to show the futility in such an effort.

That is another interpretation, and a more scholarly one, then the posthumous-born-again appropriation of Newton's spiritual activities.


Ed,

Take time to watch, read, learn, and listen to scholars who have researched these studies that Newton took part in for over 30 years. A scholar talks about the 100s and 100s of pages that they have where Newton was trying to determine as close as possible when Yeshua (Jesus) would return. No one works on a problem, an investigation for 30 years, returning to it time and time again if they don't think it's possible to understand and possibly know the answer to.

Newton was into Bible Code. Newton was into studying the dimensions of The Temple of G-d and what secrets that might shed. He was heavily into prophecy, having written a book on The Book of Daniel. Many of these studies fall within the realm of Judaic Kabbalism.

Newton was far more than just one of the most gifted and brilliant founding fathers of modern science we have ever known, he was also a very devout man of faith and a student of the entire Tenach, the Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament. I think that truth gives you serious problems.

You can't take G-d out of Newton's science. To him the pursuit of truth, science and G-d were one and the same, which by the way is the essence of Natural Philosophy.

NOVA: Newton's Dark Secrets
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/newton-dark-secrets.html

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sdmhPfGo3fE

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 7, 2016 - 07:27am PT
Klimmer, Thanks for keeping this alive. I neither believe nor disbelieve but I know the truth is out there and I keep my eyes wide open.


As a professional typographer I have no faith in the document we buy in stores and call the Bible. I'd like to call for the Catholic Church to open it's vaults and give us the truth on Jesus.

We have the dead sea scrolls for the old testament. I can't read them myself but have little bit of trust in the translation since they are occasionally open to public view.


The new testament is trashed up with nonsense and marketing crap in my opinion. There would be no need for Jesus to come back if we could get a clean copy of his teachings.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:48am PT
They made up the stories in the bible, so it doesn't matter if you go to the dead Sea scrolls or not, it's all the same, stories that can not be verified, but probably stories that were made up, or exaggerated, or drug induced visions.

They had no idea what was really going on before science looked into it.
Everything was a mystery for them, the sun, rain, lightening, stars, good and bad, etc..

If someone said he is the son of God, how would you know if it's the truth or not, you wouldn't have any idea that they could have just made it up or there is an actual son of god.

It was easy to explain all unknowns with a simple sentence that made total sense at the time -- God did it

Now that we can look at our world and there are no reasons to ever say "God did it".

And now we can put the bible down and use it as a work of Fiction.
There is nothing in it that has any relevance to our everyday life, we know why they said what they did, "they didn't know better 2000 years ago".
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:52am PT
^^^ Are you suggesting we put down the Bible and pick up the Fryble?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 7, 2016 - 08:54am PT
No
Pick up a science book

I'm an atheist skeptic that believes science has the answers if you want them

You want the truth?
Ask a question that that asks for the truth, not for what someone said or taught 2000 years ago.

There are better truths out there
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 7, 2016 - 09:01am PT
I think that truth gives you serious problems.

no it doesn't, brilliant scientists, or more appropriately, scientists who have made brilliant contributions, have many much less brilliant ideas...

if anything, Newton's lasting contribution to science was the systematization of what we now call "The Scientific Method" most of the pieces he inherits from Galileo... but the introduction of formal hypothesis testing is the important ingredient that sets empirical fact on the same footing as the analytic process to create hypotheses, what we now call scientific theory.

Newton was so brilliant that his ideas regarding light seriously inhibited the entire British scientific enterprise, it took Maxwell to provide theory and Einstein to understand the implications of that theory before banishing Newton's interesting, but ultimately incorrect, views on light.

It's not saying that Newton wasn't an important figure in science, it is saying, as Newton himself would have agreed, that human authority does not exist in the face of the authority of nature.

By using Newton's methods, we have greatly expanded our scientific understanding of the universe, and the need for "the Creator" pushed farther and farther away in our explanations. While the "great ocean of knowledge" still remains out there, we have fathomed its depths, not in small part due to Newton's contributions.

But Newton's authority, on so many physical concepts, has fallen to the only authority he would have truly recognized, nature.

You can choose Newton for sainthood, and revere his every written word, but it would be a fool's errand.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 8, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
Mr. Klimmer is remarkably prone to project his strongly-held religious beliefs on to historical figures that he admires in an effort to bolster his own delusions of rigorous intellectual correctitude. 😜

Isaac, in addition to undoubtedly possessing a brilliant and inquisitive mind, could also be characterized as a crackpot in some respects. Newton, according to Klimmer, was a bible thumper like him; but Newton was also an alchemist and dabbler in other arcane occult fantasies. Similarities much?

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life_of_Isaac_Newton:
"During exhumation the hair from Newton's dead body was found to contain high levels of mercury, remains of desiccated hair were later found to contain four times the lead, arsenic and antimony and fifteen times mercury than in normal range samples. Two hairs contained mercury and separately lead at levels indicating chronic poisoning (Spargo & Pounds 1979). Symptoms of mercury poisoning exhibited by Newton were apparently tremor, severe insomnia, delusions of persecution or paranoid ideas, problems with memory, mental confusion, and withdrawal or decline from personal friendships, significant in the period of time, the deterioration of his relations with his protégé Nicholas Fatio de Duillier."

But, of course, none of this has anything to do with fictitious alien arks on the Moon…
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 10, 2016 - 09:31pm PT
Many other scientists are studying this question about Newton. They've already answered the question very well, I'm just deferring to their research regarding Newton ...

No doubt Newton was into Alchemy. He was interested in all fields of science, he was a renaissance man. Alchemy we now know is the beginnings of modern chemistry. Yes, he did experiments, inhaled, tasted, touched many substances and compounds he probably shouldn't have as we now know.

You can't separate his theology from his science. For Newton it came from the same source. As I said, there are natural laws of nature, and there are natural spiritual laws. The source of these laws are the same, HaShem Adonai Elohim -- G-d.


By the way, only ignorant people classify Newton's studies of G-d as the occult. Far from it. Occult practices come from and the tapping into dark spirits that are anti-G-d, anti-Christ. Studying the Bible, Prophecy, Bible Code, the Dimensions of The Temple, Biblical numerology etc. as it relates to the Bible are not occult practices but eschatology and Kabbalahism, a study within Judaism.



http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/physics/newton-dark-secrets.html

NOVA: "Newton's Dark Secrets"

From the transcpit ...

NARRATOR: Newton was eventually excused from becoming a minister. But he wrote more about theology and alchemy than science and math combined.

Only recently made available to the public, at the National Library in Jerusalem, these documents are now revealing that for Newton, religion and science were inseparable, two parts of the same life-long quest to understand the universe.

SIMON SCHAFFER: Newton himself wanted to design a universe in which God was absolutely present and absolutely powerful. There's an enormous irony there. In the 18th century, gangs of interpreters, most of them French, will take the God out of Newton's world. It's a very common image of what the Newtonian world was, that it was soulless, that it was mechanical, that it really wasn't theologically motivated at all.

GALE CHRISTIANSON: Now, ironically, that's very anti-Newtonian, because Newton argued that God had to be present, you couldn't read him out of the universe.

SIR ISAAC NEWTON (Dramatization): The most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful being.

NARRATOR: Newton owned more than 30 Bibles, and he examined them as rigorously as he did the natural world. Correlating Biblical passages with astronomical information, he re-dated ancient history, drawing up elaborate charts and chronologies that show civilization starting around 980 B.C.

JED BUCHWALD: I have hundreds and hundreds of pages of computations and workings and re-workings where he tries to probe this over a period of close to 30 years. Time and time again, he'll come back to it, calculating and recalculating, trying to make it work, just the way he tried to make his theories of light work.

NARRATOR: With the same fervor that he brought to science and math, Newton also combed the Bible for keys to the future.

STEPHEN SNOBELEN: What he was trying to do is determine when the end would come, when Christ would return, when all the apocalyptic events of the end times would, would come to a head.

NARRATOR: And that date is now alarmingly close: the year 2060.

JAMES FORCE: Newton is not a man who keeps his theology in a box that he brings out only on Sundays, and then a man who does his science as a working man the rest of the week. Newton sees his work as a seamless unity, and his project is to understand the truth of God.

PAMELA SMITH: Most people today think of religion and science as completely different spheres. In Newton's day, science, the investigation of the natural world, was a part of religion. It was...all questions, in some ways, ended in divine knowledge.

NARRATOR: Alchemy and religion might have continued to dominate Newton's thoughts, but in his early 40s, he received a surprise visit that would refocus him on physics. It was the astronomer Edmond Halley, now known for the comet named after him. He asked Newton an esoteric sounding question about planetary orbits.

EDMOND HALLEY (Dramatization): My question is this: What kind of curve would be described by the planets, supposing the force of the attraction towards the sun to be reciprocal to the square of their distance from it?

SIR ISAAC NEWTON (Dramatization): An ellipse.

EDMOND HALLEY (Dramatization): An ellipse? How do you know?

SIR ISAAC NEWTON (Dramatization): I've done the calculation.



By the way, to get the discussion back to what this whole thread is about ... when you study the Bible, when you study the end times discussed in The Good Book, eschatology, The Book does indeed have many things to say regarding what we would see in the skies near the end of this age. Remember it's not the end of the World, it's an end to an age, the end of a dispensation of time before another dispensation of time occurs. When something wonderful happens ...

We'll have to talk about it.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 11, 2016 - 12:27am PT
Some of our species' most powerful gifts are the ability to imagine, conjure and fantasize. But the application of those gifts are often driven by different motivations: fear, curiosity, whimsy, obsession, bolts from the blue, etc.

The compendium of religion, myth and lore stretching back into prehistory is an unbroken line of humans attempting to understand the nature of the world around us to fill in the voids of the unknown. The generation of an almost unfathomable number of gods and lesser deities over recorded history alone is a testament to our creativity in the face of the unknown. Prior to the development of science, myth / religion was how we answered the 'hard' questions of our existence and explained some of the fearful aspects of living and dying.

Science has dramatically shifted the balance of how we arrive at and hold answers when we ponder something unknown. It provided us with a shared process for achieving and holding common knowledge of nature which transcends generational, geographic, language and tribal barriers - it's not about adherence to the dueling mythologies of our ancestors. And I get that the the transition from myth to science has proceeded with a pace some societies can't absorb and that many have a hard time integrating it with cultural relationships, norms and behaviors rooted in myth, but at this point the demarc between fact and fiction is a sharp one compared to that of even a hundred years ago.

Somewhat ironic in all this is how the science and physics in the form of media and the internet are being used to not only cling to, but also resurrect and elevate myth; this thread is a good example of that. But that carries with it certain risks relative to the education and beliefs of our citizenry. For example, the cable 'science' and 'history' channels over the past decade have been making hay wrapping myth in faux trappings of science and endlessly sewing doubt about the veracity of science or giving the impression science has no answer for this or that fabricated and / or dramaticized 'mystery'. I personally consider it highly ill-advised and corrosive in terms of maintaining as educated a populace as possible.

In the end, 'of high interest' often simply means indulging in or pandering to doubt, fear and myth in ways I find not only counterproductive, but a case of once understandable ancestral instincts now representing a kind of addictive pathology I hope our species can wean ourselves of.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 11, 2016 - 03:23am PT
There has to be a gnome sighting every once in a while even given the foggy facts
it is disappointing to see people who know so little,
pass judgements as if they were all knowing
free thinkers thinking freely
Beyond convention or compelled by anything to stay with in an artificial norm...
Hmmm?
Beyond the norms of conventional thinking, not compelled to stay within any artificially
Constructed frame of thought.....
Not sure which or if there is any difference
Time to get the kids on the bus, I often panic as the yellow doors swing shut, is this the day
That the world will end? Is young love creeping up on one of my charges , if so what then?
It won't matter when


And the smartest guy I have ever known is playin' out nuclear energy vs all life scenarios
Playing it out
Underground,
but he is well attended. Gets grounding advise, from earth worn good, do good 'ers
how they show up here is the real mystery....
( he is way to grand to admit) or why the stoic son of a Miss Sardine, has not,
He don't posit what the hell his one LSD trip made him think?
I was there and it did seem that the world was ending in a bright & dark night sky,
flashes of darkness blinding out our sight of the moon light?...
The world went on
it goes on
& no reason to think
if that is what Mind do or is for,
no reason to experience things like
Non-existence any more.
It will be what it will be....

Or not...

This translates beautifully into French, Latin ? Not sure ? I'll try and get back to you
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 11, 2016 - 11:57am PT
That's Milou, not Rintintin, DMT.

Don't listen to Randisi. He's just showing off. Hoping we'll think he's all cultured n' sh#t cuz he read Hergé in the original French.

Us dirtbag types read it in English, and know the dog as Snowy.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
Ah...Tintin. My daughter and I started reading those when she was just a little squirt and ended up with the whole set. Good stuff.

'Tintin in the Land of the Soviets' (1930) and 'Tintin in the Congo' (1931) were the first two books and are worth a read, especially the Congo book. Herge was of course Belgian and it shows.

And yes, Snowy. And of course Captain Haddock, who would fit in here real good.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 11, 2016 - 12:41pm PT
My daughter and I started reading those when she was just a little squirt and ended up with the whole set.

Ditto for me and my sons (we named our two cats Haddock and Bianca). The boys are long gone from the nest, but I've still got the full set of Tintin books, and still read them once in a while. I truly think Hergé belongs in any conversation about great 20th Century literature.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 02:01pm PT
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 11, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
By the way, only ignorant people classify Newton's studies of G-d as the occult. Far from it. Occult practices come from and the tapping into dark spirits that are anti-G-d, anti-Christ.

Apparently, you don't know—or choose instead to misinterpret—the meaning of occult, forgetting that its origin comes from the Latin word occultus "clandestine, hidden, or secret". And given that Newton was an antitrinitarian, and certainly not an orthodox Anglican, he was dabbling in a brand of poppycock we might consider heretical. Undoubtedly, his brand of alchemy was banned outright in England. Hence, none of his most weird claptrap was published in his lifetime. For this reason alone, his massive amount of largely hidden work is very definition of occult!

http://www.enlighteningscience.sussex.ac.uk/learning_objects/student/science_and_religion/isaac_newton_on_religion

In the last three decades of his life [Newton] spent vast amounts of time attempting to give a true chronology of events preceding Christ, much of which depended on his redating of the voyage of the Argonauts to 936BCE. Oh yeah, let's redefine biblical mythology by way of redefining Greek mythology!

Ignorant, indeed!


But go ahead and ignore the overwhelming unreality of your massive ark on the Moon… By justifying biblical mythology using wacko Twentieth century mythology.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 11, 2016 - 02:06pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
rmuir,

We're gonna have to agree to disagree.

The secular world has a different definition of the occult than the world of Christendom has ...

The World of the Occult : A Christian Worldview Perspective
https://www.probe.org/the-world-of-the-occult/

Alchemy was banned because they were worried alchemists would discover a way to change other metals or other substances to Gold, and that would devalue the monetary system. Today we have found "The Philosopher's Stone." It's a fission nuclear reactor. We can take a test tube of Mercury and transmutate it through a nuclear reaction and change it to Gold. They've done so at UCIrvine. But no one will ever get rich that way. The cost to do so far exceeds the value of the Gold. Lol

I get it. To you, G-d, The Bible, Yeshua HaMashiach, having faith in all I just mentioned and anyone who believes in such are all just poppycock.

Well, we all face judgement. I guess you'll know then, but it will be too late to do anything about it. I suggest you figure it out this side of eternity.

Remember your famous relative John Muir was a strong believer. And not just a little bit. His faith is wonderfully celebrated in all the wonderful books he wrote.




For those who doubt the past existence of "The Nephilim," I suggest you read the entire Bible cover to cover, and here are 3 other really good resources:

Giants on Record: America's Hidden History, Secrets in the Mounds and the Smithsonian Files
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0956786510/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_of_12?ie=UTF8&dpID=61VT7IpEB1L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR100%2C100_&refRID=1ZGAZN00HC2T8TVRYF6M



The Ancient Giants Who Ruled America: The Missing Skeletons and the Great Smithsonian Cover-Up
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1591431719/ref=pd_aw_fbt_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=091GW342WKC2PSFDHT7W



Genesis 6 Giants Master Builders of Prehistoric and Ancient Civilizations Unabridged
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0972134700/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_of_8?ie=UTF8&dpID=51zkbRD6g9L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_SL500_SR100%2C100_&refRID=037GJWVQJQV7F5G01S44




The modern archeological world is very resistant, fearful, and purposefully participates in cover-up and disinformation regarding many discoveries that prove the established official story version of modern man's cultural history as put forth by the academic archeological world is incorrect. They have a great deal to lose.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 12, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
"The most outrageous lies that can be invented will find believers if a man only tells them with all his might." —Mark Twain, 1867.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 12, 2016 - 04:17pm PT
More blather and balderdash.

From http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/giantcoverup.asp:

It can't be that difficult, can it?
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 12, 2016 - 04:19pm PT
Well, we all face judgement. I guess you'll know then, but it will be too late to do anything about it. I suggest you figure it out this side of eternity.

Bingo!

"I'm going to create you because I love you, but I'm going to torture you for all eternity if you don't believe in the exact correct iteration of me while I intentionally obscure myself."

Yeah, no thanks.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2016 - 04:20pm PT
Oh come on Klimmer, Jesus Christ, 18' giants in America? I guess I ain't been following science, cause I never heard of them. Who would cover something like this up? Do you really believe this stuff? If I published a book about dinosaurs being aboard Noah's Ark and the earth being only 6000 years old would you believe it? Oh, sorry.

How about, and I'm just winging it here, birdmen in South America who lived in the Andes and built wings with feathers attached with wax and flew with the condors. That's why Machu Picchu was built, it was the home of the Inca Birdmen! The endless steps were just launching ramps.
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 12, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
Aww, whatsamatta, Winemaker? You don't believe sensationalist single party newspaper reports from the 1800s that don't have any physical evidence supporting them? Where's your sense of fun? ;)

Jesus Christ

Oooo, busted!
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
Ya got me. Damn. Now, what about my Birdman theory? No, not theory, truth. I've seen it in print (see above).
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 12, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
I bet those G_d damn giants have something to do with the ark. I can feel it.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 12, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
I bet those G_d damn giants have something to do with the ark. I can feel it.

Giants, my ass. I told you guys upthread what the real deal with the Ark on the moon was. How many times do you have to see photographic evidence before you admit the truth?

WBraun

climber
Mar 12, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
If Klimmer says there were giants then there were giants.

Modern people can't understand anything.

Whad do ya expect from people who's ancestors are monkeys ....

:-)
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 12, 2016 - 06:33pm PT
rmuir,

You're right that is a fake story. The Supreme Court never made any ruling regarding the matter. The Supreme Court has never heard such a case.

You're being lazy. Look into it. There are many discoveries that were documented and then shipped to the Smithsonian Institute, and the papers showing the shipment also exist and are documented. Then poof, the Smithsonian says they don't exist. It happened more than once.

Spanish explorers coming to the New World describe in their journals many encounters with the (living) very tall giant Native North Americans.

In our history, George Washington discusses the discovery of large skeletons and so does Abraham Lincoln.

The many burial mounds throughout The Ohio River Valley, many large skeletons were discovered buried there and observed and documented. There are many historical accounts of this.

But you have to be interested, read, and really look into it. I don't see you willing to do that.

Does our U.S. Government and their agencies sometimes hide the truth and lie? The answer is easy, yes, they sometimes do. It's been proven time and time again. Sadly.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:06pm PT
^^^^Just one wow? It sorta implies a double wow.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:12pm PT
coarse Captain Haddock,

you Coelocanthic, barnacled billygoat! the dog's Snowy, right. the puro
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Well, if the Supreme Court never ruled on it then it can't be true (science wise).

As regards the Birdmen of Machu Picchu (I'm responding to request(s) for information) they were of about normal human height for the time (5' 4") and weighed about 100 pounds (45 kg) . They made wings of feathers, attached with wax, and soared with the condors. Unfortunately, Mach Picchu is at an elevation of 7972 feet, which meant that they were too close to the sun to prevent heating of the wax holding their feathers to their wings. Normal candle wax melts at 115° F but, because they flew closer to the sun, the temperature at their altitude was 116°F. The wax melted, the feathers became disbonded from the wing structure, and the Birdmen of Machu Picchu plummeted to the mountainous terrain below and were, after their death, transported to the kingdom of Heaven to live eternal lives as sycophants to G-d.

Hope this helps. Check on youtube for validation.
WBraun

climber
Mar 12, 2016 - 07:54pm PT
yep .... modern 20th century sterile soulless people, the ancestors of monkeys, who know everything.

But the ancients knew how to fly by the sheer power of their souls .....
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2016 - 08:09pm PT
Randisi, can you provide youtube.com evidence of such? Then STFU. I can accept no other before it's time.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
Damn!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 12, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
All youtube evidence is now held in China, and China has blocked access to youtube. It's a catch-22!

It was a catch-22, but the Chinese haven't got as much control over what goes on in Tibet as they think they have, and I've been able to get some pictures from my friend Tintin's expedition a few years ago that may shed some light on this whole "Giants" thing.

I know Klimmer believes there's a massive cover-up of the evidence for the presence of giant aliens in the US, but, as I said, control isn't so tight in Tibet, and I think these pictures will show that the truth really is out there...


But long before they found any clue about the lost airplane, the party stumbled on something unexpected. Their find was "very OT, but of high interest"

When Tintin wished that he could learn what kind of giant could leave such huge tracks, he got more than he bargained for.

He was lucky to escape with his life.

So, there you have it. The Illuminati (spawn of the Nephilim) may have forced the Smithsonian to deep-six the evidence that giants walked the earth in America just a century ago, but brave Tintin has given me incontrovertible evidence that there were giants elsewhere.

Put that in your f*#king pipes, and smoke it, you doubters!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 12:47am PT
Lol. That was pretty funny. Made me laugh good ...

Hey I know you guys will doubt until you see it for yourselves and touch the physical evidences. However, even then you would probably still doubt. But the backside of the Moon is remote and giant hominid remains the world over are found, lost, and/or are soon forgotten.

There are incredible skull remains in South America in Musuems that are completely ignored by the science community yet they help inspire a huge Hollywood Indiana Jones movie. Even the Apollo 20 story helped inspire at least 2 Hollywood movies, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and Apollo 18.

It's like people are asleep and don't want to be awakened. People don't want their reality challenged.


The Top 10 Giant Discoveries in North America
by Hugh Newman and Jim Vieira
January 18, 2016
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/gigantes/esp_gigantes_15.htm

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 08:24am PT
Wow Ghost, thanks!! I never put it all together but now I understand. The Illuminati huh? AND Randisi has cartoonographic evidence of the Birdmen! It's a good day.
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2016 - 08:33am PT
People don't want their reality challenged.

That's pretty much true.

Americans are generally brainwashed into sterile.

They eat sterile foods, indulge their consciousness sterile whitewash, (lots of mainstream media), and then masquerade all that garbage as advanced knowledge.

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Mar 13, 2016 - 08:40am PT
none of the giants would be able to stop Curry!
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 08:53am PT
To add a bit of climbing content please refer to the last cartoonograph in Ghost's comment above. Note that the ice axe can also be used to protect yourself from giants. Always carry one. I do, all the time, everywhere, just in case.......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 13, 2016 - 09:10am PT
And while we're on the subject, that whole "Andean Birdman" thing is not without foundation, but it's not exactly what many people believe...

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 09:42am PT
Frankly, at this juncture, I suggest we put Occam's razor in Schrodinger's box and call it a cat. All this information, all the cartoonographs, I've become overwhelmed. Klimmer is............ starting to make sense.

Randisi, thanks for that cartoonograph; the Birdmen of Machu Picchu are real!!!!!

My G_d, a landing strip!

Edit: Why am I having so much fun with this? I'm sitting here laughing like an idiot.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 13, 2016 - 09:46am PT
Does Klimmer teach his students about giants and the ark on the moon?
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2016 - 09:53am PT
Yes ... he's teaching YOU right now.

You are his student ......
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 10:03am PT
Ghost, where do the Thompson Twins fit in to all this? Do they work for the Smithsonian suppressing evidence? The plot thickens.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Mar 13, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Werner, he has taught me nothing except that shaking my head too much makes my neck sore.
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 13, 2016 - 11:47am PT
Even the Apollo 20 story helped inspire at least 2 Hollywood movies, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and Apollo 18.

Wait, are you really using a TRANSFORMERS movie and a cheap sci-fi horror as evidence in your camp?
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
Mar 13, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Every time I see this Klimmer thread on the front page I quietly admit to myself he was right about 2 things:
1) It's very OT - definitely on solid ground with that call
2) It's of high interest - this is the one that gives me pause. I really wish Klimmer wasn't right about this being "of high interest". It doesn't speak well of us as a group.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 12:42pm PT
Mar 13, 2016 - 11:47am PT

I said ...
Even the Apollo 20 story helped inspire at least 2 Hollywood movies, Transformers: Dark of the Moon, and Apollo 18.

You asked ...
"Wait, are you really using a TRANSFORMERS movie and a cheap sci-fi horror as evidence in your camp?"


Only to make the connection that, that is how disclosure of the UFO/ET phenomenon is done subtly. The Apollo 20 story broke big in April of 2007 and got bigger and bigger and more well known. The 2 movies followed afterwards and borrowed heavily from the Apollo 20 story. That is how the UFO/ET phenomenon disclosure is done. Mix the truth with fiction. Now you have plausible deniability. The government can say it's all fiction as long as no one can prove the reality and truth of it.

But one day when everyone knows the full truth for themselves since we will all see it in the heavens wide open so everyone sees it and knows beyond a shadow of a doubt, as foretold in the Bible, then TPTB can point backwards and say, "We tried to tell you as subtlety as possible by leaking the truth in as many benign ways as possible, so we didn't have a War of The Worlds public negative reaction." They can say, "Why do you think there were so many Hollywood sci-fi UFO/ET themed movies over the years, with the number of these block-buster movies being released at exponential numbers? We tried to tell you."
Read: Luke 21:11 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2021&version=NKJV

That's how it works.

Here's a prime example ...

John Glenn Discloses UFO Presence on 2001 “Frasier” Show… (and a few more Astronaut-ical Tales)
https://kauilapele.wordpress.com/2011/01/04/john-glenn-discloses-ufo-presence-on-2001-frasier-show-and-a-few-more-astronaut-ical-tales/

Sen. John Glenn's Amazing UFO Statement On Frasier "COMPLETE FOOTAGE"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vO4iNhaQms0


looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 13, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
So, just to clarify my understanding, you're saying that ufo and alien movies are secretly being pushed and/or sponsored by the U.S. government to surreptitiously inure Americans to the idea of alien visitations to Earth?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
Yes.

The Deep Politics of Hollywood: Close Encounters with the Pentagon
By Robbie Graham and Matthew Alford

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article22893.htm


They've been doing it for a very long time. Like I said, it works both ways. Plausible deniability.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 13, 2016 - 01:40pm PT
I find most climbers have a high requirement for 'novelty' in their lives and I think, like anything else, that requirement s a bell curve across the demographic. I suspect Klimmer is afflicted by a more extreme form of this and is an outlier on the bell curve. Otherwise it's hard to account for such an unexamined and uncritical acceptance of fabricated nonsense and the more elaborate the nonsense the better. Would be a harmless obsession if he weren't a teacher.
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 13, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
In that case why are the aliens almost exclusively presented as malevolent enemies intent on enslaving or exterminating humanity? Why wouldn't they be pushing more of a peaceful galactic population agenda of comfort and leisure if they want us to welcome the idea of aliens, instead of perpetuating hate, violence and distrust?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
HJ,

I have said it many times, I don't talk about this stuff with students. So why keep bringing the teacher aspect up? There are many things that Newton wouldn't talk about with his students either.

I suspect you can't handle it. It rattles your reality.


The truth really IS out there: CIA releases thousands of declassified 'X-files' on aliens, flying saucers and other unexplained phenomena

By Dailymail.com Reporter
02:03 29 Jan 2016, updated 21:04 31 Jan 2016
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3422014/The-truth-really-CIA-releases-thousands-declassified-X-files-aliens-flying-saucers-unexplained-phenomena.html

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 13, 2016 - 01:57pm PT
I'm not rattled because none of it is reality - it's all nonsense. Have you ever taught physics? Did you listen to yourself when you did, or read the book? It doesn't seem like it or you wouldn't be constantly ignoring and bending the realities it describes.
cintune

climber
Ollin Arageed Space
Mar 13, 2016 - 02:13pm PT
There are teachers out there with much worse hobbies.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 13, 2016 - 02:16pm PT
But few as corrosive to science as this kind of claptrap which has grown exponentially with the internet.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
I teach Physics and Earth Science. Do we know it all HJ? Is pure science done? Is there no more to learn that we don't understand? We can't even say exactly what causes gravity. Some of the most basic questions we still don't have an answer for. Let alone harder questions, such as the Grand Unification Theory. We don't know how all of these laws work together as one, yet we suspect they do, from the moment of singularity in The Big Bang. So much we don't know.

We know so little, a grain of sand, in a Universe full of knowledge to be known.

Bob Lazar of 1980s fame and his disclosure of what we are really doing and hiding in Area 51, said the alien space crafts hidden there use element 115 and rides on self-generated gravity waves.

Our government has been forced to admit that Area 51 does indeed exist in a court of law, thanks to a lawsuit brought by those who were working out there with hazardous waste. Science has recently discovered element 115. We have now confirmed gravity waves. Bob Lazar was telling the truth and was way before his time, and the government was trying to desperately debunk him. Looks like he has been proven correct on 3 things he disclosed due to working in Area 51, and being on the U.S. Government payroll.
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 13, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
Waiting on your response Klimmer:
In that case why are the aliens [in Hollywood movies] almost exclusively presented as malevolent enemies intent on enslaving or exterminating humanity? Why wouldn't [the government] be pushing more of a peaceful galactic population agenda of comfort and leisure if they want us to welcome the idea of aliens, instead of perpetuating hate, violence and distrust?

Contextual clarifications included to save having to bounce between pages. My unedited question remains on the previous page.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 13, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Do you have the slightest inkling of the stability of 115 isotopes? And exactly how, even if there were a craft at area 51, which there has never been, but even if there were, how would anyone there have the slightest clue 115 occurred or was involved with any aspect of it?

And then there's 'self-generated gravity waves'. Do you have the slightest inkling of what a gravity wave is? Or how stupid it sounds that an object that would fit in area 51 could generate detectable waves or waves of any significance? Or, given how weakly they interact, just how ludicrous the idea is that they could be 'used' for any purpose by a craft of any kind? And once again, how would anyone at area 51 deduce that they used gravitational waves; I mean how would they pair some physical feature of a craft with a gravitational wave capability?

Both claims are ridiculous and embarrassing to hear from anyone claiming a basic understanding of physics.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 13, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
LEFH,

Hollywood has gone both ways. They have done many malevolent and benevolent UFO/ET movies and continue to do so. Perhaps now more malevolent.

I happen to believe the Worldwide UFO/ET is real. The question is who are they? The Bible has the answers. They aren't extra-terrestrial (well that can be debated), they are intra-terrestrial. Satan, Lucifer has "the power of the air" here on Earth at this time. He's been banished to Earth, along with all his minions, the 33% of the Angels who fell and went with Satan. They aren't who they claim to be. They lie. Their father Satan, is the father of lies. They deceive. That's what they do.

Even the famous scientist and non-believer Jacques Vallee figured it out a long-time ago. Jacques Vallee said aliens/ET have more in common with demonic forces expoused in The Bible than beings from another star system. I agree with him.

UFOs - Demonic Deception?
Crop Circles, UFOs & Animal Mutilations...
Signs of the Beginning of the End?
by Bob & Suzanne Hamrick

http://www.rense.com/general32/expose.htm


Take it up with Bob Lazar and others looking into it ...
http://www.gravitywarpdrive.com/Element_115

There is a stable isotope of element 115 theoretically. According to Bob Lazar they have it.


By the way another former Area 51 retired Lockheed scientist, Boyd Bushman, now passed away, confirms Bob Lazar's story ...

http://altereddimensions.net/2014/boyd-bushmans-area-51-deathbed-confession-alien-ufo-photos


UFO's with Boyd Bushman and his last interview on Area 51 and UFO's over Tucson, Arizona
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VA3HV_gfq80
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Dying Ex-CIA Worker Comes Forward About Area 51 & Aleins
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iQH11GW7w8Q
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
Healyje - my exact thoughts. Klimmer, info on half life:

Ununpentium has four isotopes with known half-lives, the most stable of which is 289Uup, with a half-live of about 220 milliseconds.

I hope the voyage is short 'cause that ain't a good fuel for a long trip. But, then again, maybe that's why the Ark has that air scoop and is all aerodynamical.........

I think the point is, Klimmer, to be a good teacher you have to believe and enjoy what you are teaching.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 13, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
Klimmer, I tried, I really tried. I tried to watch a youtube video, "TOP SECRET UFO TECHNOLOGY Russian Area 51 KAPUSTIN YAR". But it was bullshit; I couldn't take it, I had to stop. Stock footage of Russian planes, explosions, people talking and talking, but no facts, no evidence. Just talk. How can you actually, really, truly, believe this stuff?
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 13, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
LEFH,

Hollywood has gone both ways. They have done many malevolent and benevolent UFO/ET movies and continue to do so. Perhaps now more malevolent.

That doesn't really offer any sort of answer to my question at all. But I suppose that when you lack any facts, science or logic in your argument deflection becomes one of your most important weapons.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 13, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
Bob Lazar is a crackpot and fraud from start to finish. His background, claims and theories have all been discredited.

This is the unexamined aspect of all you present which is the key attribute of science which makes it science. A thousand Lazars crop up every day and science routinely deals with them as a matter of course by them never surviving even the most cursory peer reviews.

How is it you somehow unfailingly ignore this key component of science?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 14, 2016 - 09:26am PT
imagine you are walking on a high Sierra ridge somewhere, just minding your own business with a group of friends, acquaintances and family. It's a beautiful day in the Range of Light.

You become aware of a sound coming from above, it seems to be getting closer, you're a bit nervous and suddenly individuals in your group panic, chaos everywhere you excitedly run, trying to find a hiding place.

As you dodge around the boulders and scree, the sound continues to pursue you, you're breathing very hard even as you are well conditioned and then you are blanketed by a net, you fall over tangled in its web.

As you writhe on the ground you are suddenly handled, blind folded, hobbled and injected with something that forces you to loose you ability to move, to fight, and just as suddenly you loose the feel of the ground, the cold air blowing across your body and wind blowing in your ears.

In a daze you barely recall being poked and prodded with a lot of "people" standing around you murmuring, you can't quite catch the language, you don't understand it, you're totally out of it. Time passes by slowly but then you are jerked back into the air, that buzzing sound, and in time you feel the Earth again.

The buzzing moves a bit away, the net is removed, another pinch as you are needled again, the hobbles removed and the blindfold taken off you blink uncomprehendingly at that bright sun.

Glancing around you see people running away from you towards the buzzing, you take off in the other direction, spotting another group, familiar but not familiar, you head towards them...

it's all quiet again, you go and introduce yourself... but wonder if they would ever believe your story.






























































http://www.wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Mammals/Bighorn-Sheep




fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 14, 2016 - 09:36am PT
Wait.... the sheep are aliens?

I knew it!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 14, 2016 - 09:43am PT
bhaaaa...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 14, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
Unfortunately, I have to work and can't devote full time to this vital topic. Sitting at home now, glass of wine in hand, brain pulsing like an angry tiger, thoughts flowing like liquid magma, I'm in the groove. Must ...think... this... through.....

Klimmer, this whole thing, this massive and lengthy post, is simply a circumlocutory and pleonastic circle of oratorical sonorousity circumscribing an atom of ideality lost in its verbal profundity. Or so I strongly believe.

Let's recapitulate recent events.

1) We have discovered that the Giant Ark has an air intake scoop, leading to some interesting theories about interstellar travel.
2) Ghost has provided incontrovertible cartoonographic evidence that, in fact, freakin' Tintin is involved!
3) Randisi flaunts his 'French'.
4) I reveal the existence of the Birdmen of Machu Picchu, to everyone's amazement.
5) Randisi reveals that the Chinese are in control of youtube in a weird Catch-22 deal! Klimmer's main source of evidence may be compromised!
6) Klimmer informs us of the existence of 18' tall giants, native to North America, who's discovery was hidden by the evil forces of the Smithsonian Institution!
7) Ghost presents more caratoonographic evidence that freakin' Tintin is even more involved and that the giants were Tibetan Yeti!
8) Randisi stumbles across cartoonographic proof of the existence of the Birdmen!
9) Wait! It's a Nephilim/Yeti. Brotherbock is vindicated, his earlier posts were right!
10) Ghost provides even more evidence of the Birdmen and indicates freakin' Tintin is in this even deeper than we thought!
11) Randisi finds the Birdmen's landing strip, hidden in plain sight.
12) Klemmer asserts Hollywood and the US government are in cahoots, in some way, about aliens and are softening us up for .....
13) There is much interesting discussion about item 12). The general conclusion is that Klemmer's thesis might be a little bit, well, off.......
14) Randisi discovers Upsadaisium!
15) Ed Hartouni asserts we are sheep, but handsome ones.

Wow. Hope I haven't left anything relevant out!

Edit: Damn! I forgot about the Nephelitic Knights Templar (who clandestinely run the Smithsonian, by the way). Courtesy Randisi.

Edited for language.



Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:21pm PT
you can get Upsadaisium you want Unobtainium

not just sheep, mind you... think of the Forum you're posting to.... but mountain sheep...
there's a difference, you know, just look at that shot of DMT's
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:32pm PT
Said Glenn Simpson, a.k.a., Klimmer: "Well, we all face judgement. I guess you'll know then, but it will be too late to do anything about it. I suggest you figure it out this side of eternity."

You sanctimonious, old-testament, fundie twit. For you to suggest anything to me about how to think or live my life, is the height of self-righteous arrogance. Given the massive arc of lunacy you've managed to spout in this thread, you've got precious little credibility to claim to know the mind of gOd and even less latitude to suggest that we all face judgement! You're claiming special insight because you believe you're blessed? You are a blatherskite who has mastered the art of twaddle.

Consider this quote of John Muir's, and reflect on whether his views on life and death correctly mirror your certain faith in a vengent and wrathful gOd at the end:

On no subject are our ideas more warped and pitiable than on death...Let children walk with nature, let them see the beautiful blendings and communions of death and life, their joyous inseparable unity, as taught in woods and meadows, plains and mountains and streams of our blessed star, and they will learn that death is stingless indeed, and as beautiful as life, and that the grave has no victory, for it never fights. All is divine harmony.
—John Muir (1838 - 1914)

You're more like Daniel Muir, his fundamentalist Calvinist father, who John successfully struggled to extricate himself from. Fire and brimstone with no compelling evidence.

You can make Pascal's Wager if you want, but I've got more courage than that.

“What Pascal overlooked was the hair-raising possibility that God might out-Luther Luther. A special area in hell might be reserved for those who go to mass. Or God might punish those whose faith is prompted by prudence. Perhaps God prefers the abstinent to those who whore around with some denomination he despises. Perhaps he reserves special rewards for those who deny themselves the comfort of belief. Perhaps the intellectual ascetic will win all while those who compromised their intellectual integrity lose everything.

There are many other possibilities. There might be many gods, including one who favors people like Pascal; but the other gods might overpower or outvote him, ŕ la Homer. Nietzsche might well have applied to Pascal his cutting remark about Kant: when he wagered on God, the great mathematician 'became an idiot.”
—Walter Kaufmann

Keep your f*#king religion to yourself! Perhaps you have wagered and become an idiot; I have faith that I'm already saved in ways you can't possibly imagine.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
Ed, my apologies; that is exactly what I meant when I wrote 'handsome'. I'm from NZ after all, and we 'know' our sheep (the beautiful ones, anyway).
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:40pm PT
but mountain sheep...there's a difference, you know, just look at that shot of DMT's

Funny, Ed… I don't see a mountain anywhere in that photo. ;-)
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Randisi, seriously, wine up the nose and much coughing. The wife is looking in.....
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 14, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
If aliens existed we would be able to pick up alien bits and pieces like Native Indian arrowheads

On all my 1000s of adventures, I was highly attuned to looking for anything that looks like something of note: rocks, crystals, pretty gravel, native flora and fauna, new routes or bouldering, Indian artifacts, meteorites, natural and physical wonders and/or any alien bits and pieces..

Nothing so far, and all my associates report the same
Nothing, Zero, Nada, null

Not a single "other worldly alien life form produced" artifact has ever been found on earth
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 14, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Were the Andean birdmen gay?

They may have been, but Tintin's photo of Thompson and Thomson offers no real evidence, taken, as it was, on the moon, not in the Andes.

However, there is other evidence...

You decide.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 14, 2016 - 08:18pm PT
Well .......they did like to ride motorcycles............

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 14, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
Craig, what about Klimmer? It's the old purloined letter deal.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 15, 2016 - 07:19am PT
Made me look.

Non, nous devons agir!!
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 15, 2016 - 08:10am PT
Rock!…oopsie. Every time I see this Klimmer thread on the front page I quietly admit to myself he was right about 2 things:
1) It's very OT - definitely on solid ground with that call
2) It's of high interest - this is the one that gives me pause. I really wish Klimmer wasn't right about this being "of high interest". It doesn't speak well of us as a group.

OT fer sure… But as for the "high interest" bit…I don't think the contributors to this thread are believers, or devotees of crackpottery. Rather, many are fascinated by the sheer lunacy of the ideas espoused by one particular individual.

Klimmer: I suspect you can't handle it. It rattles your reality.

Right.

WBraun: Yes ... he's teaching YOU right now.

You are his student ……

Rabbi Klimmer hasn't done much to school us in wackjob theories, other than to demonstrate how unreal are his ideas.

He's told us, himself, elsewhere on SuperTopo that his real name is Glenn Simpson: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=300496&tn=49
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 15, 2016 - 08:35am PT
If that is the same Glenn, the kids don't seem all that hot on him as a teacher.

Perhaps this comment is proof that it's the Ark guy?

He spends to much time spamming message boards instead of teaching.
WBraun

climber
Mar 15, 2016 - 08:41am PT
OMFG !!!!!

Klimmer said this and klimmer said that.

You fools take this sh!t to yer heads and are 0wned .....

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 15, 2016 - 10:12am PT
Why all the Klimmer HATE though? You can taste the venom in a lot of the comments.

Let the man believe whatever he wants to.

There's more out there that we don't understand than we do. It doesn't hurt to listen to every theory, no matter how absurd you may think they are.

I have plenty of friends who are religious. I don't attack their absurd (in my view) belief systems based on books of fables and mythology that spans thousands of years. I find them all interesting even if I don't agree.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 15, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Yes, fear, and how tasteless is it to post that worthless yelpish trash?
That's tantamount to libel and even if it was even remotely accurate it is
totally a third grader's antic.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 15, 2016 - 10:39am PT
I gotta give Klimmer credit.....

He has no shortage of fukn weblinks that he can post and reference.

It's mind boggling how much of this crap is on the interwebs.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 15, 2016 - 11:07am PT
I'm with Dingus, rmuir, you should probably remove it. Yeah, the Moon Ark doesn't exist, but klimmer's post does and it's enjoyable, in an odd way; Ghost bringing Tintin into it was pretty hilarious, and the trajectory lately.......what can I say?
looks easy from here

climber
Ben Lomond, CA
Mar 15, 2016 - 11:18am PT
Let the man believe whatever he wants to.

In general that's my opinion. But as soon as someone tells me that I and everyone I love are going to Hell I tend to get a little...irky with them.
WBraun

climber
Mar 15, 2016 - 11:28am PT
You're already hell ....
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 15, 2016 - 11:31am PT
Lets fuel the fire.

Here is what Klimmer looks like.

Pic was posted was earlier in the thread when he was outed years ago.


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 15, 2016 - 11:34am PT
Thanks rmuir.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 15, 2016 - 12:18pm PT
The CIA wants you to know:

Take a Peek Into Our “X-Files”

The CIA declassified hundreds of documents in 1978 detailing the Agency’s investigations into Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). The documents date primarily from the late 1940s and 1950s.

To help navigate the vast amount of data contained in our FOIA UFO collection, we’ve decided to highlight a few documents both skeptics and believers will find interesting. Below you will find five documents we think X-Files character Agent Fox Mulder would love to use to try and persuade others of the existence of extraterrestrial activity. We also pulled five documents we think his skeptical partner, Agent Dana Scully, could use to prove there is a scientific explanation for UFO sightings.

The truth is out there; click on the links to find it.


https://www.cia.gov/news-information/blog/2016/take-a-peek-into-our-x-files.html
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 15, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
A poll reveals that almost half of all Americans think the government is hiding evidence of UFOs from the public.

The other half thinks that the evidence of UFOs existed, but it was "misplaced" by Hillary Clinton
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 15, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
The Ghost and rmuir. That sounds kinda catchy.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 15, 2016 - 10:01pm PT

Mar 15, 2016 - 12:48pm PT
Someone should let both Klimmer and Ghost know that in fact, Le Petit Prince was there first, long before gOd and gOd's minions. St. Exupery - whom a peak in Patagonia is named for - would be pleased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Little_Prince_(2015_film);

Overwhelming Glenn with whimsy should be fun, although like all monomaniacs, he seems unlikely to be receptive.

The Little Prince was written on Eaton's Neck in Huntington NY where I lived as a kid. My Brother's Inlaws had a place next door.

But the Prince was by no means the first to get there. Jules Verne did it a century and a half ago, and the French did on film it in 1902.


Then there were the voyages to Barzoom....
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 16, 2016 - 08:30am PT
WE ARE NEPHILIM!!!!!


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 16, 2016 - 03:41pm PT


Mar 16, 2016 - 08:30am PT
WE ARE NEPHILIM!!!!!




Credit: brotherbbock



All except Chouinard, maybe...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 16, 2016 - 03:48pm PT
ne of the two dogs died during the impact of takeoff. So ignoring all laws of physics, they tossed it out the hatch and were later surprised to find it keeping pace with them.

I remember a short story ( Azimov, I think) about one astronaut throwing a villain off of an asteroid and telling him he wouldn't be rescued unless he gave some critical information.

The guy confessed, then orbited the asteroid until his orbit brought him back down an hour later, as he wasn't thrown off at escape velocity.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:37pm PT
Randisi, my understanding of the cause of nose sparks is that what you're seeing is interstellar frictional heating from contact with the ether, also known as etherodynamic heating. If you notice, as seen in the cartoonograph, the projectile is nicely shaped and etherodynamic heating doesn't occur. The poor dog, on the other hand, is pretty spread out and impacting the ether pretty hard, I imagine. The spark effect is photonic bounce from etherodynamic impacts; as the ether is disturbed a reverse flux effect occurs which shoots photons in the exact reverse direction of the impact. As the poor animal's muzzle is of a contorted shape, the photonic bounce pattern is spread out, rather than exactly concentrated in the reverse direction of travel. Other parts of the animal do not experience etherodynamic heating and hence 'sparking' because the trans-etheric shock wave generated by the foremost point of the dog, in this case his nose, protects the rest of the object from etheric impact by spreading the ether around the object.

Hope this helps.

Edited for clarity. Also, you can probably find out more about 'etherodynamic heating' on youtube........unless the Nephilim are suppressing sh#t. Just sayin'.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 16, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
I dunno...

The dog looks like a pointer to me.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:27am PT
It has been foretold that there shall be a drug-resistant variant of nephilitis that even penicillin can't touch. Read your bible, folks!
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:36am PT
^^^^Read it cover to cover.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 17, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Skeleton cyclists of the Apocalypse:
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Mar 17, 2016 - 09:53am PT
Klimmer is right!!!!

Look what my simple google search yielded!

Undeniable proof that nephilim existed!!!

God bless the interwebs and it's plethora of accurate information!!!


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 17, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
I.....I....I've just begun to realize how widespread this conspiracy is.....

Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:34am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]& this sent Coz off the front page?
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 18, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
…pretty sure that's a giant skull in the lad's book. Boom.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 18, 2016 - 06:35pm PT
Oh MY GOD

Klimmer is right....

Alex Jones has exposed Satan's Alien Force that's attacking the World at this very moment!!!
Klimmer was warning us for our own safety, and we mocked him
I guess he's laughing now!

But it's True
Alex Jones, Infowars, the leading exposer of truth (satire) has jumped on the Ark!!

It's In the Bible..you guys just missed that part, the bible has predicted this!!! It can predict anything you want to know! Especially after the fact.


-------------

Defending Donald Trump, Alex Jones Warns Of "An Alien Force Not Of This World Attacking Humanity"


http://mediamatters.org/video/2016/03/17/defending-donald-trump-alex-jones-warns-of-an-a/209345

Maybe someone can post the video, I can't find the =

It is so awesome..
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 18, 2016 - 07:19pm PT
Vindication for my etherodynamic (or, old style, aetherodynamik) explanation of 'sparking' off the poor dog's nose from none other than.......drum roll from Klimmer.......Isaac Newton!!!!!!!! From a letter written by him to Robert Boyle (You remember Boyle's Law, don't ya? Well, ya should, G_d damn it. What the hell's the matter with students these days?) in 1679 (and I quote):

"2. I suppose this aether pervades all gross bodies, but yet so as to stand rarer in their pores than in free spaces, and so much the rarer, as their pores are less; and this I suppose (with others) to be the cause why light incident on those bodies is refracted towards the perpendicular; why two well-polished metals cohere in a receiver exhausted of air; why mercury stands sometimes up to the top of a glass pipe, though much higher than thirty inches; and one of the main causes why the parts of all bodies cohere; also the cause of filtration, and of the rising of water in small glass pipes above the surface of the stagnating water they are dipped into; for I suspect the aether may stand rarer, not only in the insensible pores of bodies; but even in the very sensible cavities of those pipes; and the same principle may cause menstruums to pervade with violence the pores of the bodies they dissolve, the surrounding aether, as well as the atmosphere, pressing them together. "

F*#king cool!!!!!!! Newton and I are on a roll and in the groove. See the letter here:

http://www.orgonelab.org/newtonletter.htm

Edit: And you can forget that old Michaelson-Morley experiment bullsh#t. Didn't really mean sh#t, conflicting with Newton and all.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 19, 2016 - 02:19am PT
Why do you naysayers hate so much? I don't call you names. I don't get all bent out of shape and start spitting ad hominem attacks by word or graphics. Learn to debate. I thought you all were smarter than acting like this.

I've pointed out phenomenon that you can't understand, explain, believe, and yet it's there the world over, even on the backside of the Moon.

I've lead you to deep mysteries that are now unfolding in our time. Accept it or don't. At some point we will all know without a doubt.

I imagine most of us will see this play out in our lifetime. I think Newton has brilliant G-d given talent and insight. He predicted Yeshua to return no earlier than 2060 AD/CE. That's not far off. It's true, "no man knows the day or hour" but Yeshua gave us many evidences to watch for and to be ready. He indicated we would know the season and key events must be played out that he discussed, and they have happened, are happening, and more soon to happen. We are definitely in the midst of it all. It's an amazing time to be alive if you think about it.

UFO Sightings Increase 67 Percent In 3 Years, History Channel Investigates Unexplained Aerial Phenomena
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/ufos-pilots-history-channel_n_935847.html

So what's up with the big increase in UFO reports?
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44555210/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/so-whats-big-increase-ufo-reports/

Perhaps the best UFO book out there that proves the phenomenon real ...

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record
by Leslie Kean
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s_ss_i_0_11?k=ufos+leslie+kean&sprefix=ufos+leslie


"When you see the Figtree blossom, know that it is soon." The Fig Tree has blossomed. That was in 1947/1948 the reestablishment of Israel, and the worldwide Aliyah of the Jews to their promised land, eritz Israel, the nation of G-d. Interesting that the most infamous UFO story ever Rosewell, NM, took place in 1947 too. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Things are set to build the 3rd Temple of G-d on Temple Mount. Ornate things needed are made. Priests trained are ready, the raising of unblemished red heifers is now happening. The 3rd Temple will be built. See the website for the Temple Mount Institute.
https://www.templeinstitute.org/temple_mount.htm


Events are unfolding that were prophesied 1000s of years ago. HaShem Adonai Elohim is true to his word and he is faithful to his promises. He told you what's coming and how you would know when we are close to the end of this dispensation of time.

It's true that a wicked force discussed heavily in The Good Book and prophesied about -- Lucifer, who can appear as an Angel of Light has an end of days game plan. "The Prince of The Power of the Air" and all his minions have an end of time delusion to foist onto the world. There will be signs in the skies and heavens that will disturb and scare mankind the world over. The incidence of competent UFO sightings is exponentially increasing throughout history. It is a worldwide phenomenon. G-d told us this would happen. Don't be deceived.

G-d reaches out to each of us, and those of us who fell away he calls us back home. Reach out take his hand and return to G-d.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 19, 2016 - 02:42am PT
Certainly since ancient times, the creatures of this planet have looked up L
There are some who feel that,humans, are not original to the planet
or that we are the result of a species has been manipulated on a massive scale,... U
There are some that point out (as I have with satire) that the way almost all living things seem to in some way be effected by or drawn to the attractive powers of the moon.N
This moon effect has been an overwhelming part of the creature conscience sincA grunt was used to communicate, ( think of the start to the movie 20001) that we can dream and C
study and be sure we know but in the big , biggest picture, we can not knowanythingfor Y sure.Not anything is pure nor is it enroneous to your premise that if we can not know something it Can be, might be Y, In a separate Alternative or lost past (reality), way be factual.
Why not ? Anything is possible.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 19, 2016 - 04:35am PT
There is some truth to things such as a seeming increase in celestial sightings,
Next week? As pair? Of green ? Comets are going to be visible, can not link
CNL ? = Can Not Link? / will try ,. .llater
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 19, 2016 - 08:10am PT
Klimmer, with the huge number of personal videocameras (cell phones) out in the world, just as with bigfoot one would expect someone to capture something on camera. The fact that no one has tends to validate the fact that UFOs are imaginary. For example, we are seeing a huge increase in taped police shootings; so too should we see UFO sightings, if they actually occur. Really, the stuff you post is just sort of nuts:

".....the raising of unblemished red heifers is now happening...." Huh???? Where do you find this stuff? Myth and stories.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 19, 2016 - 09:35am PT
I've pointed out phenomenon that you can't understand, explain, believe, and yet it's there the world over, even on the backside of the Moon.

That's because it's all fantasy and fiction Klimmer - none of it is real, none of it is verifiable, none of it can stand up to peer review. It all comes up short when evaluated with physics, material science and even common sense.

Tell me, how many distinct different kinds of ufo craft would you estimate have been claimed / reported? How many physically distinct alien descriptions are similarly claimed / reported?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 19, 2016 - 10:15am PT
Klimmer, you're searching for something to validate your life; religion seems to give you that comfort. But there are other approaches; here's mine:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 19, 2016 - 05:16pm PT
Why do you naysayers hate so much? I don't call you names. I don't get all bent out of shape and start spitting ad hominem attacks by word or graphics. Learn to debate. I thought you all were smarter than acting like this.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't hate you. Nor have I got bent out of shape and resorted to ad hominem attacks.

And as to debate, I learned that skill long ago. And learned very quickly after that that "debate" with religious believers was impossible. "Debate" implies that participants accept that they may be wrong. That there could be evidence presented by the other that could cause a change of mind.

The underlying foundation of debate is that participants must answer the question "What evidence would make you change your mind" with something other than "Nothing can make me change my mind."

I'm perfectly happy to have you prove me wrong. In fact there is nothing I'd like better than to be convinced that there was something after death. But it requires evidence, and "The bible says so" is not evidence.

Likewise, show me a real skeleton of a giant as opposed to an obvious photoshop job, and I'll be on the giant bandwagon immediately. Same with the ark on the moon. Go back and look at your first post and tell me with a straight face that the picture of the spaceship bigger than Manhattan isn't a amateurish photoshop effort.

I agree with you that the ad hominem attacks are distasteful and childish, but that doesn't mean I think your ideas are grounded in reality.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 19, 2016 - 06:18pm PT
Klimmer, what do you think of this

Alex Jones Warns Of "An Alien Force Not Of This World Attacking Humanity"


http://mediamatters.org/video/2016/03/17/defending-donald-trump-alex-jones-warns-of-an-a/209345

"Trump may be a syop, but it doesn't matter, it's part of the awakening"
"Everyone of us have weaponized TVs pointing at us"
"it's the devil, it's not of this world"
"It's Not Human Intelligence we are fighting"
AJ


Weaponized TVs!!!
what kind of weapons did "they" put in my TV?
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Mar 19, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
I know you are but what am I?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Mar 19, 2016 - 08:21pm PT
You may have missed the part in the bible that says whatever you want it to say

It's hard to find, but if you look hard enough you'll find it
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 19, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
Yes, the true sign of our times is cartoonographic proof. What can be represented on the computer screen is then what is, just as what can be 'shown' in the Bible is Bibleographic proof. What makes one truer than the other????? Just f*#kin' Bibleograph me and I will believe. I'm almost there Kilimmer ........just show me the Bibleographic proof.

Randisi, I am constantly amazed by your obviously perceptive perception of reality, as I am also amazed by mine!!!!! I suspect you have a philosophik component to your ramblings.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 19, 2016 - 09:08pm PT
Wow, GOD, thanks for that Gumby Moon video!!! I just watched it and several things jumped (or were propelled by G_d) into my mind!! First, here is total cartoonographic evidence of pyramidal creatures on the Moon! This is important because of the pyramids in Egypt and the 30 years exodus of the Jews. Complete catrtoonographic evidence to support the Bible!!!!! Holy shit!!!! I'm convinced, but what I'm convinced of is still in question. Good work!!!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Mar 20, 2016 - 10:49am PT
Let's not forget that the first dog in space was Laika, on Sputnik 2 in 1957. Sadly, she died within hours after reaching orbit.

And, a sight to gladden Locker's heart:
OK, it's not blue, but is at least related to Sir Isaac Newton and his scientific achievements. His later weird mysticism is another matter.

So as not to further confuse Glenn, it's not a spaceship, wasn't found on the backside of the moon, and none of his fantasy beings live in it. But if it was a rocket, it would be powered by upsadaisium.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 20, 2016 - 11:38am PT
So no response on the question on the taxonomy of unique alien and craft morphologies claimed / reported?
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Mar 20, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
Cool looking spaceship Mighty H. Haven't seen that model in a compact.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 21, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
CF,


I like Alex Jones. He's a very brave man. He can get too emotional sometimes but he feels it deep and real. He's exposed a great deal over time of the deep dark corruption in our world at many levels.

His documentary on the NWO Redwood "Bohemian Grove," and the worship of Baal proof there is real powerful and connected political wicked evil in the world and that Satan, Lucifer has an agenda and he has willing minions not just in the spiritual world but also in the human physical world too. The Cremation of Care ...



"Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove
by Alex Jones

Published 2000
Topics alex:jones, tyranny, liberty, patriot, patriotism, new, world, order, government, occult


SINCE 1873, THE GLOBAL ELITE HAS HELD SECRET MEETINGS IN THE ANCIENT REDWOOD FOREST OF NORTHERN CALIFORNIA. KNOWN MEMBERS OF THE SO-CALLED BOHEMIAN CLUB INCLUDE FORMER PRESIDENTS NIXON, EISENHOWER, REAGAN AND BUSH. THE BUSH FAMILY MAINTAINS A STRONG INVOLVEMENT.

EACH YEAR AT BOHEMIAN GROVE, WORLD LEADERS DON RED, BLACK AND SILVER CLOAKS AND CONDUCT AN OCCULT RITUAL, WHEREIN THEY WORSHIP A GIANT STONE OWL. DURING THE CEREMONY A HUMAN BEING IS SACRIFICED "IN EFFIGY" TO THE OWL GOD IDOL.

NOW, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY, AN OUTSIDER HAS INFILITRATED BOHEMIAN GROVE WITH A VIDEO CAMERA AND CAUGHT THE RITUAL ON TAPE.

THAT MAN IS ALEX JONES.

THE RITUAL IS JUST ONE PART OF THE TERRIFYING EXCLUSIVE VIDEO IN HIS LATEST DOCUMENTARY: DARK SECRETS: INSIDE BOHEMIAN GROVE"

https://archive.org/details/DSIBG


They tap into demonic forces straight from Lucifer. He is their god. He is the god of this world. The truth is stranger than fiction.




HJ,

I don't know if the Apollo 20 story is fake. It maybe. I do believe the massive craft is on the back side of the Moon is very real. It's in so many official NASA images from several different Apollo missions. All that evidence is not fake. Apollo MoonWalker Edgar Mitchell said there are alien crafts on the back side of the Moon.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 21, 2016 - 11:31pm PT
Klimmer, I'm not talking about that. I'm asking generally about the broad taxonomy of unique alien and craft morphologies claimed / reported by UFO folks.

I mean it ranges in the hundreds if not thousands. I mean, what are the odds we're a veritable alien Heathrow and intergalactic hub - particularly so since intelligent life on Earth is like a micro-second old cosmologically speaking. And that we'd have so many of these sightings over just the past sixty years strains credibility light years beyond the breaking point.

In every respect it simply defies physics, logic and even common sense.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Mar 22, 2016 - 07:34am PT
Hey, Klimmer: Thanks for that video, although I only had the patience to watch about 30 seconds of it. I'm stoked to know that I'm the grandson of a Satan worshipper! Bring on Mr. 666!!11111111!!! That's right, my grandpappy was even president of The Club for a couple of years. My family owned land just a few miles away from the Bohemian Grove from the 1930's until the mid 90's. Grandpa was so into the club that he bought his little gentleman's ranch nearby.

I assure you and everyone that I NEVER had to attend any goat sacrifices, ritual rape of virgins, cross burnings, etc. These rich, older white dudes don't worship Satan, although that might be cool. Nope, amigo, they worship Mammon. Pure and simple. If cash is code for El Diablo, then yer onto something. The Grove was known for hosting world-class musicians and such, but mostly it's about Old White Money and networking. My dad went to a few of the gatherings and was really impressed. My father, to his great credit, rejected that world of money and constant, pathological striving. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the club brought in prostitutes for the members (heh, pun intended). I had a good friend who would get together with her kids and other Nor Cal hippies to protest the big gatherings. She'd get out there with signs and chants and harass the Big Money as it flew in on Lear jet after Lear jet. Classic.

Keep the faith, Klimmer. Plenty of well-documented hearsay, as my father used to say. Actually, you should read up on Occam's Razor. Good stuff, that, although I don't think it would help you in particular to give up these fantasies.

BAd
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 24, 2016 - 12:12am PT
For those rare individuals with a significant attention span and who actually do their homework:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUFv4rbBkhg
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 24, 2016 - 05:42pm PT
Let's not even go there. Tesla is roiling in his grave at the mere suggestion...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 24, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
Damn!!! It's about the gay Birdmen of Machu Picchu and the Nephilim!!!!!!! Fantastic video.

Edit: Tom, I added an active link to that incredible video:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 25, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
It is not hard to do an online search for UFO Taxonomy, whether or not you chose to look outside the box

How about a bit less ranting and a bit more homework done…Oh, well I understand that some of you already know it all and thus have no need to learn anything new that might shake up your world view…

These 90 ufo shapes are based on witness testimonies and photographed material….your experience may differ...


http://www.worldufoday.com/documented-ufo-shapes/
WBraun

climber
Mar 25, 2016 - 09:39pm PT
The real spacemen from the upper planetary systems do not come to this planet anymore now.

Too many crazy insane people run this planet now, so they stay away.

It's all materialism now and brainwashed, so why should they even bother.

The intelligent class is tiny minority now.

The ruling class is so insane now they will kill you if you expose them.

Instead they all want to go to Mars an inauspicious planet in the lower planetary system.

Typical place where the fools always go.

Modern people can't understand advanced consciousness.

They've been checked and stunted by their gross materialism .....
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 25, 2016 - 09:51pm PT
Holy Schist Werner!

This is much bigger than a (stupid & imaginary) ark on the Moon.

Our missing Crankaloon (or smoking duck) is back!


All us loonies missed you soooo!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2785720/Did-Werner-get-the-boot
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 26, 2016 - 11:25pm PT
I didn't need to look it up because it's a ridiculous number of shapes as are the number of descriptions of aliens. Come on Tom, you're a bright boy - what are the odds?
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 27, 2016 - 09:05am PT
C'mon Healyje- don't you understand there is only a smattering of different alien worlds? The variety in the poster is representative of the rapidly evolving alien technology; sort of like getting the latest model car every 2 years is for us. They probably buy them on lease back.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Mar 27, 2016 - 09:16am PT
90 UFO shapes? 10 of them must be cloaked.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 27, 2016 - 11:32am PT
I'm going to go work on my random alien generator...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 28, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
Klimmer..........I'm getting scared..........

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 6, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
some people seem to think history is over and we know everything and just have to fill in the details

however vast amounts of humility would be appropriate

we are really only just at the beginning of our technical and consciousness development
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 6, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Yes Tom, we certainly know only a very small fraction of the knowable and will continue to learn; an unfortunate consequence of this is that each individual can know less and less of the totality, while concentrating on a smaller and smaller portion of knowledge, becoming a specialist in a very small area indeed. I suspect the age of the polymath may be past. But at least there is still Google. And Klimmer
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 6, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
Dmt for the win
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Apr 6, 2016 - 10:23pm PT
Great post, BAd - this is why we get along so well. :)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 6, 2016 - 10:34pm PT
a lot of the danger we are facing comes from the unintended consequences of wrapping advanced knowledge in secrecy and then using ridicule as the primary method for keeping it secret

it is an interesting mental exercise on this thread trying to figure out which poster is knowledgeable and tasked with using ridicule to prevent disclosure … vs who is just ignorant and rude about it …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 7, 2016 - 02:40am PT
Goddamit! I should have known better than to lookie in here.

I've been sucked into a blankety-blank black hole!

FOCK FOCK FOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!
MFM ran up the clock, etc.
FOCK FOCK FOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2607974&tn=4660
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Apr 7, 2016 - 07:08am PT
In a 100 years there will be no civilization.

Not too sure about that, Mr. Moose, but certainly there will be no more me, and that's all that really matters, isn't it?
WBraun

climber
Apr 7, 2016 - 07:18am PT
In 100 years you'll all still be here in different bodies saying the same sh!t over and over again ....
Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Apr 7, 2016 - 07:30am PT
In 100 years you'll all still be here in different bodies saying the same sh!t over and over again ....

There's something to be said for consistency...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 7, 2016 - 07:34am PT
Randisi, what's the Chinese view on UFOs? Do they (UFOs) only appear on this side of the ocean, or do they have them there too? If they are sighted in China do they conform to the model matrix posted upthread, or is there a particular Chinese variant? Inquiring minds want to know!! Also, do you have Klimmer clones over there?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:02am PT
These pagoda UFOs have been moored on the Earth for so long people take them for temples and worship them! Tourists even visit them.

The aliens have adopted similar tactics in the US, as well. Tourists flock to Seattle to see the "Space Needle," never realizing what is obvious to anyone with an open mind. Seriously -- look at the shape and then tell me it's not a UFO!

And check out how easy it is for them to communicate with the mothership (Ark) on the moon!!!!

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:12am PT

brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:15am PT
Yeah Ghost that looks like a giant nephilim antennae if I've ever seen one.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:27am PT
They are all giant nephilim size too.

This cannot be a coincidence...

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:32am PT
Wow Randisi, thanks for that revelation abut the Giant San Francisco Ark!!! My first though on seeing that was also the etherodynamic scoops. That baby is poised for takeoff for sure. Probably needs a pretty big jolt of element 115 to fly though. Oddly enough, it's fairly near the Lawrence Livermore Labs ......... Is there a connection perhaps? This is getting scary.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:33am PT
UFO communication headquarters

The Integratron
Giant Rock, CA


One night the aliens were playing war games out there,
they set their phazors on "chip"

and cleaved off this clean ass flake off the giant rock, like it was butter
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 7, 2016 - 08:52am PT
George Van Tassel atop the rock

Klimmer was just born too late
he missed the alien heyday just a couple miles from Josh
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 7, 2016 - 09:53am PT
the most incredibly effective method for obscuring important knowledge is ridicule

while you fools are busy entertaining yourselves saying foolish stuff, your time would be much better spent doing your homework trying to understand what is really going on in the world

that is true whether you are a fool paid by the deep government or just a fool

it's too late, the information is out there, and all the ongoing disinformation coverup is just for the brainwashed sheeple who are too foolish to look

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:01am PT
A live link to Tom's explosive video:

[youtube=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False]

Sorry, can't seem to make it work.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:05am PT
Most of this stuff has been debunked by scientific researchers or skeptics that did follow up investigations

so until something comes along that can be confirmed (and not single story or item has been confirmed yet), we will just have fun with, like you guys do.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:37am PT
You are correct that there is a huge effort to debunk this sort of information and ridicule it

I learned a long time ago that any time information is released that the deep government wants suppressed, then there is a massive release of disinformation that sounds similar while being demonstrably false … it's called the Big Lie Technique ...

However the internet is still an incredible tool for disseminating real information

Anyone who believes all the debunking and disinformation has just not done their homework

If you can't be bothered to do your homework, then don't expect me to honor your opinion

See if you can watch this four hour, well-documented presentation and then still tell me you have a basic understanding of what is going on in the world. This guy has done his homework:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:50am PT
That Livermore BART station looks pretty huge, Dingus. Where did they put all the dirt? Is this whole thing somehow tied to the Walmart tunnels and the secret Army Jade Helm exercises? Lucky THAT was exposed or we all might have been in prison camps by now.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 7, 2016 - 11:12am PT
Thanks!
i found that ancient technology movie startling! Those millions of formations in Africa need to be explained!

i'd rather see nasa jump on that over gettin to mars
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 7, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:36pm PT
This thread is not going unnoticed.









We know who you are.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:44pm PT
SCHIZOPHRENIA - PARANOID TYPE

Definition
Paranoid type schizophrenia is a mental illness that involves false beliefs of being persecuted or plotted against.

Alternative Names
Paranoid schizophrenia

Symptoms
People with paranoid schizophrenia may have mistaken beliefs (delusions) that one or more people are plotting against them or their loved ones. It is difficult or impossible for others to convince them that they are not the target of a plot. People with this condition may spend a lot of time thinking about how to protect themselves from the person or people they believe are trying to harm them.

Other symptoms may include:

Becoming socially isolated
Feeling tense, suspicious, guarded, and reserved
Having an exaggerated sense of self importance (grandiose delusions)
Having unrealistic feelings of jealousy (delusional jealousy)
"Hearing things" (auditory hallucinations)
Paranoid schizophrenia usually does not involve the disorganized speech and behavior that is seen in other types of schizophrenia.

See: Schizophrenia for more information about schizophrenia and its treatment.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 7, 2016 - 10:57pm PT


graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 7, 2016 - 11:43pm PT
http://allthingsd.com/20110321/facebook-actually-a-cia-surveillance-program-says-the-onion/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 7, 2016 - 11:57pm PT
the deep government

Why would a bright boy like you spend decades working for people like that?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 8, 2016 - 07:29am PT
Dingus - the old WW2 prisoner of war digging a tunnel and spreading the dirt around scenario eh? Ed must have done a lot of walking!

graniteclimber, interesting that you should bring the Illuminati into this. I just discovered, through diligent youtube and cartoonographic investigation that this runs even deeper than we thought........ the NSA is involved. Turns out that the NSA has been planting quantum observation modules (qoms) on the backs of dollar bills. Every one of us who has a dollar bill in his/her pocket is being tracked and observed, even more intensely than cell phone tracking. Every conversation you have in the presence of a dollar bill is recorded for later 'use'. That's why I never carry money.

Proof, you ask? Here it is, an actual qom.

overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 8, 2016 - 07:31am PT
Are you smelling your armpit?
couchmaster

climber
Apr 8, 2016 - 08:17am PT
Quote from upthread:
..."the most incredibly effective method for obscuring important knowledge is ridicule

while you fools are busy entertaining yourselves saying foolish stuff, your time would be much better spent doing your homework trying to understand what is really going on in the world"

I remember back when the suspicious crazy folks were talking about a secretive group of elites meeting annually and some to the crazy things they were discussing and doing in this meeting. The group was called the Bilderbergers, and the Trilateral commission. Anyone who believed that such a group actually existed was ridiculed and belittled as a tinfoil hat wearing idiot. Eventually some enterprising reporter dug in hard and followed up on the Bilderberger rumors, reporting on some of the elites caught going to a meeting. Eventually it was outed as a real thing, not a tinfoil hat fake issue and is now widely reported as a real thing by all the mainstream media. Turned out the Bilderberg group of world elites had been gathering since 1954 in total secrecy, and the wide spread ridicule of anyone who uttered the word "Bilderberg" made the meetings of the elites seem like a pretend thing made up by crazy morons that all of us "normal" people could join in the belittling fun.

Turned out it was a real thing all along and the crazies were spot on the money. Now the Bilderberg group have their own Wiki page and web site. Can't guarantee whether the Bilderberg PR info is misinformation or not, I have my suspicions and am keeping an open mind. What they say they do still doesn't jive with what the tinfoil hat types say they actually do at these meetings. However, I'm more likely to believe the tinfoil hatters now as they were correct earlier.

Curious stuff. BTW, I haven't microwaved any bills yet (as I don't care) but found this interesting.
http://www.businessinsider.com/new-paper-puts-chips-in-cash-2013-5

http://www.prisonplanet.com/022904rfidtagsexplode.html
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2016 - 10:33am PT
Tom C.,

Thanks for posting this lecture/video with Dr. Steven Greer.

Incredibly interesting but very sad at the same time. Our world has gone wrong so bad. But it's important to know what really is going on.

Greer is a very brave American Hero.


Dr. Steven Greer - Nov. 21, 2015 - How the Secret Government Works: The Most Explosive Expose - HD
(about 3 hours long)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?nohtml5=False&v=oHxGQjirV-c
[Click to View YouTube Video]




Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 8, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
(Note: I was originally going to post this on the Donald thread, but there is a good discussion going on there I didn't want to interrupt)

Hey Klimmer, now you HAVE to vote for Clinton. From USA Today:

"John Podesta, Hillary Clinton’s campaign chairman, says it’s time for the U.S. government to release any evidence it has about the existence of alien forms of life in outer space.

Podesta, who was also a chief of staff to President Bill Clinton, told CNN that if Hillary Clinton is elected, she’ll ask for as many records about Area 51 in Nevada as the U.S. government has to be declassified.

“I think that's a commitment that she intends to keep and that I intend to hold her to," Podesta told CNN."

The Donald has never promised this.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 8, 2016 - 02:08pm PT
The Donald has never promised this.

Of course he hasn't. If he authorized a full release of all information on UFO's it would soon be obvious that he, as an illegal alien (really, really alien) was not only ineligible to be President, but in fact should be deported back to whatever planet he was originally from.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 8, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
That's useful information, Ghost. Up post there was a picture of the Giant Ark in San Francisco, disguised as a building, and that rang a bell. Are you possibly suggesting that Trump's buildings might actually be space ships? That trump was a builder for some hidden, alien reasons? That there is some connection with Trump, the SF Ark, Livermore, et al? This is getting too deep, man. I'm getting the shivers (although it's supposed to be 85° today in Yakima).
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 8, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
Hey Tom,

Any links to most recent testing going on with that sound power?

or anymore on those round crystal structures? What did they do, use light make sound?

Thanks
fosburg

climber
Apr 8, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
Thanks for posting that link TomCochrane, I think that guy Greer truly is an American hero.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 8, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
The ufo thing is debunked by cosmology, physics and material science. In short, it's moronic if not infantile.
fosburg

climber
Apr 8, 2016 - 07:48pm PT
What is your name healyje?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 8, 2016 - 09:56pm PT
so humans have been on the planet for perhaps 250,000 years

our so-called recorded history (which is really mostly falsified and contrived) only goes back 6000 years

and most of you don't know even a little bit about what is going on in international politics and economics … and much less about our history or potential future scenarios ...

so to provide a couple of glimmers; my grandmother crossed the great plains as a teenager from St Louis to Idaho in an ox drawn wagon, helped her father build a house, and lived in that house long enough to watch on TV as people walked on the moon … all in one generation

i started out building computers with mechanical relays from party-line telephones and mechanical juke box parts, and progressed through vacuum tube computers with magnetic iron core memory, through transistor based computers with punched paper tape and paper cards, to magnetic tape to integrated circuits to super computers with fibre optics and huge memory systems and AI and immersive VR and smart phones … all in one generation

and look at the progress in rock climbing in the same time frame … and a thousand other domains ...

meanwhile someone has suppressed advanced power systems that were developed a century ago and has forced us to use 1880s-level technology that can be monopolized with internal combustion engine petroleum-fueled vehicles so we could destroy the ecosystem of the planet in one generation

of course we did all of that with no outside influence because we humans are so smart and wise

and of course the material sciences and cosmology and physics have it all figured out except for the details

and just who is being gullible around here??

if any of you have done even one percent of the research by Dr Stephen Greer or Linda Moulton Howe or a thousand other researchers and whistleblowers … then perhaps your opinions are worthy of attention here
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 8, 2016 - 10:51pm PT
Nobody panic, keep calm.
You may want to sit down,
for this very month,
Friday the 13th comes on Wednesday!#|^"pogo
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 9, 2016 - 09:56am PT
Of course all conspiracy enthusiasts think that the skeptics and debunking is a "Deep Government" conspiracy to keep the truth from getting out.

And of course they couldn't be more wrong, there is a private citizen Skeptical Movement as strong as the conspiracy nut movement.

People like me that want to know the truth, these private scientists go out and do their own investigations on the paranormal, religions, cults, historical claims, conspiracies, UFOs and a lot of other cool stuff.

We have skeptical societies, books, magazines, and lot's of internets.

This is an invaluable source to link quickly to the absurd
The Skeptic's Dictionary
http://skepdic.com/


Almost every UFO sighting or claim has been investigated and documented by skeptics.

Here is an index from one part of the Dictionary
http://skepdic.com/tialien.html

topical index: extraterrestrials and UFOs
A
alien abduction
ancient astronauts
anomalous luminous phenomena
Area 51
Aztec UFO hoax
C
cattle mutilation
crop circle
D
The Dogon and Sirius II
E
extraterrestrial
F
face on Mars
flying saucer
H
hollow Earth
I
Ica stones
M
Marfa lights
Men in Black
N
Nazca lines
P
Pleiadian
pyramidiocy
R
Raëlian
rod
Roswell
S
Santa Claus
Zecharia Sitchin
star child
U
Unidentified Flying Objects [UFOs]


Nothing about the Ark on the Moon, I guess it hasn't been debunked yet!
Klimmer, There's still hope !


You can read the skeptical investigations on almost any topic.
You can see how science was used to debunk these claims, and you can understand that people claim all kinds of stuff, and if it sounds to wild too be true, it better have solid proof or it will be debunked.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Apr 9, 2016 - 10:11am PT
Can't we install a force field or something similar around the earth to keep the G-d damn aliens out so that they quit disturbing us? And make them pay for it! I don't know how to handle the skeptics.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 9, 2016 - 10:48am PT
just who is being gullible around here??

You are, and maybe getting demented for all I know. Having built the same series of computers as you, I can speak to the fact that, yes, we do actually know enough about cosmology, physics and material science to say it's all total bullsh#t. What's more, none of that is even required - common sense alone is enough to conclude that.

Once again, the notion the US has been veritable extraterrestrial union station for the past sixty years is simply moronic in the extreme.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2016 - 12:48pm PT
Well if the evidence is true, and the many eye witnesses are not lying, then it isn't moronic. They're here. It's true.

The fact that you can't wrap your head around that and you can't understand the physics of it all, doesn't matter. Doesn't mean it's not real.

Perhaps one of the best documentaries out there for understanding the UFO phenomenon and getting your head out of the sand ...


UFOs OUT OF THE BLUE - HD FEATURE FILM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cYPCKIL7oVw

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 10, 2016 - 04:02pm PT
Klimmer
use plain words to describe the evidence
please give us an account of a single occurrence that was documented and can be traced back to the original event.

My computer won't run the videos or click on links
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 10, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
They're here. It's true.

They're not. It's false. And pathetically sad as well.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 10, 2016 - 04:46pm PT
Kevin Fosberg asked:
What is your name healyje?
That is his name. Mostly. He's a real person, not a gov't agent if that is the inference, and having tied in with said Healyje I can also speak to the fact that he climbs. Fairly decent too for an old dude:-)




They're here. It's true.
They're not. It's false. And pathetically sad as well.
Hey man, what about the reptilian shapeshifters? Are you just putting your head in the sand again? Even 2 min on google and you can get the full scoop about that. Obama, Queen Elisabeth, Bush, Trump....






LOL, now I'm doing it. Sorry if I belittled anyone's views there. Nah. Sorry/not sorry -I'm going to hell. I'm really not serious about the shapeshifters, although there are folks who are.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/03/reptilian-shapeshifters-from-hell-obama-our-government-and-in-our-society-ultimate-plan-of-destruction-and-the-time-is-now-mind-blowing-videos-and-photos-2918252.html










rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 10, 2016 - 05:19pm PT
Well if the evidence is true, and the many eye witnesses are not lying, then it isn't moronic. They're here. It's true.

Your evidentiary presumptions appear lacking. It is equally valid—perhaps more so—that if the evidence is false, and the many "eye witnesses" are lying, then it is moronic. They're not here. It's not true.

The fact that you can't wrap your head around that and you can't understand the physics of it all, doesn't matter. Doesn't mean it's not real.

Your pomposity is staggering. Try as you might, trotting out a few questionable oddities—in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary—does not prove your point. (And this pretty-much goes for your Biblical "evidence" as well…)


EXTRATERRESTRIALS MAY BE OUT THERE But He Says They’re Not Here

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/extraterrestrials-may-be-out-there/

An interview with Philip J. Klass (1919–2005), the world’s leading UFO skeptic, was published in Skeptic magazine volume 7, number 4 in 1999.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 10, 2016 - 07:31pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:14pm PT
So Randisi, lording over us again with your French??????

Well, two can play that game:

Regarder, un vaisseau spatial extraterrestre volant!!!!!!! (thanks Google)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
interesting discussion

i am very familiar with how people can cling to their view of reality like grim death and i respect people going to great lengths to reinforce their world view

i remain personally unconvinced that we know much about much of anything, especially some of the unusual phenomena and observations and ancient artifacts that seem interesting and difficult to explain honestly

my personal opinion is that commonly accepted world views are so childish as to be comical if we didn't have so much invested in them…particularly the material sciences, physics, and cosmology … not to mention politics, economics, religion, etc

the truth of reality is likely well beyond the wildest imaginations of most humans, and it is our great challenge to try and make sense of our observations and to understand

you can study the history of the sciences in considering this viewpoint

it is not helpful holding a fixed myopic world view into which we try to fit scarce samplings of facts

there are concepts and there are data, and often not much relationship between the two



for a minor example we got a county SAR rope rescue team callout last week where a very intelligent and consciensous solo hiker (she is a financial analyst) called 911 on her cell phone to report she had fallen off a cliff and landed in a very uncomfortable position on a rocky ledge and was afraid to move because she would fall further off the cliff

she was in an area with many steep cliffs and i was set up to do a roped pickoff with the team gearing up to do a haul and carry

when we go to her, four of us walked along the trail she had lost and walked UP about three feet to where she had spent two hours uninjured in absolute terror clinging to the rocky ground and afraid to move

if she had slipped or fallen, she would have landed on the trail

we talked to her and held her hand and helped her stand up and walked her back to the trail and back to her car

don't bother trying to explain that her abject terror bore no relationship to reality and that she was in no danger of falling off a cliff
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:43pm PT
So true Tom.

Same thing happened once here.

The guy was "ledged Out" lol.

I walked right up to him and held his hand walking back on a narrow ledge back to the talus which was about 20 feet.

Your grandmother could have done it ......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
The fact that you can't wrap your head around that and you can't understand the physics of it all, doesn't matter. Doesn't mean it's not real.

Likewise, the fact that you believe extraterrestrial beings are landing here doesn't mean they really are.

Neither I, nor anyone else, can prove that we've never been visited by beings from elsewhere. But, as anyone who has mastered the basics of logic can tell you, not being able to disprove something, doesn't prove that something.

If, as you and others believe, extraterrestrial beings are constantly visiting our planet, show me something that will make me take you seriously. And no, "Well this important guy has a video in which he says alien spacecraft are landing here" is not serious evidence. If alien spacecraft are really landing here, take me to one.

The way you and others talk about this, our planet is an intergalactic transfer hub, with alien spacecraft popping in and out all the time. If so, where is the proof? Of the 7 billion people on this planet, at least half are walking around with cell phone cameras 24/7. Where are the pictures? And no, not some fuzzy photoshop job, but a real clear picture. 25 years ago, those fuzzy photos might have been the best evidence available. Not now.

You can make a case that the US government is running a massive cover-up, but so what? Is the Peruvian government capable of that kind of cover-up? The Latvian government? The Indonesian government?

Or are the aliens only visiting the US, because, you know, no one goes to Germany any more, it's just so last year.

Same thing with the giants that walked the earth with your grandpa. Where are the bones? Other than in a stupid photoshop picture, that is.

I don't deny that the US government has put a lid on any number of things it doesn't want you to know. But it's a big world, and if extraterrestrial (but, you know, humanoid-looking) beings were here in the numbers you believe they are, we'd all know about it.

And, just so you know, I suspect there is plenty of intelligent life in the universe. And I hope to see real evidence of it before I die. But real evidence is, so far, not available.
WBraun

climber
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:49pm PT
You have to have special eyeballs to see the aliens.

They are in subtle material bodies not visible to the gross materialists.

Thus the stooopid gross materialists are always talking sh!t about everything they are clueless to .....
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 10, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
those of you who claim there is no solid evidence to be considered are simply betraying the fact that you have not bothered to do your homework...

even when the extensive research of others is offered to you for free



i am not telling you what to believe

i am telling you to do your homework before holding so tightly to conventional world views



Edit: Werner Braun is way too far out for this crowd, so don't even try until you have invested comparable levels of effort…whether we are talking about the unusual phenomena of his rock climbing in Yosemite or his understanding of other sorts of unusual phenomena
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 10, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
Geez Tom,

"my personal opinion is that commonly accepted world views are so childish as to be comical if we didn't have so much invested in them…particularly the material sciences, physics, and cosmology … not to mention politics, economics, religion, etc"

Maybe it's because these 'commonly accepted world views' actually work? They allow us to predict things and check the results. Until the alien people (non-Trump types) are able to produce some sort of scientific, meaning testable, stuff, it is all BS. Except for Tintin.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 10, 2016 - 10:34pm PT
yes some stuff works fine and at each stage of 'history' the authorities and 'scientists' have claimed the moral high ground with each generation of 'flat earth theories'

Newtonian physics 'works' yet provides an incomplete understanding

Relativity 'works' yet admittedly provides an incomplete understanding and has not been fully proven in all aspects

quantum theory is also fundamental to modern physics, yet those who created it say that if you think you understand it then you haven't studied sufficiently … and the creator of relativity theory didn't believe in the truth of quantum theory

the relationships between relativity and quantum theory have not been resolved after decades of study and experimentation

Nicola Tesla developed much of what we call modern technology, yet much of his advanced work has been heavily suppressed because it can't be monopolized for a profit

the fundamental forces defined by physics are admittedly not properly defined or understood

string theory is fundamental to modern physics and cosmology, and has yet to be fully defined, understood or proven and may turn to be a contrived fantasy attempt at understanding, in which case modern physics has been spinning its wheels for three decades

if string theory is proven out, then our (multi)universe is a much stranger place than anything being considered in this discussion

Rupert Sheldrake's authoritative work to resolve some of the above is rejected by a misbelieving establishment that finds his proposals highly inconvenient

are we having fun yet?

if you think you understand it all, then i'd like to know what planet you think you come from

saying you know what is going on when you can't even be bothered to watch presentations by diligent researchers, just puts you in the category of lazy unfounded opinionated

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHxGQjirV-c&nohtml5=False
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 10, 2016 - 11:23pm PT
Again, even common sense alone debunks it all. Come on Tom, like I said, you're a bright boy - just what percentage of ufo's tales do you believe are real? 1%, 10%, 50%, a 100%, and how do you tell one from the other - come'on, out with it...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 12:32am PT
did you watch the video with four hours of information???

if not, then you are wasting our time

are you trying to tell me everything he says is false?

it doesn't matter what i believe, either to you or in the grand scheme of things

what matters is questioning what is the reality and how can you tell what is real in a world full of disinformation?

and why all the disinformation?

sorting out reality from noise and myopia is the challenge

if you can't bring yourself to study the available material, then you are just adding to the noise from a position of persistently unstudied opinions

As to what I believe regarding these subjects:

i believe there is ample evidence of extensive domains of activity outside of the proper control of the American public, and their elected and appointed representatives, far beyond anything reasonably required for the defense of the homeland; with massive misappropriation of funds for projects which largely work against the best interests of the people of this nation and its nominal allies and the people of the world and the sustainability of life on the planet.

How much of this might be due to the influence of intelligent entities other than human seems nearly impossible to determine in the current ocean of secrecy and flood of disinformation that covers up criminal malfeasance on the part of those who have used financial and political schemes to misappropriate the power and control of populations and resources against the best interests of all concerned.

I see a large contingent of people who see all this to be wrong and have devoted impressive intelligence, time, and resources to understanding all this and shedding light on it with a view to dissolving whatever monopolies are creating and maintaining it, so as to provide a more positive view of the future.

A surprising number of such people seem to uncover evidence that there is strong influence to the affairs of this planet from non-human intelligent actors, some very helpful, some very destructive to the interests of humans and the health of the planet.

I have myself seen enough convincing evidence to think either there are such entities here on this planet or else there is a very advanced enterprise to convince people of such … or both.

There is so much material available on all of the above that I don't think the casual nay sayers on this thread have any where near enough knowledge to justify their casual skepticism and ridicule.

I participate here in this sort of discussion mainly out of respect for the intellectual strength of experienced rock climbers and hoping to enlist some helpful participation in the examination of available evidence. A few people here offer interesting perspectives and information sources. A few others seem to just provide useless disrespect for those trying to understand.

Those of you who can't be bothered to do some homework on these subjects are just a disappointment for my attempts to enlist your help, with your just holding to myopic views based upon a refusal to look at available material.

Does that answer your question?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 02:56am PT
Yes, you're delusional. Is retirement really that boring for you? Maybe you should start coding again.

And, yet again, why did a bright boy like you work for 'them' for your entire career? Or did you just wake up in retirement? I mean, like wtf, 'they' are writing your retirement checks; how does that work for you every time you cash one?
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2016 - 07:18am PT
Tom's much more advanced then most of you that are stuck in that deep well of mechanistic materialism only.

When you're told there is an ocean (metaphor) you can't believe it because you're stuck in that deep dark well of poor fund of knowledge.

The subtle material energies that Nicola Tesla revealed remain elusive to the deep dark well dwellers who are so stuck to the gross physical plane .......
Port

Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
Apr 11, 2016 - 07:40am PT
I'd rather be a materialist than a delusionist. But hey, have fun in fantasy land.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 11, 2016 - 07:45am PT
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
if you want to shed some light on delusions of delusions:

then forget YouTube lectures trying to explain things in understandable terms and go study up a little bit on quantum theory and string theory and modern cosmology studies published from the major national labs … all proving scientifically that physical reality is actually quite different from commonly held world views

oh, and perhaps you could also study up on the masters-of-illusion Banksters and look into the Fractional Reserve finance system and Quantitative Easing, and Credit-default swaps, and Liquid Negotiable Instruments, and Securitization, etc

never mind trying to examine the hundreds of USAPs Unacknowledged Special Access Projects within the 17 competing US intelligence agencies

oblivion, denial, and complacency are symptomatic of an epidemic social disease

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 11, 2016 - 01:50pm PT
How about answering the question I put to Klimmer

Please put in your own words a documented UFO event that we can trace back to the actual event that can be used as evidence that you're claims are valid.

No links or videos

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
first off, i am not making any claims other than being interested

i respect that your question makes sense from your perspective, but your question can't be answered without qualifying what evidence you would accept from the perspective of your world view

it is easy to attempt answering your question from massive volumes of documented events and reports, but obviously you either have not looked at much and/or you have already rejected what you may have seen

so that makes it impossible to answer your question without first qualifying what evidence you would be willing to accept

since i don't know you, i can only speculate on what you might accept as reliable believable facts

clearly our government has a firm policy held throughout our lifetimes that there is no non-human intelligence presence on our planet and every attempt to show otherwise is subject to very serious efforts to discredit and obfuscate the information ... it seems you believe all that as gospel

in defense of your attitude, having managed federal projects for several decades, i can attest that any mentioning or display of interest in this subject is a serious career-limiting transgression except perhaps in private with a very trusted colleague

so let's imagine the POTUS appears on prime time news hour ABC/NBC/CBS flanked by his wife and family, the SecDef, CIA and NSA directors, and the Joint Chiefs, to make an announcement that planet earth is being invaded by an alien civilization … would you believe that?

i would not

ok then let's imagine that i visit you and during our visit a UFO saucer craft lands on the lawn and little grey men with big slanty eyes dressed in silvery suits take the two of us for a sightseeing tour of the solar system … would you believe that as evidence of an alien civilization visit?

i would not

you probably don't have a clue as to why i would not believe these events as reliable evidence, or as to what evidence i would consider believable … however what i believe or don't believe is a separate subject for another discussion independent of trying to answer your question

so i apologize being unable to properly answer your question satisfactorily without you first telling me what would be believable evidence for you

once you define your parameters of believable evidence i will see about satisfying your requirements
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 11, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
So not a single event can be discussed in detail?

But in total, they make the case that they are here or visiting.

Can you see why we have problems with the whole shebang
All we need is One case, one documented sighting, one artifact from an ET

but instead you tell us there are ZERO.

and that we have to tell you what are criteria for believing is.
My criteria is something that I can read or see with my own eyes, or reading someone that has done a scientific investigation on the subject.

That is pretty basic criteria for most people.
I don't believe things unless there are facts to back them up.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
Again, seriously, what are the odds ? I mean - given the time and distances involved and the odds of detecting the Earth at all - just how likely is it we've seen one visit in the history of the planet let alone believe the U.S. has becoming a veritable alien LAX in the cosmologically femto-ish span of sixty years? I mean, seriously?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 11, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
clearly our government has a firm policy held throughout our lifetimes that there is no non-human intelligence presence on our planet and every attempt to show otherwise is subject to very serious efforts to discredit and obfuscate the information

Which may well be true. But there are over 200 other governments in the world, and it seems unlikely -- to me, at least -- that all of them take the same view as yours does. Or would have the power to enforce that view if they did take it. So why aren't we seeing pictures from UFO observers in Norway? Or Nigeria? Or India? Or Argentina? With billions of people carrying cell phones equipped with hi-res cameras, why is there not a single good picture?

As I've said before, I expect there is other intelligent life out there. Some of that life may well have visited us, I doubt it, but it's certainly possible. But aliens in flying saucers buzzing around by the hundreds?

Edit: Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your idea. Maybe you're implying not that there are hundreds of flying saucers buzzing around, but rather that aliens (or whatever you want to call them) arrived here some time ago, and are now embedded in the US government.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 04:43pm PT
ok folks, you are just insulting your lack of research

there are in fact a number of governments and many senior officials who have opened up their files and testified to their knowledge of these things

and there are in fact thousands of images and reports flooding in from all around the world, including this country in spite of tight government security state control of the media

there have been many many very well documented cases discussed at great length and the planet is littered with solid physical evidence … you just have to look …

there is such a flood of information on these subjects from around the world that it is actually amazing to me how you folks can remain ignorant of it …

it doesn't really matter to you what i believe, and i am not interested in making any claims of great knowledge personally

but i am fascinated by the visible evidence and reports by researchers and participants and i have directed you to some sources

yet you seem willing to buy any silly story explaining away any solid evidence that can't be readily locked up behind a fence … if you even bother to notice ...

you just haven't been paying attention and are stuck in a reality paradigm that is not sustainable

please stop speculating about what i might believe and go look around for yourselves … it's all out there on the internet

the flood of real information is starting to overpower quasi-official attempts to spread disinformation

or i sincerely hope that you can comfortably live out your lives without something coming along to seriously rattle your cage
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 11, 2016 - 05:27pm PT
Only two more days left before
Friday the 13th falls on a WEdNesDay !! !
!

!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 05:54pm PT
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking an otherwise bright boy what are the odds?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
well i'm not bright enough to understand the point of either your back-handed complements or your underlying agenda

and a number of my close friends and colleagues are clearly much smarter than i

mainly i read a lot and can see systems patterns pretty well

what are the odds … funny you should ask ...

so what are the odds of finding a totally unique planet with a complex ecology based upon a very narrowly balanced mix of hydrocarbons and environmental conditions

what are the odds of that ecosystem randomly bioengineering 7 billion semi-intelligent primates all thinking they are the most highly evolved creatures in the universe, while callously destroying their own life support systems

what are the odds of the planet being littered with millions of ancient stone architectural constructions for which we don't know the purpose and that we don't know how to duplicate

what are the odds of thousands of creatures all over the planet being rapidly surgically explored in nearly identical patterns with no tracks and no blood remaining in the body … a feat that can't be duplicated in our most advanced medical laboratories

what are the odds of people all over the world reporting intriguingly similar encounters with strange creatures that don't resemble anything else we know to have evolved on this planet

what are the odds of military radar and aircraft all over the world, reporting active encounters with aerial vehicles that appear immune to what we consider to be the laws of physics

what are the odds of hundreds of thousands of strategic nuclear weapons on the planet and none of them have been used on populated areas since the first two in Japan

what are the odds of some of my brightest engineering friends claiming they didn't really invent their advanced technologies, they just were handed something surreptitiously and told to not talk about it, but make it practical and get a patent

what are the odds of our military industrial security state needing dozens of layers of secrecy to hide the secrets of what they claim does not exist

are we having fun yet
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
in case i haven't been clear enough:

i am not convinced about much of anything except that we clearly don't know much
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
To assume that you don't know is the first problem

We know many things that can not be disputed

We have connections of the known to other known things, which confirm their existence.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:38pm PT
what are the odds of...

Outside of #1 and #2 I'd say the rest come in at zero - as in didn't happen.
WBraun

climber
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
The aliens used to come to this planet all the time from the upper planetary systems.

But after listening to DR F types they stopped coming to this planet.

Why?

Because the DR F types don't deserve ......
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:48pm PT

Pretty nice work . . . I have not seen modern masonry of this quality.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
Yep
I am personally responsible for Werner's aliens from ever coming back to our planet.

Is there any hope that they will forgive me, and come back anyway?
OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 11, 2016 - 08:57pm PT
TomC = Excellent rant dude. I'm with you. Eyes wide open. Don't buy any of the bull pucky.


healyje = Flat Earther = You're the one "believing" that space is too vast and nothing could go faster than light and we are as smart as we are ever going to be. "Interstellar travel will always be impossible according to the people I believe in." But hey, free universe baby, you get to believe whatever you want.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
Aha!

thus proving the existence of a parallel universe







healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 09:48pm PT
healyje = Flat Earther = You're the one "believing" that space is too vast and nothing could go faster than light and we are as smart as we are ever going to be

Never said we're as smart as we're going to be.

As for nothing going faster than light. Yep, and even going faster than light you're still talking time travel over the distances involved. And then there's the detection problem and the motivation problem. So you're onboard with aliens expending obscene resources to teach earthlings what - advanced rockcraft? And you're onboard with a retinue of hundreds if not thousands of different advanced civilizations visiting the earth in the last, oh, hundred years or so?

I mean, seriously? And at no point could they be bothered to simply show up and publicly and unambiguously announce themselves to us?

It's all too mindlessly stupid for words and defies even basic common sense - no physics or cosmology required.

[ Edit: Oh, and don't get me wrong, I believe the universe is filled with intelligent life; but they're pinned to their ecologies, positions and times. ]
raymond phule

climber
Apr 11, 2016 - 10:18pm PT
So Aliens visit the earth and do stone work here? Couldn't they left something a little more special than stones?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 10:20pm PT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
Yeah, I mean...

"We got visited by aliens and all I got was fancy rockwork"

Seems like metalworking and cure for syphillis and smallpox would have been a tad more useful. Just saying...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:07pm PT
well if we decided to agree with everything you say, that would be on what basis

your 'common sense' and uniformed opinion
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:18pm PT
My common sense is rooted in physics, cosmology, material science and biology - what does your whole schtick have behind it? Nothing but fantasy.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 11, 2016 - 11:55pm PT
with all respect, i don't object to common sense or gut feelings

it seems perhaps you have not tried to keep current with developments in physics, cosmology, and material science … which is admittedly beyond most people, certainly including me

you seem to perhaps live in a Newtonian physics world

which is fine and adequate for building bridges or calculating orbital dynamics and interplanetary navigation

but inadequate for example to keeping the GPS constellation functioning accurately or coordinating massively parallel supercomputers

how about multiverses and the trouble with strings and quantum entanglement 'spooky action at a distance' and gravity waves and unknown sources of cosmic rays more than 10 million times greater than those in the Large Hadron Collider … enough to drive a sane man dizzy to think about it ...

never mind dark matter and energy or morphic fields and resonance

so DARPA's massive funding of quantum computing is perhaps just a money laundering scheme

i guess those can all be discounted as admittedly fantasy attempts to explain anomolous observations and unusual phenomena that probably, as you say, didn't really happen

of course leading physicist authorities at the national labs have it all figured out

not even close



sometimes you remind me of the bumper sticker that says, 'Quick, hire a teenager, while they still know everything!'

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 12, 2016 - 07:36am PT
Man Made Stone objects
from the stone age

or stone fences tramped down by cattle

Well we have to classify the first attempt as "not good enough"
to put it lightly

But I do Thank you Tom
you did put out the effort

and I would like to see more
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 12, 2016 - 10:35am PT
yeah, we see you didn't do the homework that i suggested you look at:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcD1h9DYitg

i am not saying they had to be build by 'aliens', but they make no sense in terms of analysis by authoritative anthropologists who publish that there were only a few people, perhaps 1000 in south Africa at the time those structures were built, apparently over a hundred thousand years ago

however there are millions of these large structures visible in Google Maps

each structure has thousands of very heavy stones which were transported considerable distances

the structures have no windows or doors

they are all connected by stone roads that end facing a stone wall with no door

they are all lined up astronomically and geometrically

they seem to be associated with gold deposits

also visible in Google Maps is that much of the entire area is terraced for agriculture

the whole civilization that built them seems to have been wiped out by an incredible flood with geologic markers similar to those from the incredible floods through the Columbia River basin area of Washington State

and we are told that civilization only emerged on this planet about 6000 years ago

meh!
raymond phule

climber
Apr 12, 2016 - 11:27am PT
I guess that you read an article written by the "scientist" Michael Tellinger?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Tellinger

It really doesn't seem like everyone agrees that the formations are 200000 years old.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machadodorp
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 12, 2016 - 11:53am PT
i don't know that Tellinger claims to be a scientist

but he has been a diligent researcher

and even some of the most diligent and respected researchers and scientists have serious detractors

perhaps you have heard of Galileo

aging ancient stuff is a challenging enterprise, particularly when it sheds inconvenient light on the research of established authorities

check out the career of J Harlen Bretz:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2014/10/the-scablands-a-scarred-landscape-as-strange-as-fiction/1/
raymond phule

climber
Apr 12, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
I have only done 5 minutes google research on the matter so maybe I am wrong and you are free to give other and better sources.

But to me it kind of looks like your "facts" come from a single source with limited credibility. For example is it some kind of consensus that the formations are 200000 years old (my wikipedia source seems to say that they are a few hundred years old)?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 12, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
so when i spend days or weeks or more looking into something interesting and decide it might be worthy of your attention and so refer you to a summary presentation or article

please appreciate my attempts to remain polite when you can't be troubled to spend more than a few minutes on your decision to reject the information source


there are a lot more people looking at these conversations than are willing to join the fray

i get private emails from people who appreciate the information and don't want to expose themselves to the noise
raymond phule

climber
Apr 12, 2016 - 12:13pm PT
Sorry, but you didn't even give your source (except that it might be in a 4 hour long youtube video) and presented it like facts. I did a search and found an article that made the some points written by a non scientists calling himself a scientist. I continued to search and found completely different information.

Sorry, that I don't believe that those formations are 200 000 thousands years old.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 12, 2016 - 05:47pm PT
Dingus, you're off topic. We're currently talking about the Giant Balls of Machu Pichu, or as some theorize, the giant Giant Stone Eggs of the Birdmen of Machu Pichu. Seems that the nephlim laid these eggs to preserve the Birdman (and Birdwormen, for that matter) because of the approach of an alien comet that was going to destroy the world, or at least cause great inconvenience.

Turns out that recently discovered extremely ancient runes, deciphered with the help of the recently (and very fortuitously) discovered 'Code Book of the Ancients' indicate that in fact, as verified by many sources, the alien comet that struck the earth was an ice ball. This is where the story of Noah originated; the ice comet melted as it entered the earth's atmosphere and it rained comet juice for forty days and forty nights, flooding the entire earth and destroying the venerated city of Atlantis in the process.

In any case, the Giant Balls (or eggs) survived the flood and eventually hatched, reviving the ancient race of the Birdmen (and Birdwomen) of Machu Pichu. The rest, as they say, is history.

Needless to say, this short summary of the cataclysmic impact of the ice comet Moroni with the ancient earth covers only some of the facts. More details are available upon request. If you have any doubt of the veracity of this exposition, please disprove it.
cintune

climber
Colorado School of Mimes
Apr 12, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
Nephil-Lite. Less filling, tastes great.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 12, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
couchmaster

climber
Apr 12, 2016 - 06:54pm PT



DAMIT, where'd my long thoughtful post just get off too ? Short version, stop teasing Tom and Klimmer, start teasing these folks spending over $100 million on the search for alien life. Link: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/stephen-hawking-billionaire-team-100-million-quest-find/story?id=38331436






My what nice balls you have there Craig. ...? wait...HEY NOW!
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 12, 2016 - 07:36pm PT
If they find something, it will be worth the $100 Million

so far, nothing
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 12, 2016 - 08:19pm PT
Randisi, (and I barely am barely able to type this as I shake with fear and revelation) is it possible that those ..... creatures.......are some sort of giant alien nephilim frozen in the, to them, alien soil of earth? And, should they be released, might they, in their rage, trigger some sort of apocalyptic Armageddon, snuffing out all life on earth, sending us all to meet G-d to atone for our (perceived) sins? Are they in fact a manifestation of the Donald? Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Apr 12, 2016 - 08:50pm PT
Just really big chess pawns.

The Nephilim are on a bigger scale than you are even imagining.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 13, 2016 - 04:10am PT
Any DNA testing on them? Would seem pretty straightforward to figure out, though mutations generate all kinds of organisms which seem anomalous to our expectations.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 13, 2016 - 07:54am PT
Nice cartoonograph Randisi! My suspicion is that the mud generated by the ice comet Moroni when it turned to comet juice after entering the earth's atmosphere captured those nephilim and then hardened, trapping them to this day.

I did a quick calculation as to the size of the ice comet Moroni. I assumed that Noah's Ark was grounded about halfway up Mt. Ararat, approximately 2500 m above sea level. Using this height I then calculated the volume of water needed to raise sea level to that height. Turns out the ice comet Moroni was about 1220 km in diameter, with a total volume of about 9.5 X 10^8 km^3. My guess is that it was moving pretty slowly when it struck the earth and turned to juice.

When it rained for forty days and nights, the rain was falling at about 2.6 m/hr, which is a heavy rain indeed!

Edited for spelling/grammar.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Apr 14, 2016 - 11:21am PT
Backing away slowly over here.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 14, 2016 - 11:50am PT
Phantom X ........

Niagara Falls!!! Slowly I turned, and step by step, inch by inch.......

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Edited just because.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 14, 2016 - 12:46pm PT
Next we'll be hearing Klimmer and Tom have joined the SpaceX truthers...
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 14, 2016 - 03:40pm PT
Celestial Phenomenon Over Nuremberg, April 14th, 1561.

http://publicdomainreview.org/collections/celestial-phenomenon-over-nuremberg-april-14th-1561/

455 years ago, today. The witnessing of some kind of alien spaceship battle occurring in the Bavarian skies. Must be true, since there were eye witnesses…

—————————————————————

http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Saucers-Modern-Things-Skies/dp/0691018227

"In the threatening situation of the world today, when people are beginning to see that everything is at stake, the projection-creating fantasy soars beyond the realm of earthly organizations and powers into the heavens, into interstellar space, where the rulers of human fate, the gods, once had their abode in the planets.... Even people who would never have thought that a religious problem could be a serious matter that concerned them personally are beginning to ask themselves fundamental questions. Under these circumstances it would not be at all surprising if those sections of the community who ask themselves nothing were visited by `visions,' by a widespread myth seriously believed in by some and rejected as absurd by others." —C. G. Jung, in Flying Saucers : A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Skies
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Apr 14, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
"455 years ago, today."

Only one day after Friday the 13th fell on a Wednesday !
Pure coincidance? I think nut. Aliens in the sky has now been automated to mass chEmtrails! ConSpiro-Sky
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 14, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
a world view perspective is sort of arbitrary as to how it was established in your mind

most people just accept their word view as the way it is, without questioning or critical examination

so how are you guys doing in there?


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/through-childs-eyes-how-learn-see-differently-avi-bar-zeev?trk=hb_ntf_MEGAPHONE_ARTICLE_POST
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2016 - 07:13am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2016 - 08:12am PT
Alien life forms disguised as plants

They live among us

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 15, 2016 - 08:26am PT
Craig, those are fascinating; nice pictures. Where were the spheres?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 15, 2016 - 08:29am PT
There is a whole thread devoted to balls!

I copied the first photo from there
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/542502/Whos-got-big-balls
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Apr 15, 2016 - 08:52am PT
The same guy that believes Jesus is the traffic cop, also supports Trump and guarantees his election, also believes in this alien spaceship on the moon, also teaches school....

Got it.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Apr 15, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
Winemaker....d-t d-t,

I'm no mathematician but if your suggesting that NASA uses the same formula for jet propulsion as the Stooges do for comedy I couldn't agree more.

Mo: You knuckleheads stay out of trouble and feed the cat out on the porch. (Countdown)

Larry: I didn't know our cat had a stripe down it's back! (Lift off)

Curly: Ya-ya-ya nyuk nyuk nyuk. (One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind)

Or something like that.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 15, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Apr 16, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
You can watch this on Netflix.


I think Klimmer and Tom Cochrane were technical consultants.


"The secrecy can only be contained so long. It is like a dead body that has been improperly disposed of. At some point, it will rise to the surface."

Really crazy sh#t.
jonnyrig

climber
Apr 17, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 17, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
While we are talking about documentaries, how about 'Mirage Men'

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2254010/?ref_=ttpl_pl_tt

How the US government created a myth that took over the world. ET visitors... crashed UFOs... back-engineered alien technology... the government cover-up of a secret that would change the world as we know it... These are the core elements of the modern UFO mythology, a story that has captivated farmers, princes and generals for generations, and shows no sign of loosening its grip on the popular imagination. But what if, instead of covering up the UFO story, elements in the US military had actively encouraged it as part of their Cold War counterintelligence arsenal - manufacturing the myth of the UFO as a powerful weapon of mass deception and the perfect cover for all manner of clandestine technologies and operations. Now, for the first time, some of those whose actions have directly shaped the UFO mythology, and some of their victims, tell their stories, revealing a surreal disturbing and sometimes tragic sequence of events that is part Manchurian Candidate and part Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Mirage Men draws viewers into a saucer-shaped hall of mirrors, a shadow-world where every lie contains elements of the truth, and the truth is far stranger than the UFO believers, or their detractors, would have you believe.
 Written by Anonymous
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2016 - 10:53am PT
G-d knows the future and he tells us before it happens to warn us and prepare us, and to get our hearts and our lives back to G-d before it happens so we may be saved.


G-d has warned us for a long time that a judgement is coming to Earth again. Yeshua said the last days before his return "... would be like The Days of Noah." To know what those days were like one must read The Book of Enoch, (aka 1 Enoch). Those days were not good. Pure evil. G-d had to wipe out all life except for a man who walked in G-d's ways, and thereby also saving his family. That man would be Noah.


Well G-d told us over 2000 years ago in The Book of Revelation, that another judgement was headed to Earth. Impact by either meteoroids, asteroids, or cometary fragments. Read about Star Wormwood and the impacts that come to Earth just before that, and then also due to Wormwood in The Book of Revelation Chapter 8.




Now it has been revealed the signal "Comets" came through in 1977 in the search for Extra-Terrestrial intelligent life via signals from space.


‘Wow!’ Signal Was…Wait For It…Comets

17 Apr , 2016 by Bob King

http://www.universetoday.com/128445/wow-signal-wait-comets/



G-d's word told us of this phenomenon over 2000 years ago before we finally became aware of the science of astrogeology, meteoritics, and Impact science within the last 60 years. Now we know. Now we know its a very real possibility. We have seen it happen to the planet Jupiter live via telescope. Science has finally caught up to G-d's word on this topic of interest. We even now look to space for such an event occurring. But G-d tells us it will hit us and we won't be able to do a thing about it. 1/3 of the Earth will die.



Project Wormwood

http://www.sws.bom.gov.au/IPSHosted/neo/





G-d our maker is way ahead of us and warns us. We should listen.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 11:01am PT
God knows the future,

Therefore, no free will.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
Klimmer,

Why have a project Wormwood if there is nothing we can do about the impending impact?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 18, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
Klimmer, we're finally on the same wavelength!!!! See my previous post about the ice comet Moroni, comet juice, the flood, and giant balls for your edification.
dirtbag

climber
Apr 18, 2016 - 01:47pm PT
God.

God.

God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.
God.


Not G-d.

God.

Now watch her smite me.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
God knows the future,

Therefore, no free will.

This what clueless idiots always say. Sh!t they know nothing about.

and then run their stupid mouths.

God is the past, present and the future and thus free will happens when one dovetails their actions to God ......
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
^^^^Thanks for making no sense as always.


I like to think that God knows every possible choice we can make and every possible permutation of those choices for our future.

Hence we still have free will but God knows the future.
WBraun

climber
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
If God knows the future then he is the future.

There is absolutely nothing in existence that isn't God or his different energies.

There is absolutely no separation ever.

Except in the minds of the fools ........

brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
^^^That I can get on board with.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
It's that same energy that powers our universe and fights against the powers of entropy.
TLP

climber
Apr 18, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
Way cool stapelioids, Craig. Too bad the interwebs can't convey, uhh, aromas. A few decades ago, I was living in a southern state and had a Stapelia gigantea that had never flowered, so I forgot all about it. It was in a window, great growing conditions. I went climbing for the weekend in early summer (warm!) and came back to my closed up apartment that had warmed up considerably (hot!). And WHOOOO EEEE something had died. I looked everywhere for a dead mouse or worse, checked the garbage. Wondered if my beeraholic neighbor had kicked it weeks previous. Everything. Then I remembered the plant. Man, it would have brought carrion flies from hundreds of miles away.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 03:51pm PT
If Klimmer's god knows all, then his god knows what choices people will make.

Still no free will under Klimmer's god.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 04:59pm PT
I think God can know the future but he leaves our choices and our future up to us.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
Huh?
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Apr 18, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
Wouldn't it have been awesome if Indiana Jones found Noah's ark instead of that stupid gold box. Well the gold box did melt the nazi's faces, that was rad.

But Indy piloting an ark would be too cool. He'd launch it off a mountainside then get in a chase with a Nazi uboat. Jack Sparrow and John Madden (a Raider you know) could join him and blast those nazis into oblivion.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Apr 18, 2016 - 06:43pm PT
So this god-thing is communicating via comets only to those hip enough to understand it and the message is that it loves us and wants us to change our evil ways so we don't burn in eternal fire. But isn't this thing the creator of everything we know? So why doesn't it do something completely undeniable that even a cretin could believe like simulcast this message on all forms of media in every language 24 hrs a day for a month? Pretty sure it would get more converts that way.

Or maybe the simplest explanation is that there is no god-thing and there will be no apocalypse (at least not by some zombie ghost).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
G-d and free will.

We do have free will. My Rabbi explained it like this to me ...

Imagine a huge ship with many different levels/floors. The ship will leave a certain port on time and on schedule. It will arrive at another port on time and on schedule. We are all on board that ship as it travels. This is G-d's will and we can't do anything about that.

However, we have the freedom of the entire ship along this journey. We can self determine using our free will to spend the entire time in the hottest, dirtiest, part of the ship down at the bottom slaving our lives away in the engine room, a living hell if you can imagine or ...

We can choose to stay top side in the Sun enjoying life, family, friends, loved ones and doing things together having a blast and enjoying G-d's presence in our lives.

There are many different levels we can choose to be along this journey. We have the choice. We can be where ever we want to be on the ship.

What we can't choose is the fact that we are on the ship. On the journey. G-d gives us life. G-d chose that for us. We choose what to do with this life. We will go from port to port along this journey. There is a beginning to this journey and there is an ultimate end and destination. G-d told us what that would be. Read the end of The Book of Revelation.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 06:55pm PT
It's not surprising you would accept such a sloppy explanation from your Rabbi.

If god knows everything, he knows what choices you will make on the 'ship'.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2016 - 06:59pm PT
Skeptic,


G-d has done that. He gave us the most popular best seller ever in the History of Earth, The Holy Bible. All we have to do is read it and study it. Know it. Make it a part of our hearts and G-d's living word will change you for the better and save you.

The proof over and over is prophecy fulfilled to the letter. He told us about these things thousands of years ago and gave us intricate detail of what would happen. And when it does, happen as he foretold, then our faith is confirmed and strengthened. He gives us plenty of evidence. You just have to be hungry enough to want to know and look for it.

To overwhelm everyone with absolute undeniable proof and all at once, would overwhelm mankind. We wouldn't be able to take it. He would rather you want to seek after him because that's what you want. You want to know G-d. He doesn't want to overwhelm and step all over your free-will. He wants us to want to know him, and seek after him, and love him because that's what we truly want.

G-d said knock on the door, and it will be opened unto you.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
What garbage.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 18, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
Klimmer, this pretty much says it way better than I can. From Catch 22, Yossarian and Lt. Scheisskopf’s wife are spending Thanksgiving in bed and having a discussion about God:

“And don’t tell me God works in mysterious way,” Yossarian continued, hurtling over her objection. “There’s nothing so mysterious about it. He’s not working at all. He’s playing. Or else He’s forgotten all about us. That’s the kind of God you people talk about – a country bumpkin, a clumsy, bungling, brainless, conceited, uncouth hayseed. Good God, how much reverence can you have for a Supreme Being who finds it necessary to include such phenomena as phlegm and tooth decay in His divine system of creation? What in the world was running through that warped, evil, scatological mind of his when He robbed old people of the power to control their bowel movements? Why in the world did He ever create pain?”

“Pain?” Lieutenant Scheisskopf’s wife pounced upon the word victoriously. “Pain is a useful symptom. Pain is a warning to us of bodily dangers.”

“And who created the dangers?” Yossarian demanded. He laughed caustically. “Oh, He was really being charitable to us when He gave us pain! Why couldn’t He have used a doorbell instead to notify us, or one of His celestial choirs? Or a system of blue-and-red neon tubes right in the middle of each person’s forehead. Any jukebox manufacturer worth his salt could have done that. Why couldn’t He?”

“People would certainly look silly walking around with red neon tubes in the middle of their foreheads.”

“They certainly look beautiful now writhing in agony or stupefied with morphine, don’t they? What a colossal, immoral blunderer! When you consider the opportunity and power He had to really do a job, and then look at the stupid, ugly little mess He made of it instead. His sheer incompetence is almost staggering. It’s obvious He never met a payroll. Why, no self-respecting businessman would hire a bungler like Him as even a shipping clerk!”

Lieutenant Sccheisskopf’s wife had turned ashen in disbelief and was ogling him with alarm. “You’d better not talk that way about Him, honey,” she warned him reprovingly in a low and hostile voice. “He might punish you.”

“Isn’t he punishing me enough?” Yossarian snorted resentfully. “You know, we mustn’t let him get away with it. Oh no, we certainly mustn’t let Him get away scot-free for all the sorrow He’s caused us. Someday I’m going to make Him pay. I know when. On the Judgment Day. Yes, that’s the day I’ll be close enough to reach out and grab that little yokel by His neck and-“

“Stop it! Stop it!” Lieutenant Scheisskopf’s wife screamed suddenly, and began beating him ineffectually about the head with both fists. “Stop it!”

Yossarian ducked behind his arm for protection while she slammed away at him in feminine fury for a few seconds , and then he caught her determinedly by the wrists and forced her gently back down on the bed. “What the hell are you getting so upset about?” he asked her bewilderingly in a tone of contrite amusement. “I thought you didn’t believe in God.”

“I don’t,” she sobbed, bursting violently into tears. “But the God I don’t believe in is a good God, a just God, a merciful God. He’s not the mean and stupid God you make Him out to be.”

Pretty much says it all. Thanks to Joseph Heller for expressing it so well. Any spelling errors are mine. Klimmer, if you haven't read it you should, it will open your eyes (well, honestly, doubtful of that).

Edit: I spent a lot of time finding and typing this, so give me some credit for that. This was really, really hard work.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Apr 18, 2016 - 07:45pm PT
Uh-huh. Baloney. So this god-thingy wants us to worship it, yet it is afraid that we'd be utterly incapacitated were it to unequivocably reveal itself in time to save us from a horrific eternal fate, but it has no worries we'll be overwhelmed when the apocalypse comes down. Seems logical enough :-/
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 18, 2016 - 08:00pm PT
Klimmer, how does this all tie into the Giant (sorry, Massive) Ark on the Moon? I'm losing track, with all the Birdmen (and Birdwomen) of Machu Picha, giant eggs, comets, et al. Is the Giant (Massive, although actually no one has measured its mass; maybe as an alien artifact it is massless, assuming it actually exists) Ark on the Moon sent by God, or is it aliens who are supposed to deliver some message, or exactly what? Randisi, you have a clear head and seem to have some connection with the nephilim, maybe you can link this together. Please.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
TGo back to the beginning of this thread. There is a book published regarding the whole NASA Apollo 20 story as related by Cmdr. William Rutledge. Is the whole story fake? Could be. Is the massive mothership there on the backside of the Moon? Yes. It's in too many official NASA images, many of which are stereograms and it can be seen clearly in 3D.

What is it? Who are they? Not my original hypothesis, but I agree with it. There was a war. A crashed ship. Were the Nephilim, many of which are giants but not all are giants, trying to escape Earth? Were they trying to go somewhere and escape? Were they trying to escape Earth being destroyed by flood? Were the Angels of the Lord in battle with them? The Nephilim are the off-spring of fallen man and fallen angels. The worst of both. Large, very intelligent, very strong, and very evil. Read The Book of Enoch. Nephilim means the fallen ones.

The Bible enumerates many stories of the Angels of G-d battling the fallen angels that went with Satan. Was this another battle between the Angels of Light fighting against the progeny of Darkness? Maybe. Timeline not exactly sure. There were civilizations of Angels across the "Stones of Fire", the planets, before G-d out of anger against Satan brought it all to an end. This was long before modern man was on the face of the Earth. We are talking millions, perhaps billions of years ago. Recall the Angels watched the formation of the Universe, read The Book of Job. They existed before the Big Bang,13.7 Billion users ago or so.
monolith

climber
state of being
Apr 18, 2016 - 08:33pm PT
Love the fairy tales.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Apr 18, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Klimmer,

How can you say those nasa images are definitive proof. I've looked at your weblinks and the photos and I was never overwhelmed with certainty.

I come from a geology background and I've seen many aerials, stereograms, and map projections. Those images are grainy and inconclusive at best.

People also thought Enceladus was a mother ship in orbit around Saturn. Lo and behold it was just an icy moon with a really high albedo. Occcams razor wins every time with time. Time will prove there is no ark on the moon.

Unless aliens have already made side deals with the government and there is a major cover up conspiracy we will find out the truth one day.


MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Apr 18, 2016 - 09:24pm PT
Imagine a huge ship with many different levels/floors. The ship will leave a certain port on time and on schedule. It will arrive at another port on time and on schedule. We are all on board that ship as it travels. This is G-d's will and we can't do anything about that.

However, we have the freedom of the entire ship along this journey. We can self determine using our free will to spend the entire time in the hottest, dirtiest, part of the ship down at the bottom slaving our lives away in the engine room, a living hell if you can imagine or ...

This verifies that I don't give a ship.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Apr 18, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
The commodes on the Massive Ark measure twenty cubits long by eighteen cubits wide by sixteen cubits deep.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Apr 18, 2016 - 10:23pm PT
^^^that's funny
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 18, 2016 - 10:31pm PT
Klimmer, really, read your own stuff. You've fallen down the rabbit hole and you can't get up. There is no hope for you, unless your god (in Her infinite wisdom) spares you and redeems you to the truth of your existence.

Edit: Did you read my post above in regards to the nature of god? What are your thoughts?
MisterE

Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
Apr 18, 2016 - 10:45pm PT
^^Winemaker has at least one awesome bicep:


you should listen to him, Klimmer..
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 19, 2016 - 04:12pm PT
Sure, why not?

Crackpot Creationist Says Stonehenge Built by Race of Satanic Giants
By Hrafnkell Haraldsson on Sat, Apr 16th, 2016 at 7:57 am
http://www.politicususa.com/2016/04/16/crackpot-creationist-stonehenge-built-race-satanic-giants.html
Satan needed a base from which to attack Israel and this makes sense because the Salisbury Plain is so close to Israel...oh wait...


[Click to View YouTube Video]

“He build his little squatter’s hut up there on the Temple Mount, you know that temple, because he knows what the Bible says about that place. I weaved through why and what is the evidence for giant beings on this earth. We all know about Stonehenge, right? That’s just one of hundreds and hundreds of gigantic places around the world that testify that some sort of supernatural power or giants were involved in its construction.”
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 19, 2016 - 05:26pm PT
Geez rmuir, do we really need Satanic Giants to build Stonehenge (not that I doubt the veracity of this video guy, of course - it's on youtube!!!)? Here's a video (also on youtube) of a guy building huge stony stuff in his backyard without any Giants, Satanic or not, using human power and wood. Klimmer, let's apply Occam's razor to this problem and see how it shaves out.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

This is actually pretty cool.




Gary

Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
Apr 19, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
He couldn't have done that if aliens hadn't told him how to do it.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 19, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
Damn Gary, you're right!!!! I should have thought of that, it sort of fits in with the Occam stuff.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
Apr 19, 2016 - 06:56pm PT
^^^ True. So very true.
7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Apr 19, 2016 - 08:39pm PT
Winemaker, That's a great passage from Catch 22.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 19, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
So Klimmer, I'm sort of going like (imagine this) one hand and then the other, sort of weighing things, back and forth, up and down, Giant Satanic creatures built Stonehenge, or, on the other hand, humans using tools that they could have made (see previous video on youtube). Which seems more likely? This, Klimmer, is Occam's razor. The simplest explanation, without all sorts of twists and turns and this's and that's, is probably the correct answer.

That's the beauty of science, and as a science teacher, I'm sure you agree with me. This then leads to the likeliest explanation of events. How say you? Complex or simple? Straight forward or complicated, with all sorts of this and that? I suspect, no, I'm certain, what your response will be. You are no science person. If I weave some sort of convoluted explanation of things, involving Nephilim, Satanic Giants, Arks on the Moon, God anointing Donald Trump as the chosen by Jesus, Birdmen of Machu Picu, does that make sense? Holy sh#t Klimmer, Trump is the chosen one? Damn, we're doomed.

Edit: Unless Klimmer's right. Then we're REALLY doomed. At least I am.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 19, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
@7SacredPools. My Bible; it was a lot of typing, glad you liked it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 19, 2016 - 11:31pm PT
The above video of the back yard solo stonemason megalithic mover is really cool.

All about 6 simple machines that fall under the 2 groups:

Levers and Ramps

Classic simple and fundamental physics. He's mostly using levers.


However, ladies and gentlemen, what you seem to fail to realize is that he isn't using stone, but concrete, or cement. He made his huge blocks in situ on site. Ancient Megalithic movers didn't do that. They used quarried stone. Moving them tens of miles, hundreds of miles, to sometimes thousands of miles. Gets a whole lot more complicated.

There are megalithic structures around the world we just don't know how it was done. Even with our advanced stone work and masonry work today we are baffled how precise and perfect some of this ancient stone work is. We have no clue how it was done. Even with our best techniques we couldn't duplicate these structures today. Ancient Aliens on the History channel seems to deal with this topic a great deal.





Yonaguni-Jima

https://www.google.com/search?q=Yonaguni-Jima&client=safari&hl=en&prmd=mivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjp4JruzpzMAhVFTSYKHb0VA6oQ_AUICSgC&biw=320&bih=460


http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/yonaguni-monument
raymond phule

climber
Apr 20, 2016 - 12:14am PT
I would be much more impressed by an old conctretehenge than an old stonehenge.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 20, 2016 - 01:45am PT
Your Catch-22 reference reminded me of a more recent version of the same thing...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 21, 2016 - 10:36am PT
^^^^^^^^

Cosmiccragsman, we will soon have proof; I just bought a nephelometer for the wine lab I'm starting. Really. So if anyone feels the need for testing, let me know.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 21, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
TLP
I guess you must be on the inside of the truth about aliens like me
The Stapelianathoids are for sure from an alien universe

They use the smell of rotting flesh to bring in other alien life forms that act as communicators, these are disguised as insects.

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 22, 2016 - 06:19am PT
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 27, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 30, 2016 - 01:39pm PT
Klimmer, have you seen this yet? It explains a lot!!!!!!! Maybe the Giant Ark is really German leftovers.

http://exopolitics.org/german-secret-societies-colonized-mars-in-1940s/
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 30, 2016 - 05:00pm PT
They spotted this helmet on Mars
Which is all the proof I need,
The Nazis have Colonized Mars!!
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 02:40pm PT
My G_d!!!!!!! Look closely, it's The Donald!!!!! He's everywhere.

Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 16, 2016 - 03:28pm PT
Are we supposed to believe that beings advanced enough to pilot an "ark" across the galaxy couldn't steer the thing well enough to miss a predictably slow moving moon?
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 16, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
Yes, of course we are. It is a common mistake to overestimate our alien friends. While they are advanced they're not that advanced. For example, those ladders on their saucers. Stuff like that.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
May 16, 2016 - 04:42pm PT
Aliens often don't have the common sense of the blunt skulls.
Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber
the pitch above you
May 16, 2016 - 05:05pm PT
While they are advanced they're not that advanced. For example, those ladders on their saucers.

Interstellar equivalent of the inconvenience of a rooftop tent. I wonder if they have a better system for waste than going to the RV dump station.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 05:11pm PT
Geez Skep, the ark crashed a long time ago, almost at the beginning of time, about 6000 years ago. Back then gravity hadn't decayed to its current low level, so the moon was spinning around the earth like a frickin' top. It was pretty hard steering that landing, you betcha!
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
May 16, 2016 - 05:13pm PT
But,but, but there is an
ark on the moon!

Like certain other things,
you've got to have
faith and belief.

Logic and reason
can get in the way.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
locker, by definition God can't 'fuk' up.

The dudette is omnipotent; She's just leaving a little morsel of uncertainty in our lives to spice things up. You have to understand that She wants you to decide things for yourself, because of 'free will', but you have to come to the right conclusion, so She leaves little hints about shite and you, sir, have to figure it out! Except She knows all and thus knows what you are going to decide (but can't tell you the answer, because free will). But the best part is that there's only one right answer, so you better study really, really hard. Or else.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 05:57pm PT
Yes, locker, but do you BELIEVE?
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
May 16, 2016 - 06:09pm PT
Yep, there they were,
embryonic souls standing
in line like it's a
soup kitchen, waiting for
some brains or some
sh!t to get
plopped on the tray
of existence.

Quite insightful
bragman.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 16, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
A cafeteria such as that would be lucky to rate two stars at best.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 16, 2016 - 06:42pm PT
I wanted to know more,
so this is what I found



This proves that the Nazi's colonized Mars in the 1940s

It's a f-ing Nazi Helmut on Mars...
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2016 - 08:51pm PT
Apparently Hillary Clinton is bat poop crazy ...

C'mon you guys you can't have it both ways. Why would she promise to look into something non-existant? She likes chasing fairy tales huh? So why would you vote for her?

Lol


A campaign promise: Hillary Clinton vows to investigate UFOs, Area 51 and alien visitors
http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jan/4/campaign-promise-hillary-clinton-vows-investigate-/

Hillary Clinton Vows To Investigate UFOs And Area 51
“I’m going to get to the bottom of it.”
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/hillary-clinton-vows-to-investigate-ufos_us_5687073ce4b014efe0da95db
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
Jim, I understand and agree with what you are saying, but unfortunately the Klimmers of this world have, through slavish obedience to some preached explanation of existence that is powerful and palatable because it absolves them of critical thought, pushed themselves into positions of power such that they can force their beliefs onto us. Make no mistake, the main appeal of this 'faith' is the fact that believers no longer have to evaluate and think, rather they are told what is true and how to act. No longer having to decide releases them from the burden of thought, and, as we have seen throughout history, this is the basis of an autocratic system.

Examples? the obvious ones, of course, Facism, Nazism, Pol Pot, Chairman Mao, Stalin, the list is endless. And what was required for these authoritarian systems to exist was acceptance that they correctly told people how to act and think. George Orwell was not far wrong, with 1984 existing in 2016 with Fox 'news' and the constant drum beat of propaganda, lies, and repetition.

Seriously, God save this country from the likes of Klimmer, who would follow Trump despite the fact that Trump is the antithesis of what he purports to believe in. Klimmer and kinder are able to gloss over what and who this Trump person really is. I really fear that Trump has a chance to win this election, simply because of the inability of many of our citizens to examine real evidence and think critically, to throw off the smothering blanket of lies and repetition that this election has become.

Maybe I'll move to the moon and live in the Ark. But what would the aliens say?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
May 16, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
after six years of "the truth will be revealed soon"

you have to think that Ms. Clinton's "investigation" is going to be disappointing to Klimmer... on the other hand, such a disappointment just fuels the conspiracy theory!

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 09:04pm PT
Not quite that straight forward Klimmer. Being open to looking and believing are two different things: I've seen a UFO (unidentified flying object) but didn't think it was an alien spacecraft. I couldn't identify it, it was weird, but I seriously doubt it was aliens. There's a difference, maybe too subtle for you to understand.

From Mother Jones:

Once again, Hillary Clinton has pledged that she will discover as much as possible about government involvement in UFO research and share the information with the American people. Clinton was on Jimmy Kimmel's talk show Thursday night, and Kimmel brought up the fact that he'd asked former President Bill Clinton about his efforts on UFO disclosure during his administration. (Kimmel has also asked President Barack Obama about UFOs.)

"He said that he did do that and he didn't find anything," Kimmel said. Hillary Clinton replied, "Well, I'm going to do it again."

This is the second time during the last few months that Clinton has said she wants to tackle this issue. In late December, Clinton told a New Hampshire reporter that she thought "we may have been visited already," and that she would "get to the bottom" of the issue if elected president. Three weeks ago, Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta, an X-Files fan and longtime Clinton aide, told a Las Vegas television station that he's pressed Clinton on the issue.

"I've talked to Hillary about that, this is a little bit of a cause of mine which is that people really want to know what the government knows, and there are still classified files that could be declassified," Podesta said at the time.

And while many dismiss UFOs with eye-rolling skepticism, Clinton showed Kimmel that she's familiar with the more scientific side of the issue, correcting his use of the term "UFO."

"There's a new name—it's 'unexplained aerial phenomenon,'" she said. "UAP, that's the latest nomenclature."

UAP is the term used by the scientific and evidence-based wing of the UFO research community, and is an attempt by those interested in the issue to get away from the derision and mockery that the term "UFO" typically provokes. When Podesta was interviewed in Las Vegas, he said, "I think I've convinced her that we need an effort to kind of go look at that and declassify as much as we can so that people have their legitimate questions answered and more attention and more discussion about unexplained aerial phenomena can happen without people who are in public life who are serious about this being ridiculed."
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2016 - 09:05pm PT
Open your minds ...

Watch the documentary Sirius by Dr. Steven Greer


http://www.siriusdisclosure.com

SIRIUS: from Dr. Steven Greer - Original Full-Length Documentary Film (FREE!)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5C_-HLD21hA
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Although a word of warning, I respect Dr. Stephen Greer, but he has gone down the path of New Age. He doesn't understand who they really are. He trusts ET. They aren't who they say they are. Satan and his minions can appear as Angels of Light. Last Days movement to take down mankind. The Good Book said this would happen. It's happening.

http://www.jeffersonscott.com/nonfiction/ufos.htm

http://www.alienresistance.org/
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 16, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
Ain't wasting 2 hours of my life on that shite. More like Satan and his minions can appear as Klimmer, sucking my life away in pointless posting. Oops, that's me right now, a pointless post. Good night and sweet dreams to all, I have to work tomorrow.

But one last thought: Maybe you, Klimmer, are really a tool of Satan, supporting Satan's spawn, Trump. I'm pretty sure I could figure out some sort of numerology thing to show Trump = Satan (they do have the same number of letters, and T does follow S, and P is the first consonant to follow N, and M is the letter before N ....... but later). Just let me reassure you, there is a connection and it's pretty fukin scary.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2016 - 08:20am PT
You know if this topic wasn't of interest it wouldn't be in the news nor discussed by governments of many nations. But it is of interest. Many people know something is going on, they are witnesses, including many governments who are more forthcoming than our own. Apparently the world is bat-poop crazy because they are curious and they just want to know.

Some people are curious and want to know, and have no fear. Some people are in fear, strike out at others, use ad hominem attacks, bury their heads in the sand and say it just doesn't exist. Seriously sad state of being.



UFO News 2016: Obama White House Responds To Hillary Clinton's Promise To Disclose Area 51 And UAP Documents

By Andrew Whalen
http://www.idigitaltimes.com/ufo-news-2016-obama-white-house-responds-hillary-clintons-promise-disclose-area-51-535113


While past presidents and presidential candidates have joked about UFOs, Hillary Clinton is one of the first mainstream candidates to promise disclosure of classified Area 51, UFO and Unexplained Aerial Phenomena (UAP) documents should she be elected president.

“I want to open the files as much as we can,” Clinton said in a recent radio interview. In the wake of a New York Times article that brought renewed attention to Clinton’s most unexpected campaign commitment, President Barack Obama’s White House was asked to respond.

The answer, from President Obama’s press secretary Josh Earnest, will disappoint UFO enthusiasts still hoping for disclosure on the federal level:
“I have to admit, I don’t have a tab for Area 51 in my briefing book today,” Earnest began. After a joke from the press corp. Earnest proposed a “grand conspiracy” to keep him from answering the question thoroughly.
“I’m not aware of any plans the President has to make public any information about this,” Earnest said, ending hope that UFO disclosure will come from the White House in 2016.

Steve Bassett, executive director of The Citizen Hearing on Disclosure, believes Hillary Clinton’s openness on the issue will prompt the Obama administration to disclose classified extraterrestrial information. “Clinton’s presidential campaign and her connection to the ET issue may offer the best chance to end the truth embargo on the ET issue,” Bassett said. “Obama will be the Disclosure president — hopefully well before the November election.”

Not only has Clinton evinced a past interest in extraterrestrials — in 1995 she was photographed carrying Are We Alone?: Philosophical Implications of the Discovery of Extraterrestrial Life by Paul Davies (above) — but she’ll also have the backing of campaign chairman John Podesta, who has crusaded for the release of government information on unexplained aerial phenomena for decades.

While previous presidential administrations, Obama’s included, have treated declassification of Area 51 and UAP files as a joke, a Clinton presidency might at least take the demand seriously.


Once again, I guess Hillary R. Clinton is bat-poop crazy huh? (Well she is a liar about many things, yes that is true.) But she seems to be curious about this, as was Bill. Bill got shut down. He didn't have a need to know. They didn't tell him anything. He learned nothing.

If Hillary gets in, and I don't think she will, the new boss may be just the same as the old boss. And there it will linger. Cover-up and no disclosure.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
May 19, 2016 - 08:27am PT
I love how politics have now made it into this crankloon mega thread.

This sh#t is great.

Thanks Klimmer for the non-stop entertainment.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 19, 2016 - 09:06pm PT
Damn Klimmer, how do you know all this stuff? Bill Clinton, the President of the United States of America, the most powerful person (really) in the entire world, got shut out of information about aliens by some umber powerful cabal that is actually more powerful than the elected president, but you, a science teacher in California, KNOW he got shut out and, apparently, he doesn't. Wow, you must have some really good buddies.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 19, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Sorry to reply to my own post but, but it just occurred to me that maybe there is some sort of powerful mind beam being projected from the Massive Ark on the Moon that is being used to control certain persons minds and that those aliens operating this beam missed their target and accidentally struck an innocent person, driving him or her sort of insane. Fill in names at your own risk of alien mind beams targeting YOU!!!!

I hear you all laughing in the distance. Well, I say to skeptics, disprove this great theory. Ha, ya can't!!!!
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
May 19, 2016 - 09:30pm PT
I hear you all laughing in the distance. Well, I say to skeptics, disprove this great theory. Ha, ya can't!!!!

Oh yeah? Damn right I can disprove it. Here's photographic evidence.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 19, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
Pull your heads out of the sand people. Don't you know what President Bill Clinton tried to do relevant to UFOs and Area 51?


Bill Clinton talks about UFOs and Area 51 again

http://www.openminds.tv/bill-clinton-talks-ufos-area-51/26772


Analysis of Bill Clinton's Interview on UFOs with Jimmy Kimmel

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=THRIigM5iI8
[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 19, 2016 - 11:02pm PT
welcome to the terrarium

best take a look around outside this fragile glass bubble before someone gets bored and cleans it up

fantasies that earth-dwelling humans represent the epitome of intelligence and knowledge around here are just the latest foolishly conceited flat-earth theories

get over it, children


Port

Trad climber
London, UK
May 20, 2016 - 12:44am PT
This thread is popular and of interest because of entertainment value, Klimmer. Not because of the any validity of alien visits to the moon. It's about the extreme delusion and the comedic value it provides to people in an otherwise normal day.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
May 20, 2016 - 01:48am PT
I was firm in my belief and conviction that no aliens have ever contacted or visited earth, then Trump won the nom and that has me re-evaluating the whole alien proposition. Do nephilim have small hands?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 20, 2016 - 05:54am PT
Ghost, I'd forgotten about friggin' Tintin. Are you possibly suggesting that Captain Haddock was in command of the Massive Ark when it crashed? At least we now know the cause. This is all starting to make sense ..........



d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
May 20, 2016 - 08:36am PT
It's all very easy to explain.

When the deluge subsided, Noah searched the
vast ocean for a suitable spot to unload
his precious cargo of two of every critter
in existence.
Atlantis was gone and lemuria mu also when
Captain noah spied a peak jutting up out
of the murky depths. The captain docked his
luxury liner at a splendid harbor known as
port Ararat.
After all the critters were unloaded and paper
work filled out by the port authority who were
quite large with funny lookin hair but looked like
men for the most part, boosted old Noahs ship and
set sail.
As we all know, the earth was flat in those days(why the whole
world flooded so easily)and these big boys sailed that ship
right off the edge of the earth and crash landed on the moon.
Gravity on the moon wasn't discovered yet and those giants fell
back to earth. They fell so far and fast they got stuck in the
rocks of the earth.
This is how the nephilim became fallen angels and how
the arc got stuck on the moon.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 23, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
Klimmer, looks like maybe we didn't need the Nephilim to build Stonehenge et al. after all. Maybe Occam has won and it wasn't aliens from the moon or wherever.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/05/23/stonehenge-wasnt-so-hard-to-build-after-all-archaeologists-disco/
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 23, 2016 - 07:02pm PT
Bob Lazar told the truth. He continues to tell the truth. I believe him. Much has been validated.

It's such an incredibly fascinating story he has and the experience he lived.

I also think they brought him out to work Area 51, because they knew he wouldn't keep his mouth shut and he would tell the world. I think they wanted the story out and disclosed, and Bob was their man.

Bob Lazar of Area 51 - 25 Years Later
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iezJY74GsX8

[Click to View YouTube Video]



So raise your hand if you've driven out to Rachel, Nevada, stopped at the Little Ale-Inn, Area 51. Had a bite to eat. Did a little shopping. And then drove out to one of the gates of Area 51 to check out and see the security at the gate, and on the hillsides and along the ridge-tops.

Been there and done that. Lol
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 23, 2016 - 08:45pm PT
Oh my G-d, The Nazis have already been to the Moon!11
Maybe it's their Ark, or Nazi Space Ship

It's all here in this youtube,
just listen to it all the way through, and then tell me it's not True!

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Why would they not tell the truth??
They have it all covered up at Area 51
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
May 23, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
who were
quite large with funny lookin hair but looked like
men for the most part, boosted old Noahs ship and
set sail.

Kinda like these guys?

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1UujH1v6WU]

Grand Funk - I'm your captain
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 23, 2016 - 08:59pm PT
More Pay Dirt

There's F-ing Breathable air on Mars!!!!!!111166611 !11

The F-ing Gubmint has been hiding it from us


http://exopolitics.org/whistleblowers-reveal-breathable-air-on-mars-secret-corporate-bases/

The most significant similarity between Cramer’s and Goode’s testimonies concerns the Martian atmosphere. According to Cramer, when he landed on Mars, he exited and directly experienced the Martian atmosphere:

It was that particular time that we came out, it was, it felt like a hot day but there was a very cold wind that was blowing and you felt like you came out at 8000 or 9000 feet or something like that. The air was very thin, but totally breathable. I was really quite surprised to be honest, to have them just open up the door and say alright head for that other door and have us walk right outside but we did.

This is what Corey Goode says about his experience on Mars:

There is a thin atmosphere (like being at very high altitudes on Earth) but the atmospheric pressure is very low as is the temperature most of the time. There are times depending on Mars season and weather that make it possible for very short exposure time on the surface…. I would imagine that some have slightly acclimated to it. I would not want to spend any amount of time outside of the light duty suits we wore especially if you were doing anything physically exertive. There were some small wild life and vegetation that we observed in the general location of where the construction was being done.


I see vegetation and animals in those photos.... that's all the proof I need.
now we know why all those early Mars probes failed, Martians or Nazis assimilated them for nutrients and rare minerals
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
May 23, 2016 - 09:13pm PT
Amazingly, my daughter sent me, for my birthday, the first seven books of the Edgar Rice Burroughs' Martian series. Seriously, these are worth a read. The posts above are total vindication of the viability of life on Mars; the Barsoomian adventure continues!!

There is also an interesting (very OT, but of high interest) series of revelations as to the interior of the moon. Turns out it's hollow, full of oxygen, and supports life. Who knew? No on except Klimmer. No mention of an alien Ark though.
Phantom X

Trad climber
Honeycomb Hideout
May 23, 2016 - 09:46pm PT
They have fish and chips on the Red Planet?
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
May 24, 2016 - 06:07am PT
Heck yeah. Starbucks, too.

BAd
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2016 - 06:36am PT
There will always be those who poke fun and belittle and throw out ad hominem attacks. It's a given. That's all they do. They can't really get beyond that stage.

But I post for those who are brave, think, and willing to check out the facts as far as possible. There are real gems of high quality to find when you do. Leave the waste material behind and persevere ...



George Knapp Presents Area 51 Whistle blower - 25 years later Mutual UFO Network (MUFON)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NdygjV8lT1Y

[Click to View YouTube Video]

http://www.openminds.tv/george-knapp-area-51s-whistleblower/33029


Bob Lazar of Area 51 - 25 Years Later
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iezJY74GsX8

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Bob Lazar's pretty cool research and education science supply company ...

United Nuclear

https://www.unitednuclear.com
monolith

climber
state of being
May 24, 2016 - 06:49am PT
There will always be those who post unsubstantiated fantasies and conspiracies. It's a given. That's all they do. They can't really get beyond that stage.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
May 24, 2016 - 06:54am PT
Benghazi!
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
May 24, 2016 - 08:05am PT
Klimmer!

I've got a whole bunch of great Nazi conspiracy stuff for you!

10 Interestingly Outlandish Conspiracy Theories About The Nazis

http://listverse.com/2016/05/24/10-interestingly-outlandish-conspiracy-theories-about-the-nazis/

1936 Black Forest Incident
The Nazi Bell
Ahnenerbe And The Hunt For Ancient Artifacts And Relics
Seeking Knowledge In Ancient Sanskrit Texts
The Haunebu Disc
Vril And The Vril Society
Secret Arctic Expeditions
Claims Of Help From People From Other Worlds
Hitler Was Possessed By The Devil?
Hitler Really Escaped to South America.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
May 25, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
since some of you are so smart, knowledgeable and wise; we should be very careful to never investigate anything that might unsettle your confirmed views of reality...

“I was told that there are numerous E. T. ‘gods’ fighting amongst themselves and they are interjecting themselves into human affairs. I am being told that a lot of this is being kept secret because we are trying not to initiate a conflict with ‘an adversary that we poorly understand.’”
 Tom DeLonge, co-author, Sekret Machines: Chasing Shadows © March 2016, collaborating with 10 U. S. military and intelligence advisers on E. T. facts


“These intel operatives said that Hitler and the S. S. made agreements with Reptilian extraterrestrials to give the S.S. secret information of extraterrestrial vehicles, their propulsion, their controls, their operation and everything needed to build those UFOs and put them into production.” - William M. Tompkins, retired aerospace engineer and author, Selected by Extraterrestrials: My life in the top secret world of UFOs, think-tanks and Nordic secretaries” © Dec. 2015 edited by Robert M. Wood, Ph.D.

Die Glocke RFZ (RundFlugZeug, or Round Aircraft) series from 1934-41. As war had started in 1939 the RFZ-5 became the Haunebu I (photographed above) and by 1941 the RFZ-7 had become the Vril 1. Source: medem.kiev.ua.


Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2016 - 09:57am PT
Mysteries
10 Secret Space Mission Conspiracies

Marcus Lowth

June 6, 2016

http://listverse.com/2016/06/06/10-out-of-this-world-alleged-secret-space-mission-conspiracies/



Hey Apollo 20 made #1 !!!! Lol




Nice.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Jun 6, 2016 - 10:06am PT
^^^^How much time do you spend trolling the internet for the different web pages you keep posting?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2016 - 10:11am PT
Gee its easy. Just scan yahoo news. Lol
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Jun 10, 2016 - 09:20pm PT

January 3, 2009
ROTTEN TO THE CORE

The Core Story at its most basic level is about the “reality” of alien contact. The reality behind the Core Story however, is very different.

The Core Story was created by a small group of people, intent on perpetuating a belief in the alien contact myth in order to achieve their own, distinctly human, objectives.

This small group have used their previous employment by various government and military agencies to cement and enhance their standing within the so-called believer crowd. This larger group have done an excellent job in further spreading the myth, passing along stories and tales that they believe have come from those “in the know”.

Once the idea of the Core Story was planted, it was a fairly simple task for those within the small group to identify and target those people within the believer crowd whose pockets were deeper than most. Selling the promise of exotic alien technology or providing “proof” for those desperate for confirmation of the astounding is much more lucrative than you might think. Much, much more.

http://www.realityuncovered.net/blog/2009/01/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jun 11, 2016 - 02:59am PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jun 23, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
New stuff!!!! Klimmer was, maybe, right. It's from the Ruskies:

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Jun 23, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
WBraun

climber
Jun 23, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
Phillip Johnson's ugly face on Trumps chin .......
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Jul 11, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
Well, at least this thread is preserved for posterity. Maybe he was taken by the Rapture?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Jul 11, 2016 - 07:44pm PT
The rapture or the vice squad...adios...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jul 12, 2016 - 10:31pm PT
Well, at least this thread hasn't been nuked......yet. Really, it's a classic that could never be duplicated in our wildest imaginings. Klimmer was at his best serial posting night and day and from school, lots of really funny diversions, and a life lesson for us all. What that lesson is is still unclear, but...... thanks Klimmer, it's been great. I just wish I had a suitable cartoonograph. Oh, wait....

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jul 13, 2016 - 08:32am PT
Chilling

Whoa! DMT, I didn't believe until you posted that PROOF! So exciting!!!

I've done some careful calculations, and the Nephi that made that track was at least 57 feet tall and weighed at least 18 tons! That's why he/she was able to press his/her foot into solid rock!

And of course the track doesn't show an arch. When you weigh at least 18 tons, you're gonna have fallen arches for sure!!!!!!!

So that track reveals EXACTLY what we would expect it to show!!!

Now, I know that that Nephi is much bigger than the book of Enoch says they were. But that doesn't trouble me at all. Maybe pseudo-Enoch was talking about the smaller ones. Who knows? And it doesn't matter because you've shown the PROOF!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More exclamation marks because I'm just SO excited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TFPU!!!!!!!!!!!!
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Jul 13, 2016 - 08:41am PT
 What the lesson is is still unclear

is is? secret proclamation of Jihad? Good riddance to the prophet Rimmer
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Oct 1, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
I can't believe this has not been posted yet.

http://exopolitics.org/whistleblowers-claims-he-served-17-years-at-secret-mars-military-base/

"A new whistleblower has come forward to claim that he spent 17 years on Mars serving at a secret military base whose main mission was to protect five civilian space colonies. In exclusive testimony released today on ExoNews TV, the whistleblower, who uses the pseudonym, Captain Kaye, said that the Mars Defense Force recruits personnel from different military services. He claims that he was recruited from a covert branch of the U.S. Marine Corps called “Special Section.”

Read the article for more.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Oct 1, 2016 - 05:10pm PT
Interesting Mike, especially the part about breathable air and reptilian and insectoidal indigenous species on Mars. Did you notice the secret code stuff going on in the article? Captain Kaye, K in 'Men in Black' protecting Earth from aliens. Just coincidence? I think not.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 1, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
aptain Kaye, K in 'Men in Black'

No. Surely the "Kaye" is just a thinly-disguised cover for...

...Klimmer!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 1, 2016 - 05:48pm PT
Trump is absolutely sure he read about it and is very, very concerned about this important issue and he's against closing this secret prison.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Oct 1, 2016 - 08:22pm PT
Ghost!!!! Damn, I didn't see it. You're right. My screen is covered in spittle. Thanks.
i-b-goB

Social climber
Wise Acres
Oct 1, 2016 - 09:07pm PT

rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 19, 2016 - 01:34pm PT
here's one that might set you naysayers back a bit....

[Click to View YouTube Video]
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Oct 25, 2016 - 05:41pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
dirtbag

climber
Oct 26, 2016 - 06:24am PT
Does klimmer have an heir?
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Oct 26, 2016 - 07:03am PT

Old news, I guess.

Rapture?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 24, 2016 - 05:46pm PT
Klimmer was banned? For what, spreading the truth? The Illuminati got to ChrisMac?
Surely the End Days are nigh.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Dec 28, 2016 - 03:29pm PT

More bigly stuff discovered… Another damned spoon!

http://www.iflscience.com/space/somebody-has-found-another-giant-spoon-on-mars/
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Feb 3, 2017 - 12:28pm PT
For why? For the entertainment - that's why enough

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1156814&tn=2940
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 3, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
Now that he is gone I miss him more than ever.

This is one of my all time favorite threads...

Klimmer buddy this one is for you:


May the Angels who crashed on the moon speed you away to everlasting bliss...

Vaya con dios sweet prince.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 6, 2017 - 01:28pm PT

Holy shite the Nephilim were on Mars too! They left a giant spoon behind!

Klimmer was right!!! Now he's gone...this is such a tragedy that he was never vindicated on the taco.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 6, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
brother, you are so right! As Klimmer said so often and so correctly: Frui vita. Tool est non maximus.

Words we can all live by. I wonder, though, if in fact the spoon is not very, very small? We have no scale to measure against.
BigB

Trad climber
Red Rock
Feb 6, 2017 - 03:42pm PT
holy shite, is it just me or is the second spoon only attached(diving board) at one end?


also, brings to mind the spoon/fork joke :D
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 6, 2017 - 06:22pm PT
bbb, do really think your spinly truths will vindicate or terminate The Klimmer??

PLEase..

BB
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 6, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
No, BigB, that is not an illusion. In alternative fact, after you go beyond the gravity belt of the earth, things can reverse and such phenomena as the 'levitated spoon' are quite common. This has to do with the reverse rotation of the two Martian moons, as well as some sort of 'flux' field generated by the passage of high speed Nephilim generating anti-gravitational waves in the ether. It's complex.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2017 - 06:54pm PT
That's not a 'giant' spoon. To a Nephilim, who I can assure you are giants, that's nothing more than a coke spoon.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 6, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
so, healyje, to be perfectly clear, the Nephilim are on coke? Like how much does one of their giant spoons hold, 10 kg, more? Are our supplies threatened? Was this Klimmer's true concern?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 6, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
What, you thought NASA was drilling for trace minerals? They're looking for the motherlode of stashes...

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 7, 2017 - 05:21am PT
Man, getting back through US Customs after a Martian visit is going to be Hell.

brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 9, 2017 - 01:29pm PT
No, BigB, that is not an illusion. In alternative fact, after you go beyond the gravity belt of the earth, things can reverse and such phenomena as the 'levitated spoon' are quite common. This has to do with the reverse rotation of the two Martian moons, as well as some sort of 'flux' field generated by the passage of high speed Nephilim generating anti-gravitational waves in the ether. It's complex.

I wholeheartedly agree with the above, however it really is not so complex....

The laws of physics do not apply to nephilim. Even the cookware they use defy all common sense.

Stoopid americans are too busy with their proxy wars to realize they can mind travel with the nephilim and permeate the ether as they see fit.

You crankloons don't understand... Klimmer did... and now he's gone...

Like so many young men of his generation, he died here on the taco before his time. In your wisdom, Lord, you took him, as you took so many bright flowering young men at Khe Sanh, ....at Langdok, ....and at Hill 364.

Klimmer... we commit your final mortal remains of threads to the bosom of the moon and other terrestrial planets, which you loved so well.

Good night, sweet prince...
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Feb 9, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
Did you guys miss it?

Klimmer is now the Attorney General of the USA.
brotherbbock

climber
Alta Loma, CA
Feb 13, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
^^^That would actually be a huge improvement.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jul 1, 2017 - 02:16pm PT
Moose, that's just scratching the surface of this thing. Look at the images below; one is craters on Mars and Earth, obviously made by intelligent species, the other is self explanatory. Need I say more? It's pretty scary.

Yeah, it's too hot for garden work, I'm in the mountains tomorrow, so why not waste some time alerting the nation?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jul 1, 2017 - 05:52pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jul 1, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
It don't stop there Moose....
58 - on the moon AND Mars. Who woulda thunk?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Oct 28, 2017 - 08:17pm PT
Couple of glasses of wine; Klimmer, I miss you! I read this entire thread, start to finish, and Klimmer, you were beautiful, you were wonderful, and you were consistent, and you were an idiot. They don't make them like you anymore and never will in the future that is to come.

I just thank the Illuminati that this thread still exists and that future humanoids may profit from your wisdom. Literature like this must be preserved for future generations to savor, discuss, and judge.

Seriously, stuff like this is golden and precious and will never be duplicated by a thousand monkeys typing on a thousand typewriters for a thousand years. God bless you Klimmer, wherever you are and whatever you're doing, even if it is dating your daughter.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 5, 2017 - 08:47pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 5, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
You Americans just don't get it. Well, okay, Klimmer and Werner get it, and they can pass for American, but we all know they came to America from a lot further away than Mexico or Canada.

Anyway, on the other side of the walls -- the ones that will soon be built on your northern and southern borders -- the truth is out there. Particularly in places where the high mountain topography keeps all but the true believers away...

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 6, 2017 - 05:50am PT
Klimmer, I miss you!

x2
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Nov 26, 2017 - 11:36am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 27, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
any earthbound humans denying the presence of relatively unbounded intelligent beings are simply uninformed...i.e. homo hubris
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 27, 2017 - 07:39pm PT
The Yanks started it in WW2.
Notice that the lower bombers haven't started their attack. Probably aren't high enough yet.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:31am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
Will it never stop??????? The threat of Dihydrogen Monoxide, the silent killer chemical implicated in the Chemtrails conspiracy.

What are the dangers of Dihydrogen Monoxide?
Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death.
Contamination is reaching epidemic proportions!

Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice. In the midwest alone DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage.
Dihydrogen monoxide:

is also known as hydric acid, and is the major component of acid rain.
contributes to the Greenhouse Effect.
may cause severe burns.
contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape.
accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals.
may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes.
has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients.

http://www.dhmo.org/truth/Dihydrogen-Monoxide.html
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
What we need is moar common sense laws governing dihydrogen monoxide. That'll save the chirren.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 24, 2017 - 10:48pm PT

Saturday, December 16, 2017, was an historic day in the annals of the U. S. government's 70 years of covering up the alien presence behind UFOs, also known as Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAPs), with strict policies of denials and lies ordered in 1947 by President Harry S. Truman in the interest of national security.

This new crack in official U. S. government policies of lies and denials began on Saturday with The New York Times headline article: “Glowing Auras and 'Black Money': The Pentagon's Mysterious U. F. O. Program” that contained two infrared videos of UFOs from the Defense Department's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP).

The U. S. Department of Defense provided infrared videos from the gun camera of one of two U. S. Navy F/A-18F fighter jets focused on an unidentified aerial object, or UFO in 2004 near San Diego, California.

The transcript of the Navy fighter pilots comments is in this report. The infrared video was released by the Defense Department's Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program to study the extraordinary technologies moving in Earth's skies seen by hundreds of military pilots. To skilled, professional military pilots, the UFO craft accelerate like nothing ever seen before and travel at astoundingly fast speeds — stop mid-air — do 90-degree-angled turns — brighten and dim — seem to expand in size and then disappear.

“The object's orientation and performance seem to defy
current principals of physics such as atmospheric resistance and normal
aerodynamic forces. During the orientation change, the UFO also
slows to a near stop, but does not change altitude.”
 DoD Analysis of UFO in U. S. Navy F/A-18F fighter jet's gun camera infrared video

-Quoted in December 16, 2017, New York Times as saying Americans are being held back from serious research into U.F.O.s by a juvenile taboo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Mar 8, 2018 - 05:07pm PT
So an alien spaceship landed in Antarctica, and klimmer didn't tell us. Is he part of the cover-up?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3124986/Antarctic-UFO-spotted-ET-hunter-claims-spotted-alien-spaceship-snow-s-probably-just-crevasse.html
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 16, 2018 - 07:23pm PT
I miss Klimmer. Is he still teaching 'science'?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 17, 2018 - 01:01am PT
...of relativistically unbounded intelligent beings...

Fixed that for you...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 1, 2018 - 05:19pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCZTpPYCsw4
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Apr 2, 2018 - 01:45am PT
Sigh...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 2, 2018 - 08:24pm PT
sorry, don't know anything about that
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 2, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/11/10/the-connection-between-aurora-and-black-triangles/

We aren’t going to state that UFO’s are “real.” Believers and deniers have had decades to decide. We will simply tell you exactly how they work. You can decide for yourself if they exist or not. We simply tell you exactly how they do what they do “if they existed” which is none of our business, if you get my meaning.
zBrown

Ice climber
Apr 2, 2018 - 08:42pm PT
Klimmer's photos seem to have disappeared?

WTF?

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 2, 2018 - 08:44pm PT
Even more to the point, is the Moon actually real? As this astute observer observes:
A couple of weeks ago i mentioned on my facebook wall that i and my girlfriend had seen the moon low to ground above the town hall near our home and it was four times its normal size, normally seen in the sky. And also on a different day when we were getting out of our car outside my daughters house we looked up above my daughters house the moon could be seen clearly and the clouds were passing behind the moon, when we came out back at the car the clouds were in front of the moon and when we got out of the car back home 5 minutes later the clouds were again moving behind the moon, my girlfriend did not under stand the significance of that.

Pretty scary.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 2, 2018 - 09:55pm PT
We share 99% DNA mapping with Chimpanzees.

The six inch tall Atacama humanoid skeleton shares only 91% DNA mapping with modern humans and has numerous skeletal differences with us.

Probably just left there to test our faith ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atacama_skeleton

Whole DNA (genome) analysis of the remains determined that it was a female human fetus that had 64 unusual mutations in 7 genes linked to the skeletal system. ... The researchers identified 64 unusual mutations in 7 genes linked to the skeletal system, and they noted that finding so many mutations that specifically affect skeletal development has never been reported before
Pennsylenvy

Gym climber
A dingy corner in your refrigerator
Apr 2, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Apr 3, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 3, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
Dr Steven Greer - NEW Documentary UNACKNOWLEDGED (A MUST SEE)

Soundtrack provided by the Lama Dama Ding Dong Band.
They also do a Star Wars cantina set when the Force is with them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tyg68GqZhM
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 4, 2018 - 08:35am PT
The Atacama Desert skeleton has 100% human DNA
more fake news from the Klimmers of the world
They never dive deeper than the toilet bowl's of knowledge
Maybe checking out the facts before posting would be helpful

The Human Fetus had DNA damage and was born Dead, possibly from the high nitrates from the Desert

There is ZERO evidence of any extraterrestrial life forms of ever visiting earth.
If there was any, we scientists would be investigated it, not locking it up and creating a BS cult of UFOology.

These guys are bed fellows with Alex Jones, the biggest liar on the air, I hope he gets sued to high heaven for ruining peoples lives



InfoWars Article on Parkland Put Man 'in Genuine Peril'

24-year-old Massachusetts man suing Alex Jones, website for $1M
http://www.newser.com/story/257382/man-sues-alex-jones-over-claim-he-was-parkland-shooter.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 4, 2018 - 08:47am PT
Wino, a client of yers? Or an English major? 😉
dirtbag

climber
Apr 4, 2018 - 09:08am PT
The six inch tall Atacama humanoid skeleton shares only 91% DNA mapping with modern humans and has numerous skeletal differences with us.

Did you read the portion of the wiki article you posted discussing the fetus’ genetics?

Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Apr 4, 2018 - 10:44am PT
While we're debunking BS

Have you seen the new JFK Assassination Documentary !!!!

They put it all together and there was only ONE shooter: Oswald.

It's the end of all the other BS other shooters/grassy knoll crap

They go through detail of every shot fired, which was only 3
all the tapes hear only 3 shots
Oswald had three shell casings, and all three bullets can be tracked and accounted for.
--

The Lost Bullet

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/u/kckMOO8vzgE0eXO-_g97LRHp4nb6eg4z0H7ZCBol_x4buKT_hY3t3lDo06-hZA/

Was Oswald tied to the mafia/CIA, probably.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 4, 2018 - 11:09am PT
Wino, a client of yers? Or an English major?
Nah, they probably drink Bud Lite and certainly not an English major.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Apr 4, 2018 - 10:27pm PT
Yes, so sometimes it's a privilege not to know.

Having mainly learned not knowing very much of what there is to know.

Amazingly wonderful how some people have the world all figured out.

What an interesting concept: thinking that you know.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 5, 2018 - 07:09am PT
My daughter is an historical preservationist; she recently did a project at Nellis AFB, home to area 51. I can't reveal what she found.......... but be afraid, be very afraid.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 12, 2018 - 03:16pm PT
Time to get extra terrestrial ... Why isn't this story bigger?


List of investigations of UFOs by governments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_investigations_of_UFOs_by_governments

UK:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/

Canada:
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/unusual/ufo/Pages/default.aspx

USA: Project Bluebook
https://www.archives.gov/research/military/air-force/ufos.html



Tucker Carlson Fox News: Inside the Navy's 2015 encounter with a UFO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwmWnY4P1w
[Click to View YouTube Video]

Tucker Carlson Fox News: Navy pilot recalls 'out of this world' encounter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDj9ZZQY2kA
[Click to View YouTube Video]


There are now many disclosed real evidences that can't be ignored any longer that can be put to the test of the scientific method. The existence of UFOs is now testable and this happened within our lifetimes. These news casts and many more like these, are not scenes clipped from a fictional Hollywood UFO movie. Disclosure is happening now in our lifetime -- drip by drip.

The phenomenon is real. UFOs are real. The question isn't are they real? We know the answer now. The question is what are they? Who are they? And what is their purpose? I think I know.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Sep 12, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
I, for one, am glad Klimmer is back. Unless Klimmer 2.0 is a false flag smoke screen, put in place by our reptilian over lords to confuse us...
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 14, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
What's up with this??? Weird. Watch the videos ...




Solar observatory LOCKDOWN sparks claims alien life has been spotted as FBI investigate
A SOLAR observatory was evacuated and placed on lockdown by the FBI, sparking claims they may have stumbled across alien life.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/729132/Alien-news-space-observatory-lockdown-FBI-investigate-New-Mexico-video


Solar Observatory FINALLY releases statement on sudden closure as FBI block entrance
A SOLAR observatory in New Mexico that closed due to an undisclosed “security issue” has finally issued a statement.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/729614/national-solar-observatory-sunspot-new-mexico-closed-fbi-statement-alien-news-space
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Sep 14, 2018 - 04:25pm PT
My favorite thread, since obviously my product(s) aid in the postings.

True story; I attended Michigan State University BITD. A friend and I were out and about at 10:00 pm; we were waiting for a bus in the dark when overhead a round luminous object appeared. It circled around and we watched it trying to figure out what it was. We were both science nerds but couldn't come up with an explanation. Finally I suggested it was actually a UFO. We decided that was the only answer for what we saw. Bravely we both decided to stay and greet our alien visitors; this was a real decision and brave in my opinion, as we thought this was the real thing. We waited for it to land and then finally .......... realized it was a carbon arc spotlight shining on the bottom of clouds.

Klimmer, if that's you please post endless youtube videos......... and tell us how that date with your daughter went.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 14, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
O.M.Y*...

he's back.






































































*Yeshua
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 14, 2018 - 04:29pm PT
I am not biting
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 14, 2018 - 05:45pm PT
Welcome Klimmer2.0! The observatory sits near White Sands testing range... my guess is they don't want anyone to see the Nihelim ship orbiting the sun before they try and blast it.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 14, 2018 - 07:37pm PT
New Mexico closing and Klimner returning

Mere coincidence?



When, last week, the federal government suddenly and inexplicably closed the Sunspot Solar Observatory in southern New Mexico, conspiracy theorists went wild. T
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Sep 14, 2018 - 07:50pm PT
Discovered in the 1930s, made famous By The Book Chariots of Fire[Click to View YouTube Video] Equal time which one works for inquiring minds? [Click to View YouTube Video]
What I find disturbing is the way the obvious, becomes discredited as to far-fetched, when the earliest evidence, Myan carvings & the like are clear & as yet un-asailed[Click to View YouTube Video]

Skip to 5:20 on this next one, I found it tediously long[Click to View YouTube Video]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 14, 2018 - 11:09pm PT
It is safe to say that we are all doomed to have our world view upset at some point. And there is an understandable inclination to reject and ridicule information that threatens one's world view.

Scientists are not doing their job on this subject of UFO sightings and alien abductions. Insisting on not knowing and not learning is very inappropriate for scientists. No excuses or rationalizations are appropriate for intentional ignorance.

This subject is not going away just because some ignorant people ridicule the beliefs and experiences of others. Such ignorance is extremely dangerous for all of us.

This is an important subject whether or not we are being visited by aliens. There are major implications for us either way.

If people are deluded about this subject of UFOs and aliens, then it is a delusion that affects people all over the planet in large numbers, even those with no access to modern communication tools and with no other access to information about the subject. At the very least neurophysiologists should be absolutely fascinated by the commonality of these unusual perceptual phenomena.

If you don't take the time to do your homework, then you are acting unwise by commenting and are just showcasing your ignorance.

Here is a lecture by one professor who has made an extensive study of this subject over a period of decades:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmq-3Crw4cA

jstan

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 12:11am PT
Scientists are not doing their job on this subject of UFO sightings and alien abductions. Insisting on not knowing and not learning is very inappropriate for scientists.

I am prompted to ask a question. How would one go about scientifically testing the hypothesis that aliens are visiting this planet? Don't miss the fact eye witness testimony is unreliable. Please note Neil Tyson's suggestion those abducted need to bring back an alien ash tray if they can.

Try this as an example.

If aliens were here they would possibly have carried with them life forms that were not close copies of our earth based DNA. There has, as yet, been no such discovery. Search as we might, so far. As DNA technology advances and tests increase in number, our confidence that no such exists gains statistical support. Imagine, if you will, the scientific response to such a discovery. That scientific search is going on, as we type.

Now you might ask that fighter jets be scrambled any time someone reports unexplained atmospheric light. There are numerous physical mechanisms that produce such phenomena. The night I was bivying on the Tofana I saw balls of fire and heard buzzing most of the night. Physical motion of the air readily causes it to become ionized. So what new data would a pilot produce? Any space ship a jet could catch is likely unable even to reach the earth.

Tom: Do you have a list of possible experiments?
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 01:36am PT
jstan, i have a lot of respect for your knowledge and intelligence, but you clearly haven't done your homework on this subject

i occasionally try to direct people on this forum to various information sources, but the feedback here tends to be from people who don't bother spending the time looking into it

this is no longer a naive immature area of study and insider stories have been broadly released by many people now retired from secret military/industrial programs

granted the deluge of available material seems overwhelming, but the attempted cover ups and disinformation seem to be running out of steam as many people become better educated

there are published authoritative professionals who have devoted much of their lives to working with this material and you can read their reports and listen to their lectures and interviews

however the subject is still tabu for professionals hoping to maintain their careers and funding,so you have to be willing to think a little bit outside the controlled information sources

no one can claim any longer that they haven't been informed, just that they haven't listened

TLP

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 02:57am PT
Tom, you didn't read jstan's words carefully enough; or chose simply to ignore his question. To repeat, how would you test the hypothesis scientifically? Simply stating that there are a lot of eyewitnesses does not answer this question. The fact that there are so many statements without non-graphic corroborative data makes them extremely suspect. To have so many alien beings and crafts whizzing around at all times without other types of evidence showing up frequently, in quantity, is completely implausible.

To date, there seems to be no actual data suggesting elements or alloys or compounds unknown to earthbound science/engineering; no hard data of any organisms that do not fit into the earth biota phylogenies. When that kind of evidence is presented and examined independently and published in peer-reviewed sources, we'll all be more interested. Billions of people are convinced of the absolute reality of things that billions of other people are equally sure are complete fabrications. That's why science depends on other types of concrete evidence.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2018 - 07:39am PT
I think I know.

K2.0 Please expound.

Scientists are not doing their job

Generalization. So like, who's in charge? (Candians may actually have someone) [FACT: Nobody's in charge on this planet. That job is up for grabs.]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:47am PT
TLP, I don't know anything about you, but I stated that this is an important subject whether or not space aliens are involved!

I am not at all ignoring jstan's questions and I am not making any claims about the subject one way or the other! I am begging people to do their homework and comment on the basis of real evidence rather than cheep tabloid opinions.

The problem isn't how to come up with scientific proof. That is available in abundance and I occasionally try to refer people to interesting researchers such as the one referenced above who has spent decades examining a few aspects of the problem. The scientific problem is academics with vested interests unwilling to to look at research results in spite of concerted official attempts to obfuscate and cover up the subject.

It is not my job to convince you any more than it is my job to convince you about quantum physics. The research findings are available for those who chose to look. If you choose to believe that the double slit experiment couldn't be real because it violates your understanding of Newtonian physics, then I don't know how to help you.

The fact that the subject is heavily suppressed in spite of abundant evidence should be an invitation of interest for anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand.

There are physical material samples that have been carefully examined in accredited material sciences laboratories who conclude we have no idea how to manufacture such materials.

https://www.earthfiles.com/2018/08/09/part-7-mysterious-metal-from-bottom-of-wedge-shaped-ufo-update-1996-2018-research/


Similarly with biological materials. There is so much evidence available now that the only excuse for not knowing is intentionally choosing not to look. It is not particularly challenging to find empirical scientific evidence. It is challenging to assimilate the evidence within our world view.

On a personal note, I grew up as a skeptic in a household where Kenneth Arnold and Chet Moulton and my dad were friends and colleagues.

Kenneth A. Arnold (March 29, 1915 - January 16, 1984) was an American aviator and businessman.He is best known for making what is generally considered the first widely reported unidentified flying object sighting in the United States, after claiming to have seen nine unusual objects flying in tandem near Mount Rainier, Washington on June 24, 1947.


Aviation veteran Chet Moulton dies at 86 Associated Press Jun 29, 1994
BOISE Chet Moulton, Idaho's director of aviation for more than a quarter century, died Sunday in Boise of prostate cancer. He was 86.Moulton, a Kansas native, served from the late 1940s into the 1970s as state aeronautics director. During his tenure, more than 100 new airfields and airstrips were developed in the state. He was named Idaho's outstanding state employee in 1967 and in 1970, Flying Magazine named him ''General Aviation Man of the Year,'' citing his leadership with limited resources to create a number of firsts in the United States.

Linda Moulton has devoted her life to this subject and is a lifetime friend since we were children, but I only know a fraction of what she has diligently examined.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:15am PT
Perhaps you can provide a better explanation as to how these craft operate:


The US military has reportedly confirmed an encounter between its naval aircraft and a UFO, which occurred nearly 14 years ago.

A 13-page report commissioned by the Pentagon reveals the details of a cat-and-mouse game between a UFO and a US strike carrier group in the Pacific, according to media reports.

The paper, which was obtained by KLAS-TV, describes an incident that occurred in November 2004 when aircraft carrier USS Nimitz and its escort vessels encountered an unidentified flying craft off the coast of California.

Several months ago video footage allegedly recorded by one of the fighter jets presented during the Nimitz incident was uploaded on YouTube, showing what appears to be a UFO being chased by the aircraft.

The unidentified craft, designated in the report as “Tic Tac,” was described as a 46-foot-long “solid white” object, “smooth with no edges.”

The report allegedly claimed that the unidentified craft resembled no known plane in the world and was capable of “advanced aerodynamic performance,” with “advanced propulsion” and the “ability to cloak or become invisible,” not to mention the ability to render “US radar based engagement capabilities ineffective.”

The UFO reportedly managed to evade the fighter jets, which attempted to intercept it, and was able to “operate unchallenged in close vicinity” to the carrier group.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:33am PT
If a ship is going to cross interstellar space, areodynamics are likely irrelevant. They would be operating something we do not understand at all.


Just as a side note - according to this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_year

Our solar system, along with our planet, is traveling at a speed of 514,000 MPH.

I did the math and figured out that in the last 45 years or so we have traveled less than 20% of one light year.

I would nvever be so bold as to say humans will never achieve interstellar travel, that would be very unscientific. This just illustrates the point that we have a lot to learn.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:34am PT
In order for a lie to persist, it must contain elements of the truth.

In Judo if a large man attacks you, the technique isn't to try and stop the attack, but to redirect the attack to his disadvantage.

When the public begins to see through the official lies into a domain of relative truthfulness, the technique isn't to try and bring them back to the pack of lies, but to redirect their attention into another domain of stories similar to the truth, but that are eventually discovered to be false.

Our biggest challenge is gleaning truth from massive official efforts to obfuscate and cover up the truth.

The first difficult step is realizing that these controllers have big things to hide and commit great resources to keeping the public in the dark as controllable sheeple.

Once you take that first difficult step, then it is up to you figuring out what is true for yourself. Our ability to perceive patterns in confusion is the critical required skill.

I don't think this guy sees the whole picture, but I do think what he presents is very important. it's a waste of time if you don't view his entire presentation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmq-3Crw4cA
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:41am PT
I love this stuff.... far better than politard threads!
TLP

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:51am PT
Human beings have been subject to mass delusions of various kinds for the entire history of the species, including the present time (perhaps especially so, given our communication means). So that possibility isn't of much scientific interest. I totally agree it is essential to be open minded, and I personally would love to examine documentation that fits what I said:
When that kind of evidence is presented and examined independently and published in peer-reviewed sources, we'll all be more interested.
But your link does not meet that standard. If you have another one to a standard engineering or metallurgical journal or equivalent, I'd love to check it out, really. Same for anything biological.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:08am PT
About the time Project Blue Book was winding down I met a guy whose uncle was a bird colonel on the project. The only thing he told him was

“99.9% of sightings are nonsense and you wouldn’t believe me if I told you about the others.”
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:23am PT
Most people with real knowledge inside the projects have only a very narrow view of what is going on ... called Compartmented Secret Information on a Need to Know Basis. However some of the top dogs have started talking in their old age approaching death.

You are not going to find verification for such questions within a standard engineering or metallurgical journal or other scientific journals as they are heavily censored by the same controllers who don't want you to know about this stuff. I realize it is very difficult to grasp that tight control of knowledge and understanding can be so pervasive in our society, but that is the real truth.

One of the senior scientific managers I work with at NASA has a small sign on his office door: "You want the proof? You can't handle the proof!"

The major challenge of our era is that their control of the dialog is failing rapidly and the controllers are not about to go away quietly. This is leading to chaos and anarchy, particularly in D.C. Their control of the trillion dollar defense budget depends upon war and having big enemies. Accordingly the Doomsday Clock of the Bulletin of Nuclear Scientists is right now closer to nuclear war than we have ever been. Russia and China are right now participating in huge war games in response to US threats with fingers on the triggers.

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:28am PT
As we grow older most of us realize we know less than a tiny fraction of the real truth. Every day we learn more but realize we're still staring at shadows on the same cave wall.

I still love that opening scene from Prometheus... the rest of the film was trash.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:31am PT
KLERK PENINSULA, Russia — Russian naval forces have conducted a submarine search using an anti-submarine ship and a helicopter in the Sea of Okhotsk as part of Russia’s largest-ever military exercises.

About 3,200 troops from China have joined about 300,000 Russian troops for a week of war games in Siberia and the Far East, and over the Arctic and Pacific oceans. The maneuvers continue through Monday.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/russias-biggest-war-games-include-submarine-hunt-in-pacific/2018/09/15/739da462-b8ef-11e8-ae4f-2c1439c96d79_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cdbfdcdfde29

Hi, Tom.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:37am PT
MOSCOW (Sputnik) - Vostok-2018 large-scale international drills will be held at five military training grounds and in the waters of the Sea of Japan, the Bering Sea and the Sea of Okhotsk and will become the largest event in the recent history of the country's armed forces maneuvers.

"The Vostok-2018 military maneuvers have begun in Russia's Far East," the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement on Tuesday.

The military maneuvers have received an international status since Chinese and Mongolian troops will also take part in one of the drill's stages. In particular, the Chinese Air Force will send 26 helicopters and 6 jets to Russia for taking part in Vostok-2018 military drills, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. According to the ministry, the Chinese Air Force group will also include six Mi-171 helicopters, which have been bought in Russia, as well as nine Z-9 and nine Z-19 choppers.

"Over 6,000 troops from three military formations and three separate units of the Airborne will participate in the Vostok-2018 drills," the ministry said in a statement. The ministry added that over 900 pieces of armoured and wheeled vehicles of the Airborne would be used for the exercises.

Празднование Дня Военно-морского флота России в Балтийске
© RIA Novosti . Igor Zarembo
Russia Drills Area in Mediterranean Dangerous for Navigation, Air Traffic - Navy
Overall, nearly 300,000 servicemen, 36,000 tanks, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles, more than a thousand aircraft will be involved in the drills set to become Russia's largest military exercises since the Zapad drills in 1981.

"These are the largest drills of the Armed Forces, which acquired the status of international drills, since the Zapad 1981 exercises, it has an unprecedented scale, both in terms of spatial scope and number of involved military command, troops and forces," Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said earlier in August.

The maneuvers will aim to check the combat skills of the Russian land, air and naval forces and will take place on September 11-17. The Russian international exercise will also coincide with NATO's Rapid Trident 2018 military drills, which is being held in Ukraine on September 3-15.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:49am PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]Привет том.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:52am PT
The gas bill for that must be high.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:59am PT
On March 1, President Vladimir Putin gave his annual state-of-the-nation address to Russia’s Federal Assembly and unveiled the country’s six new state of the art strategic weapon systems.

According to Putin, the advanced arms are based on unique technological achievements. One of them is a “small-scale heavy-duty nuclear energy unit”, which enables the development “a strategic nuclear weapons system with a nuclear-powered missile.”

The X-101 “is a low-flying stealth missile carrying a nuclear warhead. It has almost an unlimited range, unpredictable trajectory and ability to bypass interception boundaries. It is invincible against all existing and prospective missile defense and counter-air defense systems.” The missile can maneuvers for as long as necessary.” It was successfully launched at the Central training ground in late 2017.

The high-precision hypersonic aircraft missile system Kinzhal. The missile flies at a hypersonic speed, 10 times faster than the speed of sound; it can also maneuver during all phases of its flight trajectory, which also allows it to overcome anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense systems, delivering nuclear and conventional warheads within a range of over 2,000 kilometers. On December 1, 2017 these systems began their trial service from the airfields of Russia’s Southern Military District.

An intercontinental nuclear unmanned submersible vehicle, which can move at great depths intercontinentally, at a speed multiple times higher than the speed of submarines, cutting-edge torpedoes and all kinds of surface vessels, including some of the fastest. They can carry either conventional or nuclear warheads. An innovative nuclear power unit for this unmanned underwater vehicle completed a test cycle in December 2017.

The strategic hypersonic missile system Avangard – a successfully tested gliding wing unit is capable of intercontinental flight at supersonic speeds in excess of Mach 20. The gliding cruise bloc can travel intercontinental distances and engages in intensive maneuvering – both lateral and vertical, practically in conditions of plasma formation. The temperature on its surface reaches 1,600–2,000 degrees Celsius.

The super-heavy intercontinental ballistic missile Sarmat, weighs over 200 tonnes, it has a short boost phase, which makes it more difficult to intercept for missile defense systems. It is equipped with a broad range of powerful nuclear warheads, including hypersonic ones, and the most modern means of evading missile defense. Sarmat has practically no range restrictions.

Additionally, since 2017, Russian troops have been armed with laser weapons.

Hi Mouse!
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Sep 15, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 12:33pm PT



Witnesses? We'll show you some stinking witnesses

Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 15, 2018 - 02:58pm PT
Yes I think I know ...

I agree with what Gary Bates has to say on the matter. Very well researched documentary that was shown in the theaters across the US. Only in the theaters for a few nights. I went and watched it. Very good. Secular researchers and Christian believing researchers together work it out.

You may disagree, but at least watch the full documentary when you can. You have to understand this perspective to be educated on the full matter.

Alien Intrusion [Official Movie Trailer] #2
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZxYkM7PB7U
[Click to View YouTube Video]


Gary Bates | Unmasking Alien Intrusion and ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E_SDBKVAnpY
[Click to View YouTube Video]
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Sep 15, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
Jim, oh poor Jim why would you bring any reality into this. They can't hear.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
I've always wondered where all the UFO sightings were prior to 1947.......... Why were there no sightings before the jet age really got going? And why, for god's sake, do aliens need to do anal probes on humans? Seems a bit ... weird.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
Jim Brennan,

Neil deGrasse Tyson is always entertaining, that's why he has the job he does. I am familiar with most of what he talks about in your video reference, although I think he has some of it skewed a little bit for the sake of entertainment ... nothing serious.

My son won first prize at his grade school science fair with a demonstration of how Columbus stole the moon ... by direct astronomical observations on the beach, rather than by reading astronomical tables ...

(Archeo-astronomy is a fascinating subject and I love the book 'How the Shaman Stole the Moon' that was a gift from my young son.)

Tyson's charming reference to Galileo Galilei is just a passing glance, so he can be forgiven for poetically oversimplifying a long complex dramatic story.

And I had some direct professional involvement in the nuclear weapons sustainability program ... his description there seems a bit odd to me, but it's a very big program ...

However I don't quite see why your reference here is relevant to this discussion except to illustrate that there are some knowledgeable intelligent astrophysicists within the academic community.

So do you have relevant commentary on the video I referenced up-thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hmq-3Crw4cA
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 15, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
Sharing something of interest with everyone how is that bad? No fraud involved just curiosity. So you aren’t curious? You should be. The truth matters. Check into it or don’t. The choice is yours.


What the heck closed down the observatory? Really strange. Why so much secrecy?

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/uncategorized/406851-new-mexico-solar-observatory-denies-aliens-involved-in
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
Thank you Jim Brennan, I always appreciate your enlightened perspective ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
truth is like layers of an onion with always another layer to learn about

you are stuck needing to create your own level of trust

and i'm probably not the right person to ask

explain what you are asking for

how do you verify anything

TLP

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:21pm PT
With all of these supposedly well researched blogs and YouTube videos and so on, surely there's at least one single peer-reviewed publication about the metallurgy or biology. Somewhere. That's what I want to read. But I'm not going to waste hours watching what people, no matter who, talk about, only to find out there's no other evidence than their words and some dubious photos. I want the reference to that publication. Preferably a good 20 or 50 such publications. Everything else that's scientific reality is documented this way, and the fact that there is such a resounding silence in this regard about extraterrestrial visitors casts a huge amount of doubt on the eyewitness statements.

It was totally cool when a fish, and not just any fish but a really remarkable one phylogenetically and biologically, that was thought to have been extinct for tens of millions of years, was captured alive! It's totally cool when not just new species, but whole new genera of vertebrates turn up in southeast Asian food markets. There is zero reasonable doubt that there is life elsewhere than planet Earth (er, more like planet Water), and I'd be stoked to see real evidence of some of it coming here so we can learn about and from it. But I just do not see anything factual. Lots of people convicted of horrible crimes based on eyewitnesses turn out to be innocent based on solid evidence (e.g. DNA). So ALL of those statements reports funky photos, and all the rest sit in the unverified folder until we have some actual science about it. Anybody able to provide the citation(s) I'm looking for? Please do. The representation that the entire scientific periodical enterprise is censored (censured? not sure what's meant by it) is total hooey. A journal would absolutely KILL to be able to publish such an earth-shaking discovery. But it's got to be a solid article with backup data and samples that other experts can evaluate. And that never seems to turn up.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
TLP, there are many of those read into the black programs who think you deserve to know, and many of those have lost their lives trying.

However what you are asking for from peer reviewed journals is not going to happen so long as the controllers of the military/industrial complex have control of the information, unless you can obtain non-governmental security clearances many layers above Top Secret.

If you can't believe very senior whistle blower's books and reports and interviews or video imagery of unusual craft in flight, then you might be able to establish mental contact with someone willing to take you for a demonstration ride ...

in my humble opinion all of the above regarding advanced technology and alien and hybrid biology is irrelevant to the real challenge facing us, but you are making it clear that you aren't willing to listen and learn ... so best of luck with all that ...
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:43pm PT

The simple question is are non-human advanced species interacting with humans on earth?

The simple answer is yes without a doubt, even if we are limited to talking about whales and dolphins. This is notably a white man's hubris problem. Many older native cultures would not even think of asking such ridiculous questions on a planet with trillions of uniquely capable species.

This is more of a philosophical and perceptual question than not. You are manifested as a human being and apparently have opinions about how that somehow auto-magically makes you superior. Wrong. It only makes you pretty good at playing games uniquely devised within the limited world view of some humans. Many other species manifest as other life forms specialized in other sorts of games. You ask whether some life forms come from elsewhere? I would suggest that anyone asking such questions doesn't know nearly enough to be asking such questions and faces serious cognitive dissonance in their world view. Sorry about that.

Along with this is the question whether there are vehicles in this planet's atmosphere and oceans and underground that are well beyond the technology of our popularly known aircraft and submarines and subterrains? The answer to this is heavily suppressed by the local controllers. But it is very well documented by innumerable cases where radar shows vehicles performing maneuvers beyond what we know about the physical laws of aerodynamics, while also being observed at close range by pilots in the air. Those who deny this are just not paying attention or else are part of the coverup. It is being covered up because people who take such games very seriously, don't like to admit when they have been outclassed. The oddest part of this question is the primitive viewpoint that vehicles are even useful or needed except perhaps as a convenient place to keep stuff organized. Such advanced vehicles represent a serious distraction from much more important issues.

This leads to the question as to whether such vehicles demonstrate advanced secret capabilities of the military/industrial complex on this planet or from elsewhere? Again asking this question reveals serious philosophical perception challenges. The documented evidence indicates a resounding yes within the terms that are realistic to you.

It's not the government and yes they can keep secrets.

However all these questions become moot once you begin to assimilate the implications of quantum physics into your perceptual world view.
dirtbag

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:55pm PT
You guys do realize that X-files was fiction?
TLP

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 11:48pm PT
Oh, I definitely agree about whales and dolphins, these are incredibly intelligent non-human organisms. But they fit in the well documented framework of biology. Ants too: the colony as a whole functions in incredibly sophisticated ways, using means of coordination that we have worked out only at a rudimentary level.

As for the vehicles, the evidence is unconvincing as of yet. Open to better documentation any time. I also disagree about the keeping of secrets. Humans simply cannot do it on a large scale of space, numbers of individuals, and timeline. There is a point about the possibility of the flying things being fairly ordinary, namely products of sophisticated military R&D. But as to exceeding the known laws of physics, no way this can be convincing without really really bombproof documentation. If this exists but is being effectively suppressed, oh well, file it under Santa Claus until later.

Finally there are the reported extraterrestrial beings. Why are they always humanoid? The most unlikely imaginable body plan for an organism. Why are they never whale-iform? Or raven-iform? Or insectiform? This makes any thinking person very suspicious about the veracity of the statements; even more suspicious that there are so many such statements but they are always vaguely parallel.
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 16, 2018 - 06:29am PT
Local controllers unionized?

Dues?

President Hoffa. Never found.

Peter Donat, Agent Mulder’s Father on 'The X-Files,' Dies at 90

It is rumoured that this is a Whale Tale told to Dr. Lilly at some point in conversation.

“In the province of the mind, what one believes to be true, either is true or becomes true within certain limits. These limits are to be found experientially and experimentally. When the limits are determined, it is found that they are further beliefs to be transcended. In the province of the mind, there are no limits. The body imposes definite limits.”

Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Sep 16, 2018 - 08:48am PT
K-2.0 Thank you for answering.

K2 and TC bear their souls here. Disagreeing is a great discussion. Just hitting them with put-downs is highly un-evolved, middle-school bullying. (oops, there I did it too)

My policy is to look, but believe none of the tall tales. I will look but believe only my own perceptions. (and even those can be suspect)


Niel deGrasse Tyson is a prophet of Science. He wants you to believe it like a religion. He is no different than an evangelist. If you feel comfortable with him, you are being hypnotized.

True science is objective. You say "it looks like it might be this way." A true scientist doesn't speak in absolutes.

FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Sep 16, 2018 - 10:32am PT
As you peel each layer of an Onion you get more of the same more Onion.

As you peel each layer of the truth you get more of the same the truth.
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Sep 16, 2018 - 10:57am PT
I love this thread. The back and forth between Tom Cohcrane and TLP is great. As to TLPs question about why all the alleged aliens are humanoid, could it be convergent evolution on a galactic scale? And why do you say the human form is unlikely imaginable body plan for an organism? It seems to work (mostly) well for us.
TLP

climber
Sep 16, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
The human body plan works great for us in many respects (though not so well for aging backs), but it's still unlikely. Mammals were around for 100 million years or something, and hominins are the only truly bipedal one. Other tetrapods, what, 300 million years? more? But the only bipedal dinosaurs (including birds) have pretty limited function of the forelimbs (other than wings, pretty functional to be sure). That's all I mean by unlikely. The sequence of evolutionary innovations leading to humanoid form, with highly functional forelimbs (meaning, with hands on them), is a complicated sequence. It seems just really beyond plausible coincidence that the same sequence would occur elsewhere in the galaxy (or other galaxies) and be the ONLY sequence with the current representatives being intelligent enough to make interstellar vehicles. Possible, to be sure, just really unlikely.

I would be stoked if real evidence of such travellers turned up, really. I don't entirely discount the possibility at all. I just don't find any of the proferred evidence convincing yet. Totally amazing things turn up in science all the time, like for instance the recent demonstration that plants react to damage in one leaf and transmit (passively, but they still do it) a signal rapidly to other parts of the plant in seconds, and this triggers genetic mobilization of defenses. Wow! Back when it was widely deemed ridiculous to talk to your house plants, anyone suggesting this happened would have been ridiculed too. And yet here we have solid evidence from repeatable experiments with all the methods described precisely. That's what needs to turn up for the hypothesis of interstellar vehicles other than human-built probes to get a better reception.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Sep 17, 2018 - 09:37pm PT
lol ... 82 alien species visiting earth??...have fun with this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Fsn0B3ti8
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Oct 20, 2018 - 01:40pm PT
Another conspiracy about the deaths of alien UFO conspiracists: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7512409/us-airman-who-claimed-he-saw-top-secret-nasa-photos-of-alien-structures-on-the-moon-dies-in-horror-bike-accident/
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Oct 24, 2018 - 07:50am PT
They're watching. Trump's presidency and reigniting the nuclear arms race has triggered a cosmic ripple....


fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 24, 2018 - 07:57am PT
There was a perfectly smooth slab rising out of the center of Mt St Helen's crater a few years ago... That was definitely aliens.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 24, 2018 - 05:56pm PT
good eye Nut, you beat me to it. It has to be an alien landing platform
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Oct 24, 2018 - 07:21pm PT
Yeah, well alien crabs monsters have been photographed on Mars by NASA.
Wonder what they eat?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 24, 2018 - 08:22pm PT
Can't be much since they leave no tracks in the dust. Did the Nihelim eat those?
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Oct 25, 2018 - 08:37am PT
Nephilim levitate and wouldn't leave tracks so it makes perfect sense.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Nov 5, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
Breaking news: https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/scientists-say-mysterious-oumuamua-object-could-be-alien-spacecraft-ncna931381

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Nov 6, 2018 - 10:10am PT
Paging Dr. Klimmer. Paging Dr. Klimmer.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/06/health/oumuamua-alien-probe-harvard-intl/index.html
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 6, 2018 - 10:57am PT
Either it is the Jolly Green Giant's joint or Klimmer bait
couchmaster

climber
Nov 6, 2018 - 11:28am PT



It's interesting that the Harvard astronomers have essentially described Klimmers object he put up in the very first post.





"A mysterious cigar-shaped object spotted tumbling through our solar system last year may have been an alien spacecraft sent to investigate Earth, astronomers from Harvard University have suggested.

The object, nicknamed 'Oumuamua, meaning "a messenger that reaches out from the distant past" in Hawaiian, was discovered in October 2017 by the Pan-STARRS 1 telescope in Hawaii. Since its discovery, scientists have been at odds to explain its unusual features and precise origins, with researchers first calling it a comet and then an asteroid before finally deeming it the first of its kind: a new class of "interstellar objects."

A new paper by researchers at the Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics raises the possibility that the elongated dark-red object, which is 10 times as long as it is wide and traveling at speeds of 196,000 mph, might have an "artificial origin."

"'Oumuamua may be a fully operational probe sent intentionally to Earth vicinity by an alien civilization," they wrote in the paper, which has been submitted to the Astrophysical Journal Letters. The theory is based on the object's "excess acceleration," or its unexpected boost in speed as it traveled through and ultimately out of our solar system in January."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2018 - 02:01pm PT
Just in time for a reverse Thanksgiving!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 6, 2018 - 04:39pm PT
Gravitational pull?
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 12, 2018 - 11:47am PT
I knew you guys would come through. Saw the articles too. Knew someone here on ST would see the connection due to the shape. How unbelievably bizarre. Lol


But this object is about 1/10th the length and width of the Apollo 20 Lunar massive alien spaceship discovery. Perhaps its a scout ship? Lol


Hey I'm not nuts. Even Harvard astronomy scientists are thinking its of alien intelligence and origin, perhaps sent into our Solar System as a scout ...



Here's the Truth About the Bizarre 'Alien Spacecraft' That Buzzed Our Solar System
http://time.com/5446125/alien-probe-oumuamua/


Their scientific paper:

COULD SOLAR RADIATION PRESSURE EXPLAIN
‘OUMUAMUA’S PECULIAR ACCELERATION?
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1810.11490.pdf


If so, then perhaps its an alien lightsail!!!


See their summary and discussion at end of the scientific paper posted above.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 12, 2018 - 01:15pm PT
This is totally relevant if you understand Q ...



Watch:
Q - The Plan To Save The World (Subtitles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vw9N96E-aQ&t=115s


Q & A:
Ask yourself who is narrating this video?
What and who is Q?
Who is within Q?:

A:
Military Intelligence
POTUS
JFK Jr. (He truly lives believe it or not)
All of us
We are Q.


Learn more:
About 30 videos to get caught up on what is happening in the background. You have some HW …

JFK JR LIVES!!! #1: ADDRESSING THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM (VIDEO 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYeJ5_xjiI8

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Edit: Stay up with Q drops ...

https://qmap.pub/



If you don't honestly look into it you will never know.

I'm looking forward to John-John's and his family's return to the public after decades of being safeguarded by the military witness protection program. It will be a very happy and a very wonderful good day ...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 12, 2018 - 03:50pm PT
Man, and I thought he encountered IMC while flying VFR and entered a death spiral. Silly me. While I have you on the phone Kilmmer, have you donated to my GoFundMe campaign yet?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 12, 2018 - 04:48pm PT
Hey I'm not nuts.

Evidence?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 12, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

And that’s why disinformation, as perfected by the Russians, works so well.
It allows you to believe what you want to believe while you’re lead down a primrose path.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 14, 2018 - 12:00pm PT

Read the statement from R placed on the Q list as a BIG drop of truth. It’s over the picture of 2 very close good friends DJT and JFK JR ...













All truth.

The pain is coming soon. Get ready ...

But it will be good for our Country. We will be getting our Country back.

WWG1WGA

Q:
Military Intel
POTUS
JFK JR
Many Patriots



Happy Hanukkah

Merry Christmas

Merry-Happy Chrismukkah !!!!!!!


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T9C-H_UvbUg

[Click to View YouTube Video]
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 14, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
Well, that was moronic.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Dec 14, 2018 - 04:11pm PT
Another stable moronic conspiracy?

Supertopo as an agent of the deep state? What is it hiding?
Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Dec 15, 2018 - 05:41am PT
https://www.thedailybeast.com/green-party-candidate-named-as-fake-jfk-jr-profiting-from-qanon?ref=home
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 18, 2018 - 05:57am PT
Fake News. Vincent Fusca was never a real possibility. Simply a distraction.

Truth is real. Disinformation is fake but necessary.

Go through all the Q drops and you will see what is real and what is fake.


Archive of only Q drops ...

https://qmap.pub



Q battles the Deep State constantly even online in a public setting. It’s a cyber war for real. We are at war. The DS they do not want the truth to be known. But it will be. They can’t stop it. It’s coming in a massive way.

“The Plan” was begun prior to “the plane crash” of JFK JR et al. prior to July 16, 1999. They knew what they were doing, and what they had to do, and they knew what the Deep State was planning and capable of. It had to happen. JFK JR and his wife and sister in law had to be protected.

JFK JR is alive along with his wife and her sister. JFK JR and his wife now have children of their own around the age of 18 or so.

I will add resources ....




https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rrP4o5Phjq0

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Why was this man who has the same physique of JFK JR stand- up paddle boarding (SUP) with the Kennedy clan in SF Bay with a mask on, on the anniversary of his “death” by plane crash on 7-16-2018 this past summer?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TvbAobrlMEw

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Inquiring minds want to know ...


Well I’m just gonna say it ...

Hi JFK JR!!!!!

dirtbag

climber
Dec 18, 2018 - 06:13am PT
Yeah...why believe the simplest explanations—that Jfk
Jr is dead and trump is a crook—when fanciful fables will do?
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 18, 2018 - 08:03am PT
Oh my, RFK jr is wearing a mask at a public event parade in McCovey Cove. Must be JFK jr.

And look, he's holding up his fingers. No one would hold a paddle that way, unless they were trying to send a cryptic message.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 18, 2018 - 09:11am PT
That clearly looks like General Grant. Everyone knows he is not in his tomb.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Dec 18, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
^^^

Yeah, that was the scary part. What "science" was he teaching? TRUTHER sicence, youbetcha.

BAd
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 18, 2018 - 08:50pm PT
Truth is real. Disinformation is fake but necessary.

Klimmer, WTF does that even mean? Is this some sort of double negative? Take the meds man, take the meds...

Personal note: This ain't Klimmer or I'm wearing Hello Kitty underwear. Whoops. Pictures at 10:00.

10:00. Will this get me banned?

Edited to add: Got them for my wife as a joke.
Edited to add edited to add: I guess I'm stupid. Still, LMAO.
Edited to add: Wife said to take the photo down, She's probably right.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Dec 18, 2018 - 09:15pm PT
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 19, 2018 - 08:09am PT
https://www.cnet.com/news/headless-chicken-monster-filmed-near-antarctica-for-the-first-time/
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2018 - 10:37am PT
Please check Robert Kennedy Jr’s Twitter account for yourself.

What are the odds????:

*This is RK Jr.’s official Twitter account.
*RK Jr is the one who posts the picture.
*Somewhat of a Kennedy clan gathering at this event ... perhaps at least 3 Kennedys are there.
*Posted this unusual photo on the anniversary of JFK Jr’s (supposed) plane crash and death 7-16-2018 on his Twitter account.
*This takes place near the same time that Q drops on the Q board online keep hinting about JFK JR. being alive.
*Then R shows up on the Q board and makes a mysterious post regarding The Plan and claims to be JFK JR. And that The Plan was started on 7-16-1999, the date of the faked plane crash. That JFK JR and POTUS are very good friends and have worked out The Plan together with Military Intel to get our country back from the Deep State.

*The person on the SUP board has the same physique as JFK JR. Do a comparison. I would like to do a thorough photogrammetry analysis and measure known ratios of body limbs etc. of JFK JR of photos we know are JFK JR. And then compare those same ratios to this image on the SUP board. My hypothesis is that they would be the same. In time I will try to do that.
*Remember this is RK Jr.’s official Twitter account. He knows what people are saying and what comments are being made in his Twitter account. He isn’t disputing anyone saying that the image is of JFK JR with a mask on!!!
*I think they are revealing the truth in a drip drip sort of way to get people to think about it and be very hopeful so no one has a heart attack from the good news that he and his wife are very much alive. I think he will be completely publically revealed very soon.
*The Deep State is gonna pooooooop their pants. Perhaps some here on ST will do so as well. You will all realize in an instant that our POTUS has been telling the truth the entire time and truly deeply cares for our country and is fighting with many patriots to save the USA.


Check it for yourself ...

https://mobile.twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1018903554566836224
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 19, 2018 - 11:01am PT
It's kinda like any claimed religious book-of-record...

Cool stories bro....

But then nothing ever happens.

And trust me... my tinfoil is thick and shiny-side out.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 19, 2018 - 11:06am PT
Yes, Klimmer, we know its from RFK jr. Sheesh.

Now show that RFK jr could not possibly be behind the mask.

I think he will be completely publically revealed very soon

Will keep checking with you to see when it's going to happen and what weak rationale you will come up with when it doesn't happen.

And please do your optical analysis. Your last analysis that 'proved' that a missile was fired over LA was quite entertaining.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 19, 2018 - 12:19pm PT
*RK JR is 64 years old. See the photo on his Twitter with his son.

*The person on the SUP is younger, in better shape. Look at the calves. He’s in really good shape.

*The arms of RK JR do not look like the arms of the SUPer.

*The SUPer is wearing a watch on his left wrist. RK JR is not.

*The SUPer is wearing a ring on his second finger of his left hand, not his ring finger. RK JR is wearing his wedding ring on his left hand and on his ring finger.

*Obviously they are not wearing the same clothes. The SUPer is not worried about falling in. Natural athlete and can SUP really good. He is demonstrating the proper stance and everything. Confidence.

I SUP. The masked man is a good SUPer. I can tell. JFK JR is a natural athlete. Good at many sports and always stayed active.


https://mobile.twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1018903554566836224
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 19, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
From your watch and band observations, I'm inclined to consider the possibility that neither are behind the mask. It's just a pic he took from the boat, just like the other pic of the canoes.

But if you want to go by just physiques, here they are 21 years ago. Close enough physiques. How you think you could distinguish them today from behind a mask is baffling.


And why should the Kennedy's respond to conspiracy theory replies to their tweets? They are the prime target of all kinds of conspiracy theories.

And why do you think it's a Kennedy gathering when only RFK jr is pictured?
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 19, 2018 - 02:07pm PT
What is wrong with you people everyone knows that is GRANT behind the mask!!

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Dec 19, 2018 - 02:23pm PT
Sheesh! It is SO obviously HRC behind the mask. Gimme a break. All this thrutching around about the obvious, and all missing the obvious. Hiding in plain sight, and all that.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 09:53am PT
Very difficult to do comparisons with photogrammetry since the SUPer image is taken obliquely from a dock or boat, but an honest visual comparison is spot on. Others have done these graphics ...







I honestly think that disclosure of JFK JR and his wife and her sister being alive will happen soon. Too much evidence too ignore and subtle disclosures already to ignore.

Remember Tiffany Blue ... an important color to the Kennedy family. Why does Shaun Hannity keep wearing Tiffany Blue for his audience? And POTUS keeps getting pictures around the WH in the press with Tiffany Blue in them. Many messages are being sent to those paying attention. Then on Jan 3rd, 2019, a TV special on JFK JR will be televised. Why now?


See the original posted image ... vivid Tiffany Blue ...

Donald Trump's Telling Change to the Oval Office
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/spot-the-difference-oval-office-edition/538008/



Why is the masked SUPer wearing a band of Tiffany Blue around his head?
Why is the woman behind him on a SUP wearing a scarf of Tiffany Blue on her head immediately behind the masked SUPer? Now you know.


Actually in 1999 on Larry King’s Show, Donald Trump let the world know that JFK JR was still alive. We had to be paying attention. Then we weren’t. Now we are. I will post that incredibly interesting evidence a little later ...
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:04am PT
Hey Klimmer, SUP boy is wearing his watch and band on his left hand. JFK jr was left-handed and wore his watch on his right hand.

Case Closed.


Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:36am PT
Lol.

I’m right handed and I wear my watch on my left hand.

This article says JFK JR was left handed ...

http://www.indiana.edu/~primate/left.html


SUP boy is also wearing a ring on the second finger of the left hand rather than the ring finger.

Watches and rings are easily moved around. Some disinformation is necessary.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:37am PT
I’m right handed and I wear my watch on my left hand.

This article says JFK JR was left handed ...
That's exactly the point, dufus.

Can[t you see JFK is wearing his watch on his right hand.

SUP boy is wearing his watch on his left hand.

SUP boy is also wearing a ring on the second finger of the left hand rather than the ring finger.

Yes, because SUP boy is neither JFK jr, or RFK jr.

Thanks for playing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:41am PT
Can somebody fill me in (succinctly) as to JFK Jr’s connection to the Moon Ark?
Izzit cause his dad is in that Ark?
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:43am PT
Watches and rings are easily moved around. Some disinformation is necessary

And you were just trying to use the watch and bands as evidence it wasn't RFK jr.

And there you have it. The more evidence against something the more faith a man of faith can display.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:55am PT
The original post on the Q list from R = JFK JR, indicates a situation with NASA and that his father JFK asked what were The Greys all about, leading to his assisination.

So there is a connection in a rather round about way ... Lol
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:55am PT
Suppose that we accept the powers-that-be kill people that present hurdles to their nefarious goals. Suppose we accept that practice has been around likely since the first homonid picked up a spear.

So what if Kennedy is still alive but in hiding? Good for him/her/them....

So what if he suddenly reveals this elaborate plan/hoax? Aside from a certain death at that point, do we really think this will somehow establish a new empire of enlightenment?


monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 11:01am PT
Yes, that's exactly what they expect. The imaginary deep state will be destroyed, left and right will unite.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 11:03am PT
There are a lot of subtle clues as to the real identity of who SUP man truly is. Go back through the list.

I add all the Tiffany Blue clues to the list now also ...

Why would RK JR try to hide his identity on a SUP? No reason for it. Yet there is a great many reasons to hide JFK JR’s identity, except to those he is trying to send a hopeful message that he is alive still. He’s giving many people who can see the truth — Hope.

We have Hope for this country of ours and we are getting it back from the DS!!!
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 11:07am PT
SUP boy is not RFK jr or JFK jr. SUP boy is just one of the many revelers that were in canoes or on sup boards in McCovey Cove that day.

RFK jr was on the boat that was part of the public celebration event. There is a picture of him on the boat, with a Best Buddies kid. Best Buddies was founded by a Kennedy to assist some kids in need.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 11:50am PT
Monolith,

Use binoculars not a monocular. There are many things going on in the background of our nation that we are just now getting privy too. Get on the Q list and read it for yourself.

Archive of Q posts:
https://qmap.pub/?pg=1
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 21, 2018 - 11:55am PT
Yer brain is so open, it's fallen out long ago.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 21, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
Can somebody fill me in (succinctly) as to JFK Jr’s connection to the Moon Ark?

Geez Reilly, get with the program!!! Giant Ark lands on the moon, giant Nephilim shoot to earth, are involved in the JFK assassination (are we even sure he's dead?) then set up the 'Q' conspiracy thingie by inhabiting earthly bodies, mostly Klimmer's, Kidnap and disappear JFK Jr. by hiding him in plain sight, and are now in the process of reviving the Illuminati who are circulating out there controlling everything.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 21, 2018 - 01:14pm PT
This is not the only running thread that proves the inmates run the insane asylum.

Very well said.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 21, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
Wild theories and empty seats at CPAC-style conference for the MAGA set
Talk of QAnon, George Soros and ‘retarded’ reporters at the American Priority Conference.

By BEN SCHRECKINGER 12/07/2018

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2018/12/07/american-priority-conference-trump-1052214?__twitter_impression=true


Quote from article ...

At the first-ever American Priority Conference on Friday morning, Anthony Scaramucci — who served a brief stint as the Trump White House’s communications director — addressed a married couple from Virginia, telling them that the author of the fantastical Internet conspiracy theory QAnon has “been dead accurate about so many things,” adding: “When you find out who he is, you’re not going to believe it.”
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 21, 2018 - 05:40pm PT
Hmmmmm. Maybe Trump read this as a child. Nah, he can't read. Still...

Edited to add: For anyone out there who hasn't read Tintin, you really should. These early books are a reflection of the times, from the Belgium Congo debacle to this, a pure propaganda read for communism; they are really fascinating. I've added the cover of the Congo book here. It's amazingly racist by current standards, but back in the day it was no big deal.

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Dec 21, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
You will all realize in an instant that our POTUS has been telling the truth the entire time and truly deeply cares for our country and is fighting with many patriots to save the USA.

Is this not a Russian bot . . . If the Donald cares so much he really has a strange way of showing it. Spewing, lying, humiliating and condescending are not the proper emotional responses from a true patriot.
Psilocyborg

climber
Dec 22, 2018 - 08:33pm PT
proof of aliens

https://youtu.be/64K9Wm0L_s8?t=1440
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 22, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
It's Grant - really - I'm telling you it's Grant - He has a master plan It's GRANT!

That is three Grant posts, three more and you all will be convinced.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 22, 2018 - 10:16pm PT
It's Grant - really - I'm telling you it's Grant

You, sir, are not making any sense, or at least, very little! Grant? General Grant? President Grant? Grant of immunity? Gratis? We're all free? Amnesty? Presidential pardon? Exactly where are you going here? Inquiring minds want to know! Did the Giant Ark on the Moon 'Grant' immunity? Wow; too much for the common human brain to encompass. I suspect the aliens are among us and they are not helping things at all.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 23, 2018 - 03:29pm PT
Donald Trump let the world know that JFK JR was still alive on the Larry King show in 1999. Listen at the 37 min mark ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEVzCtcT-Mo

[Click to View YouTube Video]

The transcript to the October 8, 1999 show ...

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/10/08/trump.transcript/



The Plan Had begun already. Donald Trump after JFK JR’s supposed plane crash death, had begun to float the idea of running for President of the US already:

*JFK JR supposed Plane crash was July 16,1999

*Donald Trump receives a hand written letter from JFK JR written on July 19, 1999.

*Larry King reads the hand written letter and calls out the date of the hand written letter finally correctly as July 19, 1999.

*Donald Trump doesn’t correct him. Larry King finally reads it correct. Again Donald Trump doesn’t correct him. Larry read it right.

*How can a dead man who died 7-16-1999, write his good friend a hand written condolences letter on 7-19-1999 to comfort Donald after Donald's Father’s death?

*Donald doesn’t seem too upset. He knows the truth JFK JR is still alive and they had to allow his death by plane crash to occur as the Deep State planned to kill JFK JR, to fool the Deep State that wanted JFK JR gone and that they had succeeded in assasinating him. Brilliant plan really.

Back in 1999, we should have been listening and we weren’t. Now we are. Now we get it and we understand.

I very much look forward to JFK JR returning to public light fully. Thank you and President Trump for working so hard together to take down the Deep State and to return our nation to the rule of Law and to the people.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Dec 23, 2018 - 04:01pm PT
Klimmer, any chance you could beam Elvis back down to Earth?
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 23, 2018 - 04:15pm PT
He can not, but maybe Grant can. He does have an ark on the moon and he is hiding behind a mask here, he most likely can bring back Elvis.

Where am I going with this? I think that is self explanatory.

I'm not making any sense OMG and the rest of this is rocket science
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 23, 2018 - 05:48pm PT
This letter that you got from JFK, September 19th -- August 19th -- July 19, '99, your father passed away when, in July?

They were talking about the date Trump got the letter, not the date it was written.

Dumbass
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 23, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
Where am I going with this? I think that is self explanatory.

My thoughts exactly. Everything is self explanatory if we know, and we do, that conspiracies are circular. What more need be said? Klimmer2.0 you need to prove your bono fides; answer this - what was your one true desire? We who have read this thread know.... don't hold back.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 23, 2018 - 10:42pm PT
Mono,

No, Larry King was reading the actual hand written letter and looked at the date JFK JR wrote it, 7-19-1999. He had trouble figuring 7- as the month of July but finally got it. Note the 19th he didn’t mistake. You don’t write a date on a letter for when you think they will receive it but when you actually wrote the letter.

He did say receive but he is looking at the original letter and the date it was written.

Donald Trump doesn’t correct him. Trump knew what he was doing. The Plan had already begun.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 23, 2018 - 11:01pm PT
He did say receive

Yes, he did. He didn’t say when it was written.
monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 24, 2018 - 07:48am PT
Yes, Klimmer, he was looking at the letter, or a copy of the letter, cuz it was stamped or written with the receive date, as secretaries often did for business people in that era.

Trumps father died in June, which Trump did not correct when King said he died in July.

Neither of them were particularly driven to get dates correct anyway.

But lets throw out Occam's Razor once again, and come up with the most nefarious, illogical, explanation we can.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 24, 2018 - 08:36am PT
Why on earth are you guys wasting time on this nutcase!

You can not help stupid if stupid wants to stay stupid.

Anyhow everybody knows it's Grant.

WBraun

climber
Dec 24, 2018 - 08:40am PT
I was just talking to JFK Jr. on the phone and he said he'll be back soon along with Elvis just to make Klimmer happy.

So don't be so hard on him .....

(Never underestimate what you're up against)
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2018 - 10:39am PT
Awwww... We love Klimmer....

Merry X-mas/Kwanza/Nephilima!

Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 24, 2018 - 06:02pm PT
It is a very good Christmas Eve!!! A wonderful telling tweet from POTUS ...

“It all began 19 years ago!” What started 19 years ago??? The Plan with JFK JR. July 16, 1999 the supposed plane crash ...

What is it gonna take for you all to wake up???



Much more Tiffany Blue on Christmas Eve ... Ya think The President likes to send partially hidden messages to those who know and are awake? Ya think???

Spot on people.




fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 24, 2018 - 08:39pm PT
I voted for the man as the far lesser of evil puppets. You have to admit he just doesn't seem all that bright. Not Bush-stupid but too blunt to be speaking in riddles. Subtle innuendo just isn't his thing Klimmer... like ever...

If the Kennedy thing were true, then he'd be murdered already by the same plotters as that power structure still exists. He would gain nothing but death by dropping little hints like this and appearing in public. It's not a game.

Have a Merry Christmas! May you prove us all wrong!



FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 25, 2018 - 10:54am PT
Trump makes W look like a genius.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 27, 2018 - 09:02pm PT
Let’s stay on topic, people.

I want to know more about the scientific evidence that the ark flew to the moon.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Dec 28, 2018 - 08:08am PT
Oh please!!


What evidence
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 28, 2018 - 09:34pm PT
You haven’t read this thread from post 1......have you.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 28, 2018 - 11:03pm PT
Damn Lorenzo, you da man. Read every fantastic post and I know what's going on and it ain't what you think.


Well, Lorenzo knows...

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 28, 2018 - 11:12pm PT
Oddly enough, this whole post reminds me of Walter White, for obscure but not unknown reasons. I'll say no more.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Dec 29, 2018 - 12:07am PT
Well, Lorenzo knows...

Well, there are still a lot of questions.

Let’s just assume there is a magical flying ark on the moon. Who’s was it?

Until about 150 years ago the only answer was Noah.

But since then tablets have been discovered and deciphered. It turns out there are at least four Arks mentioned in ancient writings. Ziusudra built one. So did Atrahasis. Both their names mean “ the long lived one” in their respective Sumerian and Babylonian.
Then Gigamesh’s Akkadian mentor Utnapishtim is mentioned as having built one. He is in eternal retirement when Gilgamesh finds him ( or was it Enkidu who finds him?)

Noah is the newcomer in the group, and he only lives 950 years or so.

Just measuring the size of the ark won’t tell you. They are all within 4% of each other in deck space, although they are different shapes.

And only one was made of gopher wood, whatever that is. Maybe flubber comes from gopher trees.

Klim, you still there?

couchmaster

climber
Dec 29, 2018 - 07:55am PT


https://interestingengineering.com/7-of-the-oddest-things-about-oumuamua-other-than-its-name

Titled

"The 7 of the Oddest Things about 'Oumuamua Other than Its Name"
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 29, 2018 - 07:28pm PT
As incredibly interesting as the massive spacecraft on the backside of the Moon is, I’d rather think about something that is somewhat related and at the moment much more tangible only because of what he said and the evidence is pretty clear that he is very much alive and when he comes back to public view fully and all is revealed along with his family and why they had to do this ... well, I’m pretty sure that many here will be blown away by the full-blown brightness and glory of the unadulterated truth. Will you apologize for being such doubting Thomases? I doubt it.

I was right about Donald Trump becoming President. I was right. Doubting Thomases all of you. No apology for being wrong.

Some very glaring evidence that can’t be ignored ...

Working to post it ...

The original R post (bottom clipped though) on the Q 8chan list on 6-24-2018 ... No one thought JFK JR was still alive until then.




Why did JFK JR have this tattoo near the end before he went down in a supposed plane crash on July 16, 1999? The tattoo is of the Australian Z Special Unit that is military intelligence, airborne, and divers, an elite WW2 unit with many missions. The motto is: “Out of Conflict ... Comradship is Borne” Seems he was telling us a huge message. He knew the Deep State wanted him dead — the Conflict. Between DJT and JFK JR a Comradship was borne and they began The Plan.






You think President DJT as a simpleton and easily understood. You can’t be further from the truth. He is pretty brilliant. He is in Q. He helped hatch The Plan to get our country back from the wicked Deep State cabal. Here is Trump air signing “Q.” He knows what he is doing and who he is communicating with ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xwRncFpt_Io

[Click to View YouTube Video]


JFK JR at Browne University was an actor in theater. Apparently he liked to act and be different characters and he was good at it too. There are 2 Vincent Fuscas. One is real and older looking, and one looks like Vincent but is younger looking, this would be JFK JR dressed up as Vincent Fusca.

Gee what does the fake Vincent Fusca sign in the air sitting next to his wife Mrs. Kennedy?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=yHNMvZkqTzs

[Click to View YouTube Video]



20 year JFK JR memorial collector magazine on display until December 14, 2018 ...

ABC TV special on JFK JR airing January 3, 2018 ...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 29, 2018 - 09:16pm PT
You ain't no Klimmer. The Ark On The Moon drove the man Klimmer to endless nights of watching and posting Youtube videos about bullshit alien stuff; you seem to have some sort of homo-erotic fixation on JFK Jr. as expressed by your choice of photos. The real Klimmer wanted to date his daughter. Do you? (Want to date your own daughter, not Klimmer's, although Klimmer thought she was hot, as does Trump re Ivanka).

JFK Jr. died when he flew his plane into IMC conditions when he was only competent to fly VFR. Ever try to ski in the fog? Same thing. No sense of where you are, no way to understand what's going on, and eventually entering a death spiral where your senses can't tell you reality. G forces from turning tell your brain you are flying straight and level when the reality is you are in a spiral dive. I guess that is an appropriate description of what happened to the real Klimmer; no basis in reality, only the feelings.

Klimmer2.0 I suggest you read this entire huge mass of drivel before you try and pretend you are the real deal. This thread is a classic and could be published as a book. The humor and thought encased in the comments and the interaction is amazing. I certainly hope this thread is never nuked.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 29, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
WM get real.

There is an alien connection if you read R = JFK JR’s Q post.

I get tired of trying to convince people of life altering truth though their heads are in the sand ...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 29, 2018 - 09:32pm PT
Yeah, sand worms got to your brain. Give it a rest, you ain't the real deal.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Jan 1, 2019 - 05:17pm PT
K2.0 seems to have his nuts all in a row, just like the original...
if I'm wrong, I'm still entertained..
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 1, 2019 - 07:21pm PT
Nah, this ain't the REAL Klimmer. Hey Klimmer2.0, what do you do for a living? Klimmer would be up all night posting YouTube videos and conspiracy theories and would even post during work hours. He was real serious about it. Klimmer2.0 is too rational to be the real deal. And Klimmer2.0, when Trump mentioned 19 years he wasn't talking about JFK Jr., he was talking about the middle east. But you knew that. Occam's Razor has been mentioned and it cuts clean.

Having said that, the Chinese are about to land a probe on the dark side of the moon, or at least the back side; I guess they are going to have a look at the Ark.
WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2019 - 07:29pm PT
What's the matter with you????

You drunk on wine again ....
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 1, 2019 - 07:34pm PT
Nah W, just chilling. Just curious; is being drunk on wine somehow different to being drunk on beer? Or Gin? And I was curious if the government shutdown affects you.

Edited to add: Actually, being drunk on really good wine is way better than being drunk on Bud Lite.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Jan 1, 2019 - 07:43pm PT
Besides the conspiracy thing, how are you doing Klimmer?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 1, 2019 - 08:32pm PT
Edited to add: Actually, being drunk on really good wine is way better than being drunk on Bud Lite.

No sh#t. And ten times... no, a thousand times... better than being drunk on whatever Werner gets off on.

Now, that said, none of us knows what it is that Klimmer is floating on. Moonbeams? Fentanyl? Fumes from Tin Tin's rocket launch?

Whatever it is, the world needs more of it.
WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2019 - 09:16pm PT
So you just admitted you're a drunkard.

And being a drunk fool is a thousand times better than being sober,

No wonder this place is so insane .....
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 1, 2019 - 10:01pm PT
No, what I said was that if one were to be drunk, it's better to be drunk on good wine than sh#t beer. So what about the shut down and you?

And being a drunk fool is a thousand times better than being sober,

No, being a sober idiot is a thousand times worse than being a drunk fool.
WBraun

climber
Jan 1, 2019 - 10:08pm PT
It's no wonder you're insane ....
Jay S

Mountain climber
Silver Gate, Mt
Jan 5, 2019 - 02:57pm PT
Maybe the Chinese can shed some light on the Arc with their rover that just landed.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 5, 2019 - 03:38pm PT
Looks like about 400 miles to the ark from where they landed... the ark is safe.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 5, 2019 - 03:56pm PT
This whole thing just got more complex with the pictures of Ultima Thule; that's a Nephilim face staring at us for sure, or maybe some sort of giant interstellar ant creature. This must be the mother ship of the Moon Ark and it's only 4 billion miles away. This is scary stuff indeed!


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 9, 2019 - 12:16pm PT
BBC:

Mysterious Radio Signals From Deep Space Detected

Astronomers have revealed details of mysterious signals emanating from a distant galaxy, picked up by a telescope in Canada

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46811618

___

The good news is that you crankloons might have time to repent -
the signals are from 1.5 billion light years away.

thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Jan 9, 2019 - 12:24pm PT
I think they got Klimmer in the clink
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 9, 2019 - 01:39pm PT
Damn Canadian government is already overrun and they are throwing us off their trail! It's the moon, stupid!

edit: TBC for the win!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 9, 2019 - 01:55pm PT
^^^ Nope, the site requires me to turn off my (tinfoil hat) adblocker, which I won't do. I won't do it. Not for anybody. The signals get through, and they make me think crazy thoughts and do crazy things.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Jan 9, 2019 - 04:00pm PT
^^^

madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Jan 9, 2019 - 05:22pm PT
^^^ LOL

Yup, that's me and my adblocker sidekick. Sites that require me to take down my shields aren't important enough to see. Even the NYT doesn't rate.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Jan 11, 2019 - 11:40am PT
the original tinfoil hat wack job...

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Jan 17, 2019 - 09:57pm PT
It seems highly suspicious. The Chinese soft-landed Chang'e 4 on the far side of the Moon, on January 3rd. That's right - just where Klimmer's ark is. There's a rover and everything.

TWO FULL WEEKS AGO!

And where is Klimmer? Is he helping the Chinese? Covering up for NASA? What is he hiding?

I suspect a nepharious plot.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Jan 18, 2019 - 07:36am PT
nepharious

I see what you did there...

LOL
originalpmac

Mountain climber
Timbers of Fennario
Jan 18, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
Have you ever wanted to put on a tinfoil just to see if it makes a difference? Oh, uh, neither have I.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Jan 18, 2019 - 01:19pm PT
"Have you ever wanted to put on a tinfoil just to see if it makes a difference?"


It does make a difference. People stop talking with you.
WBraun

climber
Jan 18, 2019 - 01:20pm PT
You already have a tinfoil hat one on .....
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Feb 7, 2019 - 09:05pm PT
Here is the Chinese lander, in a photo taken by NASA. Bracketed by the two little white arrows.
If you look closely, you can see Klimmer waving. In the background, of course, a parking stall for the ark.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Feb 7, 2019 - 09:58pm PT
We are going to know sooo much very soon:

Who killed JFK? Is there really a Deep State trying to take our country down for their own agenda and greed? Are Aliens already here (actually they have been here since the fall of satan)? Is there a massive Alien or Nephalim spaceship crashed on the backside of the Moon? Did JFK JR and his wife and her sister really get killed in a plane wreck on July 16, 1999, or were they killed by the Deep State, or did they have to allow the Deep State to think their assassination plan actually worked and allow HRC the New York State senate seat? Was 9-11 an inside job by the Deep State?

Hang in there ... we will all know soon ... hope ...

Where Are You Now?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQJanffOjA

[Click to View YouTube Video]


#WWG1WGA


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 8, 2019 - 07:39am PT
Traitorous humans are signaling the aliens. This obvious attempt, in Norway, to attract alien attention was recently caught on film from space. The perfidy of these abominable traitors is breath taking. Is there no way to stop them? Are we to simply become food for the Nephilim?

fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Feb 8, 2019 - 07:42am PT
The 'Deep State' runs google and youtube..... I'm going to guess that if such videos uncovered something real they'd be deleted immediately and the poster soon too(CO is everywhere! Check your alarms!). It's just piles of lies on top of disinformation campaigns with just the tiniest kernels of truth.

The truth won't be televised.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Feb 10, 2019 - 01:49pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 06:26am PT
Something good (at least I think it will be good) is about to happen and you should know about it before it takes place.

This is a powerful way to know the truth — real evidence that isn’t made-up and that demonstrates military intelligence “Q,” POTUS “Q+,” and JFK JR “R,” and “Qanons” are all in-fact very real and are working together to get our nation back from the Deep State. This is one of the primary functions of these Q drops. As Q says, “we/you are the news now,” since MSM is owned and operated mostly by the Deep State cabal. It’s a cyber war and it’s a spiritual war. It’s both.

We have to get our country back before we can know the truth about the many hidden secrets that “they” the Deep State simply do not want us, the good people of Earth, to know.

I have several ideas as to what is about to happen ...

Q said in a Q drop post #2903 on February 26, 2019 the following:

https://qmap.pub




A [-21] day countdown from 2-26-2019. That would be 3-18-2019, or 3-19-2019 if you don’t count the day of the announcement 2-26-2019. I happen to think it will be 3-18-2019 for many reasons. 18 = R. R is JFK Jr., within the Q military intelligence operation. 17 = Q in the alphabet.


Then John F. Kennedy Jr., (yes the real JFK JR. who is very much alive) tweeted the following on the same day 2-26-19, quoting Q (yes JFK JR. is officially on Tweeter and has been since April 2018):

https://mobile.twitter.com/John_F_Kennnedy




Note the 3 bright Suns in the image or 1 Sun and 2 reflections. I think this symbolizes: John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessett Kennedy (his wife), and Lauren Bessette (his sister-in-Law), all 3 who are very much alive. Also note the 3 n’s in Kennnedy. I believe this refers to the official tail registration of the Piper Saratoga plane he was supposed to be flying the evening of the crash July 16, 1999. The tail registration is N9253N. Note the 3N. Hence, the 3 N’s in Kennedy. Also the 3 N’s is another nod to JFK Jr., Carolyn, and Lauren. The 925 refers to his father JFK’s birthdate, 9-25-1917.



Like “black hats” or bad guys in our world and our government, “white hats” or good guys in our world and our government like to use code to hide meaning too. Q does this. It’s a cyber war between the “black hats” and the “white hats” who are both in all US federal agencies. And as I have said it is very much
a spiritual war also.





Here JFK JR. quotes Q and gives us encouragement with Bible scripture talking about putting on the full armor of G-d, to protect ourselves and our families both physically and spiritually:





Then JFK JR. tweeted this a little later the same day 2-26-19:




Note he says Big 3x to model what Q said. To emphasize. What is big, big, big? I think I know. Several ideas coming up.


Then JFK Jr. continues the countdown as a reminder:




Note the 81 + check mark is 18 backwards. 18 = R in the alphabet. R is JFK Jr in the Q military intelligence community. Countdown is -14 days from 3-5-19, and then he drops 81 which is really 18 written backwards, 18 referring to himself. I think JFK JR. is telling us he is coming out very publicly to let the world know he isn’t dead and he has been very active in the background to save our country (from the Deep State cabal) within the Q military intelligence community.


So what is happening on 3-18-19 or 3-19-19 by the latest? What is big, big, big?

My ideas:

1. They really didn’t die on 7-16-1999, but went into hiding within the military protection program since the Deep State wanted to assassinate JFK Jr., just as they did his father JFK. The 3 big things are the following 3 people are very much alive: John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn Bessett Kennedy, and his sister-in-law Lauren Bessette. Why? The truth of Q, and the Deep State they are battling will be known very very very publicly now. 3 big things. 3 people very much alive, and the world wants that very sad day to not have happened and reversed. We are going to get our wish in a very big, big, big way.

2. Or ... all the above, plus the declassifying of all the FISA warrants. The Deep State and the Democrats are in a panic over this. The world will finally know the truth. Plus one more big disclosure that I’m not sure about. Again 3 big things revealed.

3. I’m wrong and I didn’t read the tea leaves correctly and it’s 3 other big things I don’t know about ... but 3 big things happen all related to what Q is doing anyway. Doesn’t change the fact that 3 people are still alive and will eventually become public, just not 3-18-19.


Additional reasons why I think it will be #1 or #2:

There are significant particular days coming up in March ...

3-17-19: is Q day. Q = 17. Also it is St. Patrick’s Day. The Kennedy family is Irish. The Irish love the Kennedy’s.

3-18-19: is R day. R = 18 in the alphabet. R is JFK JR. within the Q military intelligence community. No better day to be revealed fully public than 3-18.

3-19-19: could be -21 day if not counting 2-26-19 as day 1.

3-20-19: The Vernal Equinox. The first day of Spring. New beginnings. A fresh new hope.

3-22-19: one of the most unholy days of the occult, and the Deep State is very very much into the occult. Skull & Bones 322. That refers to Genesis 3:22 and man becoming like gods. Man becomes his own god and turns his back on HaShem.

The -21 day countdown is 21/7 (7 is the number of perfection) = 3. The 3 represents all 3 people are still living. The 3 also represents the month of March. It’s their day of disclosure and coming out as being very much alive and doing so very publicly.

I do think that the MSM will hate this incredibly good news but they will not be able to ignore it. Game over for them. MSM have been lying for 20+ years about this event since July 16, 1999. All the press about this supposedly fatal tragedy has always insinuated that JFK JR. was an unqualified and irresponsible pilot. Quite the contrary. He is a very good pilot. Also they insinuate that he and Carolyn had marriage problems. Well that isn’t true. They didn’t like the press but they have been married now for about 20 years and have at least 3 teenagers now.

I think Q and R have to disclose this big, big, big news before the unholy occult day of 3-22. We (Q + Qanons) have to take it back from those who would do evil and do harm to us.

We will see.

Be a Patriot. Help fight to get our Country back from the Deep State.




(6 images to include)
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 8, 2019 - 06:35am PT
Klimmer is in a 'Deep State'...of delusion.

I like the 3N bit. Very rational.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Mar 8, 2019 - 08:39am PT
It must be exciting to be Klimmer..
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 8, 2019 - 08:51am PT
Marking the calendar. We'll see.

You guys who dis Klimmer... FU. Let people have their realities. There is nothing constructive to it. Discussion, providing contrary fact, etc. That is good. But being an azz... why? When you see something wild, just look at it. You don't have to agree with it. Is it a threat to you? It's like lynching gays in the 60's. Intellectual lynch mob. KKK of irregular thought. Klimmer is off the leash. It's a beautiful thing to behold. I love to see this thread.

While I do not blindly agree with the presentation here, I like to stay in touch with the alternate realities floating around. The mainstream is definitely full of lies. We see it every day. What is truth? That which you can see for yourself.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 8, 2019 - 09:43am PT
Ah, numerology!!! I'm going with #1, 7-16-1999. 7 is seven, 1+6=7, 1+9+9+9=28, which is 7+7+7+7, so now we have 7-7-(7+7+7+7). 7+7+7+7=28, but 2+8=10. Now we have 7-7-10. But 0 counts for nothing, so we have 7-7-1. 7-1=6, so we get 6-6-1.

But this took 7 iterations, and 7-1=6. Therefore 7-16-1999 must, when decoded by numerology, be 6-6-6. My god, the number of the beast!!!!

The end is neigh, repent sinners.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 09:53am PT
I’ve been wondering for quite a while - is there a nefarious network at work amongst watchmakers? Have you ever noticed that the vast majority of ads show watches with the 8th as the date? Check it out. Maybe they’re just appealing to the Chinese for whom 8 is the lucky number.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 8, 2019 - 11:52am PT
Spider, you had me going for a minute...more like 45 seconds. [Laughing]
i-b-goB

Social climber
Nutty
Mar 8, 2019 - 12:21pm PT
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 8, 2019 - 01:16pm PT
The internet isn't a mysterious place if you've got state sponsored money to monitor and track it's usage. Nothing gets posted anywhere for long without someone knowing exactly where it came from. It's tedious work but not really that complicated. "Q" would be routed out and removed with great prejudice. The servers that host it's messages would be flooded and disabled within seconds.

Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Mar 8, 2019 - 01:19pm PT
I'm not sure whether to say
Golleee!
or
Shazam!

please advise.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 8, 2019 - 01:36pm PT
And, make sure you check out the Twitter feed of @Charles_Mannnsonnn! (Three 'n's.)

He's the real deal!
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Mar 8, 2019 - 02:20pm PT
Let people have their realities.

Like believing that God wanted trump to be POTUS?

Hokay...
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 04:06pm PT
Matthew 17:17 (KJV)
“Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.”

There sure are lots of “Doubting Thomases” at ST.

Lol ...



There is the real Vincent Fusca who looks a little bit like JFK JR. And there is the real JFK JR. who looks a little bit like Vincent Fusca. JFK JR. uses Vincent Fusca as a safe cover. You can tell when it’s JFK JR., and not Vincent Fusca. JFK JR., looks like a much younger Vincent Fusca.



BOMBSHELL! Trump CUES JFK JR ! JFK JR is Alive !! We KNOW what Vincent Fusca writes at Trump Rally!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1kgIs-qxXDQ

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Part 1- CAUGHT Carolyn Bessette ADMITS JR is TOURING AS VINCENT FUSCA with Trump! JFK Jr 100% Alive!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T372k-LLq1w

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Part 2-TRUTHBOMB! Trump Q's JFK Jr -PA-R-CIFIC & NAFTA-R at Trump Rally WATCH & BELIEVE THEY R ALIVE
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gponFLI87Gc

[Click to View YouTube Video]


Second only to the most interesting and best selling Book ever in all history around the world — The Holy Bible ... when this incredible story is completed and out in the public fully it will be a massive best seller true story and an Oscar winning movie someday. It truly is an incredible true story. Absolutely Fascinating.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 8, 2019 - 04:20pm PT
I long to return to the massive ark on the moon discussion.
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Mar 8, 2019 - 04:22pm PT
^^^^

the Space Force will clear that up for us..
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 04:28pm PT
When the Deep State is taken down, we will have access to many secrets they do not want us to know.

Patience.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 8, 2019 - 05:24pm PT
There sure are lots of “Doubting Thomases” at ST.

Naw, Klimmer2.0… Just a bunch of people doubting Glenn Simpson.

Version 2.0 ain't an improvement. Maybe it's just another insufficiently-tested public beta release?
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 8, 2019 - 05:43pm PT
One more video of truth and inspiration ...

How it happened, the reason he had to fake his death. JFK JR’s voice on the evening of July 16, 1999, calling in as a Coast Guard personnel, and his voice now on the well known YouTube video regarding “Q and The Plan.” Their voices are compared. Seems the same.

Then great footage of JFK JR flying his first solo on a powered parachute/paraglider. Went on to purchase one as well as a tandem wing and and made many flights over a few years, before July 16, 1999.

JFK JR., is a fellow adventurer and fellow pilot. So very cool.

I fly without a motor ... I’m a free-flight paraglider pilot. There is just something magical about climbing, skiing, flying paragliders, SUP, and SCUBA diving I just can’t get enough of. Heaven on Earth truly.

I AM A US CIVILIAN SEAL (not to be confused with the actual US NAVY SEALS, Lol).
We should start a club. No dues and no officers. Just people who like to adventure on Sea, Air, and Land. It would make a great logo and shirt!


RED PILL AWAKEN: NEW Q Sent Me + JON JON/JFK J.R VOICE ENHANCeMENT + ENJOY THE SHOW Q
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=InteCMswg8k

[Click to View YouTube Video]



Edit:

Rob don’t be a hater. Sorry you are so upset at the fact that you’re very famous relative John Muir was a very strong believer in G-d, His son Jesus (Yeshua), and often quoted The Bible in many of his famous writings. He was truly a Prophet of G-d in many ways celebrating G-d’s creation and wonders of the natural world.

You obviously didn’t get his same faith. However, there is always hope.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 8, 2019 - 09:55pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 8, 2019 - 10:14pm PT
Ghost, my man! I suspect Captain Haddock has had a few. This, however, seems to be both moon and climbing related, a two-fer.


Klimmer2.0 or whatever, you're not the real deal and dishonor our great mentor. Desist.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 9, 2019 - 12:20am PT
When the Deep State is taken down, ..

It wouldn’t be very deep then, would it?
dirtbag

climber
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:54am PT
It’s all fun and games, until the kooks take up arms, or teach kids.
Robb

Social climber
Cat Box
Mar 9, 2019 - 08:18am PT
This is verging on screenplay worthy!!!
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 9, 2019 - 01:28pm PT
For a pocket full of mumbles, such are promises
All lies and jests
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest

Glenn, sorry to hear that even your famous relative Homer Simpson doesn't subscribe to your unhinged, wackadoodle crackpot conspiracy theories and—frankly—your unreal beliefs. Neither do any of the rest of us…

You really should tone this nonsense down; it's no longer amusing. You have managed to build the digital equivalent of a colossal monument to stupendous idiocy. G_d, it's embarrassing! In case you hadn't noticed, literally no one takes you seriously. After your latest 'contributions,' now even more people are laughing at Glenn Simpson2.0.

And, in your case—it seems—I'm afraid there is no hope…
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 03:08pm PT
Quoting graniteclimber from 2011:

Klimmer would like us to believe that he is modest high school science teacher by the name of Glenn Simpson.

But who is "Glenn Simpson" really?

What is his real agenda?

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 9, 2019 - 03:22pm PT
What is his real agenda?

Can you really be that simple? He has been dropping major clues, particularly in his recent posts about Q, Qanon, R and JFK Jr. How could you have missed them.

Think about it. First we have Q, the mastermind military intelligence specialist. Then we have R, who Klimmer assures us is the non-dead JFK Jr.

But what comes after R? No, it's not a trick question. After R, comes S.

And what is the first letter of Klimmer's real last name?

I think it's pretty clear that Q has, all along, just been a front for the movement centered around R. And, with what we've now learned, it should be obvious that the real mastermind behind this incredible effort to end our slavery at the hands of the deep state is...

...that's right: S.

So be prepared for the big day to come not on the 17th (Q) or on the 18th (R), but on the 19th (S is the nineteenth letter of the alphabet).
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 9, 2019 - 04:23pm PT
But who is "Glenn Simpson" really?

And—given the fact that he 'outed' himself thirteen years ago—on April Fools Day no less, how much of any of this are we willing to believe?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=174560&msg=174578#msg174578
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 05:56pm PT
Holy Shit!!!
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:02pm PT
Why bother with it then Rob? Let it go. If you think me nuts then ignore me. Simple.



We now know more ... look at all the specific Q drops today on 3-9-2019:

https://qmap.pub/


I still think it will be more than just unsealing the indictments, and unsealing the FISA warrants. I think it will be 3 people who many people charise, who we once all thought were dead and are now very much alive. At least I hope so. That will be happy good news the 3 of them revealing themselves to be very much alive very publicly.

On the same day of bringing the pain, it will also be an amazing day of joy. People will understand the connection very simply. A big day of awakening.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:10pm PT
Will no one rid me of this turbulent Klimmer?

You reveal things no man should know. The Moon Ark hath eaten your brain. The Q worms slither and grope for their bit of rotten flesh. Woe the Ides of March!!!!
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:13pm PT
Some people are awake and pay attention. Some people are not.

I’m awake.

Wait and see.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:27pm PT
Kennedy, Tupac and Freddie Mercury.......and Kennedy

Think about it
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:29pm PT
I’m awake.

Get some sleep.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 9, 2019 - 06:38pm PT
Timid,

Don’t shoot the messenger, and don’t try to make any accusations that are not true, nor will ever be true.

Don’t project your bad and wrong intentions onto me.

You may not like the message or the news, but I’m letting you know before it happens. Now you’ll know. You can prepare yourself emotionally and psychologically.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 07:00pm PT
So if all this 'Q' sh#t is so secret, why is there all this 'information' on YouTube et al? No, apply a tool you, as a 'science' teacher, should be aware of and worship. What would Mr. Occam think? How would his razor cut? Are the Nephilim still out there? Are you still dating your daughter? Are you still a 'teacher'?

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 9, 2019 - 07:16pm PT
Ah... wait a minute.

That picture above...

Maybe "S" isn't Klimmer after all. And maybe "S" is not the top of the pyramid.

After "S" comes "T". And look at that picture -- Snowy and Tintin. S and T.

And, because I've learned from Klimmer to look more deeply into these seemingly innocuous images, I'm troubled by the fact that Tintin is dipping his cigarette into his tea. That's surely not an accident... It has to be a clue... But to what?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 07:29pm PT
Ghost, you are deep; I bow to you. However, investigation has shown that is not a cigarette, but rather an opium joint. Tintin is attempting to subdue the Oriental looking Q fellow via fumes. This is the effect the opium fumes had on Haddock. More to come.


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 07:51pm PT
Ghost, I've heard rumors (via confidential sources) that there may be Q forces marshaling off the west coast of Vancouver Island. Condition Theta; take care, be safe, and tell no one except listed.

Edited to add: Damn, Klimmer's right! Here are some pictures of the madam from the spa massage sex chain in Florida with some pretty high officials from our government. Notice her little 'broach'.


We're f*#king doomed...
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 9, 2019 - 08:04pm PT
So assuming one is confused here but wants into the club of the "in the know," where should one start Klimmer? This all seems very complex. Would it be best to just listen to Donald Trump and maybe not try to tease it all out for oneself?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 9, 2019 - 08:27pm PT
...just listen to Donald Trump and maybe not try to tease it all out for oneself?

I suggest LSD and drink, strong drink.

That's scary Jim. Speaking of Q,,,

[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
Mar 10, 2019 - 01:09pm PT


Note

THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IT IS NOT TRUE

“There’s no evidence this is not true,” an animated Hotz told a crowd at his SXSW talk on Friday, aptly titled “Jailbreaking the Simulation” and billed on the festival’s website as an exploration of whether breaking out of a simulated universe means we can “meet God” and kill him. “It’s easy to imagine things that are so much smarter than you and they could build a cage you wouldn’t even recognize.”

“THERE’S NO EVIDENCE THIS IS NOT TRUE.”
The theory, known widely as the simulation hypothesis, posits that life on Earth, and by extension the Solar System and even the universe itself, is potentially a computer simulation, either a video game or some other form of entertainment for advanced lifeforms or possibly some type of AI-guided simulation of ancestral life created by a far-future version of humanity. It’s a popular proposition that has, in recent years, been publicly entertained by big names in tech, like Elon Musk, and has been more seriously considered and unpacked by prominent philosophers like Nick Bostrom.
Robb

Social climber
Cat Box
Mar 10, 2019 - 03:52pm PT
It's all becoming clear to me now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbEUhtZVBNY
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 10, 2019 - 05:30pm PT
It's an ex-parrot!

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 10, 2019 - 07:02pm PT
zBrown, Jim, now you're getting it!!! Go with the flow and damn the logic:

Q exists. Until you can prove otherwise, I will continue to believe that it does.
WBraun

climber
Mar 10, 2019 - 07:06pm PT
You guys are as st00pid as this ark on the moon horsesh!t .....
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 11, 2019 - 06:41pm PT
Fun with sciencey-sounding stuff!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 11, 2019 - 07:19pm PT
(tseretni fo tub) t!hsesroh noom eht on kre sith sa dip00ts sa rea syug ouY
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2019 - 07:24pm PT
I'm still pretty concerned about the Nephilim and alien moon invasion even though Klimmer seems to have dropped the ball. Fortunately the US Navy is on the case and is developing defensive strategies. Thanks US Navy and American tax payers!!!

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 11, 2019 - 07:32pm PT
I've been much better about everything, once the staples came out.



I really don't remember much between then & when the saucer appeared.


Heidi says nothing happened, but we don't go there any more.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2019 - 07:57pm PT
Ah, the old alien probe... wonder why they do that?
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 11, 2019 - 08:05pm PT
I'm still pretty concerned about the Nephilim

You worry too much. The Bible tells us God drowned most of them in the flood. I was the whole reason for the flood.

A few made it through as the sons of Anak in Canaan, but like many hybrids, they were apparently sterile. No grandsons are mentioned.
David killed the best of them with a slingshot.. unless you think that was an extraordinarily lucky shot, they aren’t too hard to bring down.

And Ezekiel 32 tells us the rest are trapped in Sheol with their swords and shields. Even if they come back, we have better tools to do them in than slingshots. Hollow points will go through a Bronze Age shield like butter.

Some of our tools even have bump stocks.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 11, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
Ah, the old alien probe... wonder why they do that?

It's a translation issue. The aliens were drawn to our solar system with the goal of exploring Uranus. But their translation software isn't perfect, and...

...well, you get the picture.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2019 - 08:58pm PT
Ouch.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 11, 2019 - 08:58pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2019 - 09:00pm PT
I was the whole reason for the flood

Holy sh#t Lorenzo, I had no idea! No point in holding it back I guess. Did this have anything to do with the ... probe?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 11, 2019 - 09:06pm PT
(tseretni fo tub) t!hsesroh noom eht on kre sith sa dip00ts sa rea syug ouY

.esuom eno dooG .reraelc semoceb won tI.
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 12, 2019 - 02:39am PT
Holy sh#t Lorenzo, I had no idea! No point in holding it back I guess. Did this have anything to do with the ... probe?

Nah, I think that comes later.

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 2:10 tells us the spirit does the probing, he had an episode of his own on the road to Damascus. ( Acts 9) Made him temporarily blind.

”for the Spirit probes all things, even the profoundest depths of God”
It seems nobody is safe.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:15am PT
Ya, know, even if the President or some other great respected speaker came out and said, yes, it's true, all the UFO guys are right. The majority of the population would not believe it or not care.

The fact that there are evil people pulling strings and screwing up our civilization is a fact. Each year that goes by they loose a little more of their grip.

The truth is "out there." It's actually easily available. You can push it in peoples faces but they will just push it back.

And that might be good. People should be more observant and less suggestable.
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:16am PT
It's almost like a majority of people perceive the President to lack credibility or to be unworthy of respect...or to be great. :-)

I'd be curious as to what one perceives to be the "truth" here S-Savage... I am so confused about the multiple lines of "truth" being posited to exist. Should I just trust the President and put my faith in something? Is there an ark on the moon?
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 12, 2019 - 01:09pm PT
"I don't owe you a debate about things that are objectively false."
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 12, 2019 - 02:03pm PT
Objectivity is overrated.

Ever been to a basketball game?
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 12, 2019 - 05:01pm PT

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 12, 2019 - 05:31pm PT
klimmer! I hear you duuueeede!


But, it's coming in as a high-frequency buzzing.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2019 - 06:06pm PT
Fritz, remove the antenna; you'll feel better...

Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 12, 2019 - 07:21pm PT
winemaker! Yere coming in strong!





Maybe??? I'm on the rong frequency for klimmer?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 12, 2019 - 07:25pm PT
Maybe??? I'm on the rong frequency for klimmer?

I think your staples have been picking up transmissions on the alien communication channels. If only you hadn't thrown away that decoder ring you had when you were ten years old, we'd finally have proof about what is going on on the other side of the moon.
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:39pm PT
Here's some upgraded state of the art gear, I tried out this winter.



Nope! I'm still not on the same frequency as Klimmer.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 12, 2019 - 08:40pm PT
Fritz, do you have any metal fillings? Pull them out man, pull them out right now!!! Use pliers. vise grips, or a torch but get them out!!! Gonna have a glass for you right now. Hope you survive.

Ghost, NSA broke that code years ago. Prime numbers are now the key.

Fritz, that is scary looking. What's the deal?
tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Mar 13, 2019 - 04:52am PT


I still think it will be more than just unsealing the indictments, and unsealing the FISA warrants. I think it will be 3 people who many people charise, who we once all thought were dead and are now very much alive. At least I hope so. That will be happy good news the 3 of them revealing themselves to be very much alive very publicly.

On the same day of bringing the pain, it will also be an amazing day of joy. People will understand the connection very simply. A big day of awakening.






These two went to the same con school. Same phrases, spelling mistakes, education level, vague statements that if you want to believe could work in any situation, etc. It is the fortune tellers of the 21st century. Always a market for this among unoccupied minds.



And yeah, pull out your teeth with metal in them. And while you are at it, pull out the ones without metal as we restore them with complex chemicals like BPA that the government has told us to use to control people. Even gold fillings have chemicals mixed in. Give me the gold. It is bad for you and 3 of them will reveal themselves very much alive very publicly on the same day as bringing the pain(for you since your teeth get ripped out), which will also be an amazing day of joy (for me since I get the gold). A big day of awakening eh?



Are you starting to understand the connection more simply?
Keith Reed

climber
Johnson county TX
Mar 14, 2019 - 10:21am PT
No dude I checked.
Lil Jon Jon is still dead.

Sad
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 14, 2019 - 11:58am PT


Lil Jon is alive and well at 48 AFAIK
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 14, 2019 - 04:18pm PT
I’m with the cowpoke. The “cremation” was a hoax.

He’s now an albino monk. Something about a hokey pail - or something.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 14, 2019 - 04:28pm PT
The hoax was not the work of The flames, nossir. There have been rumors, but that's all it is. Swear to the Gouda Buddha.

The Jon-Jon mystery became less so earlier today.

Also, news about the president has come to light, but has not been confirmed.

The details are here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2607974&msg=3182755#msg3182755
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 14, 2019 - 05:53pm PT
Fritz wtf did you do to your head? (Before the probes were inserted)
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 19, 2019 - 07:37am PT
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 19, 2019 - 08:02am PT
So what is happening on 3-18-19 or 3-19-19 by the latest? What is big, big, big?

A few pages back, Klimmer said that either yesterday (18 March) or today (19 March) was the absolute latest that a massive reveal would take place about Q and the still-alive John Kennedy Jr.

True, the 19th still has 16 hours to run, but things are looking pretty normal so far.
WBraun

climber
Mar 19, 2019 - 08:06am PT
The massive reveal is already ongoing.

You fools ...... HAVE BEEN OWNED
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Mar 19, 2019 - 08:35am PT
F*#k, we’re doomed. TFPU.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Mar 19, 2019 - 09:20am PT
3/19 on the Niphlem calendar....
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 20, 2019 - 09:32pm PT
Well, it's March 20 now, only a couple of hours from 21. Almost a full day past Klimmer's deadline for the earth-shaking revelation of...

...well, whatever it was of, it was definitely going to be earth-shaking.

But, when I hiked up to the top of one of the local highpoints, and looked out over the view of the ocean below and the peaceful mountains across the strait, nothing appeared to have been shaken.

Klimmer? You out there? What happened? What did I miss?

Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Mar 21, 2019 - 07:05am PT
In a world of abundant meaning and majesty,
Fools would rather tickle their navels in the dark.


rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 21, 2019 - 07:06am PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 21, 2019 - 07:54am PT
I think Klimmer2.0 was 'taken up'. Klimmer, we hardly knew ya. My numerological calculations are clear: the ultimate sum of 3-19-19 = 5. Converting Klimmer to alphabetic numbers (11-12-9-13-13-5-18) and applying numerological theory we arrive at 9. Converting 9-5 to letters yields 'IF'. What more is needed?

Edited to add: Profoundly, applying the 2.0 multiplier to Klimmer yields the exact same result, 9!!!
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 21, 2019 - 08:17am PT
FLIP FlLOP's on to something

Fuzzy Navel
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Mar 21, 2019 - 06:07pm PT
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2019 - 03:13pm PT
Lot has happened. Not exactly what I was hoping for but lots happened still. I knew that was a possibility. Learned a great deal about what Q does and why. Very smart and brilliant on Q’s part.

“Q” military intelligence, “Q+“ POTUS, and “R” JFK JR., are all on the job.

Will have to go over it all from 3-14 until now 3-22-19.

I will get back. Busy.


If you don’t think this is real ... may I suggest you watch this video that proves President Trump is a major part (Q+) as well as the military and military intelligence (Q). Watch what President Trump does with his hand just before he talks about “The Calm Before The Storm,” taunting the press to ask what he means by the calm before the storm?

It’s very real ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=79D2YXv5Me0

[Click to View YouTube Video]


They are on the job getting our country back from the corrupt and treasonous Deep State. They are literally saving our Nation. I’m happy about that.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 22, 2019 - 05:19pm PT
Now I'm scared. Q is probably going to arrest me, as well as the rest of you doubters, and throw us in camps. What to do? Me, I've go 25 cases of wine in the basement; if anyone needs a safe house with a good supply please don't hesitate. Ghost seems well out of it, except for those landings on Vancouver Island. I guess my only question is, if this is some huge secret conspiracy, why do they post it on YouTube?

Klimmer2.0, as Monty Python might say 'You're a loony".
Fritz

Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
Mar 22, 2019 - 07:39pm PT
Winemaker!

KlimmerII sees & knows things.

I normally have to drink a fair amount, before that happens.



And, there's no doubt he's "gifted!"

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 22, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
Y’all were wrong about Mueller so why do ya think yer right about Klimmer?
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 22, 2019 - 10:55pm PT
Ask yourself why was the Mueller report finally, finally ... ok finally ... (man have we waited forever for what we already knew — no collusion) ... given to AG Barr on 3-22-19? Dates are significant to the Deep State.

322 is an absolutely unholy evil day to the Deep State who are very much into the occult. Skull and Bones 322. What were they trying to do? Put a hex on it or something? Were they trying to put a hex on the Trump Administration? Can’t do that to G-d’s anointed. No can do.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wftpVHljfHI

[Click to View YouTube Video]



And then late on this Friday evening too. What’s up with that? Trying to hide the no result report?

Now AG Barr will make it very public. No collusion. It was a witch hunt all along.

Now the FISA Declass can occur. Now comes the pain ...


Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 22, 2019 - 11:35pm PT
Ask yourself why was the Mueller report finally, finally ... ok finally ... (man have we waited forever for what we already knew — no collusion) ... given to AG Barr on 3-22-19. Dates are significant to the Deep State.

I’ll bite. It was a Friday. He wanted to be sure he got paid for a full week.

Or:

A) to commemorate the Jamestown massacre in 1622
Or
B) to commemorate the passing of the Stamp act in1765 that led to a revolution.


But maybe not. The first France -England rugby Union match was played on this day.


I’m pretty sure Muller has never used the word collusion. That’s Trumps description of his crimes.

As long as you are asking questions, ask yourself why his lawyer and campaign manager are in jail and cooperating.

The real stuff is going to happen when the financial sh#t hits the fan after Don is out of office. I’ll bet money there are sealed indictments waiting.

What do the numbers for Deutchebank add up to in your numerology?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 24, 2019 - 09:16pm PT
I am still confused. I suppose I had better just trust Donnie and/or Klimmer's youtube links. Thanks Klimmer2.0!
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Mar 24, 2019 - 09:29pm PT
Space Force is gonna sort all this sh#t out.

Damn good thing Donald Trump has been working tirelessly to root out the deep state, don't you all feel relieved?
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Mar 24, 2019 - 09:40pm PT
So what you're saying is that we kinda missed the boat with Hale-Bopp but Space Force and Q (does this thing ever even upgrade to like Q🌭 or anything?) together can help us titrate the proper Komet Koolaid to deliver us from the Deep State. I get it now.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 25, 2019 - 06:20pm PT
Atual unretouched shot by a relative of mine of a moon monkey sending.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 25, 2019 - 06:52pm PT
Just see, the Mooned Monkeys took the torch from the Stoned Monkeys who in turned took it from the Stoned Masters, and lo they were the greatest crankaloons yet!

Well, yeah, but crankaloons are just gross materialists who engage in mental speculation. So being the greatest crankaloon on the Moon, or on Mars for that matter, is meaningless.

It will not be until they start exploring Uranus that they become one with the ascended master.
TLP

climber
Mar 25, 2019 - 07:24pm PT
Yo, mouse: and your image PROVES it because due to relativity effects, when they get new shoes they come from 35 years ago on Earth. Damn, Einstein was cool.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 25, 2019 - 07:29pm PT
Yeah, that monkey's a crankin' loon. Ya "nailed" it, DMT. Dunno 'bout the shoes. They were new thirty-five years ago. All I know is what my cuz told me.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 26, 2019 - 07:24am PT
Port

Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden 🇸🇪
Mar 26, 2019 - 11:49am PT
Braunini

Big Wall climber
cupertino
Mar 26, 2019 - 01:34pm PT
Klimmer, let me be the first one to thank you for this unfiltered and intimate look into the world of untreated psychosis.

So, thanks I guess.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Mar 26, 2019 - 01:50pm PT
`
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Mar 26, 2019 - 02:37pm PT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Mar 26, 2019 - 08:59pm PT
I'd change that to 'The chickens will come home to roast very soon'. One letter can make a big difference.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Mar 26, 2019 - 09:17pm PT
It's not the chickens you should fear.

When the dark days come, it is the cows that will be terrifying...

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Mar 26, 2019 - 10:01pm PT
Who are you trying to diddle, hey?

That's just a nursery story and besides, the cow did not land on the moon, but jumped over it.

Just sayin', y'know.. .
Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon
Mar 27, 2019 - 12:28pm PT
When these eyes are out, you become the sheep.

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Mar 27, 2019 - 01:45pm PT
Nibiru.

Pleiades.
Robb

Social climber
Cat Box
Mar 31, 2019 - 07:54am PT
This should help.
https://denver.craigslist.org/vnn/d/aurora-the-antichrist-is-here/6824752839.html
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 1, 2019 - 09:39pm PT
I've been doing some research, as well as taking a contemplative time out to clear my brain which has been somewhat fuzzy, and discovered that it's actually the damn Canooks!!! Those devious backstabbing loon lovers are actually the infiltrating alien UFOers. Video evidence here:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Canada, we used to love ya, but we ain't gonna take it no more. Ghost, I suspect you knew all about this .... abomination. I'm disappointed in you but strangely uplifted to know who the true enemy is. More to follow.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 2, 2019 - 07:48am PT
Robb, that shit's got to be shared on a WHOLE DIFFERENT LEVEL.


I find this item particularly interestinging:

Sir Stanley Morgan is the man who inspired the book "heart of darkness." This book inspired Stanley Kubrick's movie "Apocalypse Now." Sir Stanley Morgan was born on January 28, 1841. Exactly 49 years later the Birdman was born in Seattle.

But if you troll, you should use a believable lure.

The man in question is not sir Stanley Morgan but Sir Henry Morton Stanley.
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
Apr 2, 2019 - 01:52pm PT
Wow....

I posted this photoshop of Klimmer which I scoured off the interwebs almost 9 years ago on the start of this crazy thread!!!

Here it is again....the man, the myth, the legend....

Klimmer!

Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Apr 2, 2019 - 03:06pm PT
Ghost, I suspect you knew all about this .... abomination. I'm disappointed in you but strangely uplifted to know who the true enemy is.

Project Y.

Look it up and you'll find that it was abandoned due to the craft having stability issues. But if you believe that, you'll probably also believe that there is no ark on the moon, no nephilim, etc etc.

Just keep on believing, that's what we want you to do. When you finally understand the truth, it will be too late.

WBraun

climber
Apr 2, 2019 - 03:11pm PT
When you finally understand the truth, it will be too late.

You all been too late for the past 50 years or more.

Yer all insane .....
divad

Trad climber
wmass
Apr 2, 2019 - 03:21pm PT
Since the duck took a ride on that Back To The Future converted DeLorean, he has been way ahead of the rest of us..
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Apr 2, 2019 - 09:39pm PT
Look it up and you'll find that it was abandoned due to the craft having stability issues. But if you believe that, you'll probably also believe that there is no ark on the moon, no nephilim, etc etc.

So. if I understand your 'Canadian' talk you claim that since the scheme failed for 'stability' issues (mind or brain matter?) there is no consequence? If the plot fails, there is no plot? If the plan is defective, there is no plan? No, my friend, that is not how the world works: If you plot and plan to conquer Earth and fail the attempt was still made! As a great sage once said, "Ut victor spolia et omnia", and this still holds true! Damnaret verterunt exterorum & anas fumant cigarettes.

Edited to add:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Nuff said Ghost.... Quit covering up this sh#t.
rmuir

Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
Apr 5, 2019 - 10:00am PT
Remember kids… Don't shoot at aliens!

I wonder if God will be repealing ObamaCare too?

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Apr 5, 2019 - 10:09am PT
To paraphrase Eric Beck (or was it Steve Roper?):

On either end of the political spectrum there are complete nut jobs.

Gotta feel bad for them though, the world as it is isn't fantastic enough, and so they're desperate to have some sort of something to believe.
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 5, 2019 - 10:23am PT
GoD has a pre-existing condition
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Apr 9, 2019 - 12:15am PT
Must be something out there,
Must be something out there.
Alien abduction,
Alien abduction,
Take me up in a space ship,
Hook me up with a space trip.

They tell me to trust no one,
They tell me to trust no one,
The martians are coming
Clem, put away that shotgun,
The fancy lights will make me blind,
I think they want a drink of my 'shine.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Apr 9, 2019 - 05:20am PT
What am I tone deaf?

Was that ever out of place !

never more out of place!

it may be lost
or I may bring it bax

mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Apr 10, 2019 - 06:59am PT
A sober moment.

https://www.ripleys.com/weird-news/moon-junk/

At least there are no bodies up there, like on Everest.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Apr 25, 2019 - 09:49am PT
This thread still exists! (though highly fragmented)

Always good to keep up with the fringe. Odds are something as wild as what is on here will come to pass.

Great entrainment value.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Apr 25, 2019 - 09:15pm PT
Aliens, ahoy! Navy developing guidelines on reporting UFO sightings

https://www.navytimes.com/off-duty/military-culture/2019/04/25/aliens-ahoy-navy-developing-guidelines-on-reporting-ufo-sightings/
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Apr 26, 2019 - 08:58am PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuLI6B7AU-M
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Apr 26, 2019 - 09:04am PT
kunlun, do they have separate rules for sub sightings?
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Apr 26, 2019 - 04:01pm PT
I'm glad that this very long thread over the years has survived as crazy and wonderful as it is.

Sorry my images saved at Photobucket don't show up now. They are charging for hosting the images. Just not gonna happen. I do have all the images saved though. Maybe Photobucket will come back to reality again sometime.

I would hope that the entire ST forum can be archived. I also hope that it continues. It's been such a great resource for great climbing history and lore and so much more. This thread attests to that. Kind of weird and wonderful ... I know.


So in that spirit here is a great song from Sting ...

I love this song. Helped me greatly in my life. Sad and happy all at the same time. Sting goes country western and has a hoe-down with aliens and boards a spaceship and more. How appropriate :))


Sting - I'm So Happy I Can't Stop Crying (Official Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI8khooPyJk

[Click to View YouTube Video]




fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Apr 26, 2019 - 04:41pm PT
Great song.... I never saw the video before, how appropriate in such a strange way.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 17, 2019 - 03:25pm PT
Since ST as an active forum is going the way of the DoDo bird, I thought it would be nice to see this infamous thread get bumped again.

I have really enjoyed this thread over the years. I know its wild and weird but it does make you think. I've tried to include many great useable links also. Learned a lot here and from many posting to it that actually really thought about it and cared. Lot of people who know things from the inside have showed up and gave their wisdom and insight. I have really appreciated that.

No doubt something is up. Something real is occurring that we can't all yet explain. The evidence is fairly overwhelming now with ,many nations disclosing what they know. Some people see further than others.

If there is a massive mothership "Ark" (Lol, that name was given just to poke you guys) on the backside of the Moon related to Apollo 20 mission (???) then eventually we will know. There is a veritable Moon race going on right now. Many nations want to get to the Moon and we are going back before we go onto Mars. That's the plan. We also want to put a space station in orbit around the Moon that we can utilize like the ISS.


I'll repost this song by Sting once again. It's so appropriate ...

Sting - I'm So Happy I Can't Stop Crying (Official Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI8khooPyJk


[Click to View YouTube Video]
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
May 18, 2019 - 03:03pm PT
Klimmer this was one weird ride. Thank you!
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 18, 2019 - 03:10pm PT
I want to know when are we as humans gonna start pulling off first ascents on the Moon and then on Mars? When is NASA going to put climbers into space and land them on planetary bodies to climb?

That’s of vital importance. Well at least to climbers. Mankind, we are meant to explore and to do amazing things.
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 22, 2019 - 08:13am PT
This just in ... minutes ago ...

Just as ST forum, "the Taco," the climber's virtual campfire, is going to close and slip into archive. Not a moment to late ... Lol



Pentagon finally admits it investigates UFOs

https://www.foxnews.com/science/pentagon-finally-admits-it-investigates-ufos


The existence of the AATIP was revealed in 2017, along with a 33-second DOD video that shows an airborne object being chased by two Navy jets off the coast of San Diego in 2004.

At the time, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) took credit for arranging $22 million in annual funding for the AATIP, telling the New York Times that it was “one of the good things I did in my congressional service.”

Reid’s home state of Nevada hosts the top-secret military installation known as “Area 51,” long rumored to be the storehouse for an alien craft that crashed in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947.

Reid, through a spokeswoman, declined to comment.


Edit:

Monolith you are one solid wall of rock. Nothing gets through. Lol
monolith

climber
state of being
May 22, 2019 - 08:35am PT
And no doubt, JFK jr is at the controls of a ufo now and will destroy the deep state, right Klimmer?

....and every conspiracy theory flows right into your open brain, Klimmer.

And you know Glenn Simpson is gonna keep bumping his threads till the end.

Wow Wow Wow
Wow Wow Wow
Wow Wow Wow
brotherbbock

climber
So-Cal
May 22, 2019 - 01:02pm PT
I'm gonna miss this thread the most...

May the nephilim continue bless you Klimmer.

I'll see you and jfk jr next time I go paddle boarding.

Goodnight sweet prince...
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 28, 2019 - 01:27pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3200802/New-UFO-threat

Lorenzo

Trad climber
Portland Oregon

Topic Author's Original Post - May 27, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

Klimmer, have at it.




Hey, we're not done here!!! Good job Lorenzo. 2 thumbs up.


‘Wow, What Is That?’ Navy Pilots Report Unexplained Flying Objects
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share


Great interesting story actually :))
Klimmer2.0

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
May 31, 2019 - 10:21am PT
I hate to the see the ST Forum, "The Taco," the virtual climber's campfire go out ... but it comes to an end sadly :(

I've enjoyed it over the years ...


My first post on ST:

Klimmer
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 22, 2003 - 03:40am PT

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/17754/While-I-was-Busy-flying-Paradise-was-Ransacked-and-Ruined


I'm sure we will all find another virtual climber's campfire home soon.

Hopefully Chris and RJ have enough common sense to archive the entire ST Forum, pictures included, so that it can be used as a research tool. Too much history has been posted here to let it all go away ... like tears in rain.

Please include the images in the archive. Or at least somewhere off-line so people can contact you for these historical images. Save them all please in your complete maximum security off-line archive. "Build a wall" around it to save it all. Lol. Thank you.
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